Discussions

News: HP Launches New App. Server and Web Services Offerings

  1. HP this week rolled out a whole suite of new application server and web services offerings, bringing it closer to offerings from other vendors. The offering constist in the free HP Application Server 8 (a J2EE compliant, totally re-written version of the older Bluestone server), HPMS (HP's JMS server), a process manager interaction product, a UDDI registry, and a Web Services transactioning product based on BTP.

    This news comes from HP's recent press release as well as a conversation I had with Bob Bickel, GM of HP Middleware.

    It has been a very active week in our industry. With HP, IONA and Silverstream all announcing major new platform offerings...

    More interesting tidbits of information:

    HP Application Server and Reason Why its Free:
    ---------------------------------------------
     - make the J2EE compliant (and the HP App. Server) more pervasive
       - the app. server is bundled with Apache Cocoon, Struts, Xerces, Tomcat and HP's own servlet engine
     - charge for additional products on top of the server (ranging from $1000-$5000)
       - HP will charge for things like support, 2phase commit, durable JMS, HTTPSession/Stateful EJB persistent state, etc.


    Web Services Products
    ------------------------
     - Web Services Platform Developer Edition (a model for using cocoon as a processing platform)
     - UDDI registry product. HP is also a public operator of a UDDI v2 Registry.
     - WS Transactioning product, based on the BTP spec

    Other Integration Products
    ------------------------
     - Process Manager Interation Product
     - HPMS (JMS product)
  2. You should take a look at the other thread Floyd. Bob and HP are taking a bit of a battering.

    What is free aint worth it.

    They have a cheek calling it J2EE 1.3 compliant when it doesn't have 2pc and guaranteed messaging.

    They also don't seem to support CMP/CMR but are bundling Toplink to cover the persitence layer.



  3.     I congragulate HP and Bob Bickel for participating in these forums, that level of accountability (putting oneself in the cross fire of developers) is goes further than many other vendors.

        I am actually surprised at all the negative response. Sure, their pricing strategies may be aimed at getting most non-trivial projects to spend some ca$h, but I always follow the maxim that 'a little good is better than no good at all'. A deployment with HP even with their 'resliency add-on' $5K is still much cheaper than the popular alternatives.

    Floyd


  4. Floyd,

    There are no complaints about making money and credit must be given to the responses. What gets up my nose is the claim of a free J2EE compliant app server, when in fact without the add-ons it isn't much use.

  5. As to whether it is worthwhile, I would suggest seeing for yourself. You can also check out the spec sheet at http://www.bluestone.com/products/hp-as/default.htm for full details of what is included in the free version.

    Bob (Travis) Bickel
    HP Middleware
  6. Before investing time in your distribution, we
    need just one metric from you. Should be simple:

    how many java classes comprise your core code base?

    Here's some of your competitor's numbers:

    Orion 1.5.2: 1,500 classes
    JBoss 2.4.3: 1,200 classes
    WebLogic 6.1: 10,000 classes
    HP Bluestone: ?
    Dynamo: ? (not that it matters, ATG gave up)
    iPlanet: ? (oops, *written in C*)
  7. What would this number say about the product? What is better - a product with 1000 or one with 10000 classes?

    I'm confused.

    Stefan
  8. <quote>
    how many java classes comprise your core code base?
    </quote>

    I'm afraid this is a meaningless way to compare things (even though my company seems to win hands down :-)).

    Throw in an OpenSource product and blam, you go off the charts (for example, Weblogic include Xerces).

    A more reasonable check list would be:

    1) J2EE 1.3 features supported
    2) Proprietary features added

    --
    Cedric

  9. Bob (from HP Middleware)

    According to your data sheet at http://www.bluestone.com/downloads/pdf/11-05-01_HP-AS_data_sheet.pdf states "HP-AS provides full Enterprise Java Beans (EJB) 1.1 support and most EJB 2.0 features, including Message Driven Beans (MDBs), Container Managed Persistence (CMP), RMI/IIOP, local interfaces, and home methods." So HP-AS supports EJB 2.0 CMP out of the box and not from TopLink?

    Thank for your response.
  10. Hai Hoang,

    I think the spec sheet for HP-AS at http://www.bluestone.com/downloads/pdf/11_06_01_HP-AS_spec_sheet.pdf

    states that BMP and CMP 1.1 are fully supported, CMP2.0 is supported via integration to Toplink 4.0 (of which an eval copy is included in the free version of HP-AS).
  11. I don't think simple metrics are meaningless.

    Here are the new numbers (with xerces, xalan etc):

    Orion: 1598 classes (2556, when you add in
                          the obfuscation)

    JBoss: 1940 classes (JBoss didn't have xerces
                          that I could find, I just tossed
                          in the castor distribution for
                          good measure)

    WebLogic: 10,000 classes

    Bluestone: ?


  12. <quote>
    I don't think simple metrics are meaningless.
    </quote>

    ... then by all means, tell us what these numbers say about the products, I'm really curious to hear it.

    --
    Cedric

  13. What can simple metrics determine?
    If we have less ... do we have less or are we better?
    If we have more ... do we have more or are we bloated?

    Here is a summary from a recent cut of HPAS.

    total class is about 2700 not including open source additions and not including spec jars...

    core: 1600 (csf/common/base/extended)
    j2ee: 800 (ejb/servlet/ear/war/rar/...)
    load balancing/app launcher: 150
    misc : 150 ( xml transformation framework, jaxp service )

    As for xerces/xalan a class count in some recent jars is
    xerces: 577
    xalan: 555

    Also, HP Application Server is built on Core Services Framework allowing individual services, defined by interfaces to be implemented in different ways.

    With this mechanism we can remove the HP Servlet engine and replace it with tomcat. The tomcat service is supplied in the HPAS release. We can also plug in other engines to be collocated with the ejb engine, for example we have made a JXTA service that allows the JXTA engine to run collocated with the servlet and ejb engine. This allows JXTA writers to extend JXTA via J2EE mechanisms.

    -Rich.