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News: A J2EE Developers Perspective on Surviving the Job Crunch

  1. Surviving the Job Crunch
    submitted by Gene Chuang for TheServerSide.com

    After bearing witness to the front lines of unemployment and the harrows of the current economic recession, I have found safe harbor in a stable Internet company (oxymoron?), Overture. I know there has been many recent discussions on the job market, interview process, hiring companies, etc... so I would like to share some of my insights and experience over the past month to my good peers.

    First and foremost, network is king! I don't mean getting a Cisco certification, but rather brush up on your previous acquaintances, friends, collegues and bosses: they are your primary resource. In my 4 weeks of jobhunting, I had 8 interviews, of which 6 were from references. And of the 5 good offers I received, 4 were referred. The alternative to networking is to blindly submit your resume to HR's, or (egads!) go through recruiters. The former poses a problem: the average HR these days receive HUNDREDs of resumes weekly, and yours will most likely get lost in the paper shuffle. Recruiters are definitely a mixed bag, but I managed to work with a good one and I'll mention him later. But nothing beats knowing someone who works in a company, sending your resume and have him/her hand it directly to the hiring manager.

    But what if you don't have any quality connections, you ask? Unfortuately this is the case for many software engineers; we just aren't social creatures! But what I found works well too is virtual networking. In fact you're doing it right now, by reading this article on TheServerSide! I am not only a member of this newsgroup, but also lajug, sun's ejb-interest and BEA's developer newsgroup. I managed to get job offers from each of these communities, from people whom I've kept contact with and from lurking and watching for job opportunities.

    If you have to resort to conventional job hunting (which I also did), then use dice.com, which is still the best technical job site out there. What you will learn after a few days of browsing is 80% of all the postings are from recruiters. So the key is to first find the gems, or principal posts, and shoot out our resumes to these companies first. If you have to use recruiters, I suggest TCI (Technical Connections) in West LA. I hooked with Scott Connelly and was pleasantly surprised. He acted professional, didn't used pressure-tactics, and was personable to ME! All recruiters bow the the almighty dollar, so their bosses are the companies, not you. But Scott actually paraded me through 2 or 3 differently companies and followed up on each; furthermore he gave me inside information on other companies I'm interviewing for, and this helps tremendously. So if you gotta get a recruiter, I suggest TCI!

    Unfortunately, the horror stories you hear about the current job market is true. Good positions are few, and the talent pool is overflowing due to the waves of layoffs. For every good sr. developer position, I would say there are 5-10 quality candidates jockeying for it, and the ratio is probably 50:1 for entry and mid level positions! However, the good news is we are faring MUCH here than up in Silicon Valley. From what I hear from my friends, it's an absolute bloodbath up there, tons of unemployed engineers swimming in the wake of sinking Internet startups. At least LA is bolstered by diversity: we have more than just Internet startups defining our local economy!

    So here is my observation on healthy industries that are hiring here in the diversified market that is Los Angeles. If you don't mind working in a production and content driven company, there are plenty of music, movie and SFX companies here in SoCal that are hiring, since the 9/11 event has shown more and more people like to go to the movies. Financial industries are also very strong, because in times of economic recession, people need brokers and bankers more than ever, and the fixed-income market is seeing a boom. Biotech and healthcare is riding a strong wave right now: Kaiser and Blue Shields to name two local HMOs that are hiring, and many biotech startups spinning off of our world-class universities (UCLA, Caltech, Irvine, etc.) are starting to adopt Java and J2EE, so plenty of opportunies there. And finally, as a last resort, if you don’t mind the cubicle life and designing weapons of mass destruction, defense companies like Rathyeon are always looking for good programmers.

    Ultimately, patience is key in today's market. Even hotshot developers who get a dozen offers on the spot will now have to wait it out. Companies will take their time and interview their pool of candidates before even getting to the most qualified ones, so you should do the same and apply to as many companies as humanly possible! Be flexible in your demands, and good luck!

    Threaded Messages (712)

  2. Gene:

    During your job hunt, did you see more Java or Microsoft jobs? Are there many new companies adopting the J2EE technologies under this tough economic condition (I assume the safe choice for many is keep patching their Microsoft-based applications to save some $$ - software, hardware, developer cost)?
  3. Eric - "Are there many new companies adopting the J2EE technologies under this tough economic condition?"

    I think the real question is - "Are there many new companies?". I think the real problem with the job market is not the technology it uses but the lack of "new jobs".

    In 98-00 we saw hundreds of new companies with millions of dollars racing towards IPO. These companies created a nice boom in our industry. I read F'dCompany.com every day and am amazed to see how much $ some of these joints had.

    I have seen a lot of interest in .NET from different markets. It is an easy market to dive into because there are companies looking for people and there are very few experts.

    Could be a good time to ride the wave of .NET. If your willing to defect to the dark side. :P

    Greg
  4. defect, and you will be punished;
    good point about the early entry-let me know how it goes
  5. Hi Eric,

    To be honest with you, in my 4 weeks of job search, I even thought of look at .net opportunities. This may be arrogant presumption on my part, but I didn't consider doing anything other than Java; hence my key search words on www.dice.com was always "java, j2ee, ejb, weblogic" :-).

    But here's a little statistical experiment: I just did a search on www.dice.com for these various keywords:

    .net - 476
    j2ee - 651
    c++ - 7674
    java - 3972

    So it does seem .net has the potential, but right now it is still a prototype environment. Check out some of the .net job posts: "6 months industry experience"... :-) Just like Java 5 years ago!

    However, I would not completely dismiss .net. For example my current company, Overture, is a 100% java shop. However I'm in discussion with a few managers, and we come to the conclusion that MS still provide the bulk of data-analysis tools, Excel and Access, that our clients use. Hence we are looking into the web-Excel integration solution, which smells of .net.

    Gene
  6. I hope you don't mind if I mention my own experience.

    I live in New York City. I got laid off by Prudential Financial last June, and I must disagree with you: the financial industry is always the worst place to be during a recession, because the income of financial companies is probably linear in the volume of transactions executed. Even Prudential (a.k.a. "The Rock") decided to cut entire projects and lay off tons of people.

    I got another job in two months using monster.com. I posted my resume there and recruiters called me several times a week. When I got my current job at Marsh & McLennan (working at the World Trade Center), I was in various stages of the interview process with 5 other companies. I hope that if you try this now you will have as much luck. Don't be suprised if you are asked to take a pay cut - I was. The salaries (and contract rates) are not what they used to be.

    Incidentally, my company lost a lot of people on 9/11 and we need business analysts (Use cases, UML), data modelers (ERWin, Oracle), designers (Rose, UML, Java), and programmers (J2EE, Ant, Xerces, Oracle). Marsh & McLennan is the biggest insurance services company in the world, and we are doing ok even after 9/11. If anyone wants to send me their resume, go ahead. You can use

    guglielmo dot lichtner at marshmc dot com

    Good luck to all the unemployeed people out there.

    Guglielmo
  7. Hi Guglielmo,

    My observation on nation-wide stability of the financial industry was purely based on www.dice.com. Since I did fixed-income analysis at Wilshire Associates 3 jobs ago, I figure I used this skill as part of my resume and keyword search on dice. A search on "java fixed income" revealed plenty of jobs here in LA, but 3-4 times more in SF and NY.

    Furthermore, I got a handful of recruiters hounding me specifically because I knew fixed income and java. There were at least 3 companies here in SoCal that are looking for these skillsets: Western Asset in Pasadena, The Capital Group in Brea and Capital Group in Downtown LA.

    So my guess is the financial market is pretty hot here in LA because its a novel environment for these companies, while NY and SF is facing oversaturation? Dunno, just a theory...

    Gene
  8. Gene,

    perhaps fixed income *should* be doing well, because it's a safe investment. I didn't think of that. I have always thought of the financial industry as mostly stocks, which are very unpopular right now.

    I wonder what other industries must be florishing because of the recession. Perhaps mortgages, since interest rates are so low.

    Guglielmo
  9. Dear Guglielma,
    Could you please mail me your resume on rajdeep at itil dot com this will help me in preparing mine several others here.

    Thanks in anticipation,
    Rajdeep
  10. Raining Blood (Slayer)[ Go to top ]

    First off... Excellent article Gene! I think your second paragraph says it all. Networking is key.

    I live in the "Silicon Valley" and for the past year and a half I have been working on a "real" application. (non-doy-com work) I always thought it was safe to contract because once I was done there would be more opportunities. After all, this was Nerdvana - "The Silicon Valley"!

    I have not wanted to leave the SV area for personal reasons (blond, blue eyes) but after 4 months of looking I have had to open up my search. I thought I was doing the right thing by starting my search early. Now I see the end of my contract coming in December, a completed project and a tough job market.

    The one problem I have found is that many of my contacts are unemployed and looking for work.

    The good news to all this is that after the blood rains the cream will be at the top. Maybe one day I won't have to refactor out people's CASE STATEMENTS in transaction logic.

    Greg

    Awaiting the hour of reprisal
    Your time slips away

    Raining Blood - Slayer
  11. Raining Blood (Slayer)[ Go to top ]

    Great thread! Examples of networking going on right here!

    >>I have not wanted to leave the SV area for personal reasons (blond, blue eyes)

    Do you have any pics? ;)
  12. Interesting article. Very motivating. I too like many others have been laid off. What is very odd, the company is doing well compared to the normal dot-com and it looks like they'll last. Good for them. I'll keep an eye on my stock options! Oh....by the way...does anyone in the MA area need a hardcore serverside java developer? ;) My suggestion is this: take you're time while job-hunting to expand your skillset. You have no other choice but to live off your severance pay so you might as well pretend you're working. Don't let your skills get rusty. If there was something you were lacking, work on it while you have the time. Oh...by the way...does anyone in the MA area need a hardcore serverside java developer?
  13. Chris Opacki,

    Yes, our company is looking for hard-core server-side java developers (the harder, the better). Please e-mail me your resume to krishnant at ph dot com.

  14. I am a j2EE developer looking for an opening. Can u please mail me the id, so that i can send my resume to. My email id is idin24 at yahoo dot com.

    Thank u
  15. The basic message in this thread is correct - network. Chris, if you are still in the market send to my attention a copy of your resume to jobs at emptoris dot com.

    Mark Johnson
  16. The basic message in this thread is network.

    My name is Gary Khominsky and currently I am in the market with Java/C++ skills (Australia, Melbourne). I would be grate appreciate for any help.

  17. I am a Java Developer working as a consultant in a financial company in NYC. Just started looking for a new job and recalled about that forum. If anyone is looking for an senior level programmer with J2EE, Swing, JMS, Sybase and provides H1b transfer, please contact krage at screaminet dot com. Thanks.
  18. test
  19. Hi,
    Another aspect to this whole thing is if you go through the recruiters and if you already have a job they are not very keen on your resume because the "negotiations" are in their favor for people who are laid off.
    "Stick to your present firm even if its choking you" -- seems to be the motto.
  20. Gene:

    Can you give me Scott Connelly's contact info?
    I'm looking for a Southern Cal position.

    Thanks,
    Dave
  21. Hi Dave,

    Here it is: sconnelly at technicalconnections dot com. Mention my name, I may get a referral fee :-).

    And for anyone who need more personal insights on the SoCal market, feel free to email me at genechuang at yahoo dot com

    Good luck to all!

    Gene
  22. RE: Followup to emails regarding OC market

    I received a couple of emails asking about how the market is doing down in Orange County, and I figure I respond here publicly so it may help others, and also encourage those who have more OC experience to post as well:

    Two jobs ago, from 1999 to 2000, I worked for a company down in Newport Beach (toney part of OC) called Mindshare Media/Nextake. You most likely haven't heard of these names, because they no longer exist! But during that time OC was going to be THE next Silicon Valley, with two hotbeds: Irvine Spectrum down south and UC Irvine Tech Campus up north. Internet companies were spawning out of these two areas like wild flower. But with the bubble burst in April 2000, most of these companies are no more. However, when I drive by these areas, I still see a lot of survivors. I don't know how they are doing internally though... Other companies I know of are those incubated by ThinkTank. ThinkTank is the OC counterpart to Idealab of LA, and Scott Blum, founder of Buy.com, is the counterpart of Bill Gross. (You can take that both as a complement as well as a derision :-)) I don't know if there are any viable companies left from that incubator... One company I interviewed for back in 2000 that seemed to have a lot of promise was Access360; anyone else heard of them?

    Overall I didn't like my stay down in OC; I thought the region was too conservative, the atmosphere was too canned and boring, and worst of all, most restaurants and diners are closed by 9:00 pm, which does NOT cater to internet startup hours! :-) But to each his own; some people like the peace and tranquility.

    Gene



  23. Not sure whether still there are some people will read this message, well, just do marketing...
    I have worked within different fields, worked with C++, Java, Siebel consultant, IBM WCS, webmethods, and I created the website http://www.bpromote.com all by myself to provide ASP based eBusiness solution(including eCommerce, CRM, workflow,etc) online. Since our company is facing financial problem, I am looking for a job now. I do am very good at these fields, the best job I want to work on is Java, and then IBM WCS, Siebel, Webmethods, C++. Still like Java, however, I will do well on whatever I can get in this bad market.
    Any comment or suggestions please send to wanghanmin@hotmail.com
  24. Hmm, very interesting.. a post intended for the original topic of this messageboard is now appearing before us; I think that Hanmin will make an excellent subject to further add to our debate, especially considering that he is either nonchalant about the current context that this topic has twisted into, or simply has not bothered to fill himself in.

    Hanmin, are you currently on an immigrant Visa or are you a citizen of the US? If you are indeed an immigrant, could you please answer the following questions:

    1) What was your primary motive for choosing to work in America?
    2) Do you agree with capitalism, socialism, or communism?
    3) Do you plan on living here for the rest of your life? Would you continue to live here even if the salaries for Java developers were much much better in another country, say... Canada?

    Thank you in advance for your honest answers, Hanmin?
    PS: Love the website, you have got your buzzwords down, that's for sure.
  25. RE: H-1 workers

    I also received quite a few emails regarding foreigners working here. I don't have personal experience in this, for I am a US Citizen. However I can speak from a company's prospective. I believe most companies see two barriers when hiring foreigner:

    1) difficulty/expense in acquiring H1 visas
    2) problem with language, assimulation into company culture and interaction with the team

    I'm not quite sure about the logistics of #1, but I can give my two cents about #2. One of the most important qualities in a candidate is not his/her technical prowess, but compatibility and interaction with the already-in-place team. If you cannot demonstrate the ability to communicate and connect with the interviewers, you will have a hard time finding a job. But I've seen people with thick accents communicate more fluidly than those who are natural English speakers, so it's all about your presentation and personality!

    Gene



  26. Re: H1 visas

    Gene, I think you are wrong in your assessment about:

    1) difficulty/expense in acquiring H1 visas
    2) problem with language, assimulation into company culture and interaction with the team

    Being a French living in Silicon Valley, I have the unfortunate pleasure to have dealt with this problem first hand (although never personally).

    The problem is neither in the difficulty (companies usually already have immigration lawyers who will take care of the paperwork) nor the expense (an H1-B visa is cheap, barring lawyers' costs, which the company is usually already paying anyway).

    Nor is it about language or culture: immigrants are usually very willing to learn the minimum of English that will allow them to get their work done.

    The main problem is simply in the time it takes to get an H1-B. If the company applies in an INS office on the West Coast, it typically takes 3-4 months to get the visa (3-4 weeks on the East Coast). In the dot com days, companies didn't really mind waiting that long, but it's certainly different now.

    Note that a law was passed about a year ago that makes it easier to transfer an existing visa, but getting the first one still remains the main difficulty.

    Mes dix centimes.

    --
    Cedric

  27. Bonjour Cedric,

    There is one major problem now though. I am finding a lot of employers are not willing to invest the time. Many of the postings have statements like "US CITIZENS GREENCARD ONLY!" on them.

    I am a Canadian citizen and work under the NAFTA (TN1) program and am having an extremely hard time getting employers to look at my resume. I can get a VISA at the border on my own for 50$ it doesn’t seem to matter.

    I am looking for a position in Canada but with the destruction of Nortel and many other Canadian companies that market seems to be worse.

    Good luck to everyone,
    Greg
  28. I heard recently that there's a provision for premium processing of H1B Visas by paying a $1000 extra and INS assures that you get an H1B change done in 15 days or they would return the amount back.

    Hope this helps,
    Venkatesh
  29. <quote>
    I heard recently that there's a provision for premium processing of H1B Visas by paying a $1000 extra and INS assures that you get an H1B change done in 15 days or they would return the amount back.

    Hope this helps,
    </quote>

    Actually, no, it doesn't help. I never heard of this, it doesn't sound too serious (if anything, the INS has been slowing down the processing of visas, especially since 9/11) and there is no mention of it on the INS official Web site (http://travel.state.gov).

    Please be considerate of unemployed people and don't take part in propagating rumors, it raises everybody's hopes unnecessarily.

    --
    Cedric

  30. Cedric, I'm on H1B too..I'm not inconsiderate to any..

    Venkatesh

  31. Hi Cedric:

    Expedited H1-B Visa Processing is for real!
    A friend of mine recently got his Expedited H1-B Visa
    in a matter of 15 days. I know it because I have done
    the rounds for govt. paper work here in India.
    And yes, it does cost upwards of $1000!

    You can smile. This news should raise everybody's
    hopes! :-) So keep smiling.

    Have a good day!

    Saifi Khan.

    <cedric_writes>
    Actually, no, it doesn't help. I never heard of this, it doesn't sound too serious (if anything, the INS has been slowing down the processing of visas, especially since 9/11) and there is no mention of it on the INS official Web site (http://travel.state.gov).

    Please be considerate of unemployed people and don't take part in propagating rumors, it raises everybody's hopes unnecessarily.
    </cedric_writes>
  32. Saifi Khan,
     Is it really possible to finish up H1B in 15 days ? Wow ! really sounds great !!!
     Hey can you let me know the company which has done this or which can do it for me. Actually, as I mentioned earlier, I am Java Developer working in Sydney, with 5 years(3+ years in Java/J2EE) experience, and right now, I am looking for a company which can sponsor H1-B for me. I can be reached at "mkitjobs at yahoo dot com dot au".
    Have a GOOD DAY
    Thank you,
    regards,
    Mansoor Khan
  33. "I am Java Developer working in Sydney, with 5 years(3+ years in Java/J2EE) experience, and right now, I am looking for a company which can sponsor H1-B for me"

    Good luck. You might land a job at cisco.
  34. Thanks for the wishes...
    Please do let me know, through my above mentioned email address("mkitjobs at yahoo dot com dot au") for any Java opportunities in USA, in your contact.
    Thank you.
  35. Tracy Milburn wrote:

    "Good luck. You might land a job at cisco."

    This reply reminds me of a scene from 'Fiddler on the Roof' when a rabbi is asked whether there is a blessing for the Czar. The wise old man pauses a minute then replies:

    "May the Lord bless and keep the Czar - far away from us!"

    LOL!
  36. Yeah, I mean, on the one hand I hate to make jokes because the guy is looking for a job, but on the other hand, this places is full of enough h1b's as it is, and needs less of what we have. His chances, I feel, for finding a job here are... 0.
  37. "His chances, I feel, for finding a job here are... 0."

    This year.....
  38. His chances are ... 0 ... if he does not try. There are lots of java jobs cropping up in Texas again as we speak. With his J2EE experience he won't have too much trouble. But why is he leaving Sydney ? London needs J2EE experienced programmers as well. Ireland is chock full of IT openings.

    Anyone here experimented with .Net yet ? Stadler should have experienced Visual Studio .Net's automatic creation of required XML and SOAP structures needed to turn an app into an XML based web service, no ?
  39. Hi,
    >His chances are ... 0 ... if he does not try. There are >lots of java jobs cropping up in Texas again as we speak
    Yeah, infact when I am looking through 'monster.com', 'dice.com', I am seeing so many job listing matching my JAVA/J2EE profile in USA...but, unfortunately, almost in every advertisement, it's clearly mentioned that, 'NO H1-B THIS TIME PLEASE'...
    So, Being a regular member of this website, I thought, I can make use of this favourite developer community to share my position and to get more contacts. So, if anyone could please let me know about the companies, which needs Java people and which could sponsor H1-B. As well as if anyone is aware of or had a good experience with a Genuine Job Website, then please do let me know about it. I can be reached at "mkitjobs at yahoo dot com dot au".
    Once again, I wish to thank all my friends of this developer community for sharing their thoughts and time. I look forward for more support and comments.
    regards,
    Mansoor Khan.
  40. Mansoor, please don't get discouraged by the negative views shared by some people participating in this discussion. Yes, your timing stinks, but, just hang in there and things will improve once again. This (USA)is a great country - it always has and always will bounce back! After living in many parts of the world, including Europe, Asia and North America, I can safely say this: "God bless America!"
  41. Adnan rafiq, stop brown nosing. You don't have to confer lavish salutations to us white masters in order to be welcome here.

    The J2EE folks who are out of work now need more networking. I'm starting to see, lo and behold, even entry level java programming jobs in Austin. Quite a few job postings nation-wide, relative to a couple of months earlier. One of the things that restricts pink-slipped workers from getting re-employed is unwillingness to re-locate.

    I'm sure there are more java positions in Dallas, and Houston than Austin.

    .Net is on its way bull dozing into the developers' psyche. Don't you just love this coerced means of adoption ?
  42. Tim Brandon writes:

    "The J2EE folks who are out of work now need more networking. I'm starting to see, lo and behold, even entry level java programming jobs in Austin."

    I sincerely hope this is so.

    "Quite a few job postings nation-wide, relative to a couple of months earlier."

    I think there is anticipation of an upturn in the economy and therefore jobs. As I noted earlier, what I don't see (as yet) is actual hiring yet. Then again I have not actively been in the market nor regularly checking up on it. So I really don't know. One thing I'll point out is that an increase in listings is not necessarily synonymous with an increase in hiring, though it can be a prerequisite.

    "One of the things that restricts pink-slipped workers from getting re-employed is unwillingness to re-locate."

    This is very true in my experience. A willingness to pick up and go definately keeps you more employable. If you are willing to do anything you can do it also helps a lot. Another thing which helps is a willingness to take contracts and cut your asking price if necessary.

    It's fairly likely that I'll be coming back to the US sometime in the next 3 months. I'm interested in any opinions about which markets I ought to try out first, if anyone has any opinions on the matter.

    I have worked in and enjoyed Atlanta, Raleigh NC, and Dallas in the past. I also liked Austin and Kansas City, though the latter is no software hotbed. I'd like people's opinions about Boston/New Hampshire, Chicago/Milwaukee, New Jersey and perhaps the Philadelphia area. Northern Virginia has been good in the past, but I figure that the telecoms depression has hit hard there. True, or is it recovering by now? Last I heard Silicon Valley was still an economic basket case. True?

  43. I would not recommend ever working in a tech job in NY/NJ. Boston and SF are very expensive as well. Given that you can make 20k more for the same job/position in NY than in Texas, but if you figure in the living costs, Houston is the best according to one survey.

    Kansas city is a dba's paradise, or so I've heard.
  44. "but if you figure in the living costs, Houston is the best according to one survey. "

    That's absolutely correct. For some reason, cost of living in Houston is about 2/3 what it is around here in Dallas. I imagine it's the incredibly horrible weather. I was down there recently and was sweating,e ven though it was only 80 out. And i usually love the hot weather and don't start sweating until around 95+! Houston is SERIOUS humidity.
  45. "It's fairly likely that I'll be coming back to the US sometime in the next 3 months. I'm interested in any opinions about which markets I ought to try out first, "

    Houston seems to be a lot better than Dallas right now, if you can stand the weather.
  46. White masters? Pleeaase! Stop dreaming! USA belongs to the brown and the black as much as anyone else. What I expressed came from the bottom of my heart. Its not just about $$$ that makes people wanna flock to America. Yes, I wasn't born here, but, have lived here long enough (18+ years) to appreciate the freedom, respect, and the open-mindedness of the people - the last of which is sorely lacking from other countries, especially European.
    Expressing love for your country has nothing to do with the color of your skin. Mr. Brandon, this is perhaps, the most derogatory, ethnocentric and racist remark I have heard in the longest time. Are you sure you didn't actually migrate from Europe?
  47. Rafiq,
    >That was indeed a typical racist remark.....
    >But, this sort of stupid remarks will be arising here and >there for few more years. What to do !!!!!!!
    But, I am still looking for some good company or a good recruitment agency or atleast a genuine Job site, through which, I can proceed my US Job search.
    So, by using this development community, I would like to get more support and information.

    Thank you,
    Mansoor Khan.
    ("mkitjobs at yahoo dot com dot au")

  48. "But, I am still looking for some good company or a good recruitment agency or atleast a genuine Job site, through which, I can proceed my US Job search.
    So, by using this development community, I would like to get more support and information. "

    Mansoor,

    The first wave to be hit were developers. From there, it trickled down to recruiters because, if no placements are being made, time to lay off the recruiters.

    My next prediction: We'll start seeing some job boards going down the drain.

    There are no jobs, therefore going to job boards does no good. I've been tracking the job postings in an excel spreadsheet daily (I'll post a link to it tomorrow, I'm at home right now). You can visually see that it's been on a slight decline for about 2 weeks now.

    My advice would be to go back to school and learn something else.
  49. My advice would be to go back to school and learn something >else.


    Or in Mansoor's case, borrow some of your Dad's import/export money and buy some real estate in Karachi or New Delhi. Then relax in Tahiti and let the streaming rent pad your swiss Bank für Handel & Effekten account in Zurich.

    By the way, my white masters comment was sarcasm. It was only to underline the loathesome brown nosing that comes from Rafiq's and Shafiq's that row through the oceans to our land and feel they need to exaggerate in their faux patriotic blandishment to win our sympathies. Either that, or they think whites are utterly stupid (given that our average IQ is less than that of asians). Goddangit, we've been throwing millions of green cards to you Khan's and Pathan's happily without any subservient behaviour needed.

    The effects of colonialism and imperialism left drastic inferiority complexes in those south asians and middle easterners. Till today, you will find unqualified white men earning $10 k per MONTH (Tax free, and with a company luxury car and spacious apartment provided), because of the white skin color, in the middle east. While brownies from south asia who are more qualified would get 5 or 7 times less. It is the filthy remnants of racism that we just cannot rid ourselves of no matter how much we clamor for equality. Blacks are still called slaves in the east, they are looked down upon in the orient, harassed in our country because their skulls' shapes and facial features resemble that of gorillas, but they still receive the best in our country. Just for running 9 seconds in a 100m race or jumping to place a ball in a net they are paid millions. In fact, the essence of freedom that blacks enjoy is best epitomized by the rather obscene fact that they can date and marry blond and blue eyed women.

    But I digress...

  50. Hi Timothy Brandon,
     COOL DOWN...What's happening with you ? Are you out of work from a long time ? Even it so...I don't see any reason why Joblessnessssss should make a healthy man to a mad man, that too, to this extend... COOL DOWN MAN !!!...

    >buy some real estate in Karachi or New Delhi.
     BTW thanks for the real-estate business advice. I was of the opinion that, this discussion forum is for IT-Professionals, sharing their IT experiences... But, I didn't know that, people like you will also be interested in sharing their un-professional thoughts, in this type of discussion forums...Anyhow, regarding your advice, as I don't know anyone in Karachi nor in NewDelhi, unfortunately I am not interested in considering your advice at this moment. But, may be soon after coming to USA and earning some more good money, I will definetely consider your advice and will buy some land in USA, and I may also contact you at that time, for further suggestions... Ok..
    Thank you...once again..for your real "professional behaviour"...

    Mansoor Khan.
  51. Mansoon, the advice is honest though, if you're just now starting a career in the computer programming, we're trying to tell you this industry is going to be on a downhill for, imho, a pretty long time. h1b's will get more and more difficult to attain, and there's just no jobs at all right now.

    If I were just starting out, no way would I get into the computer industry at all.
  52. Tracy Milburn writes:
    "Mansoon, the advice is honest though, if you're just now starting a career in the computer programming, we're trying to tell you this industry is going to be on a downhill for, imho, a pretty long time. h1b's will get more and more difficult to attain, and there's just no jobs at all right now."

    As a short-term judgement this is correct. Longer term I don't agree. We're at the bottom of the business cycle right now and things look their worst. Pretty soon Ed Yourdon will come out with a new edition of "The Decline and Fall of the American Programmer". When that happens (or other doom and gloom tomes come out) it's a strong buy signal for Oracle and Cisco...... :-)

    "If I were just starting out, no way would I get into the computer industry at all."

    Software development is an extremely demanding profession in that it is extremely necessary to stay up to date and very easy to get lose touch with the new things which are happening. Given the demands which employers will put on you and the self-education requirement needed to stay on top, this is not a 40 hour a week job. Maybe 50 hours a week minimum.

    There are many days I completely agree with Tracy about choosing a different profession. Especially this week when I am meeting with absolutely no understanding by my managers of how long it takes to do this stuff!
  53. "Software development is an extremely demanding profession in that it is extremely necessary to stay up to date and very easy to get lose touch with the new things which are happening. Given the demands which employers will put on you and the self-education requirement needed to stay on top, this is not a 40 hour a week job. Maybe 50 hours a week minimum. "

    Well, that depends on where you work and who are you. In your position, it's ok to work that much because you have no life. Just kidding. But most people have families, and I would like to work LESS than 40 hours/week, not more. My employers just have to understand this. To me, if the workloadis so high that people have to work 50+ hours/week, it's time to hire more help, not crush the workers you have.

    But, then, we've been through this debate, haven't we Don?
  54. "Well, that depends on where you work and who are you. In your position, it's ok to work that much because you have no life. Just kidding. But most people have families, and I would like to work LESS than 40 hours/week, not more. My employers just have to understand this. To me, if the workloadis so high that people have to work 50+ hours/week, it's time to hire more help, not crush the workers you have."

    Yes we have had this debate, and you still don't understand my point. I am stating what is reality, not whether or not I LIKE reality.

    Let's suppose that I stated that Adolf Hitler held power over Europe from 1940 until 1945. I suspect you would accuse me of thereby being a Nazi, because my statement of fact somehow meant I approved of that fact(for the record, I don't).

    If staying on top (or reclaiming that ground) is important to one, a 50 hour week is one of the prices one pays in this business. It's a fact whether you like it or not!

    A bigger problem is who 'owns' the extra hours. Many employers would like nothing better than to force you into putting in another 10 hours per week grinding out the same things you do in the other forty. Which gives you absolutyely no advantage for your extra effort! The key is to defend the time. Whether I use it to increse my skill base and Tracy spends it with his kids matters relatively little, because it is a matter of personal choice. If our luverly employers confiscate it, however, it is a complete dead loss!

  55. "If staying on top (or reclaiming that ground) is important to one, a 50 hour week is one of the prices one pays in this business. It's a fact whether you like it or not! "

    Well, that's your choice and, again, I feel like guys like you hurt the rest of us by not standing up and fighting fora reasonable work weak.
  56. Hi guys,
    >If I were just starting out, no way would I get into the computer industry at all.

    I repeat, I am not a fresher...I already have around 5 years of IT experience, out of which around 3 years in J2EE. In sydney, I have worked on contract in J2EE projects with big companies like, Fujitsu Australia Software Technology, PWC and Deloites. And as I already mentioned, I am actually looking for Java/J2EE jobs in USA, with the companies who can sponsor H1B's...ok..
    Anyhow...I am trying hard and I have enough confidense and knowledge with me...Though, I can understand that the market is not too good...but hardwork and talent can overcome any tough conditions...And I again repeat, any friend from this develoment community, can contact me through my email address for any Java/J2EE opportunities in USA(the land of real opportunities!!!).
    Thank you once again....
    Mansoor Khan.
    ("mkitjobs at yahoo dot com dot au")
  57. {We're just as capable to fight for our rights, albeit in a peaceful manner.}

    Yeah, the world just saw your 'capability to fight' demonstrated by your general Musharraf. We always bail you guys out. Our president and congress also happens to think that the 70 F-16's you ordered and paid for are not to be delivered to you after all. Shame. Those toys are too complex for you.

    Listen Shafiq, I did not stereotype you. You stereotyped yourself by your uncalled for adulations. Everyone knows what keeps the 'diaspora' here alive and kicking. It's the fat dollars.

    An honest tip for Monsoon Khan Pathan. If you have relatives or friends in USA, they're your best bet to hooking you up. Because I'm sure your uncle and brother in law and father's friend's son are programmers. Irrigate those channels you know in USA, and you'll get a job quicker than through job boards.

  58. Slowly, but surely, he reveals his true face. Ouch!
  59. adnan, "Slowly, but surely, he reveals his true face. Ouch! "

    What are you talking about? The guy gives you a textbook definition of racism, and you still say he's racist. How ignorant are you?

    It's a shame what this thread has become... it should be deleted.
  60. Tracy, you're right. What do I know about racism? I think I should be content with my import/export dad, stay-at-home mom, my inferiority complex resulting from the post-coloniasm of Asia, people calling us Shafiqs and Monsoons a'la Jim Crowe (when they very well know our real names), our inferior intellect which does not let us understand the complexities of F16s and such. I also agree that we only come here for the fat dollars. The fact that we pursue higher education and work hard to earn them is, of course, a moot point here. Besides, trying to make a better living by earning more money, or relocating in search of the riches is such an un-American concept anyway.
    To be very honest, I never had to resort to using racism as a benefit, simply because most people I know and interact with (including blacks, whites, browns) are decent, good-hearted people. My respect and love for this country comes from the heart. I do not need to please anyone. But, I do want the world to know that "my" country is not what they think it is. If my only fault is that I am a first-generation American and still have roots in the old world, so be it. Just like you, I want to be treated as an individual, not a Shafiq or Monsoon.
    I agree that this topic should not have degenerated into something like this. So, I will make this my last message on this topic. Peace.
  61. " agree that this topic should not have degenerated into something like this. So, I will make this my last message on this topic. "

    My thanks comes from the heart.
  62. I am profoundly disturbed with the tone that this discussion has taken. Apparently some Americans see no reason for people born in other countries and who have emigrated to the US and become citizens or who wish to do
    so, to praise the US and express patriotic thoughts.

    I firmly disagree with this sentiment. Writing as a 4th-generation descendant of Irish immigrants and third-generation descendant of German immigrants, I feel far more sympathy and fellow-feeling for the Indian and Pakistani (?) colleagues who have expressed their love of the opportunities the US offers (and perhaps the country itself???) than with the native-born who have been spilling their bile on this thread.

    Some *americans* ask why Indian and Muslim chaps would rather come to the US than come to the UK or Germany, which are openly welcoming them? The answer is blindingly obvious to someone who has worked in Europe. To use a Briticism, Indians are usually not 'clubbable'. In Germany they are 'Auslanders'. Outsiders. In Germany 2nd and 3rd generation Turks whose grandparents came in the 50's are still 'Auslanders'. A recent study in Newsweek Europe shows precisely one Turk on the board of a major German company. After 50 years. Britain may be a bit further along than that. May not, it's hard to tell.

    To give an example I observed at my old company, about 70% of the technical staff were foreigners of one type or another. The management was virtually 100% British. Not 'British Heritage', Indians or Muslims born, educated, and raised in the UK. Diversity this generation tends to consist of the odd British woman. Upper management had the odd Dutchman or Frenchman from a top-notch B-school, but middle management solidly British. Indians and Muslims aren't clubbable.

    My observation was that the 30% of British on the staff seemed to get about 60-70% of the promotions. They were good chaps in a pub, the life of the party. The Indians and Muslims tended to go home to their families at days end.

    In the US Indians can become management or start companies. One of the richest men in Silicon Valley (an Indian) began his career as a co-founder of Sun before going on to become the major shaper behind the Optical hardware industry. THAT is being an insider, gentlemen! He could not have done it in the UK or in Germany. The Indian and Muslim chaps who are posting on this board are (I am sure) fully aware of this fact.

    The US is open to the talents. That is why people want to come. I say that people like Masood and Mr. Khan are one reason why the US stays in the lead. I say keep coming, gentlemen. I hope to work with you one day!
  63. Stadler, you just penned a pulitzer piece. The problem is that
    it was not relevant to the 'racism' and KKK line of mud slinging going on. The whole 'immigrants coming in' line has had my support from when I started the thread. What I don't like is the "now it's our turn to take over" nor the annoying subservient attitude. I firmly believe that Indo-Paks give one version of why they come to USA when talking to us (patriotic love, open environment etc), while amongst themselves the motive is rigidly consistent (MONEY) and sometimes sinister (like the indian lady's comment). There is nothing wrong with admitting capitalistic reasons, after all as one man said, 'is that so un-american' ? But to veil the money-factor with cute euphemistic cliches is abohorrent. By the way, I did not say anything against the Muslims. IMHO, the mainstream Muslims are
    the world's cream personality-wise. I have also espoused the value of the immigrants in the tech. sector because caucasians as a population (as opposed to individual examples) seem to have less of an aptitude for technology related subjects than asians, not to mention IQ (which has been determined). I don't think I, nor most of my technology colleagues, ascribe to the right wing ideology.
  64. "Stadler, you just penned a pulitzer piece. The problem is that it was not relevant to the 'racism' and KKK line of mud slinging going on."

    Earlier, someone else posted an opinion that implied that I am a Klan member. It is sickening I agree. I try to avoid using the word 'racism' because it is IMHO massively overused. Racism exists but it is used for phenomena which have nothing to do with actual overt racism.

    "The whole 'immigrants coming in' line has had my support from when I started the thread. What I don't like is the "now it's our turn to take over" nor the annoying subservient attitude."

    Now it's OUR turn? I find that amusing, not annoying. Go ahead and try is my attitude! The sort of chap who says that kind of thing is apt to think himself of a higher caste than I am, and will therefore not believe he has anything to learn from me. As I am perfectly willing to pick his brain in turn I will usually end up knowing what he does without having to return the favor. Which makes it hard for him to beat me out!

    'Annoyingly subservient'? I find love of the US and/or a wish to immigrate neither annoying nor subservient, but rather perfectly natural. I think the US is the world's best country on balance, though other places (particularly Italy, France, and Spain) have their points also.

    "I firmly believe that Indo-Paks give one version of why they come to USA when talking to us (patriotic love, open environment etc), while amongst themselves the motive is rigidly consistent (MONEY) and sometimes sinister (like the indian lady's comment). There is nothing wrong with admitting capitalistic reasons, after all as one man said, 'is that so un-american' ?"

    Do you really believe that us native-born people lack our own forms of double-speak? Perhaps you lack hyopocracy but I certainly don't! Someone once said that one form of self-knowledge is understanding what a hypocrite one is. These days when I'm asked what I actually think of the UK I usually bite my tongue a good deal. They don't want to know what I really think and they won't listen when I say it.

    "But to veil the money-factor with cute euphemistic cliches is abohorrent."

    My Irish ancestors came over to work on the Erie canal for pay rates 5X those in Ireland. Why should I sneer at the economic motives of the current bunch? That kind of hypocrite I'm not!

    "By the way, I did not say anything against the Muslims. IMHO, the mainstream Muslims are the world's cream personality-wise."

    I object to some of the rhetoric flowing from you're keyboard and suggesrt you give these people much more benefit of the doubt. I have no reason to believe you are anti-muslim.

    "I have also espoused the value of the immigrants in the tech. sector because caucasians as a population (as opposed to individual examples) seem to have less of an aptitude for technology related subjects than asians, not to mention IQ (which has been determined)."

    I think the asians we see in the US are at the right end of the bell curve. I don't believe that asians are inherently any better suited to technology than the native-born are. It's simply that we don't work with asians who don't posess the aptitude because those asians don't make it over in any great numbers.

    "I don't think I, nor most of my technology colleagues, ascribe to the right wing ideology."

    And I do ascribe to parts of the 'right-wing ideology', the best parts I believe. I cannot stand people like Pat Buchanan or Ross Perot. I stand for the 'give them a chance' part of the right-wing ideology, and I believe that natural human rights reside in the individual, not the society.
  65. "The sort of chap who says that kind of thing is apt to think himself of a higher caste than I am"

    Don, you've been in the uk too long; it's time to come home. You're starting to sound like a Brit!
  66. Tracy writes:

    "Don, you've been in the uk too long; it's time to come home. You're starting to sound like a Brit!"

    Perhaps so. But I do not think like a Brit, that much is becoming obvious. I might be returning fairly soon.
  67. don, "Perhaps so. But I do not think like a Brit, that much is becoming obvious. I might be returning fairly soon. "

    Come on back to Tayxas!
  68. "Come on back to Tayxas!"

    Thanks for the invite. I jest might do that. Is it state law men have to wear cowboy boots, drive a Silverado or a Beemer, and shoot inoffensive road signs with your 45?

    Speaking of, what are this week's figures for 'Tayxas'?
  69. "Speaking of, what are this week's figures for 'Tayxas'? "

    Done, i'll try and remember to include you on my weekly distribution list. i post it on Fridays.
  70. timothy, "Stadler, you just penned a pulitzer piece. The problem is that
    it was not relevant to the 'racism' and KKK line of mud slinging going on. The whole 'immigrants coming in' line has had my support from when I started the thread. What I don't like is the "now it's our turn to take over" "

    EXACTLY! He kept saying you were showing your true face, I think HE is the one with that tag. How horrible: "Our" as if he's speaking for indian people collectively, like some kind of revolt or something. How revolting.
  71. Tracy writes:

    "EXACTLY! He kept saying you were showing your true face, I think HE is the one with that tag. How horrible: "Our" as if he's speaking for indian people collectively, like some kind of revolt or something. How revolting."

    Personally I don't recall writing anything of the kind, about Tim or anyone else! Not my style typically.

    Pray explain?
  72. don, "Personally I don't recall writing anything of the kind, about Tim or anyone else! Not my style typically. "

    No, it wasn't you, it was that india guy.
  73. "I firmly believe that Indo-Paks give one version of why they come to USA when talking to us (patriotic love, open environment etc), while amongst themselves the motive is rigidly consistent (MONEY) and sometimes sinister (like the indian lady's comment). "

    Bingo.

    I was at lunch with a guy one time and he said that Americans didn't like (whatever that british game is that's similiar to baseball) because they were too stupid to play it.

    Also, PLEASE RECALL, the indian lady at cisco that said this:

    "I'M GLAD THE AMERICANS ARE GETTING LAID OFF BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO FIND H1-B WORK RIGHT NOW."

    God, how disgusting.
  74. Tracy writes:

    "I was at lunch with a guy one time and he said that Americans didn't like (whatever that british game is that's similiar to baseball) because they were too stupid to play it."

    Well, it depends on just which 'British game' one is speaking of. The rules of cricket are incomprehensible
    and lead to madness. On the other hand it's very obvious that Americans are FAR to intelligent to play the other British game, rugby. You can tell which Brit men played rugby just by walking down the high street. The rugby players are marked by permanent physical disfigurement......

  75. "The rugby players are marked by permanent physical disfigurement...... "

    Lol, yeah, that's a rough sport.
  76. I would break my self-imposed silence only to answer a baseless allegation.

    Timothy Brandon wrote:
    "What I don't like is the "now it's our turn to take over" nor the annoying subservient attitude"

    I believe he was referring to my earlier message:
    "The real issue is not H1, J2EE, or the current economic downturn, but, finding a stable future for yourself and your future generations. This is exactly why people migrated from Europe a few hundred years ago. Its our turn now!"

    Is it really too hard to understand what I am saying here? The Europeans migrated to the US to find a better future form themselves and their future generations. Its our turn to do the same. What has that got to do with taking over?
    And, by the way, Don, I want you commend you on your optimistic views, and, would love to be able to work with you someday.
  77. adnan, "I believe he was referring to my earlier message:
    "The real issue is not H1, J2EE, or the current economic downturn, but, finding a stable future for yourself and your future generations. This is exactly why people migrated from Europe a few hundred years ago. Its our turn now!"

    Is it really too hard to understand what I am saying here? "

    No, it isn't.
  78. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Funny how this thread, which I always like to catch up on every once in a while, has now turned into a Jerry Springer candidate for the home DVD library.
    Tracy and Timothy: Dudes, I don't think you guys are racist and I don't think that you are wrong when you say that these subserviant, pious attitudes you get from immigrants are annoying. Being an immigrant myself, I have to admit I could not stop myself from cracking into a big ol' smile every morning that I woke up and went to work. But yeah, I hear ya... the thing is, when you say things like "your import/export dad", that's actually a funny comment and everybody should be laughing because it's a safe stereotype. Let's not take ourselves TOO seriously here. However, it's not so much what you are writing technically that is affronting, but what your words suggest or make people envision. For example, I thought that the bit you said about not caring if some black people look like chimps so long as they made good teachers was really offesive. Even though you will counter that you didn't mean to say this or that, well... that's the impression you gave me, and at first, I was on "your side".
    I think you guys have good intentions, but you are loose cannons. If you would both smooth out your lexicon a bit, you two would probably make a positive difference in the world. OK, lay on the rebuttals...
  79. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Sorry, I realized that I should have quoted you directly because undoubtedly you will call my misquote on me. Here was your direct quote:

    "I will hire a black programmer over a white programmer if he programs better even if his face looks like a chimp's. "

    For the love of God, have you no shame? The fact that you are trying to convince reasonable and sane people that you don't consider yourself racist is not just some token that you can throw around blindly and expect us to believe that. What comes out of your mouth is just as important as the intentions behind it.
    You can't be more than 17 years old. I find it very hard to believe that you are a professional or white collar worker anywhere in the civilized world.
    And to the ServerSide: please do not delete this thread. It's very helpful. Just do something about the kinds of people that post here who do not have the proper facilities to critique themselves and refuse to be told that their words are contrary to their arrogant beliefs.
  80. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Basil writes:

    "For the love of God, have you no shame? The fact that you are trying to convince reasonable and sane people that you don't consider yourself racist is not just some token that you can throw around blindly and expect us to believe that. What comes out of your mouth is just as important as the intentions behind it."

    Perhaps he needs an eye exam? I have never seen a human being who 'looked like a chimp'. Some managers have the beetling brows of a Neanderthal dressed up in a business suit, but that's as far as it goes...... ;-)

    Actually I agree with you, those posts were pretty incredibly offensive I thought.

    Are you an ex-Brit, Nigel?
  81. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Where is my mind tonight? Nigel? I meant Basil!
  82. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Hello Don,

        No, but some of my American friends say that I might as well be -- I am Canadian. According to them, I have an "uppity accent", a vocabularly with "words that are longer than necessary and that nobody understands", and the spelling of colour is "color", cheque is "check", and the word "roof" is supposed to be pronounced as "ruff".
       Now, see -- comments like these are acceptable are they not? They concentrate on good natured characteristics between two neighboring cultures, not on physical differences contrasted to animal icons of servitude.
       By the way Don, this topic is becoming boorish. Let's talk about job hunting, which is always important to me as I must stay employed in order to remain in the US. Where are you looking? What are you looking for? What is your progress?

    B
  83. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Don, I don't think you've been following the entire exchange, so the points you make are correct but are not refutations of what I put forward. For example, sure your irish immigrant ancestry migrated for 5X the amount of money. But they did not
    hide that intention with euphemisms did they ?

    Political correctness has been stretched to disgusting lengths. If you feel like no human looks like a chimp, I completely disagree. What you are trying to do is pretend to be an upper echelon of civilization by denying what is in front of your eyes... flared nostrils, inflated lips, black skin, sloping forhead, that is a description that can easily be mistaken (verbally or visually) for that of two different species. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. What is so disgusting about this ? As long as I don't treat them like slaves like our forefathers. How come I don't get credit for that ? Today the attitude is bending over backwards to defend the grandchildren of the slaves of the yesteryears just because our forefathers treated their ancestors badly. That isn't correct. I vouch for equal treatment, equal rights! I don't care if a negro man compares me to a (violent) polar bear. Not a leaf will be stirred if that comparison is thrown at me, nor will any of you say it is horrible. Is it because the white color is seen better than the black ? If not then why would the reaction be so drastically different ?
  84. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    "For example, sure your irish immigrant ancestry migrated for 5X the amount of money. But they did not
    hide that intention with euphemisms did they ? "

    LOL! The Irish are the most euphamistic people ever created! Ever hear the terms 'Lace Curtain Irish' and 'Shanty Irish'. Well, never was an Irish-American born whose family didn't pretend to have been gentry. Scuse me, but the odds are WAY against it! Most of us were bog-trotters.

    Don't begrudge people their illusions. The Desis are just the same as our ancestors were, with different features....

  85. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    "Political correctness has been stretched to disgusting lengths."

    I would often agree with that statement, but not in this case.

    "As long as I don't treat them like slaves like our forefathers. How come I don't get credit for that ? Today the attitude is bending over backwards to defend the grandchildren of the slaves of the yesteryears just because our forefathers treated their ancestors badly. That isn't correct. I vouch for equal treatment, equal rights!"

    Equal rights include the right to a measure of respect, even about physical qualities.

    But I agree with you that you cannot demean black people. Instead, you demean yourself. Right now, Tim Brandon, your behavior marks you as less than human!
  86. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Don, just ignore him and he will eventually go away. The more we take the bait, the deeper we become involved in his sick world where somehow he has made himself to be a politically correct racist. And I do not toss that word around lightly. Goodbye Timothy Brandon, hello real world...
  87. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    bazil, "No, but some of my American friends say that I might as well be -- I am Canadian. "

    Canada's awesome! I hear great thing about it all the time... go socialism!
  88. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Look at you! Look at US!

    The whole topic was one Java programmers experience and suggestion to another on how to survive this.

    When Internet first came in - the whole idea was to make this world a global village. Of course there was money to be mail. Companies MNC's everyone pitched in to help achieve the ideal work place, the ideal market place, the ideal world. Everyone is going to be prosperous and happy.
    At least what they thought.

    And the bubble bursts.

    And the next wave is what we saw what the Nazis' did to the Jews. Hated them cause they did not like them to be more successful than them. Absolute contempt for H1B visa holders - thier lives ; Thanks to the likes of Hitler, Osama and Tracy Milburns who hate or brew hatered because of thier own insecurity take the focus out of surviving and bring main stream hatred to the world. Spite - I see a lot of spite for the H1B workers here. Of late much more.

    I have a GF and she is student from Asia. We have been together for a 2 years and now thanks to the "H1-B visas need not apply!!!!!" - I cannot compete. That means if I loose my job , I loose everything. My friends here, my GF, my life. I dont mind going back to where I come from. But it will take me 2 years to get my life back together. Its not easy. It took me 3 years to get a credit card, make friends and get a life here.


    "A modern slave"

    Work twice as hard to get half the rewards and 4 times the hatered.

    Free Country????? Justice and Liberty for All??????Do you mean just for Americans( ;) - sounds like it is) ????

    Tracy - Once thing I can tell you -If you ever apply for a job in a company I worked with - I would definitely show to them that you are capable of hatered; bias; and not fit into a corporate culture in any MNC.

    (If you were born when aparthied was legal - you would have tortured some slaves; financed Martin Luther - who knows what you are capable of - after all the black people did not have right and you would think they should not have any right, but, of course)

    I will also immortalize you Tracy as a H1-B hater.
    And "We will not forget".

    Deepak


























  89. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    deepak pi, "Thanks to the likes of Hitler, Osama and Tracy Milburns who hate or brew hatered because of thier own insecurity take the focus out of surviving and bring main stream hatred to the world. Spite - I see a lot of spite for the H1B workers here. Of late much more. "

    Ha, nice attempt at making me look like a racist; it has nothing to do with that, you stupid IDIOT. Look at my posts. You don't even know what racism MEANS! Try this: dictionary.com It will enlighten you. H1-B's has nothing to do with racism, and my biggest complaint is farming out IT work, not h1-b's.

    Get a clue.
  90. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Chill, Deepak. H1B hate is something which happens periodically with the business cycle.

    You're problem isn't only the H1B, it is (probably) relative lack of experience. I was in precisely your position in 1982. Little experience, ton's of competition, and a 'white males need not apply' attitude apparently in the way. The single point of difference is that I could push a broom and wait it out in the US, because I am a citizen.

    I did eventually beat the odds and find a lousy-paying job, but not by beating a dead horse. See my posts above for my comments on job-search strategies for the inexperienced.

    Best of luck to you.
  91. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    "I will also immortalize you Tracy as a H1-B hater. '

    You are correct, I definitely do not think we should allow near as many in as we do. However, your turning that into the idea that I'm a racist is really, really stupid. In fact, if you said that to my wife, I'd knock you on your ASS.
  92. Fix Your Own Country First[ Go to top ]

    Deepak,
       I understand you are upset that you have lost your life here, but so have many, many Americans. And what has India given the world? Did India invent the computer? The Internet? Java? .Net? Are people around the world clamoring to get into Indian Universities? To all these questions the answer is "no." India is a country of mud streets and open sewage. We Americans and our forebears worked like hell to build this country into what it is today. And these Indians come here and just jump to the front of the line. My reply to your rants is, "Why don't you return to India and build something there?" Why must Indians come here and take advantage of all we have built. It is not an issue of hatred, it is an issue of Indians taking advantage of this situation.
       Secondly, you may be correct that there are many fat Americans. There are many lazy Americans. But how many months have I had to deal with Indians over the phone, from emails, etc, who speak this crazy, horrid kind of English with no sense of grammar. Half the emails I receive from my work associates in India are unintelligible. I have to reply and say "What did you mean?"
       I have never been without a job but I am so weary of Indians who come to this country and build nothing. They only take. They are taking advantage of this entire fine country that Americans have built. Other immigrants came to America and were content to pay their dues and work their way up. But so many of the Indians I have met want to start at the top. They BS about their abilities and then you see them on the discussion boards--EJB, Servlet, Java, etc--desperately asking for someone to come and rescue them. In one company I worked for, I created a whole series of documents that explained how our technology worked. I freely distributed them. Then, months later, I saw that one of the Indians who worked for the company had stripped off my copyright notice and was passing them off as his own. Luckily, he forgot to change the properties and so I confronted him and asked him when he wrote them. It was typical crap. My only joy is knowing that the Indians themselves are now facing competition from around the world. The rest of the developing world is gunning for India. You time in the sun will be brief and the animosity you leave behind will be lasting. If you encounter anger and hatred in your attempt to find a job, you are merely reaping the rewards of the previous Indians who have taken advantage of this situation. I say, why don't you return to India and pave some of those mud roads? Why not fix your own country before you expect to waltz into this country and undermine the entire social fabric that America is built upon. The good life in America is in danger and the threat is coming from India. We're watching and won't forget.
  93. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Basil McRae wrote:

    " No, but some of my American friends say that I might as well be -- I am Canadian. According to them, I have an "uppity accent", a vocabularly with "words that are longer than necessary and that nobody understands", and the spelling of colour is "color", cheque is "check", and the word "roof" is supposed to be pronounced as "ruff"."

    I should of guessed you were a canuk. Everyone named McRae is Canadian. Scotland exported the entire clan years ago!

    I like the Canadian accent but wouldn't call it uppity. More like wholesome. I worked for a Canadian company for a while, spent some time in Missisunga (?). Outside Toronto.

    BTW, the Neanderthal crack was a reference to a famous quote by an anthropologist that if you shaved a Neanderthal and dressed him in a business suit, nobody could tell the difference. That idea has always tickled my fancy.....

    " Now, see -- comments like these are acceptable are they not? They concentrate on good natured characteristics between two neighboring cultures, not on physical differences contrasted to animal icons of servitude."

    Yup, except that I've never heard of a chimp 'serving' anyone. In captivity yes.

    " By the way Don, this topic is becoming boorish. Let's talk about job hunting, which is always important to me as I must stay employed in order to remain in the US. Where are you looking? What are you looking for? What is your progress?"

    I'm still employed, but conditions are rapidly worsening for me personally. Unlike in the US in the UK some rather substantial monetary rights are involved. So I can't just up and quit.

    I've been working at migrating my skill base from Unix/C++ to Java/J2EE/Web Services etc. Finally after 3 years of steady effort I'm within site of my goal of becoming at least a minor expert. I have perhaps 2-3 months of effort left to get where I'm going. If I get let go there will be a subtantial cash settlement involved, so I figure I'll just live cheap for a month or two while completing the skill base I'm aiming for, then head out into the market, which hopefully will be improving by then.

    I am aiming to be a guru (again) within the next 12 months in my new skill set which is a pretty demanding goal even after a ton of work. Six months ago I thought I could do it with my present employer, but now I've about given up hope with them. They would rather see a well-explained failure than a messy success, and that isn't in my value set. They haven't been supporting at all at least lately, with a couple of honorable exceptions.

    So my strategy is either to work out the string a few more months while advancing my skill set and waiting for the recession to abate, or to cut the cord and use the severance pay to accelerate the plan. The shame is that my employer could really USE a Java guru when things turn up, but most of them are incapable of appreciating what I am doing. C'est la vie......
  94. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Don:

      I can perceive a great deal of our US peers just wishing that they were in your position right now... yes, I am alluding to the fact that unemployment is still unnaturally high over here. That's not to say that somebody with the right skillset and good communication skills will not find a job right now. I have actually laid my resume out onto the online job boards for the last couple of weeks even though I am currently employed. In these two weeks I have received 2 inquiries, and one is looking quite promising. I have applied to about 10 jobs in that time, so make your own judgments --- my take on things is that businesses are indeed recovering, but as far as absolutely needing new technologies and new developers for new projects, Web Services is about the only different player since the recession. Yes yes.. I know that other innovations have occurred since 2001, but only Web Services have the power to instantly qualify a person at the moment. That is to say, if you have J2EE experience with any decent EJB Container and also have an understanding of the why and how of Web Services, there is a wave that you could potentially jump on over here...
  95. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Basil McRae the canuk writes:

    "Web Services is about the only different player since the recession. I know that other innovations have occurred since 2001, but only Web Services have the power to instantly qualify a person at the moment. That is to say, if you have J2EE experience with any decent EJB Container and also have an understanding of the why and how of Web Services, there is a wave that you could potentially jump on over here..."

    I completely agree. I was arguing this point last week with a friend. He thought it better to develop his CORBA skills further, which is OK. But the potential 'bang for the buck' of doing a Web Services project is much greater, though also perhaps a bigger gamble. The technical viewpoint can change with lightning speed. Three months ago I had Jini and
    Web Services rated evenly, with Message EJB's with JMS a trifle behind. Jini has dropped off the scope, while I continue to think that M-EJB's have a lot of potential.
    But there seems to be zero interest in MOM around here. I'm not sure why.....

  96. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Don,

      You can't be serious -- MOMs are not popular over there in the UK?!?! That's really odd! They are all the rage in North America. Ever since JMS allowed for the SP interface, we are seeing completely portable JMS architectures that are immediately usuable in any J2EE-compliant container. This means that if the UK is heavily involved with EJB technology( which I think they are, aren't they? ), then undoubtedly they will soon be moving on to integration, workflow, and transaction issues. So this will lead them right into JMS's lap, as there is no better way to integrate an application involving remote nodes and remote JVMs than with JMS and a MOM broker( please no arguments, it's just my personal beliefs for my own reasons. I like RMI/IIOP too and all that jazz... ).
       Web Services expands that in such a way that I think is not at all risky. Web Services represents foreign language compliance with a J2EE architecture. Any mainframe, CGI, ASP page, C++ code, etc etc that can produce an XML file is now part of the J2EE gang. However, all these extra players are going to need to have their own messaging constructs and workflow measures developed as well, and this means that once the initial Web Services development is complete, you are back to JMS and JDBC. This is why I think you would make an excellent hire in the US right now -- it sounds like you've got it all: C++, java, j2ee, and so forth. Web Service project managers will be frothing at the mouth for a chance to interview you. The Fortune 1000 are going to be the first players involved in this type of work --- if you've got the contacts and the werewithal, make the move!
  97. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    "You can't be serious -- MOMs are not popular over there in the UK?!?! That's really odd! They are all the rage in North America. Ever since JMS allowed for the SP interface, we are seeing completely portable JMS architectures that are immediately usuable in any J2EE-compliant container."

    No, I meant on this website. theServerside.com. A MOM EAI thread fell completely flat not long ago, with 4 posts total, 2 by me. A JMS thread went glacial after 20 posts. Not much interest.

    "Web Services expands that in such a way that I think is not at all risky."

    Not technically risky. Career risk, basically the risk that you spend time and money learning something which has been overhyped and may collapse like a hill of beans.

    My risk amounts to about £80 worth of books and maybe 40 hours total thus far. It's the kind of thing one has to do to get on top.

    "it sounds like you've got it all: C++, java, j2ee, and so forth. Web Service project managers will be frothing at the mouth for a chance to interview you."

    Thanks. Balm to a slightly battered ego right now. I've been battered like a cod this past two weeks around here.

    I want to solidify some things a bit more before venturing back into the icy waters of the job market. A bit more playing around so's I really know whereof I speak about most of it. Almost there......
  98. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Don,

      Oh I see what you are saying... yes, do not by any means promote yourself as a Web Services developer who knows Java and C++. The Web Services aspect of a B2B integration project is relatively quick and straight-forward... no, what you should be selling yourself as is as a B2B specialist. Your technical skillset is well-suited for integration and collaboration purposes. If you have experience in B2B ( even one project will probably suffice ), you should be good to go.
      As for JMS not drawing a lot of interest -- well, that's the beauty about JMS... what's to talk about? The only way you are going to find interesting things to say about Messaging systems is when you get a new set of business requirements that may need some creativity in your development code. Otherwise, JMS on its own is nothing fantastic. All the power for this technology is built in the SP interface that the vendors bundle into their JMS drivers. All we have to do as developers is spend a couple of days learning about Pub-Sub architectures and reasons we may want to Queue instead of broadcast. Pretty simple, so there's not a lot of hoopla about it.
       I myself have a couple of JMS projects under my belt. I have saved the code on my personal disk drive for future reference, but I don't forsee this experience coming in handy TOO much -- JMS projects are unique from each other in many ways because of the business requirements.
       In other words, I like to focus on the business a lot more than on the technical aspect of development; if you do that for JMS, you will find a host of opportunity and excitement for you in this country, as B2B is started to rev up in high gear.

    B
  99. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    "I myself have a couple of JMS projects under my belt. I have saved the code on my personal disk drive for future reference, but I don't forsee this experience coming in handy TOO much -- JMS projects are unique from each other in many ways because of the business requirements."

    I have Tibco RV background, plus some personal projects with JMS and Message EJB's. I see Web Services as doing much of what CORBA, COM/DCOM, and RMI/IIOP have been doing, plus some other things. But on a far wider scope, because of shucking the incompatible transport protocols. The latter is the really powerful thing to me.

    I'm not really sure what to make of UDDI however. That part is the hype, at least for the time being.....
       
  100. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Don/Basil,
    Based on your previous messages I am assuming that you have a fairly good grasp on the broader IT picture. Currently, my firm is toying with the idea of training folks in the new MS .net technologies. What is your take on that? When it comes to Web Services I think no on comes close to MS in terms of ease-of-use and adherence to the specs. Thoughts? Advice?

  101. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Adnan, I don't know much about .NET to be perfectly honest. I have some curiosity but it has to take a back seat to Java Web Services for now. The lovely thing about Web Services is that virtually anything can be on the other end, including Perl fergoshsakes!

    Ease of use? I can believe that. Adherence? That also, seeing as how Micro$oft started it.

    Right now I think there are two smart bets on technology out there. J2EE/EJB is one, and .NET is the other. Both are going to thrive. Both will do a good job in Web Services. And with Web Services comong on strong, both are going to interconnect like never before.....
  102. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Adnan,

      I think .NET is here to stay, and I also think that MicroSoft is really making a smart move by moving into Web Services fairly and in such a way that they have invited Java developers to the party. Then again, what other choice do you have when dealing with the universal language of XML???
      Having said that, it's more important that your company chooses its architecture based on its future outlook, rather than deciding to use a .NET approach over a J2EE framework. When we say ".NET", we are talking about Web Services and the new coding methodologies that MicroSoft has implemented, such as their C# framework. When we say "J2EE", we are talking about Web Services and the existing coding methodologies that SUN already has -- Java.
       Given the fact that J2EE and .NET architectures are now completely capable of communicating with each other in a standardized and universally-supported format, the only question you have to ask is which of the two companies makes better sense for your goals.
       For me at my company, we chose J2EE because we have mainframes that are embedded with JVMs and are currently using an EJB Server to create and deploy business applications. So it makes a lot of sense for our Web Services platform to be Java based as well. We also have a MicroSoft architecture here that we seamlessly communicate with using Web Services, so we need to have a Web Services platform on that end too. But future development will be driven on our J2EE architecture, not the MicroSoft one.
      
    B
  103. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    basil, "Sorry, I realized that I should have quoted you directly because undoubtedly you will call my misquote on me. Here was your direct quote:

    "I will hire a black programmer over a white programmer if he programs better even if his face looks like a chimp's. " "

    I would argue that Timothy was only saying he'd hire an animal if they were qualfied. To be honest, I think that YOU drawing the parallel between blacks and apes makes YOU look bad, not him!

    Also, for the record, I'd hire Zimbu the monkey over any human - the guy works the mouse with his tail!
  104. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    I just took the last 45 minutes to glaze over the last month's postings -- I feel kind of naive jumping in here today even though I seem to said the right things to the right people. But I want to bring up an important issue that I feel very strongly about at the risk of sending this message board back into racial overtones.
    Apparently this Tracy Milburn fellow has been gracing this messageboard for quite some time. I noticed that Tracy's views at first were quite relevant, but as time went on and more and more people supported his point of view, the postings got a little bit off track. Now Tracy has been threatening physical violence to those who enrage him -- hehehe sounds worse than I make it, I know Tracy.
    Tracy -- just for the record: I want to say that I completely agree with you on the sole point of your assertion that the American economy is being ruined by the farming out of cheap labor. I also think that the practice of paying ANY IMMIGRANT slave wages to do the job that a perfectly qualified American could have done hurt a lot of innocent Americans during the 90s, regardless of their ethnic background. I just want to say that in my particular case I have never found a problem getting a job in the US. My english and communication skills are great, and my technical savvy is always up to par.
    But I would go right back to Canada if, in the midst of looking for a job, the potential employer told me that I had to accept a wage lower than the acceptable limit. ie. if I am not treated fairly here, then I don't want to be here at all. The idea that any employer can find people around the world to work for chicken feed repulses me; furthermore, it RUINS this American economy that we hold so dear. I love the US, but she has acted like a bitch sometimes. I won't be a part of that.
    Just my two cents...
  105. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Basil, "Now Tracy has been threatening physical violence to those who enrage him -- hehehe sounds worse than I make it, I know Tracy. "

    Darned right, when a guy takes my comment that h1-b's are bad and calls me a racist right to my face. I'd love to see him say that in person, that's all.

    "Tracy -- just for the record: I want to say that I completely agree with you on the sole point of your assertion that the American economy is being ruined by the farming out of cheap labor. I also think that the practice of paying ANY IMMIGRANT slave wages to do the job that a perfectly qualified American could have done hurt a lot of innocent Americans during the 90s, regardless of their ethnic background. "

    That's exaclty right, and that's all I was saying. I consider an "American" to be someone who is a citizen. That Adnan jerk "made for me" my definition to be a WASP, and I took hard exception to that.

    As far as my comments drifting off topic, they did in parellel with everyone else's. Take care
  106. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Naw, I get the feeling that Adnan is a good guy made defensive by comments that are truly meant to be harmful... anywho, point being is that the subject of immigration into this country is not an open and shut case. It's extremely complex. I don't mind using me as an example if you don't mind my rambling.
    I worked my butt off in Canada to get to where I am today, and naturally, I want to be paid as much money as I can get and I want the best opportunities I can find. I found an American employer during the dot.com boom that had more jobs than the US market could handle at the time. Don't get me wrong: I am not averse to going to other countries to achieve these goals. If Bangalore becomes the next Silicon Valley.. well, I hope that Indian immigration is ready to start issuing some H1Bs of their own, because I want in!!
    Having said that, I think the issue is now that the US economy is flat-lining, what are we as immigrants supposed to do? I still have my job from '99 -- I can honestly say that with what I have learned about my company, there is nobody in the country who could replace me without costing my employer a substantial amount of money. Also, I am still happy to work for them, so if both parties are satisfied there is no reason to go back to Canada, right? I'm sure you will agree with this. A problem would occur however, if I were to be laid off. In this scenario, I think it would be detrimental to the US economy to rehire me because I would be evenly matched against American candidates. No, I am not brownnosing here -- I truly believe this, these are my ethical foundations.
    I am fully prepared to go back to Canada if this should occur. I am on the kind of Visa whereby if I am not employed, I have about a week to leave the US, so I prepared myself and my family for this. The first thing we did was save a big nest egg in case this should happen. Thanks to the large wads of money that were being paid out, I am ready at any time. But what about those poor blokes from other countries who were being sweatshopped by unscrupulous American employers? They were not given the same opportunity to prepare as I was, and as a result these poor souls are stranded here and scared. I have a lot of empathy for these people and I think that in lieu of US government taking responsibility for capitalism gone evil, the American society must bear the burden of either paying the cost of re-locating them back to their home countries or allow them a fast track Green Card so that they can be absorbed into the tax paying structure that will earn them the right to be here, whether they get hired to be programmers or pizza delivery people.
    See? Complex... I have to say that in retrospect, America made a big mistake issuing out all these temporary work Visas. What should have been done is to have Green Card applications become more reasonable to get( currently it is 3 years to get one.. a company can live and die twice over in that time! ). If the INS was doling out Green Cards instead of these Cracker Jack visas, there would have been a lot more scrutiny and a lot more thought put into what was really going on. We would not be in this position we are in now.
  107. W[ Go to top ]

    {{Equal rights include the right to a measure of respect, even about physical qualities.

    But I agree with you that you cannot demean black people. Instead, you demean yourself. Right now, Tim Brandon, your behavior marks you as less than human}}

    Right, if you can call me "less than human" for asserting equal rights for all regardless of color, then that exposes the little potential Hitler in you. See how vehemently you and McRae come out when hearing remarks that are deemed anti-black. Whereas if the measure of disrespect is shown by blacks against whites as in: "white boy", "white man can't dance", "white man can't jump", "white b**ch*", "white trash" etc. I'm sure you'd not raise the same brouhaha because "oh it's okay if they do it because they have suffered oh so much". That's more repulsive than me affirming equal rights to them whilst taking exception to their physiognomy.

    By the way, Ross Perot is not as dumb as you think. His oil dynamics comments are piercingly accurate and neglected by the mainstream media.

    Also, in retrospect, one of my remarks about the 70 jets being too complex for them to use, may be construed racist, and therefore I withdraw that remark as it ostensibly fits into the definition of racism.

    That'll conclude my contribution to this line of exchange.
  108. W[ Go to top ]

    "Right, if you can call me "less than human" for asserting equal rights for all regardless of color, then that exposes the little potential Hitler in you. See how vehemently you and McRae come out when hearing remarks that are deemed anti-black."

    Timothy, I parsed that sentence very carefully to convey my meaning very precisely, but I will explain a little further. Comparing human beings to apes is sub-human behavior. If and when you cease such comparisons you may earn promotion to human status once the memory has faded.

    "Whereas if the measure of disrespect is shown by blacks against whites as in: "white boy", "white man can't dance", "white man can't jump", "white b**ch*", "white trash" etc. I'm sure you'd not raise the same brouhaha because "oh it's okay if they do it because they have suffered oh so much". That's more repulsive than me affirming equal rights to them whilst taking exception to their physiognomy."

    I normally completely ignore such people regardless of their race. What you don't understand is that there is absolutely no such thing as 'blacks' or 'whites'. There are only individuals who possess a certain cast of skin color which is among the least important of their characteristics. A 'white' cannot respond to something which 'blacks' do, or vise-versa. You respond to individual offensiveness by insulting every 'black' on the planet. Thus offending many people who would never dream of insulting you.

    Why do I bother to rebuke you? Because in other contexts you are an interesting correspondent. Therefore you have demoted yourself on this board in the eyes of your peers. I wish to make this fact plain to you so you have the chance to repair your behavior.

    Apart from this last post I intent to follow Basil' advice and completely ignore you.

    "That'll conclude my contribution to this line of exchange."

    Excellent. The best decision you've made thus far!

  109. W[ Go to top ]

    Don, "Excellent. The best decision you've made thus far! "

    rofl
  110. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    "Having said that, I think the issue is now that the US economy is flat-lining, what are we as immigrants supposed to do? "

    It's actually pretty simple, we should scale waaaay back on the h1-b's and, if you're one of them that gets chosen to go back, then you should.

    As for what it would do to your employer, too bad, they hired you in the first place, they took that risk imho. Good luck
  111. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Tracy,

      I second the motion. I have no qualms going back if that's the way it has to be to rid this economy of its stupidity. However -- if only it were such an open and shut case. It's not. Because there are no logical statistics to back up any of our theories we must go by common sense assumptions; tell me if you agree with this one:

      Assuming that H1B visa holders who are currently employed are employed because their employers need them to stay at work, can we aslo assume that the work they do for the American company is important, necessary, and desired? I think we can. Therefore, these people should stay.
      Assuming that the H1B visa holders who are currently unemployed are unemployed because their employers no longer need them, we should insist that they abide by the original intentions of the visa contract, and return to their country.
       Let's leave the H1B'ers that should stay out of the argument and concentrate on the real issue: those that are unemployed and not leaving because they intend to stay in America forever. To these people I would like to say that you are ruining it for the rest of us by not fulfilling your obligations. But that is not my complete stance on the topic: I also think that America is partly responsible for this epidemic because a lot of these H1B'ers were brought over here and abused by their employers in sweatshop conditions. Shame on them, but capitalism is a sharp sword that we have all pledged to live and die on. Sometimes that means that innocent people get burned, and that applies to both American citizens and immigrants. Just something to get us to think,
       Tracy, with all due respect, I would like to submit to you that I do expect more from your response rather than saying it's simple and that everyone with an H1B should get out of dodge. You and I both know that you are more intelligent than that. It is evident from your previous posts that you recognize the entire situation and see that the American companies which brought these immigrants here are just as responsible, hence your disdain for Cisco( that was you who mentioned them, wasn't it? ). It is also obvious that you possess empathy, so I know that it is not a stretch for you to apply that empathy to immigrants who were treated like crap unfairly. I think that if more Americans like you were able to go out and turn some heads in the way you are capable of, there would be some real changes in the system. It starts in places like these messageboards. We need to tell this country that YES we need immigrants but NO we won't bring them in this country if it means that they will be left on the street with no support. Let's do this the right way.

    B
  112. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    "Assuming that H1B visa holders who are currently employed are employed because their employers need them to stay at work, can we aslo assume that the work they do for the American company is important, necessary, and desired? I think we can. "

    Right, so, when they leave, an American can take their place who probably desparately needs to feed an American family, as opposed to someone who is more than likely sending their money back home to another country.

    'Let's leave the H1B'ers that should stay out of the argument and concentrate on the real issue: those that are unemployed and not leaving because they intend to stay in America forever. To these people I would like to say that you are ruining it for the rest of us by not fulfilling your obligations. "

    That's a really stupid comment imo; to ask people to leave their family and roots because the economy is in a slump is really being biased, you have to admit. You can't expect to get the same amount of importance as someone who has been here for generations.

    "It is evident from your previous posts that you recognize the entire situation and see that the American companies which brought these immigrants here are just as responsible, hence your disdain for Cisco( "

    You're correct, I feel Cisco should have their asses fined off for layoff off citizens and replacing them with h1b's. And I do agree with you that we shouldn't bring them over when we know they might be "eft out on the streets" as you put it, that's not fair to them, or to have them treated like slaves like my friend Raam was. That's not fair to them either. However, they do come on their own accord, and must rezlize this country revolves around the almight "bottom line" and recognize the company's motivation appropriately.

    imho, cisco is basically evil, from the top down. They also periodically fire their "bottom" 3% even when times are good, yet their executives are allowed to get away with economic murder by saying, "Oh, we never development models for a downturn like this; sorry." How ruthless, and how arrogant. Shame on cisco.
  113. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Tracy, I don't understand what you intend to point out when you say "...That's a really stupid comment imo; to ask people to leave their family and roots because the economy is in a slump is really being biased, you have to admit. You can't expect to get the same amount of importance as someone who has been here for generations..." . Who are you talking about when you insinuate the bias that he/she should leave their family/roots? I did not suggest that Americans leave their country, so what do you mean?
  114. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    I must have misunderstood you; I thought you were saying that it's citizens that should leave the country so that h1b's can have work... here's the statement that made me think you were somewhat-sarcastically saying that:

    "those that are unemployed and not leaving because they intend to stay in America forever. To these people I would like to say that you are ruining it for the rest of us by not fulfilling your obligations"
  115. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Regrets.. my statement is made clearer like so:

       "...Let's leave the H1B'ers that are legitimately employed out of this argument; instead, let's concentrate on the real issue: the immigrants that are unemployed and continue to remain in this country. These are the people that I as an immigrant am pointing the finger at because they are ruining it for the rest of us by not fulfilling their obligation to go back to their home country if they are not able to find employment..."

      In other words, what the US intended to do with foreigners is only permit them to be in the US so long as there was work for them. Once all that extra work goes ( as all work eventually does ), then so do we. I have no problem with this, because it was a mutual good feeling for me -- I get to have a great opportunity and a great salary, and the Americans get to keep their economy going.
      If only it could be so cut and dried though. Wouldn't it be nice if the US was able to tell all H1B'ers that on such-and-such a date they would be expected to leave regardless of the state of the economy? If this was the case, there would be no hard feelings on either side.
      But this is not what is happening. What is happening is that regardless of the downturn in the economy, your American companies still want to keep the immigrants that they have on staff -- not the sweatshop boys, I'm talking about the people that they respect and pay fairly, people like me. Given the chance, I would definitely consider becoming American as I am getting to like this country. But that doesn't mean that I would try to put another American out of work by beating them to a job opportunity. That actually works against my goals because every time an temporary immigrant does this, the american economy gets weaker and weaker.
       Basically, I think that if the US offered all the H1B'ers citizenships and got them to start spending ALL their money here in the US, that would be the best solution. Even though there would be people that would say "But we don't NEED them here right now, our economy sucks!"... well, that seems to be the price that *America* must pay for ever inviting the immigrants over here in the first place.
       Remember, this is a two-way street. Look at our countries, Tracy -- because of NAFTA the Canadians feel that the US is raping the countries resources, both labor and lumber. The Americans resent the fact that their employees are being put out of work because lumber mills find it cheaper to cut a cheque instead of a tree. Both countries are at fault for this -- the best we can do now is minimize the damage, not call for complete eradication of our deserved medicine.

    B
       
  116. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    "Wouldn't it be nice if the US was able to tell all H1B'ers that on such-and-such a date they would be expected to leave regardless of the state of the economy? If this was the case, there would be no hard feelings on either side.
      But this is not what is happening. "

    You're correct, companies here exist for making a buck on the bottom line, often using unethical means. That's a separate issue from the h1b's; that's a "punish corporation" issue. However, there is also the separate issue of "when companies do that, they put Americans out of jobs." That's the part I am arguing is bad. Fine, so punish the companies for what they're doing. Either way though, h1b's need to be reduced always.

    "The Americans resent the fact that their employees are being put out of work because lumber mills find it cheaper to cut a cheque instead of a tree. "

    That's an environmental issue; I could care less how many people get put out of work because of saving trees. I enjoy breathing clean air.

    "Basically, I think that if the US offered all the H1B'ers citizenships and got them to start spending ALL their money here in the US, that would be the best solution. "

    Actually, I'd be willing to agree with that if we could reduce the # of h1b's. But yes, I agree, that would keep the $ here. It sickens me to hear of an h1b getting a job while cisco lays off Americans who have to sell their houses and cars and have to tell their kids they're out of work.
  117. Weird divergence[ Go to top ]

    Basil writes:

    "Apparently this Tracy Milburn fellow has been gracing this messageboard for quite some time."

    Tracy is the most entertaining person writing on this board. He and I disagree on much but like each other.

    "Tracy -- just for the record: I want to say that I completely agree with you on the sole point of your assertion that the American economy is being ruined by the farming out of cheap labor."

    I agree also, though I believe that people who focus on the H1B issue to the exclusion of other things are focussing on the pine cone and missing the tree, much less the forest.

    In any case H1B visas are small competitition to experienced people because H1B's mostly apply to entry-level and just above. The final factor is the rise in wages in India, which has leached the economic incentive out of the worst practices.

    "I also think that the practice of paying ANY IMMIGRANT slave wages to do the job that a perfectly qualified American could have done hurt a lot of innocent Americans during the 90s, regardless of their ethnic background."

    It certainly hurt some Americans because I personally witnessed one case at Lucent in 1995. I cannot say how badly they were hurt because I don't know what happened to them afterwards. The economy wasn't too bad at the time....

    But easily as important an issue is the question of whether this action was good management or managerial malpractice. I'm inclined to the latter view, because the replacements were not nearly as good, which threw additional burden on the rest of the team. I also contend that Lucent lost a lot in employee and contractor morale. This action was a factor though perhaps not the deciding factor in my leaving them 2 months after. I took it as confirmation of what I already knew, that Lucent was not committed to excellence and unwilling to pay for excellent people. Lucent got exactly what it paid for, and ceded leadership in it's industry to Cisco, Nortel, and European companies such as Alcatel. They are now weak and even if they survive will be swallowed by a better-managed rival. Looking for a buyer.

    A sad fate for the company which used to be known as Bell Labs.

    "I just want to say that in my particular case I have never found a problem getting a job in the US. My english and communication skills are great, and my technical savvy is always up to par."

    Neither have I. My longest period on the beach was 2 months, which is excellent for an independent contractor.
  118. don, "In the US Indians can become management or start companies. One of the richest men in Silicon Valley (an Indian) began his career as a co-founder of Sun before going on to become the major shaper behind the Optical hardware industry. THAT is being an insider, gentlemen! "

    Yes, and how interesting, where did Sun recently send TONS of jobs to?

    Wasn't it India?

    For shame.
  119. Tracy Milburn wrote|:

    "Yes, and how interesting, where did Sun recently send TONS of jobs to?

    Wasn't it India?

    For shame."

    Well, it's a little more complex than you apparently appreciate. For one thing, the Indian co-founder of Sun
    left the company some time in the late 80's. He is much more intimately involved these days with optical networking companies like Redbank Networks and Jupiter (which makes optical routers). Scott McNealy calls the shots at Sun. OTOH I believe there are a lot of Indians at Sun today, some in major management positions. So what?
  120. Hello Everybody,
            I would like to address all these comments in my views and experience as a software professional. I have been in this business since 95 after graduated from an Indian university. I started to work with a US offshore facilities at Bangalore in India. By looking back and studying the current situations I would like to high light the following points.
    1. America is an open market and it always appreciate and depends upon the best talent all over the world. So American business always have an onsite or offshore attachment to get the process done at good and bad time.

    2. America is an open country where all religion, races and communities are accepted according to their qualifications. If anybody have a doubt on that just look around the back bones of any firms and excellent products selling on US name all over the world, they are all made by excellent people who invited and participated in hard working working mentality of American firms.

    3. America is not own by white or Aryans who came over here, those who came here from Europe's( Those who are behind the white superiority complex) came here for doing their farm business. According to number of studies Whites average IQ( especially in mathematics, physics and medical fields ) is below the brown colored people( Those who are smart enough to complete a software program by one night).

    4. White people where dominated in head positions in business in America because they have a long duration of experience in doing atleast coffee shop business in USA, not because they are excellent or smart enough to do that or atleast their financial background and back account developed from ancient country side southern farms helped their kids to send some private school in USA and atleast could able to improve their IQ a little.

    5. Software industry is not a business for 40 hours / week freaky guys. In order to understand this I advise all of the freaky guys who lost the job in USA to take a vacation to Bangalore India. In Bangalore all world famous software firms( Microsoft, oracle, Sun micro, BEA .... a few of them) have 24/7 working software development offices all them have more than 5000 employees still. In order to get a job their, I am telling you all of your American fellow, just a university degree is not enough, you should have a excellent level of IQs, and problems solving skills, and hard working mentality. Thos who talk about week-end plans, Dating new chicks and worrying about take care about the kids from previous relationship, I don't think they can get or manage a software job in current market, So those who are qualified will remain in this business according to their hard work and ability to complete the jobs on time.

    5. Regarding the H1 Visa, Any qualified person can come to USA on the basis of his talent and he can contribute to this nations growth. I am sure a lot of illegal people also came to this great nation through H1 visa hole, I think that is caused by ignorance of less efficient south western clerics working on US consulates abroad.

    6. In all business, their foundation or the theory for growth is "get the work done as soon as possible with less expenses" As long as that living truth remain there, those who are ready to put more effort with less pay is attractive to have a job. Example, after 9/11, I did a job an contractor till, Jan 15th 2002 for 85,000$ and what I have promised to the firm is that , I will launch the application by December 25th of 2001 with a team of 4 java developer, 3 front end developer and two Unix people. I have been got laid-off from # 1 middleware company in August 2001. I never worried about that even after I lost a huge number of shares. I worked hard and put a lot of personal time to launch the application and keep my promise to the company for which I architect the application. Some of the white fellow around me were jealous at that moment because I made such a good money is a short time. In my knowledge all it matter is your hard work and IQ level.

    7. Even though things are pretty bad in USA, experienced Indian visa holders have very good chances in India right now to get a good and highly paid Indian salary in all famous multinational software firms scattered all over India right now. The reason people like me again being here even the situations are bad here, As personally I believe This national have done a lot of good things for me, and gave me the great opportunities, in returns I have contributed a lot back and paid a good money as tax and even made millions of American dollars business for my US Company( old middle ware company employer) from Europe.

    8. One more thing, those whore are too proud of being white and rich color full, I have dates blue eyed, white colored chicks a lot from Wisconsin to San Francisco and now in Los Angeles, As long as you are being nice,gentle, smart, financially secure, a cultured and educated woman won't won't care much about your color they only care about your power in bed and warm body, other wise you might have to participate in some Chinese or Taiwanese marriage organizations who provide chick pics for finding American white husbands. They just care about your American citizenship and color, because they are just looking for an option to escape from their county.

    9. Finally, just by writing this notes I never mean to hurt anybody's feelings or their views as long as being a professional, please try to avoid the nonsense's comments from good conversations and a very tight economic situations like now. Everybody can be good and happy , if they are ready to look around the world and open their eyes to look into the problems and solutions, instead of barking like street dog.
  121. Shiji,

    "4. White people where dominated in head positions in business in America because they have a long duration of experience in doing atleast coffee shop business in USA, not because they are excellent or smart enough to do that or atleast their financial background and back account developed from ancient country side southern farms helped their kids to send some private school in USA and atleast could able to improve their IQ a little.
    "

    Again, I'm having a really hard time udnerstanding you, but from what I can tell, you almost seem like you're posting JUST to get people angry. Oh, I'm sure you really feel the way you're saying you do, but I have a feeling you're saying these things just to piss people off, and you should be glad you're too scared to say these things to the fellow workers around you, you keyboard warrior.

    "Thos who talk about week-end plans, Dating new chicks and worrying about take care about the kids from previous relationship, I don't think they can get or manage a software job in current market, So those who are qualified will remain in this business according to their hard work and ability to complete the jobs on time"

    Yeah, at that idiotic comment, I pretty much stopped reading your post.
  122. Shiji,

       Thank you for your ignorance-laden, arrogant posting. I have now had a epiphany about racism: it is a definitely a reaction to thoughts like yours.
       Shiji, you may have a high IQ, and I do not doubt that you have done some great things here in the US. I think you would make any IT company more valuable by being on their staff.
       But do me and every other person who hates discrimination a big favor and get out of the US. People like you make the social situation even worse in the US. Your attitude is absolutely deplorable. You have obviously stereotyped Americans as being inferior to Indians. For example your comments concerning your impeccable resume and your envious private life are intended to condescendingly insinuate that most of your American peers are not as smart or responsible as you.
       Let me tell you that some of the smartest people I have ever met are American. And I have travelled to a lot of different countries. The issue here is not whether or not America should hire immigrants -- it's whether or not hiring immigrants is a practical thing to do. Yes, some of the posts here have been immature and uncalled for, but if you are so mature and have such an great intelligence, you should have the capacity to ignore such ridiculousness. Also keep in mind that including yours, I have read stupid ignorant posts from both Indians and Americans.
       The bottom line is that you have no respect for American culture and the American people's desire to retain it. You regard America as a big company that pays you a lot of money to lend us your superior intelligence. Well you know what? If you ever step out of your cubicle in your ivory tower wherever you are working and get to know the other side of America, where people care about other people and aren't just out to make a buck, you will come to realize that you are a guest in this country, and you have no right to take your stance in this argument.
       Again, people like you ruin it for the rest of us...

    B
  123. "...You regard America as a big company that pays you a lot of money to lend us your superior intelligence..."

    hehehe... after reading that sentence I realized that by using the word "us", it made it sound like I too, am American! Just goes to show the lengths a typical Canadian will go to when provoked! ;-]

    By the way Shaji, I am an immigrant working in the US as well, and I have never regarded myself as having the God-given right to tell this country what their immigration policy should be. I and a lot of my fellow Canadians working in the US have been preparing to leave the US both financially and mentally ever since we arrived here years ago. The fact that you are taking the misguided position that you are just proves that you plan on staying here longer than your Visa will allow. Now, whyever would you want to live in a land like this, Shaji? That would be a contradiction of your beliefs wouldn't it?

    I could go on and on, your post is just wide open for endless criticism... let me end off by saying that if the shoe was on the other foot, and India had hundreds of thousands of Americans pouring into Bangalore and New Delhi, only then would you be able to see the point that the Americans are trying to make on this messageboard. And boy, I don't doubt that there would be racist assertions being made by the crazies in your part of the world -- they would be under the the exact same lines as the crazies in America are making.

    At the risk of sounding conceited, let me suggest that me being a proud Canadian, I hope you take my post as a legitimate and intelligent counter argument to your points. In my country, we live in harmony with Indians, Chinese, Americans, Germans, Czechoslovakians, Russians, British, French, Italians, Greeks, Iraqis, Iranians, Pakistanis, Afghanis, Japanese, Taiwanese, Australians, Swedes, Finnish, Norweigens, Danish, Spanish, Belgians, Phillipinos, Ethiopians, South Africans, Argentinians, and and and... hmmm.. what have I left out? Anyone?

    Point is, you do not have the same appreciation of culture and other country's needs.
  124. Basil, don't let the arrogant foll get under you're skin.

    He reminds me of the first Indian guy I ever worked with. I learned C memory management from him. I had a lot to impart but he never could be bothered to listen. I ended up knowing more about memory management (and a lot else) than he did.

    So I figure I was the winner. BTW, he had a superiority complex because he turned out twice as many LOC's a day than I did. Had a look at his code and learned why. He was putting all the working code under each case statement in a switch statement. Doing this multiplies your LOC's 7X (in this case) and makes maintenance a nightmare.

    Course I couldn't tell him that because he was a genius and I wasn't. But for some resaon my code worked better....

    BTW, most Indian guys are nice kids. Just as unasuming as anyone. But arrogance doesn't overlook any national group as our friend Shaji insists on showing us....
  125. "Course I couldn't tell him that because he was a genius and I wasn't. "

    Ya, we're so stupid... guys like Einstein, Newton and Hawkins, the dumbest "non brown skinned" (to use his terminology) people ever.

    "BTW, most Indian guys are nice kids. Just as unasuming as anyone. "

    Or though it would seem... I thought the one guy was pretty nice until he made the comment about Americans being too stupid to learn that cricket.
  126. {{Definitely true, and just think, these are the kinds of guys that are being allowed to come here and work, make fun of us, then send all the money they make back home, just like a leech.}}
    I beg to differ. The relationship of a leech to the host is very much one-sided. The relationship of Shaji's to their employers is symbiotic, so there's a big difference.

    {{Ya, we're so stupid... guys like Einstein, Newton and Hawkins, the dumbest "non brown skinned" (to use his terminology) people ever. }}
    Shaji and I were both referring to IQ differences of caucasians versus asians of the general population. Brilliant minds crop up from every corner of the world, and has done so for eons.


    {{I thought the one guy was pretty nice until he made the comment about Americans being too stupid to learn that cricket.}}
    I've actually played the game. It's fun batting. Can't bowl well. Hate to watch cricket on TV, it's just too long, sometimes stretching for days. But to be fair, the game is a rage in South Asia, U.K., South Africa, West Indies, Australia, N.Z. etc. Btw, can any of you guess right off the bat what the most popular sport in the world is ?
  127. "Btw, can any of you guess right off the bat what the most popular sport in the world is ? "

    Football. What Americans and Canadians call soccer.
  128. Ah, the 'ephiphany' that I predicted materialized. But the canadian fellow (or as Homer Simpson says, America junior) should not be so hard on the indian. After all, guess who helped India enrich their heavy
    elements ?

    {{ get to know the other side of America, where people care
     about other people and aren't just out to make a buck, ... }}
    My goodness! I hate to say this but America is by far the most materialistic country on the planet. The other side of America is a fantasy we live vicariously through best selling chicken soup for the soul books, what with crazy work hours, broken homes, drugs, cheating, obesity, etc. Not that this is a refutation of the above, but our lives are (or sadly, has become) 99.99% self-interest, and the rest is the 'care'. We wish the percentages weren't so one-sided.

    Giving fast track citizenship to H1B's wouldn't be a solution, because of the sheer number of H1B's applied for and approved. The immigration service is doing the best it can with the limited resources it is granted.

    Shaji, the fact that you were hired with that kind of communication 'skills' shows how great america is. Or maybe it demonstrates that you only need to be fluent in java speak. But I have to give it to you man, you probably make more than any of us. $ 20 k per month, good for you. Is that
    bungalow in Bangalore furnished already ?

    You're also right about the IQ factor, it has been established in various studies that asians have higher IQ's than caucasians. India also churns out the highest number of engineers in the world. There is a high stress on education in the east. The parents there differ from the parents here in that they haven't spared the rod, literally. This pays enormous dividends. So how is it that America leads despite lacking in strength of basic education ? It's the high end research and systematic milking and assimilation of intellectual creme de la cremes of the world for this research. In my opinion, as a side note,
    India does produce the best looking dames in the world. Refer to Miss World and Miss Universe shows of the past 7 years.

    Shaji's experience with blue eyed chicks from SF to LA brings to mind the Anna Nicole Smith's of the nation, and reminiscent of the oldest story of humanity: Men want sex, women want money.

    So my questions to Shaji actually boils down to: What was your 85 k project about and what company was it for ?

    By the way, if anyone hasn't heard their standalone PC's latest pentium processor's cooling fan whirr in a while, then
    try .Net's XML schema tool, the cumbersome beast will bring your machine to its knees. I wish I could look 5 years down the road and see whether MS manages to lure Java developers into .NET using sneaky JLC tools. And whoever earlier on suggested that newcomers try and get on the
    .NET bandwagon... the learning curve is Mount Fuji. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on pesky bugs already being reported on .NET. It remains to be seen if it can withstand enterprise level development stress pounding.

    PS: No Milburn, I haven't seen that chimp snippet of Dilbert.
  129. "I wish I could look 5 years down the road and see whether MS manages to lure Java developers into .NET using sneaky JLC tools."

    I suspect that they won't lure too many Java types too far into C#, because .NET still lacks the depth and portability of Java. I intend to dabble with it as a sideline sometime.

    "And whoever earlier on suggested that newcomers try and get on the .NET bandwagon... the learning curve is Mount Fuji."

    I believe I'm the person you are poking fun at. My point is that there are two major development markets out there, Java and .NET. One can make a living in either market.

    While I have no idea what the learning curve is for .NET, I'll point out that lack of initial complexity ought to be the smallest of factors in selecting an environment to learn in. For onr thing, it reduces the cost and effort needed to enter the field, which will tend over time to reduce the rate you can charge. If .NET is all that easy, then one will be able to get $30 an hour tops.

    Far more important is the depth of the market and it's potential. I see Java as occupying perhaps 60-65% of the development market, with .NET at maybe 30%.

    "I'm keeping my fingers crossed on pesky bugs already being reported on .NET. It remains to be seen if it can withstand enterprise level development stress pounding."

    Good point. Remember how long it took Windoze to get up to snuff? It will be a while I think. I wonder how much of the buzz is marketing hype like the hype which M$ put up for NT.

    I think the major effect of .NET will be to allow VB and C# to talk to each other better and to allow existing VB and C# types to compete somewhat with Java programmers, which they could not before.
  130. Timothy, "{{ get to know the other side of America, where people care
     about other people and aren't just out to make a buck, ... }}
    My goodness! I hate to say this but America is by far the most materialistic country on the planet. The other side of America is a fantasy we live vicariously through best selling chicken soup for the soul books, what with crazy work hours, broken homes, drugs, cheating, obesity, etc. Not that this is a refutation of the above, but our lives are (or sadly, has become) 99.99% self-interest, and the rest is the 'care'. We wish the percentages weren't so one-sided. "

    You are absolutely correct sir. Anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously new to the country.

    " beg to differ. The relationship of a leech to the host is very much one-sided. The relationship of Shaji's to their employers is symbiotic, so there's a big difference.
    "

    Lol

    "Btw, can any of you guess right off the bat what the most popular sport in the world is ? "

    Don't have to guess, I know - it's soccer.
  131. "Shiji, you may have a high IQ, and I do not doubt that you have done some great things here in the US. I think you would make any IT company more valuable by being on their staff. "

    Lol!

    "The bottom line is that you have no respect for American culture and the American people's desire to retain it. You regard America as a big company that pays you a lot of money to lend us your superior intelligence. "

    Definitely true, and just think, these are the kinds of guys that are being allowed to come here and work, make fun of us, then send all the money they make back home, just like a leech.
  132. Shaji,
    At first I thought that I would not respond to your comments, but, I am finding it increasingly harder to swallow some of the negativity that came from your keyboard. Its almost like you're providing gun-powder to the canons of the likes of Timothy Brandon, who are probably jumping with joy right now and saying, "See, I told ya so!".
    A few days ago, I went to see my uncle who's spending the last days of his life in a nursing home in Texas. He immigrated to the US a long time ago, a time when he still remembers drinking from a separate fountain. We started talking about some of the things people had said at the server side. I then asked him about his views, in the after-math of 9/11, and why would new immigrants still want to settle in the U.S. Instead of giving me a long lecture, he just said, "Because people find happiness and peace of mind over here."
    For some people such as yourself, happiness probably means having a big car and a bungalow somewhere in Bangalore. To many others, like myself, it means not being harrassed by the police, not having to bribe the officials to even breathe, not having to spend time amongst people who consider it their god-given right to end the lives of people who do not conform to their relgious beliefs. I know that people have accused me of "brown-nosing" before, but, I feel no shame in stating the truth. I, and my family, are happier in the United States. And, we've been around the world. I think every culture and religion is fifty percent good and fifty percent bad. Its just that we tend to focus on the good half of our own and the bad half of others'. I know that U.S. is a land of, as someone mentioned earlier, "fairy tales, and leprachauns." Maybe so, but, I like to focus on the fairy tales. According to this fairy tale, I come to America, seize the window of opportunity, and become a successful role-model to many future generations who have yet to arrive. And, once again, please, this in no way implies that the immigrants have any hidden-agendas such as "taking over" or starting a revolt. We have enough of this crap where we came from. And, I find this whole concept of comparing IQ levels amongst different races rather ridiculous. About the only purpose, such comparisons will serve, is to create more hatred and racism.
    Shaji, perhaps, your comments were an angry reaction to the comments by the likes of Tracy Milburn and Timothy Brandon. But, trust me, these views do not represent the mainstream views of this society. My experience has been that for every Tracy Milburn I found ten Don Stadlers. Now, Tracy would probably call me a stupid jerk, and invite me to meet him somewhere in Texas, where he can duke it out with me. To that I say, no thanks. I would much rather befriend Don and Basil and keep working toward the goal of a pluralistic society. Soon, the economy will get back on track, and this whole H1-B bashing will simply fade away.
    Lastly, Basil writes: "Let me tell you that some of the smartest people I have ever met are American. And I have travelled to a lot of different countries."
    God forbid, if I, with my brown-skin, had said something like that it would have annoyed some people to no extent :)
  133. Adnan,

    Some of your post is respect-worthy. This was not:

    "But, trust me, these views do not represent the mainstream views of this society. My experience has been that for every Tracy Milburn I found ten Don Stadlers"

    Again, you and I disagree, and you keep slinging mud about me, then you act like I'm a tyrrant because I ask you to say the things to my face you're saying behind your keyboard.

    "Now, Tracy would probably call me a stupid jerk, and invite me to meet him somewhere in Texas, where he can duke it out with me. To that I say, no thanks"

    For you, this is a very good thing. I also would predict that others guys around you would feel the same way I do if you said to them some of the things you have said to me behind your keyboard.

    I'm done talking to you.

  134. Tracy Milburn writes:

    "Again, you and I disagree, and you keep slinging mud about me, then you act like I'm a tyrrant because I ask you to say the things to my face you're saying behind your keyboard."

    Tracy, I would pure LOVE to know how you read people's minds the way you do?!!!! If I could master the trick It would save me a lot of trouble.

    Can you consider, just for a moment, the possibility that Adnan might be on the level? He certainly stuck me that way even before the compliment.

    "For you, this is a very good thing. I also would predict that others guys around you would feel the same way I do if you said to them some of the things you have said to me behind your keyboard."

    Has he been emailing you? Or is it mindreading again?

  135.    Yah, I must agree -- Tracy, you have some very thought-provoking and interesting views, but you need to learn how to take some s--t. Regardless of the color or size of the turds, show the classy part of your personality by refusing to let yourself get worked up about things. I mean really: you are handling a bee sting by loading up a grenade launcher.
       On a side note: Can you imagine what it feels like to be Tracy's paperboy? Boy, if that kid misses the porch, old man Milburn is running down the street in his boxers with one sock on and a dirty undershit screaming "C'mere boy! I'll teach you to mess with me!!!" hahahaha... just kidding around Tracy.
       Adnan, I agree with everything you say, and am convinced that you should not feel obliged to explain your personal situation to anybody. Especially here, on this message board, where it is extremely difficult to change people's minds since all they have to do is ignore the truth and write about something else.
       Just to retain our focus though: the reality of the situation in America is that this country is being abused. While the immigrants coming to live and work in the US are probably decent, law-abiding human beings who add a lot of value to America, there is also a lot of despicable American companies who have no problem treating these immigrants like cattle and making them work sweatshop conditions. When these companies do this, not only do they hurt the immigrants, but in effect, they are also hurting their own people -- the Americans. Sweatshop labor is harmful to everybody because it unnaturally lowers the standards of employment for reasons other than economical or financial. So a job that a company should have no problem paying $65000/year for is being given to an immigrant who will do it for $5000/year. The immigrant loses because the only thing he gains is an extra block in his resume, and the American suffers because he loses the job to the immigrant who works for peanuts.
       If the Americans acted like some of these immigrants are acting, there would be NO MORE good jobs to speak of! This is why it's important that we do not flood this market with people who are ignorant or selfish, the kind of people that only care about "coming to America" or "sending money back home to help mom and dad out". Remember, I am not saying that these people don't have their reasons ( God knows I would do just about anything if my parents were living in extreme poverty ), but regardless of how noble they are being, they are in the end self-serving and harmful to the Amercian economy, which in turn hurt more people than just themselves.
       This debate is about getting rid of these people so that legitimate immigrants are not ostracized or judged unfairly by their American peers. America will always welcome immigrants, but only those that will help America and the American people; and they have every right to think this way, nothing wrong with that.

    B
       
  136. "Adnan, I agree with everything you say, and am convinced that you should not feel obliged to explain your personal situation to anybody. Especially here, on this message board, where it is extremely difficult to change people's minds since all they have to do is ignore the truth and write about something else. "

    If you had asked me this prior to the events of Sept. 11, I would agreed with you wholeheartedly. However, what I have realized is that the first-generation Americans have to speak up and let the truth be known. Otherwise, the void will be filled by someone else's twisted views, where all immigrants are either greedy, ungrateful, or deceitful. If you criticize American foreign policy, you are told to pack your bags and "go home". If you praise the democratic liberal values of America, your patriotism is looked upon with suspicion and disgust - btw, this particular insult is thrown at you by both whites and non-whites alike. If you don't say anything, you're accused of not caring about this country. Its like, "damned if you will, and damned if you won't."
    I, too, find it sad that after so many years I still have to defend my position in this country. But, that seems to be the best approach to undo some of the damage caused by the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks.
  137. {{If you don't say anything, you're accused of not caring about this country.}}
    Speech is silvern, silence is golden. You can't go wrong by not commenting.

    {{This is why it's important that we do not flood this market with people who are ignorant or selfish, the kind of people that only care about "coming to America" or "sending money back home to help mom and dad out". }}
    I don't understand why sending money back home to the folks is criticized at all. This is a lesson we can learn from. In America, family bonds are very weak, what about the 'care' in the other side of america McRae ? This is part of that care. These guys pay their taxes, after that whatever money they wish to spend is their right, such as sending money home to their parents and siblings who often pitch in to send them to USA.



    {{I think the major effect of .NET will be to allow VB and C# to talk to each other better and to allow existing VB and C# types to compete somewhat with Java programmers, which they could not before.}}

    It's nice to see the dismissive underestimation of .NET. This is the kind of attitude MS will have to work really hard to change in java developers that they are trying to lure into their development environment. VB in .NET has become a java-like language with features like function name overloading and structured exception handling. MS does not quit with its arrogance though, referring to C as C#'s predecessor in it's .NET literature. Are they kidding Gosling ?

    Some agencies have been able to cut their development times in half based on preliminary tests on .NET

     
     
  138. Timothy, "I don't understand why sending money back home to the folks is criticized at all. "

    OK, we've found something we disagree on.

    So, you don't like seeing an h1b person coming over here and bumpging an american out of a job, we agree on that. However, imho, it is ESPECIALLY horrible when we as a country loose the economic trickle-effect (called the Kensian multiplier in macroeconomics) by them sending all their money back home.

    No, that IS terrible.
  139. {{So, you don't like seeing an h1b person coming over here and bumpging an american out of a job, we agree on that.}}
    Although we may not like it, I don't blame H1B's one bit. Except that one indian lady. H1B's have many times filled gaps in the technology sector. How did Shaji get paid $85k for a four month project ? None of your H1B's-usurping-Americanjobs-for-peanuts-pay argument stands here because that amount isn't peanuts. Whoever said that the H1B bashing is cyclical with the economy's state is absolutely correct. Humans seem to take comfort from scapegoats. Who's to blame ? Like I have stated before, it's the corporations.

    {{However, imho, it is ESPECIALLY horrible when we as a country loose the economic trickle-effect (called the Kensian multiplier in macroeconomics) by them sending all their money back home.}}
    I believe you're referring to the Keynesian income multiplier. But the point again is the H1B's cannot be blamed for sending their money home. Nothing leech-like about it. You see americans use their income and spend on their family. The H1B's use their incomes also, and spend on their families. The only difference being the geographical location of the H1B's families. So how can they be lambasted for doing what americans are also doing. They pay taxes as well and don't get all the benefits of the citizenry. If you want to solve this problem, you need to establish McRae's suggestion of fast track citizenship for them and their families so their families can come here and join them immediately. That way the trickle-effect is eliminated. But really the problem is not severe enough. Either way, the H1B's cannot be blasted for this.

    For further reading on a related topic refer to http://www.thedialogue.org/publications/taylor.html

    Oh, there's at least one more thing we don't agree on. Football. It's my favorite sport, I captained it in high school as well as in college. And so my original statement of how hard it is in America to grasp the popularity of the game stands. Football (soccer in USA) is the rage in every other country. Stadler have you seen the female stadium crowd members flash at Liverpool vs Manchester Untd. games ? At least in Brazil they do.
  140. Timothy, "Who's to blame ? Like I have stated before, it's the corporations. "

    Timothy, when did I ever say I blamed h1-b's? You keep saying that, I challenge you to find where I did. I've said that I think this country needs to cut way back on them. Of course I don't BLAME them,but I think they should accept the possible consequences of accepting h1-b work (that they can go back at any time, that they may be abused by rogue companies etc).

    Oh, and also, footbal (BOTH soccer and american football), but suck imho.
  141. Hi Timothy Brandon,
        First up all, Thanks for some good comments. There are bad and good things through out the world. Nobody is perfect, nobody can be perfect with his/her limited knowledge and access to the universe. Human civilizations have done enough to prove that one of them is better than others. But as a genius and a civilized person, try to absorb and keep best out of your time in life. As a H1B visa holder and a son of a poor family in India, I have been traveling a long path in my life. I have been up and down a number of times, and all I can tell you guys that It is nothing to do with others, or current economic situation to deal with bad times in your life. I have faced tough time with American boss and my Indian fellows through out my life, casting on basis of color, communication skills, appearance, technical skills etc. What I have learned from that is, I can not change the all world, but I can change myself, so that I can make use of the best out of my communities. Some of the points I would like to share with you guys.

    1. Communication skills : Language is just for communication purpose and as long as you can share your ideas and views with your co-workers, I think you are good enough in communications skills. Just being a language expert won't bring the enough talent to get the assigned work done.

    2. Don't be too much proud about yourself. Keep always a low profile that eventually lead you to a world where you can see best on others instead of bad things and you can easily collect that good items into your life.

    3. Don't believe on others much: I have been employed with BEA Systems for two years and in my entire resume is about BEA products like WLS,WLCS,WLPI,WLPS and I have represented that company to a number of clients in USA and Europe with my bad English knowledge( According to one of my white idiotic boss(This is not a generic statement, I had very nice and talented white friends too)). But unfortunately I got laid of last year August, even after I made a big business in Germany for BEA Systems USA. Listen even though, I am here on my H1 visa to work for an US employer, they approached the German consulate in Los Angeles to get a visa permission to send me to Germany for 5 months on business purpose, that mean I am not just a H1B, low salary employee, but a talented brain which can make business in a technical point of view.

    4. During my German assignments, I have learned a lot from them, cuz they are really talented people even though their English skills are worst in this world. I had tough time in communication with them, but I was really impressed the way they follow the quality in software development, that make me to think about American and German made cars.

    5 . After I back from Germany, I got laid of from BEA, I was so worried about my future. I thought about the days when I used to receive post mail from BEA human resource department mentioned that I have honored with additional shares for my best services and talent. Within one month in last August everything became a lost dream and I lost everything. Mean while BEA made a pretty good money through me, by billing $350/hour to the customers on my services.

    6. Even though I was sad about all happened in my BEA professional service job, I later came to know that I have achieved some thing from that, First up all I made a great number of friends through professional service life and it helped me to find another assignment. In my first assignment after I left BEA, I took the responsibilities which assigned to me by understanding my technical contribution to BEA and it paid me a heavy money for 4 months assignment. I did that project after I have transferred my visa to one of my friends company. I got 80% of my billing and I believe that happened because I believe there will be something good outside for you always.

    7. After I left BEA, I had number of calls from my great Indian fellows who is here either with a Green card or a citizenship, who think I am a labor available for a low cost assignment on which he can take the most part and suck his boss feet. I really shame about my Indian fellows who is doing this kind of third class body shopping business. Life is only once in this world, don't be a slave, be proud about the civilizations and do the best out of your life to treat everybody as equal.
  142. T Q, I couldn't understand a word you said.
  143. Tracy, you once said that you were going to take your opinion and leave this thread, but you haven't done that. The reason you haven't done that is because you have an innate need to get THE LAST WORD in. You know that as soon as you leave this thread, all these people will start writing in contradicting everything that you and Don and Basil and Timothy the Funny Racist have been saying. You are right to think this way. I know of lots of people that are waiting to post their thoughts to this thread but will not do so until you leave.
    I can not take it anymore -- I have to join in now, because you are becoming more offending with each passing post. TQ is perhaps the most intelligent poster to come here. He is saying that this argument is stupid because it deals with superficial stuff like race and color. He says that the only thing that matters is that you take charge of your life and stop blaming other people for your own misery.
    Oh, you don't like having us immigrants in your country at times like this Tracy? Too bad. We are here to stay. We came here in the beginning because there were not enough of you Americans to put up with the demand. And now that demand has shrunk, we're the first ones to go, right? Wrong. I'm here to stay. That's why your own democratically elected government officials gave me the right to do so, because America wants me to stay. The current law on H1B encourages immigrants to continue looking for a job. It is none of your business if I find one for half your salary. It is none of your business if I find one that requires me working 60 hour weeks. Your expectations of a "Real Job" are pretty far fetched, Tracy. Welcome to the real world Tracy, you are going to have to miss out on baby's first word, and you will have to go to work even if you feel kind of sick. Too bad.
    Instead of everybody else moving around to please you, why don't you be the one to do the moving? Your own Senators and your own President signed the bill to get immigrants here both in good times and in bad. If you don't like it, write Dubbya up and let him know. Meanwhile, I think I'll go out and take your job while you are so busy hating everyone and everything.
  144. Captain America, "He says that the only thing that matters is that you take charge of your life and stop blaming other people for your own misery. "

    Thanks for translating becuase, honestly, I couldn't understand hardly anything the guy was saying.

    As for the rest of your post, I chose to stop reading it at around the second paragraph.
  145. Ooooo.. Tracy is getting mad.. better watch out, or he'll ask you to email him your home address, so he can come over and kick your ass. oooo... I'm getting too scared. And I'm not even allowed to say anything tough or funny like Tracy does, or else I'll get called a Keyboard Cowboy.
    Tracy acts real macho when he says things like "I'm through talkin to ya" or "I stopped readin your stupid message at Paragraph 3" or ( and this is his favorite one that he likes to use when you beat him at an argument ) "I didn't understand a word you said.".
    Hey Tracey, I _know_ that my IQ is better than yours. What say you take me on in a verbal contest? Go on, I dare you. List all your points on why you think that undeserving people should get jobs in America. List all the reasons why I should feel bad for the Americans who vote for the people who pass the laws that bring me here. List all the ways that it's my fault that immigrants come here, when we're supposed to sit back and let you open up slave companies all over Asia. Go on and tell me.
    You'll come up with the same old same old Tracy. You don't have a leg to stand on. If you don't like the idea of FAIR COMPETITION for your American jobs, then while you are freaking out on immigrants, make sure you get ready for us immigrants to freak out on the Americans who rape our home countries economy. Oh, that's not my fault, you say. Yes, it is you ignoramus. You want everything YOUR WAY -- the jobs you want, the price for goods low, food on your table for the rest of your life regardless that there are 1000 indians better than you.
    Welcome to the real world chump.
  146. WAAAAA Tracy's friend have to work at Walmart now. Hey Tracy, ever think about _why_ Walmart seems like such a sure bet for your buddy? It's because deep down inside, he's always had a thing for working there. Deep down inside, he's always had this escape route, just in case the world finds out that he's not as good at his job as he says he is. Looks like the world found out, and the less competent engineers go to Walmart.
    Hey, don't feel bad for _them_... what about those laid off Walmart people giving up all those jobs to people with college degrees. Boy, you would think that you could drop out of high school, party all week, watch MTV and do drugs all day long, but no matter what there's always Walmart or McDonald's even. Nope. Looks like the fat bloated spoiled kids of America are going to have to get a reality check. You want a job in this world? Get to work and stop bitchin' because America does not want anything to do with babies or whiners. America wants the best, and she's getting the best right now by going to other countries.
    Awww, Tracy gonna get MAAAD.
  147. Aww, whassa matter Tracy? Got nothing to say now? Yah, you sitting back with your tail between your legs now Big Guy. Oh maybe you don't understand what I'm saying, like this is the common complaint you have. "I don't understand a word you're saying." you always say. Hahahahaha! Oh boy, that's really funny!! That means that immigrants don't make any sense, right? Hahahahahah!! Hey Tracy, do you understand this?

                   .
                   l
                 ..l..
                 llll]
                  llll

    Might take you a while to get the message.

  148. "If you criticize American foreign policy, you are told to pack your bags and "go home"."

    I'm afraid I fell a bit into this myself, especially when the criticism wasn't really about foreign policy or anything really debatable but rather criticism of some of our freedoms, either freedoms which fanatics dislike or the kind of dishonest self-hate which some of us indulge in.

    "If you praise the democratic liberal values of America, your patriotism is looked upon with suspicion and disgust - btw, this particular insult is thrown at you by both whites and non-whites alike."

    This is very regrettable but true I am afraid. You are doing the best thing. Continue to do what you're doing. A lot of it will blow over with the next economic upturn. In the meantime, remember that most of the people who know you value you for the things you bring to the US, not only at work but also culturally......

    "If you don't say anything, you're accused of not caring about this country. Its like, "damned if you will, and damned if you won't.""

    Welcome to the club. Living over here in the UK, I often simply keep my mouth shut because they don't wish to hear what I really think about how they treate 'outsiders' here in Europe. After a generation or more, Turks, Arabs, and Muslims of all kinds are still being excluded from the central rewards in European societies, and I don't agree with it or like it one bit.

    The Brits seem to believe that if one simply doesn't discuss unpleasant topics, they will go away. They don't see that mostly what that does is build tension.

    I've been an opponent of affirmative action for a long time, and still mostly am. But it seems to me that AA brought with it a painful opening on mindsets which forces managers in the US to offer opportunity to people from other cultures in a way that Europe has not yet learned to do.

    For example, I see workplaces with many Asian workers, senior technical people, but not a single asian senior manager. How is this possible? Presumably merit is distributed evenly on the bell curve, so how is it that not a single asian is deemed worthy to be promoted from a senior technical role into project management?

    In Europe, 'tolerance' tends to take the form of easy access to welfare benefits for Muslims and Asians, but access to the roles which actually drive the society are virtually impossible or at best very difficult. The US isn't as good as it ought to be in this area, but outsiders and minorities can make it to the top.

    One reason I'm not skeptical of you're patriotism, Adnan, is that I believe you are smart enough to see the facts both good and bad about the US, and to value it because of the good.
  149. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Don, you are welcome in Canada any time, you would fit right in! Capitalism itself is its own worst enemy: in order to survive, it must constantly look for ways to increase profit. Unfortunately, ethics are put on the wayside in this search and immigrants are unfairly blamed for the resultant destruction of the American people. It is not the immigrants' fault that America's companies bring them here -- the problem is the American government and the American people are always getting b*tch-slapped by Big Business.

    Don't blame you if I make you all groan with this next comment, but in Canada, there is an open-door policy for people of all nations. The people's attitude in Canada *seems* to be, "Hey, if these cats want to come live here and pay these kinds of taxes, by all means!". Although many immigrants to Canada use the country as a springboard in getting a job in the US and relocating there, the US would probably find some value in Canada's immigration and labor policies. The Canadian government has its business on a much tighter leash... hmmm.. maybe that is why there are no wildly successful companies in Canada! heheh.. you could argue that back and forth I guess.

    Once again, I must put to you all that the problem here is that it is TOO easy to abuse the system. By fast-tracking Green Cards, it will make the entire country stand up and take notice... when this happens, the fallout effect will be tremendously positive. For example, there is no way that Nike will be able to open a shoe factory somewhere in the middle of China and pay people 10 cents a day to provide sneakers to the rest of the world. Companies will have to start taking the hundreds of millions of dollars that they pay their executive branch and instead pour it back into the country that is responsible for its existence. Hate to sound like a cynical Mike Moore ( especially because I think unions are out of control ), but really....

    When the US pulls up its socks on its immigration policy, everybody will benefit. More Americans will get the jobs that they should be getting, and future foreign investments will not just be a "free ride" for companies looking to save on labor cost. I'd love to see the US government's reaction on the day that the first FOREIGN-BASED sweatshop arrives in the US ( with apologies to Kathy Lee-Gifford ). It's coming -- how many American people do you know that would have no problem programming Java for minimum wage? Laugh if you will, but at this pace, by the time my children graduate, they will be lucky to find a company willing to pay them minimum wage to program Java. Meanwhile, I'll be a decrepit and bitter old man rocking in a old chair on a rickety front porch somewhere in the cold wilderness in Canada, telling anyone who will listen: "Back in MY day there were jobs EVERYWHERE.... people would come from all over the world... HEY PAPERBOY!!! YOU MISSED THE PORCH!! GET OVER HERE!!".
  150. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    "Capitalism itself is its own worst enemy: in order to survive, it must constantly look for ways to increase profit. Unfortunately, ethics are put on the wayside in this search and immigrants are unfairly blamed for the resultant destruction of the American people. It is not the immigrants' fault that America's companies bring them here -- the problem is the American government and the American people are always getting b*tch-slapped by Big Business."

    Hmmm, I'm not sure whether capitalism and insularity are correlated in any way that matters.

    Among the rich nations Canada and the US are among the most open and 'liberal' to immigrants, both in allowing them in in the first place and in allowing access to power roles. Canada's approach to 'capitalism' seems more European than similar to the US, though that may be an illusion.

    My most scathing criticisms apply to relatively 'non-capitalist' counties like Germany, France, and the UK, which don't allow immigrants (or even the descendants of immigrants) to be full members of their societies while fobbing them off with generous welfare benefits. I have seen this all over the EU, with the possible exception(s) of the Netherlands and Denmark. I don't know what to make of Japan, save that Japan seems even more closed to outsiders than Germany even. I think that Japanese insularity is a major factor in their economic losses since 1989, though I cannot prove it scientifically. We certainly don't want to emulate them here in North America!

    One of the points I have been making about this rush of anti-H1B fervor in the technical community is that this is definately a 'been there done that' phenomena which is tightly coupled to the bottom of the business cycle. When our jobs are threatened we don't much like the idea that non-citizens are over here working in jobs which we could be filling. Getting shed of H1B Visa holders seems an easy and appealing way of tightening up the jobs market.

    There's an old adage which I think applies here. 'For every complex problem there is an obvious answer wich is simple, easy, and - dead wrong!'. Shipping out the immigrants would be easy, simple, and dead wrong. Fortunately it ain't gonna happen!

    We've been through this before, and considerably worse. During the late-80's and early 90's. When the economy begins growing again and the technical jobs market tightens most of the anti-H1B rhetoric will evaporate.

    What I'm trying to say to the Americans is to remind them that these immigrants are normally a real asset and valued colleagues. So don't bash them around when bitching about the economy. I'm trying to tell the Asian guys that they are valued despite the rhetoric, and to keep their heads about the rhetoric. Hot air never hurt anyone. As long as that's all it is, let it roll off your back.

    9/11 is a complicating factor, particularly for Muslim dudes. It's wise if you love America to wear your heart on you're sleeve. If you don't it's wise to shut up about how the US ought to dress our women in burquas and limit their civil rights. Ain't a gonna happen!
  151. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    " If you don't it's wise to shut up about how the US ought to dress our women in burquas and limit their civil rights. Ain't a gonna happen! "

    Unfortunately...
  152. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Me: " If you don't it's wise to shut up about how the US ought to dress our women in burquas and limit their civil rights. Ain't a gonna happen! "

    Tracy: "Unfortunately"

    Tracy, you are just FULL of double-entendres today! So which is it? Is it unfortunate that our women don't dress in burquas and have limited civil rights, or is it unfortunate that fundy Muslims don't shut up?!!!!

    Or both? ;-)

  153. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    "Tracy, you are just FULL of double-entendres today! So which is it? Is it unfortunate that our women don't dress in burquas and have limited civil rights, or is it unfortunate that fundy Muslims don't shut up?!!!!
    "

    Lol, I was making a woman joke...
  154. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    "Don, you are welcome in Canada any time, you would fit right in! Capitalism itself is its own worst enemy: in order to survive, it must constantly look for ways to increase profit. "

    I totally agree. Check this out: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/001.html
  155. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Thanks Tracy. Some friend YOU are! You just agreed with Basil that I'm welcome to return to Canada!

    I take it that 'Tayxus' doesn't want me anymore? Sniff, sniff! ;-)
  156. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    ". The Canadian government has its business on a much tighter leash... hmmm.. maybe that is why there are no wildly successful companies in Canada! heheh.. you could argue that back and forth I guess. "

    The US could take a number of lessons from Canada on that one... that is for SURE.
  157. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    "It's coming -- how many American people do you know that would have no problem programming Java for minimum wage? Laugh if you will, but at this pace, by the time my children graduate, they will be lucky to find a company willing to pay them minimum wage to program Java."

    Assuming that you'll be an old man in 2025, let's compare the situation today with that of 1979, which may give us an idea of how much change to expect by 2025.

    In 1979 the bulk of programmers worked on mainframe apps, whether IBM or one of the 7 dwarves. A substantial number were working on minicomputers like DEC PDPs or their competitors. Unix and C were around but were confined to AT&T or universities in those days. There were some people doing bizzare things with Basic and Peek's and Poke's on Apple II's using CPM.

    C++ was a gleam in Bjorn Stroustrup's eye, James Gosling was more than a decade from concieving of Oak (Java's predecessor). The IBM PC didn't exist yet, and Microsoft employed less than 10 people. Oracle was a tiny company.

    Assuming the same degree of change over the next 23 years, there is no WAY your children will be caught DEAD doing Java programming, which will be the equivalent of Cobol and Fortran today. There will be legacy work perhaps, but they will want to learn things with a future.

    Depending on the supply, Java programmers may be able to make a decent buck even then the way that good mainframers can today - because of scarcity!
  158. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Don,

       Yes, technically I agree with you, but I guess I meant my words to be taken in an abstract manner. At the pace things are going now, programming/developing will be whittled down to minimum wage jobs.
       Another trend that I do not have statistics about, but will bet a few shares of SUN on, is that executive salaries have been rising at an exponential rate in comparison to middle class salaries within the white collar crowd. This indicates that as capitalism grows and grows in a free and open world, less and less reliance is necessary on local economic restraints and domestic issues become irrelevant. Fiscal responsibility becomes detrimental to the American society --- the market for labor is world wide, and suddenly those immigrants who thought that earning $5000 year in order to get "a foot in the door" now come to the startling conclusion that they are NEVER going to earn anymore than that, in part to their willing albeit ignorant participation in fattening the wallets of the Kenneth Lay's of this country.
        In the future, the only jobs that pay decently enough are high-level executive jobs. The problem is that no education can realistically prepare a person for this job, only working your way up the ladder can... but the rungs of this ladder have been cut off by the greedy executives in charge of Big Business, who had their saws thrown up to them from the ground by millions of immigrants who were "just doing their jobs".
        Now in order to reach your potential, you need to be rich enough and be part of the "old boys club" so that you can find someone willing to give you a lift in his personal helicopter to the part of the ladder where there are still some rungs left. So only a elite few in the capitalistic society survive, the rest of the American people suddenly find themselves sharing their malaise with hundreds of thousands of abused and bitter immigrants who were promised a better life. They congregate at the bottom of the rung-less ladder shaking it back and forth... but alas, it is too late to do anything about it. In the end, capitalism has a summit, a peak. Even the planet Earth has its limits and there is not an infinite number of markets to plunder, labor to abuse.
    After a long time, people come to realize that
  159. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    <continued...> ...come to realize that capitalism needs to have a watchdog, some body of democratically elected government to stand guard over human rights and dignity.

    This is called Socialism. There are many different flavors of it. A really promising one is north of the 49th, in a really cold land that taxes its citizens to death called Canada. Oh yeah, and they have this medical system there that requires no co-payments or lump sums of money to ever be paid for medical assistance. Problem is, you may not use the hospital for years and years, yet you will pay for it as if you are through your income taxes. So you get bitter and decide to start going to the hospital for every little thing, like headaches and stubbed toes, and this drains the money supply that officials planned on being corrupt with. This makes everybody angry, and in the meantime, you lose all your professionals to a neighboring country in which you are desperately trying to keep up with economically.

    Life is a bowl of cherries.
  160. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Basil, "Another trend that I do not have statistics about, but will bet a few shares of SUN on, is that executive salaries have been rising at an exponential rate in comparison to middle class salaries within the white collar crowd. "

    I agree. In other words, the rich get richer as the poor get poorer.
  161. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    "Yes, technically I agree with you, but I guess I meant my words to be taken in an abstract manner. At the pace things are going now, programming/developing will be whittled down to minimum wage jobs."

    I don't agree at all with you, Basil. The shape of the best-paying jobs will change, but what you postulate is impossible because of the structure of the labor market. It takes considerable knowledge to do development work, and considerable effort in time and money to learn the skills in the first place and keep them up. If the rewards are the same as a MacDonalds counter job or mopping floors, people won't take the time and effort to acquire and maintain the skills.

    "Another trend that I do not have statistics about, but will bet a few shares of SUN on, is that executive salaries have been rising at an exponential rate in comparison to middle class salaries within the white collar crowd. This indicates that as capitalism grows and grows in a free and open world, less and less reliance is necessary on local economic restraints and domestic issues become irrelevant."

    I believe this is true in part, but you leave out some things as well. Those high-flying managerial jobs are a helluva lot more risky as well. Average tenure in those jobs is way down, because with the big bucks come big responsibility. Much of the outsize gains come in the form of share options and bonuses, which are a crapshoot.

    Another thing you neglect is the change in the structure of the middle class. 30 years ago there were two big groups in the middle classes. There were the blue-collar factory workers and the white-collar middle-management people. Initially in the 70's the blue collar jobs took a hit in raw numbers, though not much of a hit in earnings. More recently the good blue collar jobs have become much more knowledge-oriented as automation and robotics have taken much of the muscle work out of car assembly, etc. The numbers have shrunk some but not as much as expected, as US and canadian blue-collar workers are several times as productive as they were in 1970.

    Middle management managed to avoid much trouble until about 1980. The undifferentiated middle management class has been virtually destroyed in North America. They have been replaced with professionals of various stripes. Software engineers, accountants, civil engineers, marketers, etc. Information networks destroyed the middle management class, as vast heirarchical management structures are no longer necessary for command and control and to disseminate information upward and downward in the corporation. A good example is GE, which has collapsed it's levels of management fromn 25 to 6 since the late 70's.

    One more point needs making. The future is discontinuous. That is, if you drew a graph of trends there would be inflection points, places where the trend line bends and heads in a different direction.

    Simply stated, the past is not a good predictor of anything but the immediate future in many ways. If predicted the future in the middle of the dot.bomb craze, things had no way to go but up. Currently things are crappy and a line drawn on a chart today shows nowhere to go but down. Both conclusions are bunk. Either growth will resume shortly, and tend to draw wages upward accross the economy, or we'll have poor growth, which will make it difficult for top management to justify getting outsized rewards any longer.
  162. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Hey guys, I thought I was done with this thread, the sheer fact that it takes SO long to come up is getting annoyne (theserverside needs to utilize sun's paging pattern! :), but here is some more news. I just got this message from a guy I have a tremendous amount of respect for, who like Don is extremely knowledge and has "been around" and in the business for decades. He's about to throw up his hands and get out of it altogether. Here is a really interesting e-mail I got from him this morning:

    "I got a call from a recruiter about a project in Plano. The rate was $62 for the agency and $50 for
    me on a corp to corp deal. The recruiter said I had a good chance of
    getting an interview if no Indians applied. I asked him what he meant
    and he said they were cutting the rates by $8 an hour and willing to
    work for $42 per hour. I told him I would take the contract for $40 and
    hour and would be glad to get it."

    How do you like them beans? Oh, yeah, the h1-b's aren't affecting rates and employees.. not at all!

    Then he says something else worth noting later on:

    "Whatever Rush Limbaugh is getting paid, he is well worth it. Americans
    are loosing jobs and quality of life at an unbelievable rate and yet
    they still hate unions and consider themselves conservatives. Enron robs
    millions of Americans of their 401K and still the conservatives love big
    business. My brother in law still works at EDS and they now expect
    everyone to be putting in 55 hour weeks as a minimum. He says all of his
    coworkers are right wing nuts and are willing to do the time. As long as
    there are people like that out there we are doomed to become a third
    world nation."

    55 hour work weeks? I'd rather leave IT as well if that was all I could get. I'd sell my house, work at mcdonalds or go into farming, and still be able to spend time with my family while I could. If someone is going to work that many hours, I would suggest they spend that time on more worthy causes. I could suggest a few: the Red Cross, United Way, Big brothers&sisters, or your local orphanage. I wouldn't suggest giving all those hours away to a profit-hungry company. And his point is well-taken, as long as there are peoplw "willing to do that" it really makes it hard on those of us who enjoy living (outside of work).

    I recently had lunch with a guy from Pakistan. I like the guy, I used to work with him. But he too said something that bothered me a bit. He said on his new job he is working 14 hour days, and is enjoying it. He isn't married and has no family, and it is not his fault (it's the companies for not approaching him asking him tob alance his life) but, at the same time, when companies allow guys like that to work like that, how do we compete with them? I couldn't possibly. And it isn't right.

    Let the flaming begin... :)
  163. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Tracy, first of all thank you for the reference to the Einstein article that you previously posted -- I thoroughly enjoyed it. Are there any more of them out there? Tried doing a search on Google, but mostly ended up with some High School kid's attempt to make his term essay on Einstein more sophisticated by publishing it on the web -- and actually, some of these are rather good!
    Don, I appreciate your optimism on the debate we are currently having regarding wages going down to minimum wage. However, with Tracy's most recent posting, can you not see where this is headed? The American finds a job for $50/hour, and the immigrant undercuts his American peer by another $8. The American is left with no choice but to go lower, so now the job is $40. Actually, Tracy did not finish the story -- I would be very interested in knowing the final word on this one --- so we don't know if the immigrant actually went one step further down to $35 or something.... Do I hear $25/hour anyone??? $20?? What about you over there in Washington... you've been unemployed for months... don't you want the experience? You do? Great... $15 bucks an hour for you. Yes, I know you can potentially earn more working at the post office, but that's a far more dangerous job, don't be so disrespectful to us. We're giving you a fantastic opportunity here.

  164. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    "Tracy, first of all thank you for the reference to the Einstein article that you previously posted -- I thoroughly enjoyed it. "

    I did too. In fact, my friend Bill and I had said many of the same exact things Einstein said (great minds think alike, you know how it goes) before I had ever read the article. It was amazig at how accurate and true many of the things said were and, in fact, are happening TODAY! The "bust and boom" of capitalism.

    I heard something on the radio on the way to work this morning about something that happened in Canada, some kind of crime. The radio guy said "You don't hear about a lot of things like this in Canada, " and then went on to tell the story and I thought "yeah, that's because it probably isn't true in Canada that 3% of the people control 95% of the wealth with the rest of the people being poor and fighting for food while the rich live like kings and raid the 401k accounts of the poor/working class for entertainment."

    "Don, I appreciate your optimism on the debate we are currently having regarding wages going down to minimum wage. However, with Tracy's most recent posting, can you not see where this is headed? The American finds a job for $50/hour, and the immigrant undercuts his American peer by another $8. The American is left with no choice but to go lower, so now the job is $40."

    That's absolutely correct. Again, it's verry difficult for me to compete with someone who is more than willing to work 14 hour days for 1/2 my pay. How CAN I compete with someone like that? The answer is, I simply can't. The question is, should I get preference because I'm American? The company would, of course, say absolutely not but then they are looking for line their pockets any way possible (whether ethical or not).

    "Do I hear $25/hour anyone??? $20?? What about you over there in Washington... you've been unemployed for months... don't you want the experience? You do? Great... $15 bucks an hour for you."

    Lol, I love it.

    " Yes, I know you can potentially earn more working at the post office, but that's a far more dangerous job,"

    ROFL
  165. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

       The solution is to have immigrants to America understand the issues that Americans face, and to join their American peers in that cause. One of the issues that America is facing right now is capitalist abuse of the working class.
       The solution is to stand firm in your resolve to get the most money you can out of the company -- you will know when you have when you are asking too much when you start missing out on jobs when demand is high and supply is low. For example, my job pays me above the market rate for Java Developers with 2-3 years experience, and this is considering the market rate during the dot.com heydey. I have a rather large network of friends both American and immigrant Canadians and we all make sure that we stay in tune with each other for support.
       Occassionally, this leads to a recruiter calling me up out of the blue to see if I want to work for his company. The last two times this has happened, the recruiter's first question was "how much do you want?". I always tell him that I expect to be paid top quality dollar, at which point you can hear the recruiter's polite voice change to one of smugness and certainty: "Well, what with the economy being so bad and all...".
       I never get a chance to really say what I want, because I tell them that I will not accept a lower salary simply because of the economical situation. This is because my work generates the same amount of cost savings ( I do B2B ) for the company now as it did back in the boom time. They always cut the conversation short and hang up on me, knowing that I am not going to get sucked into their rationale regardless of what poision they will spew forth.
      We all have to suffer when the economy is bad. And then I wonder what other things a company is doing to reduce their costs in light of this devastating state we are in. Are executives taking pay-cuts as well? Are headquarters being moved out of expensive waterfront offices and into rural areas where the benefit to those starved cities will be tenfold? We too are a corporation, and like them, our goal is to generate as much profit for our skills as possible. Whereas company profit goes to feed the executives and employees of the corporation, our profit goes to feed our family -- same thing!
       So in that sense, it IS my business to know how the second corporation in this relationship has determined the rationale in which the limited pieces of the pie available as "profit" were cut smaller for me yet remained the same them.
       If you were to say this to a recruiter, they would reply that they have no idea how much money executives are making and so forth. At which point you should reply that if they don't know how much money the executives are making then how can they say that you are wrong to ask for a higher salary and that your piece of the pie theory is incorrect? For example, it is well known that executives of many many companies have continued to rake in bonuses large enough to feed hundreds of unemployed Americans for the whole year even during recessionary times.
       The point is: I think immigrants are needed, valuable, and necessary to America and that there should always be an open door for them. But perhaps more valuable than their Java skills is our sense of social justice and an awareness of the responsibility that we as immigrants have in keeping the spring of water flowing. Too many immigrants are coming in here and hurting all of us by using anti-capitalistic methods to drive down the real price of our skills because of the introduction of an intangible factor to the equation: The fact that they are ecstatic to be living in this country supersedes their desire to make a lot of money. This is something that Americans and American-thinking immigrants were not prepared for. We should get these deranged immigrants Green Cards as soon as possible so that we take that "you-can't-be-in-this-country-if-you-don't-work" factor out of the equation. Then, we should make sure that the countries they are coming from are shown whatever generosity and financial compensation we can spare, so that there are less and less people who find it absolutely vital that they come to America, regardless of how much they get paid. ie. Make India, China, etc etc financially able to start a powerful economy of their own.. that way everybody wins.
       We win when we work together and understand all the issues.
  166. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    "One of the issues that America is facing right now is capitalist abuse of the working class. "

    Oh, this is not a new issue... one of my favorite quotes from the movie Platoon: "The rich are always f'in over the poor. Always have, always will."

    "We all have to suffer when the economy is bad. And then I wonder what other things a company is doing to reduce their costs in light of this devastating state we are in. Are executives taking pay-cuts as well? "

    Lol, as if

    "We all have to suffer when the economy is bad. And then I wonder what other things a company is doing to reduce their costs in light of this devastating state we are in. Are executives taking pay-cuts as well? Are headquarters being moved out of expensive waterfront offices and into rural areas where the benefit to those starved cities will be tenfold? We too are a corporation, and like them, our goal is to generate as much profit for our skills as possible. Whereas company profit goes to feed the executives and employees of the corporation, our profit goes to feed our family -- same thing! "

    Ok, I can see there's no point in us talking about this issue considering I have nothing to say that disagrees with you... if you were here you'd just see me nodding my head.

    Yet, I then see articles in the paper like I did this past week saying how "many companies are laying those off with the 'spottiest' job history, who looked for the 'best deal' during the boom." I was infuriated when i saw that article. How DARE companies consider this "revenge time" against us for fightin long and hard to get salaries up to a decent wage as we did.

    "If you were to say this to a recruiter, they would reply that they have no idea how much money executives are making and so forth. At which point you should reply that if they don't know how much money the executives are making then how can they say that you are wrong to ask for a higher salary and that your piece of the pie theory is incorrect? "

    I hate to belittle a profession but, my experience has been that "most" recruiters are simply glorified ex-secretaries. As a matter of fact, I have HAD the conversations with recruiters that you speak of, often going on at lengths justifying my thinking. Guess what? You could hear a pin drop when I did. They could really care less. They're just out to fill a job order, they don't care about changing anything. They're their to kiss the butts of corporate America.

    I love our legal system for the most part... our political system isn't bad compared to the corrupt ones of other nations I suppose, but it could be better... Our economic system NEEDS AN ENIMA.
  167. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Tracy and Basil,

    Tracy sez:

    "I got a call from a recruiter about a project in Plano. The rate was $62 for the agency and $50 for me on a corp to corp deal. The recruiter said I had a good chance of
    getting an interview if no Indians applied. I asked him what he meant and he said they were cutting the rates by $8 an hour and willing to work for $42 per hour. I told him I would take the contract for $40 and hour and would be glad to get it."

    How do you like them beans? Oh, yeah, the h1-b's aren't affecting rates and employees.. not at all!"

    How do I like them beans? Not much. I have a much worse story from the 90's downturn about a contractor working for IBM in Boca Raton who began at $48 an hour in 1990 and was forced down stepwise to $28 an hour in 1995 before giving up in disgust and heading to Houston! Shows how desperate one can get I guess.... ;-)

    IBM was replacing people from Indian body-shops like the Lucent example I quoted you earlier.

    Tracy again:

    "My brother in law still works at EDS and they now expect
    everyone to be putting in 55 hour weeks as a minimum. He says all of his coworkers are right wing nuts and are willing to do the time."

    It doesn't take a 'right-wing nut' to work like a nut. But right-wingers sometimes tend to believe a bit more in this form of personal responsibility than the socialists do.

    EDS is nutcase heaven, always has been. In that respect and others. I interviewed with them twice early in my career. The standard employment contract was right out of '16 Tons':

    "You load 16 tons and what do you get? Another day older and your deeper in debt! So St Peter don't you call me, for I can't go.... I owe my soul to the company store!"

    Basil writes:

    "Tracy did not finish the story -- I would be very interested in knowing the final word on this one --- so we don't know if the immigrant actually went one step further down to $35 or something.... Do I hear $25/hour anyone??? $20?? What about you over there in Washington..."

    Been there, done that. I've seen it. I took a horrible yellow-dog job with Lucent in New Jersey in 1995 to keep food on the table and a place to live.

    I have also seen things turn upward and watched rates hit the roof quickly. I've also seen a company *uc* itself by putting it's work up for the low bidder, which is precisely what Lucent has been doing.

    The problem (and the solution) is called the business cycle, folks, and it's not anyone's fault in particular. In my own personal case I try to regard it as a personal wake-up call and start trying to learn as much as I can as quick as I can! Even cutting over to a new techology paradigm if need be. I'm getting better at seeing the shift earlier this time. This recession I caught the shift 2 years earlier than last time, when it took the recession to get me really seriously going!

    "You don't hear about a lot of things like this in Canada, "

    Well now, some of it could be journalistic culture also. The Netherlands has a reputation of being a peaceful, bucolic place without a lot of violent crime. But I lived there for two months in 1991 and saw two things which shocked me out of my mind. I had a switchblade pulled on me in the subway after a failed pickpocketing attempt, and I eyewitnessed a gun battle in the streets of Rotterdam.

    Indeed, you don't *hear* of much of that in Holland - but maybe you should?

    "BTW, I sure as heck wish Canad was closer and had the weather we have here in Texas... cold air and I don't mix at all!"

    My question is what is the high-tech job situation in Canada right now? I bet it righteously stinks with Nortel cutting staff by 30% in the past year! What are Canadian wages like these days in high-tech. They were a lot lower than US wages even in the palmy days. With Nortel on the ropes I'll bet Toronto is a high tech bloodbath these days.

    Hope I'm wrong.
  168. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    "My question is what is the high-tech job situation in Canada right now? I bet it righteously stinks with Nortel cutting staff by 30% in the past year!"

    Yeah, I like to know that too.

    What are Canadian wages like these days in high-tech. They were a lot lower than US wages even in the palmy days. "

    Who cares? With free medical care, day care, birth and death benefits, and job security to speak of.

    Again, this economic system needs an enima.

  169. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    BTW, that wasn't meant as a cut at Canada. But with Nortel cutting 30 (or was it 40%?) Toronto has to be like what happened on the 128 corridor in Boston during the early 90's and like Silicon Valley this year. Real bad news....
  170. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    this is for Tracy Milburn .
    You are such a LOOSER.
    you really SUCK
    do us all a favour..KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT
    U aint american your an *******
  171. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    johnathon matchew and his words of wisdom, "this is for Tracy Milburn .
    You are such a LOOSER.
    "

    Oh go jump in a lake, you keyboard warrior COWARD.
  172. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Tracy Milburn
    U have a single digit IQ and oh yeah if u need to meet up since u think your so brave then... COME ON . would love to re-arrange your face.oh and by the way i know you ...and i watch you .choose your words u incompotent *******.
  173. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Jonathon,

       Wow, you have some anger management issues.
       Besides in reply to Tracy's invitation for a brawl, why did you provoke this fight with Tracy? I re-read the post by Tracy that you were referring to when posted your declaration of anti-Tracy rhetoric, and I don't see anything offending in it.
       In fact, Tracy has always been careful to point out that he does not have a problem with people of different races or colors; his issues are mainly with the American corporate issues that abuse these people. I am an immigrant to the US, and I am not offended at all by Tracy's stance -- in fact, I support it. I am hoping that by having intelligent conversation with people from different countries, races, cultures, and backgrounds, we can all come to consensus on the issue of why, how, and if the H1B is harming the US economy. Whenever a CAPS-happy tough guy like you comes along though, we alwasy get thrown back into the dark ages.
       Tracy is saying the same thing as a lot of peace-loving, patriotic, non-discriminatory people are saying. If you want to cut him down, please do so with behaviour with which you seem so intent on Tracy himself displaying.
  174. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Basil (about "johnathon"), " Wow, you have some anger management issues.
       Besides in reply to Tracy's invitation for a brawl, why did you provoke this fight with Tracy? I re-read the post by Tracy that you were referring to when posted your declaration of anti-Tracy rhetoric, and I don't see anything offending in it. "

    I wouldn't worry too much about trash-talkin' keyboard warriors like that guy who come on forums like this to try and act cool - he's just an idiot.

    And you're right, who knows where his anger issues come from. But then, who cares? cya
  175. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Basil the bumpkin
    a.k.a tracy milburns boy toy .
    I forgot how wise u were.oh boo hoo dont cry .yeah thats right run to mommy.besides tracy the ******* has left .good ridance to bad rubbish.
  176. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    johnnie mathew, "Basil the bumpkin
    a.k.a tracy milburns boy toy . "

    Why, because he pointed out what an idiot you are?

    "I forgot how wise u were.oh boo hoo dont cry .yeah thats right run to mommy.besides tracy the ******* has left .good ridance to bad rubbish. "

    You're so funny. I'm still waiting for your e-mail...
    And why are you even posting here? You're obvously not adding anything except waste to this thread.
  177. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    look whos talking ...
    my aint u contributing alot...think your a wise owl...guess what your nothing but a whinner...oh dont start crying ..here ...shove something up your mouth maybe it would help.
  178. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Man, you guys are such loosers coming on here with all your verbal attacks and keyboard warrior antics. Give it a rest already. This thread has really turned into something horrific.
  179. Author would not discuss[ Go to top ]

    Hi:

    I think the author Surviving the Job Crunch missed something very important. That the US has a created a major problem for it own citizens relating to the IT and technicals fields.

    The US is being flooded by H1-B or other foreign labor, went they arrive here find no work. Resulting in them take jobs much lower them they expected. Which in turn is hurting everybody.

    The INS and DOL which approved these visa is saying their high unemployment in these field. If their was as many people lay off or looking for work would stop the importing of H1-B or other foreign labor.

    Which could result in their allway being a surplus of IT and technical worker now in the US.

    If my number are correct the DOL and INS are granting 75K H1-B visa per month do a shortage of skill US citizens.

    Remember all the information an employer fill out for an H1-B is on the honor system neither INS or DOL check it out.

    As I stated once befor it time for BOTH US CITIZENS and H1-B's TO SAY STOP THEIR ENOUGHT HERE WAIT TILL WE USE THE CURRENT SURPLUS.

    THANK YOU
    David L. Wasler

  180. Author would not discuss[ Go to top ]

    "If my number are correct the DOL and INS are granting 75K H1-B visa per month do a shortage of skill US citizens. "

    The cap has been 115,000 H1Bs/year for the past 2-3 years. It used to be 65,000 before that. If we accept your numbers the total would be 900,000. I think you're just a tad bit off :)
  181. Author would not discuss[ Go to top ]

    David why should the INS and DOL get involved? Capitalism in its purest form means that you, me, and the INS or DOL have no business telling the US companies who they can or can not hire. The US and all the countries of the world agreed a long time ago to open up their borders. Now finally after all these years, the US citizen is feeling the pain that all the other citizens of the world felt. So all of sudden, you care? Why? Because you are selfish, and that's OK. I am selfish too. And because I am selfish, I help the US get better. Not because I am a baby it gets better. I come to this job, they tell me that instead of paying $120000 for the job, they have dropped down to $75000. I will still take it and then later, when the company comes to rely on me, I will tell them I want a raise or I am leaving. They will refuse, complaining that the market rate says I am only worth $80 or $81 thousand. I don't care, I say, and I leave. When I do this, they will think twice before asking someone to work for $45000 less than the market rate, so people like Tracy's friend can leave the Walmart and finally get a job back thanks to these bad immigrants. By the way, I still get no response from Walmart comments -- boy you Americans sure have a flair for the dramatics. OH NO, NOW I AM A DITCH DIGGER. SOMEBODY TELL THE IMMIGRANTS TO GO AWAY
  182. Author would not discuss[ Go to top ]

    To Chief America, why not use your real name.

    I paid a lot for my education, to have the field I work in pay scale down graded by none US Citizen, is very up setting.

    No one has never anwser my question.

    Would it be legal for me as a non-India citizen to replace a India citizen working, in the IT or techical field.


    Yes or NO



  183. Author would not discuss[ Go to top ]

    David, "To Chief America, why not use your real name.
    "

    Because, it's totally obvious, he is a YELLOW COWARD.

    David, "The INS and DOL which approved these visa is saying their high unemployment in these field. If their was as many people lay off or looking for work would stop the importing of H1-B or other foreign labor. "


    Well-said, and completely correct.

    David, "Would it be legal for me as a non-India citizen to replace a India citizen working, in the IT or techical field. "

    Of course it wouldn't. The us is the most open when it comes to that. chiefy touts "pure capitalism" as being fair and a great idea. of course, being an immigrant, he doesn't realise that pure capitalism can never work, because if companies "can" do something, meaning, if ti's legal for them to do it, they will. Remember that companies are merely people, just like chiefy. Now, imagine that guy in control. My GOD.

    Let's take, for example, the early 1900's where guys like chiefy who tout "pure capitalism" because it benefits them. What were the early 1900's like? I seem to recall from my AMERICAN HISTORY BOOKS I read in high school, which I attened IN THIS COUNTRY, often reading of 13 year old children working 12 hour days in sweatshops. Why ask you? Was it because pure capitalism works? HECK NO, it was because the GREEDY people that ran the companies were legally able to get away with that crap. That's why. And the rich got richer, and hoarded their money (which proves, by the way, that "trickle down economics" is total BS), and the poor languished in misery.

    PURE CAPITALISM=PURE EVIL.
  184. Author would not discuss[ Go to top ]

    David: YES. Be my Indian guest. Have fun in Bombay.

    Tracy: Hypocrite! You denounce your government, yet you complain when it doesn't give you what it is you abhor.
  185. Author would not discuss[ Go to top ]

    Tracy and David have their head in a cloud. They argue this issue based on their feelings. I argue this issue based on facts.

    FACT: The US is the best country in the world for business.
    FACT: It is the best because it takes no prisoners. Those who don't like it can leave. Go to Canada or UK or Switzerland if you don't agree with US methodology of running business.
    FACT: US is also the best for business because it allow business to grow without considering human needs. Business and family values are not compatible. There is no interface with these two things. If you try to make one or justify one, you will be disappointed.
    FACT: If you don't agree with the above, please refer to the will of the American people. I don't see any laws being passed to enforce what Tracy and Dave suggest. Is this because US stupid? Is this because US ignorant? No, US is certainly not stupid, and is the most open minded country in the world. So why are these things happening in US? Because the people want it to be so. Please refer to democracy if you don't believe me. I eat my words if Tracy's views become law, until then, you are both wrong by fact.

    Sorry, but you guys can complain all you want. I am here to make money, and your country supports me by its own law. The people have spoken.
  186. Chief America the US IT and technical work force was sold out by their own congress. Who created a bill base on a supposely on skill labor shortage.

    Many US $$$ were paid by lobbyist to the US conngress to created a bill that would flood the US with cheap labor.


    Question #2, Mr Chief America would you be willing to flight for the US if need be to paid back the US for what it gave you or would you run out. Or are you one those folks who only take and give an XXX why you can paid by the US.

    Mr Chief America anwser my question.

    What you are missing is you wages you get now. Could even get lower if more H1-Bs come and willing to work for less them you.

    The is starting to large surplus of H1-B's, which is great for the company, but for you and I.

    Chief America please anwser my two questions.
  187. {{US is also the best for business because it allow business to grow without considering human needs. Business and family values are not compatible. There is no interface with these two things. If you try to make one or justify one, you will be disappointed. }}

    You are correct. This is why US is in the forefront technology-wise, research-wise, etc. But it comes with a stout price. One of which is health. Even though I am in good health, the americans around me are digging their own graves early on. CNN today released statistics on the "fat" problem. An astounding 80% of the population over 25 years of age is overweight today in America. That's 4 out of 5 persons you meet every day. Consider that not too long ago, in 1995, the percentage was much lower at 71%. Consider also, that in 1983 the percentage of overweight americans was 58%. Fifty eight percent to eighty percent in less than 20 years. Is 100 % too far off ? The apocalyptic implications may not occur to a layman, but it takes a heavy toll on the national health. Tens of billions of dollars of extra medical costs due to health related to "fatness". Women have lost all their shame and consider being fat as being "BBW" or "Big and Beautiful Women", so much so that they now hire fashion "models" to cater to the plus size crowd, which is the majority.

    On CNN: "The poll echoes a recent report issued by U.S. Surgeon General David Satcher, who said obesity is reaching "epidemic proportions" in the nation and could soon cause as much preventable disease and death as cigarette smoking.

    According to Satcher, the conditions of being overweight or obese cause as many as 300,000 premature deaths each year."

    Health is only one aspect. What about broken homes, single mothers, baby boomers that have been indoctrinated by the divorce-is-inevitable mantra, mental health freaks, etc. I doubt Columbine's would occur if parents had more time to dedicate to the children, but alas, "business and family values are not compatible". I would say "business and family values have been made incompatible". By none other than businesses.

    Sure, when you're fresh off of college or have been unemployed for a while, the prospect of drudgery, of 12 hour days of coding and "cynical debate and foosball" sound appealing. I remember those young Indians hopping out of college to slavery in Trilogy, where they had to work at LEAST 12 hour days. But bachelorhood is a choice. The technology sector has shifted to a very bachelor centric culture. There is nothing in life to their likes except work. And the money they make ? They don't have time to enjoy it. And when they do, it's too late. I respect it if that's your choice to be extremely dilligent. But the execs who make you work like mules, are the one's living lavish lives. Who knew poor Kenny Boy owns ten houses worth $20 million ?



     
  188. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    Timothy, "You are correct. This is why US is in the forefront technology-wise, research-wise, etc. But it comes with a stout price. One of which is health. Even though I am in good health, the americans around me are digging their own graves early on. "

    You're absolutely correct. It comes at a HEFTY price. For example, if "chief america", too coward to use his own name, wasn't too stupid to realize it, he would see his own future if everyone worked 15 hours days: Every child becoming a tim mcveigh. And, he'd be sorry when he himself or his family (if he had time for one) got blown up.

    NO, WE ARE NOT HERE TO SERVE COMPANIES. COMPANIES ARE HERE TO SERVE SOCIETY by satisfying consumer demands. Society is about PRESERVATION of the human race. And society is about family. Simple as that.

    "I never heard a man on his deathbed say he wish he'd have spent more time at work."

    Enough said.
  189. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    Hahaha Tracy, your childish behaviour makes it all the more believable that you are one of the complainers. I wonder which came first for you, the warped view of America or the warped view of yourself.
    For example, what does it matter if I used a real name? So if I log in as "Charlie Jones", you would not have a problem with me? Who cares what my name is???
    You guys really know how to set a diversion around the real topic that you try so hard to avoid. The real issue is that Tracy and David feel incapable and insecure and instead of taking it upon themselves to make their lives better, they prefer to bitch and complain. We all know where those kind of people end up.
    Call me what you want, I have the money and the job and I deserve it.
  190. David, I read your post twice, but I can only find one question, but I will answer your single question. Your question is would I fight in a war that America is involved in so that I can return to America what she has given to me.

    First, America and I are already square. America gives me job, and I give them my work. I don't owe America nothing, and she does not owe me nothing either. Every day I work, I get paid and that is the extent of my contract with America. Now if America goes to war, of course I would fight if the war is about my job. If the war is about other things, the answer is no. Again I repeat that I am not here to be personal with you or America. I am here to make money. That is as far as deal goes. My own values are my own business.

    You and Tracy keep bringing up personal issues. What about the children, what about the dignity, what about my ancestors who intended me to be rich, not some immigrant. You never face facts David. You always approach situation based on what you hear on Oprah. You keep bringing up moral things to support your argument. What has morals got to do with business? NOTHING Those that think that morals has a place in business should be working in Canada or UK or Switzerland, not America. Also, these moral things show that you create monster that you cannot control. Where do you draw the line? Let us assume that all immigrants go home. Now let us assume that you still get no job. Then what you do? I know what you do -- you will start complaining that those people who have millions of dollars should not be allowed to work. Because they do not have to worry about putting food on the table for the rest of their life, then the job should go to a person who has hungry children. WRONG WRONG WRONG That is not how business works and that is not how America is become so strong.

    Look, even Timothy agree with me now. He no say I am wrong, but then again he no say I am right. That is the problem with you. Take a side, pick a side, and stick with it. If you say that immigrants should not be in America any more, then why don't you go all the way and say what you really want to say: You want to make sure that everybody has food to put on the table no matter what. Well David, that is called communism and you are in the wrong country. Go to China.
  191. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    "Chiefy" knows absolutely nothing about American history. He wasn't educated here, so he doesn't realize his idea of "pure capitalism" has ALREADY been tried - in the 1900's. Companies basically got away with murder, literally, by working children to death. Then, the govt realized companies needed constraints put on them. Ever since then, more and more constraints have been put on them, and we're more socialisitc now than capitalistic; the main difference being, we have no socialized medicine.

    Basically, he's an idiot, and a coward. Who uses an ALIAS on a professional board anyway???
  192. Chief America

    The question you will not anwser.

    Can I work in India as non-citizen, and replace you as a India citizen from your job.

    YES or NO

    What so hard!

    Thank You
    David L. Wasler
  193. I already answered that question David, my answer was:

    YES. Be my Indian guest. Have fun in Bombay.
  194. {{ I already answered that question David, my answer was:

    YES. Be my Indian guest. Have fun in Bombay.}}

    That's not an answer. The question is on official policy or actual practice in India regarding non-Indian workers replacing Indian workers akin to the Indians' pre-emptive job captures in the american market, notwithstanding that they may be qualified for it.
  195. Okay, so the question is not subjective, it is one of fact -- can an American work in India. The answer is "I don't know and I don't care." My regrets... I thought this message board was about America and the perception that immigrants were replacing citizens in the labor force. My views on this is that since this country is a democracy, the laws passed here are the will of the people, then it is why I have no problem coming here for job. Tracy and David's view is that immigrants should take it upon themselves to leave the country when they don't have a job. My answer to that is "tell it to your government, not me.". If your government tells me that I am welcome to come here and work, I will. When it tells me to go home, I will. But I am not going to do what a couple of rednecks from Texas suggest.
    So do you want to talk about India now?
  196. Chief America

    I'm not from Texas and I'm not a red neck. I'm black American and I see all you H1-Bs coming here taking jobs away from Americans who care about their country.


    And, you know the anwser to my question if you don't your one of the XXXXX H1-B's around.

    Went I question other H1-B's they all no, I couldn't replace them.

    Cheers
  197. So what is your point David? Nobody's asking you to agree with the situation. Unlike Tracy, I am not trying to get you to cry for me. The reason I write in here the first place is because I hear that there is someone here trying to convince immigrants to voluntarily give up his job. And sure enough, Tracy has gone from being just plain belligerant to becoming a self-assumed social philosopher, suckin in a lot of you.
    Have you ever asked yourselves what the first thing Tracy will do when the immigrants go home? He will take the job with a company that he hates so much! I don't know which is worse, the hypocrisy coming out of Tracy's mouth or the gullible chumps who believe it. Actually I do, it's the gullible chumps who believe it. Guys like Tracy I'm used to.. they are a dime a dozen. They are the kid in class who always likes to start a rally that always fails.
  198. In an effort to appease some of the participants at this site, I have formulated a bill regarding immigration and H1Bs to be submitted to Congress. Here are some of the highlights of this bill:
    - H1Bs must understand that they are brought to America for a specific job and for a limited time period.
    - They must spend all their earnings in the U.S. and not worry about any family links back home. Have a sick mother back home, too bad. Dad borrowed money to purchase your air ticket, sorry.
    - They must pay additional taxes to support the local people who don't want to work extra hours. Of course, they won't qualify for any benefits.
    - If the economy takes a dip (meaning the NASDAQ continues to drop for more than 3 days in a row) they must be prepared to pack their bags and leave on a 24 hour notice. They won't be allowed to take even a single dollar back with them. God forbid, if any cash is found in their pockets while departing, they must be forced to spend all of it at the airport.
    - Once they leave, their belongings (including but not limited to: automobile(s), house, furniture, investments, extra food left in the refrigerator) will be seized and distributed amongst the poor American workers who had to suffer enormously due to their presence.
    - Once they're back in their home countries, they will be required to board a U.S. bound plane on a 24-hour notice, just in case the economy bounces back and we decide that its necessary to import more H1Bs to maintain the growth rates.
    - They cannot work for more than 8 hours a day. If any organization expects its employees to put in more than 40-hour weeks, the H1Bs will be immediately arrested on charges of brainwashing the upper management for making the poor American workers work so hard.
    - They will take full responsibility in the event of a bust in the IT market, and pay a fine ranging from $20,000 to $50,000 depending on their salary level.
    - They will be required to sign a waiver upon entry to the U.S. thereby surrendering their rights as human beings. We reserve the right to flip them on or off like light switches depending on the needs of our economy. We must start seeing the H1Bs for what they really are: a commodity, not humans. We use them when we need them and then discard them once we're done.
    - Periodically, they will be used as human pinatas, so the local population can let out its frustrations in a more civilized manner.
    - They will be required to change their last name to "ScapeGoatson" so that they could be identified more easily in the event of an economic downturn.
    - If any H1B criticizes America or display any form of joy on the layoffs of poor American workers, ALL H1Bs will bear responsibility for this crime and will be apprehended in the most severe fashion.
    - Lastly, any immigrants with brown skin will be considered to be H1Bs for the purpose of immigration, even if they're U.S. citizens or Green Card holders. They will be barred from expressing patriotism in any form or fashion.

    I hope that this bill satisfies everyone. At the same time, hopefully, the immigrants, especially those in the IT field, will see the benefits offered to them and would not be lured by our competitors such as Germany or France.
  199. New H1-B BIll - I LIKE IT![ Go to top ]

    Adnan, I agree with everything in your bill, except the 24 hour notice, I think that's a bit harsh. I would say, 2 months. Other than that, I agree with all other points. When the economy is in a recession, time to go. That should jive well also with the desires of Chiefy, who says we should all do whatever it takes to satisfy the desires of corporate America.
  200. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    Adnan, excellent. They say that humor is the prime indication of a higher intelligence; you not only possess it, but you do it with humbling style. In contrast, Tracy uses cynicism, hidden derogatory remarks, and misguided frustration to get his points across. You are the stronger of the two of you.
    I knew that once someone like me stuck up for you, we would be able to not only give people like Tracy what they deserve to hear, but maybe it will set them strait once and for all.
    The funny thing about this whole conversation is that at least Tracy is respectable because he tells you strait out how he feels. The people I hate most are the people like Timothy Brandon, who will never ever ever pick a side. Timothy is like that kid who always switches sides in a baseball game depending on who's winning.
    Anyway, after reading your post, Adnan, I am able to sleep at night because WE WON THIS ARGUMENT. There is nothing that Tracy or his minions can say to take away from the meaning of your message. It is very clear that Tracy is wrong. Thank you Adnan and goodbye to you all!

    PS: Tracy, you will have a very fiful night tonigt as you toss and turn in your bed, wondering how it is possible that the great Tracy Milburn is arguing something which even his own country disagrees with. You are dead wrong.
  201. {{The people I hate most are the people like Timothy Brandon, who will never ever ever pick a side.}}
    Ah, behind that superficial veil of suave assured demeanour, the horse breeds hatred and immaturity. You peurile chumps are so predictable. Since you barged in the middle of an extended thread like a clueless Strom Thurmond at the Playboy Mansion, perhaps you have overlooked my established non-vacillating comments and views on immigrants in relation to the american workplace. Go back and read while you bite into your cotton candy, before you accuse me of fence-riding.

    {{Timothy is like that kid who always switches sides in a baseball game depending on who's winning.}}
    Or shall we say, cricket game ? For better elucidation ?

    {{Anyway, after reading your post, Adnan, I am able to sleep at night because WE WON THIS ARGUMENT.}}
    So I was right, the horse did need a tranquilizer to put him to sleep. Poor kid, all these days he wasn't able to sleep at night, because he had not "won this argument". Boo hoo. Shame on you Milburn, you deprived Chief Enrindia of sleep, thus indirectly provoking his hallucinatory remarks.

    Rafiq, I liked your post. I don't think H1B's should ever be fined. Nor have to spend their money here. If the government wanted immigrants to spend their money on the American economy, they very well can pass incentives and laws that encourage it to be done voluntarily, such as bringing the sick mother over here to stay with the son indefinitely. Even though this does happen, it takes a good half a decade or more.

    Wasler, bro, what shizzedy are you typing there ? It's neither English nor Ebonics yo...I thought you were a european learning English.
  202. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    Timothy, "{{Timothy is like that kid who always switches sides in a baseball game depending on who's winning.}}
    Or shall we say, cricket game ? For better elucidation ? "

    Lol, how hilarious... that was a good one.

    I wouldn't waste your time even replying to that fool. He's not to be taken seriously, just blow the guy off. He's what's called an "internet troll," which is someone who thrives on getting people worked up over the computer, knowing he wouldn't ever dare say the same thing to the person's face. I, on the other hand, would be glad to say to anyone's face anything I've said on this thread, because they are my beliefs. I'm not rracist, yet racism being such a hot word that quickly makes peoples targets, is what some of our indian posters have tried to tag me as. That's bs, of course. My problem is with the greedy companies that demanded tons of h1b's during the "frenzy times" and now we, the American workers, are suffering for it, because there are no jobs, as Cisco lays off Americans in leiu of h1b's, and other companies have an abnormal % of them in their workforce. My assertion is, this is because they're cheap and willing to work for peanuts, because they know they will not be citizens here, so they sock all their American dollars back to India, Manilla or wherever, so that money escapes this system, and we loose the Keynsian multiplier of those transactions; it's like a memory leak.

    I also assert, the same thing that is happening with IT right now happened with the American auto workers; there are none now, becuase all that work is done overseas.
  203. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    Why don't you guys stop bitching about immigrants in USA. Don't forget even everyone of you came here as immigrant from europe. These country belong to red indians originally anyways.........

    It is the diversity that makes USA a world leader that it is. Keep in mind people.....
  204. To whom who question english and etc, I'm damages.

    I not one of folks who take and run, their a cost to everthing.

    In my younger day, I lost part of my eye sight, hearing and etc in the the jungle fighting. I did this, because I wanted to.

    Many of my friends help create what you enjoy now. Remember what you enjoy now was paid for by other great US citizens and non US citizens, who have a difference view of the US went it come take everything.

    You didn't create the US. It was created by many difference people from all over the worlds. Who wanted to give something back, no take it back with them. That what make this US strong, I don't see this now.
  205. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    chiefy, "Anyway, after reading your post, Adnan, I am able to sleep at night because WE WON THIS ARGUMENT. "

    Lol, ROFLMAO@that

    "PS: Tracy, you will have a very fiful night tonigt as you toss and turn in your bed, wondering how it is possible that the great Tracy Milburn is arguing something which even his own country disagrees with. You are dead wrong. "

    As if... that's all I'm sayin', as if.
  206. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    David, "I'm not from Texas and I'm not a red neck. I'm black American and I see all you H1-Bs coming here taking jobs away from Americans who care about their country. "

    David, you are correct, and chiefy knows it, India and other countries are a lot more strict on who they let work there. They realize that there are other societal motivations than being a corporate shoe.
  207. Chief America Anwser my Question[ Go to top ]

    "Question #2, Mr Chief America would you be willing to flight for the US if need be to paid back the US for what it gave you or would you run out. Or are you one those folks who only take and give an XXX why you can paid by the US. "

    I wouldn't bother. He's a coward who won't respond. He doesn't even realize the flaw in his own logic. He would have all borders be open, and a few large companies controlling the whole world by controlling third-world countries where children work 15 hour days to serve the almighty dollar. He doesn't even realize he wouldn't be one of the few that would control things, because he's too stupid.
  208. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    to tracy Milburn
    maybe YOU should give it a rest ...remember your not american .your just a looser nothing else dont forget that.
  209. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Johnathon, "U have a single digit IQ and oh yeah if u need to meet up since u think your so brave then... COME ON . would love to re-arrange your face.oh and by the way i know you ...and i watch you .choose your words u incompotent *******. "

    Here's my e-mail address: t_milburn at hotmail dot com Let's take it offline... I invite your response.
  210. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Shaji Nair, what's up with this new name?
  211. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    "...My question is what is the high-tech job situation in Canada right now? I bet it righteously stinks with Nortel cutting staff by 30% in the past year! What are Canadian wages like these days in high-tech. They were a lot lower than US wages even in the palmy days. With Nortel on the ropes I'll bet Toronto is a high tech bloodbath these days.
    ..."

    Can't speak for the east coast, but I know that the west coast is sucking hind tit. For example, KPMG -- one of the Big 6, was paying its IT consultants $35000 CDN per year, and that was in the late 90s!! The consultants were always travelling and being asked to work weekends without compensation. Although, with Canada's labor act, it costs nothing for an employee to run over to the Labor Board office and get financial retribution for this offense -- I should know, I was an employer myself at one time. Employees have it made in terms of getting what they were promised, but the problem is that the promise is so low to begin with! Right now a Systems Analyst with 10 years experience can get a job in British Columbia or Alberta for about $60000 CDN.
  212. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    "Right now a Systems Analyst with 10 years experience can get a job in British Columbia or Alberta for about $60000 CDN. "

    What I'd be interested in knowning is the real buying power of Canadian dollars vis-a-vis US dollars. With the much touted medical system and other welfare benefits, what kind of lifestyle can a System Analyst making $60000 be expected to maintain in Canada?
  213. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Well I suppose I am a good case study... my background is middle class, my father owns his own business in Canada and makes decent money. My mother was a homemaker, and now that we are out of the house, a home-enjoyer.
    A can of Coke in a Canadian vending machine goes for a loonie ( $1.00 ). A loaf of Safeway bread goes for $1.29 CDN. A Big Mac Supersized meal is around $6.50 CDN. So all in all, fairly similar with US in this respect.
    But keep in mind that although the integers are the same, their value isn't. I said that a Systems Analyst with 10 years experience makes $60000/year. Anybody under that would probably be in the ~50s. Let's settle at $54000/year for the average.
    If you are single, you can expect to take home about $30000 net out of that $54000. If you have a typical nuclear family like I do, with two children and a wife at home with the kids, your write-offs will bring your net up to about $35K or $38K. So suddenly that Coca Cola is looking mightily expensive.
    I had the kids early in my life -- did not have a chance to start my career before I started the family. So we lived in a rat-infested apartment eating Kraft Dinner and sausages 5 days a week while we climbed deeper and deeper into debt, just so that I could afford to go to school. I know I know, "Cry me a river", right? I will spare you the violins and get to the point.
    Upon graduation, I was $17000 CDN in debt, the kids needed new clothes but the credit card limit was sucked dry, and so I went out into the bright world looking for a way out. I came back home with the KPMG job. So now, I could *just* make the interest payments on the Student Loan and credit card debt while providing for the family. Yes, I suppose some of you may be saying "Why didn't your wife go to work?" -- to that I reply that we are simply not that way, and there is no negotiation on that. We want her to stay home until the kids are old enough to take her for granted, and then she will pursue her own career.
    Things looked pretty bad and pretty grim. Yes, I was automatically covered if I need open-heart surgery, but I didn't then and I don't now. The big difference between having the choice to pay for medical insurance or not is how the rest of the market reacts to this automatic benefit. In Canada, that benefit is absorbed into your salary and you pay for it, believe me.
       Then I got the news that saved the day and went to work for a dot.com in the US. Now we own our own home and vehicle, we have savings, all our debt is gone, and I don't feel guilty for eating out anymore. But I will never forget WHY I was able to get to where I am today -- because the IT industry in America finally got the market by the balls and forced a transfer of wealth from the executive branch to the working class that supports them. The elitist capitalists that drive the American company and subsequently drive the rest of the world's economy finally fell into a market where the keys to the vault had to be forfeited.
       Canada is good to its citizens in many ways, but in exchange we are forced to accept our lot in life as a worker bee. In America, there is of course the opportunity to go from worker to Queen bee and for the most part, people are empowered with a political system that allows them to choose their own destiny -- this is why the issue of immigration slave labor is a hot topic for me. I look at America as the brightest star in the galaxy of markets. I don't want it tarnished or ruined by those who cannot appreciate how it got to be the way it is. As an immigrant myself, I am determined to do whatever it takes to keep this place going strong -- this means not backing down from the unscrupulous b*stards that you meet along the way.
  214. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    "Can't speak for the east coast, but I know that the west coast is sucking hind tit. For example, KPMG -- one of the Big 6, was paying its IT consultants $35000 CDN per year, and that was in the late 90s!! The consultants were always travelling and being asked to work weekends without compensation."

    For those who haven't got the monetary exchange tables memorized, 35K Canadian is about equal to 23.5K US nominally. Frankly I'm shocked at this, particularly if you were trying to live in BC! Vancouver has a fairly expensive reputation.

    "Right now a Systems Analyst with 10 years experience can get a job in British Columbia or Alberta for about $60000 CDN."

    40K US. Wages were about 10K Canadian higher in Toronto I believe, maybe even 20K CDN higher. But the cost of living in Toronto is pretty high.

    I thought about moving to Toronto but decided I didn't wish to take a 40% cut in pay!

    "Then I got the news that saved the day and went to work for a dot.com in the US. Now we own our own home and vehicle, we have savings, all our debt is gone, and I don't feel guilty for eating out anymore."

    But surely you *miss* the 'security' of KPMG? ;-)

    I hit their BB on Vault periodically, and they are bracing for the layoffs. I'm *also* Big 5 and it's been bad here. email me at don at stadler dot fsnet dot co dot uk so we can compare notes. I know some people at your ex-company....

    "But I will never forget WHY I was able to get to where I am today -- because the IT industry in America finally got the market by the balls and forced a transfer of wealth from the executive branch to the working class that supports them. The elitist capitalists that drive the American company and subsequently drive the rest of the world's economy finally fell into a market where the keys to the vault had to be forfeited."

    I wouldn't put it that way exactly. A boom caused wages to pe pushed higher, even much higher. Some kids straight out of school were pulling down 70K (US) or more. It was bound to come back to earth somewhat. But market conditions remain promising in the medium term if not the extreme short term. Development projects have been on hold and are beginning to wake up I think. The key is to keep your skill base right up to date I think so one can stay at the top of the market.
  215. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Don, "I thought about moving to Toronto but decided I didn't wish to take a 40% cut in pay! "

    It all boils down to "net" income Don, you might take a 40% cut in pay but if you count all the benefits (birth, death, health, long mandatory vacations and holidays, long time off after having a baby for BOTH spouses etc. etc.) it may make a difference... I agree that for some people that are single and dont' care about that stuff it's less appealing but, when you have a wife and two kids, all that stuff plus job stability is very attractive.
  216. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    I wrote:

    "I thought of moving to Toronto but I didn't want to take a 40% cut in pay!"

    Tracy Milburn replied:

    "It all boils down to "net" income Don, you might take a 40% cut in pay but if you count all the benefits (birth, death, health, long mandatory vacations and holidays, long time off after having a baby for BOTH spouses etc. etc.) it may make a difference... I agree that for some people that are single and dont' care about that stuff it's less appealing but, when you have a wife and two kids, all that stuff plus job stability is very attractive."

    I'm sure it is. But you pay for it also. Wht's more, you for it when you don't use it, as Basil pointed out!

    Did you read Basil's post about living in a tiny apartment in British Columbia with a wife and 2 kids? Maybe you could take the same apartment!

    I'm not sure the job security is everything it's made out to be. Nortel apparently didn't have any problem cutting 40% of it's workforce though a lot of that was outside Canada. But a lot of it had to be IN Canada as well, seing as Nortel is by far Canada's biggest company!

    In normal times in a normal job market how long does it take you to get a job. My experience is anywhere from an hour to a month, depending. With a few savings and a lot of squeezing it turns out alright.

    In a hurricane like this one (shall we call it Hurricane Bill?) ;-), a larger severance combined with a lower standard of living can help keep you from hitting the wall somewhat longer. Even so I'd rather be in the US than in Canada during a recession. I think people are more likely to hire, albeit at a lower wage. In Canada the costs of hidden are probably hidden like an iceburg. But you can be sure employers are aware of those costs!
  217. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    OK, I wasn't planning on posting anymore, but I just got another really interesting e-mail from my colleague I refereed to earlier. Here it is, definitely worth reading! He asked to pass it on:

    I sent the following letter to Kay Bailey. Feel free to forward it to everyone.

     

     

                Mark

     

    I received a copy of your commentary in the Dallas Morning News, " Kay Bailey Hutchison: We need to recruit more engineering students 03/01/2002". It was sent to me by several currently unemployed engineers.

     

    I continue to be amazed at how out of touch our Texas elected officials are. The last thing we need to do is import more foreign engineers. The first thing we need to do is send home all of those that are here. I am closing my consulting company and expect to we working at Walmart soon.

     

    I wrote my first program at ETSU in 1973. I was first paid to program as a graduate student at Texas A&M. I spent many years in the oil industry working as both a software engineer and fill in reservoir engineer, until the oil bust. I survived the oil bust and eventually was hired by Mobil Oil as a consulting software engineer. I also consulted at Texas Instruments, Hitachi Semiconductor. I spent 2001 in Boston as an ESM consultant to Genuity and was personally responsible for over 300,000 dollars in income.

     

    As a result of the speculative bubble in technology in the late nineties, our helpful congress allowed companies to import inferior foreign software engineers by the thousands. The companies loved this because an H1B is a virtual slave and can be worked hard for low cost. By the way, the last ten years has seen a shift in corporate thinking from &#8220;employees are assets&#8221; to &#8220;employees are costs.&#8221;

     

    Now comes the inevitable bust in technology and it is all to familiar to me as an oil industry veteran. My colleagues are loosing their homes and suffering untold devastation to their lives, just like my geologist and engineer friends did in the oil bust. The best answer the president can come up with is the resurrection of &#8220;trickle down economics&#8221;. It did not work then and won&#8217;t work now. If you want to help, put ten thousand dollars into the hands of ten million people and not ten million dollars into the hands of ten thousand. The low end people will spend it on products which will benefit the companies selling these products, which will benefit the owners. Sort of a &#8220;trickle up economics&#8221;.

     

    And now you write this sage article on the need for engineers. Is this really more of a cover for importing more engineers for overseas? The truth of the matter is that we not only have enough engineers, we have the best in the world. But they are more expensive than foreign engineers and that hurts the bank accounts of the wealthy contributors to political campaigns. We can&#8217;t have that now can we.

     

    Don&#8217;t believe the wonks that are trying to sell the idea that the recession is over, none of us do. They lied about being in recession for over a year and excused it as &#8220;trying to jawbone the economy up.&#8221; Now they are trying to sell the &#8220;unemployment lags the recovery by six months&#8221; bill of goods, but we aren&#8217;t buying that one either. The real intent here is to make people think that we are at the bottom of the market and the bull is about to run, so invest quick! The investment business is in as bad a shape as everyone else and they are just trying to protect commissions.

     

    This is the first business led recession since 1929 and we know what happened then. The truth about this recession, is that this time unemployment lagged the recession upon entry. Technology companies had been in a difficult recruiting market for several years and they waited as long as they could to start layoffs, so the recession started long before unemployment began to rise. Consumer spending held up, so there is no pent up demand waiting from the consumer sector. There is nothing to drive a recovery except business spending. If businesses start hiring workers, they will feel secure and begin spending money, which will increase consumer demand, which increase profits. So watch the unemployment numbers and six months after they start to drop, the market will then begin to recover.

     

    Business led us into the recession and they will have to lead us out. But they will not. Sun just moved it&#8217;s entire core JAVA development group to Bangalore India. That is just on small example of the carnage that has been going on for the last couple for years in the software industry. It is easier to cut costs on the backs of US workers than by increasing revenue. So I predict this is going to get a lot worse. It is boom times in Bangalore and bust times in Plano.

     

    I will reply to mail message from my unemployed engineer friends with a copy of this letter and ask that they forward it to all of their friends. Perhaps, you will hear from some of them as well.

     

    Just remember that a liberal democrat is just a conservative republican that hasn&#8217;t been laid off yet.

     

     

     

                                                             Sincerely,

     

                                                             Mark McLeod

                                                             President, MKM Group, Inc.

                                                              

                                                                a Texas corporation( for a few more months)
  218. MKM Group ?[ Go to top ]

    {{The truth of the matter is that we not only have enough engineers, we have the best in the world.}}
    This McLeod individual seems to be bitter that his company is closing, understandably so. But why would he work at Walmart after the company's closure with all his expertise ? People with his experience never lose demand no matter the state of the economy.

    As for the statement that engineers here are the best in the world. True, but because a lot of engineers here are foreign, at least the engineers in the high tech fields. This is a mutual complex that Americans and foreigners share, each thinking they are vastly superior to the other in engineering skills. For my share, I've seen that foreign engineering students consistently and strongly outperform their American peers in American colleges. Then they get their H1B's and work. So then, McLeod's statement is correct, but only because we have the best engineers in the world who also happen to be foreign. From this description I am excluding those imported directly from abroad as opposed to those foreigners having had an american university education prior to getting their H1B's, and this category is the only H1B's I know.

    On a different note, titillate your senses folks with a stunning report on Human Rights abuses by Enron in... India!
    This one probably cancels out all the grudges for Indians coming here in place of pink slipped Americans.
    http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12525
  219. MKM Group ?[ Go to top ]

    "This McLeod individual seems to be bitter that his company is closing, understandably so. But why would he work at Walmart after the company's closure with all his expertise ? People with his experience never lose demand no matter the state of the economy."

    This puzzled me also. It sounds so final. He reminds me of the Cobol programmers who were getting layed off 20 years ago. I wonder whether his skill set was badly out of date also.

    But things are much different today than they were 20 years ago. It's not that difficult to land a contract job doing testing or technical writing. As for retooling, if a fellow has an internet account and a cheap old PC, surely nothing could be simpler than surfing to java.sun.com, downloading the Java SDK, and starting out on the Java tutorials?

    The Cobol guys didn't have it that easy back then. I think the real problem is the temporary loss in development jobs. So it is not impossible that a man might take work as a temp or at Walmart to keep food on the table (though IK still believe there are bettere choices, such as contract work).

    "For my share, I've seen that foreign engineering students consistently and strongly outperform their American peers in American colleges."

    This is true, but you are also comparing apples and oranges. Very few trained engineers attend full-time computer science or software engineering programs in the US. The ones who do usually do it nights or weekends. Better training is available on the job and you get paid for it also! So the US-born people in those programs are mostly liberal arts grads trying to break into the computer field.

    The foreigners aren't in the grad schools for the curriculum for the most part. The ones who attend those programs are usually the creme de la creme of their own (sometimes very good, especially in India) undergrad programs.Their focus is working on research programs more than on the often thin curriculums.

    When they get into work they often do very well. Remember, they ARE the elite in their countries. They have a lot on the ball. But they are no better than the best US engineers.

    I've seen lousy foreign engineers as well as good ones. I've seen Indian guys who were coasting on the fact they'd attended an IIT (India's best technical schools). I've seen non-IIT Indians do very well in the US because of superior graduate training.
  220. MKM Group ?[ Go to top ]

    "The foreigners aren't in the grad schools for the curriculum for the most part. The ones who attend those programs are usually the creme de la creme of their own (sometimes very good, especially in India) undergrad programs.Their focus is working on research programs more than on the often thin curriculums.

    When they get into work they often do very well. Remember, they ARE the elite in their countries. They have a lot on the ball. But they are no better than the best US engineers. "

    That's the nail on the head right there. A lot of people think Indians are so great and I tell them, "you really think h1b's coming over aren't going to be the top in their class?" Get real.
  221. MKM Group ?[ Go to top ]

    ""This McLeod individual seems to be bitter that his company is closing, understandably so. But why would he work at Walmart after the company's closure with all his expertise ? People with his experience never lose demand no matter the state of the economy."

    This puzzled me also. It sounds so final. He reminds me of the Cobol programmers who were getting layed off 20 years ago. I wonder whether his skill set was badly out of date also. "

    he was 1/2 joking guys. But truthfully, his company has just about sunk. You think his is the only one??

    Also, Don, you think running through Sun's tutorial will land you a Java job with so many people out there who can't even get one wih 3+ years experience? Do you think you're trivializing that a bit?
  222. MKM Group ?[ Go to top ]

    "Also, Don, you think running through Sun's tutorial will land you a Java job with so many people out there who can't even get one wih 3+ years experience? Do you think you're trivializing that a bit?"

    Honestly I would not know, Tracy. I don't know what this fellow knows. If he's going to work at the local Walmart (as opposed to the Software operation in Bentonville) he doesn't know much which is modern.

    In this job market doing a few tutorials won't do it. But it's a start, and you can learn a helluva lot from downloads and tutorials.

    Takes a while though. Meanwhile he can take a contract, do testing or support, or something detestable like that.
  223. Replace by H1-Bs[ Go to top ]

    I might have ask this question before, I gathering some data.

    If you been replace by and H1-B's!
    I would like to know about it and how did you know the person was and H1-B's.

    Thank You
    David L. Wasler
      
  224. Java position[ Go to top ]

    Check this ad from today's Sunday edition newspaper...how do you like them apples of them expecting you to work overtime and eat sleep drink java ?!

    I've included the email, in case there are Mansoor's and others watching:

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Senior Java Software Developer Position

    As a member of the NetBotz Software Development team you will be responsible for participation in the development of Enterprise class solutions to compliment our existing appliance and software product set. NetBotz is currently seeking the best-of-class Software Developers to expand our best-of-class product suite offerings.

    If you live for developing complete software solutions, and if you live, eat, drink, sleep, and dream about creative software development, then we're interested in you.

    If you like working hard (yes, this means overtime), playing hard (ping pong, foosball, cynical debate and beer bash), and contributing significantly to the success of your team and the company, then you should be interested in us.

    Minimum Requirements:

        * Bachelor of Science in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, or equivalent.
        * 5+ years of product related Object Oriented software development experience.
        * 4+ years of product related software development experience in Java.
        * 3+ years of product related software development in a UNIX environment.
        * 2+ years of product related software development experience using JDBC.
        * 2+ years of product related Java Applet and/or Java Servlet development experience.
        * Excellent communication skills.
        * Excellent project management skills.
        * Thorough understanding of client/server product development.

    Strong consideration will be given to candidates with:

        * 2+ years of experience in Java SWING User Interface development.
        * 2+ years of heterogeneous RDBMS related development experience.
        * Extensive background in TCP/IP sockets
        * Product level design and implementation experience in multi-threaded application development.
        * Product level experience in C/C++ application development.
        * Product level Linux-based software development experience.

    If the above description fits you, send your resume for consideration to jobs at netbotz dot com.
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Indians are smart. Darn smart. Americans complain about living on 53 K salaries (state tech average) and not being able to support a family. Look at how Indians save up...a friend of mine saw this at a fast food restaurant. Ostensibly four Indians relatively new to America decided to dine in. The $3.00 for a burger was deemed too expensive as they seemed to convert it into rupees and deliberate upon it, and after conferring together, the four indians decided to buy one burger together, and they split that burger into four parts and had their dinner. Amazing. They weren't starving, they did not look like they were close to disintegrating. But they saved up, and then these same ones end up sending tens of thousands of dollars to mom and dad. Incredible people. Incredible perseverance. This was a true story. I predict that in 15 years, the success of Indians will overshadow that of the American jews.

     
  225. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    The tracy milburns of america dont mind wearing NIKE shoes made in "third world countries" in the "sweat shops" but definitely dont like the Software development in the "thrid world countries"

    Tracy - Do want to be a cobler???

    Deepak.

  226. I don't either went they come here to replace US workers for LOT less money.

    Went I can't go their country and relace them.

    It nice to work here in the US, I paid a lot for my education them be replace by someone who been here only three weeks and be expected to train this person.

    If I have to train this person, he should not have been here in the first place.

  227. Can I relace an India worker in India[ Go to top ]

    "If you live for developing complete software solutions, and if you live, eat, drink, sleep, and dream about creative software development, then we're interested in you.

    If you like working hard (yes, this means overtime), playing hard (ping pong, foosball, cynical debate and beer bash), and contributing significantly to the success of your team and the company, then you should be interested in us. "

    How disgusting. The tables have definitely turned.

    Again, how can I expect to compete wth someone willing to work 15 hour days for 1/2 my salary? I can't. I won't. I'll change careers first before I work at a job where I can never see my family again. Maybe that's what they want. And companies love people they can take advantage of like that, who come from a country with a much less quality of life.
  228. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    deepak, "The tracy milburns of america dont mind wearing NIKE shoes made in "third world countries" in the "sweat shops" but definitely dont like the Software development in the "thrid world countries"

    You make many assumptions deepak. Instead of replying to your stupid, ignorant message, I believe I'll just tell you to go f yourself.

  229. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    david wasler, "I don't either went they come here to replace US workers for LOT less money.

    Went I can't go their country and relace them.

    It nice to work here in the US, I paid a lot for my education them be replace by someone who been here only three weeks and be expected to train this person.

    If I have to train this person, he should not have been here in the first place. "

    Absolutely correct, and agreed.
  230. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    So don't train him. Complain that he is too inexperienced to train.
  231. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    I did they lay me off.

  232. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    "I did they lay me off. "

    Lol, sounds like they laid you off before they had a much cheaper replacement for you, likely willing to work 15 hour days.

    "Greed is good" - The movie 'wall street' from the Reagan 1980's
  233. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    ""Greed is good" - The movie 'wall street' from the Reagan 1980's "

    Two answers:

    'Power is better' - Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton

    "We took no part in the "Greed of the 80's" - Hillary Rodham Clinton pre-Senatorial days

    The latter was strictly true in a legal sense. The Tyson futures deal took place during the 70's......
  234. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    Don, "'Power is better' - Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton "We took no part in the "Greed of the 80's" - Hillary Rodham Clinton pre-Senatorial days
    "

    Lol, how true...
  235. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    Oh hey everybody, Tracy is legit now. Now that he is being given the same treatment he chooses the mature path of ignoring people that dont agree with he. Would everybody please scroll back the last two months worth of posts to please understand this man's uselessnis?
  236. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    Man, three messages in a row ? Looks like someone needs to put in the 1st, second last, AND last word altogether. Someone give that self-proclaimed verbally gifted horse a tranquilizer.

    Ever since Clinton made the mistake of dancing around those village women in his trip to Enrindia, their people have become a bold bunch.

    Why does my Dell technical support have to put me on hold for 20 minutes on a "muzak track" prepared by pseudo english accented Indians, and then have them pick up the phone all the way from India for half-arsed recommendations ? Who can blame them, really. Micheal Dell doesn't drive Benz's here in town by paying for expensive local support.

    The horse with glib has some points though. He is here to stay because the laws permit him and want him. But our elected officials are for the (corporate) people, by the (oil) people , and for the .... ahh, who knows.
  237. Funny???[ Go to top ]

    Timothy, "Man, three messages in a row ? Looks like someone needs to put in the 1st, second last, AND last word altogether. Someone give that self-proclaimed verbally gifted horse a tranquilizer. "

    Lol, exactly... talk about pot calling the kettle black. What a bafoon.
  238. MKM Group ?[ Go to top ]

    Timothy, "True, but because a lot of engineers here are foreign, at least the engineers in the high tech fields. "

    Oh bullshit. Unlike you, that has not been my experience at all.
  239. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    With the much touted medical system and other welfare

    > benefits, what kind of lifestyle can a System Analyst
    > making $60000 be expected to maintain in Canada?

    Canadians are socialists, more or less. Their "much touted" medical system and "other welfare benefits" come at great cost -- TAXES... your 60k is not what you might think; your "big" salary is garnered to PAY for socialized medicine and to PAY for the hoards of others that don't make a "big" salary.
  240. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    "But I will never forget WHY I was able to get to where I am today -- because the IT industry in America finally got the market by the balls and forced a transfer of wealth from the executive branch to the working class that supports them. The elitist capitalists that drive the American company and subsequently drive the rest of the world's economy finally fell into a market where the keys to the vault had to be forfeited. "

    How often does that happen? Well, let's see, it was that way roughly from 1995 until now, where it is falling back and companies are "taking their revenge." believe me, back in the early 90's, people were making low 30's. And I'd forgoe some of the money I make for a guarantee of 90 days severence legally and to know that when I work for a company they can't get rid of me so easy because I don't rub elbows with the boss or play racketball with execs.

    I like certain things about this system, but I feel like companies need a LOT more checks around them and what they do (read: the Endwrong situation!). I also feel like they need to be held more fiscally responsible, unlike cisco who lays off thousands as they build new, big fancy buildings here in Richardson to make themselves look good by building their own little city, while they replace American workers who have families to support with h1b's from India.

    This system promotes the "get in, get rich and get out" mentality, and that is EXACTLY why we had all the .bomb's where people KNEW they had a business plan that was a joke, but because investors were so anxious to get rich, they freely handed out $ to any tom, dick or harry. It was the same way with the breakup of the telecom. And after those people got in and got their millions, and the company filed bankruptcy when i came time to produce, all the workers are now on unemployment and the state is facing a big problem because some guys' greed was way out of control. And yes, the guys that did it go unpunished.
  241. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    "...back in the early 90's, people were making low 30's..."

    Did not know that; just makes it all the more important that we keep things the way they are. As much as the dot.com boom was really stupid, it DID prove one very important thing -- the working class has the ability to gain much much more power than it does today. The only reason America's working class is abused today is because they have no assembly power. In Canada, the government itself is the assembly -- the politicians there believe that THEY are the flag of the working people. I know that sounds abstract, but if you take away the feeling that an exceedingly greedy exec ( key word: exceedingly. We have our own poor-man's versions of Kenneth Lay ) would be singled out and punished in Canada immediately, you'd probably be close enough to reality.

    I would really like one of you to tell me if my views fit into the Republican or Democrat line of thinking. Why do I get the feeling that I'm going to get labelled as both? I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, and the only I thing I can discern between the two parties is that the Republicans will get rich right in front of your face while the Democrats will pick up a homeless guy off the street, give him a shave and a shower, fill his gut up with his first meal in days, prop him up in front of the cameras, then go off into the sunset with just as much corrupt money as the Republicans. I honestly don't know what those two terms mean.
    Now Ross Perot and Ralph Nader werer guys that I could identify with. Why did the American people not vote for Ralph Nader as President the last time they were asked? He was the only guy who made any sense. I know that a lot of the country has been "bought off", but seriously folks, how many of you haven't? This is the part that I really have trouble understanding. Bush and Gore get on TV and start arguing like two children in a schoolyard, both showing the other how bloody ignorant they are, yet the voice of Ralph Nader is nowhere to be seen. Nader goes public saying "Uh, hello... why was I not asked to participate in this? I'm a legitimate candidate." AND NOBODY CARED TO DEFEND HIM!!! Unreal!
    Sorry to get off-topic there, but I feel that this is relevant. The democrats/republicans are not going to change America for the better -- therefore, don't expect a lot of our labor concerns to be addressed.
  242. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Just got an interesting e-mail from my friend at Cisco that is worth passing on:

    "Here's an interesting note I learned while home with a bug the last 2 days.

    In the 1990's more immigrants were allowed into the US than any other decade except one in the early 1900's. There were 9 million immigrants admitted in the 90's. I heard this while watching a segment on why the housing market is still endlessly booming. Part of it was attributed to the influx of immigrants that are now buying houses big ones for the extended family. The demand isn't only from aging baby boomers but from the latest transplants to the U.S. It was one of the more plausible explanations I've heard of why the housing market is still robust.

    The sad fact is I think 8.9 million of them work in the tech industry, or at least it seems that way. I know there are a couple groups here that contain more employees on some type of visa than actual U.S. citizens. As long as mgmt thinks they're cheap & a bargain, our profession will suffer the consequences. It doesn't matter how they actually perform, what matters is how mgmt "perceives" them. Since upper mgmt is only concerned with the bottom line, as long as they're perceived as cheap & plentiful, they'll push for more of them. We're just an expense to upper mgmt & W$, not an asset as they claim us to be in their B.$. rhetoric. Just look at how fast corp's cut staff to meet quarterly numbers. "

    I couldn't have said it better myself.
  243. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Your friend sounds frustrated, that is understandable. Perhaps some salve can be applied to the wound with these facts:

    1) Of the 9 million immigrants taken into the US between 1990 and on, I agree with him that most of those are probably because of tech. But let's be a little more conservative than 8.9 million. Let's say 7.

    2) Of the 7 million since 1990 I am estimating that at least 25% of them got Green Cards. This means that they are no longer immigrants and are legitimate US citizens and therefore they do not count in this analysis. Also that report your friend heard about immigrants buying houses -- that's the good news, I hope they buy more! And I hope they spend all their money here. Anyway, that leaves 5.25 million.

    3) The statistics can only track how many immigrants come into America -- there is no way of tracking how many left. For example, if an H1B'er comes into the US, loses his job before his three year term is up, and then decides to stay in the country illegally, it is very unlikely that he will get caught. The statistics will assume that he is still working. But we want to single out those that stick around when they are not supposed to as the troublemakers, so let's assume for brevity that out of 5.25 million, another 25% of these immigrants were indeed honest and did indeed fulfill their H1B obligations and return home. That leaves us with ~3.93 million immigrants left working in the US tech industry, which last time I checked employed about 18 million Americans in the corresponding fields of programming, developing, or software engineering( any disputes on this figure are welcome ). That comes out to 2 out of every 10 of these particular IT jobs in the US being given to an immigrant.

    4) Out of the 3.93 million immigrant visa applicationsm, how many were double counted? ie. I have applied for 4 TN Visas -- have they counted me as 4 people?!?! Let's say margin of error is negative and thus round it down to 3.5 million immigrants. Still, 2 out of 10 holds true.

    5) Finally, out of the 3.93 million, how many of them are having a negative impact on our jobs, our salaries, our lifestyles? Well, first of all 3.93 million is a LOT of people, it's definitely enough to make a difference.. but of that 3.93 I am not willing to believe that any more than half of them are the "bad immigrants", the kind that will work for less than their American counterpart. This means that 50% of the immigrants in the US are good for the economy and the other 50% are bad.

    I would be interested in hearing others' ideas.
  244. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    I dont think 7 million immigrants could be tech workers. The quota for H1B was 65,000 per year till 1998 and from 1999 it was raised to 1,15,000 . So in 10 years the total number of H1B tech workers who came to US could not be more than a million.
    Since H1Bs can be extended for a max of 6 years I dont think the current number of H1Bs will be more than 4,00,000. Taking your figure of 18 million Amercians in tech jobs H1Bs make up just 2.2%
  245. Hi:

    Your number might seem correct on the surface. But, There more then number here. I been to companies, that were completely or 95% India, that were 70% US citizen two years ago.

    Another thing, There is major abuse going on from India Contracting firms bring in H1-B.

    Question, If I was in India, could I replace you. Would the India groverment say it legal for me to replace an India citizen.

    My statement is bring in new and more H1-B's went the market is so slow is only flooding the US IT and technical workforce, which prevent wage going up.


    I have many H1-B's friend who were not being paid their overtime, by the same people who brought them here. As Manager I was very upset, that I was being charge overtime and it was not being pass-on.

    This same person had four people to single person room.

    This the results of flooding a surplus of people lead to abuse on both sides, which need to be stop.

     
  246. {{My brother in law still works at EDS and they now expect
    everyone to be putting in 55 hour weeks as a minimum. He says all of his coworkers are right wing nuts and are willing to do the time.}}
    Right wing mutts. And 55 freaking hours a week ? At that rate, you'll be getting your prostate poked and popping prozacs before you even know it.

    {{We should get these deranged immigrants Green Cards as soon as possible }}
    I don't think there is anything deranged about these immigrants. They're looking for work, americans are looking for work. If lowering there asking price to $42/hr is the only way they can get it, they'll gladly do it. It's much more than they could've dreamed of back home. Besides, that's how businesses sometimes compete here as well, by lowering prices. So if an immigrant does it, why is it deranged ?

    {{Why did the American people not vote for Ralph Nader }}
    Are you kidding me ? With the second strongest lobby in the US being the jews, you think they'd let Nader with his arab ancestry to get his voice heard ? Nader does make sense in a lot of issues. As does Ross Perot in oil dynamics.



  247. Another thing, There is major abuse going on from India >>Contracting firms bring in H1-B.

    The abuse was rampant during the boom period 1997-99. Now there are hardly any new H1Bs entering US. The people looking for jobs are all guys who have been laid off after working 2-3 years.
     I know the current H1B situation since I was in US from 1997-99 and have a lot of friends in US. The job market in India is almost as tight as in the US. If those guys return back it is extremely difficult for them to get a decent job here. The skills they develop in US is very different from what is required by Indian cos and MNCs having their base in India.

    >>Question, If I was in India, could I replace you. Would >>the India groverment say it legal for me to replace an >>India citizen.
     I agree with what you say. The blame is more on the US laws than on the companies or immigrant workers.
  248. Arvind Kumar writes:

    "The abuse was rampant during the boom period 1997-99. Now there are hardly any new H1Bs entering US. The people looking for jobs are all guys who have been laid off after working 2-3 years."

    Yes, this analysis seems to be right on target, though there also are the poor no-hoper grad students who are deperately trying to get their first H1B in the worst possible market for them. Not many will succeed.

    "I know the current H1B situation since I was in US from 1997-99 and have a lot of friends in US. The job market in India is almost as tight as in the US. If those guys return back it is extremely difficult for them to get a decent job here. The skills they develop in US is very different from what is required by Indian cos and MNCs having their base in India."

    This is interesting, because it helps explain some of the desperate behavior we're seeing. I imagine that India gets more of it's share of maintenance work, for example. Guys from the US don't know C or Cobol well. Also I imagine that people who have been working in Bangalore all along have several major advantages over returnees. The stayers don't have to fight the perceptions that they will head back to the US the moment things pick up, for example.

  249. David, "Your number might seem correct on the surface. But, There more then number here. I been to companies, that were completely or 95% India, that were 70% US citizen two years ago. "

    Ya, like Cisco!
  250. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    "I dont think 7 million immigrants could be tech workers. The quota for H1B was 65,000 per year till 1998 and from 1999 it was raised to 1,15,000 . So in 10 years the total number of H1B tech workers who came to US could not be more than a million.
    Since H1Bs can be extended for a max of 6 years I dont think the current number of H1Bs will be more than 4,00,000. Taking your figure of 18 million Amercians in tech jobs H1Bs make up just 2.2%."

    I agree with the above figures. Since so many H1B guys get their Green Careds after 3-4 years I expect the number of H1Bs is 400K max. Add twice again as many Green Card holders for a total of 1.2 million.

    Don't forget there are other occupations which use H1B/Green Card, such as doctors and nurses. The latter especially.
  251. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    The figure of 18 million would certainly include everyone in IT and related jobs - marketing, sales, admin, support developers, managerial... But more than 95% of H1Bs are software developers. Since this thread is being mainly accessed by developers everyone here feels that the number of such H1Bs in US is too high.
     Also H1Bs are less experienced and get laid off faster than other experienced guys. Hence a large number of them are in the job market, providing competition to US citizens looking for a job.
     
    I really dont think H1B is a big threat to developers in US. The trend to to move work offshore could be the major long term issue.
  252. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Arvind, "Also H1Bs are less experienced and get laid off faster than other experienced guys. "

    NOt when they get 1/2 the pay they don't. Otherwise Cisco wouldn't be as bad as they are.

    "I really dont think H1B is a big threat to developers in US. The trend to to move work offshore could be the major long term issue. "

    Now, I do agree with you on that. I definitely think the h1b's are hurting us, but at least SOME of those guys spend their money here, or at least some portion of it. No, the real CRIME in this economic system is allowing companies to "farm out" entire it staff, esp. development projects, to third world countries - and the trend is getting scary. With the internet, this is becoming more and more feasible. Deployment is just an e-mail. The only barriers are language and time zones.

  253. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Tracy,

      You are correct about net pay not being everything especially to a person with a spouse and kids. A shining example of this in Canada is:

    1) For every child a person has in Canada, the government sends a monthly cheque to your home. I don't know how much it is now, but a few years ago, I got $250.00 per month and I have two children.

    2) The province of British Columbia adds an additional $100 per month. They call it the "Baby Bonus".

    3) When you have a child, you are permitted by law to leave your place of employment for one full year and your employer is obliged by law to rehire you at the exact same position upon your return. You are to be paid a salary from the Canadian government of what I believe is 65% of your current salary during your 1 year leave of absence. The rationale for this is to encourage more new mothers to spend the first year of their child's life at home with their child. This is especially good news for single mothers or families with 2 working parents -- having children doesn't mean your whole career gets thrown to the wind.

    NOTE: for those of you just reading this, please read my previous notes on Canada for the full context of my description if you think I am pro-Canada which I am not.
  254. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    "3) When you have a child, you are permitted by law to leave your place of employment for one full year and your employer is obliged by law to rehire you at the exact same position upon your return. You are to be paid a salary from the Canadian government of what I believe is 65% of your current salary during your 1 year leave of absence. The rationale for this is to encourage more new mothers to spend the first year of their child's life at home with their child. This is especially good news for single mothers or families with 2 working parents -- having children doesn't mean your whole career gets thrown to the wind.
    "

    WOW. That is amazing. How much $ is that worth? I couldn't put a $ amount of something like that.

    Guess what happens here when a couple has a baby? Often, it means a pink slip for mom.
  255. The Chicken or the Egg?[ Go to top ]

    Also, do not forget that the male figure of the family is also permitted to take 6 weeks off to be with the new child, without danger of losing the job; although I am not sure if that is paid time off or not. This 6-week period is called "parental leave". Both male and female can take this leave, giving the women in actuality 13.5 months of time off without danger of losing the job.

    Yes, that is something that Canada should be proud about. Detractors may point out that the disruption to the labor market with these "revolving door women" makes this kind of plan ridiculous: au contraire!

    Replacing a women in the Canadian marketplace who has taken her 1-year leave for child-rearing has become BIG BUSINESS. I have direct experience with this. My sister is a young professional, but the biological clock was ticking, that kind of thing. So she gets married and pregnant, working until she is 7.5 months along. With 1.5 months left until the birth date, she takes her parental leave( so long as you are pregnant, you can take you parental leave whenever you want ).

    While she is gone, the office she works in promotes everybody up a level and hires an entry-level college kid who needs a job with the resultant void at the bottom of the ladder. In her particular case, a contractor is also brought in for a temporary period of a year to help fill the experience void.

    Upon the expiry of her 1 year leave, my sister goes back to her job. The contractor is released and lo and behold finds work across the street filling in for another woman who just left her job for a year. The contractor is ecstatic because he is totally racking up the bucks doing this, my sister is fulfilled because her child has bonded with her instead of the day-care center nanny, my sister's employer is neither here nor there about it because they never really lost any productivity during the time and they got to participate in the social and economic welfare of the country, and finally my sister's co-workers are elated at the opportunity of gaining some great experience in the year that she is gone.

    Meantime, my sister's husband got to take 6 weeks off and play Nintendo the whole time she was taking care of Junior, but that's a different story...
  256. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    BTW, I sure as heck wish Canad was closer and had the weather we have here in Texas... cold air and I don't mix at all!
  257. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Don,

      I think your strong macro and micro analysis of the capitalist world in general and IT sector in particular is sound and accurate.

      Economic growth is mainly driven by invention and innovation. Probabaly around 15 century living standards in Europe, China and India were not very different, however successive revolutions like commerce revolution in 16 century, industrial revolution in 17 th century followed by ever increasing pace of invention and innovation like railways, electricity, etc enabled people in developed countries to enjoy relative affluence unimaginable for other people. However this process was not a smooth and happy ride for many workers. The capital accumulation process which involved very bad working conditions for millions of people was a brutal but unavoidable cost to be paid.

      Only after 1960's and 1970's people in western Europe and in North America working class people were able to afford cars, paid vacations, college for their children, etc.

     In this process western economies gradually replaced muscle power with brain power, which freed many workers from hard manual work and created millions of jobs in higher value adding jobs for the better educated new workers.This led to ever increasing value addition supported by ever accelerating information accumulation.

     This economic growth process was marked by investment led boom and busts until WWI, driven by new technologies. After war increased government activism and big governments led different kind of business cycles caused by goverment actions and politacal upheavals.

     We should evaluate .com boom and bust in this context. This is the first time our generation is experiencing a classic capitalistic investment led boom, driven by IT and a subsequent but inevitable bust. This time due to our global village its spillover effects are felt across world due to the advances in communication and transportation.

     Since pace of invention and innovation is not decelarating we should expect more growth and wealth creation in the future.

     
  258. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    kaan uran writes:

    "Economic growth is mainly driven by invention and innovation. Probabaly around 15 century living standards in Europe, China and India were not very different,"

    There is evidence that until about 1750 China and India were on balance slightly richer and more productive than Western Europe except for England.

    "however successive revolutions like commerce revolution in 16 century, industrial revolution in 17 th century followed by ever increasing pace of invention and innovation like railways, electricity, etc enabled people in developed countries to enjoy relative affluence unimaginable for other people.

    "However this process was not a smooth and happy ride for many workers. The capital accumulation process which involved very bad working conditions for millions of people was a brutal but unavoidable cost to be paid."

    From what I've read the 'horrible' working conditions weren't bad compared to the primitive farming and herding many of the laborers were used to. The problem was more one of control. The new factories didn't observe the masses of religious holidays which Ag workers did, plus there was no long winter to rest up during the way farm workers did.

    Factory labor felt 'forced' to work longer hours, and this led to trouble. During bad times farms usually have some food somewhere, though in China and India there often were famines. fired factory workers and their families could end up on the streets of the town, or in the workhouses.

    "Only after 1960's and 1970's people in western Europe and in North America working class people were able to afford cars, paid vacations, college for their children, etc."

    Perhaps in Europe this timeframe is correct. It was 20-30 years earlier in the US.

    "This is the first time our generation is experiencing a classic capitalistic investment led boom, driven by IT and a subsequent but inevitable bust. This time due to our global village its spillover effects are felt across world due to the advances in communication and transportation."

    We had similar recessions in the early 80's and the early 90's, but other industries took the brunt in those recessions, except in certain regions. For example in the Boston area the minicomputer makers took the brunt of the early 90's recession. Conditions were far worse in Boston then than they are today. Westchester County, north of New York City also took an enormous hit as IBM hemorraged. A lot of those people moved into the RTP area of North Carolina and flooded the labor markets there. I had to go to Kansas City to get a decent contract in 1990 because of that influx!

    Then, as now, survival can consist of getting away from the worst-hit sectors and companies. There is still work out of the mainstream IT center cities, I believe.

    The good news (such as it is) is that this is the worst recession in IT that we will likely see in our working lifetimes. Really bad downturns tend to come along every 30-40 years in a typical industry.

    "Since pace of invention and innovation is not decelarating we should expect more growth and wealth creation in the future."

    This is the best point of all. Recessions like this one are like a cattle prod to the rear end. People and companies leave the old and are forced to rethink and start over. Some go bankrupt and the equipment sold for pennies on the dollar. Energis, a UK business telecom company is going through it this week. They will be bought out or sold off, and their competitors may have a little less competition soon.

    Telecoms companies in particular have to rethink their business model fundamentally. The survivors will anyway. Less than a decade ago the long distance business was a license to coin money. Rates were maybe 50 cents a minute and costs much lower. Even three years ago average LD rates were 15 cents a minute and AT&T/Worldcom/Sprint were still making some money. Last year rates fell as low as 4 cents a minute and everyone hemorraged.

    When something like this happens there are three possible ways out. A) Some companies die and are swallowed. Which allows other's room to raise rates a bit. Survivors cut their costs to the point where they can make money on the new rates. A rise in rates to as little as 6 cents a minute would probably put the industry into the black even now.

    B) Demand grows and new investment dies for a while. Eventually spare capacity is used and rates rise.

    C) The government steps in and mandates rates at a profitable level.

    For individuals it is equally as difficult. We have to take a long hard look at ourselves and change our habits. Less time on the net websurfing. Learning a new skillset. I've been doing that and it is HARD let me tell you! Pick up and move the family to where you can find work, maybe 1000 miles or more! And saying 'yes baas' to egomaniacs because the choice of walking out the door has much worse consequences than we're used to dealing with.
  259. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    Speaking of web-surfing, I've been doing way too much of it the last couple of weeks.. although I have to say I am a better person for it because I learned a lot through this discussion we had here.

    Back to reality... I will check in again when this thread hits 750-800 posts and see if the old gang is around.

    Good luck to everyone,

    Basil.
  260. Immigration issues[ Go to top ]

    "Speaking of web-surfing, I've been doing way too much of it the last couple of weeks.. although I have to say I am a better person for it because I learned a lot through this discussion we had here. "

    Ya, I think I'm done with this thread as well. Other than getting in touch with johnathon, this will be my last post here guys, the thread is taking FOREVER to come up. cya
  261. This a great place for this info


    http://www.doleta.gov/h-1b/whatshot/whatshot_ldf.asp

    WASHINGTON - U.S. Secretary of Labor Elaine L. Chao announced December 11,2001, a $20 million grant competition for H-1B Technical Skills Partnership Grants that will train American workers in high skill occupations. "We need to focus on getting Americans back to work. These grants are a long-term solution to domestic skill shortages in high skill and high technology occupations," Chao said. "We are assisting businesses by empowering them to make decisions about what training should be offered, what outcomes should be achieved and how they should be managed." The goal of the training grants is to prepare Americans for high skill jobs, reducing the long-term dependence on foreign labor. Eligible applicants generally are partnerships that consist of at least two businesses and may include any educational, labor, community organization, faith based organization or workforce investment board. Funds for the technical skills training grants come from user fees paid by employers who recruit high skilled foreign workers under the H-1B visa program. The fees-for-training plan was authorized by Congress in 1998
  262. Lab[ Go to top ]

    {{They are trying to lure more programmers from Indian and Muslim countries!}}
    Indian countries ? There is only one India.

    {{The second issue is managerial and cultural. Does the US, Germany, and the UK treate H1B's (work permit holders) or permanent immigrants as equals? }}
    So what exactly is the procedure for H1B's in England ? Is it a 3 year probationary period followed by permanent residency ? What is Germany's IT salary equivalent ?

    {{The skills they develop in US is very different from what is required by Indian cos and MNCs having their base in India.}}
    How exactly are the skill sets so vastly different ?

    {{Ya, I think I'm done with this thread as well. Other than getting in touch with johnathon, this will be my last post here guys, the thread is taking FOREVER to come up. }}
    A server side webpage at that, someone ought to start a Job Crunch Part II thread.
  263. issues[ Go to top ]

    <html>

    <head>
    <meta NAME="description" CONTENT="SS Html test">
    </head>

    <body text="#333333">

    For example, I see workplaces with many Asian workers, senior technical people, but not a single asian senior manager. How is this possible?

    </body>
    </html>

    It's the remnants of post-colonialism. The british are still smarting from being kicked out of India and having to withdraw from the middle east.

  264. issues[ Go to top ]

    Some more reviews about your comments.


    1.In my all life, I have seen work place where a idiot white colored manager, who allocate $100,000 dollars for a work which only required $10,00 and smart senior developer who take that money home even after chatting in yahoo in 60% of his work time in office.

    2. How come such a manager in place of current and Developer in place of current information technology ? cuz your mama's had enough money to send your white brothers to business school even though your brothers born as a dump ass hole fool ever born in this universe.

    3. I have seen another version of company where smart managers and developers working together where I have seen only white colored people only among the woman who sit in front desk for receiving phone calls and sending fax. There is no managers as you mentioned.

    4. Finally I don't think people like you is good enough for a healthy conversation, so take your shitty ass out of this discussion room and go to some south western country land coffee shop to make a new conversation.

  265. issues[ Go to top ]

    HAHAHAHAHAH!!! Don, you are totally right!!! This Shaji fellow is a set-up! Please, Shaji, whoever you really are, keep writing your comments. It's very important that we are reminded of the humor in topics like this, because it keeps us humble and lets all them bad spirits out... Once again, touche "Shaji"!
  266. issues[ Go to top ]

    You know what? I agree with Don. This guy is not real. I have yet to meet an Indian in the IT industry with such crappy written English.
  267. issues[ Go to top ]

    {{" If you don't it's wise to shut up about how the US ought to dress our women in burquas and limit their civil rights. Ain't a gonna happen! " }}

    I am shocked that being an educated man and having had some exposure in other countries you can make such a blindly ignorant comment. Nobody is clamoring for women in US to wear burqas, no matter what some right wing moron wants you to believe. If you scratch the superficial false excuses presented by the mainstream media and really care to delve into deeper reasons read this in your spare time:
    http://www.davidduke.com/writings/10-03-01.shtml

    and this one:
    http://www.davidduke.com/writings/09-17-01.shtml

  268. issues[ Go to top ]

    {{ "Tracy, you are just FULL of double-entendres today! So which is it? Is it unfortunate that our women don't dress in burquas and have limited civil rights, or is it unfortunate that fundy Muslims don't shut up?!!!!
    " }}

    Have you guys ever thought of it from the perspective of the Muslim women themselves ? The problem is we judge them based on our highly sexualized concepts. The truth is in the Muslim world, the vast majority of women have the option to cover or not cover, except in Saudi. If you ask the women who cover, 90% + actually prefer it that way because it is a means of protection and modesty to them. Over here, women are objectified and sexualized in the guise of freedom. Even though we men enjoy it, and it caters to our base desires, the truth is women who dress scantily have no respect in even our highly liberalized society. The main point is the Muslims don't impose or even encourage american women to dress that way. That is never on the agenda. Women are respected when they dress modestly, whether they are nuns or Muslim women covered. If americans really followed biblical injunctions they wouldn't find Muslim mores all that strange. But religion, like 'care', is the other part of the 99.99% here.
  269. issues[ Go to top ]

    Adnan,

      In keeping with the humor, I would like to point out the irony in your last sentence. You in fact meant to say:

      ".. I have yet to meet an Indian in the IT industry with such --> crappily <-- written English..."

      Because the word "written" is a verb in past-tense, you need to use an adverb to describe it. The word "crappy" is inappropriate, as it is an adjective that can only be used to describe a noun, for example:

      ".. India and America have a crappy relationship, as if they were an estranged couple.."

      I threw in the metaphor about the bickering couple for good measure.
      The fact that crappy and crappily are not legal terms is besides the point.

       Hahahah... just ribbing you...
  270. issues[ Go to top ]

    Heheheh, you're absolutely right. I read my own sentence twice, and it doesn't make sense at all :)
  271. issues[ Go to top ]

    I think this has some relevance:

    http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1001/taliban.html

  272. Basil, "
       On a side note: Can you imagine what it feels like to be Tracy's paperboy? Boy, if that kid misses the porch, old man Milburn is running down the street in his boxers with one sock on and a dirty undershit screaming "C'mere boy! I'll teach you to mess with me!!!" hahahaha... just kidding around Tracy.
    "

    OK, you guys that are telling me I overreacted are acting like he said I was a jerk or something. No, he called me stupid because I'm white:

    "I have also espoused the value of the immigrants in the tech. sector because caucasians as a population (as opposed to individual examples) seem to have less of an aptitude for technology related subjects than asians, not to mention IQ (which has been determined).")

    He also said I wasn't qualified to work in IS because I won't work 70 hour weeks:

    "Software industry is not a business for 40 hours / week freaky guys. Thos who talk about week-end plans, Dating new chicks and worrying about take care about the kids from previous relationship, I don't think they can get or manage a software job in current market"

    He also called me a KKK member, which is twisting my views on h1b's around.

    Now, I don't know about you guys, but I think either of those three points alone would be fighting words if he said them to my face. Yes, I'm very angry that he said these things to me behind his keyboard. Can you blame me???
  273. Okay, Tracy. Now I am really confused as to who you're really mad at.
    Your first complaint:
    [["I have also espoused the value of the immigrants in the tech. sector because caucasians as a population (as opposed to individual examples) seem to have less of an aptitude for technology related subjects than asians, not to mention IQ (which has been determined).") ]]

    - I never said that. In fact, I take hard exception to such a ludicrous comment.

    Complaint #2:
    [[He also said I wasn't qualified to work in IS because I won't work 70 hour weeks:
    "Software industry is not a business for 40 hours / week freaky guys. Thos who talk about week-end plans, Dating new chicks and worrying about take care about the kids from previous relationship, I don't think they can get or manage a software job in current market" ]]

    - Again,not me. I would never criticize anyone or their culture like this.

    "He also called me a KKK member, which is twisting my views on h1b's around. "

    - This one was never aimed at you. My mention of KKK was a reference to Mr Brandon's disgusting comparison between blacks and chimps.

    Do you even read the names of the people posting these messages?

  274. Adnan, Tracy was mostly complaining about the Shaji post(s), which I found extrememly comical myself. A classic flamebait, and Timother (and to a lesser extent Tracy) bit on, hook line, and sinker.

    It was funnier than hell, IMHO. One long boast. To summarize: "I'm smarter than you, I make WAY more money than you, I'm going to take over you're country, AND you're women prefer me to you 'cause I'm so good in bed!" All in semi-broken english.

    It was so good in fact that I smell a rat. I wonder whether the writer is actually an Indian guy or whether he's some joker who has never been to india? ;-)

  275. {{A few days ago, I went to see my uncle who's spending the
    last days of his life in a nursing home in Texas.}}
    So finally, he and his progeny have become true americans. A south asian in a nursing home ? That is shocking. The values of patiently caring for the elders has eroded. It's common knowledge that they treat seniors like hen poop in nursing homes. I'm sorry that your uncle has to live his last days in a nursing home. Besides, your uncle seems mentally competent enough to eloquently express the 'happiness and freedom' he found in America, so why has he been banished to a nursing home.

    {{And, I find this whole concept of comparing IQ levels amongst different races rather ridiculous. About the only purpose, such comparisons will serve, is to create more hatred and racism. }}
    To the insular mind, that is the only purpose. It is meant to
    close the IQ gaps, not to breed hatred. Have you ever heard of Mensa breeding hate ?

    {{My experience has been that for every Tracy Milburn I found
    ten Don Stadlers.}}
    Brown...you know the rest.

    {{"Let me tell you that some of the smartest people I have ever
    met are American. And I have travelled to a lot of different
    countries."
    God forbid, if I, with my brown-skin, had said something like
    that it would have annoyed some people to no extent :) }}
    Good point, but he is being a normal canadian by fulfilling his america junior mentality role. ;-)

    Yes, football it is. Or as it is called here, soccer. The immense popularity of the sport in every continent except N. America (excluding Mexico) cannot be grasped by us living here.
  276. "Yes, football it is. Or as it is called here, soccer. The immense popularity of the sport in every continent except N. America (excluding Mexico) cannot be grasped by us living here. "

    Soccer is stupid.
  277. Mansoor, don't listen to these guys. This country is not just about money. You will enjoy other types of freedoms and experiences that are unimaginable in other parts of the world. Sure, you will find a few bad apples here and there. Specifically, people who have probably met four middle-easterners in their lives, read a few articles about the colonial past of Asia and imperialism, and fancy themselves as experts on the subject.
    What you will also discover is that there's plenty to love about this country, whether you're white or brown. The asian diaspora is alive and kicking, and generally doing better than many other ethnicities. The real issue is not H1, J2EE, or the current economic downturn, but, finding a stable future for yourself and your future generations. This is exactly why people migrated from Europe a few hundred years ago. Its our turn now!
  278. "Mansoor, don't listen to these guys. This country is not just about money. "

    Lol!

    Homer Simpson once said to his wife, Marge:

    "Marge, you live in a land of fairy tales, and leprechans!"
  279. "What you will also discover is that there's plenty to love about this country, whether you're white or brown. The asian diaspora is alive and kicking, and generally doing better than many other ethnicities. The real issue is not H1, J2EE, or the current economic downturn, but, finding a stable future for yourself and your future generations. This is exactly why people migrated from Europe a few hundred years ago. Its our turn now! "

    So, in other words, you feel like your race is taking over? And you called someone on here a racist???
  280. "So, in other words, you feel like your race is taking over? And you called someone on here a racist??? "

    Why do you see this as a competition between races? No one's taking over. We're just trying to escape the "old world" and seeking a little bit of happiness for ourselves and our children. BTW, I was talking about asians in general, who are not a single race. If you read the previous messages carefully, I was simply praising this country for what it really stands for. I am not sure what prompted Mr. Brandon to spew off so much venom (brown nosing, Rafiqs and Shafiqs, subservient behavior, blacks getting paid millions of dollars for one jump, etc.). Its not too hard to see who subscribes to racism here.
  281. adnan, "Its not too hard to see who subscribes to racism here. "

    You are correct there sir.
  282. {{ adnan, "Its not too hard to see who subscribes to racism here. " }}

    Racism is feeling superior to another race based on one's skin color, and/or treating another race in an inferior manner based on their skin color. Study the definition very carefully. If I or the white population decided not to buy the sports illustrated swimsuit issue because they featured all black females, then that's not racism, it's personal preference because blacks aren't as appealing to the eye as whites. I have never met a white man who married a black woman, only once or twice. I've seen rich black men married to white women. The motive for the marriage or the attraction is obvious. I will hire a black programmer over a white programmer if he programs better even if his face looks like a chimp's. Also, I would sell my property to a black man as to a white man, and deal in business with them. I would have children taught by a black teacher, if he's qualified, even though he may look unpleasant. If I were a true racist I would not give the blacks the equal opporunity that all of us are afforded. If I feel the white color is more pleasant to look at than the black color, this is not a renegade voice, it's an attitude in built in humans and present all over the world. I would bet Rafiq and Monsoon would never marry a black woman because their import/export dad's and stay-at-home mom's would skin them alive, and also because I believe Shafiq himself would not like to marry a black. That does not make him a racist.

    As for the south asians brown nosing, I based this on my experience of living around the world. Not based on reading a couple of articles and meeting 4 mid easterners. I've met/interacted with/seen tens of thousands of south asians and mid easterners in person and have studied and felt their post-colonial attitudes. If you read my message carefully, I was deriding us getting more pay in the mid east based on white skin. Who am I fighting for here ? Use your head Shafiq and Monsoon.

    The KKK accusation is thrown without compunction. If it weren't for whites' sympathies and donations, all the black associations in America would collapse in a week.



      
  283. {I have never met a white man who married a black woman, only once or twice.}

    What I meant to write was I have never met a white man who married a black woman, only once or twice have I seen that on TV.
  284. "As for the south asians brown nosing, I based this on my experience of living around the world. Not based on reading a couple of articles and meeting 4 mid easterners. I've met/interacted with/seen tens of thousands of south asians and mid easterners in person and have studied and felt their post-colonial attitudes. If you read my message carefully, I was deriding us getting more pay in the mid east based on white skin. Who am I fighting for here ? Use your head Shafiq and Monsoon. "

    Do you know me personally? No, right? So, you took your knowledge that was a culmination of your interaction with tens of thousands of middle-easterns (hmmm... seems a bit far fetched, but, whatever) and started judging me by the same token. This is what you call "stereotyping". The post-colonial attitudes might have inflicted an earlier generation who were not too far removed from the Western colonial days. But, that is a thing of the past. You need to seriously adjust your imperialistic mode of thinking where the white man, out of sheer sympathy, doles out justice and peace to the not-so-fortunate colored-skinned creatures. And, please, once again, we don't need you to stick up for us or patronize us. We're just as capable to fight for our rights, albeit in a peaceful manner. Thanks, but, no thanks!
    Peace.
  285. "Racism is feeling superior to another race based on one's skin color, and/or treating another race in an inferior manner based on their skin color. Study the definition very carefully. "

    Correct Timohty, very correct. Racism is a word that gets used today for people's own benefit.
  286. "I will hire a black programmer over a white programmer if he programs better even if his face looks like a chimp's. "

    Lol, did you ever the see Dilbert skits that included "Zimbu the monkey?" They were hilarious!!!
  287. "Or in Mansoor's case, borrow some of your Dad's import/export money and buy some real estate in Karachi or New Delhi. Then relax in Tahiti and let the streaming rent pad your swiss Bank für Handel & Effekten account in Zurich.
    "

    Lol!
  288. Timothy Brandon writes:
    <
    Is it really TheServerSide.com, or have I mistakenly gone to a KKK website? I think, in the aftermath of Sept 11, the racists and bigots are feeling safe to step out of the closet.
  289. Timothy Brandon writes:
    "Blacks are still called slaves in the east, they are looked down upon in the orient, harassed in our country because their skulls' shapes and facial features resemble that of gorillas, but they still receive the best in our country. Just for running 9 seconds in a 100m race or jumping to place a ball in a net they are paid millions. In fact, the essence of freedom that blacks enjoy is best epitomized by the rather obscene fact that they can date and marry blond and blue eyed women. "

    Hmmm.. is it really TheServerSide.com, or have I mistakenly gone to a KKK website? I think, in the aftermath of Sept 11, the racists and bigots are feeling safe to step out of the closet.
  290. "Hmmm.. is it really TheServerSide.com, or have I mistakenly gone to a KKK website? I think, in the aftermath of Sept 11, the racists and bigots are feeling safe to step out of the closet. "

    How about this quote from Adnan Rafiq :

    "What you will also discover is that there's plenty to love about this country, whether you're white or brown. The asian diaspora is alive and kicking, and generally doing better than many other ethnicities. The real issue is not H1, J2EE, or the current economic downturn, but, finding a stable future for yourself and your future generations. This is exactly why people migrated from Europe a few hundred years ago. Its our turn now! "
  291. "His chances are ... 0 ... if he does not try. There are lots of java jobs cropping up in Texas again as we speak. With his J2EE experience he won't have too much trouble. "

    Lol!

    As if. I have several freidns out of work right now with 3+ yeas of j2ee and ejb's. Forget about it. The market here is HORRIBLE. I was shocked to call up my best recruiter and find she had been... RIP
  292. "Anyone here experimented with .Net yet ? "

    Rofl
  293. "London needs J2EE experienced programmers as well."

    Tim, I see and have seen a lot of job ads on Jobserve. What I don't hear about is much actual hiring. I have a friend with good J2EE background who has been on the market for a couple of months. He gets a lot of interest from headhunters but no bites yet. Not one single interview that I am aware of.

    I don't know. Certainly I don't know about the markets in Ireland or Austin Texas. BTW I always thought of Austin as the high-tech capital of Texas. So why would there be more demand for J2EE in Dallas and Houston?
  294. {I don't know. Certainly I don't know about the markets in Ireland or Austin Texas. BTW I always thought of Austin as the high-tech capital of Texas. So why would there be more demand for J2EE in Dallas and Houston?}

    I cannot remember in which magazine I saw the Texas technology jobs percentage pie chart. But I do remember that, even to my surprise, Dallas had the highest number of tech jobs by a good margin, followed by Houston. Austin was either third or fourth. Remember that there are loads of high tech jobs in non-high tech companies. Austin has the reputation for being the silicon hills/prairie because of the number of high tech companies and high tech research.
  295. "BTW I always thought of Austin as the high-tech capital of Texas. So why would there be more demand for J2EE in Dallas and Houston? "

    Austin was a lot biggeron .bombs.
  296. Doesn't matter if h1's are clearnig faster. They are sending jobs out anyway. Chk. the link.
     
    "Sun shifts core Java unit from US to Bangalore"
    http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=400660

     
     
  297. "I heard recently that there's a provision for premium processing of H1B Visas by paying a $1000 extra and INS assures that you get an H1B change done in 15 days or they would return the amount back."

    Cedric Beust writes:
    "Actually, no, it doesn't help. I never heard of this, it doesn't sound too serious (if anything, the INS has been slowing down the processing of visas, especially since 9/11) and there is no mention of it on the INS official Web site (http://travel.state.gov)."

    Cedric,

    I've heard of this program. I think it was brought on during Clinton's last year. The theory was that the employer would be willing to pay for expedited processing while the INS could hire more people to speed up the long queues. I've heard waiting times were 3-4 months on the West coast and 3-4 weeks in the East (different offices I think).

  298. Apology to the poster, the premium processing does indeed exist. The relevant URL is (thanks, Dimitri):

    http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/services/employerinfo/premprsv.htm

    Sorry for jumping the gun (probably hit close to home :-().

    --
    Cedric
  299. Very nice article, Cheng. Any very nice replies here, people. Too bad TI market seems soooo much worse in my country. In fact, I'm on a strange position: I'm not even graduated yet: It may be a year or so before I finish my Computer Science course, but I'm employed in the TI industry for about 2 years now. Why that? I'm willing to take low salaries for good jobs.

    In other words: recession is here, so noone wants to pay fair for employees. However, the market need is here also, so they're hiring even undergraduates.
    I hope global TI scene is better two years frow now. That's when I'll probably start trying to leave my country. Till there, I'll be learning as many languages as I can :)
  300. Knowing the feeling with TN visa's. I am canadian citzen as well and the Canadian Market is dead as well. Most U.S.A companies aren't hiring or the process for hiring maybe 6 months or longer.


    Not much you can do, other then network but that hard when so many people are looking for work.

  301. Hi Greg,
    I was contacted by a recruiter about two weeks ago regarding a contract job that might suit you if you are willing to come back home. They want:
    4 years Java (surprised that it's not 8 years, eh?)
    JSP, servlet, XML-PDF translation (Xerces) Apache webserve, FOP, Oracle 8, JDBC, NT, Struts, TogetherJ or Visual Age, UML. They wanted a few people to start immediately, and I am not sure if the job is still available. The rate was about 60-80 Cdn. The recruiter's contact info is:
    dan at austinpark dot com
    Dan Crimele
    Account Manager
    Austin Park Management Group
    www.austinpark.com

    Good luck and let me know if anything comes out of it...
    Cyrus
    csani@communicopia.com
  302. I am in the bay area and looking for a J2EE job. My experience has been more with JSP than EJBs. I have been for more than just a few months unfortunately. I guess because I had not been doing enterprise java that long compared to what employers are currently looking for, (about 1.5 years), I am not getting much response to my resume, and I'm also a Canadian with a TN. I thought my refactoring skills and interest in design patterns would get people's interest, and from reading some of your posts, and thinking about my resume, it doesn't really show how I would spend so much time making sure I'd be coding the right things and figure out how to test things by consulting with product management.

    If you are in the bay area, I'd like to hear from you - where I should be looking that I may not have looked, what you're doing to keep busy.

    dominique_plante at yahoo dot com

    Take care all, and thanks for sharing.
  303. Gregory Peres - you might want to take a look at Computing Devices Canada in Calgary. I worked there in the mid 90s and I heard they were into some big contracts these days.

    Cheers

    Cory
  304. Hi all,
    I too am looking for a contract position. I have 6 years server-side Java experience and am a Sun Certified Java Programmer and Developer. I can fill any role on a Java team - from Architect to developer.

    my e-mail: jahlinuxmon@yahoo.com
  305. Hi to all!
    Hey, this thread is good! I've learnt so much here about job-hunting. Ok, i just want to comment on the VISA problems faced by foreign nationals who would like to work in the US.
    I thought this was not a problem nowadays because we live in a connected world. I live here in London (originally from Swaziland). I'm currently taking a gap year from university to gain work experience. I managed to get myself a job with www.jwebhosting.net of Hawaii in Java technology. My project manager usually sends me the new project and I do it from my room. We communicate by email throughout the projects to rectify any problems until the project is done. I have so far finished two projects.

    So here is my question? Why don't companies in the US consider employing foreign nationals this way? JWebhosting does. Then visas would not be a barrier anymore. Maybe most companies are scared that it is risky to employ somebody that they have never met or interviewd before? However, employing anybody is risky anyway, even if they are your girlfriend.

    Consider this: even when i'm down in Swaziland in the mud hut I can still work (from my laptop) and FTP the work across to Hawaii so long as I can produce enough electricity from the windmill or whatever to run my laptop :)!

    Just giving my two cents on the matter :)

    Ernie
  306. even when i'm down in Swaziland in the mud hut I can still work (from my laptop)


    Wow, this must be a Ritz Carlton mudhut, to have broadband or wireless Internet accesspoint! ;-)

    Labor globalization is ideal and the most efficient solution; however politics and nationalism come into play! US companies are getting flack for hiring H1-B's when there are plenty of unemployed (and overpriced) local programmers; imagine the protest if US companies employ all foreign workers from abroad! This is a touchy subject, and I see pros and cons of both sides... but in this down economy, I would sway more towards supporting our local work force first before thinking international. I have a lot of friends who are unemployed or teetering unemployment, and my support goes out to them first!

    Gene

  307. "I have 6 years server-side Java experience and am a Sun Certified Java Programmer and Developer. "

    Has Java even been out that long??

    Also, certifications are silly. I thought everyone would have learned that during the "mcsd" days.
  308. Tracy-
    Java was released in beta in 1995 and 1.0 was released in 1996. I started working with Java in early 1996. Since we are now at the end of 2001, I worked with Java for all of: 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001. That makes 6 years. At the end of 2002 it will be seven years. Do you see how that works now?

    Do you have any other questions about the computer industry that I can help you with? :)


  309. Tracy -
    Take a look at this. Let me know if there's anything you need help with.

    Java History:
    http://java.sun.com/features/2000/06/time-line.html
  310. "Tracy- Java was released in beta in 1995 and 1.0 was released in 1996. I started working with Java in early 1996. Since we are now at the end of 2001, I worked with Java for all of: 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001. That makes 6 years. At the end of 2002 it will be seven years. Do you see how that works now? "

    You smartass.

    My point was that it's barely been out that long. And don't be proud of working with jdk 1.0, it was a toy. It means nothing that you worked with those early toy releases, only that you knew the "core" language, which I learned in about 1 month.

    "Do you have any other questions about the computer industry that I can help you with? :) "

    Lol, I seriously doubt it.
  311. So is any one looking for J2EE Jr Architects/ Team Leaders? NYC/Boston area would be great! So is Maine;NH;other parts of MA.
  312. In these desperate times I'd like to chime in with my own call for help. You can view my resume at http://www.elastica.com/resume-us.html

    Prior to doing Java I worked primarily with Objective-C on NeXTSTEP/Openstep. I recently took advantage of the situation and took time off after my most recent contract to get married and now I'm looking to return to the US in search of new work in the new year. Let me know if there's
    a good fit for my skillset.

    Cheers.

    robert@elastica.com
  313. "I recently took advantage of the situation and took time off after my most recent contract to get married and now I'm looking to return to the US in search of new work in the new year. Let me know if there's
    a good fit for my skillset. "

    Lol, good luck. I feel sorry for you.
  314. H1 and Foreign workers[ Go to top ]

    I didn't mean to hit a nerve here with this topic, but I guess during this bad economy and jingoistic times, this is definitely a sensitive issue, so let me gingerly put in my two cents and move on.

    Cedric, my two points are not my sentiments, but what I observe from my past 3 place of employments. Companies do feel it's "expensive" to hire foreign workers because like you said, it takes time to acquire H1-B's, and it's not always a sure thing. Hence given two candidates of equal caliber, a company would be adverse to sink 3 months of training into a foreign worker to find that there are problems his legal status, hence would rather play it safe and hire the resident.

    I personally have no issues with foreign workers competing in the same job space; after all we are a world market. I believe in the best person for the job, period. Besides, had it not been your phone references, Cedric, I wouldn't have received my offers! :-)

    Gene
  315. H1 and Foreign workers[ Go to top ]

    Just a note on the topic: I am not in the US, but also work on a special work visa outside of my native country.
    It is interesting to note that the real competitors to resident's positions are not the H1-type of workers (on many job-boards these days there is an adverse sentiment towards these people with extremes even mentioning dumping with lower salaries and lower living standards...). One "hidden" factor these days is off-shore development, which seems to be flourishing. Consider here the huge investments firms like Motorola (for example) make outside of the US while closing down entire facilities at home. Look at where the XBox is produced. Slowly, the software industry is adopting the same model as Nike and other had done in the manufacturing...Sometimes I wonder if the smartest move these days wouldn't be launching an off-shore business. And I know many that do it successfully.
    So the challenge that I see at a "macro" level is more towards what would be the best decisions for an IT professional...Will the IT services transform into a commodity done cheaper anywhere else like all the other goods, or there is something special about it and there is place for everyone at the table?
  316. H1 and Foreign workers[ Go to top ]

    I believe so. India has been a major country us outsource it's projects to. Now there are also China, Malaysia, Vietnam... entered into the race. Sooner or later everything will be outsourced to these countries.
  317. H1 and Foreign workers[ Go to top ]

    Just some notes for your fake research on H1B visa holder's job hunting issues. I have been working on H1 visa in USA since 1997 and been to a number of positions including a senior consultant postion in one company you mentioned as mail-list network you used to found a job. Nothin wrong with your comments but problems are with the attitude of people who has last name as like your's. Telling you one thing in my last 10 years of professional service in formation technologies, H1B visa holders are best IT people and they speak best english that your Los Angeles community( Hope you understand whom I mean by that). Second thing I have been working with a number of guys who has the same attitude as like your and my conclusion is that your lacks of knowledge and low brain always temping you to find two shity reasons you mentioned. Thanks you God and shame about the company culture wwho gave you a job. I don't think you have any technical or professional status to deal with a good work culture in any civilized community in this universe.

  318. H1 and Foreign workers[ Go to top ]

    Shaji,

    I'm sorry, but I couldn't understand a word you said.
  319. Hi Cedric,

    Generally, I agree with you. I think the main problem is the fact that most companies are just not aware that bringing an H1-B guy on board costs $2K and takes just two weeks, which is equivalent the time necessary to get a "normal" Sw Engineer.

    When I was leaving BEA on Nov, the 1st, I was told that working for WebLogic as a Sw Engineer is money in the bank. After three weeks of searching for a new position I feel like it doesn't count this tough time. May be my H1-B overweights it.

    Gene is right, networking is everything as it's really hard to get talking even to companies having real positions. They have already installed firewalls in form of recruiter's voice mails :)

    Regards,

    Slava Imeshev
    imeshev@yahoo.com
  320. J2EE Development/Architecture Positions[ Go to top ]

    Hi all,

    I am from chicago and have been watching the J2EE movement in this area for some time. There seems to be increased and renewed interest in J2EE among several industries - financial, manufacturing, insurance, telecom companies. This is good as chicago has been a major microsoft focussed city for so long.

    Does anyone know of good headhunting companies in Chicago for J2EE opportunities?

    Thanks in advance.
    J2EE Architect.


  321. J2EE Development/Architecture Positions[ Go to top ]

    Maureen Gormley at Camden-Vale in Oak Brook.
  322. Why did you leave BEA? Just curious, that seems like a strong company to work for right now.
  323. j
  324. First of all, we are looking for senior Java software architects. Please send your resume to leigu at yahoo dot com .

    Let me throw in my two cents. I see so many people claiming to know Java or J2EE and expect to be handed a six figure job. It seems like people lose sight of the fact that all these languages/tools/skills are just means to solve real business problems. Knowing some program languages is a just small part of software engineering. In this market, it is not enough to just know Java or how to use/admin/deploy using WLS. One has to demonstrate how to use Java/J2EE/UML/Desing Patterns to solve really business problems. It is the ability to work with business analyst to come up with requirements, the ability to model and realize use cases, and the ability to implememt and unit test. Good communication skills always helps.
    Just my two cents.
  325. We are looking for Java Architects in Boston area.
  326. Please Mail me ur Id

    I am J2EE developer with 2-1/2 yr experience looking for new assignments.


    my email id is shivanet@rediffmail.com
  327. Hi Liu,
    First of all I would not consider myself a Senior Architect , because i hold 2 years of experience in the field but i do posses good communication skills and most of the requirement you mentioned, I have worked on EJBs and XML/XSL/PDF using Xalan and Xerces and applied UML and Design Patterns , worked extensively on Together 4.2, JBoss Application Server and Linux 6+ and do hold some working experience with LDAP (OpenLDAP) the main thing that i would like to highlight is that i am right now in India and working in a good company involved in this kind of development.. but looking at brighter oportunities.. what are my chances and where do i stand.
    Would you mind if i sent you my resume.. and if yes where.. ?
    Cheers
    BS
  328. Hi Lei Gu,
    Sorry for the typo :-)
    Cheers
    BS
  329. Hi Binoy and everybody else who is interested,
    The position is in Boston and one must have at least five years of working experience. Or a master's degree with at least three years of working experience.
    Send your resume to leigu at yahoo dot com .
  330. Hello Binoy

    Your curent in India seems interesting.
    Can u tell me where you work currently.
    Can u also send me a link to your company's website.

    Regards
    Vijay(v_vijay at iname dot com)
  331. Hello Binoy

    Your current job in India seems interesting.
    Can u tell me where you work currently.
    Can u also send me a link to your company's website.

    Regards
    Vijay(v_vijay at iname dot com)
  332. This is a vitally important point. The use of JAVA or any other language is only a means to the end of resolving business use cases. Thorough domain knowledge of business processes is mandatory. If the programming team does not possess this knowledge, the program team lead must be adept at working authentically with the business domain experts, converting the business requirements into technical solutions on behalf of the other team memebers.

    Additionally, enterprise scale application development must use functional partitioning; this is the elegance of J2EE and other framework architectural practices.

    Also, an integrated design methodology, converging UML/MDA design practices, infrastructure simulation capacity/performance studies, intelligent traffic engineering, and application performance profiling yields superior, sustainable, extensible, responsive application deployments and implementations.

    I can provide more information about this integrated design for performance optimization methodology. Reach me at rosenthal_bruce at hotmail dot com, or 415 239 7594 - Voice/415 377-8521 - Cell.
  333. Hai,
    I think that at present slump nothing is safe.But speaking boldly J2EE is the best architecture compared to MS technologies.But we have to cope up with changes and walk accordingly.so the best part is to stick to the present job and adjust with the changes.Lets be very optimistic of J2EE.
    Bye
  334. Cedric Brust writes:

    >> "1) difficulty/expense in acquiring H1 visas
    2) problem with language, assimulation into company culture and interaction with the team"

    Being a French living in Silicon Valley, I have the unfortunate pleasure to have dealt with this problem first hand (although never personally).

    Nor is it about language or culture: immigrants are usually very willing to learn the minimum of English that will allow them to get their work done. <
    I'm going to make a comment which I hope you don't take too personally.... I've been jobsearching in Europe for more than a decade, and there is no doubt in my mind that the French job market is the most insular and hardest to break into of any country I know. The only other country which comes close is Germany (remember 'Kinder statt Inder'?). And even Germany takes a lot of yanks, Brits, and Irish.

    And 'being willing to learn the minimum amount of' French? Fuggeddabout it! You had better be fluent or you're out of luck! The UK, Italy, the Swiss, the Dutch will all take 'foreigners' but the French will not.


  335. Bonjour,

    je suis journaliste au Nouvel Hebdo, je cherche des témoignages de Français ayant décidé de quitter la Silicon valley à cause du contexte économique moins favorable...

    Peut-être est ce votre cas, ou connaissez-vous d'autres Français dans cette situation. Je serais ravie d'avoir une discussion avec vous par mail s dot chicaud at nouvelhebdo dot com pour savoir si vous trouvez que l'ambiance dans la SV s'est dégradée, s'il est difficile de revenir, s'il on trouve facilement du travail en rentrant.
    dans tout les cas merci !
  336. The problem is not the H1-B, but how our congress, who sold us out with the last H1-B passages.

    This is the only country were it legal to replace a US worker with a non US worker.

    Please write or call your congress person and tell them to close the floor gates of H1-B.

    I call the DOL and try to complain that I was replace by an H1-B at a much lower rate, and was expected to train this person that working free and them would be paid an un-livable wage and was told that was legal.

    I ask is it was legal to replace a US worker with a non US worker, Yes it was legal.

    I WANT SOMEONE TO PROVIDE ME WRONG
  337. david, "This is the only country were it legal to replace a US worker with a non US worker. "

    Well, it may not be the only one where it's "legal" but it's the only one where it's very accepted. According to Don, few countries outside the US are as welcoming to h1b's. He said Germany, UK etc frown on them.
  338. Tracy writes:

    "Well, it may not be the only one where it's "legal" but it's the only one where it's very accepted. According to Don, few countries outside the US are as welcoming to h1b's. He said Germany, UK etc frown on them."

    Not quite. I have actually been writing about two or three different issues here. The first issue is legal. Today Germany and the UK are at LEAST as welcoming legally as the US is! They are trying to lure more programmers from Indian and Muslim countries! This has just begun to happen in the past couple of years, BTW.

    WHat this means is that Europe is going to drain off some of the talent pool which ahve been going for H1B's heretofore, Tracy. Which ought to make you happy!

    The second issue is managerial and cultural. Does the US, Germany, and the UK treate H1B's (work permit holders) or permanent immigrants as equals? None of the countries treat work permit holders as equals. Arguably Germany protects them better legally at least.

    What I was getting at was the opportunities the three countries offer immigrants over the long term. Culturally and in terms of career growth neither Germany nor the UK offer remotely the kind of opportunities available to US Green Card holders.
  339. Test Message[ Go to top ]

    This is a test message
  340. I agree, the problem is with the the latest H1-B bill the US Congress wrote, which was driven by India lobbyist money.

    Us Citizens and H1-Bs need to be one voice to stop flooding the US with new folks.

    <Per the DOL information their has been no slow down in the numbers of request for H1-B's visa, just who been making the request, mostly contracting companies who advertise jobs via the Internet. Who them in return contract their folks out. They charge huge fee for their services to bring people here went their no jobs.

    Arvind

    I had job offer for mentoring in India, I needed a work premit or work visa, the India grovernment refused, to many India out of work.
     

    The bottom line, as long as the DOL is letting in more H1-Bs went their is a huge surplus, it will hurt both of us, wages will never go up for skills sets.


    Per my latest conversat with the DOL and congress discuss the abuse of the H1-B law. Their sources say there still a major shortage of IT and technical worker in the US.

    Both the DOL and congress stated they receive only 5 complains about abuse and etc. for Jan.

    So, it time for both side (US Citizen and H1-Bs) to say stop their major unemployement now in these fields , no more visa till it improved. If both side can't come together as one voice, there no hope to improve our work space, or expect to under paid for your skill sets.

    This will be my last word on this subject, I'm not a complainer. I'm a results person, if we can't protect our work space now them their hope for childerns. The whole technical market will leave the US. I'm in for the money, not make some corp rich off the time I spend learning my skill sets.

    To all you people who compain, have you discuss your issues with congress or the DOL.

    Thank You
    David L. Wasler
  341. I think that another good place to be while the job market is not good, is school. If you go for a Masters now (any kind would do) you'll be done by the time the economy will be good again, with more skills, more connection, more knowledge or even new knowledge.

    You need the money, of course, but that's another story.
  342. Gene,

    thanks for your article.

    I am a java programmer in the UK. We have been experiencing similar problems to you guys. 6 months ago, I could walk out of a java job and get three offers within 48 hours, now times have changed and many java programmers in the UK are being made redundant. The problem is amplified by the amount of contractors who are not getting repeat conracts, who are now moving into perm work.

    I have now been out of work for 4 months and may not get work until now until after Christmas.

    Although I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone, it's comforting to know that other people are in a similar situation, as I was beginning to think it was me ;-) !

    Good luck everyone with your job search.

    By the way UK java guys try:

    www.jobserve.co.uk
    and
    www.jobsite.co.uk

    dan
  343. Hi, I work in the UK in Java having moved over from the Dark Side (VC++). My contract runs till next year, but the company I'm working for are taking on 3 permies(probably to replace me the final contractor). Having interviewed the so called Snr Developers and looking around me at the some of the team members I've begun to realise just how much crude the industry has attracted due to the high salaries.

    And to my amazement the 3 candidates were offered positions. Good news is that things over here should pick up after Xmas. Good Luck if your out of work.

    Andy G
  344. UK market[ Go to top ]

    Dan, this was interesting. I'm a yank working way out in West London near Heathrow. Still working, cross fingers. Been through two layoffs and still going.

    I tried a jobserve listing in Switzerland and got strong interest (my employer is not strong so I'm looking about some).

    One thing recessions teach you is that we're all in the same market, whether contractor or perm.

    Are things looking up for you now?

    Cheers
  345. Hello,
       I am a junior Java Developer. I have my degree in Mathematics. I had a chance to go work in a ".com" and now you know the story. But fortunately, I gained some very valuable J2EE experience. I have been out of a job for over 5 months. Any advice from seniors? I am also currently learning Unix and Linux..

    Dave
  346. Hi Dhvani,

    This recession is hitting jr developers (2 years or less exp) the hardest. Thousands are being layed off because the typical company thinking is 1) a good sr developer is worth 3-4 jr developer, and costs less 2) developers straight out of college are cheaper than jr developers, and perhaps same potential.

    My only advice is to hang in there, and perhaps consider going back to school...

    Gene
  347. Hi Gene,
    I have to agree with you 100%. It is all about supply/demand. Last year I was lucky if I could find someone with two years of working experience. Now it is totally different. I am swamped with resumes from folks with ten to fifteen years of working experience. And the other thing is that last year we were willing to train someone who didn't have all the skills. No more. Now we are looking for the exact right fit.
  348. Hi Gene,
    I am Java developer. Recently I attended a seminar on .NET and I felt it is 99% similar to Java. Because of the shift of VB to a lot of OO stuff in .NET, I feel most of us Java developers can fit very well into the .NET jobs very easily. For java developers, mastering .NET is just a overnight learning while it may be steeper learning curve non OO programmers. Do you think the market also shares a similar opinion ? What is your advise if some java developer wants to approach .NET job market ? What should be the path ? Well, my fellow java developers ...I mean no disloyalty but trying just to hangin in there. Java is still great.
    Hari
  349. The majority of us evolved from the MS camp of C++, VS 6.0, MFC, STL etc... So yes, in terms of adaptability, Java developers can jump into the .net pond with very few swimming lessons. Furthermore, I think it may even be ethically acceptable for turncoats in these bad economic times. But once the market picks up, I expect all Java expatriates to wash all the .net germs out of their mouths with plenty of soap and repledge their allegiance to Sun!

    :-)

  350. My idea is that if everyone wants an experienced programmer (especially financial). Why not give out apprenticeships? I have gone without a job now for a while. Lets say a company gave me position, with the same money I am making now (which is nothing ),I am 110% positive I would keep there systems running like thay were godsent. I hope this isn't desperation setting in.
    'Needs a Job in New York 'JDeveloper
  351. I am currently working as an Integration Architect for Enron, where it is just financialy a complete disaster(bankrupcy). From working at a software company(Tibco) in a bad economy, I left to join a more stable energy company. Now b/c of corrupsion in the serior management, I go to work everyday with a question mark on my head. Does anyone know of any good contacts(decent recruiters or links) for J2EE/Tibco architecture and development work. I am just starting to look and hope to be able to start Jan 16 2002,

    Fahd

    falfadli at hotmail dot com
  352. Not laid off yet, but want to move[ Go to top ]

    "I am currently working as an Integration Architect for Enron, where it is just financialy a complete disaster(bankrupcy). From working at a software company(Tibco) in a bad economy, I left to join a more stable energy company. "


    Bad news, guy. Sympathy......

    I thought that EAI was relatively less a disaster area than most things. Not so?

    Had you thought ot trying Tibco again? Or looking at Tibco suppliers/customers/integration partners?
  353. Have you read Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck. If not, go to a library get it out and read it, BEFORE, you do anything drastic!!!
  354. I read it while ago while I was out of work. Things could be a lot worse. At least, I didn't have to start eating fried dough and gravy. I have been making my own salted pork though. :)
  355. Good article. I have been contracting for a while and it's been 2 months looking for contract work. Most of my contacts are too, looking for work. Anyone looking for a J2EE programmer in the Washington DC area?
  356. Hi all,

       I am here for some valuable suggestion from you guys.

       I work for a Software Solutions Company in India. I have been a hard core java guy for the last 3 and 1/2 yrs.

      Java guys have been the most affected in the layoffs that happened in Indian IT companies. As a result of which most of the java guys are moving towards Microsoft Technologies esp .NET. But i want to stick to java as I feel that java will bounce back once the economy starts improving. I am not sure if this is the right thing to do now. What do you guys say.


    Ranjith

     
  357. hi there,

         a lot of predictions are being made abt the economy bouncing back....can anybody out there give a rough time estimate

    couple of us guys out here are hanging with the java(j2ee)flag and goin through the crunch

    a time based prediction would have been a(big) relief
    (lol)
  358. Hi,

    Up until last month I was working for a consulting firm in San Francisco as a J2EE architect. Usual deal where I work 80 hour weeks and see only my salary and they charge close to $400/hr for me. Once the manager of my office openly said to someone who worked for me that I could not leave due to the current job market and my visa restrictions.

    Finally on a moment of being really pissed of (they said they were going to put me on a non local VB/Webmethods project) I posted my Resume on the boards. I was surprised when a couple of interviews came through. I went to the one interview and the guy really liked the fact I still had a job and offered me a J2EE contracting position with a salary increase. Guess where I work now.

    Times are indeed tough in the bay area but not impossible. Regardless of you situation it is always worth while looking around and weighing up what is out there.

    David

  359. Let me offer my experience from the hiring side. I posted on this board for a Java Architect position a while back. Needless to say, I was swamped by resumes in a few days. The problem is that most of them are either non-local (job is in Boston area) or need H1 sponsorship (which we won't do at this point). After sorting through a lot of resumes (I do mean a lot), we started to interview qualified candidates. The good news for real good people is that they are still getting snatched up quickly, sometimes in a matter of weeks or even days for very good offers. I guess that's bad news for us who are hiring. :-)
    So you guys out there don't give up.
    A little advice for not so senior guys. Please be realistic about one's expectations and be humble. I know when the market was good, everyone who is out of school for a year or two calls himself senior software engineer (I did that too) and hiring managers/companies could care less about one's working experience as long as one knows how to spell Java, XML, J2EE. Time has changed. Right now senior means at least five years working experience and we are not even phone-screening people who don't meet that criteria.
    Good luck.
    -- Lei
  360. I agree with Lei's points. Senior J2EE developers are being hired these days, and sometimes pretty quickly.

    My company is also looking to hire some senior developers in the Boston area. Please, no out-of-town candidates, and one with less than 5 years work experience.
  361. You can send your resume to busjive2@yahoo.com
  362. whats the scene for ejb/weblogic developers with 3+ exp in java and 1+
     yr in j2ee?????
  363. Requiring a fixed number of years of experience is a quick way to filter people but you also eliminate some really good people as well.
  364. Gene,

    I absolutely concur with your experience.
    In fact we at Kaiser in Oakland are looking for
    a sys admin for WAS 4.0. Position would suit someone
    with unix sys admin experience, WAS installation and tuning.

    Email me at winslowholmes at yahoo dot com

    thx,
    Winslow
  365. Heh, this thread is turning more and more into a job board! I'm not complaining; anything I can do to help out fellow programmers is great. However, I do hope Monster.com is taking note: I'm setting this thread up for acquisition starting at $10/share!

    Gene
  366. Seems like the tides may be turning...

    http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2833534,00.html
  367. I'm interested that no-one has suggested so far that certification might be a way of differentiating yourself from other candidates in the job market. The last time things were slow for me I did Sun Certified Java Programmer from a book. It was harder than I thought it was going to be and I'm not sure what difference it made, if any, to getting the next contract I had. I was more confident though. I now find myself in a similar situation and am considering doing the Developer exam which looks to be an order of magnitude harder.

    I'd be interested to hear of other people's experience with Java Certification, whether the Developer exam was hard and if it has been worth it.

    Thanks

    Warwick
  368. "I'm interested that no-one has suggested so far that certification might be a way of differentiating yourself from other candidates in the job market

    Most people nowadays realize certifcations are ajoke for a number of reasons. How helpful is it to be an mcsd nowadays? Worthless. Those things are a waste of time. They have you memorize a bunch of junk you don't use, and employers don't ask for it anyway. I've never written a program that used awt, but they ask several questions about it on the exam. Why? Yet not a single jdbc question. What a waste.

    "I'd be interested to hear of other people's experience with Java Certification, whether the Developer exam was hard and if it has been worth it. "

    My experience is that employers are looking for one thing; experience and, specifically, experience in the "hot" technologies. the problem is, right now, alot of people have that. Hence, why employers are getting literally hundreds of resume's. So, the rates have fallen - dramatically. Welcome to supply and demand.

    To answer the question about how "hard" the exams are, that's a vague question. Most everyone I know that bought into taking it passed it; not sure of a person that failed it. The developer exam is mostly a project I think. Bottom line, we're not in school anymore, and there's no point in memorizing tons of stuff you'll forget in a week. Good luck.
  369. Certification may be useless a couple of years ago, it may be the only means of getting a foothold into the software industry these days. Nowdays company can no longer afford hiring newbies for their potential and divert resources to their training. This was not the case 2 years ago, when every company was fat with revenue or funding and could hire twenty programmers for one single task. Sure this was wasteful, but at least it introduced newbies to the development process.

    Now, only sr developers are even considered by HR. But one cannot gain experience without working, right? It's a vicious cycle, and I see certification as one possible means of breaking the cycle.

    Gene
  370. I recently with some peers, founded the Charlottesville Java User Group here in Virginia, and one of my driving motivations to do this was to be able to form Study Groups to take some of the certification exams.. I know a lot of certifications are bogus, but I do feel the Sun ones carry some weight.

    And based on what I have heard about the difficulty, they both make you look better, as well as give you some real understanding of the basics of java that often get overlooked in the day to day work of using it!

    Another issue is what kinds of traveling or telecommuting jobs are there out their? My company's parent company went belly up in Chapter 11, and has dragged us down.. Hence I will be soon looking for a job.. I have been doing Microsoft programming, but am looking at this as an opportunity to sign on with a Java oriented company. I would like to get a job where I don't have to relocate, but I haven't found many web sites that make it easy to find traveling/telecommunting jobs. Any pointers or links?

    If you have a job using Java that might be a fit, drop me a line at dep4b at yahoo dot com!

    Just started looking,
    Eric Pugh
  371. "I have been doing Microsoft programming"

    EVIL! EVIL! EVIL!

    Don't ask me for contacts.
  372. Tracy Milburn wrote:

    "...Most people nowadays realize certifcations are ajoke for a number of reasons...Those things are a waste of time. They have you memorize a bunch of junk you don't use, and employers don't ask for it anyway...What a waste...
    "

    I'll bet you any amount of money this guy took the SCJP exam but failed.
  373. william, "I'll bet you any amount of money this guy took the SCJP exam but failed. "

    Lol, as if.
  374. From what I have seen so far, Sun's certification tells me nothing about one's ability. I care about what a person has done in the past, in a real project, ie, his experience. I actually choose not to interview anyone if the only accomplishments one can list are those "bogus" certifications.
    So don't waste your money or energy on these tests.
    -- Lei
  375. Hi All,
       
    I just graduated with a EECS BS degree in 8/01 and I have a hard time to find a full time job which can sponsor me H-1 visa. Most companies thru College recruiting did not hire any CS people in last few sememster. In the outside job market, most companies are looking for senior level Developers and US Citizens.

    I am having a developer job working on J2EE (actually 40hrs/wk but no "company policy" for sponsoring H-1). I have about 1 year J2EE Industrial experience ( I worked part-time before I graduated) and I am Sun Certificated Java Programmer and Sun Certificated Java Web Component Developer (Servlet and JSP). All of these does not help much. I only have one or two e-mail replies from sending hundreds of resumes. And, I have to leave US if I can't find a job by 10/02 and the place (Macao) I am from do not have any software jobs. Time goes really fast. Several months has passed after my graudation.
        
    I would be happy if anyone can contact me about any Java openings. I have worked on EJB, XML, JBoss, MySql, Apache, Tomcat and some other technologies.
    Here is my online resume http://resumes.dice.com/kttang
    My e-mail is kuongtengtang at yahoo dot com

    Thanks and good luck to all of you.

    Ken
  376. "I just graduated with a EECS BS degree in 8/01 and I have a hard time to find a full time job which can sponsor me H-1 visa. Most companies thru College recruiting did not hire any CS people in last few sememster. In the outside job market, most companies are looking for senior level Developers and US Citizens. "

    I may get flamed for voicing my opinion (yeah, that would be the first time), but you're the kind of fat right now that our country needs to trim. I hate to be the one to break that. We have people who were born here and are far better and more experienced than you who have families and have been laid off. Your being here makes it difficult for them to survive.
  377. Hi Tracy,
    Give him a break, okay? Last time I check this is still a free country and he can still compete fairly for his opportunities, right? Of course, there is not a whole lot opportunities for newbies, citizen or no citizen, period.
  378. Fact : 2/3 of "Americans" are fat.

    Possibility : Maybe if Americans "born here" and so called "much better experienced" get laid off - that will help fry some fat.

    Sympathy : I sympathize with you Ken Tang and all others who have been affected by the downturn.

    As for those companies that want Green Card holders or US Citizens only - good for you.

    Cheers to all believe in the Free World!!!!!!!!
  379. Dude, calm down. There is no reason to resort to personal attack here, okay?

    As far as I know, 90% of all Java developers are fat. Does that mean we are all lazy? I think the fat has something to do with sitting in front of computer and working all day!

    I know you are bitter, but please don't take your frustrations out on someone else, especially some of us here are considering to help youl.
    Be cool and something will turn up eventually.
  380. I'm an H-1 and my take on this matter is this:
    we didn't get to choose where we were born. If I had a choice, I would have chosen to be born here and become a US citizen. Birth is something that we completely do not have control of. So it is not my fault that I'm an H-1. What would be my fault, however, is if I don't put up a fight and try to fix this situation. We all have the same dream and ambition but some of us are at a disadvantage because of something that we don't have control of whatsoever.

    To Tracy: I respect your opinion, but let's face it, even the real 'Americans' were once immigrants. They weren't satisfied with their situation and they came to America to fix it. So here I am, trying to fix my situation. And I know that somehow I'll succeed.

  381. We are looking for another senior Java/J2EE architect with at least five years of working experience. US citizen and green card holders only please. And we are not offering relocation and only consider local candidates. The job is in Burlington, MA.

    Send your resume to:
    leigu at yahoo dot com

    -- Lei
  382. Some poor chines newbie wrote: >>> "I just graduated with a EECS BS degree in 8/01 and I have a hard time to find a full time job which can sponsor me H-1 visa. Most companies thru College recruiting did not hire any CS people in last few sememster. In the outside job market, most companies are looking for senior level Developers and US Citizens. " <
    You have my sympathy, but my best advice is for you to go back to Macao or somewhere else (South Africa?) where there is demand for Java programmers right now. I don't know how practical this advice is, but there it is.....

    Tracy repied: >> I may get flamed for voicing my opinion (yeah, that would be the first time), but you're the kind of fat right now that our country needs to trim. I hate to be the one to break that. We have people who were born here and are far better and more experienced than you who have families and have been laid off. Your being here makes it difficult for them to survive. <
    Tracy, give the dude a break. He's breaking his buns like the rest of us. Newbie aspirants for H1B visas is not the cause of the downturn, and sending him back will not solve the problem.

    I don't have a general answer for job market oversupply of Java programmers. I suspect no-one does, except time. Another few months should see an upturn, perhaps a big one once investors decide things are definately going up. All I know (from experience in 2 past recessions) is that when things turn up they do so rapidly. At least for experienced people they do. There is a helluva lot of development work hanging fire out there (there HAS to be, since very little is going now). Once the economy starts growing and employers get out of survival mode and begin thinking about opportunities in an expanding economy again, well all the good experienced folks will get sucked right up in short order!

    Probably not quickly enough for this poor shmoe.

    Most employers don't hire entry-level H1B's in times like these anyway because of the morale factor among their native staff. Even in bad times you really don't need to alienate your staff. Also there can be some communication and cultural problems. Why bother when there are so many citizens and Green Card holders available out there?

    Are there specific solutions to any one person's job search problems? Absolutely. There are always openings, the problem is that there are not openings enough for everyone. Play your hand right and you can fill one of the available openings.

    All you have to do is get lucky once. Even though any one opportunity is only a 5% chance, an energetic, prepared, and creative job searcher can speed up the generation of opportunities and/or the probability of success.

    I highly recommend a trip to the public library to read 'Guerilla Tactics in the New Job Market' or one of it's variants. Author Tom Jackson. In 1982 I was in a market every bit as bad as this one without any experience except school projects. A kindly HR guy gave me a wake-up whack across the nose and turned me on to this book.

    Using the ideas I managed to get a serious interview within two weeks (and a second interview). Almost landed the job over six other people, every one more formally qualified than I was! I did land my first professional job within another 2 months in the worst market I have ever seen.
  383. Smart Marketing and Certification[ Go to top ]

    Tracy Milburn writes:

    >> Most people nowadays realize certifcations are ajoke for a number of reasons. How helpful is it to be an mcsd nowadays? Worthless. Those things are a waste of time. They have you memorize a bunch of junk you don't use, and employers don't ask for it anyway. I've never written a program that used awt, but they ask several questions about it on the exam. Why? Yet not a single jdbc question. What a waste. <
    Hmmmm. While I mostly agree with this, Tracy, I think one has to look at this from the POV of the person considering doing the certification. I wouldn't advocate that a hard core developer do a cert, but a junior or entry guy might have good reason to do this. It shows very little, but it shows SOMETHING. If you had to choose one out of two entry-level folks to interview, everything the same except that one had passed a certification, which one would you chose first? I would talk to the one with the cert.

    For such an entry-level person, the chance of landing a gig without a cert might be 4 or 5% each one they try. With a cert to get one into the door first that may rise to 6 or 7%. Which is worth doing if you do the math. Also, certs can be done very cheaply with books, though the test costs a bit. So swot up with cheap books and make dang sure you pass the first time! If you have the exam fee to spare.

    "I'd be interested to hear of other people's experience with Java Certification, whether the Developer exam was hard and if it has been worth it. "

    >> My experience is that employers are looking for one thing; experience and, specifically, experience in the "hot" technologies. the problem is, right now, alot of people have that. Hence, why employers are getting literally hundreds of resume's. So, the rates have fallen - dramatically. Welcome to supply and demand. <
    Another thing to do is volunteer to work free somewhere. Or do up your own Java-driven website as an advertisment. Put the URL to your site on your resume/CV. I'm not sure whether hosting costs anything. I think one can find free hosting if one looks around. You might even be able to do your volunteer gig working with a free service.

    Volunteering isn't a hard substitute for industry experience. But when you don't have it and can't get it the normal way, you need to look for substitutes. Doing your own java-driven website and taking a cert are ways to improve your chances. They show employers some energy and when one of those rare entry-level or junior-level gigs pops up they may help move you to the head of the list! Another thing that doing a volunteer gig will do is help you build a network of contacts, particularly if you do it with a technically-oriented group like a SUG.

    What think, Tracy? If my esteemed employer kicked my butt tommorow, I would dig back into my bookcase and learn enough to present myself to advantage on my own website.

    I'd probably run it on Apache/Tomcat/Jakarta/JBoss or such and post the source code to boot. If I could get a good free UML tool I'd do a design and post that also. Then I'd link my URL on every CV I sent out, so anyone could have a direct look at my work by following a link.

    Another thing I might look to do is diversify a bit. There is a wonderful series of books from Peachpit Press called HOT (Hand's On Training) which teach Dreamweaver 4, Flash 5, and Photoshop 6 in a pretty good series of lessons. I've done the Dreamweaver 2 title and the others are waiting for me to get time to do them. Why would a Java programmer do this? It could be a huge advantage in landing a JSP or servlet gig, could it not? Particularly for an entry level person. I could easily see an employer looking for someone who could cover two roles.

    Good luck to all of you.
  384. Smart Marketing and Certification[ Go to top ]

    "While I mostly agree with this, Tracy, I think one has to look at this from the POV of the person considering doing the certification. I wouldn't advocate that a hard core developer do a cert, but a junior or entry guy might have good reason to do this. It shows very little, but it shows SOMETHING. If you had to choose one out of two entry-level folks to interview, everything the same except that one had passed a certification, which one would you chose first? I would talk to the one with the cert. "

    I'll give you that, if the guy has NO training at all. But it also costs money and imho is a waste of time unless you just can't find a job any other way. And again, most employers know what's up with those cert's.
  385. Smart Marketing and Certification[ Go to top ]

    Tracy Sez:

    >> I'll give you that, if the guy has NO training at all. But it also costs money and imho is a waste of time unless you just can't find a job any other way. And again, most employers know what's up with those cert's. <
    I agree. What I'd do is take the money I would have spent on the cert (probably a minimum of £125) and spend it on books on things I couldn't learn easily from websurfing and free downloads.

    I think doing up one's own showoff website (further down in that post) is far the stronger marketing approach, because not every Tom, Dick, or Sharon is going to do that.
  386. Smart Marketing and Certification[ Go to top ]

    "I think doing up one's own showoff website (further down in that post) is far the stronger marketing approach, because not every Tom, Dick, or Sharon is going to do that. "

    I agree. I've been wanting to do that anyway,but haven't had the time since I'm (fortunately) working.
  387. Smart Marketing and Certification[ Go to top ]

    Here's another situation where someone "almost" :) had to take that STUPID certification class. Before I came here I was a consulant, and they even know I disagreed with those philosophically. They were STILl going to force me to take it because "it looked good to clients." #1: it doesn't. #2: that company sucked, and #3: MAN am I glad I don't work for them anymore!
  388. "Tracy, give the dude a break. He's breaking his buns like the rest of us. Newbie aspirants for H1B visas is not the cause of the downturn, and sending him back will not solve the problem. "

    I'll use George from Seinfeld's reply when told that saying he loved another guy doesn't mean he's a homo:

    "It doesn't help."
  389. Tracy says about the poor clueless chinese dude:

    >> I'll use George from Seinfeld's reply when told that saying he loved another guy doesn't mean he's a homo:

    "It doesn't help." <
    Sorry, I can't agree. Indian and Chinese H1B engineers have been tremendous assets for the US software industry. Just look at the employment roster at Sun or any of the big web companies. Lots of Chinese and Desi's......

    This guy just had bad timing. Maybe he thinks the world owes him something because things haven't worked out to his expectations. He would scarcely be the first to do that. Lot's of Yankee Java hackers think the same thing.... Eh?
  390. It's time for me to reply.
    Maybe some of u don't remember how US gets stronger and stronger. US absorbs talented ppl from all other countries. There are talented ppl in US and there are talented ppl from oversea. It's a really fair competition. If u say ppl from oversea is "fat", it must be some kind of discriminations.

    My purpose to post my first message here is not trying to get anyone's sympathy. Thanks to those of u anyways. Honestly, I just want to increase my chance to get a job. I understnad that economy is bad and I am just trying my best under this situation. I don't think the world owns me anything and I do not blame anyone. I just do my best to survive in US.

    I hope my belief is right--Everyone has right to compete if here is really "United State of America".

    I won't post msg here anymore.
    Good luck to all of you, anyways.

    Ken
  391. Ken Tang writes:

    "Maybe some of u don't remember how US gets stronger and stronger. US absorbs talented ppl from all other countries. There are talented ppl in US and there are talented ppl from oversea. It's a really fair competition."

    I agree with most of this, as I wrote before. The problem is in bad economic times, when some of us lose our jobs and get angry about it. And sometimes it is not a 'fair competition', sorry to say. I've seen the H1B visas abused once or twice. In one case Lucent dumped 7 US-based System Administrators (citizens and Green Card guys) to replace them with imported people from India at half the price.

    "If u say ppl from oversea is "fat", it must be some kind of discriminations."

    I'm not sure where this came from. Hell, I'm fat!

    "My purpose to post my first message here is not trying to get anyone's sympathy. Thanks to those of u anyways. Honestly, I just want to increase my chance to get a job. I understnad that economy is bad and I am just trying my best under this situation. I don't think the world owns me anything and I do not blame anyone. I just do my best to survive in US."

    Yes, I can see that. I was in a similar position when I was starting out. In a recession worse than this one is! The big difference is that you will have to leave at some point and I did not (because I am a citizen). I'm sorry for you for that reason. With a little more luck you would not be facing this situation.

    "I hope my belief is right--Everyone has right to compete if here is really "United State of America"."

    Well..... It's a hard business. Many of us have invested a huge amount of time and money in our skill base, and it comes very hard to see US corporations abusing the H1B laws to get cheaper labor. In my opinion H1B is meant for people like yourself who seem to want to settle permanently in the US and perhaps become a citizen.

    I am in a similar position as a US citizen working in the UK right now. I am on a work permit tied to my employer. I cannot move jobs without another work permit, which is difficult to secure. And I have no 'right to compete' by UK law.

    I will point out that the H1B program is not a right for anyone. It depends on a shared interest which does not exist right now because there is currently no shortage of citizens and permanent residents who share your skill base. It may not be fair to you, but the recession isn't 'fair' to any of us, including all of us who are out of work.

    "I won't post msg here anymore. "

    Don't give up. Go ahead and post. As long as you don't violate the rules of this forum (you haven't) posting is your 'right'.
  392. "In one case Lucent dumped 7 US-based System Administrators (citizens and Green Card guys) to replace them with imported people from India at half the price. "

    Yeah, I can't believe shit like that is even legal in this country. Or outsourcing huge quantities of "prime u.s. IT jobs" to India or Manilla. I don't understand why politicans don't realize that's killing our country. Who's going to buy houses and cars if all the IT people have been laid off for cheaper labor in another country???
  393. "Yeah, I can't believe shit like that is even legal in this country. Or outsourcing huge quantities of "prime u.s. IT jobs" to India or Manilla. I don't understand why politicans don't realize that's killing our country. Who's going to buy houses and cars if all the IT people have been laid off for cheaper labor in another country??? "

    It's called globalization, Tracy. We don't have a patent on the technology and rightly so. Outsourcing to India was a far scarier issue 10 years ago than it is today. Ed Yourdon (the design guru) wrote an entire book about it 'Decline and fall of the American Programmer'. In 1991 the average salary of an Indian programmer was something like 4K versus 40K for a US programmer. The last I heard the average salary of an Indian programmer is now closer to 25K versus maybe 50-60K in the US.

    Supply & demand is working. There are disadvantages to outsourcing which is why it didn't catch on in a big way during the 90's. I don't mind having to compete for my job with an Indian guy (I figure I can be twice as productive if I push it). But competing with someone making 10% of what I do is harder.

    What the Indian job-shops were doing was hiring the Indian guys at 4K and sending them over here on expenses. Since they didn't have to really pay them, they could undercut their US counterparts by half even after the expenses. After all, it's cheaper to stack people 2 to a bed in long-term stay hotels than to pay them enough to support a house, car, kids, etc......

    Conversely, the green-carders and most H1B people are getting an approximation of a normal US salary. So they're not really competing on price. I have much less of a problem with that!

  394. "Conversely, the green-carders and most H1B people are getting an approximation of a normal US salary. So they're not really competing on price. I have much less of a problem with that! "

    Oh, I do too, definitely. I much less have a problem with h1-b than I do farming out programming to sweatshops in third world countries like manilla, which is what the company I'm working for now is starting to do. All I have to say is, that kind of short-term save-a-buck mentality could easily kill this economy. That's what happened to the us factory workers; you used to be able to get a decent job in a factory, now they're all overseas. Then we wonder what's happening to the middle class, and why the rich keep getting richer while the poor get poorer. Yeah, it's supply and demand at work. It reminds me of a quote from the movie Platoon:

    "The poor are always getting f'd over by the rich; always have been, always will be."

    That's why we need laws against horrible stuff like that.
  395. "That's what happened to the us factory workers; you used to be able to get a decent job in a factory, now they're all overseas. "

    Actually this isn't true now. It never was entirely true. In fact there have been cases where manufacturers brought manufacturing back to the US (for cost reasons) from overseas where they had sent it.

    The hit on the number of factory workers has been a result of (as predicted in the 60's) factory automation. Also the growth of demand for service workers, like you and I. Our fathers and uncles were manual or skilled factory workers, but we work in services.

    Factory workers are FAR more productive than they were in days of yore. I daresay that auto workers turn out more than 3X the number of cars per person than 30 years ago. Better quality so they last longer, too. Sales have not gone up 300%, so there are fewer auto workers needed. Manhy fewer. Labor costs have shrunk as a proportion of total costs from close to 30% down to less than 15%. So the cost of wages (though not the UNIT COST of labor) is much less of a factor than was. New methods of steelmaking (and other materials industries) have improved labor productivity more than 10-fold, and US minimills have been at the forefront of that movement. Fewer steelworkers.

    Believe it or not, fixed costs in the US are some of the lowest in the world. I've seen tables in the Economist magazine showing office and factory space costs in places like Jakarta, Bangckck, Bombay, and Hong Kong ranging from $15-30 per sqare foot, with costs in the US running between $2 and $4 per square foot. US labor, whilst more expensive, is competitive with anyone in unit cost (though the high exchange rate of the dollar recently has impacted that.

    In cost the US was middling in one survey I saw (rated a 5-6 on a scale of 1-10), but quality was 8 (just behind the Germans and Swiss, who were at 9). But German and Swiss labor cost much more than US labor (8 and 9 respectively as I recall). The Japanese rated surprisingly low overall because of the vast split in the Japanese economy between the world-class exporting industries we are familiar with (Toyota, Matsushita, Sony) and the vastly inefficient and protected non-exporting sectors.

    US labor is relatively well-trained, and turnover is relatively low.

    The US has lost 'factory share' in low-cost commodity 'easy entry' industries with low capital and knowledge requirements. Textiles are a classic example, as is glassmaking and some others. Carmaking is following it's markets overseas as those markets expand. My impression is that the overall SHARE of auto parts made and sold in the US is much the same as it ever was.

    For this reason the US usually comes top in any productivity rankings done, or in the top three in any survey I have seen in recent years.
  396. I would like to see in the different perspective. If a company has a capital of 100K they want to develop some software and they want to sell inside US, they can't do with the budget what they have allocated they have to go for some other place to get it done, they are acheiving through outsourcing. The US company which earns millions of dollors here are not shared with outsoucing company. All the millions of dollors are in US and US is becoming rich. In the recession period most of the companies are looking for survival if they want to run the company and pay the salaries for 1000 employies thay have they have to find some solution where thay can pay less money to run the software and to pay salary for 1000 employies instead of closing down the company and lay off 1000 employees. 1 person out of job is better than 1000 people out of job.
  397. "The US company which earns millions of dollors here are not shared with outsoucing company. All the millions of dollors are in US and US is becoming rich. "

    You're missing the entire point. Yes, the profit stays in the us, and makes a few rich people more wealthy than they already were, while thousands loose their jobs and the money they would have earned (and spent in the us) are now being spent in thailand or something. That REALLY sucks. WHo's going to buy the expensive products that these companies are making if no one works for anyone anymore, and only a few guys rake in all the profits?

    This is why the richer continue to get richer as the capital and wealth gap continues to grow in this country, and why totally free capitalism doesn't work, and was proven not to work in the early days in the us where you had 13 year olds working 16 hour days. If people running companies "can" do that stuff legally, they WILL, and they DID. No, there need to be laws against that kind of stuff, and I say if your company is based in the us you can't farm out IT jobs to other countries!!!!!!!!!
  398. "If people running companies "can" do that stuff legally, they WILL, and they DID. No, there need to be laws against that kind of stuff, and I say if your company is based in the us you can't farm out IT jobs to other countries!!!!!!!!!"

    While I have seen it happen, it is a rare exception rather than the rule. There is less of a temptation today (because wage differences are lower) than it was a decade ago.

    Outsourcing is one thing which causes people to go into panic attacks because it seems to be so simple and make so much sense to do. But labor costs are only one shrinking factor in overall costs. The management and infrastructural costs of outsourcing most IT work far outweigh the supposed cost savings. This is why very little IT work went to outsourcers over the past decade despite the apparently compelling cost savings.

    Congress should keep their mitts off of this. A cut in the yearly quota of H1B visas may make sense. Or it may not. I'm letting the economists argue that one!

    I am against making a law against bad management, which is what this kind of proposal amounts to. Legislating against exceptional circumstances usually makes for bad law and bad social policy. If anything we ought to loosen up regulation rather than tighten it.
  399. "I am against making a law against bad management, which is what this kind of proposal amounts to. Legislating against exceptional circumstances usually makes for bad law and bad social policy. If anything we ought to loosen up regulation rather than tighten it. "

    Damned republican. ;0
  400. "If u say ppl from oversea is "fat", it must be some kind of discriminations. "

    I was expecting that was next right about... now.
  401. Ken wrote <...
    I hope my belief is right--Everyone has right to compete if here is really "United State of America".

    I won't post msg here anymore.
    Good luck to all of you, anyways. >>

    Ken, greetings from Toronto, Canada!!
    Dude, don't let those hypocritical Yanks, whose government is very GOOD at de-stabilizing developing and 3rd world governments (FOR THEIR CHEAP LABOUR AND RESOURCES), get to you! If it were not for TALENTED (perhaps SUPERIOR?), FOREIGN labour (India, China, Russia, Eastern Europe, etc.) and those INS visas, the US would not have such a huge lead on the rest of the world from an Information Technology perspective --especially the dot-com boom. Heck, HotMail and Google were founded by non-American (India) developer/entrepreneurs...and countless other IT success stories.
    Look at it this way! Canadians are way more educated and have way better social/government infrastructures than the US (especially without all of its RACISM), but our phucking dollar sucks compared to theirs! Why so? I smell a rat...and look at Nortel's downfall due to their DOMINANCE in the Telecom arena that their US competitors could NOT swallow.
    My point? You don't have anything to feel sorry for! The US uses YOUR country more than you will ever know! Heck, they can't even appologize for SLAVERY, which is responsible for them having such a huge lead on the world at the turn of the 19th Century! Can you say FREE unpaid LABOUR in the Trillions??

    Cheers!

    Romulus.
    =============
  402. << THE ENRON WHOPPERS
         Over the last ten years, Enron Corp., its employees and their spouses, gave almost $6 million to federal parties and candidates, slightly more than half of that in soft money and the rest in hard money. They got plenty for their cash: the ability to create a whole new unregulated business in energy derivatives, extensive input in the writing of the Bush Administration’s energy legislation, veto power over regulatory appointees, a lucrative delay in government intervention in California’s energy crisis, top level calls from Bush and Clinton officials lobbying the Indian government to protect a multi-billion-dollar Enron investment. Senator Phil Gramm, the company’s number two recipient of funds in the Senate, carved out specific loopholes in legislation for it, while his wife Wendy took care of the company's interests as head of the Commodity Futures Training Commission and then got a plumb sinecure as an Enron director.
         Arthur Andersen, Enron’s accounting firm, gave another $5 million. This money worked to great effect when the time came to block SEC efforts to clamp down on the burgeoning and lucrative practice of selling consulting services to companies at the same time as auditing their books. Had the SEC rule gone into effect, Enron’s worst financial abuses might have been nipped in the bud. Instead, Andersen accountants permitted Enron to overstate its profits by at least $580 million. Arthur Andersen made $27 million in consulting fees from Enron in the last year alone.
         Now, investors in Enron stock, including thousands of company employees and pensioners, are out some $60 billion in share value. Energy consumers out West were gouged for billions more. A host of Enron top executives, many of them big contributors to President Bush’s 2000 campaign, cashed in their stock to the tune of $1.1 billion, while ordinary employees saw their 401k accounts disappear into dust.
         And yet, there are many prominent Americans who say Enron and Arthur Andersen’s campaign contributions didn’t buy them anything. “No help here,” says the President of his administration. “It’s silliness,” says a Republican congressman as the House debated campaign finance reform. These people are whistling past the graveyard, as polls show that six out of ten Americans think that both the Bush and Clinton Administration’s did favors for Enron in return for campaign contributions.
         But that hasn’t stopped the Enron apologists from blowing smoke at us. As a public service, we present the Enron Hall of Shame. The following are the top ten Enron Whoppers. To read the complete list, go to http://www.howdarethey.org/whoppers.htm.

    President George W. Bush: “…you know, Enron had made contributions to a lot of people around Washington, D.C. And if they came to this administration looking for help, they didn't find any."

    Vice President Dick Cheney: "The issue here isn't, with respect to Enron, isn't what advice they may have offered the energy task force. The issue, with respect to Enron, is the corporate collapse.”

    White House spokesman Ari Fleischer: [Re calls Vice President Cheney made to Indian government officials on behalf of Enron] “I don't think you could say that they were influenced by the contributions that were given to the Bush campaign.”

    Commerce Secretary Donald Evans (former chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign): “All through the campaign, when I talked to people about making contributions, I said, “For this contribution, you’re going to get good government, you’re going to get a president that has a great mind, a big heart and an extraordinary leader and this whole world can trust. And if you’re looking for anything else, you got the wrong candidate.

    Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY): “This whole argument that influence is for sale is utter nonsense. What did Enron get? They got nothing, nothing whatsoever, except investigations, criminal prosecutions, subpoenas. They've gotten nothing but problems. Their contributions got them nothing.”

    Rep. John Linder (R-Ga.): "It's silliness. If there's any evidence, bring it forth. And if there isn't, then don't keep implying that there might be.”

    Rep. David Dreier (R-CA): “Those who will try to draw a correlation between the bankruptcy of Enron and the political process—obviously there is no correlation.”

    GOP national chair Marc Racicot: “I have not seen any evidence of any public official -- whether Democrat or Republican -- that reflects something that could be classified as wrongdoing. So even though there certainly have been campaign contributions received by people on both sides of the aisle, there does not appear to be any wrongdoing as a result of the participation of Enron in the political affairs of this nation.”

    DNC national chair Terry MacAuliffe: [after being asked about favors Clinton Administration officials did on behalf of Enron, followed by the receipt of campaign contributions] “I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it. I haven’t said there’s anything wrong with what the Bush White House has done…. Our only point is we want disclosure.”

    Weekly Standard executive editor Fred Barnes: “The bigger the contribution, the more favors the donor gets: That's the argument. Enron proves the opposite….Their election donations bought them nothing.”
    --------------------------------->$$$$$<------------------------------------
    OUCH! is a regular e-mail bulletin on how private money in politics hurts average citizens, published by Public Campaign, a non-partisan, non-profit organization devoted to comprehensive campaign finance reform. Every day, we pay more as consumers and taxpayers for special interest subsidies and boondoggles because of our system of privately financed elections. It's time for a change.

    Want to take action? Go to HowDareThey.org to send an instant message to your representatives in Congress. And help spread the word! Send copies of this message to your friends and join the growing movement for real campaign finance reform. If you would like to add yourself to the OUCH! listserv, send an e-mail reading ‘subscribe’ to ouch-request at ouch dot org or go to http://www.ouch.org/mailman/listinfo/ouch.

    Want more info about Public Campaign? Visit www.publicampaign.org or write to info at publicampaign dot org. You can also help support our work by making a credit card contribution on our website. This bulletin may be reposted to newsgroups as long as it is printed in its entirety. >>

    ...So, please Yanks, don't BLAME foreigners for your god damn domestic problems!! Your ELECTED politicians made this messy (and countless others) job crunch scenario, so point your fingers elsewhere!!!

    Romulus
    ========
  403. Romulus,

    You must have a lot of time on your hands.
  404. You should talk Tracy, you baby. Oh, WAAAA.... honey, I can't buy you a birthday present this year cuz all the immigrants took my jobs. OH waaaaaaa.... Hey Tracy, stop yer bitchin and get a job you whiner.
  405. << Romulus,
    You must have a lot of time on your hands. >>

    This is your reply to the forwarded article on Political Corruption at HowDareThey.com ( http://www.HowDareThey.com )??? Are you an idiot or a blind, spineless American VOTER???
    And what of any arguments to NEGATE my FACTS about your government de-stabalizing governments and institutions in the developing world for the sole purpose of exploiting workers and cheap natural resources for its FAT, LAZY, POLLUTIONIST citizens?? Not only are you blind and NAIVE, you are as stupid as stupid gets!!
    And I am a "J2EE-ASP-Delphi/Kylix-Java-.NET" developer/consultant who knows when to take time out to make a point in certain forums when warranted. Is that good enough for you? :-)
    Instead of focusing on me, why NOT look at your fate as a direct result of corrupt DEMOCRATIC practices in your backyard which, incidentally, is supposed to be the FREEist nation on earth? Now that's an oxymoron with all the smoke screens that your shyster politicians spray right into your very eyes on a daily basis. The rest of the world laughs at the stupidity of your government and its BIASED (er hypocritial) policies.

    Cheers all!

    Romulus
    ==========
  406. Hey Romulus, you make a very logical argument. Don't let this Tracy guy get your goat. He is very stupid. In Tracy's world everybody except him is to blame.

    Notice how Tracy is not writing here anymore? That's because smarter and more logical people have finally flicked him away like an annoying fly that buzzes too much.

    Tracy is a racist, gun-toting, redneck Texan. Thankfuly, this is not what the northern Americans are like, only the southern americans. Remember, the south is where all the violence and hatred is. Tracy just represents that part of the world, that's all.
  407. Romulus,

    I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about - I couldn't understand a single ord you said.
  408. Romulus & Tracy,

       Tracy very frequently uses the phrase "I don't understand a word you're saying... " as a soft offensive to the author of words that completely destroy his arguments. He realizes that by using this phrase, two camps will form. One camp will be people just like him, who instead of fighting someone more intelligent choose to use humor in order to get a laugh from all the other hicks on this message board and then hopefully the pain of losing the argument is forgotten. The second camp will be people who support Romulus, and who actually have the insight and intelligence to understand him, and these people will consider Tracy's stupidity to be even more obvious and then lose the remaining granule of respect that they have for him.
       Here Tracy, let me put Romulus' argument in a way that you will undoubtedly understand:

      "That there ENRON thang gonna tear dis country apart, I says!! Yessiree, bob! Them tight suits up in them nice office suits sho' know how to screw us innocent citizens down below, hyuk! But, dayam, if it ain't them em-i-grants comin' inta Tex-us that be doin' du re-e-e-el hurtin, I tell ya! It's dem em-i-grants dat's du re-e-e-el prawb-lum. Hyuk! Hey Cletus!!! Where's muh rez-oo-may? Time fo' me to head awn ovuh tu Wahl-mart over there yonder.... "

       I'll bet you get the gist of it now Tracy.
  409. OKay...I got it now![ Go to top ]

    Chief,
    Thanks for providing me with a quick Analysis of Tracy's PROBLEMs. :-)
    I'm too smart to waste my time on infidels like him -- and I did see through his game! I just wanted to see how quickly he'd hang himself.
    =============

    So...let's move back to TECHNICAL/IT JOB issues!!!

    I still think J2EE is the way to go, especially with the new Java Connector APIs for accessing legacy and/or ERP systems. I'd have more respect for Microsoft if they'd port IE and their other "wonderful" products on platforms like Linux, FreeBSD, Apple (where r the Mac development tools? Where is .NET for OS/X? etc.). Can you immagine running SQL Server-2000 on a dual 64 bit NetBSD Alpha Server?? What about .NET Server?? This is what pisses me off about M$.
    Mind you, Sun is not scoring any points with me either by being too chicken shyt to release a JSDK for the BSDs. Look how long it took them (reluctantly) to do a Linux port??
    I just hope all YOU developers realize how much these big corporations use and manipulate you with their offerings. We have to know when to say "No!!!" sometimes.
  410. {{Look how long it took them (reluctantly) to do a Linux port?? }}

    I wouldn't give much credence to Sun's claims of Linux support. They've said it before and it fizzled. They have a habit of promoting things and later not following up with it. This has eroded Sun's customer base's loyalty. As for MS cooperating with consumers' wishes, as Bill Gates says in an episode of The Simpsons "I did not get rich by writing cheques (mwahahahaha)" (maniacal malevolent laughter).

  411. <
    Well, look at the big mistake they're about to make with JBoss!! I know it can't be Bill Joy or the other techies at Sun making these decisions. McNealey and his lawyers are very stupid and do not see the BIG picture. If M$ does port .NET to FreeBSD (as I've heard), it might create an interesting battlefield. That would then FORCE Sun to port Java/J2EE there as well. I predict this very soon!
    Thank god IBM, Oracle, WebGain, Borland, and the others are there to watch Sun's un-protected back! :-)
  412. I mean consider Gene Chuang, he is probably the descendent of oriental parents, but he can work in our system based on his merits. That is the strength of our economy (relative to that of the rest of the world). This economy has thrived on the service of the cream of the world. Go to any US college and sit in a EE or CS class. I'd bet my life savings that you'll see many more faces that are foreign-looking than caucasian. Then you complain that they are the fat that need to be trimmed. In general the vast majority of the caucasian population fits into middle status jobs. While we refuse to clean dishes in restaurants and construct buildings (letting the hapless Mexicans risk their lives on it), the normal average Joe cannot do anything more than Napster downloads when it comes to IT work. If all foreigners in the IT sector were sent home packing, the Tracy Milburns of the country shan't be able to keep the IT industry flowing, not with that aggressive Jerry-Springer-guest attitude at least.

    As for the hapless chap who might have to go back to Macao, then I have an advice for you that many foreign students in your situation have resorted to; go for your Masters. Then when you get out, the economy will have bounced back, and the Tracy Milburns will have stopped fuming, and you just might snatch a job. My four cents.

    By the way, getting back to the spirit of the helping each other out. Anyone know how java programmer cum Oracle DBA's are faring in the south central zone from a recruiter's perspective as well as a job seeker's ... ?
  413. " Go to any US college and sit in a EE or CS class. I'd bet my life savings that you'll see many more faces that are foreign-looking than caucasian. Then you complain that they are the fat that need to be trimmed. "

    Again, you'r lying, I never said that.
  414. "If all foreigners in the IT sector were sent home packing, the Tracy Milburns of the country shan't be able to keep the IT industry flowing, not with that aggressive Jerry-Springer-guest attitude at least. "

    Wow, it's really interesting that you're insulting my capabilities; lol, you have no IDEA what you're talking about! Too bad I wouldn't let you get close to any of my colleagues, or you'd find out about my reputation and how silly you sound. Also, regarding your insulting me, it's too bad we can't meet and have you say those lovely things to my face!
  415. Wow, it's really interesting that you're insulting my

    > capabilities; lol,
    In fact, so far I have not insulted your capability, rather your brazen attitude. You took unsolicited shots at quite a few people on this thread before I took mine on you. Oh, and now, I am insulting your capability to read and comprehend, because I had not insulted your capability before, but you could not 'read and comprehend' that. Who knows what capability you have ? But everyone know the attitude prob.

    >you have no IDEA what you're talking about! Too bad I
    > wouldn't let you get close to any of my colleagues,
    How professional. You seem to think that qualifications matters when it comes to impressing colleagues, rather it's all about how you interact, and you've illustrated that very finely on this post. If you need a refresher, go read your messages on this thread again from the beginning.

    > or you'd find out about my reputation and how silly you >sound.
    At least you score points on humbleness.

    >Also, regarding your insulting me, it's too bad we can't >meet and have you say those lovely things to my

    face!

    Oooh, a not-so-veiled threat. I'm so scared of your 6'6" 280 lbs frame and hick accent and those cowboy hat, boots and spurs. If anyone has insulted anyone, it is you, who has insulted a plethora of users on this post with words like "moron" and whatever else is in your trailer trash dictionary. This is my last post regarding entertaining the peurile rants of Tracy Milburn.

  416. "This is my last post regarding entertaining the peurile rants of Tracy Milburn. "

    Thank goodness! c-ya
  417. Hi all,
    I am from Calcutta, India and worked in Java/EJB/Visual Age/WebSphere/JSP/Servlet etc. in last 3+ years, as Software Programmer/Analyst. Just a few months back, I returned from Singapore after completion of that project. Then, sensing current slowdown may continue longer, I decided to add some management experience into my career and so I joined as System Manager in a Govt. organisation. My plan is to switch over to software project when IT market will be good.
    Can anybody inform me, about opening for me, in Singapore/US (my H1B is approved last year)/UK ? Please mail me at abhijitsaha2000 at hotmail dot com. And here is my online resume http://resumes.dice.com/abhijitsaha2000. Thanks to all.
  418. Tracy, a cursory glance of your posts across TSS suggests you are in your teens or early twenties. You may have a technologically brilliant mind, but the tone of your posts expose your social immaturity. If you like to contribute positively to TSS, please refrain from personal attacks and keep to the topic at hand: Java technology. Otherwise, there are many other newsgroups out there that caters to you, such as fuckedcompany.com or slashdot.org.

  419. "Tracy, a cursory glance of your posts across TSS suggests you are in your teens or early twenties. "

    Gene,

    a cursory glance of your posts across TSS suggest that you are a complete and total nerd.

    And you're wrong about my age.

    And, your post was completely unprovoked, and uncalled for.
  420. {Gene,
    a cursory glance of your posts across TSS suggest that you are a complete and total nerd.}
    Being a total nerd can be a positive thing. Being a social outcast/pariah who does not know how to communicate with others is negative.

    {And you're wrong about my age.}
    Gene, I concur that the said individual acts like a teenage spoilt version of the Dell surfer dude. IMHO, it is not worth dilly dallying with her/him, nor has she/he said anything that warrants us conceding a 'technologically brilliant' mind. People with technologically brilliant minds do not act childish, nor do they work for little electric supply companies and be proud of it.

    Anyway, Gene, what kind of java consulting services does your company provide ? What is the size of the company ?

  421. Alright, enough of this bantering. This is after all MY thread! :-)

    Tracy, the retributions you received were far from being unprovoked. I wrote the original article with the hopes of helping out everyone regardless of nationality or ethnicity. I could not stand around and watch you insult foreigners. But you are entitled to your opinions, as long as you defend them justly and intelligently. That being said, I extend an olive branch in hopes of ending this. I apologize to Tracy for any brash statements I may have made; let's move on!

    Tim, my company, overture.com, was formerly goto.com. It is the only Idealab company (Bill Gross's incubator, commonly flamed on fuckedcompany.com) to have gone public, achieve profitability, and show potential for more growth. In a nutshell, we are a search engine that provides bid-based-listing order. If you are an advertiser and want to show up in our search engine, you just have to offer the highest bid-per-click of all the competitors. Like everyone else I was skeptical at first with this idea, but the market has shown this is the most effective and efficient way to determine search-result order. And other companies concur: Yahoo, AOL, MSN, Lycos, Alta Vista and HotBot are all using our engine. And Google, our biggest competitor, is starting to immitate our business model.

    Our architecture is a hybridization of EBay and Google. On the search-result-serving side, we use simple perl engine that pumps out XML results in large and rapid quantities to our affiliates. On the advertiser side, we need to provide a bid engine and an browser client to access and modify bid and listing info. This side is done in J2EE. What makes things more interesting is how these two sides need to cooperate and work together: real-time bids will affect search listing order, which immediate takes effect dynamically in our search database. Needless to say, this combination of speed and throughput vs. real-time-modification is not trivial!

    Our company stock (OVER) was the 5th highest performer on NASDAQ in 2001, and also because of our profitability and international expansion (UK, Germany, and soon Japan), our company is growing in the face of recession. When I was hired 3 months ago we had 480 people. Today we have 560, and are still hiring. Go to monster.com and search for "Overture" to find our available job listing.
  422. "That being said, I extend an olive branch in hopes of ending this. I apologize to Tracy for any brash statements I may have made; let's move on! "

    Agreed, sounds good.
  423. HI! I'm Rajib Das from Calcutta, India.

    I'm a Senior Software developer with 3 Years of experience in designing Object Oriented/Enterprise Systems using CORBA, EJB with Weblogic , Servlets and XML. I am a Sun Certified Programmer and also IBM certified in XML and related Technologies.
    Is anybody looking for people with my profile , pls let me know (contactrajib at yahoo dot com ). My H1B got approved last year.
  424. What kinds of practices are in place at Overture to validate the performance attributes of deployed infrastructures - networks, applications, services, messaging, etc.?

    At Charles Schwab, my team was using discrete-event simulation modeling (using Opnet Technology solutions) to validate capacity/performance characteristics in the design and development phases of the product lifecycle. I was making extensive use of fractal/self-similar traffic strategies and other non-deterministic distributions (Weibull and Paretto) to characterize the non-linear nature of Java and database connection pooling and access.

    Is Overture using these kinds of approaches? Let me know if you want to discuss how they can be efficiently deployed in your own architectural practice.

    That's for any and all reading the thread. I am commited to seeing frameworks built in such manner as to be optimized in their implementation, in terms of end-to-end application responsiveness.
  425. Hi Bruce,

    Shoot me an email; I'd be glad to chat performance analysis with you privately, since it's outside the scope of this thread..

    gchuang@overture.com
  426. Gene,


    a cursory glance of your posts across TSS suggest that you are a complete and total nerd. <
    Tracy, let me clue ya into something.

    We're ALL nerds! ;-)

    What you folks fail to understand is that you are 'codependent' as the crypto-pyschological types would say. Tracy gets his (her?) fun by pulling your chain and you get a lot of satisfaction putting him down in return. This place wouldn't be HALF as entertaining without the byplay.....
  427. "Tracy gets his (her?) fun by pulling your chain and you get a lot of satisfaction putting him down in return. This place wouldn't be HALF as entertaining without the byplay..... "

    Hey, wait a second here; I don't really see what I've said that was so brash as to get these comments. True, I'm passionate about java as a platform, but am not sure why gene and that other guy are getting this attitude from. And the ONLY reason I called him a nerd was because he just out of the blue jumped on me, totally unprovoked.
  428. Tim Brandon (aka Tracy-basher) writes:

    >> People with technologically brilliant minds do not act childish, <
    Well....... I've seen a couple here and there. Anyway, I don't find Tracy terribly childish, or at least not to much more childish than you and Gene, or myself for that matter! He IS provocative, and dead wrong on immigration issues. He also doesn't use too much discretion about expressing his opinion. But judging by recent posts, neither have you or Gene!

    >> nor do they work for little electric supply companies and be proud of it. <
    Now THAT was petty and rather uncalled for! Is there some kind of pecking order here? I've worked for a range of organizations from software houses to little companies to presitigeous consultantcies and the quality of my output or the value of my knowledge did not change based on the prestige of my employer. Indeed my current employer regards itself very highly (rather too well IMHO), but there are PLENTY of fakers wandering the halls even now.....

    Including myself? Sometimes I suspect..... ;-)

  429. "Well....... I've seen a couple here and there. Anyway, I don't find Tracy terribly childish, or at least not to much more childish than you and Gene, or myself for that matter! He IS provocative, and dead wrong on immigration issues. He also doesn't use too much discretion about expressing his opinion. But judging by recent posts, neither have you or Gene! "

    I agree. I kind of sense a bandwagon forming more so than it really being me. But that's ok, it'll die.

    And regarding the employer thing, yes, it was uncalled for, but it certainly didn't bother me, I don't work for a small place right now, although I have in the past, and small/big both have their +/-.

    cya
  430. BTW, admittedly I am opinionated, and very passionate about Java. I usually go overboard when a M$ guy gets on here, and will probably continue to. I argue with m$ guys to their face. ANd the most bigoted of Java people I've seen are about 1/2 as bad as the least bigoted m$ guy I've met.
  431. Don,
    A great advice. I think what we lack today truly sage advice. People who have seen the rough and tumble in the past. And came out through it.. Experience ( life experience, not necessarily proffessional) and definitely age are highly underrated. I will take up on your word and read the book that you have suggested..
    I am on a H1 myself and employed so far but in these un-certain times who can tell..? What I would like to know Don, is how you have coped in the situations like these in the past downturns? And how are you doing it now..?
    Cheers,
    -Parag
  432. I am on a H1 myself and employed so far but in these un-certain times who can tell..? <

    Parag, I would try to keep my spirits up and HANG on to that JOB! I'm in a similar position right now working for an UK employer on a job-linked position.

    >> What I would like to know Don, is how you have coped in the situations like these in the past downturns? And how are you doing it now..? <
    Hanging on 'by the skin of my teeth'. Ever hear that old Bee-Gees sone 'Stayin Alive'? That about says it. I'm working on expanding and deepening my skill base as quickly as I can do. Can't hurt, might help. Both in staying on here and in the job market if I don't make it.

    I work for a big-5 consultantcy which is in hard times. What I'm trying to do is make them say 'We can't drop him because he's the only one who knows X ......

    The payoff on the skills investment comes with the turnup in the job market. Which will come in the next year I think. That's ambigous I know. It means I'd be surprised to see a major rise in February but expect to see the signs of an upturn by December.

    I suppose my message is one of hope. Cut down on your expenditures and spend more time learning. Make certain your management knows the value of your contributions. And hunker down and wait for the dawn. When it comes there will be an almighty scramble to get development projects staffed and running double-quick, because the recession doesn't affect demand for new software, merely funding. The companies are in survival mode, so they aren't doing new things. Yet.

  433. Just got out of a meeting this morning where two people talked about a recent trip to manilla. They said the people there worked 12-14 hour days. In America, this would be illegal, yet by doing business with them we're condoning it by affiliation. I guess it's ok that they work like that.

    I also found out the average developer in manilla makes $10k/year.

    I also had a friend of mine who works at cisco tell me that cisco is still layoff off, but are re-hiring h1-b people. He said he overheard an h1-b person say "It's a good thing they're laying off Americans because it's hard to find h1-b work right now." Ya, that sounds like someone who believes in this country and wants to become a citizen of it.

    How disgusting.
  434. Tracy Milburn writes:
    >> They said the people there worked 12-14 hour days. In America, this would be illegal, yet by doing business with them we're condoning it by affiliation. I guess it's ok that they work like that. <
    If working 12-14 hours a day is illegal in the US, there are a helluva lot of lawbreakers. Including most of the people posing here I daresay. Certainly I have done 12 hours a day, sometimes for months at a stretch!

    >> I also found out the average developer in manilla makes $10k/year. <
    What data do you base that on? Hearsay?

    >> I also had a friend of mine who works at cisco tell me that cisco is still layoff off, but are re-hiring h1-b people. <
    I'm relatively close to Cisco (I work for a Cisco Partner), and here is the deal. Cisco continually dumps people even in the best of times. It's based on the annual review. The bottom 5 or 10% get dumped. I'm certain they are hiring also, and some of those will be on H1B status. Cause and effect?

    Cisco also did a lot of unwise hiring in 1999-2000. They had lots of lost people wandering the halls at one point I remember. Bad management, they simply grew too quickly.

    If Cisco is dumping whole groups and replacing them with rent-a-bodies, that is cause for concern. Perhaps even cause for cutting back the annual quota of H1B visas. But I'd need more data to make that conclusion.
  435. "If working 12-14 hours a day is illegal in the US, there are a helluva lot of lawbreakers. Including most of the people posing here I daresay. Certainly I have done 12 hours a day, sometimes for months at a stretch! "

    First, that's your choice. Second, yes, it is absolutely illegal. My uncle is a labor attorney, I know. There are laws against companies asking people to work that much without paying overtime.

    Now, if you volunteer for it... well, I would say there's a loose nut on your keyboard. Don, if you want to live your life like that, then fine; but I will not, and don't expect it of me. And the point that you missed in your rush to show us all how "dedicated" you are to making your company richer is that, in manilla, it's mandated.

    "I'm relatively close to Cisco (I work for a Cisco Partner), and here is the deal. Cisco continually dumps people even in the best of times. It's based on the annual review. The bottom 5 or 10% get dumped. I'm certain they are hiring also, and some of those will be on H1B status. Cause and effect? "

    Doubtful; I woud probably call it "greedy, unchecked business tactics."

    "If Cisco is dumping whole groups and replacing them with rent-a-bodies, that is cause for concern. Perhaps even cause for cutting back the annual quota of H1B visas. But I'd need more data to make that conclusion. "

    Ya, I agree. It's terrible that they're doing that. And the comment that the one India lady said is just reprehensible.
  436. Tracy writes:

    >> Now, if you volunteer for it... well, I would say there's a loose nut on your keyboard. Don, if you want to live your life like that, then fine; <
    Employers never 'require' OT, Tracy. They impose schedules which are impossible to complete in 40-per. They drop late or very late scope changes. And there are unstated consequences to failing to step up. But it's always your choice as you pointed out.

    Try a little thought experiment. What if you're outfit asked for something which would take 60 hr weeks for 2 months, with the unstated possibility that a layoff would hit you first if you didn't deliver. Consider the job market in Texas which you have written eloquently about. Consider your family.

    How much is principal worth?

    (About Cisco)

    >> Doubtful; I woud probably call it "greedy, unchecked business tactics." <
    It depends. If the layoffs and H1B hirings are directly linked I might well agree with you. But if the two actions are not linked (one group laying off and another hiring, perhaps), I probably would not agree.

    I think the wisdom of dumping the bottom 10% each year is debatable. The ethics of doing this would depend on how they did it. If the severance package is suitably generous I wouldn't find it too dubious ethically. If the firings impose large costs on the employee I sould find the policy questionable at best.



  437. "Employers never 'require' OT, Tracy. They impose schedules which are impossible to complete in 40-per. They drop late or very late scope changes. And there are unstated consequences to failing to step up. But it's always your choice as you pointed out. "

    No, that isn't acceptable. The more you accept that kind of stuff, the higher the workload. I have suggested a couple of times that if our workload gets too high, we should look at hiring someone. I don't mind working longer hours (to me, that means around 50 hours/week) TEMPORARILY. But if the workload is high for long periods oftime, then it's time to get more help, it's that simple.

    "How much is principal worth? "

    Everything. And I would rephrase to say, "how much is time with your family worth?" TO me, the world. If I had to move out into the wild or go into farming, I would in order to avoid working hours so long I never saw my kids.

    With your insinutation, it makes me wonder if you even have kids. What's a society like in your scenario? I would submit, not worth living.
  438. "They drop late or very late scope changes"

    To that I relay this quote:

    "A lack of planning on YOUR part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

    I've been asked to work longer before because of someone else's mistake, and have said no.
  439. With your insinutation, it makes me wonder if you even have kids. What's a society like in your scenario? I would submit, not worth living.<

    No kids, and unlikely to have them at my age. I have other obligations.

    One criticism I'll make of you is that you tend to personalize your replies too much. Way too much.

    What I describe is decidedly not my favored society! What I favor is very close to what you value. What I'm describing is what I have been living with, and in, for some years now. Sometimes it gets better and sometimes worse.

    Sometimes the solution to the problem is more hours, not less. Time devoted to study and skills upgrade so I have a compelling case to offer a new employer, for example.
  440. "No kids, and unlikely to have them at my age. I have other obligations. "

    Nail on the head.

    Again, just because you don't have kids and are more than willing to work 70 hours a week, don't expect that from other people. The work week is "approximately" 40 hours in America. If you make 80k/year based on that, anything more you work lowers your hourly rate also, think about that. You're working, essentially, "for free." I would suggest you tell your employer they need to hire more help. That would also help the unemployment and give someone a job.
  441. Another thing.

    As long as there are guys like you out there with no life other than work (I'm not judging you, just adding up the #'s; you said you work 12 hour days. Don, what else is there other than work in that scenario?), it "raises the bar" for other people who have family and hobbies and stuff, and raises the excpetation of everyone. Whereas, if you led a more sane and balanced life like most people, managers wouldn't be asking "well he can work 70 hours a week, why can't you??"
  442. you said you work 12 hour days. Don <

    Not quite. I wrote that I 'have worked' 12 hours days. Right now it's closer to 9 hours average and sometimes it's 8.

    And no, the 12 hour days are not something I either volunteer for or agree with. Sometimes I have found them necessary for a time.
  443. "Not quite. I wrote that I 'have worked' 12 hours days. Right now it's closer to 9 hours average and sometimes it's 8. '

    You said "for months on end" and that most people who post here work 12 hour days also. Agreed, you didn't say they do it all the time, but you insinutated it IMHO. You seem to be retreating somewhat.

    Sorry if I'm wrong, and I don't mean to be rude. But I have definitely seen people who are single with no family who essentially "raise the bar" for others on the team. That just isn't fair. Rather than give one's free time away for free to a profit-hungry company, I would suggest to those who basically volunteer those long hours to look to organizations like the Red Cross or the United Way if they need to do something with their time. That would also help out society as a whole as well.
  444. Whereas, if you led a more sane and balanced life like most people, managers wouldn't be asking "well he can work 70 hours a week, why can't you??" <

    Good point. I DO normally lead a 'sane and balanced life'. And when I'm put in an impossible position too often, for too long, with little or no reward, I do something about THAT also! The problem with working in a depression is that it can eliminate the usual escape, leaving one with two unpalatable choices. Slavery or unemployment.

  445. "Good point. I DO normally lead a 'sane and balanced life'. And when I'm put in an impossible position too often, for too long, with little or no reward, I do something about THAT also! The problem with working in a depression is that it can eliminate the usual escape, leaving one with two unpalatable choices. Slavery or unemployment. "

    You're right. Then, companies call us traitors when we leave a job we don't like. But layoff 10k workers - hey, that's just business.

    Can you tell I'm pro-labor? :)

    A friend of mine were talking about last night about 12 year olds working 10 hour days in the early 1900's. For shame. If it is legal, rest assured someone out there has little enough conscience to do it. Take care
  446. Can you tell I'm pro-labor? :) <

    Nothing wrong with that. But that isn't necessarily the same as being pro-union. A bad experience or two in my 20's convinced me of that....

    >> A friend of mine were talking about last night about 12 year olds working 10 hour days in the early 1900's. For shame. If it is legal, rest assured someone out there has little enough conscience to do it. Take care <
    Actually it was worse than that way back when. Ten hours was a reduction if anything from the 1840's in the UK at least.

    In farming societies the rule was that the workday was sunup to sundown, whatever that was. Long hours in summer, shorter hours in winter. But that was a varied workday at worse, with many breaks and even some chances to play I suspect. Also (at least in cities) about 1 day in three was some kind of religious holiday. So there was significant time off.

    The farm day didn't work in an industrial society, and regulation was needed to accomplish that. Otherwise you had 12-14 hour days doing repetitive tasks driven by a foreman. Awful for kids and not too good for adults I expect!
  447. "Actually it was worse than that way back when. Ten hours was a reduction if anything from the 1840's in the UK at least. "

    Exactly, that shows "pure" hands-off capitolism simply isn't acceptable because, if it's legal for a company or a person to do something and it benefits them in any way, someone out there is "capable" of doing it. No, there have to be checks in place for stuff like that. Take care
  448. Actually the unofficial long work schedule in America needs drastic changes. It's not only detrimental to one's relationship with family, but also draining emotionally and leads to other diseases such as obesity which is now a national crisis. I've been to many continents and never have I seen so many fat women as here. Personally I do not work long hours. That is why company culture is an important consideration when looking for jobs.

    Last year I read a stunning report on programmer's productivity around the world. The europeans posted the best efficiency with normal (around 40) working hours. They also coded much less (number of lines coded per day) but produced stronger results. Working long hours have a deleterious effect on productivity, serving as a paradox for american employers who think pushing employees to put in longer hours can accomplish more. Europeans also take long yearly vacations ranging from 4 weeks to 8 weeks, which can be quite refreshing. In our country, unless you have worked for 10 years for a company you cannot get more than a month's vacation. That's ridiculous.

    As for the Manila $10k developer's salary report, we have to remember that you cannot compare salaries and get an accurate picture. But rather, compare purchasing power with their particular salary and what standard of living they can achieve. Besides, my information is that the average Manila salary for programmers/developers is $32k which should amount to a high purchasing power. In some developing countries for example, an engineer earns $17k but the purchasing power is a US equivalent of earning $65k.

     
  449. "Last year I read a stunning report on programmer's productivity around the world. The europeans posted the best efficiency with normal (around 40) working hours. They also coded much less (number of lines coded per day) but produced stronger results. Working long hours have a deleterious effect on productivity, serving as a paradox for american employers who think pushing employees to put in longer hours can accomplish more. Europeans also take long yearly vacations ranging from 4 weeks to 8 weeks, which can be quite refreshing. In our country, unless you have worked for 10 years for a company you cannot get more than a month's vacation. That's ridiculous. "

    God, I wish like hell someone would pass around that report to a number of managers around this country.
  450. God, I wish like hell someone would pass around that report to a number of managers around this country. <

    I suggest you buy copies of Tom DeMarco's "Peopleware" and give them to managers......
  451. "I suggest you buy copies of Tom DeMarco's "Peopleware" and give them to managers...... "

    I suggest you read this when talking about the gap between the rich and the poor...

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/001.html
  452. Ok, so NATIONALIZE the copies of Peopleware!
  453. Tim Brandon writes:

    >> Actually the unofficial long work schedule in America needs drastic changes. It's not only detrimental to one's relationship with family, but also draining emotionally and leads to other diseases such as obesity which is now a national crisis. <
    I firmly agree. Tom DeMarco has been saying this for years. Another change for the worse in work environments is the change to 'hot-desking' open floor plans. There are advantages to an open arrangement, but it needs to be carefully planned to provide quiet and private spece for activities requiring these things. People in the 'Agile Software' movement have some good ideas for floor plans which encourage collaboration while also providing reasonably private space.

    >> Last year I read a stunning report on programmer's productivity around the world. The europeans posted the best efficiency with normal (around 40) working hours. They also coded much less (number of lines coded per day) but produced stronger results. <
    I've read studies indicating that actual coding ought to be as few as 4 hours a day. Team programming (aka Efficient Programming) for 8 hours might have this kind of effect whilst alleviating social needs as well.

    >> Working long hours have a deleterious effect on productivity, serving as a paradox for american employers who think pushing employees to put in longer hours can accomplish more. <
    >> Europeans also take long yearly vacations ranging from 4 weeks to 8 weeks, which can be quite refreshing. In our country, unless you have worked for 10 years for a company you cannot get more than a month's vacation. That's ridiculous. <
    I get 5 weeks a year working in the UK, which is a bit short by European standards. 6 weeks is the norm in France, Germany, and the Low Countries. In this stressful environment I find 5 weeks barely enough!

    There can be a downside to the long vacations. Germans take all 6 weeks at once, a habit which has major consequences on projects over the summer. On on project in Stuttgart which I worked the entire design and management team took off for 6 weeks and another 'shift' rotated in without any handoff. The second team had much different ideas, which led to a confusing and contradictory design. The architects were refreshed I am sure, but the programmers (who tended to be contractors) were not.

    >> As for the Manila $10k developer's salary report, we have to remember that you cannot compare salaries and get an accurate picture. But rather, compare purchasing power with their particular salary and what standard of living they can achieve. Besides, my information is that the average Manila salary for programmers/developers is $32k which should amount to a high purchasing power. In some developing countries for example, an engineer earns $17k but the purchasing power is a US equivalent of earning $65k. <
    I'm not sure you are adressing the entire point, Tim. If programmers in Outer Mongolia make 4K a year and can live like princes on that sum that is all very well for them. I thnk the issue Tracy was making is that with outsourcing programmers in the developed world are obliged to compete with that wage.

    I'm very unsure of the accuracy of Tracy's data however. Nor (for that matter) of your figure of 32K. Perhaps. I've heard figures of 25-30K or so for Mexican and Indian programmers. 10 or 12 years ago the gap was far more pronounced. In 1990 the average wage of programmers in India was $4K as I recall, 10% of the US average. That was an enormous differential and led to all kinds of strange arrangements (and some horror stories).

    Tracy's stories to the contrary, the market worked and continues to work. The wage gap has narrowed to something approximating the difference in productivity and communication skills. In fact, I daresay that US-based programmers how hold a unit cost advantage over our counterparts in the third world. I suspect their relative willingness to do maintenance, support, and testing give them a comparative advantage however.


  454. When did a 40 hour week (or less) become some kind of professional right? I would challenge anyone in the tech industry today to compare their salary against the national median family income. And when you look at that figure, keep in mind that median family income is a household income. Every time I start feeling stepped on because I am working long hours towards the end of a project I do the comparison...just to clear my vision.

    As a father and husband I make sure to make time for my family. The time I spend with my family is directed by personal choice, not by government mandate.

    "Last year I read a stunning report on programmer's productivity around the world. The europeans posted the best efficiency with normal..."
    I've been hearing about this report for the last 5 years but have yet to see it myself. My only real reply is this. Take a piece of paper and create two lists. On list A write down every US tech company you can think of. On list B write down every non-US tech company you can think of.
  455. "As a father and husband I make sure to make time for my family. The time I spend with my family is directed by personal choice, not by government mandate. "

    Not if it's up to the company you work for - you'll be working 70 hour weeks.

    "When did a 40 hour week (or less) become some kind of professional right? "

    Probably as a result of labor reform in the early 1900's when 12 year olds were working 50 hour weeks Thomas. If companies "can" work you like that, there's some manager out there with little enough conscience to do it to someone. No, there have to be restraints around stuff like that. I understand that everyone now and then you have to work 50 hours/week, but it shouldn't be commonplace, society as a whole suffers imho, daycares raising tim mcveighs etc.

    Also, when was the last time you worked 30 hours/week becuase things weren't very busy? Right.
  456. "Not if it's up to the company you work for - you'll be working 70 hour weeks."
    ...
    "Probably as a result of labor reform in the early 1900's when 12 year olds were working 50 hour weeks Thomas. If companies "can" work you like that, there's some manager out there with little enough conscience to do it to someone. No, there have to be restraints around stuff like that. I understand that everyone now and then you have to work 50 hours/week, but it shouldn't be commonplace, society as a whole suffers imho, daycares raising tim mcveighs etc."

    Nice...now put away the little red book, stop preaching to masses and pay attention.

    Ok, this is really simple...I work in a profession, not as a skilled or unskilled labourer. My skills and education put me in a supplier position rather than in a demand position. We in this industry don't build cars, we don't build houses, we don't work on factory floors (for the most part). We mostly sit on our asses thinking about information technology and we typically get paid offensive amounts to do so. I'm not complaining about what I do for a living. Ever shaken the hand of a man who does concrete for a living, now that's work. For those of you of a blue collar background, remember how your parent's used to smell when they got home from work, sweat, auto grease, etc.? I love the fact that I get paid a very nice salary and that I get to go do something that for the most part really feels like a hobby.

    Now, this next part is not meant for everyone, just our industry. If you work 80 hours a week that's your problem. That means you choose to work 80 hours a week. No one makes you. Don't like your working hours, go wait tables or pick up a shovel or man the counter at 7-Eleven. But wait, don't want to take an 80% pay cut? No one owes you 60K a year.

    "Also, when was the last time you worked 30 hours/week becuase things weren't very busy? Right."
    I've never worked 30 hours a week because things weren't very busy because I've never been somewhere where things weren't very busy. I take the time that I need to. Again, it's my decision. If I need to take the afternoon off to take my child to the park I can. Why, because I work in an industry where I have that flexibility. Try doing that if you have to actually work for a living.

  457. "We mostly sit on our asses thinking about information technology and we typically get paid offensive amounts to do so. "

    What in the HELL does that have to do with anything? Sowe're not doing meanial labor; BIG DEAL! Man, if I cold make a living at it, I'd rather do carpentry or construction for a living ANY day and not have toworry about HORRIBLE health problems like obesity, heart problems, carpel tunnel syndrome, strokes from super high stress, and high blood pressure anyday of the week buddy.

    "I'm not complaining about what I do for a living. Ever shaken the hand of a man who does concrete for a living, now that's work."

    Oh give me a break. That's just a plain stupid question.

    "I love the fact that I get paid a very nice salary and that I get to go do something that for the most part really feels like a hobby. "

    So you enjoy your job; ok, that means you should work for free. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with houw many hours you should work for the company. I'd love to be a math teacher but couldn't make a living doing it; does that mean I should do it for free? Your logic really doesn't add up at all imo.


    ""We mostly sit on our asses thinking about information technology and we typically get paid offensive amounts to do so. "

    What in the HELL does that have to do with anything? Sowe're not doing meanial labor; BIG DEAL! Man, if I cold make a living at it, I'd rather do carpentry or construction for a living ANY day and not have toworry about HORRIBLE health problems like obesity, heart problems, carpel tunnel syndrome, strokes from super high stress, and high blood pressure anyday of the week buddy.

    "I'm not complaining about what I do for a living. Ever shaken the hand of a man who does concrete for a living, now that's work."

    Oh give me a break. That's just a plain stupid question.

    "I love the fact that I get paid a very nice salary and that I get to go do something that for the most part really feels like a hobby. "

    So you enjoy your job; ok, that means you should work for free. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with houw many hours you should work for the company. I'd love to be a math teacher but couldn't make a living doing it; does that mean I should do it for free? Your logic really doesn't add up at all imo.

    "No one makes you. Don't like your working hours, go wait tables or pick up a shovel or man the counter at 7-Eleven. But wait, don't want to take an 80% pay cut? No one owes you 60K a year. "

    WHAT?? Man, you must be a manager! I'm not even sure what you're talking about,or why you're even saying it. You're on the wrong forum, because you certainly don't sound like a developer, you sound like a brainwashed manager to me making 120k. If you want to work 80 hours a week, if does NOT mean that you have to go wait tables. Where do you get off making a statement like that? Are you insinuating that if I'm not willing to work over 50 hours a week that I don't belong in IT??? Tell that to all the people who love the work I've done! Instead of volunteering to work all these extra hours, maybe you should look at being a "big brother" to some young kid, or volunteering at the red cross with your family, or look to the united way. DOn't give away all your time to some profit-hungry company because you "like" working with computers and you consider it a hobby anyway!

    Damn, I'm about done talking to you. It's like talking to a politician.

    "I've never worked 30 hours a week because things weren't very busy because I've never been somewhere where things weren't very busy. I take the time that I need to. Again, it's my decision. If I need to take the afternoon off to take my child to the park I can. Why, because I work in an industry where I have that flexibility. Try doing that if you have to actually work for a living. "

    I don't know about you, but I DO work for a living! I respect this forum, so I won't resort to name calling, but man there's a different way I'd like to be saying to you what I'm saying right now. Your ignorant remarks REALLY make me angry. I'm done talking to you, this is getting nowhere. Hey, it's Saturday, why don't you go into work or something.
  458. "As a father and husband I make sure to make time for my family. "

    How can you if you're working all the time?
  459. By the way, there are often typos in my e-mails that might lead someone to believe I can't even speak english; no I'm just typing in a hurry! I wish we could edit our posts... :(
  460. ""As a father and husband I make sure to make time for my family. ""

    "How can you if you're working all the time?"

    By making choices...
    We have made the choice to live closer to where I work. This means a smaller house but it also means I have a 5 minute commute each way instead of a 45 minute commute.
    We have made a choice to have dinner EVERY night together as a family, no matter what I have going on at work. This is made easier by the previous choice.
    I have made a choice to limit myself to 1/2 an hour of television a night during the week.
    I make to choice to work when I need to and attend to my family when I need to.
    I made the choice to work in the industry that I do. This means on the upside that I make a very good living. On the downside it means I have to put in more time when necessary.
  461. As a father and husband I make sure to make time for my family. ""


    >>How can you if you're working all the time?"

    >>>By making choices...

    No, actually, it's simple math; if you're working until 7:30 or 8pm at night, your family isn't going to want to wait that late to eat dinner. Your kids will more than likely be in bed by 8, or 9 at the latest. If you're living your life like that instead of standing up to your company and saying "HIRE SOMONE" then that is your choice. But DON'T expect that of other people.


    "We have made the choice to live closer to where I work. This means a smaller house but it also means I have a 5 minute commute each way instead of a 45 minute commute.
    We have made a choice to have dinner EVERY night together as a family, no matter what I have going on at work. This is made easier by the previous choice. "

    All I hear you saying is you're making choices and sacrifices, and changing your own life for some profit-hungry company; shouldn't THEY be making some choices?? I also heard of a "choice" a certain CEO here in Dallas made to relocate a rather large company because it was closer to HIS house. How's that for trusting your higher ups to look out for your well-being?

    And why are you volunteering Thomas?? What's so hard about the company respecting your personal time and your family life? Again, I'm not talking occasional long hours here, I'm talking consistently long hours; not sure which you're talking about. I don't mind working long temporarily, but again if it continues, that's a sign that the workload is too high, and it's time to hire someone IMO. Simple.

    But, the more you work over, the higher they will expect of you. If you just say "OK, it's 5:30, I'm going home, and I'll work on that tomorrow." If they need it asap then you simply say "Ok, but I leave at 5:30. Maybe we need to hire somoene." I'VE DONE IT. My experience has been that, in the case where a boss is just trying to sqeeze more out of you, suggesting they pay someone else by hiring will scare them off of squeezing pretty quick. If they really do need that work, then they very well may actually consider hiring someone, which is also good.

    "I have made a choice to limit myself to 1/2 an hour of television a night during the week. "

    I hardly EVER watch tv anymore. If I do, it's occasional, and it's probably spongebob squarepants. Anyway, I'm way too busy to watch tv. What I do with my time is none of the company's business, they just need to respect it enough to give it to me. Time is all we have. I've never known a dad on his deathbed to say "I wish I'd have spent more time at work."

    "I made the choice to work in the industry that I do. This means on the upside that I make a very good living. On the downside it means I have to put in more time when necessary. "

    Who says? Why? I don't remember being told in college "if you go into computers, you'll have to work 50 hour weeks. If you go into law, you'll have to work 60 hour weeks, but if you go into social work you'll have to work 45.72 hours/week." I must have missed out on seeing that grid.

    And again, it's technically against the law to work people long hours without overtime pay (my uncle is a labor attorney, I know). Also, each hour you work over 40, you're mathematically decreasing your hourly rate. And, again, if this is your choice, that's fine, but imho when people do that there are serious, negative ramifications for their group and society as a whole.

    Just to clarify, are you saying you consistently work 50 hour weeks, or occasionally? It makes a difference. And, after working 50+ hour weeks to get out a project, do you then work 30 hour weeks when there isn't much going on?
  462. No, actually, it's simple math; if you're working until 7:30 or 8pm at night, your family isn't going to want to wait that late to eat dinner. Your kids will more than likely be in bed by 8, or 9 at the latest. If you're living your life like that instead of standing up to your company and saying "HIRE SOMONE" then that is your choice. But DON'T expect that of other people. <

    >> also means I have a 5 minute commute each way <
    Tracy, sometimes you don't seem to read everything people are writing!

    The dude said he lives 5 MINUTES from WORK! That means that even when he's pulling all-nighters (if he does, that's the most unproductive practice I know of) the fastest food available is right at home! In fact it's entirely practical for him to spend another hour with the kiddies until bedtime, then head back for a couple hours and still hit the sack before midnight!

    Another way he could do it is to dial in from home or carry a diskette home or review printed manuals or even to think a bit about whats going on.

    Some of MY best-spent time is in the shower after the spray has woken me up. I'm as fresh and rested then as I will be all day then.


  463. {{When did a 40 hour week (or less) become some kind of professional right?}}
    It's a human's right not to work like slaves, unless of one's own accord. When work becomes all that your life is, then when you're at your deathbed, you will have realized that time went by like a nanosecond, and an unfulfilled one at that.

    {{I would challenge anyone in the tech industry today to compare their salary against the national median family income.}}
    So if we tech. people earn more than the median family does that mean we have to work longer as well ? Don't forget that tech people put in much more harder work (or brains) to achieve where they are right now than those median income households who might hold data entry or clerical or secreterial jobs and the likes of them. Because we have invested more effort, so we deserve to earn more than the median income households who haven't invested that much effort or self-education for the same number of hours worked per week. A doctor puts in sometimes 7 years or more of education, so he makes $100,000 to $350,000, we don't complain, they've earned it.

    {{I've been hearing about this report for the last 5 years but have yet to see it myself.}}
    It was published last year by CNN, and was also on their website.

    {{My only real reply is this. Take a piece of paper and create two lists. On list A write down every US tech company you can think of. On list B write down every non-US tech company you can think of}}
    Okay, I've done that, now what ?
    .
  464. {{We have made a choice to have dinner EVERY night together
     as a family, no matter what I have going on at work.}}

    This exactly shows how pathetic the work hours situation is in our country where a man has to point out and be proud of the fact that he sits for dinner with his family EVERY night. In other countries this is taken for granted. It is like saying "Every day I have some food to eat". Well of course you do, what is there to be so proud of or point out ? But in our country, this mundane and normal practice of sitting down with family every night to have dinner has become rare enough for a man to point out that he does so, and be proud of it. This further supports my assertion that we work too many hours per weekly, which is counterproductive and causes health problems like obesity, which I thankfully am not afflicted with, but my fellow americans, especially the plethora of fat ladies are afflicted with, which in turn is punishment for us men that we cannot enjoy slim curvy women that men of other countries take for granted. For every slim
    woman in our country , there are 7 hound dog men trying to win her, leaving a lot of qualified men to fend for the fat arse women. Again, this is a broad general analysis and not reflective of personal circumstances.
  465. "This exactly shows how pathetic the work hours situation is in our country where a man has to point out and be proud of the fact that he sits for dinner with his family EVERY night. In other countries this is taken for granted. It is like..."
    The point wasn't about dinner or even other countries. The point of the original post was to say that your life is what you make of it. I was asked what I did to ensure that I spent time with my family and I responded by enumerating some decisions I had made in my life to do so. I don't need the company to watch out for me to make sure I spend time with my family nor do I need my government to do so. I can make those decisions for myself.
  466. Here's the rub. I work as long as it takes to get the job done. I look at the bigger picture. If we can deliver a quality project on time, maybe we won a client, maybe additional business. If we don't deliver on an aggressive timeline, the client is not happy and he walks, maybe we lose the bid, whatever. What I am trying to say is this. If you lose a potential client in todays market, you are cutting your own throat. Its all about the client right now. A year and a half ago, we had business knocking at our doors. Its not that way anymore. You do what you got to do to win the bid and keep the client happy. If, of course, you work for a large company supporting your own software, you don't have a comfort zone either. Nobody is safe from layoffs anymore. And if you aren't willing to sacrifice, they'll hire a hack willing to take that fat salary cut. Believe me, there are plenty of hacks out there waiting for you to start your whining about long hours and etc. I know. I watched companies pluck the corn seed right out of high-school to meet the demand a year and a half ago. This is your competition. Suck it up.
  467. "If you lose a potential client in todays market, you are cutting your own throat. Its all about the client right now. "

    Right, and that means hiring additional personell instead of making profits off the backs of your workers by working them into the ground.
  468. Health care facilities in our country are top-notch. Health care itself is horrible. In some developed countries, the public has to pay a bare minimum annual health fee (around $150). This entitles them to free medicine, immunizations, prescription, doctor's visits, surgeries (yes free), etc. How do they do it with economies not as strong as ours, pray tell ? Could it be more caring governments and proper budget allocations, and lack of greedy filthy HMO types ?
  469. "How do they do it with economies not as strong as ours, pray tell ? Could it be more caring governments and proper budget allocations, and lack of greedy filthy HMO types ? "

    Lol, how true. The govt in this country needs more checks and balances for sure. If we had them, we could trust the govt with something like healthcar. And yes it's top notch here, but it's also top notch in alot of socialistic countries like sweden and canada. The only difference is, here you have people like julia roberts getting lip implants while children go without immunizaion shots. How wrong.
  470. Does anyone have statistical information on the demand for DBA's versus Application Developers in Texas ? I am going through a career move to Oracle RDBMS.
  471. "Does anyone have statistical information on the demand for DBA's versus Application Developers in Texas ? I am going through a career move to Oracle RDBMS. "

    I don't have any data, but I can tell you that that is a good field to get into, but it may be difficult. A "Junior" dba is considered someone with less than like 5 years of experience. Recall Oracle has been around decades, so you'll be competing with guys that have been doing that for 10+ years.

    THe pay is roughly what it is for a senior Java developer. Personally I like data modeling but wouldn't want to do a dba; have no desire to do system tuning and set up schemas and users. Take care
  472. One of the reasons for wanting to switch is the stability of Oracle and other database systems. Application development is relatively new and constantly evolving, with new tools emerging every month. I hear that a DBA with app. dev. experience is an in-demand combination.

    I know the following anecdote is not representative of the DB industry but DBA's do have a certain level of power that developers do not. A friend of a friend worked in a company as a DBA. His genius was to use cryptic names and variables when working with the database. Thus only he could easily decipher the db and so the company was forced to keep him hired.
  473. "I hear that a DBA with app. dev. experience is an in-demand combination. "

    RIght now maybe; but no more so than a good developer.

    " know the following anecdote is not representative of the DB industry but DBA's do have a certain level of power that developers do not. A friend of a friend worked in a company as a DBA. His genius was to use cryptic names and variables when working with the database. Thus only he could easily decipher the db and so the company was forced to keep him hired. "

    No one is more crucial to a company's IT than a developer who really knows how the system works - no one. Usually, the developer is very keen on the database schemas etc. I've never worked with a dba that was irreplacable; in fact, most of the time they're overrated...
  474. Tim writes:

    "One of the reasons for wanting to switch is the stability of Oracle and other database systems. Application development is relatively new and constantly evolving, with new tools emerging every month. I hear that a DBA with app. dev. experience is an in-demand combination."

    I believe this is true. Moreover, expert Oracle DBAs have better job security than developers do during downturns. It's a competitive field and will become more so with all of the books available for getting DBA certification. Note also that there is a continuing push to simplify data access with technologies such as JDBC, Visual Basic, and ASP.

    I would say that very good DBA's will continue to be in great demand but that a better skills combination would be Oracle DBA with something else.
  475. DBA's are overrated sys admin's. Most of the places I've been the developers do most of the databse design anyway.
  476. Tracy writes:

    "DBA's are overrated sys admin's. Most of the places I've been the developers do most of the databse design anyway."

    Well, you obviously haven't worked with a good one yet Tracy. Most of the best DBA's ar good developers as well. There is another kind who are basically Oracle internals specialists. They can eb worth their weight in gold to the right organization, also.
  477. I was 1/2 kidding, but you're right I have met one or two that used to be developers and were pretty good. The problem though, is most of them have NEVER been developers before and have almost an "anti-developer" sentiment to them. Haven't you seen alot of those?
  478. Gawd, how MANY Oracle DBA's have you worked with!????

    I generally don't work with a lot of them to be honest. The one whom I'm working with lately is half developer, half DBA. He's good. I've seen several other good half'n halfs before and one really good internals specialist.

    Apart from that I can't generalize, except to say that I don't regard people who can set up a log and make a backup to be legit DBA's.
  479. "Gawd, how MANY Oracle DBA's have you worked with!???? "

    Don, before I came here I was a consultant for a company that had about 30 dba's (although most have been laid off now), so believe me, I know a bunch, and they all seemed to have that anti-programmer attitude. In fact, one of ther easonsI left was because the guy at the top used to be a dba and actually made it known that he thought Java developers were overpaid. Ya, he was a moron.

    "Apart from that I can't generalize, except to say that I don't regard people who can set up a log and make a backup to be legit DBA's. "

    That's basically my point...

    I worked with a "dba" a long time time ago who was pretty green; this was Informix. The databases had like NO integrity at all, and one of the first things i suggested (this was about 9 years ago) was that we should be using transactions. The discussion went on (it was a meeting of about 6 people) for a few minutes and, all of a sudden, she piped up and said "Now, what exactly do you mean by 'transactions'??" I couldn't believe it. cya
  480. {Apart from that I can't generalize, except to say that I don't regard people who can set up a log and make a backup to be legit DBA's.}

    If you investigate the DBA field, there are two types of DBA's. There are the DBA's and DBBS's. The latter might conform to your description above, as they are basically DataBaseBabySitters. That is, there tasks are on a passive keep-it-running mode. As for the other type, they actually carry a wealth of in-depth knowledge and are constantly challenged at the workplace, thus a lot of these types make more than 90k. I've read the curriculum to obtain the certification in oracle DBA, it is not child's play.

  481. Guys lets focus on the subject (title message):-) Don't want to be mean here.

    Is any one hiring J2EE developers/Architects in Houston, TX. Recently in the market after houston office closure. Any leads will be helpful and ofcourse appreciated.

    I have MS in computer science with 3 1/2 years experience in java based technologies.


    SG
  482. {{Is any one hiring J2EE developers/Architects in Houston, TX. Recently in the market after houston office closure. Any leads will be helpful and ofcourse appreciated.

    I have MS in computer science with 3 1/2 years experience in java based technologies.}}

    So Sree, as in Indian, do you agree with the Indian lady who commented that it's good that Americans are getting laid off so that you and other Singh's, Rao's, Ramavishnu's, Kurty's and Mamooty's can take their place instead (Refer to Story related by Mr. Milburn earlier in the thread) ?

    I read today in Discover journal that India has the least occurrence of Alzheimer's in the world (1% of population above 65) because of the high content of turmeric in their curry dishes. Can you recommend some Indian restaurants in Houston ?

    Let's also stay focused on the topic as you suggested. Try dice, net-temps, ragingmouse, monster, hotjobs (dot coms) and plain networking for that J2EE position, it's a sad state of affairs that our Master's graduates are out of work.

  483. "So Sree, as in Indian, do you agree with the Indian lady who commented that it's good that Americans are getting laid off so that you and other Singh's, Rao's, Ramavishnu's, Kurty's and Mamooty's can take their place instead (Refer to Story related by Mr. Milburn earlier in the thread) ?"

    I didn't hear this from Sree at all. With 3.5 years experience I would guess that Sree probably is a green card holder, which makes him a potential citizen at very least.

    Do you think it's a good thing that some Sing's, Rao's, and Kurty's on H1B visas are being sent home so that Tim's, Tracy's, and Don's can take their place? Turn it around and see how it feels!

    This guy Sree may be a citizen already. As such he deserves as much sympathy and help as anyone else does!