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News: BEA chief says dot-Net has already lost to Java

  1. BEA chief says dot-Net has already lost to Java (13 messages)

    Bill Coleman, chairman of Web development specialist BEA Systems, has said that Microsoft's dot-Net initiative for Web services has already lost to Java in the battle for corporate customers, despite industry doubts as to which approach will eventually gain the upper hand.

    Read BEA chief says dot-Net has already lost to Java.

    Threaded Messages (13)

  2. It could be a little too early to declare victory. The number of C# books out there continues to swell daily. Of course at one time there was a huge number of J++ books and we know where they went. Yep! They're in landfill now. Anyway I have no inclination to look at anything on dot-Net or C# until I have to. Which by the way I hope is never.
  3. Ha ha ha ha ha...[ Go to top ]

    It never ceases to amaze me how the big shots at some of the biggest software companies in the world succeed at making announcements about things they can't possibly back up. Ellison, Gates, and Jobs are well known for their failed predictions/announcements and now we can add BEA to the list.

    As I recall, the J2EE vision (lead by Sun, of course) has been trying to figure out exactly what they want to do with support for SOAP, XML-RPC, WDSL, etc. for quite some time. Maybe someone should tell the software makers that web services are dead and it's now hip to have proprietary RPC that works only with one platform. Then the vendors would all actually meet the current trend (since not many of them are doing more than paying lip service to real world applications of web services in their products) and just keep quiet. Java could stick with RMI only, which Sun keeps pushing anyway. Microsoft could stick to COM, DCOM, and COM+ since that's really all they have for production purposes at this point.

    I'm still waiting for software companies to seriously use web service technology in their products. And I'm not just talking about development platform vendors either. I'm talking about those providing all sorts of business applications that a developer would greatly benefit from having a consistent, well known, and open standard to access the API. Sigh...
  4. "Dot-Net is a brilliant strategy for controlling the desktop ­ but soon there won't be a desktop [in the enterprise]," he said.


    ---

    While theoretically that might be true, theoretically, an enterprise user may want a richer interface than the Web, and the only way to do that (with Java) is to push Swing apps. In a controlled environment (e.g. the enterprise?) that might be true. So maybe that's his point. Not sure.

    But it just depends on whether corporate managers get used to a richer Web GUI offered by proprietary browser extensions and prefer that to a Bland Web/Rich Swing dichotomy.

    You have to admit, with .NET the non-Web experience will feel a whole lot like a web experience as Microsoft converges the two experiences. It can push that convergence because it can afford to create proprietary extionsions to the browser.

    Any way, it's pretty compelling, even though I'm up to my neck in BEA Weblogic and BEA's Portal offerings. But his comment was interesting.

    Steve

  5. BEA either doesn't realise it or doesn't want customers to realise it, but the fact is that Tomcat is quietly sweeping the servlet/JSP market, and JBoss is poised to do the same in the EJB space.

    JBoss in 2002 will be like Apache in 1997, Linux in 1999 or Tomcat in 2001 - a recognised force that cannot be ignored, -- or beaten.

    Ganesh Prasad
  6. Java, .NET, and Open Source[ Go to top ]

    All very fair comments. Three platforms, rather than two, I would say comprise the software soap opera:

    Java
    .NET
    Open Source

    The dynamics of this soap opera prevent anyone from losing alltogether. As long as highly-educated scientists dominate the high positions in the corporate space, the server side will remain too intelligent to fall for Microsoft antics. This space will lean heavily towards the well-understood virtues of the venerable Java platform. The cost advantages of Open Source will defeat commercial Java server vendors. Microsoft will dominate the client-side for a long time. Sun will make money from licensing Java, the sandal brigade will make money by supporting their free-ware, and Microsoft will make money by providing the most advanced GUI in the world.

    So I see the three platforms each governing separate domains, namely Sun as the server-side framework provider, open source providing the implementation of server-side standards, and Microsoft providing the front end. Oracle will stand high for a long time to come (25+ years), but MySQL will supplant lesser databases in the smaller desktop, workgroup, departmental, and even some enterprise spaces. Note that each platform has a lead in its own space, namely the leads of enterprise computing, true standards (through open code), and client-side market share held by Sun Java, Open Source, and Microsoft respectively.
  7. Java, .NET, and Open Source[ Go to top ]

    What's strange about this statement is that a key advantage of both M$ and BEA (et al) are all moving to use the same SOAP standards. The major killer advantange here is that M$ client apps such as Word, Excel will integrate with back office enterprise J2EE applications. In many environments, the whole point of .NET and Java talking is that people can use their existing M$ front office with their WS enabled back offices. Web services are not exclusive to the enterprise - We need both for the story to work!

    Just my 1p worth...

    John
  8. Java, .NET, and Open Source[ Go to top ]

    I could take issue with about every sentence of this post but I will restrict myself to a couple.

    'true standards (through open code),'

    Standards define an interface - not an implementation. The point of standards is that implementer guarantees to fullfill the interface contract. Making a standard dependant on the implementation (open source or otherwise)completely misses the point.

    'Oracle will stand high for a long time to come (25+ years),'

    We are seeing a sea-change shift from monolithic corporate databases to web services and components. These don't need databases that can support x gigabytes and multi-dimentional views. Each component/service has its own self contained DB.

    I happen to think that Oracle has a very vunerable franchise as service base deveopment occurs.
  9. Re: Java, .NET, and Open Source[ Go to top ]

    <i>Standards define an interface - not an implementation. The point of standards is that implementer guarantees to fullfill the interface contract. Making a standard dependant on the implementation (open source or otherwise)completely misses the point.</i>


    Not quite. Open Source implementations of a standard keep commercial implementations honest. That's why we need an open (and free of charge) reference implementation that is also of production quality for every standard.
  10. I don't see Tomcat sweeping the JSP market. I see it being used for development purposes, but not deployment. Tomcat 3.x had performance issues. 4.0 is better, but it's pretty new.

    I didn't see Linux sweeping the world in 1999. I still saw a lot of Solaris purchases. What I did see was a lot of high-flying Linux stocks that are now nearly worthless.

    So, I guess what I'm saying is, open source doesn't mean you'll win by default. Especially with this arrogant attitude that comes out of the jBoss.org website. (there are ways to be arrogant and not tick off your customers too much.. look at Larry.)

  11. I don't see Tomcat sweeping the JSP market. I see it being used for development purposes, but not deployment. Tomcat 3.x had performance issues. 4.0 is better, but it's pretty new.


    Well, obviously this is anecdotal and not a scientific study, but quite a number of people have told me they're using Tomcat for their *production* stuff and they're happy with it. Besides, a lot of very successful technologies start at the low-end, high-volume side and move up in terms of capabilities (Think DOS and Windows). Tomcat is already there and can't be dislodged.

    > I didn't see Linux sweeping the world in 1999. I still saw a lot of Solaris purchases. What I did see was a lot of high-flying Linux stocks that are now nearly worthless.

    Don't confuse Linux with Linux companies. Linux companies are folding, because Linux is not something you can make money on. But it is something you can save money on, so that's why its uptake by customers is so healthy.

    (And by the way, all those Solaris purchases slowed quite dramatically with the dot-com crash.)

    > So, I guess what I'm saying is, open source doesn't mean you'll win by default.

    Perhaps not, but I'm talking specifically about Tomcat and JBoss, and Apache and Linux before them.

    > Especially with this arrogant attitude that comes out of the jBoss.org website. (there are ways to be arrogant and not tick off your customers too much.. look at Larry.)

    Arrogance is tolerable if the software's good ;-)

    Ganesh
  12. Never underestimate the power of the dark-side.
  13. As Joe Friday said..."Just the facts, ma'am"
  14. BEA is always really arrogant and aggresive; lucky for them they have a great product. IMO, this guy should be worrying about the competition in his own back yard; namely IBM, oracle, and HP. all of these guys have strong app servers.

    who does this guy think he is kidding? M$FT will ALWAYS be a competitor to any freaking company that creates anything cool and useful. and they have the marketing and business leverage to squeeze out anybody. look at what happened to mighty netscape.

    unless .net includes all OS then java and apps that run with java will always compete and be in business. but i can tell you that myself and many other developers are currently learning c#/.net because i can gaurantee you M$FT will be coming out with it's own technology to compete with the app servers - and they will have it within the next 2 years. it will take away business from java shops....maybe it will win. i hope not.