In December, Java was more popular than .Net for building Web services, according to a ZDNet UK poll, but weeks later the position had dramatically reversed; investigation revealed just what lengths Microsoft will go to to promote its products.
It appears that Microsoft have been rigging the poll!
The article is located at:
Typical Microsoft? :)
If it looks like a rat
smells like a rat
it's Greg Leake
"If it looks like a rat
smells like a rat
it's Greg Leake"
The Serverside should create a new category on the homepage in honor of our marketing friend at Microsoft- "Spot the Leake." Extra points for identifying fake alias posts dedicated to spreading misinformation.
n n: "If it looks like a rat
smells like a rat
it's Greg Leake "
In most of all newsgroups such a post would have been removed...
In a separate post, Leonard Norrgård mentioned:
And we all remember last Augusts story, when Microsoft sent fake support letters (even from dead persons) to the US states' attorneys, trying to convince them there was a grass-roots campaign for Microsoft (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2093751,00.html
Also see Slashdot.org http://slashdot.org/articles/02/01/09/1621256.shtml
So this is how Microsoft gets "mindshare" for its products??
It seems that now that .NET is about to be released (not sure about that) some sort of buzz has it that many companies are longing to go for it. At the same time, articles like http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20011101.html
seem to blossom. However, in my working environment, there are only a few companies ready to get into it and run the risk of developping on an immature product.
Of course, there are many companies traditionally very tightly linked with Microsoft or that did not get on the J2EE boat and these are the ones ready to go for it. Most of them already use Visual Studio anyway... My deep feeling is that J2EE is now a mature standard and it's going to be hard to destabilize it. It is in my opinion very well specified and has the strongest developer community (maybe ties with the VB community). There's quite a momentum.
That story about ZDNet votes is just an example how big companies can manipulate any kinds of medias... Actually, it just like the pathetic benchmarking bickerings on PetStore and to a much lesser extend, ECPerf. Companies only want to show what is good for *their* business: that's why statistics are most of the time biased. A much better way to have reliable statictics is to go on www.jobserve.com, type in C# in the search box (returns 100 jobs), then type in Java (returns 2600 jobs). Then you probably have a better snapshot of the European market at least.
I agree, businesses only want to show stats that show their products in a good light - coz they're out to make money.
I love your example of looking at job serve to compare the keyword "Java" to "C#" - try some different keywords (I'm sad, I did... C++ = 3418, Java = 2596, VB = 572, COBOL = 388, J2EE = 572, EJB = 313, JSP = 290, ASP = 1160, .Net = 363... perhaps not the clear cut statistics you were trying to argue) ;-)
Whoops, VB was 2495...
As I said, there is a strong VB developers community too! :)) Those guys are probably doing some .NET without knowing anyway because the .NET platform is just a marketing concept. I think Microsoft had its MTS (JTA), COM (CORBA/IIOP), ASP (JSP), DLL, ODBC (JDBC), MQMS (JMS), VB (Java) J2EE-equivalent acronyms for a while (not sure about EJB's though but I'm not a MS expert). Just last week I realized that MSN Messenger is part of .NET. Maybe passport, Outlook and Office are part of .NET too! :) Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't .NET a mix of formerly rather heteroclit non-standardized MS components + the multi-language concept + C# ? One of the few advanced component MS has is SOAP but J2EE 1.4 will standardize web applications (maybe using bits of SOAP by the way like in ebXML). It smells like there is a lot of legacy crap in .NET despite what the marketing says and I'm really interested in knowing the number of bugs that will come with the first releases... Are service packs part of .NET by the way ?
.Net = 363
looks like jobserve removes the . and thus it also searches for Net, which a lot of people have used as an abbrev for Network (Net Admin, etc)
In answer to your question, I do not put any faith in this poll either. It amazes me that Ziff would even bother to run an online poll...however you look at it online polls are subject to extreme manipulation and are very unscientfic. This would be true no matter what the poll results say...I don't put any faith in their previous poll that put Java way ahead either. Bottom line is that I do not doubt vote rigging goes on, but it's naive to assume that Java developers never manipulate online polls, and that only the "evil" Microsoft does. Quite frankly, I am sure manipulations occur both ways, even though neither Sun, IBM, Microsoft or other major ISV that I know of promotes or endorses such a practice.
Group Product Manager
I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the fact that you offer your input on TSS (Even if some idiots make fun of Microsoft, and personify it as you).
Keep it up.
"I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the fact that you offer your input on TSS (Even if some idiots make fun of Microsoft, and personify it as you)."
Isn't that the nice thing about large monopolistic corportions. They are personified by nothing and accountable to nobody. An exceptionally handy characteristic when they are caught using questionable practices to achieve business objectives.
As I seem to remember, Greg Leake is hardly the first representative of a major corporation or organization to get flamed here. It goes with the territory of online forums. Of course, it's idiotic to make fun of Microsoft. They have such an appealing vision to offer. Forget squabbling over our favorite J2EE vendors, who if they individually are no better than Microsoft, at least are forced to consistently improve the quality of their products and keep their prices competitive, due to the fact that there's still a decent number of them. Forget portability, forget having anything to actually discuss in the brave new world of Microsoft one-stop shopping on the server as well as the client-side.
"It amazes me that Ziff would even bother to run an online poll..."- Greg
It amazes me that Microsoft would even bother to rig an online poll...If the support for .net web services is there.
"however you look at it online polls are subject to extreme manipulation and are very unscientfic" - Greg
Thankyou for demonstrating this to us and dropping the bar one more level.
"I don't put any faith in their previous poll that put Java way ahead either" -Greg
Java has been around for more than 5 years. No need to poll, just check out the job listings(java/j2ee/xml).
"Bottom line is that I do not doubt vote rigging goes on, but it's naive to assume that Java developers never manipulate online polls, and that only the "evil" Microsoft does. Quite frankly, I am sure manipulations occur both ways, even though neither Sun, IBM, Microsoft or other major ISV that I know of promotes or endorses such a practice." -Greg
Criminals have the same mindset; Meanwhile, the vast majority of the population abides by the law.
> looks like jobserve removes the . and thus it also searches for Net, which a lot of people have used as an abbrev for Network (Net Admin, etc)
I have noticed the same on another job site (Vacature.com
- in Dutch). I searched for .NET, and I got a list of network-related jobs. At first glance, none of them asked for .NET.
(C# has a similar problem as well.)
For the record: I have a standing search for jobs containing "Java", and that one hasn't matched anything recently.
I guess it's just a bad time to be searching a new job. :-(
Disinformation has been one of the main guerrilla tactics of MS to sell their products. And you can sadly see how the success of theServerSide made us MS new target. Ridiculous post like "J2EE versus .NET Web Services" and ".Net: A Better Mousetrap for Web Services?" make us waste time and naively convert us in MS marketing agents. Can we block this kind of posts?. I mean *we* are "the J2EE community" . If you want .NET disinformation why don't you just go to microsot.com?. The popular site Javalobby is now facing the same problem and taking measures
. Think about it.
Nobody trusts the online surveys any person (.NET supporters) can vote more than one time. For that blaming the Microsoft Corporation is Ridiculous. It is really stupid to publish the article and discus it.
Pat B said:
>Nobody trusts the online surveys any person (.NET supporters) can vote more than one time.
Agreed, though some simple client or server side scripting can eliminate casual attempts.
>For that blaming the Microsoft Corporation is Ridiculous.
Did you actually read the article? The point was that the ZDNet server logs *proved* the rigging was due to Microsoft. The bulk of the large rush of votes came from the microsoft.com domain (including the guy that tried to vote 220+ times), many of which (as shown by the Referrer logs) as the result of clicking a link in an email they sent round. Why is it ridiculous to blame a company for the actions of its employees? Companies get sued for their employees' actions all the time.
>It is really stupid to publish the article and discus it.
If you say so. After all, you're discussing it too :-)
A very prominent J2EE vendor did the same thing in a J2EE vendor poll last year.
Let he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone...
A very prominent J2EE vendor did the same thing in a J2EE vendor poll last year. <
... but was it Sun?
If this was some company that was developing add-on services for .NET, then no problem. But what we have here, is a supposedly professional multinational such as Microsoft, indulging in the rather childish act of ballot-stuffing.
However, what is unclear, is whether or not this was a calculated move by the company (in which case it was so poorly executed that you have to wonder if they know ANYTHING about servers at all) or just a handfull of clueless employees, trying to help the mothership.
anybody heard from our friend Greg Leake recently? Wonder what he has to say about this ...
What is the big deal? Simple dejanews search produces:
>Time is running out, just one day remains !
>Vote for BEA in the readers choice awards. Follow the
>first link to cast your vote for all BEA products (takes
>about 1 minute). Follow the second link, to make your
>own individual choices (takes about 10 minutes)
but nobody talks about evil BEA conspiracy ;-)
but nobody talks about evil BEA conspiracy ;-)
Hard to be credible when the competitors have about ten times as many employees :-)
Frankly speaking, these poll surveys are not so important to be discussed. Webservices is still not so mature for anybody to speak about to implement it. Once the concept really gets into the market, then the market decides which one to go for based on the requirements and whether the products offered in the market fits them. This can be J2EE or .NET. Till then, it looks to me like a survey which has a question 'Will bin Laden be captured alive? Yes/No'. If you ask me, it'll be a no; but, there might be so many people who take it so personal (forgetting the practicalities) and for them hunting bin Laden and catching him alive, atleast in the survey gives them lot of mental satisfaction.
So, if Microsoft guys feel great about the bar which shows 90% of the voters go for .Net, why anybody needs to stop them. Anyway, market will show them the real statistics (who knows Micrsoft might even rig them?).
It's well known that polls with self-selected samples are "unscientific", which is a popular media euphemism for "meaningless". This kind of activity is one of many familiar reasons why these on-line polls waste time and dress up nonsense as real information.
Independent "non-online" surveys do report that most companies will stick to what already is proven --- ie. J2EE, and the various app servers from IBM, etc...
What turns me off in disgust is the part about Exchange (I think it is in error, it should be Outlook) sending the e-mail subject and the *username* to the web site when you click on a url in the e-mail. What blew Microsoft's cover must be costing us our privacy. Bolshy bolnoy cal! (speak nadsat droogs?)
with regards to .NET being immature.. I don't think you can compare this with other languages like Java. Java never went through such a huge and long beta period. They never spent as much money,... I'm sure it will succeed. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say that it will be the doom of J2EE. The degree to which it succeeds will rest with how well the developer community embraces it. Although it is nice to see that Microsoft is providing a tonne of useful information on how to use .NET.
And of course to use .NET, you won't need to buy Visual Studio since code can be compiled using the command line. There is already a group out there developing an open source ide for .NET. It seems to me that .NET, Microsoft is trying to take the best pieces of VB and web development and Java OO and put them together in a way that could appease developers from both sides (Java vs. Microsoft).
It's clear that companies like Sun, IBM, BEA, Borland will need to step up their efforts and do things that will make J2EE the right choice.