Sun shifts core Java unit from US to Bangalore, India

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News: Sun shifts core Java unit from US to Bangalore, India

  1. Sun has moved its Java tools and libraries division from its Palo Alto technology centre to Bangalore, India. Sun decided to shift the core work to Bangalore due to three key factors: to optimally use the engineering skill-sets available here, to beat the slowdown and to stay closer to the market.

    Read Sun shifts core Java unit from US to Bangalore

    -Venkatesh

    Threaded Messages (86)

  2. Lets look at this more closely:
    - to optimally use the engineering skill-sets available "here"

    I don't believe this means that there are better developers in India than here.

    - to beat the slowdown and to stay closer to the market
    Closer to which market? Where are the vast majority of companies using Java technology? I would presume in the US.

    The only reason they are moving is so they can hire cheaper labor. Furthermore, normally companies move only non-critical divisions out. And I would think that the units working on J2EE and other server side technologies would be the critical units for Sun at this point. Not the ones working on java.lang, java.io, and java.util and other libraries which simply doing some bug-fixing.
  3. Agree with most of your analysis. Looks like the slowdown in the U.S economy has hit Sun pretty badly and they are looking at all possible ways to cut costs.
    Sadly enough what they don't seem to realise is that they can cut even more costs if they release some control over their source but then again it's their decision.
  4. Maybe it is not 'cheap labor', but 'cheaper labor' and for the same return on product. Make sense to me.
    This is something that I think we will see more of in the future.
    To keep myself valuable to the labor market I do not plan to reduce my rate, but as always I plan to increase my skills. This is my way of handling flux.

    By the way congratulations Bangalore

  5. I agree. Some just don't get it.
  6. Zyljian speaking,

      so I take it you're not going to give up your highly paid America USD salary eh ? vs. getting a chance to work in your own country !? I'm taking it as if you are from India if you salute it !

      I think it's both cheap, and cheaper labor. you have to admit first of all that the rupe doesn't even compare to the USD. I have Indian friends, and they consider themselves millionaires to their peers in India with their avg/overpaid American salaries.
       I think cheap as well. because I haven't met an Indian guy yet who hasn't been more selfish, and more capitalistic than any American I have met in screwing over corporations and end-users by building a shit product, just so they can milk the project by extending the duration in order to keep their ass over here in America and making a USD salary !
       answer me this. are they going to do the same when Sun gives them a project, or a more critical piece of the Java core language once they get their hands on it ? I already know the answer and scenario. it's a Sun management ****-up moving it over there just to look good in a bad US economy. Once India gets a hold of it, fucks it up, and sends it back. then it'll be up to the good ol' American's again to take the heat for the shit work, and fix it ! India is just getting a piece of the US dollar American pie for a short duration, then that's it. you think Sun's corporate management is going to give a shit about India after their fire the dumb-shit who made the bad decision
      they'll just get another guy in, and he'll look even better than the first guy. and then he'll be labeled as the big hero in this country, and they'll move on !
      
      The End !

      Zyljian
     
      (the Java Zen master)
  7. Hey,

    Its not cheap labor. Its delivering equally good software at lower price. That's the advantage of India.

    And the trend has just started. Besides Sun, Nortel, Cisco, Lucent, Oracle, IBM Global Services, Accenture, PWC etc all are increasingly outsourcing their software development requirements to their India Office. But it will take some time until Bangalore truly competes with Silicon Valley and companies start developing their critical things at India. Their is tremendous opportunity and the best will win.

    Manas.
  8.     I've spent a lot of time on business trips outside the US and fact is: cheap labor combined with an existing infrastructure in India, and a fierce competitor like Microsoft, motivated Sun to do something fast. India's infrastructure that has been developing for the past 10+ years by other industries and major companies pouring millions into a concentrated area in India. (India as a country has a lot of serious global issues, and is very unstable)
        The US is the richest country and in the world and because of that most countries outside the US have cheaper labor. (most)
        It's not only India & the US, a lot of European & Us Tech companies are setting up shops in Dublin, because it's cheap labor (compared to the US) with Tax benefits, and an existing tech infrastructure.
         I'm not belittling India, I'm just saying the move by Sun, really had nothing to do with India. If the infrastructure was in a different location, and the labor was cheaper then Inida Sun would then ship, use & teach, smart people for that location.
         So India, my recommendation to you is stay cheap. It's very easy for a Global Company to completely move major tech divisions, regardless of the money spent to develop your India location.
  9. Zyljian speaking,

      Bangalore will never compete with Silicon Valley my
    friend ! believe me, I've worked with Indian people before and they have produced nothing but shit software ! pardon my French !
      I'm a gambling man, and my bet is on the creative people in Silicon Valley vs. the un-innovative, but mocking type of people of India ! If India is so sharp, why don't they develop their own fucking programming language and make it capitalize in the Western hemisphere !? or, even in theiri own country for that matter !
      America's small businesses & large corporations drive the world's economy ! Why do you think so many people from India are over here working to begin with ! why don't they work in their own country !?
      Let me tell you this pal. America is a free society. Now if I wished to work in India as well as my American colleagues, how many H-1 visas & green cards do you think India would offer to us, as America has to the people of India ? my guess is probably less than a handful ! your fucking country was controlled by the British at one time, as ours was. we broke away from them on our own because of our creativity, and hard working ethics. why can't India do the same ? do they have to keep having other countries like the America's carry their weight ? If you can answer that question, then you have your answer as to why you won't win the technology race !

     Peace Out !!

     -Zyljian (the Java Zen master !!)
  10. .......and I second that !

    I must disagree with Kumar and the rest who do NOT support Sun's super intelligent move.

    I definitely beleive that the intellectual capital is strongly concentrated in India (especially Bangalore). I do not work there, but i beleive that not much heard of companies like Pramati(www.pramati.com) are spearheading technology into the future. They have proven what the west CANNOT ! And that means better technical deliverance at fractional cost. West is where the money 'was' and the market 'was'. The east has always been, where the intellect is and will always be. And thats why, Kumar, you, an asian intellectual is needed in the west !

    As of the market, i see the west sinking. It is the turn of the East. Asia has more and more become an important and emergent market. We have even heard a lot of takeovers of western companies by asian biggies. I know of banks in Singapore using J2EE for internal purposes. Thats pretty amazing.

    Critical or non-critical. An office, that offers cheap, fast and works when its clients sleep(if there are any more in the other half of the globe!), is always preferred.

    Hats off to Sun for this good move.

    Its the turn of the asians. Prepare to face the indians and the chinese very very soon.
  11. Pradeep,

    I never knew this site was dedicated to east/west political bashing.

    Just a reality check, the fact remains that most of the technological innovation have taken place here, mentioning pramati.com(nothing against u guys, u doing a great job) doesnt tilt the balance in any way. Period. Though, being from the east(India), i hope they can also come up with new innovations.

    Anyway lets keep this site non-political. And next time please try n make yours-self sound humble. At least, give it a shot.

    Have fun
  12. I think the real discussion should go without pointing fingers and critisizing one another. I believe Sun has made a good decision for whatevern reason they have.

    Silicon valley companies spent millions of dollars (in fact wasted lot of money in the last couple of years on the hype of startups or on something else) When the time has come they realized the value of money and started thinking wisely.

    Sun and many other companies which has long vision of service to the world through their products has to take this kind of steps to get the world going !

    What do you say guys?
  13. ......and i third that !

    Apologies, if it ended up too political. Was'nt meant to be so. Kumar must answer this question. He took Sun's move very personally. Everybody seems very scared nowadays.

    As of technical innovations, a 300 year head-start is the only advantage "there". Considering the fact that India is just 50 years old, and, Sun, a little younger, making its choice over the two, proves the point. Sun definitely has people more intelligent, more experienced than you, me and Kumar.

    I suggest that we wait and see how time speaks. If Sun decides to move back after a couple of years, Well....I am very wrong.

    Sun has made some mistakes. And definitely, this move CANNOT be one of them ! Because, it is a fact, that one learns from mistakes.
  14. For an international company to 'split' it's reliance between different offices is not new.
    Also, remember that Sun is not moving Java as a whole to India, it is moving it's requirements for it's core libraries to India.

    These core libraries, are a mainstay of any Java programmer, and these require optimizations, etc. Remember that many programmers from India have backgrounds in Engineering etc. - areas where optimization and speed-squeezing are as equally as beneficial as in the Collections Framework.

    Yes money is an issue, but then again you pay to get the Work permits and ship people over in the first place, it makes just as much sense to get them set up in their own country as bring them over to the States

    All I'm saying is - congratulations Bangalore, but Sun is a multinational company - multi-office responsibilites are nothing new - Sun has people in Ireland with reponsibilities for RMI, whilst Ann Wolrath still works in the States

    Calum
  15. Good 4 Sun.[ Go to top ]

    India has a great higher education system which always provides great foundation for any R&D work so it's greatly beneficial for the whole Java movement besides giving economics the key role.

    There is nothing wrong with competition in software development markets, keeps the fat down. Granted rates/salaries in Western hemesphere will be affected, the ones who can deliver will have work.

    There is still a lot of work in US/Canada/Europe that can be done "in-house." Given the current economics,companies will start moving more projects overseas. And as usual when ine gets carried away, in some cases it will backfire at them.

    I'm sure there are hidden costs that will be discovered, not just "we can hire 5 guys in Bangalore for a price of one here." US still has the biggest economy so regardless of the administration does with the budget for a while it will remain so. Somebody has to be intimately familiar with the end users requirements and that is usually where the breakdown occurs.

    I would consider outsourcing as 'trim-down' instead of 'do-away'

    BTW, guys, don't kid yourself thinking that nobody else in the world is watching India in its IT success story. It's circle of life.

  16. Think about Henri Ford...[ Go to top ]

    Remember Henri Ford who sell his product to his employee...

    Did they think at Sun that by reducing their employee mass in West they will restore the West economy ?
    Where is Java Technologies primary used ? I think this is in West...and West company mainly sells to West people...by reducing the standard of living in West you just kill your market in the long term...

    I know this a simple point of view but it can be good to think about that...
    I think that, as usual, companies act only for the short term...
    But I'm happy that competent people in India get good job to do, even if it's thanks to low cost..

    My 2 cent of euros :-)
  17. hey hey keep it down and check your history.
    You could have said that India had 2000+ years advantage on Europe (together with China, Persia etc.) and managed to waste it superbly.
    But that's not the point - not any east/west bashing.
    In the same line you could say that there's a lot of ex-Soviet union people who are superb, COL is not much higher there than in India etc. etc. Who knows when they will come up as an intelectual superpower again? Not to mention China, that's churning out Java developers as there was no tomorrow.

    As someone else has said, it's the quality of education. At the moment, India has realized that that's where they have to invest if they want to move on - and I say good on them!
    But again, it's not all too great, as I've seen examples of Indian companies, that, though they had brilliant people, were hamstrung from the start by their management incompetence, blind reliance on a process ("we are CMM level 5 certified!") and nil flexibility.
    iPlanet have they support division in India for a while, and to deal with them is a real pain - quite a few people there seem to have no clue.

    So, to sum it up, you can get good and bad everywhere, and everything has its advantages and disadvantages. If you know what you're doing, then moving your operations into a place with good infrastructure, skilled & educated people and relatively lower COL is a good decision (see Ireland/Finland in Europe). But if you move it there just because of that, you can get badly burned.

    Regards,
    Vlad
  18. I do not want to get into the east vs west political mud slinging but I do agree that most of the innovations have happened in the west and it will be wrong to say that MOST of them are because of immigrants. I think Indians started comign to US in last 30 years and mostly in software in last 10 years so all the credit should not go to asians for the advances in software technology. In spite of lot of companies shifting lot of work (even quality work) outside US, people from east are still desperate to come to the USA for money, lifestyle and freedom.
    So stop bashing USA.

    Harsh

  19. Don't be too skeptical about what Sun has done. Its quite natural for a company to move from US to India at this point of time. Cheap Labour doesn't mean cheap quality. And, being in US doesn't mean that one does only highly-skilled jobs. Might be, the upto date technology is more meant to US, but that doesn't mean that, that support is coming from somewhere else in the world, be it Bangalore or Kualalumpur.

    Its time to shed away old beliefs like working in US means high-quality jobs. Be realistic buddy!!!!
  20. Yes, and what happens a few years down the track when the WTO gets it way and we have one homogenous world market, with equal cost of living everywhere?

    You can only exploit COL differences for so long. Eventually poor countries work their way up the ladder.

    There are some smart people in India, but there are also smart people in say, the Phillipines or Kenya, if they prove cheaper than India does that mean Sun will move there next?

  21. There are some smart people in India, but there are also >smart people in say, the Phillipines or Kenya, if they >prove cheaper than India does that mean Sun will move >there next?

    If Kenya/Phillipines can match Bangalore in terms of manpower/infrastructure/etc. at significantly lower cost they will defintely do it. . That's how capitalism works.
    (I am not a economist!)
    cheers
    Ravi
  22. Zyljian speaking,

      no dude, don't worry ! Sun is just doing this, because they have the typical corporate dumb ass management trying to look good in a bad U.S. economic time is all ! they'll put some of their investments over in India for a while, then they'll **** it up, then it'll be right back over here in America to fix the bugs, and make it work right again. that's usually how India people work with bad U.S. Corporate management bullshit decisions.
      it's just a phase, or trend in the bad economy. once the U.S. economy lifts, they'll tell India to go to hell. hahahhaah

      don't worry about competing Kenya, Phillipines either. those people are basically one step up from a tribal community. where India isn't too far up from them really if you think about it, compared to America. and with the small businesses, and corporations of America driving the worlds economy, those 3rd world countries, and bigger countries like India won't last long.

       just looks good on paper is all for new senior level corporate management to look good for their performance bonus awards, and also to justified their overpaid high 6-digit salaries that could feed about a third of the people in Kenya/Phillipines, and probably a quarter of the people of India ! hahahahaha

      Peace Out bro !!

      -Zyljian (the Java Zen master)
  23. Let us not waste our precious time arguing on such issues, the final judgment will be done by "Time"

    Thanks,

    Abishek
  24. Zyljian speaking,

      don't worry about it bro ! it'll never happen ! how many Chinese, and Indian people do you know who can make a decision and stick with it ! hahahahahah

       that's why their countries are so fucked up to begin with ! I know both Indian and Chinese people. they have to rely on Americans in order to see the job through to the end, and make it work flawlessly !

       you have to realize, American's are pioneers, and sons of expert craftsmen & artisians from the Euros. our technique's, artisian skills, and craftsmenship have gotten this far in time, they'll carry us on in the future !

       by the time India & China picks up on Java, we'll be on to bigger and better things by then, basically making them obsolete ! they can't do anything on their own without mocking us !

       so, sit back, have a beer or a coke, and give them the middle finger ! and place your bets on America, and Silicon Valley, because we are untouchable because we are conscientious !

      Peace Out, bro !!

      -Zyljian, (the Java Zen master)
  25. First these companies lobby like crazy to get lots of H1B visas whichs floods the market with programmers and then they move jobs out of the country. That's great.
  26. Zyljian speaking,

      A-men brotha !

      now riddle me this:

      How many H-1 visas, and green cards do you think India will offer to American citizens wishing to work in India, like America has to India citizens wishing to not only work, but go to college in the good ol' U.S. ?

      If you can count them all within 2 fingers you're probably getting close !

       I feel it's time to speak up, in order to let them know what we are really about ! they don't know what they are up against. our forefathers were skilled artisians, and craftsmen, very creative and innovative people. how about the Indians ? my history books can recall anything innovative about them.. ? hahahahahaah

       so, how and the hell are they going to compete with us ?
     
      like most projects people in the U.S. from India work on, they turn it into garbage, then give the end result to American workers to support and take the heat on ! they we get the double whammy for taking the heat because it doesn't work right, and then the additional task of fixing it with the screwed up logic, and undocumented unstandardized methodologies, and then we get less pay for it because it doesn't work right !

       how are they going to compete against that ? it takes an artisian, or craftsmen just to untangle the mess and get it standardized and working again !

      Peace Out !!
      
      Zyljian (the Java Zen master)


      
  27. I suspect this is the first of many announcements we can expect to hear from several companies as they increasingly seek to improve their ROI by moving a fair amount of work overseas.
  28. This is definately an industry trend. I lost my job 2 weeks ago after my former employer, a large B2B player, announced the movement of jobs to Bangalore. Despite what you may think, the jobs being moved are not just maintenance jobs. The company moved many architects and key players back to India to seed the development organizations over there.
  29. "
    This is definately an industry trend. I lost my job 2 weeks ago after my former employer, a large B2B player, announced the movement of jobs to Bangalore. Despite what you may think, the jobs being moved are not just maintenance jobs. The company moved many architects and key players back to India to seed the development organizations over there.
    "

    Sorry to hear that you lost your job ... were folks given the choice of keeping the job if they moved to India? I'm not sure how many non-Indians would've accepted this counter-offer, but I'm just curious if this (ie: moving core development jobs overseas) is the shape of things to come ...
  30. This is great news! Congratulations B'lore. I totally disagree that cheap labor as the only reason behind this move of Sun.

    I guess it is the search for low cost and high quality service/product that anyone looks for.

  31. I am an American so maybe my opinion is not necessarily objective, but....

    Why in spite of America's supposed shoddy schools, arrogance, and overpaid/lazy/undisciplined workers has it come up with a disproportionate number of technological breakthroughs in the past 100 years?

    These innovations have not only come from natural born citizens, but many immigrants as well.

    I guess if I were a high level executive I would look at things like hourly cost, etc, but even as an engineer I know there is a large aspect of research and development that is not quantitative.

    Maybe my presumption of American technological dominance is incorrect (an English man once told me that our 'World News Tonight' only spends about 5 percent of its time talking about international events) or maybe things are about to change, but do moves like this one run the risk of being 'penny wise, pound foolish'?
  32. Garry,

    In fact most of the innovations are being done by immigants only.
  33. Hi Garry,

    >Why in spite of America's supposed shoddy schools, arrogance, and overpaid/lazy/undisciplined workers has it come up with a disproportionate number of technological breakthroughs in the past 100 years?

    common..this is not correct
    I am from India and I went to schools here(USA) and they are great. People from all over the world dream to go to your world class schools like MIT, Stanford, ...to name of few of a long list of great schools.

    >undisciplined workers
    not at all...you guys have an excellent perspective towards work

    >lazy..
    the key is to work smart... it does't matter
    you probably need to work overseas for a while be to realize this.

    so it's NOT really DISPROPORTIONATE

    Hari
  34. I don't think its just "cheap labour"..there are many other factors that contribute...I think its just a strategic decision to move the stuff..One important factor is the time difference...California is 12.5 hrs behind india ..so by the time its morning there in US the deliverables will be ready..i heard even Oracle is doing the same.
  35. "California is 12.5 hrs behind india ..so by the time its morning there in US the deliverables will be ready"

    I think that in software development, the closer, the better.

    In many development methodologies (especially agile ones) an important tenet is having continuous contact among team members, in such scenario having so fractured time zones could prove to be a real disavantage.

    Besides, a job that can be completed in just 12.5 hours doesn't sound like the long-haul, strategic kind of task that most serious outsourcerers would prefer.
  36. Wow. I love Java, but as time goes on, my impression of Sun fades. I guess the Americans got bored of developing new Java technology? It sounds like some pretty hardcore stuff is being shifted outside the U.S. Not just io, lang, etc.

    Sun. Just another large international corporation.

    p.s. What is a technocrat? (referring to the article)
  37. I'll give it 2 years before it moves back. Nothing against Bangalore ( hey I've been there and it's a wonderful place ), but does anyone believe that multi-site development really works on an international scale? It's almost always a false economy. It won't be long before the company ends up bickering and finger pointing and ultimately "preserving company integrity by merging both Indian and US business units back to their natural home in Silicon valley" < or somesuch spin >
  38. About three years ago, the CEO of the company I work for said, "throughout history world power has moved west and is currently seated in the U.S. The continuation of this trend takes the next seat of power to either China or India." Hummm...
  39. It all comes down to supply and demand. Right now, it makes financial sense for SUN to establish a presence in India. I'm no economist ( I'd love to hear from one -- anyone out there qualified? ), but it seems to me that comparative advantages based on labor cost, real estate prices, and other hard-core money-saving issues balance themselves out over time. In other words, the best thing that can happen for American workers upset over the immediate loss of jobs is for MORE companies to move to India --- when this happens, there will be more demand for local talent there, and the local talent will demand more money. Also the Indian real estate will cost more and more.
    Then suddenly a few years later, relocating elsewhere sounds like a great idea based on economic issues... and so on and so on...
    The world is extremely small when it comes to business. Economics are just some of the reasons why companies are headquartered where they are. There are other factors as well. At some points in time, ecomonic issues are more important than the others.
    The bottom line is that if you as an IT person are flexible and able to try new things ( perhaps moving to a new country? ) -- hey, the sky's the limit, you'll never be out of a job.
    Today it's Bangalore, tomorrow it's Dublin, Vancouver, Beijing, and then back to California, Washington, New York, etc etc... makes no difference. It will strange to see the day that countries like Canada, India, China, Ireland, Czech Republic, etc etc start getting hundreds of thousands of immigrants pouring into their country on immigrant Visas, but there's no reason why that won't happen too!
  40. I was going to reply with a very similar post. Very insightful and true. There is a constant force pushing towards equilibrium. Like you said, it moves to India. The amount of work vs. the amount of qualified help, as more companies start spending on tech again, will go throught the full range; abundance, just right, and then not enough. It's at the point where there is not enough people to fill the staffing requirements that things need to be pushed oversees or immigrants brought in.

    In the meantime, if all the major players decide it's time to pack bags, there is still work for the american programmer in the medium to small business arena.

    In the long run, technology feeds on it self and soon there will be not enough to sustain in in so-and-so country.

    Just my thoughts
  41. Ted your are right, Its just simple economics (demand and supply). In recent years there was enough funds and less experts in this field, now its the other wayround. So companies start tightening their belts. And moreover multinational companies are not socially or nationaly obliged to remain in a certain region or country. Profit is their ultimate goal.

    Right now India has a large pool of qualified and experienced english speaking IT manpower,(naturally for a fraction of an IT expert in US or Europe) which is still growing. There are other candiates like Russia, Brazil and China who are envying India and trying hard overnight to catch up. So the war wont be over in a few years time.

    Lets not be surprised or prejudiced by what has happened, this is what globalisation eventually boils down to. Instead of cursing Sun or the Indians or who ever it may be, be flexible, talented and start thinking hard how you can revert or control this phenomena.
  42. Sunil,

      Yes you're right -- when it comes down to it, you must be the person controlling your environment, not the other way around. And you're right about other countries trying to duplicate India's success.
      But I think one of the things we don't consider is the fact that emerging economies like India are not going to be the best kept secret for too long. Market forces will push India to become less and less attractive as time goes on. There is only so much concessions that the Indian government will give before justifiably wanting something more in return. I have never been to India, but from what I hear there is a lot of poverty there. If this is why the IT labor force is a lot cheaper ( ie. people will be more realistic with salary demands when they see children begging for food every day ), mark my words this WILL change. As more and more companies move in, India's situation will improve for the better. Less poverty and better working conditions undoubtedly equals higher salary demands and so on and so forth.
    At any rate, it's good to see all countries of the world benefitting from US capitalistic success. This is what it's all about!
  43. Zyljian speaking,

      come on man ! how many H-1 visas do you actually think India is going to give to U.S. citizens !? if you can count them on more than one hand, then you're probably dreaming !

      besides, why and the hell would you want to live over there ? it would be like living in Mexico, but maybe just a little cleaner. hahahahahaah no offense to Tijuana. hahahaah

       how do you know that it may not be because of economics, but just a new division senior level manager wanting to look good by cutting costs, and making a name for his ass kissing self ? that's the reality in the corporate world my man !
      they don't give a shit about economics ! they're worried about if they will get a performance bonus award by justifying their salaries by doing something that sounds good on paper !

       how many Indian guys do you know that haven't fucked something up ? I don't know too many ! they'll screw it up, then throw it back on the people of America's lap to fix and make it work right again !

       I tell you what, I wouldn't by a technical software package made in India ! look at half of Microsoft's stuff man ! their presence in India is pretty big, and you know how many patches, and bugs, and fixes they come out with ! but it makes them money, and that's the bottom line all they care about ! they couldn't give two shits about American programmers or if they have a job ! they're too worried about their new lexus, or mercedes for looking good on paper !
       if they really wanted to help India, they would fire that manager, keep the technology over here where it belongs for Americans to keep an eye on for stability of the technology, and not crapifying it ! and then just donote the god dam money to India to help them out with the basic necessities they really need like food and medical supplies ! then that in effect would be economics working, because our tax dollars would decrease from the govt. helping them out, and instead having the shitty private greedy corporations with the deep pockets and under-qualified senior level management
    fork over the dough to make the country a better place !

       that's my two cents worth !

      thanks for your time !

       Peace Out !!

       Zyljian (the Java Zen master)
  44. hi Zy....whatever,

    first thing!! keep this site free of such four letter words and maintain some decorum.

    the genius of Indian software intellect does not need to be explained any further to any guy who has worked in software, for the industry and the administration knows very well about it.

    dude!!! hang on to your heart carefully as you are about to see more such exodus of American Corporations to India.

    you have't probably read enough of history. may be Garry was partly right in his observation about the Arrogance. But don't worry Garry! it's just a neglizible percentage. BTW, I think this site is not for discussing the history and evolution of countries/civilization.

    relax..
  45. Wow ... LSD ... it's not just for breakfast anymore!
  46. I do not know the reason behind this stupid and arrogant discussion. Hey Z..., whats the matter? I think this site is for Java Developers...people who love this beautiful language. I do not think we should indulge in this discrimination. As long as Java lives we must stick together and develop; it should not matter where Sun shifts its base to. ...India, US or anywhere!
    Long Live Java!(just love it)
  47. Greetings

    As the engineering manager for the team known as "Tools And Core Libraries", which makes up javac, javadoc, javah, javap, java.lang, java.io/nio, java.util, java.math, and some smaller bits of the Core Java platform, this article was a shock to me. It's not completely true, and some facts have been distorted and twisted to imply things that didn't happen.

    It turns out that my team is NOT moving to Bangalore. It never was the intention, nor even considered.

    What did happen was that the team who tests my team's work added a few people in Bangalore over what they had, and one person from the local team is moving to Bangalore to reside with the rest of the team. Dale Ferrario, the director of Product Engineering, heads up that organization. Product Engineering is a different organization than Development Engineering. In a private email to me, Dale indicated that
    he was misquoted in the article, as he was talking about testing only.

    I'll leave it at that. But if you are going to be at JavaOne 2002 this year in San Francisco, and you are interested in the Tools & Core Libraries, come to our BoF, currently scheduled for Tuesday evening at 7pm. Check the JavaOne schedule if they decide to move it. It's BoF 1352. You'll be able to meet me, most of my team (not based in Bangalore), listen to our presentation, and ask us questions.


    Andrew
  48. :-) LOL, this folds up the discussion really well.

  49. And I was hoping Andrew would recommend a good hindi book, anyhow I look forwarding to meeting the team at JavaOne with a box of samosas and hot pepper sauce just to rub it in.




  50. There's more to come:

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020213/tc_nm/tech_india_investments_dc_1

    U.S. High-Tech Firms Ramp Up Indian Operations
    Wed Feb 13, 5:35 AM ET

    By Narayanan Madhavan

    BANGALORE (Reuters) - Two U.S. semiconductor companies announced significant expansion of technology centers in India on Wednesday, in a trend once fueled by booming demand and now led by the need to cut wage costs due to a downturn.

    QuickLogic Corp. , which makes advanced silicon that gives chips higher flexibility at lower costs, and Cypress Semiconductor , which designs circuits that power telecoms equipment, both said Indian operations were crucial for their future.

    QuickLogic said it would hire 18 engineers from a unit in privately-held Sasken Communication Technologies Ltd., which was working for the chip maker for the past two years, and boost the number to 30-40 by the end of the year.

    Five years from now, the staff could run into hundreds, Thomas Hart, QuickLogic's chairman and chief executive officer, told a news conference.

    "Cost is not the primary reason. It is the talent," Hart said of the planned expansion, adding that software was becoming a key component inside advanced microchips.

    The company, which did not give investment details, also said it would continue its ties with Sasken because it owned significant intellectual property in communications.

    Hart said his company was a late entrant to India because it was a "relatively small" company, confirming a trend that even smaller U.S. technology companies had put Indian operations firmly on their menu.

    Cypress said it planned to invest $15 million over the next two years to triple the staff from the current 100 in its six-year-old India center, the company's biggest worldwide.

    "As Cypress Semiconductor grows rapidly to address the fast growing broadband market, additional resources are required to be deployed in order to rapidly develop leading edge products," said David Rees, managing director of the company's international design centers.

    COLLEGES ABOUND

    Officials of the state of Karnataka, whose capital is Bangalore, said last year that one foreign company was setting up shop in Bangalore every week.

    The state has about 80 government-approved engineering colleges which churn out programmers by the thousands every year, supplying workers for the talent-hungry tech industry.

    Bangalore, described as India's Silicon Valley, now has about 950 companies involving an investment of at least $1.6 billion, and 46 of them are related to semiconductor design.

    About 30 U.S. tech leaders have operations in Bangalore.

    Chip maker Texas Instruments pioneered a U.S. surge into India back in 1984, seven years before India started an investor-friendly reforms program.

    Now, chip design firm Cadence Design System Inc , leading chipmakers Intel Corp. and Motorola Inc. , and a host of high-tech companies including Microsoft Corp. , Sun Microsystems Inc. and IBM Corp. have between them thousands of engineers working in India.

    Other U.S. companies have been cautious, using Indian service companies like Satyam Computer Services and Infosys Technologies to house dedicated software centers within their fold.

    Satyam has 70 percent of its 250 clients from the United States, including General Electric Co. and Ford Motor Co. . Infosys gets 70 percent of its revenue from the U.S. and houses centers for Cisco Systems Inc. and Nortel Networks Corp.
  51. Competently managed companies make a profit and pay their employees well. For just about any software company, R&D is around 20%, so getting cheap programmers is a false economy.

    The analog with auto workers doesn't hold; programmers aren't in a factory, stuffing CD's and software manuals into boxes. That's the comparison you would have to make.
  52. IBM's BREW ?? Qualcomm owns BREW and NOT IBM.
  53. Edgar,

    I agree with u......

    The bottle-neck for fast growth is that there are just 24 hrs in a day , if the west & east work together , one could have a faster pace of work.

    eg.

    When US works , it is night in India....

    When India works , it is night in US....

    So effectively the work cycle is not 8 hrs a day but around 16-20 hrs a day , I say 16-20 hrs because I know in the East young people who graduate out of schools work 10-12 hrs a day.

    So with the synergies put together , we could theoreticaly have a far greater output....

    Also it is a fact that 3rd world countries have a much less per capital income and are more populated than the west , therefore the labour force is but of course cheaper.

    As an example if a Software Engineer takes 100K\annum in the United States , you could hire 10 Software Engineers back in India\East for the same pay scale.

    And with the pressure Nasdaq\NYSE puts on the public listed companies where they have to beat street expectation each quarter , cost cutting stands as one of the top priorities to survive.

    Therefore one solution is to move Enginnering , QA , Tech support etc. to East , you open a call ticket in the United States , the person answering you might be from the east.

    How does it matter to an organization as long as the quality is being maintained.

    My personal opinion is that Sun is just the start , In the next few years , East will become a supplier and West the consumer.
  54. As far as I'm concerned, I'm surprised that your average American can afford to live in or near Palo Alto...
  55.   In free market economies goods and services are produced at lowest possible unit cost. For tradable goods and services, companies are forced to seek lowest cost of production, otherwise they would be out of business. However one has to be very careful with the definition of the unit costs, which includes not only labor costs, but also utilities, transportation, teleconmmunication, rent, regulatory expenses etc. So wages in India or China may be low but but total cost of production may end up being higher than many developed countries.
      For example in many developing countries costs related to the underdeveloped infrastructure, corruption and cultural attitutes renders many investment plans unattractive. Despite the rhetoric of 1 billion Indian or Chinese consumers many multinational companies are yet to make a profit.
      In the spefic case of software development, labor costs constitute a considerable portion of the total cost. A country like India with its highly educated and english speaking workforce would gain market share, provided total costs are competetive. We may see more and more development shifted to the lower cost producers like India, China, provided TOTAL COSTS are lower than developed countries.

     On the other hand thriving software industry in India will push up salaries for skilled workers and wage differential between Banglore and Silicon Valley will become narrrower. Higher wages for developers in India will increase supply of programmers putting downward pressure on wages but also drain of best developer to the developed countries for the jobs which could not be outsourced, putting upward pressure to the wages. So the net effect depends to the relative increases in supply and demand. Also it should be noted that nominal wages may never come to the same level even in the equilibrium conditions due to the disparities in the cost of living.

     The net effect of these trends on global scale is positive, meanining more software production at a reduced cost and better wages for developers in developing countries. However the effects on developers in developed countries may or may not be positive. Lets analyse these effects:

      More production shifted overseas meand less jobs for developers, which put downward pressure, which makes job of developers less enviably so domestic supply of programmers may be reduced thus putting upward pressure on local wages. Skilled developers coming from developing countries increase supply thus putting downward pressure on local wages. Finally gains made through outsourcing makes companies more profitable thus increasing demand for software production.

     As you can see microeconomic analysis may get quite involved. The effects on aggregate are positive but for the developers in developed countries may or may not be positive. So the complaints from H1 visas may be understandable.

    kaan uran
  56. I think the important thing is to take a long view of events like this.
    It's easy, as an currently-between-engagements American, to see a headline like, "Sun moves to India" and get upset about a job I didn't get.
    In reading the article, I noticed that it only involved 150 jobs. And that it was from an Indian newspaper.

    Recessions are cyclical events and every one has ended and led to even further growth. This one hit the technology industry particularly hard because of flaws in the way companies raise funds through public offerings and an the excesses of the internet boom.
    In spite of the recesssion there's still a forecast for
    on the order of 100,000 new technology jobs in the United States every year well off into the distant future. The internet is not going to go away. The jobs won't be filled just by Americans. Nor will it all be handled by offshore development or importing foreign workers. It'll be a combination of those factors and more. And it will be driven by market and what's profitable.

    One other thought, regarding H1B visas, if the goal is to fill jobs with qualifed workers, why not give technology experts more priority in applying for permanant immigration status as opposed to bringing temp workers in.
    If we're going to steal another countries best and brightest steal them for good.
    That will elimate the current situation where many companies are hiring H1B visa people because they can pay them less. That drives down the market for everyone.

  57. Time will tell[ Go to top ]

    1. This is from an Indian newspaper. Take that for what it is worth...

    2. If this is a mistake, then Sun will pay dearly for it. Unfortunately, the Java dependent world will also pay a price.

    3. Software development requires massive communication bandwidth. I have not had the greatest experience with offshore development for this reason.
  58. Interesting thread.

    Last year I worked for a dot-com/in-house consulting company that had a focus in e-health care. Needless to say they were having problems. At any rate, the hourly billing rate was 180 bucks an hour. Company based in Ohio.

    Now my guess is that if a client wants to develop a system which is going to be built at the consultants site with occasional trips to and from the client's base, why would they want to pay 180 an hour, per developer for such a service?

    Why not go to India or China or Russia or wherever and spend 1/10 of the cost? I couldn't understand why companies would fork over all of that money just so a software system could be dropped off at their door 6 months later. If an equally good system could be developed in India or Russia for a fraction of the cost, why not do it? Eventually the market picked up on this and the dot-com's market began to shrink. This eventually led to mass lay-offs at the company.

    I really believe that over the next 5 years the US programmer's job prospects are going to shrink in the same way the US auto-workers and US Steel workers job prospects shrank. International competition will force large IT departments to reorganize along these lines. As long as countries like China and Russia and India keep producing a glut of educated engineers, there is going to be cost incentives for multinationals to leverage the lower cost of foreign labor.

    I think the one thing that is holding this back full scale is the tight integration between some companies business and their IT departments. My current company is one where the programmers are constantly on-site and in touch with the users. I can't imagine them sending all of the stuff to india or china. Just wouldn't work.

    The other factor holding this trend back for now, but not for long IMO, is the overhead and legal complexities of doing this sort of thing. I would imagine that there are alot of complexities involved in moving part of an IT dept. offshore. Part of that is dealing with another foreign government with its own set of laws and regualtions and corruption, etc.

  59. A good decision by SunMicrosystems. They can get cheap labour which could be very cost effective,and they can explore a newly emerging market(which is a bit small now but will play a measure role in the future IT Industry),because the IT market is growing rapidly in South East Asia and Sub-continent,and the areas like Pakistan and India are undoubtly producing the Best Brains in the world.
  60. I'm a J2EE developer working out of Bangalore and
    I think the move by Sun is something in synch with
    the current economic situation and this will help them
    in a great way to sail smoothly through the tough times.

    One thing I'm sure of is that developers in India is
    capable of everything...

    Hats off to Sun for their bold move.


  61. "Best Brains in the world...", "capable of everything..."

    Oh come on people!. Lets gets some humility first.

    As I see it, back when the new world was found and the Industrial Revolution was in full swing, immigrants from all over the world flocked to where the opportunities existed (especially the US). Irrigation "Engineers", Highway "Engineers", Structural "Engineers" were needed in large numbers. In lay terms, these "Engineers" were ditch diggers, bridge builders and construction workers. Nothing wrong with that. I am not slighting these professions in any manner. Simply stating that these were requirements of the time that had to be met. Those that there were willing to work these jobs had the opportunity to do so if they were willing to immigrate and work hard. Many thrived and some found other opportunities that ultimately led them to fame and fortune.

    Now it seems, we have an Information Revolution going on. Being what it is, the work force does not have to be physically present at a location to complete the job. It makes a lot of sense to find the labor, where ever they are, with the skill to complete the necessary ditch-digging, paving, painting, bridge-building jobs of the Information World. These jobs are now done by Software "Engineers". Again, I am not slighting the profession, simply taking a view point that there is a lot plumbing and wiring types of work that need to be done in an expedient and economical manner to meet the demands of the time. Some of it is creative and innovative work, some of it is just mundane. I cannot fault Sun for doing what they are doing. It probably makes a lot of business sense for them. Good for them, and good for the Software professionals that will benefit from that move.

    Categorically annointing people of certain ethnicity as best brains and wonder workers is just not right. If that is the case, all the innovation has to come from that
    part, and that part alone, of the world. So, lets not kid ourself into thinking that a certain group is somehow a better breed, a cut above the rest, just because they happen to be software programmers that know how to write EJBs amongst other things.

    I'll get off my soap box now.

    Good day!.
  62. Actually, we Canadians have been innovating in Silicon Valley, and other places in the US for quite some time on H1B visas. (A few decide to move there permanently.)

    Then typically we come home with our US dollars and continue working on our software startups up here (after paying a swack of Canadian tax.) We're invisible, we look like Americans, but the careful observer will catch our profuse apologizies.

    We also have infiltrated not just your hockey teams, but your film and music industries too. Beware Americans, it is not just your programmers who are infiltrated with foreign nationals, but virtually ever profession.

    Finally a reminder, that both America and Canada are made up of immigrants, and always have been. Hats off to India not just getting a few testing jobs on the Java core API, but for getting a huge amount of business in IT in the last decade by a lot of global IT companies. In N.A. we'll just have to work harder and smarter to stay competitive.
  63. Actually, we Canadians have been innovating in Silicon Valley, and other places in the US for quite some time on H1B visas. (A few decide to move there permanently.)

    Then typically we come home with our US dollars and continue working on our software startups up here (after paying a swack of Canadian tax.) We're invisible, we look like Americans, but the careful observer will catch our profuse apologies.

    We have infiltrated not just your hockey teams, but your film and music industries too. Beware Americans, it is not just your programmers who are intermixed with foreign nationals, but virtually ever profession.

    Finally a reminder that both America and Canada are made up of immigrants, and always have been. Hats off to India not just getting a few testing jobs on the Java core API, but for getting a huge amount of business in IT in the last decade by a lot of global IT companies. In N.A. we'll just have to work smarter and harder to stay competitive.
  64. hi all,

    First of all we developers should not fight issues like this. This is all corporate bullshit. They will do anything to acheive their means.They wiil evene go to Alaska and Sahara desert if they find engineers willing to work there.

    l'mee shed some light on this Sun issue....it is common sense..just tell me .. how can u expect some one to just shift their operation in some other land unless they are sure that they will generate a Quality Product? You need Proof of concept. Let's face it ...India is way far behind in R&D/inovaitons in Software Engg. Building some thing like Infosys/Wipros does not mean that India is on a "Reliable" software map.Tell me is there any hardware equuivalent to Infosys in India.Tell me any product which is truly Indian. Just see where does revenue of these companies come from .It is Services ...India doess not have likes of Oracle , Sun ,Cisco in their own land ...so to assume that Indian's will get the best of breed work for themselves is pure bullshit.India still have a long way to go and prove .and to stay competitive!!..but doing and proving in India is another challenge!!


    One more thing ...about talent....I believe "All engineers are same anywhere and everywhere" ..because engineering epitomizes creativity which is same across all lines and borders. What's left is what one gets and you have no or little control over that.


    best==>
    pb
  65. Hey prashant bhatt,
    Where are you living man?.
    Do you know who are all the most valuble
    professinals
    at BEA, IBM, SUN, Oracle, SAP, even M$ or
    just name any reputed IT corps.
    Contact me offline if you have no clue.

    Prabu
    prabu_7 at yahoo dot com

  66. Hi Prabu,

    Prabu: "Where are you living man?. Do you know who are all the most valuble professinals at BEA, IBM, SUN, Oracle, SAP, even M$ or just name any reputed IT corps. Contact me offline if you have no clue."

    Look, major truths like that should be posted here where we can all benefit from it. Please do tell us how all the most valuable "professinals" are of a certain race or live in a certain country.

    For all these years I've been thinking that smart hard-working people as well as lazy-azz good-for-nothings can come from anywhere, so I expect that you are going to finally set me straight, and hopefully offend about 95% of the world while you do it. ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
  67. Hi Prabu Swami.

    Just bcuz they gave Indians opportunities doesnt mean that we Indians r the best. We come to US for the money and fortunately for us, they have the opportunities.

  68. "Sun shifts core Java unit from US to Bangalore, India"

    Get on with your life. This news is not as interesting as many of you thought.

    The discussion here is taking us nowhere. On this news-portal, discuss only those things that will work towards improving human life everywhere through computing methods.

    What happened to the American Work Culture? You are out of jobs doesn't mean you have time in the whole world to discuss trivial matters. Just forget about this news and move on.
  69. As a member of a society in between the East and the West (Turkey, with an Eastern legacy but looking into a Western future and paying a price), I think I can be objective.

    The Americans are not losing that many jobs. Wait till you see how VB guys go with .NET...

    The Indian developers I worked with were consistently hard working people that took pride in their work.

    Most of the developers in Bangalore were once in the US, developing applications for the many small-to-medium enterprises that were trying to turn .COM. Remember them in the trenches? They were disposed with the collapse of the .COM businesses. B2B means "Back to Bangalore" for most of them.

    And finally, "cheaper labor" might not be what Sun is targetting. You could actually have more people working on Java for the same amount of money Sun puts out annually and that's not a bad thing.
  70. I don't think Sun is really to concerned about any of those lame excuses, truth is their stock is selling a $9 and this will make the stock holders happy, drive the stock price back up. I bet many Americans will remember that when America needed the jobs, during a reccesion, Sun sent the work to India.

    Thanks for hanging in with us Sun, maybe it's time to dump the Sun stock and invest into IBM.

  71. After searching on google, I can't find any related article about this event. Could someone give more information?

    Luoh Ren-Shan
  72. "Sun shifts core Java unit from US to Bangalore, India"

    Get on with your life. This news is not as interesting as many of you thought.

    The discussion here is taking us nowhere. On this news-portal, discuss only those things that will work towards improving human life everywhere through computing methods.

    What happened to the American Work Culture? You are out of jobs doesn't mean you have time in the whole world to discuss trivial matters. Just forget about this news and move on.
  73. " improving human life everywhere through computing methods"
    You can't avoid social issues and how they will play a major role in developing computer methods, and technologies. In an ideal situation this would not an issue, borders and culture do play a role in today's capital society. The fact is that Sun's decision will affect an industry and may NOT improve human life everywhere through computing methods.
       Just as the automotive industry was affected in the early 80's. We are now finally seeing the affects of that move on the automobile industry when there are only two major car manufactures that have developed 'hybrid' cars for mass production.
      We as developers don't control the technology and the improvement of it, SUN & Microsoft do: we just use it.
  74. One More .. Please[ Go to top ]

    I don't think we are understanding the situation quite well.
    IMHO, Sun is moving the maintainence and
    bug fixing work of Java Tools out in India.
    It is a standard practice for MNC (typicallly in case of India)
    to say that they do R&D at there offshore development center but
    what they really do in majority is maintenance.
    There can be some exception, but pretty much that is the reality.

    This news creates enough hype in the Java developer community at India.
    They will think that they have the oppurtunity of working (in development)
    on Core Java, this will help Sun at India to recruit.

    Also possible in this case some core developers are moving back
    to India and they will do some development with the core Team out in USA.

    I don't think MNCs feel comfortable, doing there core work out of there
    base.

    Do Sun really think, that they can get quality development work using cheap labour.
    I don't believe Good Developers are cheap any where in the world except some
    minor Cost-of-living advantage, in some 3rd world country.
    All the best guys will eventually be at USA and spend there most productive
    time out in USA.
  75. Hi,
     A wise man will take the wise decision at the right time. I think Sun has taken this decision at the right time. Yes, we all know that sun has badly affected due to the US slowdown. At this time only the organization has to take the right decision.

     As we take the technology part into consideration , Yes india has good creative and innovative minds. This gives SUN more advantage..

    congrats to B'lore ....

    -Kamesh.
  76. I really don't believe Sun is moving Java development to Bangalore because of financial reasons.

    What made Sun wince and Cisco cry was the collapse of the .COM businesses. The second hand market for Sun servers and Cisco network devices is still bloated and that is why Sun is loosing money, in spite of the growth of their market share last year. The second hand market will continue to bleed money from Sun and Cisco till the end of this year. Compared with the money Sun is loosing on the server front, the Java development team's cost is negligible.
  77. Sun makes no money from Java (the money they make from the consultants isn't worth mentioning). Would you pour money into a division (Java) that generates no income if your other income divisions were doing poorly? Luckily, Java is very successful and Sun can't afford to cut any of the R&D to save money. (They have to compete against Microsoft&#8217;s new .NET). So why not move it to a cheaper location and still compete maybe even hire more people??
  78. Dont let anyone fool you its becauses its a lot cheaper, the same thing is happening here, people are being laid off and replaced with Indians, the management are quite happy to admit its to 'lower the cost base' this at a time when there are thousands of Java programmers out of work, anyone care to post the salary of an average indian java programmer ?
  79. WAZZUUUP![ Go to top ]

    A fellow Milburn!
  80. Since the 1980s it has been popular to move America's manufacturing base to countries with lower labour costs. This was justified under the pretence that America does not want to protect its manufacturing base, but rather promote an information technology society as its focus. Now that we are moving our technology base what will be left in America? Management, Sales and Marketing - how much is a plane a ticket to India?!
  81. Hi Jini's and Java gurus out there. I agree it makes financial sense for Sun to move operations offshore in the short run. But what about the long run? Maybe they dont care at this point. But once they move offshore there are operational costs because of timezone difference. But the demand of technology is out here in US not there.
    So now sun can claim not only they are platform independent but also geogrpahical limit independence. What next....?
  82. so what; it still remains a country of savages and barbarians (albeit few java talking ones); u need water - dig ur own well; buy ur own generator for electricity; and u may drive (if I can call it that) without brakes but not without a loud blaring horn!!

    Sun folks who enjoy Discovery Travel & Adventure will find it a refreshing change from the monotony of concrete and burgers.
  83. I do not wish to make this a political site, but it is outrageous that the discussion here completely misses the point of how troubling the current sell out of american techologists is.

    I find it appalling that no one is complaining about the basic issue, which is globalization taking away american jobs. Unfortunately, just as american steel was decimated when controls were lifted, there isn't much you can do about companies moving jobs overseas. However,when congress passed a record H1B visa grant even after record percentages of software developers are out of work, it makes me wonder why we suffer silently this outrage in this industry, when if the same thing were to occcur with lawyers or doctors or MBAs there would be protest in the streets. Initially companies argued that there was a shortage of talent, but now they argue that they have to continue to hire foreign labor in order to survive. This is the only industry where the us government has been bullied by corporate big wigs to completely sell out the american citizen and sadly we are the only group unable to find our voice to protest it. When most of us heard t
    The growth prospects of this field, few of us suspected that the american government would sell out millions of jobs to foreign nationals. When we do this in boom times it is a necessary evil, when we do it in recession it is criminal.

    So what does it mean moving core java to india. It is american big business selling out the people who have built it, plain and simple. The motive, profit. Who will suffer? All the americans who went to top schools paid thousands for an education only to be forced to compete without restraint with people who pay no taxes on income earned abroad, often went to highly government subsidized schools, and have government subsidized retirement and health plans. If the US government wants to make us competitive as citizens they should allow us the advantages of the people we have to compete against. But of course, the move of core java to india only followed moving all our other industries overseas to cheap labor sources as well. All of that is fine, as long as americans are allowed to find and build new technologies in which to flourish at home, but giving up even these to foreign nationals is throwing out the baby, and our sustainable progress in these areas, with the bath water.

    I include the text of a recent AP article:
    H-1B visa demand rises, despite tech downturn

    Sunday, January 27, 2002
    ©2002 Associated Press

    (01-27) 08:27 PST SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) --

    U.S. demand for visas to hire skilled foreign workers rose last year despite an economic downturn that prompted companies in various industries to lay off more than 1 million workers.

    U.S. companies and other groups applied for 342,035 H-1B work visas in 2001, up 14 percent from 2000, AFTER the economy tumbled. The H-1B visa is a six-year visa used for bringing skilled foreign workers in sectors that have shortages of qualified U.S. workers. About half the H-1B visas the U.S. government grants each year are for computer related jobs. About half go to people from India. China is a far second.

    The number accepted also rose by 40 percent to about 163,200, after Congress, under pressure from the technology industry, raised the cap on the number of visas the Immigration and Naturalization Service can issue. At least 29,000 visas are pending.

    The H-1B visa is a six-year visa used for bringing skilled foreign workers in sectors that have shortages of qualified U.S. workers.

    Program supporters say it helps companies find qualified workers. They say U.S. schools aren't graduating enough computer engineers to meet demand. Critics say companies are just trying to get workers at a lower salary.

    A possible reason for last year's increase is the 80,000 new engineering and computer jobs created in the technology industry. Also, universities and colleges looking for researchers had no restrictions on how many visas they requested.

    Norman Matloff, a professor of computer science at the University of California, Davis and a critic of the program, said economics is the basic reason behind the jump. During a recession, companies are more eager than ever to cut costs, he said. Matloff says studies show the average annual wages of computer programmers and engineers working in the U.S. on the visas are 15 percent to 33 percent lower than those of U.S. citizens.

    Bay Area companies Oracle, Cisco Systems, Intel and Sun Microsystems were among the top users of the program in 2000, as were universities such as Harvard and Yale. The INS did not have numbers available on how many applications the companies filed last year amid layoffs.
  84. You are absolutely right.
    Not only cheap but also indentured labor.
    It will destroy and very quickly the education
    and the whole industry.
  85. "The growth prospects of this field, few of us suspected that the american government would sell out millions of jobs to foreign nationals. When we do this in boom times it is a necessary evil, when we do it in recession it is criminal. "

    Very well-said. But I doubt the govt, controlled by corporations looking to enhance profits at all costs, will doanything about this. They did nothing when ith appened to other industries. The difference between this industry and, say, textile, is those people just went down the road and found another $10/hour job. We can't do that. I went to school for 4 years and spent $25G in student loans and built a career over several years, I can't just go find anohter job just like that. So, I'll have to retool when I get the "axe" and it will take me a long, long time to recover.

    In the meantime, I'll be on unemployment, welfare, stealing, whatever I have to do to survive. THis eventually will lead to a revolution if this govt sits back and continues to do nothing.
  86. What a change of trend.

    I see many times in America the slogan 'DONOT WORK HARD. WORK SMART'. I did not understand the intentions of the people who use that slogan. But this is certainly a smart work at an industry level. Here in Bangalore, people work hard and smart both.

    The industry is shifting towards Bangalore not because of just Cheap Labour, but because of Cheap Quality labour. In any successful software project, quality and the processes that are followed are equally important. It is not just hard core development work that makes a software project successful. Here, Companies strive to implement CMM Level processes. Bangalore has a history of executing thousands of successful projects.

    This also shows why most of the companies are coming to only Bangalore in India when there are many bigger cities. Bangalore attributes to 38% of anuual software exports of India. The awareness and exposure here is amazing.
  87. Wait for more...[ Go to top ]

    What I have to said is that, sun should did it much earlier. When an average Indian programmer takes $200 per/month working late hours without other facilities as medical, providend funds e.t.c, why is sun still hiring in America? where the rock basic is $4,000.

    Please wait for more, as guys in Pakistan are happy to serve initially 1 or 2 years for free, I know many of them qualified from U.K, Germany and U.S and now turned back and they are doing it.

    Wait for more to come...