Are politics eclipsing Sun from the Web services scene?

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News: Are politics eclipsing Sun from the Web services scene?

  1. A month ago, IBM, HP, Oracle, Microsoft and others formed the Web Services Interoperability (WS-I) organization, an industry consortium dedicated to promoting best practices for Web services. The success of this initiative are critical to the success of Web Services. An event summarizing article on ZDNet concludes that the sooner Sun is given a prominent seat at the WS-I table, the better.

    Read Are politics eclipsing Sun from the Web services scene?.

    Threaded Messages (20)

  2. It sure looks like Sun is getting the cold shoulder on this. I think the problem is that Sun tends to drive a lot of the technology initiatives and it's getting on the nerves of other companies like IBM and BEA. Microsoft is a natural rival of course, but I'm sure that envy is driving a lot of this.

    It all reminds me of the Unix wars a decade ago between Sun/AT&T and the OSF consortium. Sun pissed off a lot of people with it's use of the NFS file system standard which it invented. Sun came up with an excellent windowing standard called NEWS about that time which lost out to an inferior (at that time) X-Window/Motif windowing standard. The early X-Lib API was a really confusing piece of work!

    Sun stood away from the crowd for a while but finally caved in and supported Motif. But they used NEWS as a back end for Motif, and Sun Motif had an enduring speed advantage over everyone else's product.

    Sun learned a lesson from that war and is supporting Web Services from early days. I hope they do it better than everyone else and push their collective faces in the muck!
  3. It is interesting as Microsoft gets to make a decision, and then move on it. This allows them to steer the ship fairly fast (even though they are a huge company).
    Sun has to work with the politics of IBM,Borland,BEA,blah blah.
  4. Dion, I think Microsoft is in no better wise in this consortium. Everyone has to deal with the BEA's. IBM's, etc.

    But Microsoft was in early and Sun was not. That is significant.
  5. But microsoft were the number one guys (they + Dave Whiner = SOAP). They work with people on the standard, but at the same time they are actually implementing it. VB.NET already has excellent Web Service support, and other people are trying to catch up.
  6. I think the point to WS-I is that several vendors don't see Web Services and XML as just another Java play, as Sun would have it. There were some hard feelings about features that got vetoed by Sun in some earlier JSRs, and there is a belief that there is a bigger world for web services than just J2EE, and interoperability is key to success.
  7. "I think the point to WS-I is that several vendors don't see Web Services and XML as just another Java play, as Sun would have it."

    Good point. It's not just another Java play, it's about interoperability between vendors and O-systems. Even so they should allow Sun on to the board.
  8. I think SUN is welcome to the game, but in this one, they don't own the ball.
  9. "I think SUN is welcome to the game, but in this one, they don't own the ball."

    I think the chilly reception Sun has had from the consortium is evidence that they are not particularly welcome. However Sun is smarter now than they were last time. They should be doing just as they are, asking for a seat on the board of WS-1.

    Like it or not, Sun is the closest thing to a representative the Java community has. Does WS-1 really intend to exclude the Java community from the development of Web Services? If so, it's a very very bad move!
  10. I don't think there is any intention of ignoring the Java Community in WS-I. The J2EE environment is the prime candidate for the implementation of web services. Many of the major players, such as IBM, BEA, and Oracle, are betting their businesses on Java. As stated before, interoperability is the key here, and as such, Microsoft cannot be excluded. Try to find a company that does not have a significant investment in Windows fat clients. There are thousands, and that is not likely to change any time soon. These clients have to be able to access web services, so interoperability with the Microsoft .NET stack is a requirement for any person intending to provide a web service on a J2EE platform.
  11. "As stated before, interoperability is the key here, and as such, Microsoft cannot be excluded."

    If interoperability is the key (as surely it ought to be) why is the WS-1 consortium giving the cold sholder to Sun? So that Micro$oft will feel welcome?

    If Web Services are to realize their potention the consortium has to be a neutral playing field.

    I like Web Services (I recommended them for an architecture yesterday). But at this point (as a Java guy) I'm feeling just a little left out....
  12. "I like Web Services (I recommended them for an architecture yesterday). But at this point (as a Java guy) I'm feeling just a little left out.... "

    It's a good question though if such feeling is Java's fault or any specific company's fault. I mean, SOAP web services can be implemented in a very natural way (see The Mind Electric's SOAP as an example), yet some EJB container vendors are wary of implementing them, basically because they make irrelevant a lot of the complexity of EJB servers. So it's not Java the platform that is being left out but the economical and marketing decision of some of the Java corporate players.
  13. "it's not Java the platform that is being left out but the economical and marketing decision of some of the Java corporate players."

    That may or may not be true, but it still does not explain why Sun was left off the invitation list until very late. Does it?
  14. When I first began looking at Web Services there was an open question in my mind whether this was just another Microsoft-driven 'standard' which was meant to deal the rest of us out of the game.

    After looking at the Apache SOAP inplementation I decided that is an unfounded fear. The major Web Services standards appeared to be agnostic in the Java vs C# catfight, and a jolly good idea as well. So I bought in.

    Now the politics are coming to the fore. Given the behavior vis Sun thus far, the WS-1 group seems to be driving some kind of adgenda, or at least it seems a strong possibility to me. I have to wonder whether there are forces on WS-1 who are trying to drive Web Services in a way against the best interests of the Java community? Is the intent to exclude Java, to drive Java developers into 'new' platforms such as C#? Their behavior thus far has not been transparent.

    Different rules seem to apply to Microsoft and Sun, and that is not reassuring......
  15. Sun does not see WS-I and XML as another Java play. Sun has the clear understanding that web services are language independant. However, it is extremely important that Java be able to participate in the web services world for obvious reasons. In fact, if Sun did *not* work with others in the JCP for Web Services support, they would get criticized.

    Damn'd if you do, Damn'd if you don't :(
  16. J2EE vendors participation in WS-I doesn't appear the way it should be.

    If this is body governing Interoperability between webservices build with J2EE and other (.NET included) technologies, the borad member in WS-I should be JCP.org rather then individual vendors.

    Also note that all JAX* packages talks about interoperability.

    Kumar.
  17. Forming a partnership with Mocrosoft must be the proverbial lieing down with the devil. Linux is catching microsoft and Open source and open technologies liek Java are beating their little meglomaniac heads into the ground.
  18. Not trying to troll here, but has anyone delivered or designing a *real* Web Service for any business/client. I mean are businesses even intrested or is it still in the hype phase? just curious
    Thanks
    Ravi
  19. Coming to agreement on the definition of a web service is the first step, and the first problem.
  20. OT: How relavent are web services?[ Go to top ]

    Storebrand, a Norwegian benefits processing company, has used web services to gather pension information from over 1000 small businesses. Many are Microsoft sites, the central server is IBM WebSphere.
  21. "Everyone has to deal with the BEA's. IBM's..."
    Yes,I think so.In the WebService field,they are the best.But Sun and Microsoft provide the standard.