Gartner last week released numbers indicating that the application server market only grew by 20% in 2001 (compared to 100% in previous years), as well as pegging 2001 marketshare numbers at: IBM 31%, BEA 34%, Sun 9%, with the rest divided between Oracle, HP, and competitors. A new article on internetweek steps back and looks at the trends driving the appserver market.
Read App Servers: Behind The Numbers
Read IDC, Gartner Put New Numbers To App Server Market>
Another interesting piece from Gartner Sun's Free J2EE Platform will Pressure Competitors
About the Gartner note "Sun's Free J2EE Platform will Pressure Competitors" :
Seems to me that Sun is doing the same thing that Microsoft did with Internet Explorer and M$ Windows 95.
It isn't the same thing, can you stop repeating what you read.
The two things are not comparable. Linux is bundled with a database, ldap server, web server, php, perl, python ...
but they are not integrated to the os you can use choose what you want. Same goes to Solaris, on the other hand Windows has key application that are integrated in the OS and are hard, for enduser, to replace. You can't compare a server OS with a consumer OS.
I think that comparsion to win95+IE is not quite good. Better you will look to NT+IIS. Well, it went pretty close to the Apache server, but...
The article talks about upping the platform to include portal, integration, directory and other value-add pieces on top of the basic J2EE container. However, it may well underplay the fundamental shift that Web services will have on how applications are built, delivered and managed.
The app server sports for the most part a synchronous request/reply metaphor (3-tier client/server if you will) where applications (delivered by the middle tier) are built from tightly-coupled components. With Web services, applications built from loosely-coupled services create rather different requirements, commonly referred to as Web service orchestration. These requirements which entail coordination, management and activity monitoring are not part of what J2EE application servers provide today.
This fundamental shift may have a rather significant impact on the market share dynamics of application servers and a whole new race to deliver the new infrastructure requirements. For example, deploying long-lived, multi-step collaborative and/or transactional business processes raises the need to efficiently manage state and persist context while handling parallel and asynchronous activities.
Sun really wants to sell its hardware. If it can make a little off of Java or J2EE licensing then that's gravy.
Ok, now the point. Why doesn't Sun do something a little different? Like build a language neutral App Server based as closely as possible on the J2EE spec? IIOP ==> CORBA, right? Just think. A jam-up app server where you can write C++ or C components (or Java) or a mix! You could sell it and differentiate yourself from other hardware vendors.
A jam-up app server where you can write C++ or C components (orJava) or a mix!
Such App Servers are exist: Sybase EAS (Jaguar), and I think couple more...
That's a bit dangerous for them to do. It could hurt Java in general. The whole Microsoft vs. Sun thing is "one platform, many languages" vs. "one language, mulitple platforms". Microsoft would jump on that one right away.
We need a combo. Many languages, many platforms. We kinda had that with CORBA. I wish we had that now.
We need a combo. Many languages, many platforms. We kinda had that with CORBA. I wish we had that now.
Webservices? Aren't they trying to do just that? Or what do you mean?
"A jam-up app server where you can write C++ or C "
Sun did that. It's called iPlanet Application Server. All versions of it before 7.0 support Java and C. No one ever uses the C funcationality, so they removed it.
One language it's the big advantage allready. Who needs to write an enterprise distribuited app. in 3 differenmt languages?, who needs to write Cobol Enterprise Components?. Microsoft spent millions implementing that idea (.NET) just to make everybody write C# code ( Any other language doesn't map well to CLR ). I think Java it's just OK, the problem IMHO it's interoperability between different runtime enviroments, and that's other kind of problem (webservices anyone?).
"One language it's the big advantage allready. Who needs to write an enterprise distribuited app. in 3 differenmt languages?"
From the standpoint of Sun giving away its app server as a business decision; I'm saying that if Sun wants to sell software and possibly more hardware develop the J2EE platform in a way that, for instance, one can write Session Beans using C++. Or, JSPs with C++.
The 'One language' concept doesn't seem to be helping Sun right now.
I'd love to use C++ instead of Java. I'd guess there's others out there who also would. Performance would certainly be much better.
MS had it half right with COM because of language semi-neutrality. Sun has it half right with platform semi-neutrality. CORBA is close but lacks the services that people want, and is a little more difficult.
"I'm saying that if Sun wants to sell software and possibly more hardware develop the J2EE platform in a way that, for instance, one can write Session Beans using C++. Or, JSPs with C++.
Maybe it just me, but I would be horrified to see a developer using C++ within a JSP. I have enough maintain problems, and if you think you need it you are probably misusing JSPs. Arguably, you might make a case for other components to be done in C++ but a developer would have a hard time convincing me that the additional performance would be worth the increased maintenance complexity. I see Java productivity/maintainability as about 10 times that of c++.
Just my 2 cents.....
Using C++ for JSP development is a supremely stupid idea. A JSP is supposed to be built by a non-programmer, with just a bit of Java to fill in dynamic fields. What are you thinking?
I really like the idea of Java becoming a universal language. I have made my living programming in 14 different languages (not including various assembler and macro languages) over my career, and Java is my last I hope. Most of the languages were not any better than the others, just different. Java has most of the right pieces, and the best designed and supported class libraries available. I'll stick with what is working, thank you.
You should check out the Sybase EAS Application Server if this is what you are looking for. It supports C++, Java, COM, even PowerBuilder. It even allows you to develop objects in C++, then generate EJB Home and Remote interfaces for these in java. So you can call a C++ class just like it was an EJB. Conversely it allows you to generate C++ stubs for an EJB allowing you to call EJB's from a C++ client.
If you're feeling really brave, they've exposed basically all the lifecycle support that an EJB has to the C++ object model. So as an example, you could actually create a C++ EntityBean, with all the load/store lifecycle features. Im not saying you should, just you can :)
I'd love to use C++ instead of Java. I'd guess there's
>>others out there who also would. Performance would
>>certainly be much better.
I know this will upset you (and I am being somewhat deliberately provocative) - but C++ is dead. With two, entirely viable, managed platforms such as the JVM and the CLR, there is little excuse for putting yourself through the heartache of using C++.
According to a TogetherSoft poll, JBoss is running at 42% for development. Results were:
2% ATG Dynamo
24% BEA Weblogic
3% IBM WebSphere
0% Oracle 9iAS
Out of 1626 total votes!
right side bar for details. This is a poll of the month so may disappear!
BTW JBoss got over 200,000 downloads in April. Anyone from BEA care to comment how many they got?
get real ... downloads != $$$
BEA and IBM have nearly a billion $ in combined
app server sales. Anybody from JBoss care to comment
how much $ they made last year? :-)
"I know this will upset you (and I am being somewhat deliberately provocative) - but C++ is dead. "
It may not be totally dead yet but it is most definitely dying. That bothers me, too. C++ is a very expressive and powerful language. The more I use Java the less I like it. C# suffers from the same basic problems that Java has.
Maybe, just maybe, C++ will have a reemergence. Or maybe Java, C# will grow their feature sets. Or maybe a new language more expressive than Java and C# will emerge soon.
History tells us that computer have limited lifespans. Something else will come along soon. I just hope it's not another step back.
"With two, entirely viable, managed platforms such as the JVM and the CLR, there is little excuse for putting yourself through the heartache of using C++. "
There's no heartache for me using C++. All that time and toil to learn it and become good at it appears of no use now (tears in my eyes). But, there's no question that it is far and away superior to Java.
(Now I'm being provacative) Java and VB.NET are now almost equivalent languages; feature-for-feature.
(rising to the bait ;-)
When you say C++ is so expressive: I am not sure what it is that you want to express that you cannot with Java or C#?
"All that time and toil to learn it and become good at it ..." I agree. However, it took me comparitively little time to achieve the same and more using Java/J2EE.
Also, I couldnt help but notice a post in another thread:
"Incidentally, it looks like MS made the same mistakes with C#"
You may want to consider that most of the software development industry have got it right ;-)
(FYInterest: try do a search on XML language bindings - I will guarantee you that there are 20x more Java implementations than C++. And I am yet to find a good C++ XML binding)
You're kidding, right?
Your app server proposal smells suspiciously like .not's CLR.
Who the hell want to build business apps on C/C++ w/ CORBA? Been there. Done that. Not fun. I would switch careers before going back to it again. I'll stick with this little thing we have called Java. (Currently) no need for anything else.
I'm serious. It would not be CORBA. It would look like it does now (it being J2EE) but with multi-language support.
It would give Sun something to sell and something to differentiate itself. And it would give the developer community more choices. Java leaves much to be desired so give us choices.
What benefit is there to that. The benefit is only developer prefence. It won't solve most tintegration issues. Not only is C++ more difficult to code, but plain data access will become an issue again (ODBC vs. native database API, vs. RogueWave drivers). If I need to go to a Mainframe, no standard Connectors from C++.
Rather than change the implementation, change the interface and protocols. Multi-protocol objects are the way to go, EJBs that compile IIOP stubs, Web Services proxies, RMI/JRMP stubs, COM stubs, etc... Making you java objects accesible by multiple protocols. IBM WSAD Integration edition currently generates IIOP and Web Services wrappers automatically through wizards.
views my own, not IBM
To clarify, the statement "IBM 31%, BEA 34%, Sun 9%, with the rest divided between Oracle, HP, and competitors" is incorrect. These numbers correspond to what Gartner calls "Unbundled Application Servers," which DO NOT EVEN INCLUDE Oracle!
Instead, Oracle falls in Gartner's "Application Platform Suites" category because its Oracle9i Application Server is much more than an app server and contains other platform pieces like portal, etc.
Gartner's numbers for this category are IBM 33%, BEA 24%, Oracle 12%, Sun 8%, etc. Oracle can only be compared under this category and with these numbers.
Chances are Oracles doesn't pay Gartner for their research or to do expensive studies for them, which is the only way any company gets fair coverage in these reports.
<i>Chances are Oracles doesn't pay Gartner for their research or to do expensive studies for them, which is the only way any company gets fair coverage in these reports.</i>
If that were true, then how do you explain Gartner's coverage of JBoss ...oh wait...
spoken like a true oracle zealot! :-)
I'm sure Oracle can cook up something here (based on "real world" examples) similar to your benchmarks results that proclaim 10x faster than the rest of the world!