JADE Open Framework 1.1 Released with Eclipse Integration

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News: JADE Open Framework 1.1 Released with Eclipse Integration

  1. Salmon LLC is pleased to announce the release of JADE 1.1, the open source rapid application development tool for the J2EE. JADE is a Java framework and JSP tag library that integrates with Dreamweaver, IntelliJ IDEA and now Eclipse. JADE was released as open source only a few months ago, but has been used privately as the foundation for a J2EE consulting practice for several years.

    For more information on JADE take a look at http://www.salmonllc.com/jade.

    Press Release
    ---------------------------
    Salmon LLC is pleased to announce the release of JADE 1.1, the open source rapid application development tool for the J2EE. Since the initial release of JADE two months ago more than 20,000 developers within the open source community have downloaded a copy and provided a great deal of positive feedback. In response to the feedback, we have added the following new features:

    A plug in for the Eclipse Integrated Development Environment. You can now use Eclipse as well as IntelliJ IDEA for your JADE Development
    JDK 1.4 support
    Internationalization
    A WML tag library
    Better support for clustered environments
    Extended form validation functionality
    Extended code assist functionality in Dreamweaver

    For those unfamiliar with JADE, it is a Java framework and JSP tag library that integrates with best-of-breed off the shelf tools, Dreamweaver, IntelliJ IDEA and now Eclipse to provide an end-to-end solution for developing database driven web applications and web sites for the J2EE. It provides the following benefits:

    Best-of-breed tools:

    JADE makes use of best-of-breed tools that make your life easier, not get in the way.

    Increased programmer productivity:

    Paint your web application GUI in a visual environment (Dreamweaver).
    Use our code generators help you build the back end Java code quickly.

    A solid Object Oriented foundation for your web application:

    JADE uses the Model-View-Controller design pattern to separate business logic from presentation. You can create a GUI in JADE using absolutely no in-line Java in your JSP. This allows for seamless separation of tools (use the IDE for Java and Dreamweaver for the JSP) as well as specialization on the development team. In addition, JADE uses industry accepted design patterns like event listeners and smart GUI components to help you speed your development effort and end up with a robust, maintainable application in the end.

    A battle-tested tool:

    Although JADE was released as open source only a few months ago, it has been in use privately as the foundation for a J2EE consulting practice for several years. In that time, we have used it to build web applications both large and small and in the process have put the tool "through the wars". All of our components are robust and high performance and have been thoroughly tested in real world applications.

    For more information on JADE take a look at http://www.salmonllc.com/jade

    JADE can be downloaded free of charge from Source Forge at http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/salmon

    About Salmon LLC:

    Founded in 1995, Salmon LLC specializes in the development of Java applications using object-oriented languages, tools and techniques within intranet and Internet and architectures. Project management skills and in-depth technology expertise provide a basis for cost-effective solutions and flexible business arrangements. We offer both traditional consulting and fixed-price solutions. Find out more about Salmon at www.salmonllc.com.

    Threaded Messages (48)

  2. Let me be the first to say that JADE is pretty much crap. We were running the .9 release, and now we're moving off to struts. JADE has a terrible structure, poor coding architect, poor performance, and most of it doesn't make a lot of sense.

    From someone that has used it extensively... look elsewhere.

    - Leif Ashley, leifashley@yahoo.com
  3. We don't have a .9 release. Are you sure you are using the same JADE?
  4. Leif,

    I see you are .Net group administrator.

    http://www.dnug.net/ViewGroup.aspx?id=184

    Feeling a little Threatened are you?

    You should go back to Java.
  5. Besides the integration with the IDEs, what are the differences between Struts and JADE? What should I look for when choosing one of these JSP framework? We are starting a project in which we will use a JSP - MVC support structure.

    Thanks,

    Paul Jaime
    Wolrdco LLC.
  6. They are similar in concept, but different in philosophy.

    I think the biggest difference is that JADE is component based while Struts uses logic tags for the view. We don't believe that you should put any programming logic (in in-line code or tags) in the view. We think that the logic belongs in Java class where you have things like inheritance and encapsulation, not HTML/JSP where those concepts are supported weakly at best.

    Also, JADE has built in data access components and lots of GUI components that you won't find in Struts out of the box, although you can assemble a lot of that functionality yourself by integrating third party products like JExpresso. Although we aren't sure why people would go to the trouble of integrating when you can get it all in one package already tightly integrated unless there is something else they really like about Struts.

    Take a look at http://www.salmonllc.com/website/Jsp/vanity/bin/FeatureByFeature.doc for more info.

    But I think the "designed with tool support from day one" philosophy is a big difference. We feel that in order to be really productive developers need to leverage tools with more functionality then a text editor, otherwise they won't be able to compete with developers who use the more functional tools because it will take them much longer to produce the same result. We think that a lot of Java developers use bare bones tools because the current offerings tend to get in your way more than help. That fact puts Java developers at a big disadvantage compared to Dot Net developers who have a really strong tool set from day one. We are hoping that by leveraging some of the quality development tools that are emerging (IntellJ, Eclipse and Dreamweaver) we can provide developers a good alternative and give them one more reason to not jump onto the dot net band wagon. That helps the whole Java world and us along with it. I hope the Java vendors are thinking this way also, but I'm not holding my breath.
  7. We are using Dreamweaver for our GUI developement and have been looking at Struts. Does JADE offer better integration with Dreamweaver than what Struts can offer?
  8. As far as I know, Struts doesn't really offer any kind of GUI painting with Dreamweaver while JADE's Dreamweaver integration is extensive.
  9. Hi Brian,

    I've used Struts with Dreamweaver (not MX). There was no support for Struts tags. No harm in using the Struts bean and logic taglibs, but (in general) avoid the html taglibs. html:error and html:base are okay. html:form is iffy. Basically, Dreamweaver doesn't know that html:text, etc is an input box, and won't render it. It just leaves the space blank.

    The Struts site has a link to some experimental Dreamweaver MX library to support Struts tags. I've used it, but did not find it very helpful.

    Struts, unfortunately, does not support good separation between web designer and programmer.

    Regards,
    Calvin Loh
  10. Two main problems with Jade:<br/>
    1) Licensing<br/>
       Struts is under the Apache license, so I can re-distribute my application without any worries. With Jade, I need to negotiate with Salmon LLC for a commercial license. Note that you can use Jade for internal projects without restriction.<br/>
    2) Development environment<br/>
       If you develop on Linux or Unix, Jade loses much of its power. To get the full effect, Jade needs Dreamweaver, which works only for Windows. For the controller and business logic aspects, Struts has as much IDE support as Jade.<br/>
    <br/>
    Look at the Wafer project on Sourceforge for a
    list of other MVC web frameworks.
  11. Calvin,

    Your concerns are accurate.

    1) JADE is under the GNU GLP. If you use it for non internal projects they have to be open source as well. BTW: If you work for an IT department a public web site for your corporation is considered an internal project as are intranet sites. We released it under that license because we feel that if people extend our good work or make a lot of money from our product they should help support the community by providing revenue for development or by providing source code back to the community. A lot of open source tools do this, the MySQL database engine for example. We are trying to see if we can create a revenue stream through either licenses or services and we may be able to use a less restrictive license at some point, but we need some sort of revenue to keep this all going.

    2) You do lose a lot of functionality without Dreamweaver and so developing on Linux Systems is a problem. We just assumed that most people use Windows for development and we couldn't find an HTML painter as nice as Dreamweaver so we used it. So developing on Unix/Linux would be a problem. Deploying your JADE application to other operating systems isn't a problem however. Could folks send their comments on this to us at jade at salmonllc dot com or fill out the survey on Source Forge so we know if this is a valid assumption. Also we would like to integrate with really good open source HTML editor, but we don't know of any.
  12. Dan,

    1) Licensing
    a) If I'm not mistaken, only your Sourceforge site mentions GPL. Your main site only says Jade is free for internal use (in the FAQ, I think). You should put a link on the main Jade home page to tell users that the license is GPL and what the conditions are.
    b) Personally, I think the GPL license is over-rated. I believe most of us have encountered the horror of maintaining or using multiple branches of code and frameworks. If I have the time or ability to modify anything in the framework I use, I will definitely push it back to the main branch of code. With the GPL license, I would not even consider using Jade for a commercial project. And that costs you users who might help out in one way or another (code, tools, documentation, or even just feedback and bug reports).

    2) Some places need to develop on UNIX. Mainly because they have legacy stuff which needs to be integrated, or re-used. Imagine 7 to 10 years worth of business logic in some native code or other accessed through some Java API gateways. The legacy code can't be ported. And the Java gateways cannot be modified (by corporate/ministerial fiat). And MIS won't let you put an RMI layer on top of the gateway.

    For my current case, it is a matter of cost. My Redhat Linux CDs cost me S$35++. Getting Windows would cost about S$900++ per machine. Multiply that by 3 or 4 for a small team. Or 7-10 for a medium sized team.

    I'm also looking for open-source HTML WYSIWYG editors :)
    Seriously, if you don't need WYSIWYG, you might consider Jedit or Jext. They both colour-code HTML/JSPs. And support plug-ins. Or you can develop a JSP colour-code plug-in for Eclipse :)
  13. 1) These are tricky issues. We are pretty new to this open source thing and are still working out the licensing. But it seemed to us that if somebody is using JADE for a commercial product they are making money with it. It doesn't seem fair that somebody is making money doing a value add to our product and we aren't making anything. A lot of the stuff in JADE we would be doing anyway so there is no additional cost to us, but documentation, installation programs, example applications and monitoring these forums cost us money. Also, this release contains features that we only did because of requests from the community and don't really need for our own use. We need to find a way to at least break even. We were hoping to make money from services like JBoss and/or commercial licenses like MySQL but so far we are having trouble with both. If anybody has any ideas or has a rich uncle who likes open source, please let us know.

    I don't think the license is on our web site, but it is in all the documentation and on top of each source code file and we have a support page with some info.

    http://www.salmonllc.com/website/Jsp/vanity/JadeSupport.jsp?nav=5&NavBarId=JadeSupport

    2) Developing on Unix and Dreamweaver: Dreamweaver integration is the only part of JADE that won't work on Unix/Linux. But you can develop with JADE without Dreamweaver. So you can use Unix, but you would lose the GUI painter. We aren't sure if that is acceptable but we don't think there are a lot of alternatives.

    Some things we are thinking about here:

    I've heard the next version of IntelliJ will have a JSP editor that supports code assist for tag libs. We are going to have a look at that for the next release and if it does we plan to support it fully. But that only gets us part of the way there. It won't do GUI design time rendering and it won't give you a palette of widgets to paint from. We simply haven't found an HTML editor besides Dreamweaver that you can customize to do that for your own tags. We heard a rumor that there is a JSP painter plug-in for Eclipse and thought we may be able to extend that but I think the version number is .2 so we don't expect it to be ready for some time and we aren't even sure who makes it.

    This winds up boiling down to the same issue. We can't afford to write a whole HTML Editor ourselves (it would probably be cheaper for us to buy Dreamweaver licenses for all our active users), it would be junk compared to Dreamweaver, and we don't need it for our own use because we really like Dreamweaver and we develop on Windows. How much can we do simply for the good of the world before we go broke?
  14. Dan,

    I'm the one that mentioned the JSP plug-in for Eclipse. You can find it at:

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/solareclipse/

    However, it's not a GUI painter. It's just a syntax colorer (at this point). I'm not sure what their long-term goals are, but I don't think they're trying to make Eclipse into a Dreamweaver replacement. So I don't think this is what you are looking for.

    The licensing issues raised in this thread are a concern to me. I still haven't gotten JADE on the front burner, but if I really like it, then I might need to interact with you by e-mail about licensing. Our initial deployment will be what you consider "internal" but we don't want to limit the possibility of licensing our project to other parties, and I'd need to know how much the use of JADE would add to the cost of doing that.

    I've evaluated quite a few MVC Java Web frameworks over the past weeks. Each one has had some glaring weaknesses for our use. I would be happy with Struts + JavaServer Faces (if it pans out) but JSF is still too sketchy for me to arrive at any serious conclusions. I haven't seen any others which have done a good job with the UI issues, so I'm hoping JADE will impress. I'll let you know.

    By the way, I don't see how Struts + JExpresso is a real JADE substitute. Unless I missed something, I didn't see any meaningful UI components to JExpresso.

    Pete Cassetta
  15. Pete,

    Like I said, we are still working out the licensing issues and aren't sure how much we plan to charge. A lot depends on the market. We ever we come up with, we will try to make it fair and not overly expensive. Also, if we can generate enough revenues from services we may be able to go to an Apache style license, but at this point we need to keep our options open. Send us an email at jade_licensing at salmonllc dot com if you like and we can contact you directly.

    Bummer about the JSP painter. I think IBM has a pretty good JSP painter in WSAD. Maybe somebody could convince them to donate it to the Eclipse project?

    With respect to JSR 127, I'm am actually a member of the JCP. Until the spec is public, it would violate my contract to talk about it in anything but the vaguest of terms so I won't even go there.

    Struts vs. JExpresso: Struts would do the views and controllers and JExpresso would do the models. JADE has components for all three pieces to seamlessly interact plus Dreamweaver integration to paint all of them so in my very biased opinion I think we are better :).
  16. Dan,

    Two quick comments.

    First of all, I understand that mum's the word on JSF. However, my understanding was that after the community vote (which passed on August 12, according to the JSF Web page), the spec would soon be released for public comment. That was a couple of weeks ago, and I see no mention of when the spec will get into the hands of the Java Web developing public. So if you could tell your fellow committee members that we have real world projects and would like to see what's coming as soon as possible, and could even convince them to at least provide some guidance as to when we'll get to see it, a lot of folks would appreciate that.

    Second, I stand by my comment that Struts + JExpresso is not very comparable to JADE. To me, Struts is mostly about the Controller, and JExpresso seems focused on the model. So where's the view? JSF is probably the answer, but today's view offering is very weak in Struts + JExpresso. The fact that you have seriously addressed the view in JADE is a big plus.

    I will probably interact with your company personally about the licensing issues. Not that I mind paying something for using it on our Web site, but I need to know I can use JADE on low-end client sites without paying much or it's a no-go.

    However, I run a business too, so I understand your need to find a practical business model for JADE.

    I lost most of yesterday and today to a title problem with my wife's minivan, so I still haven't looked seriously at JADE. I have taken a close look at a lot of other interesting projects though. The most recent was Echo, which won't meet our needs for most client sites, but which could be interesting for certain types of Web apps. It's kind of a more practical and stable wingS.
  17. I'm wondering what's going on for JSF also. I know it passed the vote, but the spec isn't public yet. Some sort of spec limbo I guess. BTW: I'm not on the committee for that spec. I joined the JCP too late and that committee is so big that I wouldn't have gotten on anyway. So I don't think they will listen to me if I ask them to hurry up.

    I see your point with Struts. Their strength is the controller. The do have a tag library for the GUI, basically form tags and logic tags, but is isn't as strong as JADE because of our component model. I also think we do a better job on the controller as Struts does because we have multiple events and they pretty much have one. I also think we do as good a job on the model as JExpresso, but then I'm biased.

    I noticed Echo on source forge also. I haven't looked at it detail, but it seems to me from what I read on it that it is what JADE was about two years ago, a component and event model like the AWT for the J2EE. We had a good couple of year run with that type of foundation and did a ton of systems successfully. All that stuff is still there in our tool a few layers down. That kind of code is really useful when a page or portions has to be built dynamically at runtime, like presenting a different menu for different users based on info in a database table. It doesn't really lend itself to tool based development and coding the screens takes a huge amount of tedious code (generally more then the business logic). That's why we went with the tag library because it makes it easy to build the GUI, in notepad or Dreamweaver for pages that can be coded at design time (which is most of them) but we still have the component model when you need the power and flexibility.

    With respect to license, if you really want to use JADE don't worry about that. We'll work something out so everybody is happy :).
  18. Dan,

    I appreciate your informative posts on JADE.

    My note on Echo was a bit off-topic. But let me react to your comments and then let the Echo topic die as it doesn't really fit here.

    I mainly thought Echo was intriguing. A lot of little negatives, like it doesn't support older browsers well (or Opera), the browser "back" button generally doesn't work, and as you noticed, you're basically coding a Swing/AWT type UI by hand, which is awfully time-consuming.

    However, I was intrigued by how they effectively removed the page-oriented nature of the Web interface. It's a totally event-listener scheme and you create windows (corresponding to a browser window), panes (corresponding to a browser frame), panels (corresponding to a sidebar or header or footer on a browser page), etc. There are even layout managers as in Swing (struts and grid-bag type). They do all this with only JavaScript on the client side and Java on the server side. You never actually write any HTML or JavaScript (unless you want to create custom components). No applets or WebStart. Whenever a user action requires repainting, the client's browser pane gets updated (either by a refresh or a DHTML operation). You can also easily open "dialogs" which are popup browser windows that store their results in the model.

    Response time is good, the design is pretty clean, etc. Overall, I think it's an intriguing system.

    However, the negatives I enumerated above don't make it practical for most of the projects I work on. It is particularly unsuited to sites which are content-heavy and have little application logic. Yet I think it would be quite suitable for something like a little logo creator where the user types some text, indicates a font, color, size, style, etc. Your Java code just manipulates the image to your heart's content, refreshes the preview pane, and waits for more input.

    I'm glad I took a look at Echo anyway, and I may find a use for it here and there.
  19. Dan-
    Now that the public draft for JSF is out I would like to here your thoughts on how JADE will fit with JSF?
  20. I was pretty unimpressed with the JSF spec. I think it's more hype then reality. Others seem to agree http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=15244

    I do think that if the initial bad press doesn't kill it, and they keep at it, in about 18 months it will be a viable solution. In the mean time Microsoft is looming so we released JADE. It works right now, does exactly what JSF was supposed to do.
  21. Dan,

    I'll play devil's advocate below:

    MySQL - from my understanding, these guys don't work on anything else. Whereas Salmon LLC is an SI/consultancy.

    Also, MySQL is a product, not a library. I don't have to open-source my code if I use MySQL. Same thing with JBoss.

    Another issue you should consider - you have considerable open source competition. You may be better, but Struts has better brand name recognition. XMLC has been around a long time. Tapestry and Japple are similar to Jade (component model & gui) and are under the LGPL license. JBoss and MySQL do not have major open source competition. In addition, they both have brand-name recognition.

    JBoss gets money by consultancies. People pay to get top-level support for JBoss. People pay the JBoss group and MySQL group to take the fall if something goes wrong.

    If you intend Jade to be truly open source, other people will be contributing to it. You will also benefit from it. If you directly make money from Jade, how will you pay contributors?

    Documentation and installation programs are things you will need yourself. I was in a job where they rolled their own MVC and persistence frameworks, and there was no documentation. Learning to use the damned things cost each developer a few weeks. If Salmon LLC is at all similar to other companies, it will face turnover. You can't afford this wastage. Example programs are yet another useful learning tool. They also serve as useful regression test cases as well.

    Monitoring forums lets you know how other people are trying to use Jade. It gives direction for growth for both Salmon LLC and Jade. With proper follow-up from Salmon LLC's marketing people, forums are a good source of case studies.

    IMO, open source can be exploited commercially, but never directly. Build products on top of Jade. Provide Jade training and consultancy services. Use the open source nature of Jade as indirect advertising. Exploit the synergies between a free version and paid version (a-la licensed MS Office and pirated MS Office). In South East Asia, people use MS products because they can easily get cheap pirated versions. Companies use MS products because they can easily find people who know how to use MS products. Of course, it works the other direction as well. MS only cracks down on illegal copies used by corporations. Normal pirate users still get the usual knowledge base support. They can still upgrade their IE even when using illegal copies of Windows.

    IMHO, the GPL is a 2-edged sword. In a better economic environment, people are willing to pay. I would have tried out Jade, and if it worked out, persuaded my boss to fork out the cash for it. Now, I can't even try it.
    If it was LGPL/Apache/BSD/MIT, I have more options. I could use Jade, and pass the costs on to the clients when the economy improves. In the business world, my boss often tells me: CYA is very important. If shit happens, blame the consultant. This is why people use IBM, Oracle, MS, etc. This is why I would have paid for a commercial license for Jade in good times.

    Since you say you are still fine-tuning the license, you may want to ask users and evaluators if they would prefer a different license. Perhaps you may like to do it like Resin. Source code is free, but can't use Jade commercially without a license. More or less what you have now, but without the GPL. I still can't use it, but at least now there is no confusion between open-source and commercial.
  22. Dan,

    Just saw some interesting articles on open source and the capitalist market. Look up the thread on "Marc Fleury responds to Scott McNealy on J2EE Open Source" on theserverside. Look for the postings by Ryan Breidenbach and Jason McKerr. You might get some ideas on how you want to license Jade.
  23. Calvin,

    Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You have some great points about open source and the license. Basically we choose the GPL because it allows us to keep our options open.

    Our thoughts when we went open source were:

    1) Become better known in the industry, which would hopefully lead to new consulting contracts.

    2) Make our existing customers happy. That's worked out well.

    3) We figured that if Microsoft takes over from the J2EE, our product becomes worthless anyway so we may as well put it out there now when it can do some good. Otherwise we will just wind up being forced into becomming dot net programmers in a couple of years.

    4) We have to maintain the code anyway so what would it cost us much to make it open source? It turns out that that one isn't true, free software is costing us some money. Developing takes a lot more effort now. We can't just code a new feature. We have to document it, deliver it and support it and consider all that as we design the feature. And people keep asking for more and more free stuff.

    BTW: We didn't have documentation or install procedures for several years. Generally the newbies in the company complained, but they learned by taking over and maintaining an existing project mentored by a senior person who did the project. They did have to suffer for a while, but not for too long. Figuring out an existing real world project along with a mentor turns out to be way better then documentation. Also, we pretty much don't have any turnover at Salmon. It's a really nice place to work.

    5) We are hoping that a community would grow of developers who submit enhancements. We aren't sure how to manage something like that but so far only two developers offered to do anything and then disappeared right after so it hasn't been an issue yet. Generally at Salmon newbies don't start wanting to modify the framework for about six months so it's still really early and we are still hoping. Although people are starting to answer questions on the source forge forum who aren't from Salmon which is a very good sign. Also, with this release we had some people from the community do beta testing of the install procedure. Not huge, but also promising.

    6) We were hoping that we could find some way to make money at it to at least cover our costs or possibly make a profit, but we really don't know how open source works so we are trying to keep our options open. We would be fine with service revenue because we are consultants and service is what we are really good at. But like with the developer community, it's too soon. At this point I expect that our earliest open source users are just finishing up their first pilot projects about now. How long did it take JBoss to get enough traction to start serious services money?

    Can people send us an email with their thoughts on this: jade_licensing at salmonllc dot com. We’ll let everybody know what we come up with next week.
  24. We talked it over and are thinking of adding following line to our license:

    "Any user or organization who wishes to use JADE for non-open source commercial products may do so by registering at http://www.salmonllc.com. Registered users will be granted the right to freely distribute JADE Open Framework runtime classes in binary form for the purpose of deploying a web site or web application developed with The JADE Open Framework."

    So all you will have to do is register. We won't be charging for the license. Please don't go registering yet. There is no form yet on there on the site. We just want to ask the community what they think about the new line in the license. Please send us your comments at jade_license at salmonllc dot com or use our forum on source forge http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=180505.
  25. Hi Dan,

    The additional line is very welcome. But I have the following concerns:

    The additional line is incompatible with the Apache license and GPL stated in your Sourceforge web-site.
    As a matter of fact, the Apache License and GPL are not compatible with each other.


    The new line does raise a question: Is the registration on a per user basis, or per project/product basis? In other words,
    Case 1: CompanyA registers, and can thereafter freely distribute any/all of its products with the registered version of Jade to any/all customers;
    Case 2: CompanyA must register for each product to be distributed with Jade, and can thereafter freely distribute the registered version of Jade to any/all customers;
    Case 3: Company A must register for each product to be distributed to each customer

    The new term implies Case 1, but I'm not sure.
    Also, you need to enable registration for each new version of Jade, and you need to define what you mean by a version (probably each full release - v1, v2, etc).
    I mention the version problem because MySql's JDBC driver recently changed the license from LGPL to GPL and your new term does not mention anything about tying the license to Jade's version.


    Regards,
    Calvin Loh
  26. We included the Apache license because there are a couple of classes in there that was derived from Tomcat classes so that stuff has to be under the Apache license.

    We aren't allowed to add additional terms to the GPL? We hold the copyright for JADE. Can't we release it under any license we want?

    The issue with MySql is a bit dicey. You don't need it to run JADE. Most of the popular engines: MySql, Sybase, Oracle, DB2 or SQL Server will work just fine. We just included MySql because it was a convenient way to show case the example app and get through the tutorial. I guess we'll have to contact them and ask about it. I would hate to have to rewrite the install over something silly like this.

    Our thought was that the license would be by user/company not by product. If you write a web site with JADE you will be able to sell it without the source as long as you let us know who you are. We'll figure out some way to make the license work, but this may take a little longer then we thought.

  27. Hi Dan,

    Regarding the Apache license: From my understanding, you don't have to put derived classes under the Apache License. I.e, even if you enhanced some Apache module like Ant, the enhancement can be put under any compatible license. Of course, you can't take Ant unchanged and change the license. AFAIK, you don't even need to acknowledge that you use or enhance Apache-licensed modules.

    With regards to GPL, if you add or remove terms from it, it is no longer GPL. It becomes some other license. That is what I meant. With the additional license term you proposed, you will no longer be able to say that Jade is under GPL. If I am mistaken about this, I welcome any corrections.

    Anyway, on the issue of making Jade both Apache and GPL, I'm not a lawyer, so I can't be absolutely sure that you can't do it. You may want to ask a real lawyer or ask the folks at the Free Software Foundation. I think they came up with the GPL and LGPL.

    I didn't realise you use MySQL. AFAIK, you can use the MySQL DB. But you need to be careful which version of the JDBC driver you use. The older ones are under LGPL, so should be fine. The newest version is GPL. From my understanding of how GPL works, that means any code which uses the new drivers must also be GPL. This is the reason I brought up the issue of tying the version of Jade to the license. Whatever your version is now, it is GPL. If I am not mistaken, to change to a different license, you need to change Jade to a different version number.

    Anyway, thanks for the clarification on your intentions. Do take your time on getting the license right, and good luck.

    Regards,
    Calvin Loh
  28. As I understand it, the GPL does not keep you from using it from a non-GPL work. The idea is that you cannot "link" or exclusively depend upon the GPL'ed item. So in the case of the GPL'ed mySql driver, if the application depended on it to be there in exclusion of another jdbc complient driver, then it would be a violation of the license. A real world example of a violation is using the GPL regular expression libraries in a commercial product. So, if the product allows a user to use another jdbc driver via the java define on the command line it would be ok, assuming all other licensing was adhered to like the method and means of redistribution.


  29. As I understand it, the GPL does not keep you from using it from a non-GPL work. The idea is that you cannot "link" or exclusively depend upon the GPL'ed item. So in the case of the GPL'ed mySql driver, if the application depended on it to be there in exclusion of another jdbc complient driver, then it would be a violation of the license. A real world example of a violation is using the GPL regular expression libraries in a commercial product. So, if the product allows a user to use another jdbc driver via the java define on the command line it would be ok, assuming all other licensing was adhered to like the method and means of redistribution.


  30. As I understand it, the GPL does not keep you from using it from a non-GPL work. The idea is that you cannot "link" or exclusively depend upon the GPL'ed item. So in the case of the GPL'ed mySql driver, if the application depended on it to be there in exclusion of another jdbc complient driver, then it would be a violation of the license. A real world example of a violation is using the GPL regular expression libraries in a commercial product. So, if the product allows a user to use another jdbc driver via the java define on the command line it would be ok, assuming all other licensing was adhered to like the method and means of redistribution.


  31. Hi Calvin, surprised to see someone from Singapore posting. I am surprised that anyone actually uses open source stuff here. Which company do you work for?

    Brian
    C&T Solutions
    brian_koh@ctil.com
  32. Hi Brian,

    I work for Tiertree Solutions. We are not
    exactly rolling in cash, so it makes sense
    to use open source where it fits.

    Started using Xerces, Xalan and JDom 2 jobs
    ago. It was a dot com. I suspect other
    people may also use open source under the
    cover - especially for xml programming.

    Some ex-colleagues say they have used Log4J.
    And I heard that a local hospital uses Struts
    for its web-site.

    Calvin Loh
  33. Wow! The level of reactionary java zealots has reached a new high. I simply don't understand when Java became a religion.
  34. Toby,

    I'm not sure you understand what happened here. This fellow claims to hate our product after using it extensively since version .9. There was no version .9. It was first released publicly at version 1.0 only two months ago, so how extensively could he have possibly have used it, beyond a pilot project. How could he even know enough about the product to hate it so much? I've been trying to figure this one out since I saw the post.

    Then it turns out that the guy runs a Microsoft Dot Net user group. He came onto a J2EE site and invented an inflammatory post to prevent people from downloading a product competitive to Dot net.

    I guess I should take it as a compliment if it wasn't so creepy.
  35. It seems MS and .NET zealots spare no trick in promoting the product. Play clean got dropped from their lexicon (if it ever existed.)
  36. For me it rather seems that here on the serverside there are quite some really paranoid posters.
    "he runs a dot-net forum, and talked bad about my product, The reason must be that he wants to keep the java community from trying my great stuff"

    why shouldnt someone run a dot net forum AND be also interested in java, and actually use it.

  37. The reason I think the guy made it up is that he had his information wrong.

    Also, we've got a lot of support requests since our release and a lot of people who have used the product have been in contact with us. I would expect that we would have spoken somebody who has used the product extensively, especially somebody who was having problems, but we never heard of this guy.

    Also, this is the first bit of negative feedback we've gotten. I would expect that if people were having problems we would have had indications instead of something out of the blue like this.

    But if people think this guy could be for real, I would suggest they try the product themselves and see if he's right.
  38. Point taken. I am projecting my own prejudices again, and I apologise. The whole Java vs .Net thing drives me nuts. The terribly funny thing is if you go on some of the .Net forums there is this whole C# vs VB thing going on, so I guess those guys can suffer. Although we have an Open Source vs Closed Source thing and a BEA vs IBM thing as well, so I probably shouldn't Cast Stones (tm).
  39. So, aside from the religous battle you guys have going on....Can anyone give non biased feedback on JADE(that is why we are here)?

    I have to admit, developing in J2EE for the last few years(which I prefer), I have not seen any IDE as good as VS.Net. However, I can't overcome my self defeat to know those apps will never run on anything but Windows.

    The J2EE tools community should look at VS.NET and take some lessons to make our lives a bit easier. As an architect I am having a harder time winning the time to market battle as Windows becomes cheaper, more stable, and offers a much more productive IDE.
  40. The J2EE tools community should look at VS.NET and take

    >>some lessons to make our lives a bit easier. As an
    >>architect I am having a harder time winning the time to
    >>market battle as Windows becomes cheaper, more stable,
    >>and offers a much more productive IDE.

    You should take a look. This is exactly the problem we are trying to solve.
  41. I have looked at it once, and I found that the component concept, which is advertised as a feature, is not as strong as I would expect. It seems to me that using predefined components is easy and well-supported.

    Creating new ones, however, amounts to writing tags using their library and the little documentation that exists for that. I also did not find a concept of nested component assembly, i.e. where you can build a component from other components.

    I may have missed some things, so please correct me if I am wrong.

    Christian
  42. It seems to me that using predefined components is easy >>and well-supported.


    Thanks, we have quite a lot of them so it is farily rare that a project requires a new one.

    >>Creating new ones, however, amounts to writing tags using >>their library and the little documentation that exists >>for that.

    This is documented to some extent in the user guide, although most projects are fine with the pre-existing components so we don't focus on it. What you want to do is possible and we do have one example in our example application on this. If people think this is a big deal, let us know. We will improve the documentation and also try to improve the API to make it easier. Also, if people do develop their own GUI components we would love it if they sent them to us.If they are well written, we will add them to the core product so everybody can benefit.
  43. I saw JADE and my heart skipped a beat.

    A company out of New Zealand has an OO environment they call JADE. It includes a programming language, IDE, runtime and an OO Db.

    http://www.jade.co.nz/

    I currently use it and can vouch for its usefulness as a prototyping tool because of the simplicity of the OO language + OO Db marriage. However, I wouldn't compare it to something like J2EE for industry strength systems :)

  44. We didn't know about the New Zealand product. Opps. It turns out there are a lot of products called JADE out there, which people keep pointing out to us. I hope we don't cause too much confusion.

    In terms of big systems and the J2EE: JADE is built on a strong foundation, the J2EE, so you shouldn't have a problem with industrial strength applications. We have done some big systems with it. For example: http://www.fujifilm.com with over a million hits per day. We have also done intranet systems that don't have such a high volume of users but are extremely complex from a business perspective. Each type of development has it's own challenges, but we haven't failed to deliver a working system yet to any customer.

    JADE has a lot of layers. The usage as a prototyping tool is obvious because of the GUI painting. That helps people get started quickly also. But we have tried to build it such that as you learn more and need more functionality it is there.
  45. My company has a relationship with Salmon LLC. We started using JADE before it had an extensive JSP tag library or any Dreamweaver integration (and before it had a name). These are my slightly biased opinions:

    Dreamweaver integration is a big positive for JADE, but you don't have to use DW to see the benefits of JADE's JSP tag library. It just makes development even easier. If you want you can type the tags manually and it will still be better than having a ton of Java code in your JSP.

    We are transitioning from VisualAge to Eclipse. Many vendors are providing plugins so you can work with their tools from one interface. The JADE plugin fits into the Eclipse strategy of allowing you to choose best-of-breed tools, either commerical or open-source.

    With a project in production we have seen the advantages of JADE from a maintenance standpoint. JADE's support of MVC and the fact that our JSPs don't have any in-line Java code makes it very easy to design the page then concentrate on business logic.

    We have given many demos of JADE and its Dreamweaver integration and it never fails to impress co-workers and management.

    Start using JADE and you won't go back to slogging through bloated JSPs again (unless you have to maintain them).
  46. For Joseph Grimes and anyone else :)

    I'm working to convince our group to adopt Eclipse (coming from VAJ4/WSAS4) and Tomcat -- can you perhaps drop me a line?

    I'm interested to know how/why your organization decided to jump off the IBM ship (and more importantly, how you convinced MGT that it'd be OK after you did...)

    Thx - Peter

    Peter Daugavietis
    pcprosys at msn dot com (MSN Messenger Enabled)
  47. hello,everyone!Can you help me?I am in china.Now i can not visit sourceforge.net.Can you provide a mirro site?Thanks in advance!
  48. with struts ,there are many maillist,and in August,there are more than 3000 message,and for jade,It is even hard to find a forum,or maillist.how can custom use it without any support(I means support by maillist or forum)
  49. JADE is new and the community is still forming. There is one forum on source forge at http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=180505 where most people are getting quite a bit of personal service.