Discussions

News: Forrester: IBM, Microsoft leading in Web Services, BEA Acquired?

  1. A Forrester Research Report entitled "Web Services Platform Shootout" says IBM and Microsoft have the best Web Services strategy and platforms and labels Sun Microsystems as falling behind. The report also predicted that BEA might be a target for acquisition from companies such as Sun, SAP, HP. BEA officials quickly dismissed the prediction.

    Read BEA rejects acquisition prediction on infoworld.

    Check out Web Services Platform Shootout from Forrester.

    Threaded Messages (36)

  2. I have had good experiences with WebLogic and (more than) my share of problems with iPlanet.

    Sun has been aquiring and trashing companies for the last few years (e.g. NetDynamics, Kiva).

    If in the event Sun aquires BEA, I hope the same thing doesn't happen to WebLogic.
  3. Why would HP buy BEA? They just sold their server suite to Oracle. Buying BEA would be a fairly large acquision for Sun given their market capitalization of both companies. It makes sense for SAP to support all app servers.
  4. HP would acquire BEA so that Carly Fiorina can destroy the culture and creativity of yet another successful company.
  5. I certainly hope that doesn't happen. The fact that BEA isn't constantly trying to ram new HW into your company is a major asset in my opinion. That is one of the primary reasons I like BEA. Also, they are over the .NET thing, they know it isn't going anywhere so they plan to coexist.

    I haven't used WebSphere in years, but I find it hard to believe that the web service stuff in WebSphere could be better than what BEA has in the 7.1 JAX-RPC impl + Workshop.

    SAP should get over itself as an App Integration player. Its glory days are over and nobody is going to want to let it rule the world again. They need to support J2EE via JCA period. Not just JCA for their mySAP app server.

    Doesn't seem like HP would be interested based on what they have done recently.

    Sun? That seems possible. Do they have the $$ for that though?

    Seeing that I don't have the $895 to purchase this paper I can't really comment on the details of Forrester's analysis, however.

    I personally think it would suck if BEA sold out to a hw company, then all the major app server vendors would be extremely biased on hw (IBM, Microsoft, Sun/HP).
  6. I think Miss Cleo is much more accurate in her predictions then Forrester Research.

    --
    Dimitri
  7. The last comment of the report is the most interesting of all, and has the most validity from a layman's point of view:

    "...CIOs need to settle on a single "Java giant" rather than having separate infrastructure commitments with BEA, IBM, Oracle, and Sun..."

       Regardless of how "good" or "bad" the products are, it is becoming painfully obvious that it is going to take a LOT MORE work to be able to drop J2EE applications into any one of them at will, hence the accuracy of said quotation.
       In other words, Java has gone full circle in that it may be a "write once - run anywhere" solution, but it really needs to be "write once - run anywhere - with quality" solution. That's why companies are tired of dealing with different JVM's from each of these providers, or different development IDEs.
        Java as a product needs to be standardized, and the only way to do that effectively is to reduce the number of products available to the industry so that the only differences in the product are the way they are implemented, not architected.
        The free hand of Adam Smith is moving towards consolidation. I hope that the best product wins!

    Basil.

  8. "...CIOs need to settle on a single "Java giant" rather than having separate infrastructure commitments with BEA, IBM, Oracle, and Sun..."

    I could not disagree more with this statement.

    One of the key advantages of the standards based platform is that you are able to easily integrate products from different vendors. Its not that you would do this for fun - it is often a necessity. It may be necessary to leverage the advantages of best-of-breed offerings - it is also necessary to integrate with existing systems and infrastructure that you have.

    The vendor selling the whole stack - ie the "Java Giant" - has an interest in pushing... their whole stack. So, its little surprise that their products are harder to replace with 3rd party offerings. Its also little surprise that they will be trying to shoe-horn their other products (or consultants) in the door at every opportunity.

    The vendor that is able to slot into your existing infrastructure with the least of fuss is more valuable than a single-source solution. Also, the vendor that is easiest to replace if they fail to deliver is almost always guaranteed to give you (the customer) the best service and deliver the lowest risk.

    I think that the days of "strategic vendor relationships" in IT are past. The frequency of mergers and consolidations means that the strategic partnership has only a small window of value - until the next merger when you then inherit their strategic partnership and their vendors products...
    There will always be a mix of platforms and products - and the strategic relationship less useful, while the more flexible, easily integratable: more useful.


    -Nick
  9. When we look back on right now from the vantage point of a couple of years hence, we will say that the dominant trend was re-verticalization. I say this without relish, of course, but there is no point in pretending it is otherwise.
  10. Hiya Basil, how's it going? email me at dstadler66 at hotmail dot com, I have some gossip.

    I agree with you about market consolidation, except that I believe it's done except for the shouting. The winners are BEA, IBM, JBoss, and M$.NET. At least until the next turn of the dice in the distributed objects hosting market. JINI mebbe? Unlikely as it would seem now.

    BEA and M$ vie for the most usable product. M$ has a surface advantage until you have to dip into MFC/COM+. IBM has the financial and consulting muscle, and JBoss leads on price and (perhaps) acceptance in the developer community (Linux? In their Dreams). The other pretenders haven't a prayer except maybe for Oracle.
  11. Here's another thought (I'll be the first to admit it's a long shot) - Dell acquires BEA. Why?

    - BEA would give them a full application stack and allow them to compete with IBM as a full-service provider.
    - Dell would be more able to compete in the server market space - the space that they've targeted for the growth in the company.
    - The other area they've targeted is services - might play well into that.
    - BEA fits well into their strategy of being on multiple platforms.

    Of course, Oracle could also step up as well, if nothing else then to consolidate the space and become, instantly, the largest application server software provider. But who knows....

    Just some wild thoughts...thoughts?

    Damian
  12. I would recomend the same though. Dell and Weblogic make a good combination. It also help Dell to kick some idiots from BEA Systems, especially from Boulder office. I have dreamed about merging BEA with an industry leader a long time Ago. BEA have good products but they are not good in business, There are hell lot of idiots in BEA which make it one of the worst in current market. BEA need a fresh look and feel, which show up the power of Weblogic App server and kick their other idiotic products and idiots managers. Dell will be a nice candidate to boost Weblogic app server

  13. Goodness!!! At some point we had n n vs ms, now we have T Q vs BEA.
  14. Not that I want to be labelled the Defender of WebLogic, but how can you possibly consider yourself qualified to say that there are a great deal of idiotic people in BEA?

    BEA's record speaks for itself. This company, along with the other J2EE Container producers, obviously have in their employ some of the sharpest minds in the world for their particular field, it's not exactly an easy thing to make a Container and sell it to the Fortune 500 on a consistent basis.

    Bothers me when I hear people brushing off proven companies... besides, there's are idiots in every company, what's the point of mentioning that you know about it?

    Back to the thread -- I believe that the ball is in BEAs court on this one. They can go on as they are for an indefinite period of time. It's not like they are ecstatic about their bottom line at the moment, but at the same time, there are companies out there who would kill to be in BEAs position right now.

    Although there is nothing shameful about joining forces with another company to forward your product, like IBM and Red Hat did; why is that a big deal?

    Basil
  15. You're absolutely right - the ball is in BEA's court at the moment and there's nothing wrong with holding their current position and remaining independent.

    Except that they probably have the most value right now - meaning that as we go forward, IBM will start to erode the space from one end, and commodification of the application server market will erode BEA from the other end.

    Therefore, the board of BEA may decide that if they are going to sell out, best to do it now before their value erodes further. I guess it just depends on whether the board of BEA believes they can continue to grow revenue through their new tool and developer-focused approach.

    Just my 2 cents,

    Damian
  16. How Idiots can make a company worst?

    Answer: I was working at a client place,
    Client: A famous Californian firm, industry leaders in their business. Billions of dollar capital worth. After fucked by Microsoft ASP,ADO, VB technology, they decided to move to Java. Wonderfull decision!!. They decided to follow BEA Application frame work. Money is not a problems there, Quality is the their expectation. As an Ex senior BEA consultant , Sales man decided to put me and another candidate with a senior achitect in Client place, Client paying $350/hour/head + hotel + car. Sales man is damn happy, cuz he made millions $$$ sale . But there was an idiot. He is my boss's boss from Boulder, overall he has the power to make decision cuz of he is in a big place of BEA management networks.
         After 4 months project went live after I worked 58 hours/week. finally he fucked up and BEA is out of the the Client. If anynody listen to the way he speak to a client, Dudes believe me, you will kick him out of office, cuz he is that much arrogant.

        After 3 months, In Germany Hannover, A bench mark deal between IBM, Oracle and BEA for a new vendor who is trying to introduce middleware J2EE technology into their IBM mainframe junks( IMS DB,DC and Cobol :)) . Client is not at all aware about J2EE. But Believe me, even though english is bad in Germany, they are not fools like some managers in US firms. They like to see everything in functional before they make a deal of a services. They are doing one month long bench marking with bigggg sun and ibm hard ware with live online transaction facilities. cool huh!!. Nobodies Bench mark result won't be accepted their, cuz they are not fools. So by default IBM had big time, cuz their webspehere is not yet meeting industry standard J2EE specifications. But their are trying very hard with marketing logic like buy one get one free. BEA didn't have anything to give free.
    Landed in Hanover in a friday night, representing BEA USA..... Slept in marriot Hannover and met some BEA guys and IBM guys. IBM guys are very professionals, in the way of dealing with Client they are nice and professionals. They have very good back from other offices in terms of technical and non technical helps.
        But Finally, we could able to win the bench mark, another million $$$ sale to BEA.
        Back to USA. I got laid offffffffffffffffff, reason BEA would like to keep only highly talented people, but BEA used to give me 500 new shares every six months for my performance.
        Laid off, I told that idiots, my managers boss, thanks and all the best with your Boulder business.
        I started new project with another customer, in Los angeles with $125/ hour in my pocket.
        Again Thanks to BEA for making me a confident man about my ability and knowledge.
        BEA Don't have any products as they Claim

    Tuxedo from AT& T and Bell LAB
    WLS from Weblogic
    Portal from a Bosten Company
    Work Shop from a spit of Microsoft

    BEA could buy some of these good things cuz of they had money from dot com boom.
        They don't have enough good brain to manage or update the technology from the level what they were or they don't have enough professionals in management to make creative decision.
    Examples take one prodict BEA portal
    1. initially it was personalization and commerce server with Rational rose attached
    2. Later merged together
    3.Then Renamed
    4.Introduced a EBBC
    5.But basically BEA don't change anything from its basic architecture, Still it is an application Hitting Database minimum 30 times to bring up a portal page, is it the latest discovery from BEA in Enterprise technology??????

    A company need , talented professional managers, talented engineers, good products and good support from cusumers to grow and being number one.
        BEA is titanic made from snow flakes, and it is sinking.

    No more comments on this thread.

    Good bye
     
     
        
       
          
  17. Looks like the management at BEA is not as idiotic as you thought, they got rid of a foul-mouthed, cynical little bastard like you, didn't they?

    Basil.
  18. Dude watch you language.
         It stinks so bad and brush your teeth and clean you ass next time before you come to professional talk. I was talking about a reality and you are talking about some thing like, you don't know who is your dad!!, Isn't it funny and shitting in your mouth?.
         
       Wake up man, get educated and face the reality.

    Maintaining portal application which bought from another company and making more than 30 database hit to show one page in net and telling me industry leader??.

    YOU or your company wanna be an industry leader, follow the steps below.

    Go back to School
    Learn how to behave
    Learn how to use mouth wash before you open dirty mouth again.
    Learn How to use latest technology to improve the performance and satisfy customer
    Learn the basic meaning of the word "Quality" from Economics
    Tech your boss, how to talk and behave in front of Customers
    Stop looking into business with ur blind racist way of business
    Believe in technology instead of stealing and buying business
    Spend more than 8 hours in office and work with software instead of dreaming about your dirty girl friend's ass.

  19. Well you certainly put a lot of thought into your statement, TQ!
  20. I would take the $895 and head for Vegas, much better money spent. Forrester has only consolidate well documented information over the past year so unless you haven't been hearing from vendors about web services then you should find a new career. I think forrester really misses the point on security and identity management being critical foundation services. Anybody can and should today implement using xml and soap but web services has a way to go.

    I doubt BEA is aquired by Sun or HP as it should take the Cisco model of aquiring small companies to enhance their platform. Dell has no business buying any software company, that would end up hurting BEA sales. Look at how IBM is strategically buying companies to enhance security, directories, and integration capabilities around Websphere. BEA needs to improve the platforms reliability and increase the capabilities with new features to support broader functionality without significantly increasing the price. People buy BEA because they know it will work and the decision is almost a no-brainer but the competition will catch-up and it will be a matrix game of features in the future.

    To the ex-bea consultant, clean up your thoughts into concise issues. Every company has liars/cheaters in the marketing chain and if you trust them wholly your only at fault yourself. Companies fail to implement vendor products because they don't understand them technically and believe what vendors/integration companies tell them. It's the companies own fault for not asking the right questions and undestanding the real issues.
  21. I never say the marketing and consulting business is 100 % clear and the way all technical people expect. All I said the reason behind BEA becaming bad in current market situation is the problems BEA have with their business model. BEA dreams about a lot. It was nice to have a rented BMW car in San francisco during the Dot com time. Some company followed a business model with 100 % dreams. Even BEA was not bad in that time to dream a lot. They decided to challenge all big guys like IBM,SUN,Microsoft. I am not a fan of IBM or Microsoft products and its qualities. I like the way IBM and Microsoft doing the business. Their mode of business is 70% better than BEA. They could even buy a company like BEA. .NET guys who believe still dll and stored procedure is the brain of enterprise computing could able to sell 1000s of license even in bad market, that is cuz of their business model. All big guys do the same thing, buy small company and label it with a big name. BEA also did the same thing. But BEA management or technical team was not good enough to take that momentum as like Cisco or Microsoft did. But BEA never delayed to challenge others with a dot com made money account. Even I have seen they used to tell very proudly, WE ARE ONE BILLION MONEY COMPANY? Did they ever had a sense they are talking in the same stage where other companies like SUN,ORACLE,IBM or microsoft have 20 time more money and a group of talented management and engineering team with them.
    Forrester also telling the same fact. Fact is a fact and it is a reality.
  22. <TQ>
    I am not a fan of IBM or Microsoft products and its qualities. I like the way IBM and Microsoft doing the business. Their mode of business is 70% better than BEA
    </TQ>

    I disagree, I think that their mode of business is 75% better.

    ;-|

    Thanks,

    Basil.
  23. TQ: "But BEA ... used to tell very proudly, WE ARE ONE BILLION MONEY COMPANY? Did they ever had a sense they are talking in the same stage where other companies like SUN,ORACLE,IBM or microsoft have 20 time more money and a group of talented management and engineering team with them."

    First, I missed the part of your curriculum vitae that listed the billion dollar companies that you had personally founded. Don't worry, well over seven billion of us have the same lack of experience.

    Regarding talented management and engineering, well, I will not speak poorly of any of those companies, but BEA still has some fire in their belly, which (if I were one of those "20 time more" companies), I'd trade a lot of talent to get back. Those "20 time more" companies have more employees than some European nations, and yet "little" BEA is still in the lead by a long shot in the app server market. ;-)

    My buddy Twain might say, "The news of [BEA's] death is greatly exaggerated."

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  24. Yeah. This is completely silly. BEA isn't perfect, but I would rather have to occasionally hire BEA consultants than hire a slew of fulltime IBM weenies. While it's a great money model for IBM, it's also way too top heavy for smaller->midsize companies.

    I haven't seen all the products from BEA, but they seem to be trying to do some things in Java that can't be all bad. They DID have j2ee1.3 usable way before anyone else, like a year before, and I've had to modify none of my EJBs when moving from 6.1 to 7.0. That's pretty darned impressive considering not everything was flushed out yet. We're not doing giant object graphs with EBJ2.0, but every little bit helps.

    Forrester is just putting this stuff out to sell more talk. This is the same stuff any other source of media does. Make big impressions so people will want to listen. That's what is required to rise above the cacophony of the marketplace.

    One thing that Microsoft is just STARTING to get into is clustering. BEA has been doing clustering for ages, and I'd trust them more than I ever would Microsoft.

    BEA isn't perfect, but it's not going away any time soon. I'm not an employee of BEA, in fact I haven't been 100% pro-BEA myself, but the stupidity of this is enormous.

    Steve

  25. Cameron,

    <Q "The news of [BEA's] death is greatly exaggerated."/Q>

    Bea stock is down from $80 something to $6 something. Open Source alternatives exist already in form of JBoss and Jonas and more coming (with books published). How do you feel now when they are getting closer? How long before there is an OOS alternative for your own product? How long before they have destroyed a whole industry?

    I remember you were so staunch supporter of OSS..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
     
  26. Rolf: "Bea stock is down from $80 something to $6 something."

    That means that more people have been trying to sell it than buy it since it was at the $80 level -- simple market economics. It's higher now than at the beginning of '99, which is when the bubble started to really grow. In other words, they have actually weathered the storm quite well, even doing a little better than Sun.

    Since I am a direct investor in neither, I'm not sure why you are quoting stock prices to me. Surely you don't think that they were doing 14x as well a year or two ago, just because their stock price was 14x as high? If you do, then I understand why you would equate their lower price with their inevitable demise, which would basically indicate that 99% of companies in the western world are about to fold, with the notable exception being Microsoft, which despite selling less units, manages to keep increasing its revenue and profits ;-).

    Rolf: "Open Source alternatives exist already in form of JBoss and Jonas and more coming (with books published). How do you feel now when they are getting closer?"

    Again, I'm not sure what you're babbling on about, other than to provide yet another pointless negative opinion. I use WebLogic, WebSphere, Oracle IAS, iPlanet, Orion, Resin, JBoss, etc. (Haven't looked at Jonas since like '99, but who knows, maybe in the future.)

    I do enjoy WebLogic more than some of the other servers, but that's because its quality is often higher and I also have more experience with it. For many Servlet/JSP tasks though, Resin is still my favorite, and it comes with source ;-)

    Rolf: "How long before there is an OOS alternative for your own product? How long before they have destroyed a whole industry?"

    I don't know. Parts of what our products do have been done before in Open Source. In the market that we compete in, software quality and high availability is king, and price is less a deciding factor. We don't run into open source being used much in production on the servers that our products are deployed to, but it is bound to happen some day. (Now that I think of it, we have several customers that I know are deploying Coherence on JBoss, two of which commented on the recent Coherence thread on TheServerSide.com, so I guess I'm not correct.)

    Rolf: "I remember you were so staunch supporter of OSS.."

    I'm flattered, although I have never considered myself a "staunch supporter". I know that I have said that I applaud open source, closed source, proprietary, commercial, educational research, GNU/GPL, FreeBSD, Apache, whatever. Despite my dislike of their ".NET strategy", I'm even a pretty big proponent of Microsoft software, when and where it makes sense. I think that software has the ability to improve our world, and that there is room for a lot of ideas and approaches even within the little niche we call "the software market".

    Now why, pray tell, are you trying to goad me? I thought I told you to go watch some Stewart Smiley.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  27. Web Services[ Go to top ]

    Ignoring all the hype of what web services could possibly (although unlikely) become one day, what is their relevance in today's market place? In other words, why even give a shit who is the leader in implementing web service platform...?

    We've all played around with WDSL and SOAP by now, yes it was possible to invoke that service via HTTP, now what? What was the great gain again, and why did I need to buy software from the web service platform leader to do this simple HTTP invocation?

    I can now claim I have two little pieces of software integrated via web services (woowoo, marketing guys just came in their pants) but I could have accomplished the same using a dozen different technologies.

    /T
  28. Web Services[ Go to top ]

    Thomas,
    I agree with your sentiment.
    This sort of marketing hype is killing the technology in first place.
    Investing money on latest technology hype without any significant ROI, is what makes business wary of further investment.
    Most of the applications out there could have been implemented with just core techologies like C++, Java, Servlets, HTTP, RPC/CORBA, Tuxedo alone.
    I would rather see that money on my paycheck than on going down the drain on useless hype.
  29. Web Services[ Go to top ]

    "Most of the applications out there could have been implemented with just core techologies like C++, Java, Servlets, HTTP, RPC/CORBA, Tuxedo alone."

    Sure, its not the cababilities of webservices that is exciting -Its the STANDARDIZATION of that capability!
    So, instead of rewriting an app every time it's technological environment changes -companies can just invoke the existing app.

    Invocation vs. rewriting is meaningful and NOT hype.

    Its companies like IBM and Microsoft that over-emphasize the marketing of their products rather than their engineering that is truly deadly.
    Matt
  30. Web Services[ Go to top ]


    Web services are nothing but a wheel reinvented. Send some XML messages over HTTP and you have web services, big deal. How is it more advanced than CORBA, for example? How is it more interoperable? The answer is that Microsoft is part of it. There is nothing in web services itself that make it any better than CORBA...same problems in a new package.


  31. Web Services[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    Web Services are indeed nothing new. Most companies have been exposing XML service APIs for a few years now.

    I am however a great believer in standards so it is great to see SOAP, UDDI and WSDL embraced. However it is doubtful they will change the world.

    I have found in practice that SOAP is great if you wish to expose quickly a service API to a remote distributed system. In these cases CORBA or RMI would be real overkill. However if I need to integrate systems more tightly in terms of security/transactions I would look more at CORBA.

    David
  32. Web Services[ Go to top ]


     Do you know Esperanto or Klingon ?
  33. Web Services[ Go to top ]

    "Its companies like IBM and Microsoft that over-emphasize the marketing of their products rather than their engineering that is truly deadly."

    It is sad that in most companies, it is not the engineers that decide which product to go with.

    Product decisions are often made by CIOs and other middle managers who are influenced by the sales and marketing tactics of the companies that can afford to throw lot of money in that effort.

    As long as such practice continues, we'll be in a vicious cycle that produces lot of vaporware with a sporadic event of one or two really good products coming out.

    After Java and Servlets, I don't see any great leap in the software scene. Also, look at the Eclipse platform, it's the next most promising technology.

    You got to give IBM credit for that, I hear most of the work is being done by its Canadian outfit.
  34. Web Services[ Go to top ]

    About a month ago I was saying the same thing.

    I agree that there are a number of technologies out there that handle inter process communication better (e.g., CORBA).

    Problem with CORBA is less experienced programmers are intimidated by ORBs and Microsoft never embraced it.

    I?ve been playing around with web services a fair amount lately. It isn?t there yet, but I am now convinced that it will be the great enabler of service-based computing for average companies.

    I?d agree that the IDL in web services sucks (WSDL) when you compare it to IDL in something like CORBA. And XML Schema is pretty odd on its edges. But you can make interop work with just about anything as long as you focus on the schema and WSDL (as opposed to trusting you vendor to generate interoperable stuff for you) and don?t try to get too fancy.

    Also, using HTTP to marshal stuff is obviously less than ideal, but you can still use SOAP, schema, wsdl etc. over any MOM (e.g., JMS).

    I believe that web services have a ways to go, but also think that now is the right time to enter the water for most companies that don?t already have an App Integration infrastructure/can?t afford something really fancy (e.g., webMethods). I wouldn?t do anything mission critical, but would start with a prototype and then deploy something small to start the learning process going (I personally have found the learning curve pretty steep).

    Anyway, I can see your point, but I truly believe that resistance is futile.
  35. Why would HP want to acquire BEA? They made a huge fuss about getting out of the app server business just a few months ago. Granted, they're bundling BEA with HP UX systems, but that doesn't mean anything.
  36. I anticipate BEA will have challenges in staying profitable in 2-3 years. App Servers can/will become a commodity and companies will no longer pay the big $$ for app servers. They key will be in the services and tools market. Will BEA's tools stack up to the competition? My first sentence gives my answer away....

    One of the key values of BEA from a business standpoint is their existing customer base... Someone needs to capitalize on that before it shrinks....

    Don't get me wrong, I think BEA has done a nice job with their app server and they have sharp talent.... I'm just anticipating the shifts in market strategies.

    liquid
  37. Seems to me, that these marketing-research guys have to make some more than obscure statements to make persuade people to give 895$ for a report, that consists mostly of trivial statements. This is the second report (there recently has been one by Gartner about OpenSource-Software) which just tries to make facts, not reporting about them. I do not know who pays these guys but to me it looks like they are owned by ibm and microsoft...