Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?

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News: Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?

  1. Sun Microsystems has cut 4,400 of its 39,400 employees, in its second major round of cuts. Scott McNealy, Sun's chief executive, said he was slow to cut jobs because of the difficulty in replacing talent once the economy rebounds.

    Such a quick recovery is now seen as unlikely. For the three months ended Sept. 29, Sun lost $111 million, or 4 cents per share, compared with a loss of $180 million, or 6 cents per share, in the same period last year.

    What will this mean for Java?

    Information on the cuts:

    AP: Sun Microsystems to Cut 4,400 Jobs

    Reuters: Sun Micro Cutting Jobs as Returns to Loss

    TechWeb: Sun Cuts Jobs As Losses Resume

    Threaded Messages (216)

  2. Guess they're moving some work to sweatshop contractors in
    third world countries, like Spain.
    Thanx a lot, Globalisation!
  3. I dont think Java is in trouble, Java is actually thriving I would be more worried about .Not future since Linux is chipping away windows market share. Java's cross platform, stability and scablity is making it grow. In the long run I would like to see Java be open sourced and currently that is were it is heading.
  4. Classifying Spain as third world clearly tell us you are a _highly_ educated person. I strongly doubt you can even say where is geographically without the help of an atlas.
  5. Hola Alberto,
    s? muy bien donde est? Espa?a... justo debajo de mis
    pi?s. En mi misma y deprimida ciudad (Bcn) todo tipo
    de ingenieros, 'highly educated', trabajan un elevado
    n?mero de horas por un sueldo de repartidor de pizza.
    Y ?so es justo lo que yo llamar?a 'tercermundista': un
    pa?s donde s?lo la gente de ventas, marketing y gerencia
    puede aspirar a un sueldo decente, ya no para comprar
    ferraris o bangs'n'olufsen, sino simplemente pagar un
    alquiler o comprar verduras frescas.
  6. Call us third world or whatever you like but with 1 USD = about 2 AUD we in Australia are happy to take USD whenever you want to spend some.

    Don't worry, java will survive but we might have to sublimate some of our huge egos, rather than everyone spending time building large numbers of open source solutions to every problem lets try to create a smaller number of really great (but still competing) open source solutions that can whip M$.not
  7. Spain? Let me guess.

    North of Morocco, east of Portugal, southwest of France, south of the UK, west of Italy.

    Good enough?
  8. Moving provision of services to a different locale isn't as simple as it sounds.

    You think so many US software firms cluster in Silicon Valley (instead of spreading out into other US areas) because it's cheap in Silicon Valley! Ha! And look at the competitor areas for software development in the US: New York, Boston, Chicago... are these places known within the US for their cheap workforce and low costs?

    For decades it has been true that financial institutes (to give a non-IT example) could have moved their workforces from the extremely expensive metropolitan areas where they cluster (City of London, Manhattan, etc), and run their operations out where rents are cheap and quality of life is better. But actually service industries cluster in certain areas where they have the labour pool, resources, infrastructure and inertia that they need.


    Sean
    PS: and on the other thread... from where I am in New Zealand finding Spain is easy. It's straight down.
  9. Don: "Spain? Let me guess. ... south of the UK"

    I will assume you meant England, as Gibraltar is still technically part of the UK, right?

    ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  10. Moving provision of services to a different locale isn't as simple as it sounds.

    Do you think so many US software firms cluster in Silicon Valley (instead of spreading out into other US areas) because it's cheap in Silicon Valley! Ha! And look at the competitor areas for software development in the US: New York, Boston, Chicago... are these places known within the US for their cheap workforce and low costs?

    For decades it has been true that financial institutes (to give a non-IT example) could have moved their workforces from the extremely expensive metropolitan areas where they cluster (City of London, Manhattan, etc), and run their operations out where rents are cheap and quality of life is better. But actually service industries cluster in certain areas where they have the labour pool, resources, infrastructure and inertia that they need.


    Sean
    PS: and on the other thread... from where I am in New Zealand finding Spain is easy. It's straight down.
  11. Globalization, not "globalization"... you know about your own language as much as about Spain...

    SUN?s trouble will not even be noticed in J2EE standards...as a matter of fact it can even have a good efect in the JCP....
  12. Globalization?

    I think you'll find that the English word is globalisation.

    And I think you missed the point about the third world country. Cesar, I suspect is Italian, and to them, Spain is indeed a third world country.

    :-)
  13. http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=globalization

    Another one... You know as much your language as about italy and spain... What a pity...I used to remember this forum to be a place to share ideas...

    Anyhow...JCP is saved even if SUN?s place lightens...two many major vendors are already involved in the standards...
  14. If you look in an American doctionary what do you expect?
  15. For the smart guy prowen prowen (those aliases which hide your real name... really), globalisation or globalization are both correct, in British English the first is more common (commoner in ultra correct English :-) ), and the second in American English (like analyse/analyze, and many others).
    By the way I don't think Italians think Spain is third world, simply Cesar is having a bad day.
    Greetings to all and long life to Java, under Sun's auspices or someone else's.
  16. I'm actually spanish... that's why I know what I'm
    talking about. That's why I deem my country to be
    'third world'.
    But I didn't really want to hurt anybody's feelings,
    though it seems I have. I would like to apologize.
  17. Cesar, no need to apologize, you're simply misinformed. I suggest you think twice before posting such sweeping generalizations concerning third worlds. Ignorance isn't bliss in this forum.

    For the rest of you: Pot, let me introduce you to kettle. Your retorts included numerous typographical mistakes and terrible sentence structure. I urge you to proof read your posts prior to slandering others, hypocrites.

    I don't see why cutting 11% of Sun's workforce means they will eventually file for Chapter 11 (Dell announced in May they would cut jobs). Sun isn?t necessarily struggling, just reorganizing. I believe (hope) they will continue to drive (fund) Java for many years to come.
  18. <quote>
    I urge you to proof read your posts prior to slandering others, hypocrites.
    </quote>

    Ditto. Try "proofread", not "proof read".
  19. Zing! I stand corrected.
  20. "Proof read" is correct.[ Go to top ]

    "Proof read" is also correct. Arguably, the concatenated version is incorrect, as it is one of those Americanisations that plague the English language these days.

    The "proof" is a sheet printed for the purposes of verification prior to doing a big print run. Someone would read the proof prior to publication, correcting any typographical errors and so on. This was the proof read step, and the person who did this was the "proof reader". Webster, being the lazy sod he was, omitted the space.

    Of course, unless you are physically reading a proof, you are not proof reading. You are merely checking your work for typographical errors. As you are presumably engaged also in checking for other types of errors, and possibly rephrasing your work for better effect, you are actually engaged in the process of editing.
  21. Cezar,
    You seem to imply Globalization is bad. I would say there are good things and bad things about globalization. For the good things, checkout Made in... in every day product you use and we all know why they are affordable.

    The big problems at Sun Microsystems is not globalization, not java. But it is the economy(shall I say global economy) and competition(not from third world country). I am sure there are other problems too.

    This is just my opinion.

    Ganesh
  22. "For the rest of you: Pot, let me introduce you to kettle. "

    You are a nerd! How many times have you borrowed and used that literary joke? Any creativity?
  23.  >So far MS is doing fine.

    >>Just look at their latest financial results.

    Heh lets put this in a right way ... now MS are sweating bullets due to Linux Redhat 8.0 and Mandrake 9.0 desktop release. We know MS cash cow is desktop and office package it never had a hold in Server market. So now Linux in desk top is fully mature. But I am not shocked by ur reply this has been MS history

    First they ignore you
    then they laugh at you
    then they fight you

    This has been true with Java and now with linux.
    cheers.
  24. You guys are a bit PC over this third world issue. I've heard the expression used a couple of times about France. I work for France Telecom and in a recent meeting we were talking about technology and one of the managers said that 'we (the French) are about 12 months behind the first world'.

    I've also heard people in Sun say that Grenoble is like Europe's Bangalore. Highly trained and competent engineers who are paid much lower salaries compared to The Valley. I'm sure they see Italy and Spain in much the same light.
  25. SUN is a well established company like IBM. SUN has consistently lost money for more than a year. It may well have <BR>
    <B> *** warning a thought is about to be expressed that while many will take as if I am stating fact is just a random thought. NOTE use of phrase "may well have"</B>
    <br>
    lost more money then Spain spends on IT business technology in a given year.
    <br> *** end warning ***<br>

    SUN is in trouble, JAVA should go Open source and the consolidation is only begining in JAVA sector. Will not be long when you can go to one place to buy app server, IDE, JVM, Database drivers in a packaged suite. Right now you can get all this as pieces easily enough. It just remains for someone to buy them all together. This will be open source's main competitor in the future.
  26. .Not is not portable. End of debate, end of discussion, all other points are mute. You can't run the DOD or IRS on PC's.
  27. Sun needs to redefine its vision, chart a new strategy.

    It seems that the progress of Sun is linked more or less directly to the shares of its hardware products. I wd advise the head honchos of Sun, that as the pioneers of a gem like JAVA, and then the J2EE, they shd command respect by bringing out products (both HW and SW) that are leaders in the pack. Look into the market, find out what is that SUN JVM lacks, find out what the IAS lacks, that makes it second to competetion. And then improve, improve and improve.

    It is definitely good to throw yr weight behind open source initiatives, but at the same time, do not rest by saying "we support open", u need to put more aggresiveness in yr efforts to win the market. Also, make some arrangemnets so that the JAVA brand be associated with a different entity (say a subsidiary), so that SUN's hardware products market performance issues, dont cast its shadow on JAVA.

    All JAVA enthusiasts wd definitely love the . in the .com and hope it stays that way.

    cheers...
  28. Cesar,

    <
    Come come. If you're going to apologise then at least do it in English :-)
  29. Only a spaniard could say nowadays that Spain is third world...

    If in Spain IT salaries are lower than other 'first world' countries, it's because of our faults: IT professionals in Spain do not fight for our rights. That's all.

    I have the chance to work with IT professionals worldwide, and people's skills have nothing to do with races, origins and cultures. But obviously, it's easier to find a genious in 1000 million chineses than in 40 million spaniards...

    Diego
  30. Hey, I am also Spanish and I think that you lost the point about what 3th world means and by the way, this is not the place for saying those things, as far as I know this is a serious place.

    I have been working in different countries for some time and I agree that in Spain it is not easy to earn good money but leaving in Spain is wonderful for A LOT OF REASONS.
  31. Hey Java is not in Trouble!
    As a matter of fact just recently I hit the big time with my Java deployment. I'm rich! I'm rich!! I'm filthy rich!!!
  32. Here is an excerpt from an article I just read about Globalisation in India.

    "The recent trend of US dollar depreciating against every major currency, even the rupee, has come as an unexpected blow to the services companies. And understandably so, as bulk of their revenues is in US dollars. Ironically, the software services companies are one of the important reasons for the strong rupee today.

     So what's the way out for the domestic software companies? Economists believe the most strongest defence against the strong rupee is globalisation of production, development centres in case of software companies.

    Having build the critical mass, the biggies of the domestic software sector could opt to set up development centres in countries in other emerging markets which have cheap labour and much weaker currencies.

    That's exactly what the Japanese manufacturing companies did in the 1980s to counter the negative impact of yen appreciating against the dollar. "

              Globalisation is coming to your very own town folks, whichever part of this world you might live in. I think it would be smart to accept and leverage this phenomena than to fight back.
    W.
  33. Well boys and girls, this is why we need to mix a dash common-sense with our super-duper code. If only the TSS engineers had anticipated that not all commments deserve to be treated equally and in real-world we do need to mod-down some posters (like in /.) There are very few insightful comments in this thread while most are incendiary rants.

    So how about doing a port of /. code to J2EE ? I volunteer to put in my time if it enables me to see meaningful discussions as opposed to this !!!

  34. Well it depends on which parts of italy you compare to spain. Your statement might be true with the southern part of italy.

    And when you talk about sweatshops in IT I think more about india and not about countries who are in the european union.

    Frank
  35. Cezar apparently lives in Barcelona and if he wants to classify his country as "third world" to make a point about the poor rate of pay in his country for programmers, then that is his right.

    With globalization I think that we may well find that different industries become third world industries regardless of country. For example if Canadian companies outsource to india then Canada suddenly becomes full of relatively (underline relatively) poverty stricken programmers! Globalization is changing the dynamic of econonmies and industries world wide.

    Having said all that a modern western liberal capitalist democracies such as Spain, the U.S. or the UK (where I live)
    are not in the forceable future going to become as poverty stricken as 'real third world' countries such as Bangladesh or Somalia.

    But in the future globalization is going to make such distinctions harder to draw on a geographical basis. No doubt there will be Java sweat shops in Iraq sometime soon if there aren't already.

    I don't see Java dieing out anytime soon but don't be surprised if your job is taken by an Indian (no I'm not refering to native americans, I mean Indians that come from the country India (its a sub-continent you know) - leave your country more you might learn something!)

    Damn, I am spelling Globalization with a z (pronounced 'zed') - well that's globalisation for you.

    Am I the only person who thinks java.awt.Color should be spelt java.awt.Colour ?

    Michael
  36. I don?t know the exact definition of third world, but I understand that you were complaining about the low wages in Spain (your country). Anyway, It is foolish to discuss this subject in this forum.

    But we are missing the real point: How can we increase the wealth of the java community, or at least how to decrease the unemployment of our community.

    It is sad that many people think that closing the borders is the solution. But it is a futile solution, the companies sooner or later will move to cheaper or more convenient locations, as sun has done moving some work to India.

    Ideas are welcome.


  37. <Q>
    It is sad that many people think that closing the borders is the solution. But it is a futile solution, the companies sooner or later will move to cheaper or more convenient locations, as sun has done moving some work to India.

    Ideas are welcome.
    </Q>

    Not really. Software development is primarily a service industry, where proximity and close interaction with the customer is of importance. (It is similar to the situation with dentists.)

    In America, the primary organizations opposing the H1-B system are the Federation for American Immigration Reform (www.fairus.org) and NumbersUSA.com. Both groups operate on the principle that a nation can and should do its own work.

    Glen
  38. Going global...[ Go to top ]

       The only problem I have with globalisation(sp?) is when companies do it at the expense of somebody's livelihood. It's one thing to have market forces ( like the recession we are currently struggling to get out of ) decimate salaries, but it's a whole other thing when you have a market that already compensates companies for the big salaries they are paying American workers.
       In other words, if a product can be sold for a sum of money in which the company can make a healthy profit and the employees are paid well enough so that they have a decent living, why move work overseas? The answer is obviously that businesses will always strive to save a dollar as it is their responsibility to do so. My argument is that it should become law to extend a business's responsibility to the point where they have to actually give a damn about the people they employ.
       The USA should draw the line and say "enough is enough". This means moving towards a more socially responsible economic model whereby people are given more power in the workforce. It's a bad day for us when an American Java Developer should have to accept a salary of $5000/year simply because a company has somebody in a foreign country who is willing to work for that sweatshop wage. My hope is that these foreign workers will soon demand higher salaries, eventually making American workers more marketable. The other solution is that these foreign workers get Green Cards and come live in the US to do their work so that they too can be undergo the same living expenses that their american counterparts must experience. Then maybe $5000/year won't go as far as it did back when your house was a mud hut and your daily nutritional intake came from mowing the lawn with your hands.
       I am an immigrant to the US; I came here attracted by the high salaries and refused to do the same work back in my homeland for anything less. I pay american taxes and support the american economy. I will soon be able to vote, and will happily exercise my right to do so. My hope is that all immigrants think like me so that the US IT market can continue to change lives in a positive manner, instead of taking financial advantage of the terrible conditions that other countries have to endure.

    Basil.
  39. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Oh my God, serverside.com again going towars H1 Visa, Globalisation.
       I believe USA became the most developed country in this world cuz of they believed the global man power. They welcomed talented people all over the world. Each and every person in USA, who respect their dad and mom have a story about their immigration history. So what is the big deal going global for searching, talented,creative and intellectual people??.
       During dot com time, I have even worked with people who were truck drivers who moved into software field cuz of the salary hick. I never believe software engineering is a job any idiots can do, especially in language like JAVA. So software firms need people who is expert in analatytical,mathematics and logical qualities to save time and money. Overall management is nothin but get the work done without hurting employer and employee. So going global is just a management decision to get best quality of work with lowest inverstment.
       Some comments on this thread is similar to a Chineese american guy some time posted about English communication skills in Server side com. I am very shame about him and his knowledge, cuz if anybody know about one fact which stops all eastern asian countries like Japan,Korea, China to be number one in this world is their difficulty to communicate in English. English is always a difficult language for their tounge. A guy who exactly look like a chineese, and belong to a Chineese community in California comment about others communication skill,it was the most funniest and foolish comment I ever heard. He is desperatly trying to prove that he is son of an English man and he is no more chineese any more.
         This type of attitude will build up on some immigrants once they have a chance to stand in their legs properly in USA. Once they have Green card or citizenship, they will come out and make worst comments about their on origin. I believe these type of comments are cuz they hate themself of being what they are in look and culturalwise. I believe American administration welcomed Talented people all over the world to provide the freedom and receiving the contribution of a intellectual person to a civilized society. All companies going global have a great vision behind it, it is more than a idiot american's monthly salary. So accept the great vision behind that views. More over USA mean, freedom, a chance to grow and show the best out of a human civilization, unfornatly some people landed here without understanding the meaning of what America is, sorry about them.
  40. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    I see..."Most developed country in the world" as u said means all the rest of the world is living in poverty. The whole definitions of first,second and thirld world country is misconceiving.Probably u forgot the thirty millions of your follow citisens who live in poverty . In the United Kingdom most services are the same or even worse than many developing countries'. still we classify the UK as developed country!. what u said and what all people are trying to say in the serverside is only politics! and I would appreciate it if we live poltics aside and speak about Java,J2ee ...no offence!
    F.A
    United Kingdom
    Birmingham
  41. LOL![ Go to top ]


    I believe USA became the most developed country in this world cuz of they believed the global man power.
    <
    Very funny! Where did learn what the most developed country in the world is? I travelled around the world and actually I am not sure although I don?t think it is the USA. I am sure it will be a country in Europe, probably The Netherlands or a Scandinavian country.
  42. WebLogic, Webshpere, Oracle[ Go to top ]

    WebLogic, Webshpere, Oracle are part of the problem, not a solution to Java.

    Cost to operate (licensing plus other) a WebLogic or WebSphere on Sparc with Oracle is much to high compared to ASP with MS SQL (and also slower).

    OpenSource, Jakarta, OpenOffice, Linux.
    Apache has more market share than IIS. Linux has more market share than Windows on Servers. Cost of Open Office for 100 users license is FREE, save a buck.
    PostgreSQL is a great DB, free. Tomcat is much more popular than WebLogic or WebShpere.
    Eclipse IDE is FREE.

    Imagine you wrote a web aplication that you want to resell and make a $, or that you have 10,000 concurent useres. Why waste $ on #2.

    Also, Opensource is much better quality and has better support.

    .V





  43. LOL![ Go to top ]

    Very funny! Where did learn what the most developed country in the world is? I travelled around the world and actually I am not sure although I don?t think it is the USA. I am sure it will be a country in Europe, probably The Netherlands or a Scandinavian country. <

    Talking like a true European...I too travel around the world...but I can stand maximum 3 weeks in Europe...then I get homesick...back to good old USA.
  44. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    And you expect those terrible conditions to ease how, exactly?

    Tertiary industries (such as programming) are an excellent industry for a developing nation to build. They don't pollute, they don't require massive imports, they encourage (expensively) educated citizens to stay at home, and they bring in lots of money. Furthermore, they can be done remotely.

    And if you think it's bad now, with India, wait until China gets unleashed as well. Between those two countries, you're talking about a third of the world's population, decent (and rapidly improving) education, and a strong desire not to just be a manufacturing/mining sweatshop for the US.

    For a massively industralised country like America, globalisation is a GoodThing(tm), whilst a bad thing for certain victims of it. Trying to shut it down is silly. The trick to coping with it is to take advantage of your strengths. In particular, the advantage of being local to your customer.

    Fighting globalisation is like fighting the tide; sooner or later you will be swamped. Salaries and conditions of most countries will, over time, settle at the same level. The only question is will the developing countries rise to meet you, or will you fall to their level? And if you hide behind your protectionist barriers, it will be you who falls eventually.
  45. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Robert Watkins wrote:

    "And if you think it's bad now, with India, wait until China gets unleashed as well. Between those two countries, you're talking about a third of the world's population, decent (and rapidly improving) education, and a strong desire not to just be a manufacturing/mining sweatshop for the US."

    I'm not sure you are correct here. The two countries thus far who have made a major success of outsourcing and exporting IT skills are India and Ireland. Both of them had the same enormous advantage, that of speaking the English language fluently. If China builds a major IT sector, I figure it will be in embedded software which is exported along with the products the software drives.

    "For a massively industralised country like America, globalisation is a GoodThing(tm), whilst a bad thing for certain victims of it. Trying to shut it down is silly. The trick to coping with it is to take advantage of your strengths. In particular, the advantage of being local to your customer."

    This is right on. Indian outsourcing is at least a decade old, and has gone upmarket. In the early 90's it took the form of H1B bodyshopping. Indian salary levels were 10% of US ones then, which means that body shops could afford to pay travel and living expenses and still undercut US labor by 20%! But the kind of people they could get to do that were generally underskilled. This isn't to say ALL Indians were unskilled, not at all! Most Indians entered the US via graduate school and were as well-skilled (and generally as well-payed) as anyone else once they got the green card. The difference was marginal even before that.

    Today the challenge is different. Relative Indian skills levels are much higher than they were. Indian wages are also much higher, running at 40-60% of US levels from what I hear. Outsourcing now takes the form of actually taking over a project or major subsystems and delivering foinished software as opposed to renting out cheap bodies. Indian rates still undercut western ones by 50%, but there are major disadvantages to running a project remotely halfway across the world. Especially when you cannot freeze requirements solid. This is the 'local' advantage you mentioned.

    "Fighting globalisation is like fighting the tide; sooner or later you will be swamped. Salaries and conditions of most countries will, over time, settle at the same level. The only question is will the developing countries rise to meet you, or will you fall to their level? And if you hide behind your protectionist barriers, it will be you who falls eventually."

    I would dissent with the idea that salaries will settle at the same level. Salary levels depend on labor demand, which in turn depends on the unit cost of doing business in a country. Infrastructure, taxation, legal hassles, political corruption, and education all have their place in addition to labor rates. In many products labor is less than 10% of total costs.

    I'd agree with an assertion that people are going to pay Americans more just because we're americans. We're going to get paid more (if we do) because total costs of doing business in the US are lower. If they are.

    The evidence of India and Ireland is pretty clear. Wages of all workers in both places seem to be rising steadily as the skill level and infrastructure improve. 'Undeveloped' countries which pursue the right policies will tend to make up ground on the US as India and Ireland have.
  46. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Don Stadler, you seem to know your stuff man. I agree with every word you said. You're a true analyst.
    I have a major business venture in a 3rd world country and there is a tremendous amount of profit that can be made. Send me an email to penero2003 at hotmail dot com if you're interested.
  47. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    "I have a major business venture in a 3rd world country and there is a tremendous amount of profit that can be made. "

    I'm sure there is. But at what expense? Apparently you're another person who only thinks of the short term. At some point, if we farm enough jobs overseas, there will be no one here to buy our products. You think people in third-world countries can afford our products?

    FOR SHAME.
  48. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Don, "I would dissent with the idea that salaries will settle at the same level. Salary levels depend on labor demand, which in turn depends on the unit cost of doing business in a country. Infrastructure, taxation, legal hassles, political corruption, and education all have their place in addition to labor rates. In many products labor is less than 10% of total costs. "

    True, there's no way salaries will level when the cost of living in those countries are so much lower - they will always have a huge advantage. Not to mention, their countries don't play by the "same rules" ours do, i.e., they don't have to follow EPA guidlines, fair labor acts, etc. If they could educate 14 year olds enough to write software, bet there would be plenty of sweatshops in those places where kids work 18 hour days.

    But oh, that's ok - as long as it isn't in America.

    We consume most of the world's oil in our suv's (not me personally), our corproations other countries as sweatshops in countries that have no ethics whatsoever and are terribly corrupt, and we went from fighting noble wars for indepenedence and freeing Jewish people to fighting over oil as this "government" of ours picks and choose the battles that benefits it most. How sickening that the gulf war was considered us helping the Saudis - countries get invaded all the time and the us does nothing about it. But boy, threaten our oil... and we learned NOTHING from it either, suv's still abound. How disgusting.

    It's no wonder the rest of the world hates us.
  49. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Tracy,
    remember, it was colonization and the search for natural resources that created this country in the first place!

    More of this has gone on since 1776 - to the benefit of us all.

    If you are so disgusted, then you should consider moving back to the old world and farm potatoes ( oh, i almost forgot, potatoes came from the new world too...)

    Matt
  50. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Tracy: "It's no wonder the rest of the world hates us."

    Urban myth.
  51. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Hiya Tracy. How are things going in Dallas? How's the job front looking? If it's looking good I might move down to DFW. Yep, they got to me finally and I'm out looking in London now. But since I'm on the local equivalent of an H1B I have a two month time limit......

    Tracy Milburn wrote: "True, there's no way salaries will level when the cost of living in those countries are so much lower - they will always have a huge advantage. Not to mention, their countries don't play by the "same rules" ours do, i.e., they don't have to follow EPA guidlines, fair labor acts, etc. If they could educate 14 year olds enough to write software, bet there would be plenty of sweatshops in those places where kids work 18 hour days."

    I'm not sure whether salary drives cost of living or vice-versa. Some of both I suspect. Dallas isn't competing with the average cost of living in India any more than it is with the cost of living in Silicon Valley or New York. Those Indian programmers are living in Bombay or Bangalore or another big city with decent infrastructure and I'm willing to bet that rents are pretty high in those places. I read a peice in the Economist magazine in 1997 which stated that one couldn't get a decent two-bedroom apartment in central Bombay for less than $1000 a month, and I believe it.

    Salaries for Indian programmers have been bid up to 50% of US levels because they are worth it and that is the way markets work. Up from 10% of US salaries a decade ago, BTW. And they will probably go higher, but then so will Indian programmer's ideas of what a minimal standard of living is. Just like it did in the US.

    US infrastructure costs are lower than in most of the Far East (including India) because you can build and staff a decent programming shop just off any interstate exit within 20 miles of a big city. Places in the Far East don't have those kinds of options, therefore the cost of office space is much higher than in the US.
  52. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Don,

    Hi, good to hear from you again.

    "Don, "Hiya Tracy. How are things going in Dallas? How's the job front looking? If it's looking good I might move down to DFW. ""

    I wouldn't bother... texas was hit hardest next to silicon valley. Unemployment is over 7% last I heard. There are about 80 computerjos listing Java on computerjobs.com in the whole state of texas and, for each one, there are hundreds applying.

    Most of my friends have been laid off and are either still out of work after a year or so, or are installing cable or working as security guards or something. ONe friend has 3 jobs.

    Sad, sad times.
  53. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Well, the recession is an old one now. I expect a strong upturn next year. The last time we saw things draw out this long was in 1981-82, and there was a strong recovery in 1983-84.

    They got me a couple weeks ago. I'm sitting at home working the phones and swotting up my JSP these days. Feeling lucky I made it this far, and lucky that my savings will pull me through.
  54. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    "They got me a couple weeks ago. I'm sitting at home working the phones and swotting up my JSP these days. Feeling lucky I made it this far, and lucky that my savings will pull me through"

    Don,
    Are you sure you're not interested in my business proposal? If you are send a copy of your CV to penero2003@hotmail.com
  55. Going global...[ Go to top ]

    Actually the salary of a java programmer
    with experience in Spain is between 30.000
    and 40.000 &#8364;.

    Is this so bad?
    For live in Spain no.

    Excuse for my English
  56. Spain - "a third world country"? If you worked for Sun, I'd bet the farm you'd in the the bottom 10%; being made redundant.
  57. Hey Boy Spain is no third world and
    here in Spain Sun is bigger and better than Microsoft
    and much better than IBM.

    Please be Gentleman with foreigner Countries.

    But all that New Economy bubble burst and they got injured
    like everybody.

    Lot of Competence from Intel and Microsoft.
    Where is now Netscape? Where is Lotus? Where is Tandem?
    where is Digital? where is Apple?
  58. SUN has some serious problems.

    But I am sure that Java is healthy.

    No matter what happend (SUN manage to turn
    and move from red to black, SUN sells all the
    Java stuff to IBM, SUN get bougth by another
    company or something else) then I am convinced
    that Java will survive.

    There are huge developer community (inclusive
    Apache and JBoss). There are strong support
    from many other commercial vendors (IBM, Oracle,
    BEA etc.).

    So I am very confident long term. Short term I fear
    that this will increase the SUN <-> Open Source
    frictions, because SUN is in this situation.



  59. Agree!

    More?
    Maybe better for Java for Sun to go away sooner.
    They have slow expensive, slow HW
    (tpc.org)
    and look at this, sample of their SW:
    http://www2.theserverside.com/reviews/forum.jsp?forum_id=16


    This way .NET can get a healthy competitor, which I think is Jkarta.apache.org. Apache already has larger market share that MS (netcraft.com)

    Also many good/better VM, IBM VM, J:Rockit rocks, etc.
    Also http://www.kaffe.org/

    As developers, we should stop compiling using SUN VMs, just in case Sun goes the way of DEC, or Data General.
    About 6 months ago I recommended my clients stop using Sun VM, HW, etc, it's the safe thing to do.

    Shame is that they had a gem in Java (like DEC had Alpha), and talented people, but were mismanaged.
    (Sort of like having good developers on a project and a bad PM, nothing you can do to save the project).

    .V


  60. As developers, we should stop compiling using SUN VMs,

    > just in case Sun goes the way of DEC, or Data General.

    I think that's just a *bit* extreme. But, I would like to
    see more ports of the VM & compiler to other platforms
    (NETBSD, non-Intel Linux, etc.) Alot of these guys have
    found that Sun releases new versions of the JDK so fast
    that it's easier to put emulators in than to actually
    try to keep up with the new versions. Contrast this with GNU
    C++ which is much more difficult to port -- a guess there --
    but available on far more platforms. Perhaps a slowdown
    would make JAVA more available...

    -- Les
  61. I actually think the GNU C++ compiler is fairly "easy" to port. The entire thing is written in C. The only real thing to port is the assembly language it emits, which wouldn't be too hard for an expert in that architecture. The rest of the compiler doesn't change.
  62. "I actually think the GNU C++ compiler is fairly "easy" to port."

    You should try to port a *real* program (that is, that _needs_ libraries outside ANSI C) from Windows to Linux without Wine, or Linux to Windows without Cygwin. Or Linux to FreeBSD without thousands of #ifdefs...
  63. Good saying....
    "Sort of like having good developers on a project and a bad PM, nothing you can do to save the project"

    Your reply indicates what kind of PM you are.

    I really agree with you "nothing you can do to save the project".
  64. <.....>
    Java is Healthy .... blah blah
    </.....>
     dont be be afraid javamen your job is still available until the next fashion : c#
    After you will have to switch like everybody


    Good luck
    Next !
  65. <After you will have to switch like everybody >>


    FYI:

    I just finished sifting through piles of resumes where Microsoft programmers(vb & c++) tack java onto to their resumes for job security. Java is healthy. In fact, it is so healthy vb programmers are attempting to camouflage as java programmers.

    P.S.

    Stop looking into your toilet bowl at 4:00 am after a strong martini for assitance in fortune telling. opensource + java > microsoft + csharp








     
  66. Fear not m m, even you can be turned from the dark side, come, taste the red pill, the good in you too can be liberated.
  67. Damn it! I am just about to enter SUN when I finished my M.S. at the end of this year. It's terrible for me to hear this news.
  68. Do anyone have comments on the possibility of the merge of ORCL and SUNW?
    -I think SUNW and ORCL can complement each other.
    Their stocks are always of the same shape.

    Second question, how will the merge affect Java?
    - JCP may not change in near future
    -SUN's persavative computing(JINI/JXTA) may be dropped
    by Oracle.


    Citystory
  69. The current SUN stock price certainly makes
    a merger a possibility.

    Simply because not so much money is
    needed.

    Oracle and SUN does not have overlapping
    products, so it is one possibility. But I do
    not know whether Oracle has the money.

    IBM would really love to get all the
    Java stuff, but are probably not interested
    in SUN's hardware business.

    DELL got the money, but it I do not know
    easy it would be to make sense of the product
    lines.

    Maybe Oracle.

    Maybe Dell, which would sell all the Java
    stuff to IBM.

    In any case - it is pure speculation.
  70. SUN + BEA + ORACLE = IBM = A big goliath

    cheers :)
  71. IMHO, Java won't be in trouble. There are players like IBM, Oracle and BEA to see that it's thriving.

    But it appears Linux is eating away the market share of all flavors of Unixes. And Sparc is threatened by new fast Intel processors. And of course, other J2EE Servers have a better market than SunONE.

  72. Personally, I do not think Java is in trouble, however Sun is in trouble. I think J2EE is in trouble as a brand is Sun continues to put out a product that does not work, like the RI and SunOne. Wait, they are are really the same product. J2EE is on the verge of being meaningless if Sun continues to give away a product that does not work. People will use this product because it is Sun and they are the creators of Java. However, when this does not work, they start to think that J2EE does not work.

    This leads them to doing one of the following, go to open source or .Net.

    If the Sun sets, IBM ot the Open Source community will be there to pick up Java IMHO, or a combination of both.

  73. Java could be in trouble[ Go to top ]


    Sun and Java's destiny are strongly tied. Let's not forget that Sun still own ALL of the IP related to Java and J2EE. If they go down, so do all the IP rights, and it's very likely that the "license" to use it freely will disappear with Sun.

    Even if Sun does not disappear, who says that they won't stop distributing Java for free and suddenly start charging for the next versions of the JVM ? There is nothing that forbids it in their licensing agreements. Even the "other" JVMs out there are based on licenses of the Sun implementation (yes, IBM uses a Sun JVM license) so it means that they could be charged much more than what they are now for a source license.

    You think it's crazy ? Think of it this way : would Sun rather conserve it's workforce and capitalize on the IP it has created or fire people and continue giving away technology for free ?

    Despite all this I am not a Microsoft maggot, but I am strongly in favor of Sun moving the responsibility of Java into the open source world, therefore committing itself to keeping Java really open. As they say at Sun : let's compete on implementation, not standards.
  74. Java could be in trouble[ Go to top ]

    I thought the term "Third world country" was no longer politically correct. Don't we say "Developing nation" now?
  75. Winter, Spring, Summer, and Fall[ Go to top ]

    On the local Philly NPR station there is a foundation that claims to serve "under resourced children". (PC speak for Poor Kids).

    Perhaps Sun is just "under resourced" currently; but
    I understand they have enough cash on hand to hang on thru a cold economic winter.

    Perhaps this will be a good thing and make them focus a little bit and not churn out boatloads of stuff for the developer community to have to swallow.

  76. Java could be in trouble[ Go to top ]

    Until recently we used to say "emerging markets", remember? :-=

    cheers
  77. Java could be in trouble[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
     Until recently we used to say "emerging markets", remember? :-=
    </quote>

    Yes, and based on an examination of my mutual fund statements, we could now say "submerging markets"...
  78. I always find it amusing that when the topic of the future of Sun comes up, the theory that x86 64bit harware will automatically replace all other architectures and Sun will be put out of business. This of course is an erroneous arguement since the market is big enough to support many different players and there is no magical one-size-fits-all computer product (as much as the boys in Redmond would like us to believe). If price/performance was the only driving factor in all economic decisions, than everyone would commute using mopheads and Mercedes, BMW, and Jaguar along with the Luxury SUV's makers would all be put out of business. Of course, a quick glance at any metropolitan freeway would show this to be false.

    Where are these cheap 64 bit x86 processors? AMD's opteron has been delayed until early next year(could slip again), and the intels itanium 2 is 5k a CPU!

    Sun has always been a distributed networking company and their new n1 initiative proves it. System and configuration management are a big headache in any data center, and the n1 intiative will go along way to alleviate that and deferentiate themselves in the market.

    Suns recent woes come from their over investment in the new economy instead of focusing on the brick and mortar companies. When all the dot-bombs fizzled out, cheap abundant Sun hardware flooded the market and destroyed new hardware sales. To this day you can find awesome deals on Sun hardware on e-bay, half the price of new ones from the Sun store. From what I have read, they also left some of their channel partners and existing customers out in the cold

    I have worked with the iplanet products intimately and I will say that they were not the most developer friendly or issue free products on the market. However, once Sun accuired iPlanet, the products have been completely rewritten and are nothing but spectacular. The new portal server and app server betas that I have been playing around with are much more developer friendly and spec compliant, right on par with BEA platform 7. Plus the Platform Edition of the app server,a restricted version of the standard edition, will be available for free for production and development, making it even more attractive.


    It is very sad to see Sun layoff so many, but it was something the market dictated and was probably unavoidable in this economic climate. I think that through the JSR process java has diversified enough that other companies can pick up the slack if Sun's R&D faces significant layoffs

  79. "...everyone would commute using mopheads..."

    I've heard of people riding on broomsticks but never mopheads, even on Halloween.

    Software, particularly server software, is being commoditized just as computer hardware has. This means that companies like Sun become less profitable. MS faces the same forces.

    An earlier post got it right regarding Java. Sun could get desperate and try to collect royalties like has been done with gif and now jpg.

    That would certainly hurt Java. The best thing for Java is for Sun to let it go. Java is overdue for an overhaul, anyway. ANSI or some other standards body could really improve things.
  80. Sun couldn't use their intellectual property in this way, even if they wanted to. It wouldn't take 6 weeks until apache or IBM or whoever would come out with a Java clone.

    cheers
  81. Java and SUN will survive.[ Go to top ]

    Even if SUN goes down the tube, java will still thrive because of the huge developer support for java, it has already reached critical mass and it is still growing. But in my opinion SUN will survive and win because of its adaptability to the changes of the market. The fact that it's laying off workers is an indication that their adapting to the changing times. Just take a look at General Electric during the 80's, it has laid off a lot of workers and closed down some plants. Look at them today, it is ranked as the best managed company in America.
    I've been doing enterprise application development for the past five years and I've already seen the performance of intel x86 processors. They are not good when it comes to enterprise computing. The reason for this is the CISC architecture of Intel processors. It just makes me laugh when I read organizations trying to dump their SUN, HP, IBM, etc. RISC Unix servers for cheap intelx86 processors. They will gonna have a lot of surprises going their way. They better cover their ass when top management asks some really nasty questions.
  82. Java and SUN will survive.[ Go to top ]

    You are all sad. Ofcourse SUN is going to survive. How could you even think otherwise?
  83. Java and SUN will survive.[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    Could you explain why Intel machines are inferior?

    I am not familiar with the hardware/systems side and would appreciate a more in-depth explanation.

    Regards,
    Calvin Loh

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    rhomuel reyes wrote:
    I've been doing enterprise application development for the past five years and I've already seen the performance of intel x86 processors. They are not good when it comes to enterprise computing. The reason for this is the CISC architecture of Intel processors. It just makes me laugh when I read organizations trying to dump their SUN, HP, IBM, etc. RISC Unix servers for cheap intelx86 processors. They will gonna have a lot of surprises going their way. They better cover their ass when top management asks some really nasty questions.
  84. Java and SUN will survive.[ Go to top ]

    Calvin: "Could you explain why Intel machines are inferior?"

    There are two groups of Intel server chips now: Xeon (32-bit, basically a Pentium desktop chip, optionally with more cache) and Itanium (64-bit, completely different architecture). I can't speak to Itanium, because I haven't seen it in real world use yet.

    Regarding the 32-bit server architecture, it is acceptable for 1-CPU and sometimes 2-CPU systems (depending on memory bandwidth requirements), and is very affordable in this configuration compared to (e.g.) Sun. Unfortunately, Intel servers scale very poorly compared to Sun Sparc, IBM, HP PA-RISC etc., so the cost savings has quite a diminishing return. For example, while a nice 1-CPU Intel server might cost $3,000 and be faster than a $10,000 Sun server, a $30,000 Intel-based server may not be much faster than the $3,000 server because of the poor multi-CPU support (memory bus, cache architecture, etc.) As one example, Sparcs come with 8MB cache, while high speed Xeons had only 256k until recently (making it almost impossible to get great performance even with just a 2x CPU system).

    Secondly, although Intel (and AMD) make very reliable chips, the reliability of the Sun, IBM and HP chips is at a completely different level. They actually contain circuitry that constantly checks the health of the chip (knowing that the chip is just one of many CPUs in a system) and either corrects errors (ECC) or removes the chip from usage if a fatal error is found. On the other hand, an Intel chip can misfunction but (theoretically) keep running anyway, causing who knows what to occur. Note: it's not just the CPUs either -- a lot of the components in high end servers are either redundant or have ECC circuitry etc. These features have begun to show up in high-end 32-bit Intel-based servers too, but those servers are basically as expensive as their Sun/IBM/HP counterparts.

    Third, Intel chips are 32-bit, not 64-bit. Large memory requirements typically force you to use the other vendors (including Intel Itanium for that matter). There are some hacks to use more than 4GB with Intel 32-bit chips, but it gets ugly in a hurry, and I haven't seen any JVMs that support more than 2GB on Intel 32-bit chips.

    Fourth, the choice of server OS on Intel servers is basically Windows or Linux. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but generally speaking companies have known better than to use Windows and have shied away from Linux. While both are reasonably good as a server OS for certain tasks, and both continue to improve, neither has the level of trust that AIX, OS400, HPUX, and Solaris have.

    Generally speaking, Intel (or AMD) based servers are a great value for 1x or 2x CPU applications that do not require an extreme level of reliability on a per-server basis and do not have massive memory requirements. As an example, web farms (Apache on Linux or IIS on Windows) are common on 1u rack-mounted 2x CPU Intel-based servers. These servers, fully configured including software, typically cost under $3k, and can even be had for under $1,500 (2x CPU 1u running "free" Linux/Apache).

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  85. Intel is mass produced, that is why it is less expensive, and faster. The R&D of Intel is much larger, that is why it is faster.
    Do not belive the marketing talk above of why more expensive is faster, it is not.
    Here is open standard tests, already done for you.

    www.tpc.org
    www.specbench.org

    64 bit is slower than 32 bit. It can address more cache meomory so very large DB would be faster, becuase the data is in RAM, no disk IO.

    SPARC is done, bye bye. I dislike when sales people sell stuff, oh this is faster becuase. Show me! Blah, Blah.
    Is Spec bench wrong, is tpc wrong?

    Re: Java, MS is to expensive to operate, so people will naturaly use Linux(on Intel)/Java w/PostgreSQL (or MySQL v5)

    .V
  86. .V: "Intel is mass produced, that is why it is less expensive, and faster."

    Less expensive, sure, but faster is certainly not a given. Two-year old Alphas still run rings around the latest Intel chips.

    .V: "64 bit is slower than 32 bit."

    If you are talking about binary code, then yes, obviously: just as 32-bit code is slower than 16-bit code. However, one would not choose to deploy 32-bit code over 64-bit code for speed reasons alone, as the differences is nominal.

    .V: "SPARC is done, bye bye."

    It still leads in many market segments. Saying it is "done" is irresponsible and intellectually dishonest.

    Maybe you could say "PA RISC is done", because HP has actually announced an EOL on it (and that will only occur after they release like two more iterations of it.)

    What you will see is more competition moving up from the low-end, particularly with increased competition in the 4-way space from new ServerWorks chipsets (Intel) and the upcoming Opteron (AMD). The Opteron, BTW, is 64-bit (much like how the Intel 80386 added 32-bit support to a 16-bit architecture) and it will support 4-way and 8-way servers very inexpensively. It will make more of an impact on the server market than most people think, because you'll probably be able to buy a reliable 4-way server (fully configured) for probably less than $20k that will be _significantly_ faster than most of the current 8-way Intel systems (which cost around $80k.)

    While that probably won't hurt Intel much (it's the low-volume part of their business), it is going to put _huge_ price pressure on "midrange" Unix server sales, particularly from Sun.

    .V: "Is Spec bench wrong, is tpc wrong?"

    Yes, they are both routinely broken, and that has been discussed extensively all over the web. See Sun's recent abuse of Spec through a compiler optimization (the only reason that the latest Sun CPUs look competitive on Spec figures.) Take TPC-C as an example: If companies could actually get Microsoft SQL Server to run reliably and as fast as advertised on these "commodity Intel servers" then everyone would be using it. Yet we see SQL Server in probably less than 5% of the large-scale applications that we work with. Why? Maybe because you can't actually build a real world 272-CPU system out of Intel parts for $10,603,803 that does 709,220 tpmC _and_ treats your data reliably.

    .V: "Java, MS is to expensive to operate, so people will naturaly use Linux(on Intel)/Java w/PostgreSQL (or MySQL v5)"

    When discussing enterprise systems, that is not much closer to reality today than it was five years ago. No responsible manager will trust corporate transactional data to PostgreSQL or MySQL, regardless how much a couple of their engineers like to play with them.

    When discussing web site stuff, then yes, Linux MySQL Java PHP Perl etc. makes a lot of sense.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  87. Java and SUN will survive.[ Go to top ]

    Hi Cameron,

    Thanks for a very informative explanation.

    Regards,
    Calvin Loh
  88. Java and SUN will survive.[ Go to top ]

    Hi Cameron,

    One small comment:
    >>> Secondly, although Intel (and AMD) make very reliable chips, the reliability of the Sun, IBM and HP chips is at a completely different level. They actually contain circuitry that constantly checks the health of the chip (knowing that the chip is just one of many CPUs in a system) and either corrects errors (ECC) or removes the chip from usage if a fatal error is found. On the other hand, an Intel chip can misfunction but (theoretically) keep running anyway, causing who knows what to occur.

    Itanium chips already have these features. See http://www.intel.com/design/itanium/itanium/index.htm or ftp://download.intel.com/design/Itanium/Downloads/24870102.pdf for more details...


    Product Highlights [...]
    Advanced error detection, correction and containment provided by Machine Check Architecture (MCA), comprehensive error logging, and Error Correcting Code (ECC) on caches and the system bus.


  89. Java and SUN will survive.[ Go to top ]

    Adi: "One small comment: ... Itanium chips already have these features."

    Yes, the Itanium is a completely different animal than the 32-bit chips that Intel sells. It is actually an HP/Intel cooperative effort (the old EPIC project), and has a lot of HP's renound reliability features built in from the PA RISC era. (It's even got built-in support for PA RISC binaries.)

    I've yet to see it catch on, but once Windows server OS and related apps, such as database etc., are "finished" for it, there will probably be a big up-tick. Right now, if you buy it, you get a beta of Windows/64 for it, and the new (i.e. tolerably not-so-slow) Itanium IIs are just now appearing in the market.

    Linux is already available for it, but Linux is best known for its wins in margin-sensitive ($) arenas, and the Itanium is not for the cost-conscious ... not yet anyway.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  90. Intel is pushing Itanium hard[ Go to top ]

    I was at a road show at the local Intel center three months ago to see BEA Weblogic Portal, but the Intel Itanium presentation was very interesting. According to BEA the JRockit JVM has been optimized for Itanium, and the combination apparently rocks.
  91. Maybe someone can answer this question for me: how does Sun make money off of Java? How does a hardware company make money from sofware that is cross-platform by design?
  92. Licensing and think lots of other types of devices that run a vm, not just desktops and servers.
  93. <..knees are shaking..>
  94. Every company is having job cuts these days, big deal. I don't think Sun or Java is in trouble.

    IBM, BEA, etc... are the reasons Java is doing so well, not Sun

    Any Sun still does other things besides Java?

    Solaris, Hardware, etc... which still has alot of market share. Microsoft, IBM, BEA, etc... all layed off people this year, why is this one so public.
  95. I agree, it's not that big of a deal, except for those directly affected. Sybase has laid off a large number of consultants over the last 2 years or so as a direct result of the economic situation (and of their small market share). So, this Sun lay-off is no reflection on the state of Java.
  96. Someone referred to Spain as a 3rd world country. That person obviously was educated in the US public school system. Whatever happens to Sun, Java is too established and growing in usage to be dragged down by Sun. Plus, it'll likely be moved into the open-source community before too long.
  97. I think Java is going to be fine. Sun will survive the low economy. I think the biggest surprise will Microsoft which will soon go to toilet status soon. I have been using RedHat 8.0 for a while and I think linux will bring MS down. Sun will change but I really dought if MS will . The good ol days for Microsoft is over Java killed VB and now linux will kill windows. Java and linux are great pair Sun and IBM's move to linux and java is great. Ahh... let me have some beer.
  98. So far MS is doing fine.

    Just look at their latest financial results.
  99. I think we have digressed from the actual Thread topic. Anyways, commenting on "sweatshops" in 3rd world, software development is not a blue collar work. The level and standard of education in India & China is (especially Maths, Physics & Chemistry) is way much above the standard in US. The math I was doing at 10th grade is taught in 12th grade / 1st year of BS in US. So, believe in equality of all humans, ignore the racial & COLOR barries and work towards better software products & technologies.
  100. Well said ravi. Uve clearly stated that colours, orgin has nothing to do with brains.
  101. How do you kill a bear that has a stock pile of 40 billion dollars in cash? MS is not going any where buddy. I have been programming in java/j2ee for about 4 years now. I tried c#/.Net and experience such a huge performance difference that I have decided to move completely to .net. Imagine this. This is the 1.0 version of .net and it is so much more of a compelling platform. How long did it take sun to provide the community with a decent and tolerable version of java and the jvm. Anything prior to the 1.3 jdk is just plain brutal. If you want to experience a huge performance boost to your application on all levels, I recommend that you guys just experiment in writting a c#/.net application. Don't just sit there and talk about which platform/language is better. Write a real application and see for your self. You bring absolutely no credibility to the discussion if you have not written application using the .net framework. Unless, that is, you want to commit intellectual perjury.
  102. mackie, "Anything prior to the 1.3 jdk is just plain brutal"

    You obvsiouly haven't programmed in java for 4 years then. There were very little changes between 1.2 and 1.3 I've used 1.2 for about 2 years now, and it's a fantastic jdk.

    So, get a clue.
  103. People thought the same thing about IBM's place a few years back. And look what happened. Granted, IBM has rebounded from it but they have many more avenues of revenue than MS.

    Some things not in favor of MS. OOS. Countries looking hard at OSS. Office is 1/3 of MS's income and OpenOffice/StarOffice is a good competitor. That and the fact the next version of Office will support XML as persistance - means less being tied to Office. Java has a major head start and is supported by most Vendors and runs everywhere and the current crop of IDEs are excellent.

    As for moving to .Net based on performance - Well, for me Java is fast enough and with the advantages of it combined with my choice of IDE (etc.) it totally outweights any advantage of the .Net platform.




  104. Case in point - http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,75271,00.html
  105. I don't know how we got on globalization/globalisation, but one thing is certain: the market sets the price. If a grocer decides to start charging a huge amount for eggs, chances are he's not going to sell many. May other factors can help him - he's the only store for 20 miles, the eggs are really really good, etc. but there's a limit to what he can get away with.

    This simple fact goes for salaries, too. I once had a VP who said "we can't get good IT people to move here". If you pay enough, people will work on pipelines in Alaska or oilfields in the desert. Some companies don't want to face this fact. The flip-side, as a programmer, is that companies will use cheaper (overseas) labor if it makes sense to do so. The market sets the price.

    -Scott
  106. I'm not sure how 'the market sets the price' applies to this discussion, Scott. The market was setting the price 30 months ago as well, and the market saw the future as limitless at that time, and overpriced both companies and talent.

    Right now I'd say the market is too pessimistic and is underpricing both. But that's the business cycle for you.

    Sun is losing money, which isn't any surprise. Their business model uses hardware profits to subsidize free software and software development. When the hardware profits disappear Sun has layoffs.

    Remember that Sun deliberately didn't lay off last year. So the layoff is coming late in the cycle after they got desperate.

    Will Sun survive? I think so. They're not it that bad a shape or else they would be laying off lots more people. They have good products so I don't think they're that sick. The stock price is sick, but have you looked at practically every other tech company out there lately? Single digits and total falls from the peak of anywhere from 80 to more than 99% or more! Microsoft is the only exception, for two reasons. M$ is still making good profits, and it has a huge pool of cash in it. Both will keep the share price high.

    I used to work for Nortel Networks (the huge Canadian company). When I left in mid-2000 the share price was $90 on Nasdaq. I just looked it up. 88 cents. Pitiful.

    There are a lot of good buys out there. Cisco, Oracle, Intel
  107. DOn, I agre with almost everything you say. The guy that kept saying "the market sets the price" sounds like a freshman or sophomore economics student - sounds great in theory adn in the example he gave, but like you said, the market is often DEAD WRONG. The stupid .com era where people were selling a pitch when they new they had nothing but vapor just to steal money from investors then cash out is a prime example. The market is not always right. But who pays for it, the guy that cashed out? Hell now, he's in the carribean! We're all paying for it, right now, and probably the next few years. Smoeone has to pay for his millions he stole. And the govt allows this thing. Just look at Endwrong. Slaps on the wrist abound, as we all slave away paying for the lifestyles of the rich and famous. 3% controls most of the wealth; the rest of us are just puppets groveling for table scraps.

  108. Just a point of clarification - I didn't say the market was RIGHT. A company I worked for opened a development shop in Dallas because they wanted to attract better talent. They didn't want to pay higher salaries in that part of the country (and piss off their current employees back home), so they got what they paid for and the whole plan backfired. Their offers weren't competitive. They found out they didn't get to determine the salaries in that area. So who does? The market. I also worked for a couple of dot-coms. I knew they were going to go under, but they paid me a boatload to stay until the last day. There are all sorts of people that are underpaid and overpaid - I've experienced both situations.

    At one time, the government protected people from corporations that just wanted to screw them over. Now they're so entertwined that our public officials are essentially a federal Chamber of Commerce. I still stand by what I said - there aren't any salary caps. A few years ago Michael Eisner (of Disney) had an annual salary of $302 million! How do you even negotiate that? (Especially the extra 2 million?) I'm not an economist and never even had a class in it, but I've been working in IT for a very long time and this just seems to be the way it is (to me). Sorry for any confusion.

    -Scott
  109. Scott Dodson wrote: "A company I worked for opened a development shop in Dallas because they wanted to attract better talent. They didn't want to pay higher salaries in that part of the country (and piss off their current employees back home), so they got what they paid for and the whole plan backfired. Their offers weren't competitive. They found out they didn't get to determine the salaries in that area. So who does? The market."

    True enough. They probably could have attracted decent talent to whatever backwater they were originally in had they been willing to pay 20% over Dallas salaries.

    A lot of people (like Tracy) believe that Indian outsourcing and H1B visa people are draining the market of work for US citizens. This may be true up to a point but it isn't the real source of the problem.

    The real problem is that there is very little development work going right now, and the development work that exists is very cost-concious and not concious of time, flexibility, and quality. Management will have to learn the limits of outsourcing the hard way, by falling on their collective faces on a bunch of outsourced projects. Again. The lessons were learned a decade ago, but who learns from experience?

    "A few years ago Michael Eisner (of Disney) had an annual salary of $302 million! How do you even negotiate that? (Especially the extra 2 million?)"

    Special case. When you can hire the people on your board and there are no other kind of limits, things like that happen. But only to perhaps 300 people in the entire country.
  110. "Management will have to learn the limits of outsourcing the hard way..."

    Case in point - a major hotel chain is having to 'insource' it's web hosting and development. The web company they were using went out of business like IXL and Scient have.

    -Scott
  111. Hopefully they learn it before it is too late. Unfortunately the ball has begun to roll and is gaining steam. There may be no stopping it. No real signs of it stopping yet.

    My personal feeling is that globalization will destroy America, coupled with the US government loves to give money away. When we have no money to spend here, we won't have any to spend anywhere else. It will then take some other countries with it. There has got to be a better way to improve other countries (that is if they want it).
  112. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Who is making other countries RICH? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Do you know that there is an international law named GATT (General Agreement for Trade and Tariff). According to that agreement, if one country want have a business with other part of the world. They have to pay for that. But some cunning guys avoided some sensitive properties like Human Intellectual power (That is a property trading between two countries as part of Globalization) out of GATT law. So if human intellectual property ever gonna be under GATT. America have to pay India $300 billions/year as GATT agreement service charge for using the intellectual brain of Indian software Engineers. So your points are not worth. Nobody makes others rich. Going all over the world for getting the work done in a better way with less expenses is just part of business not part of making others rich. If you can not find a job under current market situation, if is nothing but you are not qualified to be a good candidate for "Struggle for being competitive". Go back to school dude or understand your limitations and get some other job.

    Regarding the living expenses in cities like Bangalore, Bombay or New Delhi. I would like to take some these guys from countryside Texas to Bangalore with paid flight ticket. Let me see if he/she can find an apartment in Bangalore without a deposit of $1500 and a monthly rent of less than $800.00. Tracy, she is nothing but an idiot, who was crying loud from her arrogant personality in a previous discussion in server side dot com. Guys don&#8217;t spend time to argue with her or her points.

    I can buy a latest technology to drop Tracy in Bangalore through a inter continental ballistic missile from Boeing and drop her in Bangalore. She might be surprised to see a huge number of Indian and international companies located there with international facilities. It might be 100 better than a Texas cowboy&#8217;s house.
    Tracy please look at the URL link below and see what an Indian company providing for their software employees in Bangalore/India.
    http://www.infy.com/infrastructure/gym.htm

    Also click on each images via next link on that page. Finally go to Yahoo and check their stock value in NASDAQ and Then go back to your cowboy employee and ask for a buffalo. Finally shut your dirty mouth and try to do your work.




  113. Hey now. Ease back on the Texan bashing. We all aren't cowboys that ride horses to work. Some of us drive tractors to work instead :-)

    As for Tracy...yeah, I remember hearing the same nonsense he/she spouted a while back. (For some reason, I am thing Tracy is a guy, but I could be wrong) Anyway, seems like it was something like "cheap foreign labor is stealing all of our jobs and the U.S. government needs to step in a put an end to it".

    Whatever.

    Ryan

  114. Excellent,
        Do you know, professionals never use words likes
    "Whatever". It is not a word used for delivering creative ideas or points. It is something school kids used to talk to their friends about universe or unknown planets.
    Do you like to talk about very creative and potential subjects like Globalization or International Relationship. Get an idea or point.

  115. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    TQ, "Do you like to talk about very creative and potential subjects like Globalization or International Relationship. Get an idea or point. "

    Hey tq, are you just here to spout out terrorist threats and insult people? I wonder what the chances are that you would say these things to the people's face.
  116. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    TQ, "I can buy a latest technology to drop Tracy in Bangalore through a inter continental ballistic missile from Boeing and drop her in Bangalore. "

    Nice on tq... real nice.

    No response to you.
  117. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    TQ - If you are responding to me (I really couldn't tell), I never said globalization would make other countries rich. It, combined with other factors, will bring down America and maybe slightly raise the 'wealth' of others. As for GATT - governments are great at breaking agreements. How about all the money other countries owe the US via 'loans'?

    I didn't say other countries didn't deserve to get paid. I do believe it is wrong to destroy the US just to save a buck. What they fail to see is that what they are doing is reducing their customer base. It is not just computer jobs that leaving the US. The come from all sectors. And that is my concern.

    As for your comment about the qualified finding jobs - that has NOTHING to do with it. Many talented are going unemployed. And many, many more will before it is over. This is not like any other previous down turn. Before we didn't have to worry about jobs and money leaving the country in a ever widening river. It is tough to recover from that.

    As for skills, I have multiple skills beyond 'programming'. And I do have a job. I'm just not sure there will be any for anyone 'tomorrow'. One can't compete with free. And one can't compete for non-existent jobs. And companies really don't care that much about talent. They care more that the code can be done for little money.

    If expenses are what you say they are in India there is no way they can afford to get paid what US companies are paying.
  118. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

      A Human, who is talented, will be silent in crucial situations of life. There is a difference between civilized human being and barking street dog. A barking dog never attack cuz he/she doesn&#8217;t have the courage to attack, so they just bark in the street through out the day and night.
      A talented human is sensitive, Sensitivity developed the skill to differentiate the thing he/she sense in his/her life and think about it. That is how human being civilized on the track of modernization. They invented new ideas and technologies. At the early ages of human civilization, when they saw fire in forest, they could see things in darkness with the help of fire lights, then they could taste the baked roots and they could save first time from winter cold. They learned from that and made great steps in civilization by introducing fire into his/her daily life and make use of them.
      So Talented people never bark, they look for creative chances and ideas even under worst situation.
      So who is talented here?????
    A man who is crying about Globalization and riding a SUV which drinks imported gas through Global business or who is being silent about that and face and accept its reality?

    Regarding the job openings.
        Any body has experience with the following skills?
    Java, Weblogic. Weblogic Portal 4.0/ 7.0, UUP., RUP, XML AND READY TO WORK IN A MULTI RACIAL ,MULTI CULTURAL COMMUNITY?. They have openings right now in New York and Minneapolis


  119. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    A Human, who is talented, will be silent in crucial

    > situations of life

    Actually they will speak out and or do something about it. Maybe in your country keeping silent is the thing to do. But this country was founded on NOT keeping silent. And keeping silent now is destroying our country.

    You don't seem to understand. Jobs from all sectors of America are leaving NOT just technology. If the trend continues soon there will not be enough to around. It has nothing to do with talent. Nothing. The thing is that America is a consumer. When we stop consuming, and we are starting to, it will hurt our 'providers' - China, India, Korea, ... .


    As for job openings you see posted - do you know of anyone in the US who has been asked to come interview? Most posting are just fishing expeditions or a company trying to prove they are 'looking' locally.
  120. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Mark Nuttall writes: As for job openings you see posted - do you know of anyone in the US who has been asked to come interview? Most posting are just fishing expeditions or a company trying to prove they are 'looking' locally.
    &&&&&&&
       Actually speaking, I got offer from these two jobs. I have to say "NO" to one of them. I have to join with the first company as a consultant on 4th of next month. But official last day in current project is 8th of next month. I am gonna work on the final versions of documentation and leaving here by next week.
       The problems with these two assignment is that, Client is looking for only very key person. Who is willing to work very hard to meet the limited budget of the project.
    I got these two offers may be also I am EX BEA guy. My BEA System's employment time actually labeled me as a BEA Guy. I don't like BEA that much okay.

    Speaking about .NET
      Microsoft is a good model for all guys out there who don't have a job right now. Look into their business model. They don't have anything they can match with Java, J2EE or Linux. But still making good money by selling products like personal computer and a dos colored DOS operating system very cheap. By going global, may be one day we could afford all of our living requirements like Microsoft way, very cheap.
       Yesterday, Microsoft made deal with Disney for showing Disney movies in MSN :)) . See there is a good business logic behind that, even though my MSN connection hang and disconnect 10 times, if I have kids they ask for MSN instead of yahoo DSL.
       So be cheap like Microsoft, reduce your billing rate. Sell your brain like Microsoft selling two CPU p4 box labeled as "Ready for Enterprise" . Sell technology like .NET, which still believe stored procedure is the highest technology discovery in information technology business.




  121. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Ok, how about a US Citizen (not sure you are one)? Where would the work be done and what is the going billing rate?

    As for doing .Net - I do (and VB Classic).

    It really doesn't matter. For me, Java is cheaper. Cheaper tools, cheaper PCs, cheaper OS.
  122. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Job is in NY and work is with a largest financial organization. They need a senior level Developer + Architect with specialized knowledge and work back ground in BEA Weblogic app server and BEA Portal.
    Billing rate is 58 USD/hour. Duration is 1 year.

    No relocation
    No flight ticket even for interview.
    No VB experts required cuz banking is an enterprise business, not home pc business for drag drop developments.
    Telephonic technical interview will be 45 minutes to 1 hour.
    pure technical talk only in Java, Weblogic, J2EE and Unix.
  123. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    <Q>
    Job is in NY and work is with a largest financial organization. They need a senior level Developer + Architect with specialized knowledge and work back ground in BEA Weblogic app server and BEA Portal.
    Billing rate is 58 USD/hour. Duration is 1 year.

    No relocation
    No flight ticket even for interview.
    No VB experts required cuz banking is an enterprise business, not home pc business for drag drop developments.
    Telephonic technical interview will be 45 minutes to 1 hour.
    pure technical talk only in Java, Weblogic, J2EE and Unix.
    </Q>

    Figured as much. Sounds like they've made it tough to find the right person here. When they get a H1Ber to fill it or send the job overseas I'm sure the bar will drop.
  124. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Can you post a small version of your resume here, let me compare that with mine or some other guys who is ready to take that job for $58/hour. During the interview, Citigroups managers even asked amout my school, university project, GPA even after I am doing my job in last 8 years. I will compare everything with yours, finally I don't ask you any technical Qns, but a logical puzzle in mathematics, that is enough for me to locate whether you are a good candidate for a software job. Then I will get you 20% more for that job. How is that??? Good deal huh :)

    DON'T BARK, TALK WITH CREATIVITY, THERE IS A WAY FOR ALL PROBLEMS INSTEAD OF BLAMING OTHERS
  125. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    TQ, "finally I don't ask you any technical Qns, but a logical puzzle in mathematics, that is enough for me to locate whether you are a good candidate for a software job. "

    TQ Troll, you continue to impress. Have you ever considered standup?
  126. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Look, my buddy here, looking for a job. But he don't want to work with CitiGroup for $58/hour. I don't know, how can I help him, God give me a way to help my buddy. God my buddy telling me that even though you are a BS or MS degree holder with very good score and atleast 5 certifications enterprise computing, it is nothin compared to his high school diploma. God give me a way to help him. He is unemployed, he moved to do software jobs for doing HTML, Java script, Cascading style sheets with ASP/JSP or drag and drop VB miracles. He left school instead of going to continue there to get a BS. He worked in information technology with a manager having a BS degree in Biology( This is a manager from our IXL Los angeles office). She was doing information technology management with Biology degree, cool huh :), god give me a way to teach him computer only know 0 and 1 and that is the fundation of mathematics.


       
  127. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Mark, "Ok, how about a US Citizen (not sure you are one)? Where would the work be done and what is the going billing rate? "

    Yes, I've heard that other coutnries aren't near as "open" to h1b's and farming out development as the us. The uS is still a very, very young country. I fear we just haven't learned the lesson others have yet.

  128. tracy: "Yes, I've heard that other coutnries aren't near as "open" to h1b's and farming out development as the us. The uS is still a very, very young country. I fear we just haven't learned the lesson others have yet."

    i think you are wrong about this. germany has been trying desperately to attract foreign hi-tech professionals. but for some reason, people don't wanna go there! similarly, a lot of other countries in westen europe, especially britain, is trying to attract top foreign talent.

    just look at where all companies like infosys and tata consultancy services (indian service companies) are landing projects....

    furthermore, you need to remember that american economy works in a different fashion than that of say UK or Germany.. simply because these other countries dont have a well-defined and popular H1-like immigration program does not mean that they "have learnt the lesson"... it might just mean that they don't have that much requirement as does the US.

    regards.
  129. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    mark, "Actually they will speak out and or do something about it. Maybe in your country keeping silent is the thing to do. But this country was founded on NOT keeping silent. And keeping silent now is destroying our country.

    Very well-said Mark.
  130. mark: "When we stop consuming, and we are starting to, it will hurt our 'providers' - China, India, Korea, ..."

    i dont see signs that signal that americans have started to consume less. the american capitalistic system and the entire american culutre is based on consumerism.
    and believe me, once you get into that 'consumeristic' (is that a valid word?) mode, it is kinda difficult to slow down and stop and start living an amish spartan lifestyle.
    can you imagine a burger and steak-consuming, SUV-driving,
    generation to suddenly cut down on their spending and start using public transport?

    that's how the darn economy in the US got so strong. american economy will be doomed the day people started consuming less. people like alan greenspan will prevent that from happening.

    i am sure consumerism will be back in its full form once the economy starts looking up a bit.

    regards.
  131. <Q>i dont see signs that signal that americans have started to consume less
    </Q>

    Open your eyes then. http://www.msnbc.com/news/825897.asp?0si=-

    <Q>
    the american capitalistic system and the entire american culutre is based on consumerism.
    </Q>
    Culture - yes. Capitalistic system - no.


    My wife and I have two small stores and believe me people are buying less. All the sales reps we talk to also say the same. And I hear more people coming in an saying they lost or are losing their jobs.

    We, as Americans, are going to have to cut back. When one has a smaller income - or no income one has no choice.

    <Q>
    that's how the darn economy in the US got so strong.
    </Q>

    No it wasn't. Good resources, hard working people and a good moral foundation. At least we have good resources still.

    <Q>american economy will be doomed the day people started consuming less.
    </Q>

    Yeaaaah. That is what I said.

    <Q>
    people like alan greenspan will prevent that from happening
    </Q>
    He is trying and it ain't working. BTW, Santa ain't real either.


    <Q>
    i am sure consumerism will be back in its full form once the economy starts looking up a bit.
    </Q>

    I hope you are right and I'm full of it. But this is the first time a recession has hit with globalization [read - all the US's jobs and money flying away] in full swing.

  132. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Mark, "No it wasn't. Good resources, hard working people and a good moral foundation. At least we have good resources still.
    "

    ROFL, I love it! How funny.

    ANd you're right, there are no jobs here, and two good reasons (although not the only ones) are: farming out work and h1b's. i still point to my friend at cisco that overheard the india h1b say to a colleage, "I'm glad they're laying off the Americans, we're safe." that sounds like someone interested in all the "ideals" of becoming a citizen.
  133. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    "I'm glad they're laying off the Americans, we're safe."

    What he doesn't realize is that he may be safe - but only for now.
  134. "
    <Q>
    the american capitalistic system and the entire american culutre is based on consumerism.
    </Q>
    Culture - yes. Capitalistic system - no. "


    i disagree man... it is a vicious cycle.. a capitalistic system cannot survive without a consumeristic society.

    regards.
  135. <My wife and I have two small stores and believe me people are buying less. All the sales reps we talk to also say the same. And I hear more people coming in an saying they lost or are losing their jobs.>

    I don't live in the US anymore though I may be returning soon. I'm sorry (but not surprised) to hear this. I recently lost my job in the and have 7 weeks to find a new one, or it's back to the US. Which is not an enormous hardship.

    <We, as Americans, are going to have to cut back. When one has a smaller income - or no income one has no choice.>

    I cut back several years ago. I don't own a car (in London it's not a necessity). My house is a cheap rental on the outskirts of London.

    <But this is the first time a recession has hit with globalization [read - all the US's jobs and money flying away] in full swing.>

    It is a strange recession, but I'm not about to hit the panic button yet. Why? Because I haven't yet seen a recession accurately predicted, nor the end of the recession predicted either.

    A rule of thumb I've developed is that when people start talking like it will never end (whether boom times or recession) it is time to plan for the opposite happening. When all the predictions are that the Dow will hit 400,000, sell out your stock portfolio and buy bonds. And when people think the recession is never gonna end, plan for cautious growth......
  136. "i dont see signs that signal that americans have started to consume less. "

    Lol, what are you smokin'? Maybe in your county there aren't record house foreclosusers... but there sure are in mine. My best friend is about to file bankruptcy.
  137. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    My best friend is about to file bankruptcy.


    I think we will see much more of this. The leak from the dam is quickly growing. Soon it will break wide open.

    Unfortunately it won't take much to put me in your friends position.
  138. The End of the Recession[ Go to top ]

    Tracy Milburn wrote: "My best friend is about to file bankruptcy."

    Mark Nuttal replied: "I think we will see much more of this. The leak from the dam is quickly growing. Soon it will break wide open. Unfortunately it won't take much to put me in your friends position."

    It looks pretty hopeless right now I agree. As it did in 1983 and 1993 before that. I think I see some light at the end of the tunnel. Firstly, this recession is an old one. The roots lie back in the dot.bom crash of mid-2000, and we certainly were in a recession by January of 2001. We're coming up on the 2nd anniversary or perhaps are past it. It's overdue to end.

    How and why do recessions end? Technically recessions begin because too many resources (whether people or capital investment) become misallocated and less productive than they should be. Recessions tend to end because demand in one part of the economy picks up.

    In the case of this recession we had a spike in investment in capital goods in 1999-2000. In the telecoms equipment sector demand doubled in 2000 followed by almost no demand in 2001, as inventories of telecoms equipment from bankrupt dot-coms and 'new' telecoms companies were knocked down at auction for pennies on the dollar.

    Another symptom of recession (in IT anyway) is that new development work fell massively over 2000, hitting a bottom in 2002 as the last projects begun during the palmy days of 1999 or 2000 either completed or were finally stopped. Or as software firms go out of business or are absorbed by other firms.

    Several things tend to end recessions. Primarily increased demand and freeing of resources from uneconomic uses. The opportunity for unemployed people to learn new skills or move from a depressed area cannot be discounted either.

    Where might increased demand come from? Two things I will mention right off the bat are opportunities that have been created by technical progress (such as the development of the J2EE and .NET technologies), and the fact that you can hire good people at cheaper wages than before. Also the increased willingness of people to move to the work.

    I'm an example of both. KPMG finally dumped me after 18 months of low profits (over half their former staff are now gone). I've been reskilling for at least 2.5 years now, and continue as faast as I can. I will move almost anywhere to work, and will take a pay cut (particularly if the cost of living at the new location is lower).

    Companies have been restructured and their costs have been much lowered. The fact that equipment is becoming obsolete and the fact that the 'surplus' equipment which resulted from the bust has now been absorbed argues for at least a modest recovery in telecoms suppliers next year, for example.

    The 'restructured' companies are probably 'running on empty', having a difficult time keeping up. Probably looking for the occasional 'good hire' to help keep up with current demand, and the slightest uptick in demand may be enough to make them start hiring in earnest from the 'bargain' labor markets.

    Another huge factor for software engineers is the development backlog. We know that organizations produce continuing demand for new software over time. This probably has only been exacerbated by the cutbacks and restructuring going on. Reorganizations produce demand for new software.

    Yet there is little new development work beginning and HAS been little for almost 2 years. The natural conclusion is that there is an enormous built up demand for new software out there. Right now the accountants have control of the purse strings and they maintain it by chanting 'recession, recession, recession, .....' all day long. But when the recession looks to be ending the control will end and many projects will begin staffing up.

    Mark noted that he sees less demand in his small shops. I don't doubt it. But this may not affect the recovery in the capital goods markets much if at all. Just as the recession in capital goods (particularly computer software and hardware and telecoms equipment) didn't affect consumer demand the past two years, a drop in consumer demand may not much affect a capital goods recovery, because planning in capital goods is pegged toward consumer demand 2-3 years from now rather than today.

    There is hope, gentlepeople. Keep the fire going.....

     
  139. Tracy: "Lol, what are you smokin'? Maybe in your county there aren't record house foreclosusers... but there sure are in mine. My best friend is about to file bankruptcy."

    how do you know what country i am from?

    regards.
  140. "how do you know what country i am from?"

    county foreclosure records. Not the country of your origin.
  141. mm kk, "how do you know what country i am from?
    "

    I said COUNTY,not country.

    Your oversensitivity is showing. I doubt you live in my exact county.
  142. tracy: "Your oversensitivity is showing. I doubt you live in my exact county. "

    oversensitivity? i don't get what you are trying to say. judging from your previous posts, looks like you are the one who is.

    regards.
  143. Tracy Milburn wrote:

    <Lol, what are you smokin'? Maybe in your county there aren't record house foreclosusers... but there sure are in mine. My best friend is about to file bankruptcy.>

    Lot's of foreclosures Tracy? That's probably a sign that people are pulling up stakes to start over elsewhere. Which can be a positive IF (and only if) jobs exist elsewhere.

    Are house prices falling in Big D? When I was living out there I had a nice 3-2 near Richardson for $750 a month, and they were auctioning brand new 3000 sq ft mini-mansions for 140K.

    Very sorry to hear about your friend. Hope theymake it alright.
  144. "i dont see signs that signal that americans have started to consume less."

    People whose jobs were moved overseas definitely started to consume less. It happened to textile industry, manufacturing, autoworkers already. Now it is IT sector turn, trucking industry is next.

    The game is over for overpriced US programmers, unless they are willing to adjust their earnings expectations to be able to compete with the rest of the world and make some serious lifestyle changes.
  145. The game is over for overpriced US programmers

    The game is over period.
  146. "The game is over for overpriced US programmers, unless they are willing to adjust their earnings expectations to be able to compete with the rest of the world and make some serious lifestyle changes. "

    that's exactly my point.. making those changes is going to take a lot of effort.. can you imagine living in dallas heat without an air-conditioned car? americans don't even wanna take a bus to work!!!
    furthermore, i dont think americans can compete with people from india and china when it comes to "living with the most minimum of goods and services"...

    i think it will be easier for the US to take drastic steps to maintain the current standard of living.. i hope bush's eeconomic agenda works.

  147. <Q>
    TQ: >A Human, who is talented, will be silent in crucial
    > situations of life

    Mark: Actually they will speak out and or do something about it. Maybe in your country keeping silent is the thing to do. But this country was founded on NOT keeping silent. And keeping silent now is destroying our country.
    </Q>

    Actually both TQ and Mark are correct.

    First, kudos to both Mark and Tracy for their economic patriotism. (BTW, if you haven't signed up for TradeAlert.org's weekly email bulletin, I recommend doing so -- it furthers much of what you've both written about and can be an eye-opener at times.)

    Still, it can be good to remain calm when you see problems occurring in the country. Instead, you should identify organizations that are highly "uncalm" on these matters, and give your moral and financial support to them. Send a donation each year commensurate with your income and feelings on the matter. Then, having lit that one candle, think nothing about it until next year's donation--go back to studying J2EE!

    Jumping up and down, getting distracted and irritated doesn't do anything but wear Americans out and put us at a competitive disadvantage with foreign interests. The best H1-B visa-fraud fighting organizations are FairUS.org and NumbersUSA.com, and many fair trade organizations can be found at http://www.tradealert.org/links.asp. Give them your support, but do leave these issues with the professionals--you concentrate on your work while they do theirs!

    Glen
  148. nn wrote:

    <People whose jobs were moved overseas definitely started to consume less. It happened to textile industry, manufacturing, autoworkers already. Now it is IT sector turn, trucking industry is next.>

    Sorry, nn. This is an artifact of the recession, not a permanent thing. At least for the IT pros who are willing and able to learn, which is most of us. Where are the truckers going to come from, Mexico? LOL.

    <The game is over for overpriced US programmers, unless they are willing to adjust their earnings expectations to be able to compete with the rest of the world and make some serious lifestyle changes.>

    Salaries for Java people soared since 1998 and have since come down. Some of the people didn't have major IT skills but that is already changing.

    What seems to be happening in places like Bangalore is that local wages are rising to something a lot closer to US levels than it used to be. As are living costs as living standards rise to meet incomes.

    Lifestyle will come down some I agree. But not as much as you seem to believe.
  149. 'T Q' write:

    "Regarding the living expenses in cities like Bangalore, Bombay or New Delhi. I would like to take some these guys from countryside Texas to Bangalore with paid flight ticket. Let me see if he/she can find an apartment in Bangalore without a deposit of $1500 and a monthly rent of less than $800.00."

    Pretty much what I thought. Pay people Western-level wages and soon many of them will be paying western-level rents and mortgage payments. Because the real estate in the areas where you can get the good jobs will be bid up.

    "Tracy, she is nothing but an idiot, who was crying loud from her arrogant personality in a previous discussion in server side dot com."

    He. Tracy is certainly not 'nothing but an idiot'.

    "I can buy a latest technology to drop Tracy in Bangalore through a inter continental ballistic missile from Boeing and drop her in Bangalore."

    He. I suggest that you provide a ticket on an international carrier instead. More comfortable for Tracy and cheaper for you. On the other hand, if you really know how to buy an IBCM, I know a chap or two who would be interested in paying you large sums of money for your expertise. Chaps named Osama and Saddam....... ;-)

    Nice gym.
  150. I hope you are right Don. And I hope it raises the cost of doing business there. Sorry I was a little pesimistic.
  151. TQ: "Who is making other countries RICH?"

    People who work hard.

    TQ: "Do you know that there is an international law named GATT (General Agreement for Trade and Tariff). According to that agreement, if one country want have a business with other part of the world. They have to pay for that."

    It's not actually "international law." Countries that participate in GATT do so because they desire the benefits of being in GATT. Nor does it cover what you are describing.

    TQ: "But some cunning guys avoided some sensitive properties like Human Intellectual power (That is a property trading between two countries as part of Globalization) out of GATT law. So if human intellectual property ever gonna be under GATT. America have to pay India $300 billions/year as GATT agreement service charge for using the intellectual brain of Indian software Engineers."

    There is nothing like that in GATT.

    Furthermore, India does not accept most countries' claims on IPR (Intellectual Property Rights.) As a result, Indian companies can legally (according to the law of India) reverse engineer other companies' products (such as medicines) and sell them as their own, even exporting them. I am not suggesting that this is either proper or wrong; I am simply pointing it out as an area where India (as one example) does not adhere to "generally accepted" (i.e. enforced by the wealthiest of nations) international norms on intellectual property.

    TQ: "Nobody makes others rich."

    Of course not. Marx explained it so well: All value originates from the hands of the craftsman, and capital investments, tools, etc. have no value and should not be rewarded.

    Just out of curiousity, do you know my friend Rolf? With your bubbly view on life, you two should get together and be buddies.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  152. Cameron,
           I have read many of your posts before, so I'm writing this with the idea that I can have a fair discussion with you.
           About your comments on India as a country not having any laws pertaining to IPR. I think you have been provided mis-information on that. If you happened to know of any such credible cases I'd like to look into it. Contrary to your points there are enough IPR laws in India and they are enforced too. Even there was a Digital copyrights act enacted recently. I also very distinctly remember these laws being enforced, in some cases with co-operation from the FBI. So, Cameron if your concern is IPR, when doing business with an Indian firm, your fears are mis-placed.
           Also, on your reference to medicinal products being reverse engineered. Its a touchy subject. I hope you are aware that Indian medicine(Ayurvedha & many more) has been practiced for more than a millineum. I think its ridiculous, for someone in a developed country to file a patent after doing flimsy research and claim its their Intellectual property. I wouldnt be surprised if soon Yoga & Astrology are patented too.
           Btw, Indian healthcare is very good and I've known many cases where people from other countries come here to get treated. Their reason is very high health care cost and poor care in their respective countries. So, why is that people tend to look globally when it comes to their own bills, but want it the other way for their employees. I'm not accusing anybody here, just saying that there are benefits to individual people cause of globalization.
           Technically, if IPR should be enforced everywhere, then I hope you are also aware that the concept of "zero" was invented here. So, since all software binaries constitutes of 1's and 0's, would any software thats developed, India as country will have equal rights to it??? I know this sounds ridiculous to you. I'm just trying to make a point on the other side of IPR's.
           Anyway, it was very interesting to see a good discussion with view points from people in different countries. Each one has a valid point(though some where short sighted). I believe this Internet will bring people together and help understand each other in more deeper level.
    Peace.
    A.
  153. Well Done dude,
         Great points,

    T.Q
  154. Arun: "About your comments on India as a country not having any laws pertaining to IPR. I think you have been provided mis-information on that."

    I did not say that, and I did not mean to imply it either.

    What I said: In certain areas of IPR, such as medicine, the system in India does not recognize IPR in the same way that other countries do.

    Please note that I purposely avoided saying that it was a good thing or a bad thing. For example, it is often said that many countries could not afford certain drugs if India did not make those drugs as cheap as our "generics" in the USA, so there are many who argue that it is a good thing. On the other hand, those that developed the IP feel that they are being robbed, so they argue that it is a bad thing.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  155. <quote>On the other hand, those that developed the IP feel that they are being robbed, so they argue that it is a bad thing </quote>
    I am not sure whether people are aware that Americans did not provide any IP protection for books publised from Britain in the 19th centuary and they just blatantly pirate books from British without paying any single cents to the original publishers/authors. Basically when it's interest at stake , people will do all they can to protect it. If you don't lower the barrier and level the playing fields, it's difficult for developing countries to catchup. Sound like Monopoly right?

    Regards,
    Hun Boon

  156. Cameron,

    <Q>Just out of curiousity, do you know my friend Rolf? With your bubbly view on life, you two should get together and be buddies</Q>

    Hm.. so you are comparing me with TQ troll.
    Your comments before was always interesting. Now when you have retorted down to Slashdot level I suggest a little vacation. Why not? You could read up on your .NET skills.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
     
  157. Cameron: Just out of curiousity, do you know my friend Rolf? With your bubbly view on life, you two should get together and be buddies

    Rolf: Hm.. so you are comparing me with TQ troll.
    Your comments before was always interesting. Now when you have retorted down to Slashdot level I suggest a little vacation.

    Hmm. That's funny. I expected TQ to complain about being compared to a ".NET troll" ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!


  158. Cameron,


    It is unbelievable that only because persons are out of arguments for defending old Java legacy code they have to retort to personal bashing. Normally the best thing to do is just not to respond. You can be sure that I never will answer any more of your posts. May be you can help your friends so diatrical marks work in TSS work in a year or two?

    About .NET, I find your lack of faith...disturbing.

    for the last time
    bye
    Rolf Tollerud
     
  159. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Pretty much, exactly what Mark Nuttall said.
  160. USA vs Europe[ Go to top ]

    Published Studies in the news and TV in USA, claim that the USA education is less than average, and less than 3rd world countries.
    Eastern Europe, Asia even Philippines have better than USA.
    USA is better than Africa and South America in education.
    Most professors, MDs or scientists are not from USA.

    USA has internal propaganda to call itself land of the free, yet they have more police per capita than any other place, carrying guns in the streets.

    So USA is a policed land of un-educated. They are not able to compete with EU.


    tg
  161. USA vs Europe[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    So USA is a policed land of un-educated. They are not able to compete with EU.
    </quote>

    Huh?
  162. I think SUN it self is in trouble. With IBM, APACHE, BEA and LINUX - JAVA is here to stay...

    Its like saying that Newton is dead, so will apples still fall on the ground ???

    p.s for those who dont kno :) - Newton was the first one to come out with a name to the "gravitational" force and laws governing it.
  163. "Newton was the first one to come out with a name to the "gravitational" force and laws governing it."

    While he worked at Apple? Or before then?
  164. BofA is sending more work abroad

    Laid-off employees said they have been asked to sign two sets of papers: One states that the employee will receive two weeks' severance for every year he or she worked for the bank. The other says severance will be canceled if the employees talk to the media or quit before a certain date. They've also been asked to help train their Indian counterparts before their final day.

    "The days of being a developer at Bank of America are numbered," said a programmer worried about supporting a wife and children.

    The employees declined to give their names on the record, for fear of losing their jobs or severance.

    A few were sipping beers, saying that it didn't matter what they did because their jobs were gone anyway.
  165. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Wow, Wow
        During the dot COM heavenly time 1999 and 2002. I used to work with Bank of America Securities with MPCS applications. Bank of America desperately wants be in Java. The company, who paid millions of dollars to IBM for buying AS400 and run the business in San Francisco office, didn't have much man power to use JAVA with out fear. They called 100s of big guys in Bay area for helping and running the business. All of them was either riding the BMW, which given by their dot com company and stick with 8 hours daily work. They didn't have time to help BOFA with an additional effort cuz they had to go for ride with their new oriental girl friends (which are very cheap in San Francisco) in their new company BMW. Then BOFA turned into Indian software engineers, Bofa for the first time decided to sponsor H1 visa directly, They hired talented, and trust worthy software engineers, tried to build a business with some ethics. SO WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL, NOW TELLING OTHERS TO LEAVE???
       cuz business is always a two way mechanism and ethics and talents from both side work together there. You can not expect only from one side. I used to wake up 3 O clock to being in office at 5 AM, take the BART and be in office to support MPCS system when 8 O clock in NY. Cuz I believed in the importance of Bofa business more than my Oriental girls friends touch.
       I still know 100s of my co-workers in BOFA for years cuz of their great service and responsibilities to work.

  166. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    TQ, you're a regular riot. There's a word for what you do: it's call trolling. Internet trolling, that is.
  167. Well, the whole discussion about globalization, H-1B, etc. is kinda pointless because in a capitalistic culture like that of the US, what finally matters for businesses is only one thing: profitability. whether they increase profitability by recruiting H-1Bs or outsourcing work to India, they will do it. If tomorrow outsourcing work to India becomes as expensive as hiring American workers, businesses will stop doing that automatically.

    and finally regarding "erosion of jobs in the US due to outsourcing.." well, that's an unwelcome "side effect" of "globalization"... capitalism is a double-edge sword!
  168. Mark Nuttall wrote:"I hope you are right Don. And I hope it raises the cost of doing business there. Sorry I was a little pesimistic. "
     
             Mark, I felt that you were not really pessimistic but just your anger a little misplaced. Just as Don pointed out, the cost of living in India is rising and soon it might not make sense to outsource projects here. But, dont hold your breath , that when it happens, all those jobs will be created back in U.S. Businesses there are still going to find other alternative resources they can best use. So, your anger against a specific country is mis-placed.
            Actually, some Indian s/w services companies have already opened development shops in cheaper places like China, Vietnam etc., just to stay competetive(taking jobs away from India). So, Globalization is not just affecting U.S its affecting everybody else too. But, dont wish away globalisation yet. Its like going back to those old days. Understand why the world is moving towards this trend. Globalisation, gives the freedom to use the best pool of resources whereever it might be. This way you are able to enjoy cheaper products at your home, able to get life saving drugs for affordable prices..etc.
            This trend of globalisation is inevitable. People, better learn to develop skills to cope up with it, or they will be left behind.
    Peace,
    A.

    Cameron,
           Thanks for the clarification of your view points.
    A.
  169. " Globalisation, gives the freedom to use the best pool of resources whereever it might be. "

    No, it allows them to get the work done at the cheapest cost, which is not the same thing. I've worked on projects where the software was horrible, the they ultimately failed, because of short-sited management trying to save a buck. The people that wrote the software make off like a bandit, and those left with it pay the price for that greed. Not to mention the jobs it eliminated here.
  170. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    I talked to someone the other day in the furniture industry. They are shipping in products from over seas that were previously being made here. They have kept people here to fix the shoddy workmanship on the products being shipped here. Of course that company will soon have to send all their jobs overseas because they won't be able to pay anyone here. Of course all those people out of work here won't be able to buy their products so they won't need the overseas workers soon either.


    Tracy, according to TQ and others we should be learning new skills to cope. How good are you at farming/gardening, hunting/trapping, building your own furniture? Know where I can get a good cow, mule and loom for a good price?

  171. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Mark, "Tracy, according to TQ and others we should be learning new skills to cope. How good are you at farming/gardening, hunting/trapping, building your own furniture? Know where I can get a good cow, mule and loom for a good price? "

    Lol, exactly. It would be real convenient for tq if we just "gave up" and went into farming or something.

    The problem we face as Americans is, we will always be at a tremendous disadvantage because of the quality of life we enjoy. People in third-world countries are used to having it very rough and working for very little. That stacks the deck in their favor quite a bit. All we have if the advantage of geography, but these days, it doesn't matter if I'm ftping from here in Dallas or in banglidesh, so geography matters less and less.

  172. <quote>
    The problem we face as Americans is....."
    </quote>

    I think the real problem is that for lots of reasons, the 'heavy lifting' jobs (i.e. manufacturing) don't exist in America any more like they used to, and there a lot of people that either didn't realize it or it's too late for them to do something about it. If you fit into the category of unskilled labor in the U.S. things are only going to get worse.

    -Scott
  173. Scott Dodson, "If you fit into the category of unskilled labor in the U.S. things are only going to get worse. "

    As well as skilled labor I wager...

  174. I agree. I hope it gets better, but things don't look like they're heading up anytime soon. At least for professional-types like us there seems to be more of a chance to at least stay employed. For a factory worker the prospects must look horrible.

    I'm still waiting for Bush's economic stimulus package. Should be coming any day now. Really. (Here come the flames!)

    -Scott
  175. Scott Dodson, "I'm still waiting for Bush's economic stimulus package. "

    Gees I hope you have a backup plan... he's 1/3 the reason we're in this mess as it is. Too bad we couldn't have made an exception to the 8 year max presidential term.

    Oh, and is it just me, or does anyone else have a reeeeeally hard time deciphering tq's ramblings?
  176. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    I'm with you on the rambling part. He obviously has no clue on what it takes to do the job. A logic test?


    I don't agree on the other thing. Things were going downhill before the current administration. I don't think we could take more of the before. At least there was more entertainment.
  177. Arun,
      I am not angry at India or any other country. You misunderstood. They have every right to work and make money and make a good living. I am angry at short sighted companies and at those in government who can't see their policies (like taxing us 'to death' and sending Billions of dollars elsewhere) are destroying the country I love.

    <Q>This way you are able to enjoy cheaper products at your home, able to get life saving drugs for affordable prices..etc. </Q>

    It is tough to enjoy cheaper products with no money.

    <Q>
    This trend of globalisation is inevitable. People, better learn to develop skills to cope up with it, or they will be left behind.
    </Q>

    Yeah, like raising ones own food and hunting for meat, etc. I don't think globalization is as good for the world as you think.

    <Q>
    Globalisation, gives the freedom to use the best pool of resources whereever it might be
    </Q>

    Not true. It gives the freedom to get the cheapest pool. If they are more talented, it is a side effect.
  178. Arun Kumar writes:

    <Mark, I felt that you were not really pessimistic but just your anger a little misplaced. Just as Don pointed out, the cost of living in India is rising and soon it might not make sense to outsource projects here. But, dont hold your breath , that when it happens, all those jobs will be created back in U.S. Businesses there are still going to find other alternative resources they can best use. So, your anger against a specific country is mis-placed.>

    Compared to a decade ago Indian programmer's incomes and their skill levels have risen considerably. Our experience then was that Indian 'outsourcing' projects failed at rates exceeding US-based ones. Mostly because managing projects happening 12 time zones away is extremely difficult. I expect similar results this time.

    What did seem to work was to build software shops which handled the entire life cycle out there in India. At least it worked more often than pure 'outsourcing' did. But that meant US managers had to give up control, which is a limited marketplace at best.

    There are two things going on right now. First, new development projects have collapsed for 18 months now. At the same time, India is getting a larger proportion than normal of the new development work that IS out there. Because it's cheaper. So US orgs are managing projects in the same old brain-dead way, this time with cheaper Indian labor.

    The end result will be cheaper failed projects. But why invest in failed projects at all? Why not change your methods to make success more likely? A cheap failure is a failure, while a relatively expensive success is a success.

    "Actually, some Indian s/w services companies have already opened development shops in cheaper places like China, Vietnam etc., just to stay competetive(taking jobs away from India).!"

    I have to question how well this will work. India has an enormous advantage, the English language skills of the workforce. Price is not all, success and quality play a big role. I'm not saying that some Chinese and Vietnamese programmers won't succeed, but that there are enormous barriers to that success. Mexican programmers cost less than Indian ones do despite their proximity to the US. Does that tell us something? I think so.

    Will the outsourced jobs come back to the US? Perhaps not. But development jobs will resume as the recession ends. A lot of those jobs will be in the US. The skills and experience are in the US, whereas I would guess that Indian labor markets are pretty much maxed out or at leasst unable to provide 500,000 unemployed experienced programmers at short notice as the US could easily do right now.
  179. Don,
        You are spot on right that, development jobs will resume when the recession ends. But my point is, this time the developers need to be more smart. They have to learn from the changes that has happened around them during this lean period. If programming is the only skill they have to offer, their employers are soon going to find a way to replace that skill with a cheaper resource. Companies are starting to look at "programming skills" as a commodity. They are most likely to seek out for the best price-to-quality of this commodity. This is something every developer has to realize whether they are in US/Uk/India. Globalisation will affect everybody sooner or later.
        Now there are two choices. One can just keep worrying about this and do nothing or else accept the changes and do something about it. Try to find out, what skills other than just programming that will help your employer. Develop, those skills. As an example, I already know some of my friends here in India are learning the Japanese language and some are into Mandarin. They understand the benefits of having multiple skills. They understand their companies needs and adapt themselves to it.

    Don wrote:
    < Compared to a decade ago Indian programmer's incomes and their skill levels have risen considerably. Our experience then was that Indian 'outsourcing' projects failed at rates exceeding US-based ones. Mostly because managing projects happening 12 time zones away is extremely difficult. I expect similar results this time. >
         I think IT outsourcing has come a long way. There were lot of failures cause of issues you pointed out. But both the companies(the one outsourcing and the one executing) have learnt their lessons and have refined their processes, especially the biggies.
         I'm very optimistic that the job market will get better soon. Its only a matter of time. My best wishes on your job hunt.
         Don, thanks for your well thought out view points instead of an emotional outburst and trying to predict dooms day. I always appreciate them.
         Btw, I have many friends there in USA. They have said many great things about that country, especially about the people. I believe them too. Its only sad to hear comments like "I'm glad they're laying off the Americans, we're safe."
         
    A.
     
  180. Arun Kumar wrote
    <You are spot on right that, development jobs will resume when the recession ends. But my point is, this time the developers need to be more smart. They have to learn from the changes that has happened around them during this lean period.>

    Always have been, always will be. Recessions can also be shock therapy to the complacent. Particularly those who haven't been keeping up. Ed Yourdon (the methodology guru) wrote two books a decade back which made this point very well. 'Decline and Fall of the American Programmer' (1993)and 'Rise and Ressurrection of the American Programmer' (1997). His point was that those who keep up will thrive, but that the kind of programmer who hasn't learned anything new for 5 years is an endangered species.

    <If programming is the only skill they have to offer, their employers are soon going to find a way to replace that skill with a cheaper resource. Companies are starting to look at "programming skills" as a commodity.>

    You have to look at your skills at a higher level. One way to look at it is asking 'what is the customer buying?'. If you can contribute to that goal rather than only cutting code, you are on a right track.

    <Now there are two choices. One can just keep worrying about this and do nothing or else accept the changes and do something about it. Try to find out, what skills other than just programming that will help your employer. Develop, those skills.>

    Look at what is happening in the profession. If you focus too much on the current employer that can be misleading as well. Loyalty is largely dead, at least in the US. You have to be 'loyal' to the market, not only the current market but the market as you project it will be in 3 and 5 years!

    <As an example, I already know some of my friends here in India are learning the Japanese language and some are into Mandarin. They understand the benefits of having multiple skills. They understand their companies needs and adapt themselves to it.>

    Why not? Japan is now and will continue to be a huge market for Indian programming shops. China? Learning Mandarin would seem to be a way of communicating with inexpensive Chinese programmers more than a 'customer' thing. If I'm correct about the limited demand for 'cheap' programers who don't speak and read English well, Mandarin will have limited value.

    Another problem is gathering fluency. Unless you can live in a place where you can use the language daily you are going to have a problem learning enough to be useful.

    Personally I would choose Cantonese over Mandarin on the basis that my customers and strategic partners in China are going to be closer to HK than to Bejing.
  181. Don,
       You are right that focusing on the market demands than to just the employer would be more wise. I was sharing more of my current experience with my employer than trying to provide advice to anybody. I think I'm not really experienced enough to give advices/suggestions as you are able to.
       About China........the Japanese & the Korean markets tend to prefer doing business with China than India as the language/cultural barriers are minimal. Thats one reason, Indian companies are starting to setup development shops in China. Just to cater to the Japanese, Korean & Far east markets better. So, its not really about cheap programmers, but actually to serve some of their clients better. Unfortunately as a side effect, some jobs will be moved away from India.
       Yeah, I'll pass on your thoughts about Mandarin or Cantonese to my friends.
    A.
  182. I wrote:
    << Compared to a decade ago Indian programmer's incomes and their skill levels have risen considerably. Our experience then was that Indian 'outsourcing' projects failed at rates exceeding US-based ones. Mostly because managing projects happening 12 time zones away is extremely difficult. I expect similar results this time. >>

    Arun Kumar replied: <I think IT outsourcing has come a long way. There were lot of failures cause of issues you pointed out. But both the companies(the one outsourcing and the one executing) have learnt their lessons and have refined their processes, especially the biggies.>

    The problems I've been referring to are not quite as tractable as you might believe. I worked at an Italian software firm which has since achieved SEI Level 4. Very methodology and process-driven. And I continue to believe in process. Lean process like eXtreme Programming.

    The problem with outsourcing is at base a communication gap and a time gap. Outsourcing projects going to India have to have very tight requirements to overcome the time differential unless Indian analysts and programmers can work during Western working hours. Even then the fact that they cannot colocate with the customer will reduce productivity by as much as 30 or 40%. This tends to stretch out the schedule, and the communication gap will raise the possiblity that requirements changes cannot be accomodated, increasing the risk that the delivered system (no matter how well executed) will be useless when delivered. I've been there, I know. The Italian company I worked for delivered a wonderful system which was useless by the time acceptance testing was complete!

    Time is not of the essence right now, but it will be again when the economy recovers. Given the choice whether to minimize time and cost, the company which damns the cost and pushes ahead willbe first to market. Later entrants who minimize costs will have well-crafted, cheap systems which carve out a 3% market share.....

    <Btw, I have many friends there in USA. They have said many great things about that country, especially about the people. I believe them too. Its only sad to hear comments like "I'm glad they're laying off the Americans, we're safe." >

    The US is a great country, but I'm sure that India is as well. I've long wanted to visit India. Perhaps next year....

    As for the chaps who are 'glad'? What happens when they get their green card and become 'Americans' in all but passport details. I hope for their sake that they don't allow themselves to become a commodity, because 10 years down the road they will be the ones dumped. Don't forget that people like Tracy have potential political power, and the number of green cards and H1B visas can shrink....
  183. Arun, " Now there are two choices. One can just keep worrying about this and do nothing or else accept the changes and do something about it. Try to find out, what skills other than just programming that will help your employer. Develop, those skills. As an example, I already know some of my friends here in India are learning the Japanese language and some are into Mandarin. They understand the benefits of having multiple skills. They understand their companies needs and adapt themselves to it. "

    Arun, I don't know about you, but I didn't go to college and get 10 years of experience of speaking japannese, I went to college to learn how to do what I loved to do in high school - program computers. I don't WANT to learn anything else! THat's my passion.
  184. Perhaps you should learn Japanese, Tracy[ Go to top ]

    Tracy wrote:

    "Arun, I don't know about you, but I didn't go to college and get 10 years of experience of speaking japannese, "

    at the very least you'd have a language to express your less PC thoughts in. Too many of them know what 'merda' means, so you have to go more exotic.....
  185. DOn, "Compared to a decade ago Indian programmer's incomes and their skill levels have risen considerably. "

    Don, I agree with most of what you say as usual. The only thing is, you seem to be focusing in on India and how their rates are getting closer to ours. The problem is, like mycolleage here at work said, companies will just turn and start reaching into other corners of the world, even jungles perhaps, to find the cheapeast labor possible. In fact, the two places I've worked that outsourced major development projects, neither of them were in India. One was Manilla, and the other was Columbia. Both were HORRIBLE examples of how to code. We basically re-wrote them both.
  186. tracy Milburn wrote:

    "Don, I agree with most of what you say as usual. The only thing is, you seem to be focusing in on India and how their rates are getting closer to ours."

    India has a unique advantage in that they were a low-wage economy in which most people fluently speak and read English. Not quite, the Irish also occupied that niche. Salaries in both places have skyrocketed in the 90's, because of the market demand.

    "The problem is, like mycolleage here at work said, companies will just turn and start reaching into other corners of the world, even jungles perhaps, to find the cheapeast labor possible."

    Yes. And they DON'T get what they paid for. They can pay up front by paying for decent talent during development (whether US or India or Europe doesn't matter from a quality POV) or they can pay later by building a system which either bombs right off or requires massive maintenance expenditures.

    "In fact, the two places I've worked that outsourced major development projects, neither of them were in India. One was Manilla, and the other was Columbia. Both were HORRIBLE examples of how to code. We basically re-wrote them both."

    Have you ever read Fred Brook's 'The Mythical Man-Month'? There is a chapter entitled 'Plan to build it twice'.

    When you had to recode the company paid to do the system twice, no? Let's assume that your recode cost (say) $100,000 and the Columbian system cost $40,000. Probably more when all the testing and other cockamamie BS connected to an unready system is added in. So management paid $14oK for a system that would have cost them $100K had they done it correctly first time? No?

    It seems like every new generation of dunderheads (sorry, I mean geniuses) has to learn this lesson the hard way first. Every 10 years....
  187. Well, after paying the other country to do it, then us to re-write it, get this, we're under contract to send them back our codebase and pay them yearly maintenance on it! Man what a sweet deal for them. While we get raped.
  188. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Does the contract say 'when' you have to send it back?
  189. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    "Does the contract say 'when' you have to send it back? "

    Well, I probably shouldn't say anymoer about this guys...
  190. "Well, after paying the other country to do it, then us to re-write it, get this, we're under contract to send them back our codebase and pay them yearly maintenance on it! Man what a sweet deal for them. While we get raped."

    i think this tracy guy is one frustrated chap. it's ok man/woman (i dont know if you are male or female).. i understand your frustration.. it's human to be frustrated..
    but you can't do nothin' about it sadly.. only thing you can do is read up on J2EE design patterns and such and hope that you wont lose your job to a foreign worker!

    regards.
  191. <Q>
    i think this tracy guy is one frustrated chap. it's ok man/woman (i dont know if you are male or female)..
    </Q>

    You've been told.

    <Q>but you can't do nothin' about it sadly</Q>

    So he can do something and that is something to be sad about?

    <Q>
    .. only thing you can do is read up on J2EE design patterns and such and hope that you wont lose your job to a foreign worker!
    </Q>

    Skill set has nothing to do with it. There may be a few companies that care if someone knows J2EE design patterns. It is mostly word and not deed. They wouldn't know it if they saw it. (the fact that the company you quoted last week requires Weblogic knowledge proves the point) Most only care if one can get code into production quickly and cheaply. Once and/or if the cost difference is minimized, the jobs going to 'foreigners' will cease. If it isn't, they won't.

    Obviously a reasonably good handle of the English Language doesn't matter either. (not looking for perfection - just make some sense).
  192. Mark Nuttal wrote: "Skill set has nothing to do with it. There may be a few companies that care if someone knows J2EE design patterns. It is mostly word and not deed. They wouldn't know it if they saw it. (the fact that the company you quoted last week requires Weblogic knowledge proves the point) Most only care if one can get code into production quickly and cheaply. Once and/or if the cost difference is minimized, the jobs going to 'foreigners' will cease. If it isn't, they won't."

    It may be word and not deed but I've been learning that it does matter. You have to be able to discuss things like that on your feet if you want to land a decent job in this market. If I were willing to take a 33% cut in pay perhaps it would be different, but I want at least 80% of what I was getting, more if possible. And to do that you have to be able to sling the jargon as well as cut code quickly and cheaply......

    You are not meeting what their real needs are, you are competing against others to look like the best available.

    I suggest that you and tracy have another look at eXtreme Programming. Tracy looked at it and said BS. I look at it and see something which I can do that Indian guys (and chinese, Filipinos, Malaysians, etc) cannot do nearly as easily. That translates into a competitive advantage in my book......
  193. Don, there are some aspects of xp that make sense.

    Certainly, any competitive edge will help... but it all doesn't mean squat if there are no jobs.
  194. <Tracy>
    Don, there are some aspects of xp that make sense
    </Tracy>

    If that is the case, then what aspects of XP don't make sense?


    <Tracy>
    Certainly, any competitive edge will help... but it all doesn't mean squat if there are no jobs.
    </Tracy>

    I thought you said there *were* jobs, they were just all going overseas. I think Don was suggesting that some of XP's values are hard to duplicate in an environment where work is being done in another country. Aligning yourself with a company who values developers working closely with the customer gives you greater certainty that you will not be replaced by foreign labor.

    Ryan
  195. Ryan Breidenbach wrote:

    "If that is the case, then what aspects of XP don't make sense?"

    I just read the first Kent Beck book through in a single sitting, and as far as I'm concerned there isn't a single thing there which 'doesn't make sense'. Including pair programming, which I've tried once or twice.

    There are corporate cultures in which you would not have a prayer of implementing xP, but that is not at all the same as it 'not making sense'. xP is the way I would do things if I were the one making the decisions. Even the relative lack of privacy is tolerable if you're working a 40 hour week.

    Ryan: "I thought you said there *were* jobs, they were just all going overseas."

    There are *always* jobs. There are jobs in the US, there arre jobs in the UK and London. Even when industry is bleeding from the eyeballs there are jobs. The jobs are harder to find and land but they are there. The usual 'slots' aren't there. To land a real job, you have to locate a need and show that you are able to fulfill the need. And that only begins with the job spec. You have to be able to inspire confidence.

    I blew my first interview 10 days ago because I didn't inspire confidence. I wasn't prepared to discuss the intimate parts of the servlet life cycle then. I am now, aand the next time they ask I'll knock them dead. I'm working on other things now. Just had a phone interview tonight, and believe I did alright. On to step 2 I think. Wish me luck.

    An xP consulting shop gearing up in London Towne, BTW. I've never done xP on a project but I could.


    Ryan: "I think Don was suggesting that some of XP's values are hard to duplicate in an environment where work is being done in another country. Aligning yourself with a company who values developers working closely with the customer gives you greater certainty that you will not be replaced by foreign labor."

    Precisely. The only question to me is not whether it works from either a technical or a business value POV. The question is whether xP can be sold into the Global 500 successfully.

  196. Don, "There are *always* jobs. There are jobs in the US, there arre jobs in the UK and London. Even when industry is bleeding from the eyeballs there are jobs. "

    Of course there are "Jobs" I have a friend that has applied for both of them!

    And for each, there are possibly thousands applying - one would have a better shot at becoming a rock star.
  197. Tracy wrote: "Of course there are "Jobs" I have a friend that has applied for both of them!"

    "And for each, there are possibly thousands applying - one would have a better shot at becoming a rock star."

    I can't really address the job situation in Dallas becaause I don't know. I don't work through Computerworld or anything like it. I garner most of my leads through Jobserv.com, which is the UK/Europe's version of monster.

    I send an initial customized cover letter email with CV attached to the recruiter, then follow up with a personal call. Always, because it raises the chance that the recruiter will actually pay attention to the CV from perhaps 5% to at least 50%. Anything I can do to get a recruiter personally engaged with me is valuable. I've had recruiters tell me that I've gone into their 'hot folders' because of the way I operate.

    When I bodge an interview, I analyze why and take steps to prevent it happening again. Such as reviewing critical skills the way I would prepare for a final exam in college, or doing a project to nail down the answers to something I'm too fuzzy on.

    My parameters are unusually wide. I will take any job and do anything I am qualified to do. I will move to the work if necessary. I have a wide range of skills, some semi-rare. When my CV is in a recruiters database I will tend to come up a lot for that reason, and also because my CV is specifically crafted in a way which makes it more likely to 'hit' on DB searches.

    The results are pretty good. I've been at it for about 3 weeks now, not counting the last week when most of my efforts have been review and preparation. I've had two interviews this far for jobs I am convinced exist and I can do. I blew one because I wasn't prepared enough, but the specific problem won't happen again. I figure I have a 50-70% chance to go through to round 2 on the second interview. Today I landed another interview for a short consulting gig in the London Financial district (the City). The recruiter believes I have a 50% or better shot.

    It's a lousy market out there, but there are things which you can do to improve the odds a lot. But sending unsupported resumes won't cut it in this market. At each step they will look at the effort you made and the response will often be proportionate to that effort. For instance, I always write my reasoning for seeking the jpb in my cover letter. If I'm not sure it's a fit I'll say so, then ask to talk about it. If I'm dead-certain qualified I say that also. You'd be surprised how many 'instant' callbacks' I get.

    One thing you must do is market to the recruiter. They are recruiters, not headhunters. At least now they are. The personal cover letter, customized resume, and followup call show communication skills, which make it much more likely (in their eyes) that you can land the job and earn them a fee. Right now this is very, very important.

    Then you prepare so you can sound like you know what you are doing in the interview. You may be up against 4 or 5 other people. 15-20% chance which isn't bad. 5-10 of them and you're earning a paycheck again. But you can raise the chance to 50% or more by the way you prepare. Look up the company on the internet and show interest and knowledge. Look at what skills they seem to value and swot up. Perhaps even bring a laptop and offer to show a demo. Some won't be impressed but believe me you will blow the socks off of many of them. If only because you show both commitment and energy.
  198. Me: "There are *always* jobs. There are jobs in the US, there are jobs in the UK and London. Even when industry is bleeding from the eyeballs there are jobs. "

    Tracy Milburn wrote: "Of course there are "Jobs" I have a friend that has applied for both of them!"

    Tracy, I just landed a contract after less than 4 weeks on the job search. Interview #3 was the charm. AND it's a really good one from a skills development POV. Not a ton of £'s, but enough. And I had a 4th interview which may become another contract in good time.

    Tracy Milburn: "And for each, there are possibly thousands applying - one would have a better shot at becoming a rock star."

    On the contract I won there were two people interviewed. I haven't the slightest idea how many CV's were sent for it. I'm convinced that the key to landing a gig is communication. When I write the email I send a custom cover letter stating why I want the job and how my qualifications fit the job req. Then I call the recruiter the next day. At the very least this forces the recruiter to actually READ the CV rather than leaving it on his enormous inbox. I'd say that this jomps the probability of getting a submittal by 10X or even more.

    I believe that actually getting your CV in that small pile in front of the client is the real key to winning the dogfight. That and the ability to perform in the interview of course.

    Four interviews in one month for me. The first I botched (and learned from), the second was barely off, the third won, and the fourth may win.
  199. Ryan, I won't response to your "witty" questions, that would be a waste of my time.

    As for this little jewel,

    "Aligning yourself with a company who values developers gives you greater certainty that you will not be replaced by foreign labor. "

    Please, let us all know when you find a company that fits that description.
  200. <Tracy>
    Ryan, I won't response to your "witty" questions, that would be a waste of my time.
    </Tracy>

    I only asked one question, and I don't know what was "witty" about it. You said that some aspects of XP make sense. I inferred that you do not think that *all* aspects of XP make sense. I was just wondering which aspects you felt fell into this category. Not sure why you took it the way you did.

    Actually, from an earlier thread, I seem to recall you bashing XP while admitting you have never actually tried it. All I was doing is simply trying to engage in a discussion - something to which you seem to object. Not sure why - kind of the whole point of a this site, right?

    <Tracy>
    "Aligning yourself with a company who values developers gives you greater certainty that you will not be replaced by foreign labor. "

    Please, let us all know when you find a company that fits that description.
    </Tracy>

    First of all, you quoted me out of context and left out the most crititical part of my statement. What I said was...

    "Aligning yourself with a company who values developers working closely with the customer gives you greater certainty that you will not be replaced by foreign labor."

    ...meaning that if you show your company their is value in having developers work face-to-face with those that make the requirements, there is less of a chance that business will want their software developed overseas.

    Secondly - my company fits this description and I work in the same city you do - Dallas, TX. By the way, I have worked at a couple of failed dot coms here that *did* farm out work to overseas. Guess what - I moved on to another job. That's life.

    Finally, what is your problem? You quote me out of context to fit your agenda. You always seem to lace your comments with jabs like "your 'witty' questions" and "as for this little jewel". Why are you so pissed off? Just wondering - you seem to get a lot of satisfaction from bitching all the time.

    Ryan
  201. Dude,
       Don't waste your time talking to such a fellow. I have already tried a 100 times, No way you can make a common opinion with that fellow. I just wonder who gave him/her( Not sure cuz name sounds like girlish) job in information technology cuz development is a team work. May be this fellow just sitting some where in Texas and writing all these -ve, narrow minded, arrogant comments in serverside.com .

  202. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    <Q>
    Dude,
       Don't waste your time talking to such a fellow. I have already tried a 100 times, No way you can make a common opinion with that fellow. I just wonder who gave him/her( Not sure cuz name sounds like girlish) job in information technology cuz development is a team work. May be this fellow just sitting some where in Texas and writing all these -ve, narrow minded, arrogant comments in serverside.com
    </Q>

    It seems you are the narrow minded, arrogant one. Check out your posts. No need to go any further than this post.

    I too think to do a good job at development teamwork is important. Can development be done without it? Sure. Most employers[whomever is in charge] don't encourage teamwork. Example - Cubicles and bad looks when you are in anothers cubicle - "Why aren't you programming?". So it is easy for someone you described to get work. At least is use to. This is why I said management needs to change for the US to keep tech jobs. They won't let us work in the best way. (Barring exceptions).

    Just because someone thinks pair programmming is 'bad' doesn't mean they don't like teamwork.

    Side note: Congrats on making sense throughout one post!
  203. <Mark>
    Most employers[whomever is in charge] don't encourage teamwork. Example - Cubicles and bad looks when you are in anothers cubicle - "Why aren't you programming?". So it is easy for someone you described to get work. At least is use to. This is why I said management needs to change for the US to keep tech jobs. They won't let us work in the best way. (Barring exceptions).

    Just because someone thinks pair programmming is 'bad' doesn't mean they don't like teamwork.
    </Mark>

    Couldn't agree more. I know that pair programming isn't for everybody, but I don't know why so many IT shops insist on creating the typical Dilbertesque environment of isolated cubes. To me, this absolutely kills working spirit.

    I wish more companies would adopt a more open, cube-free environment. I've have worked quite a bit in both environments, and I feel open environments foster a much more energetic working environment. People become more involved with each other and begin exchanging more ideas. In the end, better work is done because each piece of the project is not done by one person droning along by themself in a cube.

    The one knock I hear on open environments (and pair programming) is lack of privacy. What the hell do you need privacy for? You're WORKING! If you need to talk to your significant other for two hours a day, email you buddies, or surf the net in privacy, perhaps you need to find another job. If you need a few minutes of personal time a day, I'm sure you can step into a private area to conduct your bidness.

    And one more thing about pair-programming - give it a shot before you bash it. There are many benefits that have been studied and documented (but that is for another post).

    That's all for my mini-rant [this time ;-)]

    Ryan
  204. "And one more thing about pair-programming - give it a shot before you bash it"

    I have, or i wouldn't be talking about it. It was terrible, and greatly slowed down productivity.

    Next
  205. <Tracy>
    It was terrible, and greatly slowed down productivity.
    </Tracy>

    What didn't you like about it? How did it slow down productivity? What metrics of productivity are you using?

    Ryan
  206. I fear what the Dilbert organizations will do to it. They will drop the expensive parts like privacy cubes and pair programming. They will jam us in elbow to elbow, hunched over laptops. I've been in that kind of 'open' workspace recently and I want no part of it. The kind of 'open' workspace where anyone can walk in at any time and the salesmen are sitting there making their calls and the mobiles always going off.... Bedlam.

    I had no place to put my books and the facilities nazis were making me justify the drawers I used for my library on a monthly basis. One time one of them put my programming library out on the 'public' bookshelves, and $100 worth of books walked off before I caught the error and moved them under my desk.

    They will drop the 40 hour week which is what makes the intense pace bearable. That gives too much control to the peons, as do agile modelling and refactoring. They will allow us to write tests, but on a schedule which they set which has no time for writing tests. Agile modeling? You have to be joking! RUP all the way, and boat-anchor RUP at that.

    Excuse me, but while xP on a 40 hour week sounds like it will work very well, a lot of management will implement xP on a 60 hour week. Which sounds like hell on rollerskates to me!

    Finally they will keep their current mthods of evaluating their people which drive teams apart by putting the team members at each other's throats at evaluation time.

    The parts they adopt will make the office even more of a sweat shop than it is now.
  207. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    Mark, "Most employers[whomever is in charge] don't encourage teamwork. Example - Cubicles and bad looks when you are in anothers cubicle - "Why aren't you programming?". So it is easy for someone you described to get work. At least is use to. This is why I said management needs to change for the US to keep tech jobs. They won't let us work in the best way. (Barring exceptions).

    Very good points, I hadn't thought of that before.

    "Just because someone thinks pair programmming is 'bad' doesn't mean they don't like teamwork. "

    I started to say that same thing, but realize my audience was ryane and tq, and decided to do something more useful, like mowing my lawn or walking the dog...

  208. Ryan... no comment.
  209. Tracy...as usual.
  210. No, as usual would be to retort, but in your case i fear there would be no point.
  211. <Tracy>
    No, as usual would be to retort, but in your case i fear there would be no point.
    </Tracy>

    There would be no point because you never seem to have one.

    I don't see how you can bring something up, somebody asks you a very simple, reasonable question about it, and all you have are snide retorts. What's wrong with a little dialogue for crying out loud? Are you capable of anything other than Microsoft bashing a whining about what tough times these are?

    Ryan
  212. Ryan, "Are you capable of anything other than Microsoft bashing a whining about what tough times these are? "

    No
  213. Sun Cutting 11% of Work Force - Is Java in Trouble?[ Go to top ]

    There is a senior level Weblogic Developer + Architect job available in NY. They are looking for a person who has extenssive knowledge and work experience in Weblogic and BEA portal. I coudn't take that job cuz I got another one which pay a little more in a little less expenssive city. If anybody wouldlike to take that positions, please let me know.

    Thanks
    TQ
  214. <Q>
    It may be word and not deed but I've been learning that it does matter. You have to be able to discuss things like that on your feet if you want to land a decent job in this market.
    </Q>

    I'm not saying that I can or can't talk the talk (I can). It doesn't take that much to talk the talk. The thing is most don't really care. It comes down to price. Say the buzz words, flash a low price - your in. Most developers really are clueless when it comes to current technology and techniques. So how much more those managing them? So how are they going to really know what to do or if they are being told the truth or what the jargon really means?

    <Q>
    You are not meeting what their real needs are, you are competing against others to look like the best available.
    </Q>

    What are their real needs? Functional code at a minimum price. Crapy Code a minimum. We will always lose at that until we are at a level playing ground for our expenses. I don't think functional code meets their needs. It may seem to currently. But in the long run it doesn't. It doesn't take that much to do functional code.

    <Q>
    I suggest that you and tracy have another look at eXtreme Programming. Tracy looked at it and said BS. I look at it and see something which I can do that Indian guys (and chinese, Filipinos, Malaysians, etc) cannot do nearly as easily. That translates into a competitive advantage in my book......
    </Q>

    I do a form of XP. I said the part you thought was not good (pair programming) was actually good. While nothing is perfect, I think it a pretty good concept.


    What it all comes down to currently and for the most part is cost. And with the cost of living in America - it is very difficult to compete. Almost impossible. It is not just programming but help desk, customer service, manufacturing, ... .

    I am and have been doing what you suggested. But to make it possible companies are going to have to change how they work with vendors/contractors. They don't seem willing to do that.
  215. Sorry but my comments about XP where posted in another group. Hey, it is early.

    Anyway, Don, don't get me wrong. I believe, as developers, we should be constantly learning. You should see how much I've crammed into my few short years in this industry.
  216. IBM is turning towarding to Software and Service. Sun is still dependent on its HW heavily.

    IBM gave me a clear idea about its strategies: pushing eBusiness, pushing Opensource, making money from service. But what about Sun Micro ? SunOne, "Network is computer", that gave me no idea.

    In 1995, between NetWare and NT, I choose NetWare and became ealier NetWare 4 CNE in our Country. I thought I had made the correct decision about my career development. But, several years later, i had to change to Microsoft NT. To learn Microsoft, to forget Novell. Now, between Java and .Net. I choose non-Microsoft again. I really do not want to see "Java in trouble".

    "Cutting .." can not resolve Sun Micro's problem. Something wrong with their management, considering current business world. Tney may need to change CEO.
  217. 39400 - 4400 = 35000 people left.

     THIRTY-FIVE-THOUSAND !!

     I think that's far enough manpower left to keep the Java specs alive and kicking! If-if-if Sun were to disolve into ether, the community would quickly reorganize to keep the specs rolling.
    Here's an anti-pattern: What if *something* bad happened to M$? Who would maintain .Net? Certainly not their VB-ish "community".

     All the rest is irrelevant.