Discussions

News: BEA Publishes Scathing Criticism of Websphere 5 and IBM

  1. BEA has published a press release and some documents that criticize IBM and its upcoming Websphere 5 appserver. BEA claims that Websphere 5 is 2 years behind Weblogic 7, and questions IBM on Websphere's reliability, integration, administration and developer productivity, while claiming to be better in those regards.

    Check out:
    Document where BEA suggests it provides better integration, reliability, and developer productivity than IBM.

    Press Release giving 10 questions to ask IBM.

    These papers are obviously marketing driven, but is there any truth to the technical points they make?

    Threaded Messages (73)

  2. I may be oldfashioned and I am not that impressed
    by WAS (neither support for new standards or ease
    of use), but to me it is not good ethics to attack
    a competitor so directly.
  3. WELL DONE BEA[ Go to top ]

    Waiting for IBMs response - IBM will now hire 20 consultants , pay them huge $$$$ to go over BEA architecture, faults etc and respond back.
    And where will they recover all the $$$ they spent on this -? Its Easy - they will make it up in a day from any client using Web sphere. Just charge the client hell lot of money for services and not provide any proper documention and make sure the Web sphere programmer is totally confused and never walks a step without the IBM consultant. :)
       Some of u may not agree, but i m using web sphere for more than 4 years in a BIG organization and I kno how much the organization has paid for the IBM consulting services.
  4. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    I do not agree it is so well done. In my opinion the differences between platforms are clear but I am not sure the press release makes it clear to average project mgr or CIO.

    While I am no marketing person I still believe it could be articulated in shorter form - more to the point. Something like FAQ but with answers, the geeks may know the answers to these questions but the CIOs definitelly will not. By the time the CIO will start to see the thruth IBM sales army is sure to flood him with the whitepapers.

    BEA's advantage is quite clear in many areas, but they fail to convince decision makers, I am not sure if the latest release will help. So far they shoot themselves in the foot by providing logically structured and well documented product. (1)they loose the consulting revenue (2) through better portability they face increased competitions from the cheap guys (Orion, JBoss).
  5. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    I think you raise some good points but these points could apply to any of the competitors in the middleware space. Eventually utility software, including middleware, goes towards commodity. The goal of the utility providers is to stay ahead of the commoditization. I see BEA doing so with their products and technologies.

    In particular it looks to me that BEA is well positioned for the second wave of Web Services. These are marked by ebXML, Liberty, and Oasis. They are the things we developers will use to roll-out complex Web Services that can provide things like federated security, on-the-fly provisioning, and grid-style applications where functions come from multiple sources.

    If BEA plays their cards right you'll see WebLogic Workshop as this cool WYSIWYG development tool for building complex Web Services. The <coolness factor> is definately in Workshop. Their next move - to make it command their integration server and portal server and then to support the complex Web Service protocols -gives them a big advantage.

    -Frank
  6. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    Eventually utility software, including middleware, goes > towards commodity. The goal of the utility providers is > to stay ahead of the commoditization. I see BEA doing so > with their products and technologies.


    You've been reading too many Gartner articles ;) regarding the process of "commoditization." Remember, a commodity is a market in which the products are *not distinguishable* between vendors. Examples: corn, flour, FCOJ (Frozen Concentrated OJ).

    The reality is that companies (like BEA) experience price pressure, not commoditization. Even Microsoft is experiencing price pressure (see Linux) as competing products attain "good enough" status, but they are by no means a commodity producing company. Neither is BEA in the App Server space, nor Oracle in the RDBMS market.

    BEA benefitted big time in the late 90's b/c there were no viable offerings (i.e. product + services) either in the Enterprise arena (WebSphere was a complete dog) or in the Non-Mission Critical apps (Tomcat was/is a P.O.S. and JBoss has only recently emerged as a decent package). Customers were forced to buy WebLogic for these Non-Mission Critical apps. Once the Open Source products came around, BEA revenue took a hit.
  7. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    You make good points in your reply. Thank you.

    I think we may be missing each other on the term commoditization. As a developer I don't see the difference between running an Ant script in WebLogic to deploy a Java class-based Web Service and doing the same on the SunONE Application Server. They both achieve the same end point - a published Web Service. Both companies are working their tails off to deliver excellent technology but in light of the example they are both producing the same thing. That seems to fit the definition of commodity.

    Maybe its just symantecs? :-)

    -Frank
  8. BEA latest earnings report: 18 deals over $1M, vs. 12 deals over $1M a quarter ago, vs. 9 deals over $1M two quarers ago...

    BEA customers listed in the report and on their site: Visa, Verizon, ETrade, FedEx, United, DirecTV, Deautche Bank, Amazon, Virgin Mobile, British Telecom, Oppernheimer Funds, British Ariways, GM, Citibank... I assume these customer all gave their permission to use their names, right?

    There are literaly hundreds HUGE names there...

    Sure, BEA does not have large deployments, if you don't notice these. But, IBM doesn't even give us any data - what was the sales of WS last quarter? And I don't mean all 300 products that carry WS logo, but specifically app server? They don't do it. I heard, they give it away for free, and pay to those who actually goes life with it if they do some PR.

    My .02,
  9. I heard, they give it away for free


    I know they actually pay some customers to take (large quantities of) Websphere licenses.
    Or, in other words, they will charge you more for your other software/hardware/mainframes if you dont.

    While I am not sure this sort of press is good for anybody, I hope it encourages IBM to improve their record on standards support. I had high hopes this time last year - with their alpha release - that there had been a change in attitude. However, almost 12 months later... still no product.

    -Nick
  10. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    While making decesion for application server for our
    company, the fact that IBM Websphere is lagging in its
    support for various features (as BEA has aptly shown)
    was a considerable factor.

    I played with Weblogic and Websphere before, formed
    negative impression on Websphere on standard compliance
    and development tools (command line support included).

    I am surprised that why it took long for BEA to publish this
    study (highlighting the fact that IBM Websphere is lagging
    on many fronts) which was known in application server community for so long.

    Ultimately we went for Weblogic Application Server 6.1.

    Soumen Sarkar.
  11. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    <flaimbait>
    hell TMC cant even get a simple petstore to run on websphere for longer then 4 hours :)
    It must be crap right >:)
    </flaimbait>
  12. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    lol
  13. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    I grew up on BEA, and moved to websphere. Here are what I believe to be the facts.

    1) If you are a comman line programmer BEA is easier to use. (I believe the emergence of ANT makes , xdoclet etc. makes the differences between the products irrelevant !)

    2) Out of the box, JMS is easier with weblogic.

    3) IBM typically lags behind on the latest standards (assuming you thing the latest standards are of that great of value. Local interfaces anyone ??? ) JDK switching feature has just been put into their product line with the introduction of WSAD ( the succesor to VAJ)

    4) If you use an IDE, IBM beats the CRAP out of anything weblogic has to offer. VAJ (if you accept it's OO paradigmn) was a more PRODUCTIVE environment than any of the other IDE's for java/servlet/ejb development. This was due to the builtin light WAS environment. Their new product, WSAD is not quite as polished as VAJ, but it still very good.

    If you use WSAD or VAJ, deployment is trivial. If you don't, deployment is overly complex.

    gotta go !
  14. Just read weblogics criticism[ Go to top ]

    I think most of what they are Weblogic is saying is valid, but the emphasis on the latest greatest technology and them being 12-24 months ahead of IBM .... who cares ?? Most people I've consulted for can barely use the technology that came out 2 years ago.

    This fascination with the latest greatest is GREAT for small shops (I believe this IS where weblogic dominates) but the larger firms (with deep pockets) care more about consulting services, and being sure they have enought 'backup' to deliver their product. Right now J2ee is a speeding technology train. I don't think alot of people care if they are on the frist car (weblogic/jboss/orion) or on the last car(IBM). They just care that they are on the train.



    (I know, bad analogy.... I hate analogies ).

    Oh, by the way webservices with WSAD is trivial.
  15. Just read weblogics criticism[ Go to top ]

    Webservices on WSAD 4.0 is crappy cause of the standard it supports Apache SOAP. I will support AXIS in future which is effective but till now webservice tool is just a feeler and cannot be used to deploy production standard services.

    Webserviecs are going to be big game in times to come and who so ever has done better job in this race will be ahead in the game of be it anything.

    Got to go.
  16. Just read weblogics criticism[ Go to top ]

    Webservices on WSAD 4.0 is crappy etc etc


    This is kind of a broad statement, and unsubstantiated too.

    > but till now webservice tool is just a feeler and cannot > be used to deploy production standard services.

    On the contrary, the tools in WSAD 4 were already _very_ usable, and they _can_ be (and actually are) used in production environments.

    We did a project using WSAD webservice tooling a year ago and used it to integrate an expert system from another supplier into our system. Integration went very smooth and fast.
  17. Just read weblogics criticism[ Go to top ]

    I personally prefer weblogic... read
  18. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    4) If you use an IDE, IBM beats the CRAP out of anything weblogic has to offer. VAJ (if you accept it's OO paradigmn) was a more PRODUCTIVE environment than any of the other IDE's for java/servlet/ejb development.


    > If you use WSAD or VAJ, deployment is trivial. If you don't, deployment is overly complex.

    VAJ is one of the worst IDEs for ejb development I've seen.

    1. No deployment support. (Export of classes is not deployment.)

    2. Deployment tasks cannot be automated with tools like ant. (Ant4vaj cannot export ejbs.)

    3. No team support for ejb development (not the standard way like for java classes).

    4. The integrated WebSphere Test Environment (WTE) is an emulation of WebSphere. It's not the real WebSphere. So the problems and their solutions are not the same during development / debugging and system testing / production.

    5. WTE is slow. Edit - Compile - (Restart WTE) - Debug is slow.

    6. Editing the parameters of a datasource is not possible. (Delete and Recreate.)

    7. No team support for other files than java (properties, xml, ...).

    It takes half a day to write the proper ant scripts for deployment into different environments (develop, test, production) which can be integrated into any IDE that stores their files in the file system.

    One would need them anyway - even with WSAD, which is much better than VAJ - to have a reproducible, documented, versioned and tested build process.

    Ingo
  19. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    Long time since I heavily used VAJ for a project, so maybe my knowledge got rusty, but:

    1. No deployment support. (Export of classes is not deployment.)
    ==Even VAJ4 is for WAS3.5 not for WAS4.0, coz it supports only EJB1.0. EJB1.0 has no XML based DD, it is a .SER file telling AppServer how to deploy EJB. From this point of view, VAJ is the very good in providing a GUI editor for DD and hide the details of compile/serialize DD object for you. And VAJ can even cleanly export EJB Client JAR for you, which is missing in WSAD.

    2. Deployment tasks cannot be automated with tools like ant. (Ant4vaj cannot export ejbs.)
    ==At VAJ time, there is no other Java IDE providing integrated support of EJB development/deployment. VAJ is just perfect for EJB1.0.

    3. No team support for ejb development (not the standard way like for java classes).
    ==What's the stardard way? IBM defines how to team manage EJB Group/EJB in VAJ. You can find related doc on VADD.

    4. The integrated WebSphere Test Environment (WTE) is an emulation of WebSphere. It's not the real WebSphere. So the problems and their solutions are not the same during development / debugging and system testing / production.
    ==From time to time, the WTE inside VAJ is lagging behind the real WAS for production due to Fixpack issues. But 99% features are the same cross WTE and WAS. The beauty of WTE is you don't need install the production AppServer seperately, say the developer license fee of the AppServer.

    5. WTE is slow. Edit - Compile - (Restart WTE) - Debug is slow.
    ==True, start WTE is slow. But you can leverage the incremental compiling provided in VAJ, no need to restart WTE. Have you really tried this feature on VAJ? Incremental compile is in JDK1.4, but lost in WSAD right now.

    6. Editing the parameters of a datasource is not possible. (Delete and Recreate.)
    ==Yeah, this is an issue in VAJ.

    7. No team support for other files than java (properties, xml, ...).
    ==I think it is available with the lastest Fixpack to VAJ.

    If you have ever developed EJB projects based on EJB1.0, or WAS3.5, you will admit VAJ is the best choice you can have.

    Don't forget even BEA provides Weblogic plugin for VAJ3.5/4.0 to leverage this IDE. If it is not good, why BEA spent money to develop their plugin on it?

    Now, I use Eclipse/Lomboz/ for normal development. If I need fancier stuff, just pull WSAD.
  20. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    3. No team support for ejb development (not the standard way like for java classes).
    ==What's the stardard way? IBM defines how to team manage EJB Group/EJB in VAJ. You can find related doc on VADD.

    We are doing it. Guess it is supported. EJBs aren't "standard Java classes anyway". They do have an additional Tool for developing them.

    7. No team support for other files than java (properties, xml, ...).
    ==I think it is available with the lastest Fixpack to VAJ.

    We are using 3.5.3 (Slowly moving to WSAD) and we have team support for other files. Look under the resource tab. I like WSAD better for this but it is there.

    Anyway, all this talk about VAJ - it is history, or very soon to be.
  21. Maybe to blury and to late[ Go to top ]

    ...well, I don't agree that Orion and JBoss are just
    the "cheap guys"! Oracle JDeveloper costs lesser, and can't
    say they're just "CHEAP"! May be Orion and JBoss don't
    charge for the gift-wrapper and the lips-stick female - who
    may otherwise serve, but only for the chocolate!

    Besides... though it's kind of suicide that BEA loses it's
    consulting revenue... 'coz of their well documented manual
    and online helps... shouldn't we developers be happy about
    it?
  22. WELL DONE BEA[ Go to top ]

    I disagree.
    To me, BEA has adopted a rather defensive attitude which shows that other appserver vendors are closer than ever (if not already in front) and that they lack an actual killing argument against their competitors.
    My opinion is that BEA is now squeezed between free appserver on the lowerend market and $$$appserver with 'almost' same features in the upperend.
    If they don't get married very soon, they will die.

    Laurent.
  23. Though, I think its healthy that BEA is questioning IBM and may be vice-versa(I m sure, u will see something from IBM too), but I think its clear BEA is begining to feel the heat (in terms of their license revenue).

    This jab is clearly a result of that, including, i think, coz of JBoss and Oracle too. Lets be fair all these companies can still survive by not selling their respective App servers, BEA cannot. If i m not mistaken their bread n butter is license revenue.

    But this shud not take away the fact that bea has a good product and its good they are questioning IBM, though i dont agree with all the things they have pointed out, but anyway.
  24. theserverside.com should be renamed as thefightingside.com.

    Events so far,

    1. PetStore fighting( people say benchmarking/performance ..bla..bla)
    2. Sun Vs Ms fighting
    Now, brand new... BEA vs IBM.

    What the hell is happening??, Every time i come to serverside i read a good fighting story and finally see that i wasted my time.

    Cheers
    Zulfi
  25. I agree with you Zulfi. I check up on TSS periodically and usually just sign off in disgust. People seem to thrive on diatribe, and the side discussion about gas chambers is shameful, in my opinion.
  26. Hi Ken,

    I agree on the poor use of analogies, but since you work with WebSphere (I assume you still are at IBM using WebSphere) could you comment on some of the specific points in the BEA piece. There were a couple things that caught my eye (something about connections for example) that didn't sound true.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  27. WebSphere 5 has been released. Here is a link for more information.

    http://www-3.ibm.com/software/websphere/info/platformv5/index.jsp
  28. "... to me it is not good ethics to attack
    a competitor so directly. "


    Is it ethical to let companies just blindly walk into the gas chambers of websphere?

    Is it good for anyone or any company if they waste money on such an inefficient kludge as Websphere is ( 300 products and $11 spent on services for every dollar on product -per IBMs own study!)

    It is because of "products" like websphere that gives the whole industry a bad reputation and makes consulting a scam rather than a honorable profession.

    As far as ethics goes, "Intentional negligence" that leads to harm is no different than "Intent to harm".

    Matt
  29. <Matt>
    ...the gas chambers of websphere?
    </Matt>

    As an (unwilling) WebSphere user myself, I am laughing my ass off at the gas chamber metaphor!

    Show me a developer who thinks WebSphere is developer friendly and I will show you a developer who hasn't used other app servers. Just the other day, I was condidering writing a Swing admin client that would talk to EJBs in my WebSphere server - only to find out this will *only* work if the client is running on IBM's JDK. What kind of crap is that!

    Ryan
  30. Try JMX.
  31. <Mark>Try JMX.</Mark>

    Not sure I follow you here. Try JMX for what?

    Ryan
  32. I believe he was talking about admin clients...

    Sandeep.
  33. Sandeep,

    Gotcha - JMX for the admin client. Actually, the client I am writing is not an "admin client" in the since it is adminstrating the server. It will be used to manage content/data. JMX would not solve my problem. But that is not the point...

    ...the point is if I want to access an EJB running in an instance of WAS 4.0, I have to use the IBM JDK on the client. I think that is ridiculous!

    But, since JMX is brought up - can you instrument WAS 4.0 with JMX? I assume the answer is no. What about 5.0?

    Ryan
  34. Don't you know IBM has Pluggable Java Client to alleviate this requirement? You can use it on Sun JDK as you wish, it will replace the JavaIDL with IBM ORB.

    It is a problem only if your Client code also replace JavaIDL with a different CORBA product.
  35. JMX[ Go to top ]

    WAS 4.0 can work with the tivoli jmx server. You can then instrument your applications with jmx. WAS 4.0 did not have any builtin JMX objects for config or admin. wscp provided this capability.

    WAS 5.0 includes very good JMX support. All WAS config can be specified using JMX, this is what the wsadmin utility does from the command line, it's bascially a BSF scripting JMX client. This replaces the wscp function. Operational aspects of the runtime can also be controlled using JMX. Performance monitoring (PMI) is also exported using JMX.

    Several JMX connectors are provided, RMI and HTTP.

    Applications in 5.0 can use JMX, register their own Mbeans with the runtime and can take advantage of JMX MBean routing in a cluster.

    So 5.0 fully supports JMX for both admin, operational and for instrumenting user applications. Combined with asynch beans, JMX listeners etc actually become usable in a server environment.

    Billy
    (WAS dev team)
  36. "Is it ethical to let companies just blindly walk into the gas chambers of websphere?"

    Matt:

    Some of us have families who were decimated in *real* gas chambers many years ago, and I don't appreciate you mentioning them here.

    If you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, at least stop using the gas chamber analogy out of consideration for me, personally.

    Thanks
    Guglielmo
  37. Deal with it Guglielmo.

    My dog was hit by a car. Does that mean that we should not mention cars?

    Quit whining.
  38. Good point, Race
    Intentionally letting dogs get run over by cars would also be a good analogy.

    <Disclaimer>
    BTW, for all the dog lovers out there, or those who know someone who owns a dog, his analogy is completely metaphorical and does not refer to any real dog living or dead....
    </Disclaimer>

    Matt
  39. Do people use the fact that your dog was hit by a car to promote their work?
  40. As a developer on Weblogic and Websphere platform, some answers I can give:

    Number 7: Can you incrementally update applications without bringing down the system?
    --Sure, WebSphere support hot deployment of Servlet/JSP long time ago. EJB hot deploy is introduced in 4.0. From our experience WAS is more stable/reliable than WLS in hot deployment of Servlet/JSP.

    Number 5: How long has the production version of your product supported the latest J2EE 1.3 standards?
    --WAS has 5.0 beta since last December, it has been in ISV beta testing for a long time. We hasn't decided to go WLS7 yet. Coz, J2EE 1.3 is attractive, but our customer may not be ready to upgrade to WLS7. And WLS6.1 already provides some J2EE 1.3 feature, why should we upgrade? We are not depending on CMP. So this kind of question is reasonable to developer, but definitely not to decision maker, they care what your product can bring them?

    Number 4: Can all your developers -- not just your developer "experts" -- build Web services on the same application server?
    --BEA promotes JWS, but it is not a standard yet. WAS does have good webservice support already. What's the point of this question? Can BEA provide JWS dev environment without expensive Weblogic WorkShop? Make it like Doclet, opensource, developer will embrace it. Learn from IBM, contribute WebService toolkit to the community.

    Number 1: Does IBM have an integrated environment comparable to BEA?
    --If talking about product integration, IBM definitely leads over BEA in any aspect. Does BEA integrate BEA MessageQ with Weblogic server seamlessly?
  41. Obviously BEA was ahead by 2 years but now IBM has caught up. So the question is: what is BEA doing to stay ahead (if not by 2 years, maybe at least 6-9 months)?
  42. A lot of people talk about the fact that BEA is quick at getting something out which works with the latest specs, and IBM is always lagging in that department.
    Although that is true, and it is fun to play with "the new stuff", in the real world I still see most large companies running WLS 4.5.1, WebSphere 3.5, or something like that.

    I would rather a vendor took a bit longer between versions, and gave us a really solid product. We can't be upgrading our enterprise systems every 6 months anyway.

    Maybe "Dev Releases" could be given to show us the new features, and let us get ready for those too.
  43. ...in the real world I still see most large companies >running WLS 4.5.1


    You're not in the real world if you see most large companies
    running WLS 4.5.1. That's just not the case.

    sammy
  44. Please ....

    Look at where Weblogic is in comparison to WebSphere.

    WebSphere developer 5.0 has been "out" for so long and the production version is nowhere in sight (last time I checked)

    I am managing the development of a product that needs a J2EE container to run on/in. My first choice was Weblogic ... because I had worked with it before and it was flexible & easy to do everything (administer, develop, deploy etc.).

    I did evaulate other J2EE servers, comparing price (overall) and ease of use. Our customers are NOT on the forefront of technology, so it has to be easy for them
    to work with the app server that we choose.

    I evaluated WebSphere and decided it would not do. Why ?

    Sure WebSphere was significantly cheaper than WebLogic. But IBM gets you with the unmentioned and hidden costs. If you don't have one of IBM's IDE's then you are royally screwed. It's such a pain in the ass to develop & deploy beans without these tools. Extremely time consuming. If you are not the kind of person/team/company to spend time to learn a technology/product so that you can figure out the best way to develop your apps, then IBM gets you with their consulting fees.

    This means extra cost to our customers since they have to buy the IBM IDE's. With a Weblogic server, they can use any IDE they want (Emacs, NetBeans, Notepad etc.) and with the use of our build tools (which use ant) they can have this system up and running easily. System mods are a piece of cake... no deployment nightmares.

    And then there is the fact that you have to use IBM's JVMs. They lag Weblogic here big time. Weblogic runs on any JVM, and they are achieving compatability with JDK 1.4/JVM 1.4 by December of this year. This is a significant step since I now get the benefits of using 1.4. Since we have a Swing client and use a degree of reflection in our framework, this gives us a huge boost in what we can do. (Swing and reflection are significantly improved in 1.4) Not to mention the speed boost that the new JVM gives you. I want to see how long IBM will take to get there ----> my prediction is late next year or early 2004.

    Raju
  45. Hi,

    My current company did a comparision between Weblogic and Websphere just over a year ago.

    Although I was not present during the comparision the main comment that came up was that BEA was able to get Weblogic Server download and working on a new workstation in less than 30 mins (including download time). IBM even with three technical consultants could not get a new server up and running during the meeting.

    From a ease of development perspective it was pretty damming.

    David
  46. I really hate seeing statments like these about how "3 people couldn't get websphere up and running...."

    If those 3 people couldn't get it up an running, those 3 people were probably idiots who could not follow instructions.

    I have NEVER had a problem with at least getting websphere up and running, and I did NOT attend training courses.


    Now, having said that. I TOTALLY agree that Weblogic is easier to get running than websphere. (In fact 3 idiots can easily get weblogic to run) But it's not that difficult to get websphere up and running. You will have to read about twice as much doc as you do with weblogic.

    Also, the weblogic samples are easier to use. And I belive the documentation is better organized, and easier to use.
  47. Well I am sorry if you hate seeing these comments but it did happen and I thought it was worth mentioning.

    Debating on if the people demostrating the product or the product was at fault is a good general point. However when all said and done it did not put Websphere in a good light.

    On a side note six months later when I had some free down time I installed Websphere successfully. I did find it harder to get up to speed with and develop with than either Weblogic or JBoss. An important decision factor when you are on a tight deadline with a mix bag of J2EE skilled developers/contractors.

    David
  48. I guess I am quite familar with the Configuration and Setup of some main stream application server like JBoss (2.4, 3.0) and Weblogic (5.1, 6.0, 6.1 and 7.0), they are easy and logical and the documentation is very helpful. But I am 'block' by Webspere 4.0 advance edition, the redbooks are nearly useless and I cannot get the application server start working and deploy hello world application even I work on the 'thing' for the whole day.
    Here I recommend if there is anyone who is going to eval. application server or learn J2EE, DONT CHOOSE WEBSPHERE, AGAIN DONT CHOOSE WEBSPHERE unless you get nothing to do.

    James, :-)
  49. I do agree with statement given by BEA.

    I have worked in both the servers. Especially BEA extensively. BEA is giving less dependecy to develop and deploy and execute a any J2EE projects.

    BEA weblogic is coming in the first place to implement the all new specification given by sun throughly.

    Documentation wise BEA is far far far ahead of any other app servers.

    IBM websphere is providing lot of tools to develop, deploy and execute a J2EE project. The dependency towards the server is high. So we are lossing the control on the coding assuming lot of things in mind.

    It is absoultley true that IBM webshpere is far lagging behind BEA Weblogic.
  50. IBM websphere is providing lot of tools to develop, deploy and execute a J2EE project. The dependency towards the server is high. So we are lossing the control on the coding assuming lot of things in mind.


    Nobody's forcing u to use tools. Ant works fine with WAS.

    IBM WAS is a solid product. It makes BEA run fast :)
  51. I would like BEA folks to rewrite the Java Petshop with the 1.3 J2EE specs and see how good it can par with .Not petshop.

    BEA can write the pet one version using just servlet and the other using EJB 2.0.

    I would hope BEA would take this challange.
  52. IBM has been slow overall - slow software, slow at innovation, slow support, slow specification adoption....
    and hence slow ROI.

    Unfortunately, proving this is not sufficient for BEA to surge ahead. They should prove to legacy main frame people wanting to convert to J2EE that WLS does a better job at DB2(IBM mainframe) based integration than Websphere.

    Also, with regard to developer tools, I would like to see BEA provide the plugins (free of course) for IDE's like JBuilder, IntelliJ, Eclipse, etc. I would like the option of using weblogic nicely integrated with IntelliJ(400$) or Eclipse(Free) than using the 4000$ JBuilder Weblogic Edition. Are we asking for too much? Also, BEA can support the Oracle initiative on JSR 198(proposal to come up with a standard API that is the same across all the different vendor IDEs).

    Personally, I have found that WLS is a much better option than Web Sphere. I think they have earned the leadership role in the J2EE market. They provide better options to developers by their quick specification adoption.
  53. We are using Websphere 4.03 in Linux and we found out that it runs 30% faster than Bea's weblogic from our in house test. We donot use EJB but make datasource connection to the Oracle 8i and MQ to OS 390. Our transaction per day is like large insurance company.


    I have to agree that both app servers are great but the Websphere App Server Studio 4.03 makes development and deployment a breeze. The webservice development is also every easy in WSAD.


    The clusturing and scalability of Websphere 4.03 is better from Weblogic 7.0 from what I have seen from our tests . I think the console is friendly and node manager is much easier to install and maintain in Websphere. In weblogic its a pain to make nodes and refresh on the console is slow.


    Websphere resource analysier is a killers app server monitor.
    It helps you see the heap size, request/res time, session objects and data source connection. I have not seen any tool like that.


    On the other side prepective of WSAD 4.03 is great for large team of developers from J2EE development to the people who are doing modeling. I think it is truely one of the Best IDE besides TogetherJ.


    On the question of JVM I think the IBK JVM is one of the best... read the book from Peter Hagar one of the guru's of JVM's from IBM. The garbage collection is most optimized in IBM's JVM if you donot beleive me run some test on it. I think that is why under presurre BEA has bought JRocket.

    Websphere 5.0 is coming out soon and think that is why BEA is scared shit. But to be honest both app servers are great and both have strength and weakness

    I am proud that in the Java world we so many quality vendors to choose from I feel sorry for the .Not people when the MS Dracula is sucking their blood constantly and keeps tells them that the security holes and memory leaks are features not bugs.
  54. Yeah, BEA is scared shit.

    I can't wait till I'm scared shit, all the way to the bank.
  55. Java Guy: "The clusturing and scalability of Websphere 4.03 is better from Weblogic 7.0 from what I have seen from our tests."

    WebSphere currently does not provide any clustering features. It has support for server farms (multiple independent servers that work in parallel but do not actually know about or talk to each other) using the option to write HTTP sessions to a JDBC data source, which allows a server to die without losing session information, however that option can cause serious performance problems unless you delay the session writes (which allows data to be lost) or put the session data on a database segment that is basically a RAM disk.

    FWIW WebLogic supports both server farming and server clustering.

    Having worked with both I can say: Yes, WebLogic is generally a year or so ahead on the specs and it does seem much easier to use (for development, anyway). However, if your company chooses to go with WebSphere, there are rarely any blocking problems that would prevent determined engineers from getting it working pretty well; it just might take a little longer to get used to.

    And they could both learn some ease of use features from some of their smaller competitors, such as Resin and Orion.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  56. Hi Cameron,

    The WS limitations that you say must be worked around by determined engineers may only add a "little bit longer" if you look at the activity in isolation. I think the sentiment of the whole community (except for the "out of the Blue" post by Java Guy) is that such limitations are chronic and are "metastasized" to the entire environment.

    Everyone has seen the graphs (ironically, many based on IBM research) showing the relative costs of fixing an error in design, development, test, and production. The costs go up geometrically the later the error is found. The same principal holds here. Certainly, a project can sidestep the limitations and be successful for a time, however since the WS tolerance for change is low, Murphy will soon produce a costly showstopper. As an example, look at the recent .Net v J2ee test where WS became unstable at high-transaction volumes. (this is also driving many companies from Websphere to WebLogic -like Dell and many others)

    Furthermore, if you look at the broader ISV support for WebLogic and the progress BEA is making in delivering Portal, Process management, Web services, security, and data aggregation capabilities that fully leverage the latest release of WLS, then it becomes obvious WHY the productivity gap exists and WHY it is getting larger.

    Matt
  57. From my understanding, websphere only lacks Stateful session cluster feature.
    That's from the following redbook:
    http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/pubs/pdfs/redbooks/sg246192.pdf

    Stateful session bean cluster is not that important, even in WLS it is not guaranteed to be 100% synchronized.
  58. Seen it all before[ Go to top ]

    No decision maker reads or understands this kind of tech stuff. The same story all over again. Remember Sybase and Oracle? Sybase being technically superior and cheaper to Oracle in every way. Where are they now? It is not the tech specs that make a product win. BEA should know that. Even completing the offering by teaming up with JBuilder won´t help them there, remember Sybase buying Powerbuilder to compete with Oracle´s suite? That did not help them either. BEA should focus on selling by success and future, not by tech! If they cannot make that point decision makers will go for the big names, even the ones with tech knowledge.
  59. What is going on here[ Go to top ]

    I am baffled by Floyd's statements on the serverside commitment to the Java community.

    Are they here for the java community or are they sleeping with the dark side.


    Here are few things that worries me about serverside goals.

    a. serverside and TMC publishes cooked up results showing .Not is faster than J2EE.

    b. Now they want to divide the community between WAS and WL.
  60. What is going on here[ Go to top ]

    Maybe later
    BEA Vs. JBoss?

    We are actively looking for a much cheaper solution over Weblogic, so we can gain more profit from our product.

    Webmethods points the right direction? Don't how BEA can prepare the 10 questions for JBoss?
  61. Just got this particular link from Borland to a organisation called CSIRO, one of the scientific research institutions, recently completed a comparison of six leading application servers and the results are as follows:

    --------------------------------------
    Performance and Scalability - Borland

    J2EE Support - Borland

    EJB Support - Borland and BEA

    J2EE Services - tight group of leaders including: Borland, BEA, Fujitsu, and IBM

    Development and Deployment - Borland and BEA

    System Management - BEA

    Scalability and Availability - IBM
    ----------------------------------------

    You can see the final entry(surprised??). So, they can answer one of the BEA's question on availability.

    Have a look at http://www.cmis.csiro.au/ADSaT/j2eev2.htm.

    Cheers
    Zulfi
  62. Has anyone here actually worked with the production WebSphere 5?
  63. I don't believe it has been released yet.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  64. They are planning to announce WS 5.0 soon, but only development and a single server versions. This is almost a year past the original estimate.
  65. My 2 cents on my one-day WAS5 experience...

    I downloaded WAS5 yesterday and have started to play a bit with it a bit. I have installed on Linux and Windows and got the thing up and running in no time. I must say that IBM seems to be going in the right direction with this one.

    They have a very open architecture with JMX as the base and supply lots of helpful utilities (based on Eclipse), for an example serverside remote debugging where you can set breakpoints in your JSP's and debug your JavaScript code (this is NOT using WSAD but using the included Application Server Toolkit).

    It seems like IBM finally grasped that some people really want to develop using open and defacto standards. They supply ant tasks for most administrative operations which will most likely kill the adminitrative/development process nightmare from 3.x and 4.x versions. I see a lot of nice things in the /lib directory of WAS5 (like Jakarta commons-logging).

    WAS5 also gets rid of the DB2 prereq as ALL configuration now is in well documented XML-files. The administrative console is a pretty nice webapp implemented using Struts. I have not used it for any heavy duty work yet but it seems like a huge step forward as well.

    And BTW, I have the Network Deployment version with support for clustering with really good management of the cluster (se the comment in another thread that only single-server editions will be released is wrong). As above I have just played around with it a little but this also seems like a huge step forward.

    It took IBM a while but it seems like they are finally starting to catch up and build products that are useable from several perspectives. Now I am just anxoius top see if it lives up to my expectations.

    One thing that I really DONT like is that they ship the product with IBM JDK1.3.1 although they now have their 1.4.x implementation available. It also a prereq to use the IBM JDK and the application client is still there which makes it a bit harder than it should be to deploy client applications.
  66. Why BEA have to lie to their customers to sell their product? do they even know how to install WebSphere products? why they say WebSphere products are not compatible to each other? I used WebSphere Portal Server, and other WebSphere products, and I know for sure that BEA is lying. I think BEA need to learn that criticizing competitor isn't the only way to survive. they can always just improve themselves.
  67. My experience with Weblogic:
    - Migrating from 4.5 to 6.0 was royal pain in the arse. 6.1 is much better and 7.0 looks great.

    - Top notch support

    - Top notch engineers

    - Probably the best EJB 2.0 container out there with notions of Field Groups, Read Only beans etc. (But there is still scope for improvement)

    - Documentation has evolved into something that I would rate as very good/excellent.

    - Good user groups. You will find answers to many technical questions/challenges already in there, usually straight from the horse's mouth, including people like Cameron Purdy(saw him in this earlier) and Rob Woollen (EJB architect of Weblogic)

    - Really shabby Accounting department, from what I hear. Got an invoice 5 months late and demanding payment right there and then. Pissed off a lot of management here.

    I am a tad disappointed that BEA has resorted to sniping at IBM. Too much of that going around lately, in my opinion. Sun- Microsoft, all that petstore bollocks, now BEA-IBM..

    I am probably not the best person to rate Websphere as a product. We tried to migrate our app to Websphere from WLS, but our time constraints were tight and in the end nothing happened. But I do remember that their documentation was all over the place and without their IDE, development and deployment was arse backwards. That was in WAS 4.0, I am not sure how much progress they have made in 5.0

    The overall feeling I get reading this discussion is that people prefer Weblogic to Websphere. I would concur to that assessment.
  68. The overall feeling I get reading this discussion is that people prefer Weblogic to Websphere.


    if you worked with both of them, you get roughly 70% of j2ee middleware job market. it's so nice, you don't have to work with 10 appservers to feel confident.
  69. Hello All,

    Technology does matter.

    If somebody says that my client does not use any latest technologies in J2EE and is happy with their current App Server.. I disagree, you have left them with no option to try new technologies. It will not work anyway unless they upgrade or buy new AS.

    There is a lot of difference b/w Class Loaders, Web Servers and Application Servers.

    I would say.. Its better to develop using a product that offers more features than one can use right away than get stuck with a product that only has bare features to complete the task in hand.

    If your client current apps can run on an AS,

    Here is a quick summary of WAS5:

    1. J2EE Specs (First version with J2EE1.3. Most AS have already started providing J2EE 1.4. Look at WLS/JBoss..)
    Local Interfaces are required in EJB world for better performance during inter-EJB calls.
    2. Hot Deployment (No Support. Every app need to be configured using a 3+ step (page) procedure. How much does this hamper quick debugging of apps during development?
    3. Integration with other IDEs (No Plugins available for JBuilder, Eclipse, etc. If you have these, do think)
    4. Data Source Configuration (Pretty difficult. Does anybody disagree??)
    5. Runs on IBM JDK where as other AS can run on any JDK

    WLS has a much better user friendly interface.. JBoss is free and is really cool. IBM still has to go a long way to being user and developer friendly.
  70. It's very frustrating reading thru the MIS-information about websphere.


    1) If you use WSAD (e.g. ibm's version of eclipse ) It is easier to develop/debug/deploy an enterpise application than with ANY OTHER TOOL/APPSERVER ( note I'm excluding JMS apps )


    2) If you DON'T use WSAD .... you're screwed ! Development with websphere using other tools suck !


    Also, I'm sick of hearing about Hot deployment... For an existing deployed app, you may hot deploy in a similar fashion, and with the same limitations as WebLogic.
  71. WLS is frustrating...![ Go to top ]

    We are using WLS 6.1 and everytime we get assurance from BEA for some fix for some issue. Till that time we come up with new issue and finally they recommend to go for 7.0. No wonder they are coming up with 8.x now.. What kind of advancement is this? Before incorporating everything from recent standards, let them fix earlier versions.

    Earlier versions of WAS were having few issues. But ver 4.0 is fantastic. So Websphere marketshare is 37% and Weblogic is 21%.
  72. It's a pity MS quit Java platform. They started very well with JVM, which was the fastest one for Java client apps.

    I wonder what would J2EE become if MS entered the market with ots own appserver. We'd have a lot of fun! Now there's a risk that enterprise application market will split evenly between .NET and J2EE. It's two stadards to learn and excel for consultants to remain competitive. Not good.
  73. Marketing hype - how can you trust any of this stuff from BEA or IBM - independent analysts and benchmarks. The "no hot-deployment" comment is wrong and the integration of WebSphere App Studio is phenomenal and it is a very solid development platform. JBuilder has a stronger visual designer but for much else it is more personal opinion than any radical feature set shortcomings.

    Ignore the hype is my motto.
  74. 3. Developer Productivity

    "BEA is the only vendor with a true end-to-end story that makes all developers successful. BEA offers the #1 integrated Java development environment on the market with JBuilder, WebLogic Edition, and has tight integration with other leading ..."

    Excuse me but JBuilder WebLogic Edition is JBuilder Enterprise with the support for the other application servers intentionally crippled. In other words this is marketing B.S. JBuilder is a good IDE but the Enterprise features are a cruel joke. It's no wonder they pretty much cut the legs of the non-enterprise versions because what JBuilder actually provides you was available in the $10 personal version. I found JBuilder Enterprise to be a sack of badly designed and buggy features on top of a nice code editor. Besides, Eclipse is the #1 IDE and it has true Ant integration.