Microsoft ordered to carry Java on Windows

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News: Microsoft ordered to carry Java on Windows

  1. Microsoft ordered to carry Java on Windows (96 messages)

    A U.S. court judge today ordered Microsoft to include Sun's version of Java with Windows, citing MS's history of undermining Java. "...unless a preliminary injunction is entered, Sun will have lost forever its right to compete, and the opportunity to prevail, in a market undistorted by its competitor's antitrust violations," ruled the presiding Judge.

    Read Microsoft ordered to carry Java.

    You can get the preliminary injunction paper here:
    http://www.mdd.uscourts.gov/Opinions152/Opinions/SunPI1202.pdf.

    Assuming that this doesn't get quashed during the appeals process, could this give client side java a new lease on life? Or is it really too late?

    More links to similar articles will be posted in this thread as the news unfolds.

    Threaded Messages (96)

  2. could this give client side java a new lease on life? Or is

    >> it really too late?

    Is it too late? I dont think so.

    I believe that client side applications are slowly regaining their popularity from web-based clients. Applications requiring a complex UI interaction that were previously implemented with heavy-weight usage of Javascript & DHTML have suffered from complexity, poor maintainability & fragility (not all browser support is equal).

    On the client side, the key strenghts of Java are:

    1) Distribution technology like JNLP. Java Webstart is a free implementation - there are numerous commercial ones. This is a BIG attraction for intranet applications. (All the benefits of Applets without the restrictions)

    2) Emerging client-side container technology - ie Eclipse MicroKernal - which can be used in SWT/JFace based applications (Eclipse) and for Swing applications (JLense). (Its very, very early days for JLense - but its the emerging Swing-powered port of the Eclipse Kernel).

    3) Preliminary (uncientific) performance evaluations put Swing and Winforms on close to a level peg (different benchmarks show wildly different results). At the very least, there is no "orders of magnitude" performance difference.

    4) Security. Whether the difference is perceived or real, the Applet and JNLP Sandbox technology is trusted, while Microsoft security is traditionally not. For intranet applications, this may be less of an issue, but for internet applications...

    5) Despite the performance problems of AWT, Swing provides a very good higher-level (MVC) framework that is missing from Winforms (and obviously MFC/VB)

    6) Its almost a no-brainer compared to MFC.

    Whatever your views on the Sun vs Microsoft issue, Microsoft bundling the JRE + Webstart would certainly open up some healthy competition on the desktop.
  3. SWING can never beat VB - for sure[ Go to top ]

    Whatever it is , applet and SWING is a peice of junk which sun came out with. You can never beat a VB client server application by anything else. The ease of development, the debugging facility .. forget abt it in swing/awt/applet. I was a VB programmer for 3 years and now java - for about 4 years now. I lovbe java , j2ee - all server side stuff. But client side java sucks ... Thats why IBM developed there own version of swing/awt and thats why Eclipse is faster than Forte.
  4. SWING can never beat VB - for sure[ Go to top ]

    Chinese RED OFFICE 2000 is written in java, It is portable on UNIX, LINUX, WINDOWS, and it has some markets. I admit that its startup time is a little slow, but after startup, it is almost the same speed as other office software.
  5. More opinion on the ruling from AP[ Go to top ]

    Here is another article that discusses the ruling.

    One interesting item is that Microsoft argued against the injunction claiming Java's popularity:

    "Microsoft attorneys countered that at least half the world's software developers already use Java, which was designed to run small applications independent of any particular operating system."
  6. I wonder how quickly this order will be implemented by microsoft. As a java developer it feels like a new breath of fresh air for client side java. I do not see how the java community could ask for anything more. If JDK 1.4 with webstart is bundled with each windows installation, here come hybrid apps.

    The company I work for is very eagerly looking at how to develop richer clients and still obtain the benefits of a web based appliction. The unavailability of java on the client has forced, I believe, the company to begin to assess the opportunitites for utilizing .net for these types of applications.

    With this ruling, and its implementation, there is now a much more compelling argument to be made for sticking with a java front-end along with the j2ee middle tier.

    If this ruling move through, some faith, at least my faith, is restored in the us legal system.

    Big win for Java, bigger win for choice, big win for customers.

    Long Live A Microsoft Alternative.
  7. Actually, it isn't too bad for Microsoft either. Now there won't be any question of including the .NET platform with Windows since they will be carrying the Java platform too.

    My guess is that they (Microsoft) would already have put .NET on a lot more client machines if they felt that it would not have affected the outcome of this particular lawsuit. (For those of you who don't follow the .NET market, one of the biggest developer concerns is the low penetration of the .NET runtime, which is the equivalent of the JVM. The .NET runtime is over 20MB to download, while .NET apps (like early Java apps) are often only a tiny fraction of that.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  8. Microsoft ordered to carry Java on Windows[ Go to top ]

    I don't know how well I've been following the .Net market but I do have "MS only" clients. I know they won't be switching to Java, so I am trying to get them to at least move to .Net. No sale. And they are only doing server side.

    In addition to what you suggest, Cameron, I am wondering how this will affect .Net on other platforms. Will MS loosen its grip (ie - sanction Mono), tighten it (ie - say Mono does violate copyrights) or outright provide usable implementations on other platforms?
  9. Microsoft ordered to carry Java on Windows[ Go to top ]

    Mark: "In addition to what you suggest, Cameron, I am wondering how this will affect .Net on other platforms. Will MS loosen its grip (ie - sanction Mono), tighten it (ie - say Mono does violate copyrights) or outright provide usable implementations on other platforms?"

    As far as OS support goes, I personally expect that Microsoft will eventually support a good chunk of .NET on Mac OSX, but it is just a guess. So far, they have only signalled support Windows (primarily 2K/XP, but to some extent it supports even Windows 98), and pared down support for WinCE somewhat similar to what Java does (jme, midp).

    There is also a project called Rotor that is as close to open source as Microsoft cares to get right now. Basically, it is an implementation of the CLI (the equiv of the JVM) on FreeBSD. It is licensed only for academic use, and it only supports a tiny fraction of what we consider to be ".NET". A lot of pro-.NET developers believe that it indicates that Microsoft is moving toward an open source model and that it shows that Microsoft will support the Mac (Mac OSX is FreeBSD underneath.) The first idea (open source) one should take with a grain of salt, primarily since Microsoft doesn't even ship the sources to the core C# libraries (e.g. the equiv of java.lang); in other words, there are things that Microsoft could easily ship with .NET to significantly help their own developer community, but they choose not to, so I can't see them embracing open source as anything more than a marketing effort. The second part (port to Mac) is quite conceivable, as (for legal reasons) it is convenient for Microsoft to have an OS competitor, they own a big chunk of Apple, they don't view Apple as a viable threat to their Windows revenue stream, and Microsoft is one of the leading software providers for the Mac anyway! I have no inside information that says they will support the Mac; I just think it could make good business sense for them to eventually provide limited (e.g. WinForms level) support to the Mac.

    Regarding Mono, I don't think there is a concensus at Microsoft on what to do. Some voices (Ballmer) are clearly anti-Mono and willing to pursue it in court. Other voices sound in favor of Mono as a marketing tool (to show how open the CLI and C# are), and are willing to tolerate it for the time being and pursue it later. Others (typically engineers) are excited about Mono because it validates their technology. I don't think companies are willing to bet on something (Mono) that Microsoft might choose to sue over, since they (Microsoft) can't sue the Gnu that means they'll sue the companies that use it. On the other hand, if Microsoft clearly signalled their willingness to allow Mono to survive, then companies might consider it, and judging by its performance, it's not going to be a threat to Microsoft for some time to come. (My preference would be to use things like the common type systems etc. as the basis for binary level interop b/w Java and the CLI as a first step towards a unified software model. But realistically speaking, that would take the involvement of Microsoft to be a success ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  10. For a developer,I don't think this makes any difference. It is simply a matter of downloading the JVM from the internet. I guess, PC makers can install the JVMs on the PC before shipping it out, the way they install other software. Why should MS bundle it with Windows.

    I also noticed that a lot of people are talking about Linux taking over on the desktop. Again, as a Java developer, I don't particulary care what the OS is. But I certainly don't want to see Linux on all desktops the way Windows does today. It would be nice to be able to choose from 4 or 5 good desktop operating systems.
    After all, Java's platform independence holds water only if there are a variety of platforms in existence on the desktop.
  11. Mono is not a GNU project. dotGNU is the one that GNU's doing. Mono is being done primarily by Ximian (Miguel de Icaza).
  12. It is a good sign, no doubt. If you are running Windows XP, one would know the pain of not having the (right) JVM. I am one of them. We just hope that MS will not throw another twist to the problem. Long Live Java!
  13. Unfortunately, this is Microsoft we are talking about.
    I do not know of any other company that has the expertise in sleight-of-hand that MS does . I do not think it would be prudent to depend on a MS JVM . The perceived victory here is that application vendors will not have to mass install JVM's on MS machines. These same vendors will become reliant on the compatibility of the final "output" of MS JVM's. Can a court "enforce" such a thing in a timely manner so Java developers are not wasting their time on compatibility issues while .NET developer's move ahead ?
  14. I'm glas their is some justice in the world after all. This will make for a very Merry Christmas for the people at Sun.

    Maybe developers won't be forced to use the imitation Java pushed by MS to create Desktop Applications afterall!
  15. The main problem is that Java is very slow on client with Rich GUI.

    The best alternative is Axis Server talking to VB on client via Pocket Soap.
    Else, PHB might see the Client side Java, and accelerate .NET conversion, even on the server.

    Java belongs on the Server.
    MS has won the client race for now, Linux is where it's at for the client growth(and maybe Linux runing C# clients (Mono) like the MS's C# port to BSD).

    my 2 c.
    .V
  16. Here we go again ...[ Go to top ]

    <Q>
    The main problem is that Java is very slow on client with Rich GUI.
    </Q>

    Compared to games written in C and Assembly, yeah.

    We are doing very complex Rich client Java. It is more than adequate. Is it perfect? No. But neither is VB. I've had my fair share of problems with it and VB have problems been much harder to troubleshoot/debug. I've done VB for years and I do know how to use it very well. I'm actually doing what what you suggest. Sorry, but Java client and server side beats the snot out of VB client and Java server side on many levels.

    Do Java on Windows today and you will be able to go to Linux clients in the future (or now, along with Mac, etc.). Do .Net today on Windows and you will get to re-write alot of code tomorrow to get it to run under Linux. (yes, "hello world" console apps will run in both places). As for C# and BSD - read the license. While you are at it, read JDJ's interview with MS on the subject of .Net on anything but Windows.
  17. Here we go again ...and again[ Go to top ]

    VB is anytime faster than swing / awt. Thats why IBM came out with there own swing for internal use and thats why Eclipse is faster than Forte.
    If u didnt understand Vb and how to program in it, I can pretty much guess how u must be programming in java. VB was the simplest and fastest client server programming language. Its still is ... No doubt about it ...
  18. Here we go again ...and again[ Go to top ]

    VB is anytime faster than swing / awt. Thats why IBM came out with there own swing for internal use and thats why Eclipse is faster than Forte.

    If u didnt understand Vb and how to program in it, I can pretty much guess how u must be programming in java. VB was the simplest and fastest client server programming language. Its still is ... No doubt about it ...

    total b/s. I programmed in VB for more than 4 years. My first Java/Swing app was faster than the previous version in VB (written by other group). I wouldn't say that VB is faster. Performance depends on the application and its programmers.

    Actually, VB is slower than Java. However, there are many bad programmers, they are very inventive in making Java/Swing slow.
  19. Here we go again ...and again[ Go to top ]

    i kno who is BS ing here... the very fact that u could nt understand VB shows ur capacity and knowledge. Regarding speed, by the time Vb app is up and running, Swing Drop down box desnt even get filled with values and refreshing of components in Swing is a pain in the A**. If u have to develop a client server app, never use SWING. Anyway ..
       I m a die hard JAVA programmer, but I will always understand and appreciate the power of VB. U got to sink into the thought that not everything microsoft is bad. Just accept something things and learn from them.
     
    Happy holidays to ALL !!
  20. Here we go again ...and again[ Go to top ]

    i kno who is BS ing here... the very fact that u could nt understand VB shows ur capacity and knowledge.


    well, I'm the second one accused by you of not understanding VB here :)

    you can't just say "VB is faster", unless you are 15 years old. VB forms MAY sometimes run faster than Java Swing frames indeed. It doesn't mean that VB is faster. Write XSL transformer in VB and in Java and compare. Yes, Swing is not the easiest part of Java, which makes your Swing forms slower than your VB forms. However, some people can write fast Java Swing apps. It's a Magic! :)
  21. Here we go again ...and again[ Go to top ]

    I think more than swing ur ego is talking here.
    And my point is not only VB is faster, the development time itself is very less. ITs takes 20% of the time waht a swing wapp will take. And thats how overall VB is a better tool for Client side programming. Re Read my posts and u will realize what i m saying.
       And regarding my age, I m mature enough than u to understand whats swing, whats VB and how both work, even with XML/XSL. Try MSXML parser and u would know whats simplicity and speed.
       I was consulting at IBM for last 2 years where i worked closely with Eclipse team before it was made open source. And I know exactly how SUN JAVA swing works. HOW SWING EATS MEMORY. How SUN tried their best to follow some patterns and still could not make it work better with memory. A Very simple example of that it use tools like Visual cafe, TogetherSoft, JBuilder .. almost all built using SWING and they SUCK in terms of memory and speed. And then try eclipse and u would know whats real java - client side programming is supposed to be.
       Last but not the least for me its just LOGIC and not MAGIC.
  22. Here we go again ...and again[ Go to top ]

    "And then try eclipse and u would know whats real java - client side programming is supposed to be."

    Eclipse starts faster than JBuilder, and aparently uses less memory. But memory leaks in (poorly implemented) plugins (I really hope they aren't from the IDE itself), probably caused by the SWT explicit memory disposing , make the used memory counter jump from 30 to 100Mb after some time, and forcing us to restart the IDE. And if we take the WebSphere Devel Studio, which is based on Eclipse, it becames even more evident.

    I agree that Sun should have designed swing simpler, with less fat academic design patterns, but it all being managed by the GC is a niiiiiiice feature.
  23. Here we go again ...and again[ Go to top ]

    And my point is not only VB is faster, the development time itself is very less. ITs takes 20% of the time waht a swing wapp will take. And thats how overall VB is a better tool for Client side programming.


    it's b/s, I'm sorry. I've done client-side programming in both VB and Java/Swing (and with other languages). VB is a pain in a**. It's suitable for an accountant writing for himself or his wife. It's easy to build small apps, stupid front-ends, true. However, in the enterprise environment it's a disaster. Primarily because of maintenance burden, and compatibility issues with DLLs. I've done projects in VB for a large enterprise, they were successfull. But I quit VB completely since then.

    Java is better for enterprise applications as well as for packaged applications. You won't find many packaged software items in VB. Guess why? If you know VB as well as you claim, you should make a correct guess.

    As for Eclipse, ... I like it. I'm considering to use in my next projects.
  24. Here we go again ...and again[ Go to top ]

    We never claim VB to be better for enterprize apps. Just for client server stuff. Please read the comments before talking. J2EE is best for Server side enterprize but client / server stuff VB is the best.
  25. Just thoughts[ Go to top ]

    Are you working for MS? I think everone should have same thoughts as me :)
  26. We are not there yet but we sure are getting there.

    Naysayers need to check out Eclipse and imagine delivering rich client GUI which is fast (and also platform independent) and effortlessly talks CORBA,RMI and SOAP.


    Cheers!
    manish
  27. "If u didnt understand Vb and how to program in it, I can pretty much guess how u must be programming in java. VB was the simplest and fastest client server programming language. Its still is ... No doubt about it ... "

    I don´t understand why VB is always metioned here. Does anybody here remember Delphi/C++ Builder (mainly VCL)? Delphi is faster, better, more stable, etc. It´s far more advanced than VB or anything MS (talking about IDE´s). Why don´t you guys talk about it?

    Of course, I'm not comparing it to Java. Delphi is great for client/side computing, and for client/server development. But it does not compare to Java when talking about distributed computing.
  28. VB "did" a great job in accommodating non-technical programmers. A lot of VB software projects were just "Screen" driven applications. You know, someone will draw a Windows interface on paper and hand it over to a VBer and presto.

    Delphi "is" doing a great job on making Windows software development pleasant for technical programmers. You can take a well design Object Oriented design with patterns and impalement it with Delphi. Also, Delphi does a great job with wrapping the Windows exception handler.

    The non-technical programmers usual Java arguments are "Java is too slow", "J2EE is too complicated" and "EJB doesn't work", well, simply J2EE requires a understanding of the specifications - It's for enterprise distributed applications, not "point and click, drag and drop" screens.

    Windows does a good job in presentation; J2EE does a good job in distributing logic, what's the problem?
  29. <wrong>The main problem is that Java is very slow on client with Rich GUI. </wrong>

    are you serious?
    i guess you have not seen any complex apps like together control center, or any java IDE. fairly complex apps.
    I wouldn't recommend VB even for prototyping... its horrible, where is the real language behind it? its m$ basic. maybe the .net version is better, i have not seen it.
  30. This is a big win for Java. Let's just hope it holds.

    <cameron>(For those of you who don't follow the .NET market, one of the biggest developer concerns is the low penetration of the .NET runtime, which is the equivalent of the JVM. The .NET runtime is over 20MB to download, while .NET apps (like early Java apps) are often only a tiny fraction of that.) </cameron>

    Cameron is right on this point as well. While they are priming their software with java they'll add the .NET runtime as well.

    At least now we will be able to compete on the desktop, we know we have won on theserverside.

    thanks

    Matt
    www.jmatt.com
  31. Java is very slow on client[ Go to top ]

    Our client side apps involve frequent use of Microsoft Office web components, and this has kept us away from any client side Java. User base is extremely fluent and comfortable with Excel based complex client side formulae and layout engines that we gave them thus far, and I do not see going away from it even when Java virtual machines stay on the client side.

    There is absolutely no pun intended in this statement: whenever I need to use TogetherJ, I need to first upgrade my CPU ;-)

    Client side is purely Microsoft, whether you ask them to include Java VM on XP/w2k clients or not, it will not affect their MS Office user community in my experience.

    On server side, die hard C++ developers will continue using VC++/ATL in favor of .net or J2doubleE purely from performance point of view, e.g. legacy integration, EAI.

    Client side Java folks are now going to be happy now that complex Java client apps like TogetherJ have proven that you have to throw hardware at it to make it run faster.

    My precious 2 cents to stop this unnecessary fight!

    /Ravi
  32. Java is very slow on client[ Go to top ]

    Agree that Together is slow. Have you tried JBuilder, or better yet, have you tried eclipse with swt - ui performance is snappy and user experience is very close to using a native windows app.

    Together should not be the standard bearer of speedy performance. They are the standard bearer for round trip uml modeling.
  33. Java is very slow on client[ Go to top ]

    On server side, die hard C++ developers will continue using VC++/ATL in favor of .net or J2doubleE purely from performance point of view, e.g. legacy integration, EAI.



    .net isn't faster than JVM :) It's as slow as JVM. If you want performance, forget .NET and do C/C++.

    As for TogetherJ, there's no TogetherJ in C# or VB.net. When they come, we'll see.
  34. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    Ravi: "Client side is purely Microsoft, whether you ask them to include Java VM on XP/w2k clients or not, it will not affect their MS Office user community in my experience. On server side, die hard C++ developers will continue using VC++/ATL in favor of .net or J2doubleE purely from performance point of view, e.g. legacy integration, EAI."

    So, what you are saying is that the client is completely owned by Microsoft and the server is completely owned by Microsoft. That is a very interesting objective view that you have.

    Had you stopped with the "client side", it would have been somewhat (not entirely, but somewhat) believable. After all, products such as Excel are pretty amazing for what you can do with them -- combined with ActiveX controls, scripting, external data sources, etc., you can do _almost_ anything with enough effort.

    Saying that "VC++/ATL" is the choice of "die hard C++ developers" just tells us that you are a "die hard VC++/ATL" developer, nothing more. And there's nothing wrong with being a diehard VC++/ATL developer, either. Different strokes for different folks. It's just not where most development is headed today.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  35. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    None of this will matter to us within 5 years, because all but very little software development will be done overseas. I've decided to look into a career change, and suggest everyone on this board consider the same at some point within the next 5 years.
  36. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    That's what was said 5 years ago ... The government still needs citizens to work on security and military projects so I wouldn't give up just yet !!
  37. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    "That's what was said 5 years ago ... "

    5 years ago, overseas companies were terrible and it wasn't feasible. They're coming around. Combine that with inate hate for I.T. from management dying to get rid of us, the horrible economy, and foreign countries "gearing up" to take on the work, and it spells disaster in my opinion. I love being a software developer, I love it. I hate to see this happen.

    When they took over textile and auto, those people just went out and found another job making roughly the same amount. Not so easy for us to do in I.T., it took $25G in student loans and years of development to get to my level, I can't just run down the road and do something else. No, it will be a lot harder to us to retool when all this work migrates overseas, which it will, believe me. HP, Sun, IBM, Bank of America, pretty much all of them (if your ead the paper) are laying off citizens as fast as they can and moving work overseas, I just read another article about it today. It's like an asymptotic curve.

    "The government still needs citizens to work on security and military projects so I wouldn't give up just yet !! "

    I just read an article where one of bush's advisors is outsourcing govt work to an overseas company and said he has "No problem doing it."

    RIP I.T.
  38. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    The developer in me worries about the economic shipping of jobs. However, the economist in me (I used to be one of those) knows that it's the Right Thing to do. Everyone keeps claiming that there is some sort of value that is destroyed by doing this. But that just isn't true.

    First, look at the money saved by a company like Oracle. By shipping off development, they have actually moved value from one place to another; shareholders through retained earnings, dividends (In this case Oracle doesn't pay divs) and equity, or more investment in new areas. On top of that, the product itself is now cheaper by cost to Oracle. That means they gain greater margins OR they can sell the product for less creating value for the customers.

    This cost differential between a place like India and the US for software development is almost always a LONG-TERM benefit to the overall health and value creation within the US economy. Protectionism almost never works, and only causes economic damage. Take, for example, the new deck on my house. I ordered it some time ago, and the original estimate was about $3000. Then, thanks to Pres. Bush's lovely tarriff's on lumber, I actually ended up paying more like $4,600 for my deck. That means simply that one constituency keeps their jobs through an artificial economy (lumber industry) while other constituents get ripped off (me, and other lumber consumers). It also means that purchases will drop on lumber, since it is an artificial, non-clearing pricing structure.

    Now, while the trend does make me somewhat nervous as a developer, it also probably isn't THAT dangerous to our software industry. As the prices equalize over time with India (or whoever), the layoffs will drop. It may even allow for a higher degree of specialization within the US software industry. Ford, GM, Chrysler are still employing lots of people in factories around the US, despite some of the price differentials apparent in the late 70's and 80's. In fact, in some ways, that particular economy has swung the other way now: Most foreign auto manufacturers have plants in the US now.

    Some of the perception surrounding this movement has been doubled up. With the combination of layoffs from the dot-com fall, and the recent trend to move development off-shore has made this seem far worse than it probably is.

    As for Bush's advisor, why should he have a problem with outsourcing? His job is to enhance his value chain. Companies make the decision to outsource _within_ the US all the time. Should they be forced to pay a higher price than they could get in international markets through protectionism?

    Again, it does bother me a little simply because I like to see our software industry do well, be strong and robust. However, in economic terms it makes good sense.

    Here is an excellent laymen's book that describes why protectionism sucks, and free trade is good. The Choice: A Fable of Free Trade and Protectionism Updated Edition, by Russell D. Roberts.

    Tracy, this migh be a good book for you to read.

    -Jason McKerr
    Northwest Alliance for Computational Science and Engineering
  39. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    First, look at the money saved by a company like Oracle.


    Oracle's an excellent example. Consider what happened to quality of their software, when they moved development overseas. I may guess that all their Java software made overseas, judging by its quality.

    My point is that it's not easy to move development overseas, because software development is NOT textile/manufacturing. Cheap labor is cheap for a reason.

    I'm for outsourcing. I just have seen how it works in reality, so I'm not that cheerful about it. Quality vs Cost, as usual.
  40. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    "Cheap labor is cheap for a reason. "

    Good point, but that hasn't seemed to have stopped most companies. And, the quality is coming up, esp. in places like Russia. You're right, those companies dumb enough to do business with develompent shops in places like malaysia, columbia etc. get what they deserve, but there ARE actually a lot of good shops in other starving countries like russia, bulgaria etc.

    Plus, I've seen situations where companies spend millions for software overseas that would have cost a 1/4 of that if they'd have hired citizens because the overseas company overcomplicates the software (when they often don't even know what they're doing to begin with) to make up for the low rate with billable time. SO where's the $ savings? But who's telling this to the people making those decisions in corporate America? Apparently no one. Again, all they see is $ on this months bottom line.
  41. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    Tracy,

    Cheap labor is not necessarily cheap for the reasons that you imply. I think you have a lot to learn about economics. Cheap labor in India or Russia is not cheaper because it's inferior. It's cheaper due to economic differentials like cost of living, tax basing, monetary changes between countries. This type of thing is easily seen within our own borders. Take the standard labor prices from Boston or New York and compare the same labor types by continuity with those in Texas or North Dakota. You'll certainly find Java programmers making more in Boston, but _without_ markedly higher standards of living.

    These things, more than the quality as you perceive it make the difference. You're lack of economic knowledge is showing. Mor importantly, your innate and understandable desire to protect your own industry within the US borders is showing, and I think it probably clouds your objectivity. Had I not been an economist before I was a developer, I would probably agree with you.

    -Jason McKerr
    Northwest Alliance for Computational Science and Engineering
  42. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    jason, "You're lack of economic knowledge is showing. "

    Jason, I have no idea what you're talking about, nothing you said disagrees with my original post; I think your blindness and inability to read the ENglish language is showing.

    I never said that all offshore software was inferior, and OBVIOUSLY they're cheaper because of differences in cost of living etc., but what I said was that my own experience with the software I've seen has been inferior.

    Please don't put words in my mouth, thanks.
  43. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    Bottom line: if a development team delivers high quality quickly and reliably, wages become secondary. Companies will invest good money just to keep teams in adjacent cubicles, and for good reason. Software is constructed by teams of humans, and teams that are dispersed across the planet will never be as effective as those who can hear each other breathing and farting.
  44. Oh, for goodness sake[ Go to top ]

    Polite Reminder: Topic of this thread is " Microsoft ordered to carry Java on Windows"

    Do we HAVE to revisit this tired issue again?

    There are a number of existing threads (some several hundred posts long) on this topic on this site.

    Regards,
    Nick Minutello
  45. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    "Now, while the trend does make me somewhat nervous as a developer, it also probably isn't THAT dangerous to our software industry. As the prices equalize over time with India (or whoever), the layoffs will drop. "

    Not true. What's happening is, as India gets higher, companies are moving their sites toward cheaper places like Russia, malaysia etc. That's all. The pricess will never be even close to what we charge here; we simply can't compete, no matter how good we are. Companies often get far inferior product in the end, but all they see in the beginning is $.
  46. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    The developer in me worries about the economic shipping

    >of jobs. However, the economist in me (I used to be one
    >of those) knows that it's the Right Thing to do.
    >Everyone keeps claiming that there is some sort of
    >value that is destroyed by doing this. But that just
    >isn't true.

    Saving money on the construction of products is pointless if there's no one left able to afford them.

    All work, except for things that must be done on-site (such as "sanitation engineer"), can be shipped overseas. The companies that ship these jobs overseas justify it with the dubious claim that they're "encouraging" the displaced workers to find better-paying jobs (there was a quote from someone at Bank of America in _Fortune_ to this effect). Problem is, what happens when all the clerical and engineering-type jobs have gone overseas. Management jobs will follow right behind them. Who's left to buy products when this happens? The money's gone overseas with the jobs.

    As for Bush's advisor, you're taking a very short-sighted view of what the problem is here. The public sector has different concerns than the private sector. By going for the procurement cost advantage, they are incurring a huge opportunity cost (which definitely outweighs the cost savings). Keep in mind that when the government spends money within the U.S., it doesn't lose all the money. It gets some back in the form of income tax receipts. If the money is transferred overseas, they lose the ability to tax it. Moreover, they're making a decision that directly affects the number of American workers that have jobs (which is supposed to be at the core of the government's mission...to provide for the security of its citizens). If those workers are unemployed, then they aren't generating income tax receipts (they're more likely to be drawing unemployment or welfare). Because of these concerns, the government has a moral obligation to award contracts within its borders whenever possible, even if the procurement cost is a bit more.
  47. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    "Saving money on the construction of products is pointless if there's no one left able to afford them. "

    Very good statement, and absolutely true. LIke I said in an earlier post, it may get to the point where the U.S. becomes a place for only wealthy and powerful people, and everyone else has to leave, much like so many people moved to TeXas and California "chasing" the jobs.
  48. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    5 years ago, overseas companies were terrible and it wasn't feasible. They're coming around. Combine that with inate hate for I.T. from management dying to get rid of us, the horrible economy, and foreign countries "gearing up" to take on the work, and it spells disaster in my opinion.


    As thousands foreign programmers come to US now, maybe you should consider moving overseas in 5 years :) There are many beautiful places on the Globe to live. Maybe it'll be your golden years somewhere in India or Russia, far from MS, DMCA and wild wild western capitalism. Seriously, why not?
  49. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    "As thousands foreign programmers come to US now, maybe you should consider moving overseas in 5 years :)"

    Actually, must like only mostly wealthy people live in places like Denver, BIllings etc., it may get to the point where only wealthy people can live here in the US and the rest of the world would be the work force. Who knows.

    " There are many beautiful places on the Globe to live. "

    Yes, but my family lives here.

    "Maybe it'll be your golden years somewhere in India"

    Lol, yeah I'd love to live in the desert or the middle of a bomb zone. SOrry, but I love TeXas.
  50. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    "Maybe it'll be your golden years somewhere in India"

    I love India, it's a beautiful country :

    http://64.124.76.23/BBSView.asp?SubID=usa-canada&MsgID=249092
  51. VC++???[ Go to top ]

    Dick,

    Ya, looks like a great place to live to me! lol
  52. Sarcasm ?[ Go to top ]

    Dick & Tracy,

    The sarcasm of your post is quite enjoyable. The link you've posted showed some of the slums in India.

    But if you think those are the places in India where software are being developed, then that shows the level of awarness you have on the topic.

    Why not browse some sites on Cities like Bangalore, Hyderabad and Madras ?

    Cheers,
    Elango
  53. Sarcasm ?[ Go to top ]

    Because I have better things to do, like wash my car in the rain, change my new guitar strings, mow the yard just the same as i did yesterday...
  54. Sarcasm ?[ Go to top ]

    That's interesting....., you had time to see the slums which many doesn't even heard of. But you don't want to know about Silicon Valleys of the East.

    Cheers,
    Elango
  55. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    Elango, Tracy, Dick,

    While the pros and cons of globalisation and the US immigration system may be interesting to some - I dont see the relevence to the article.

    -Nick
  56. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    <Q>
    While the pros and cons of globalisation and the US immigration system may be interesting to some - I dont see the relevence to the article.
    </Q>

    While it may be only interesting to some, it is important to all.

    The relevance may lie in that soon, the only ones using Windows will be the US (see all the articles all over the place conerning this) and due to "globalization", no one (but the wealthy) in the US will be able to afford Windows.
  57. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    Tracy, Dick, Nick & Mark,

    Please read this article in the New York Times.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/27/technology/27RUPE.html

    Cheers,
    Elango
  58. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    While it may be only interesting to some, it is

    >> important to all

    Sorry. I just dont see the relevence to the thread topic.
    The signal-to-noise ratios in most threads is getting to be unbearable. Whats more, on this particular subject, I just find most of the commantary to be a rehash of very US-centric paranoia - and I find it completely uninteresting.

    Cheers,
    Nick
  59. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    I find it unusually amusing (once I weed out the discussions which have nothing at all to do with the thread - start a new thread people!) that this debate has devolved (for the most part) into a client versus server argument.

    I see the same commercials you do. Intel claims > 80% of the server market. Now they aren't all running Linux, so there is a chunk of server side MS operating systems out there. I accept that for servers, the issue of installing the right JVM on the machine isn't such a big deal, but if you take the argument one step further....

    Large companies tend to have software distribution management systems. They also have extensively customized builds of operating systems. For them, the issue of using a different version of the JVM isn't really a stunning problem. They just get their build right, or use SMS (or similar) technologies to push it to existing machines.

    Smaller companies don't have these tools, but they are also smaller companies, where it's not a significant problem to install the right JVM.

    Lastly, we have the end consumer. Well, errrrrr, the average end consumer wouldn't understand most of the posts in this thread in any case. They couldn't care less. They use web-sites to buy things and research things....

    So, with that out of the way we are left with a target market of essentially corporate (small, medium, large, huge) end-users. In the vast majority of those cases, this is not a real issue.

    In other words, I am not sure this will make much of a difference in any case. Large companies choose technologies based on several things. Occaisonally, the "right technology for the job" is even considered. But the issue of having the software on the machines is rarely talked about.

    Maybe I'm missing the point, but I just don't see this changing very much.

    Chz

    Tony
  60. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    Tony,

    Yours is a balanced post depicting the reality. This injunction would have only a very marginal effect on MS and Windows.


    In fact, the market share of Solaris or any other flavor of Unix is being eaten away by Linux.


    Cheers,
    Elango
  61. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    <Q>
    , I just find most of the commantary to be a rehash of very US-centric paranoia - and I find it completely uninteresting
    </Q>

    I think it is much more than paranoia. Some of it is but not all. Again, you finding it unimportant doesn't mean it isn't important.

    <Q>
    I just dont see the relevence to the thread topic
    </Q>

    The relevance is that Windows is slowly becoming irrelevant. The US is the slowest to realize this. The way things are going, it won't matter soon what the US does (call it paranoia - I call it history repeating itself).
  62. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    The relevance is that Windows is slowly becoming

    >> irrelevant. The US is the slowest to realize this.

    Ok, I get you. Not sure I agree with you - but I understand what youre saying.

    There is a long way to go before a 90+% market share of the client desktop gets eaten away...

    Cheers,
    Nick
  63. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    Or did you mean: "The relevance is that *US* is slowly becoming irrelevant." ?

    -Nick
  64. IMHO, consumer should have choice of JVM installation, by means of URLs to SUN/IBM/BEA as a part of windows "dynamic updates" link or some such post-installation task.

    This way, if I donot want to use Sun's VM and use BEA's JRockit instead, I get to have a choice, although that may be the default choice as per the latest injunction.

    regards,
    /Ravi
  65. How do we get here again?[ Go to top ]

    </> Or did you mean: "The relevance is that *US* is slowly becoming irrelevant." ?
    </>

    Hasn't it always been ?

    aussie
  66. <nonsense>
    Java belongs on the Server
    </nonsense>

    Really ?? Have you looked at your cell phone applications lately ?

    Java based GUI has been stadily improving over the years. MS shenigans had impeded the progress of Java on Windows client side but hopefully , that is now a thing of the past. There are excellent Java GUI component vendors and this rulling will give them an incentive to produce better GUI components.


    Regards
    -manish
  67. Which JVM must they carry[ Go to top ]

    So whose Java implementation will they carry? Does the Judge say it must be Sun's implementation, or could they go to IBM or JRockit or another implementation?

    Are most people using the Sun JVM typically? I know I ran into bugs in the Sun JVM which made me use another for a while.

    Maybe MS will randomly include different vendor JVMs so that the JVM bugs will be sporadic and you still can't count on write once run everywhere working.

    Daniel
  68. Which JVM must they carry[ Go to top ]

    <daniel>Maybe MS will randomly include different vendor JVMs so that the JVM bugs will be sporadic and you still can't count on write once run everywhere working.</daniel>

    That would be humorously evil... :)

    The order from judge Motz says that he will "enter a preliminary injunction after conferring with counsel about its form", so apparently not all the details are closed yet. However, the wording in the injunction that Sun had previously requested said that Microsoft would have to carry "Sun's implementation of the JVM software, as delivered from Sun to Microsoft...." So ostensibly the choice of implementation would be up to Sun, and it would seem likely (to me, anyway) that they'd choose their own implementation.

    Randy
  69. Whose implementation of JVM would they have to carry. I hope it is not by Microsoft.
  70. Why don't you read the article?
  71. In my experences, VB is ease-to-use than java swing.
    There was some time that I used the swing, but I was not satisfied. It has some JRE problems. I like java arch. Even though, it is, I usually program with java, and I look up some java applications, especially with swing.
  72. How to kill the MS beast monopoly[ Go to top ]

    We use Redhat linux as our server OS and migrating all our desktops to redhat 8.0.

    We have benn very happy using linux desktop and server as we have no virus and security issues. Our app runs very stable and with zero down...no more blue screen of death.

    If every one of us starts using linux as desk top and server this MS beast monoply will be killed sooner.
  73. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    If companies like: Adobe, Macromedia, Real, don't need help from M$ in order to be leaders in their categories? Why $UN technology need that?

    If JAVA GUI is so good, why those same mentioned companies don't use it? Given their multi-platform req's that should be the obvious choice.

    I'd like to see .NET ported to Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, etc and M$ going to court to force the inclusion in those OSes.

    How about the undisputed leader in game consoles P$2! Why don't ask $ony to include Nintendo or XBox technology in their products?
  74. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    I'd like to see .NET ported to Solaris, AIX, HP-UX,

    >etc and M$ going to court to force the inclusion in
    >those OSes.

    Why? None of those have the market leverage to make a technology live or die on the decision to include them, and even if they did, there's still the matter of using anticompetitive means to achieve that position (the charge that Microsoft was convicted on). Microsoft has that with Windows. As soon as M$ dropped Java, the message from almost everyone was "client-side Java is dead".

    Microsoft's well-documented anti-competitive tactics (and the antitrust verdict against them) are what drove this decision. If they played fair, it wouldn't happen. If they start to play fair, it won't happen again.
  75. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    While your arguments are valid, you are missing the point.

    The point is that Microsoft's desktop/office dominance means that it can (and has) leverage this dominance to avoid competition.

    Note that the ruling doesnt foce people to USE Swing on the client - it merely forces Microsoft to ensure this CHOICE is available.

    Competition can only be a good thing no?

    I still think that Sun (and IBM, BEA and others!) need to do more to make the client-side JVM installation more "invisible".

    I also agree with Cameron - Microsoft should embrace this ruling with open arms - and bundle the CLR with windows.

    Regards,
    Nick
  76. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    100% agree with your opinions, what I still wonder is the fact that other technologies/products have widespread use in Windows without being distributed by Microsoft. Almost every Windows user uses Acrobat, ZIP, Macromedia, etc and as long anyone need those; it's just a matter of downloading or getting it from a friend or CD. I don't think that in order for a product or technology to prevail it’s necessary to have it bundled in the OS. If it's good, it will win by its merits.
  77. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    Almost every Windows user uses Acrobat, ZIP, Macromedia, etc and as long anyone need those; it's just a matter of downloading or getting it from a friend or CD.


    Those products don't threaten MS dominance in OS. MS doesn't compete with them, and consider a threat.
  78. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    I am surprised to see many of the people here discuss as if Judge ordered to include Java on windows acknowleding that it is like Flash, Acrobat and Sun needs a favour to compete with MS as .NET rolls out.

    The answer is NO.
    1. Flash and Acrbat Source and Specification was not licensed by MS and they don't have their own versions of it.

    2. Java is a prgramming language and as a company MS licensed it from Sun. But as per the license agreement it is supposed to maintain the Java specification. But it is proved in court that it DELIBRATELY mis-oriented Java there by confusing most Java developers on the windows side taking advantage of dominance in desktop.

    3. Please go ahead and read the judgement from http://www.sun.com/lawsuit/sun_v_microsoft_opinion.pdf before making any conclusions.

    4. Why can't Java win on desktop on itself? This is not a valid question as with 28K modem the end users [Please developers think about users at last :)] does not care to download the latest JVM for hours. Moreover MS was shipping 1.1 [1996 version] where as developers who wants to take care of the latest API changes are not able to use them. Since most of the desktops run on windows, developers on the client side stalled at 1.1. People who didn't care about MS 1.1 failed on the client side.
  79. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    Pragmatically, there is little difference between Java, Acrobat, and Flash here, IMO. You miss the point that Java is also a *runtime engine*, as is Flash and Acrobat. Flash and Acrobat have languages and tools, just like Java. The language is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Because Windows doesn't ship with a modern JDK, will that be a barrier to rolling out Java on the desktop? No. The barrier is distribution of the JRE (among other challenges - such as the FUD).

    Likewise, there are 'languages' or tools to develop client side content that execute in their own runtime (Acrobat and Flash). Windows doesn't ship with those languages or tools, either.

    The 28K argument is a laugh. You need to build a solution to fit user and technical requirements. If you are considering Swing for users bound to 28Kbps, you should consider a new line of work :-). For those that have intranet users and broadband/VPN users, rich clients can be a real, viable option. Me - I like the rich client. I am sick of the square peg/round hole approach of building applications in a stateless browser page environment. A well built rich client offers the user a much better experience.

    To me, the judgement is more valuable politically than anything else. I have my doubts as to the realizable impact of this. MS will undoubtedly appeal. Beyond that, when would it need to be implemented? In the follow on to XP, in a Svc Pack to XP? How long from now will that be? And how will upgrades of JREs work? Through Windows Update? Yikes. Lots of unanswered questions, huh. I am sure MS will do their best to stall and be a barrier.

    In the meantime (and probably after), we'll just provide our users a link to the JRE installer and use Web Start to control the JRE version for apps. Lack of modern Java runtime in Windows distribution has negligible effect on my decision to build a rich client vs browser client - except in the Internet user case of course.

    Mike
  80. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    In the meantime (and probably after), we'll just provide our users a link to the JRE installer and use Web Start to control the JRE version for apps. Lack of modern Java runtime in Windows distribution has negligible effect on my decision to build a rich client vs browser client - except in the Internet user case of course.


    You could tell this all when MS said it won't distribute JVM with XP. Technical people understand that it's all fine, but non-tech folks were worried. It was waste of time to try to explain them that the impact is negligible. So, this decision negates MS's attack. Both news belong to "business" category, not "technology".

    On the other hand, it's nice to know that every XP box has the same JVM. We'll take advantage of it. It all depends on how this is implemented. Anyway, you can't argue that this is good for Java.
  81. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    1, 2 -- that's why Sun sued them before and got them to stop distributing Java. They do have their own version, which they should probably just have removed to avoid confusion. I'm never sure when something uses Java applets which JRE it wants, but at least I know I can enable/disable the Java plugin. I'm not sure most users know this. At the same time, at the time of the lawsuit the only area where they did not comply was with JNI, I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong), which isn't a big deal for applets anyway. They had a separate download for RMI, which was the other area, so they came into compliance on that. Obviously, they should have just complied with the whole spec, like they were supposed to, but I think the main confusion has been, not over differences in the 1.1.x JREs, but in the fact that there has been nothing later than that installed with Windows.

    4 -- I think the point was that there are lots of big apps that people download all the time, if they find a need for them. Acrobat isn't small, but people download it all the time. Sun needs to try harder to get the JRE out there, to make it something that people feel they need to have. This really only applies to non-business users, which is why I mentioned putting it on AOL CDs in another post. Until people feel they need it, and everyone has it, I don't see anything really changing.

    Mark
  82. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    I hate following up my own posts, but just to clarify (I shouldn't write too late at night...)

    1) Microsoft should have not distributed their JRE with XP. That would have cut down on the confusion. Obviously, until they lost the original Sun lawsuit, they could distribute whatever they wanted to, although contractually it should have been compliant with the Sun spec.

    2) The main confusion over JREs is probably more a result of Sun than anything Microsoft has done. Other than JNI, the Microsoft JRE supported everything it was supposed to. Once Sun sued them, it was Sun's responsibility to get newer JREs out to people. They haven't, and they have no excuse for not doing this.

    Mark
  83. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    MS doesn't have any products/tools that compete with those products. They probably don't see the need. Yet.

    <Q>
    If it's good, it will win by its merits
    </Q>

    Many good and best-in-class tools/products/platforms are buried in the technological graveyard while the not-so-good ones are still in existence.
  84. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    Yes, there's the M$ Reader competing with Adobe, at least trying. I'd like to insist on that: How about asking Palm to include on every Palm's handheld a portion of any third party software? That's ridiculous!
    The question here is: Java GUI was trying to solve a problem already solved many years ago by WIN32, but with much less quality. That's why $UN needs help from court.
  85. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    The question here is: Java GUI was trying to solve a problem already solved many years ago by WIN32, but with much less quality. That's why $UN needs help from court.


    I see your point: Win32 solved a problem of portability many years ago. Replace everything with windows - there won't be a problem of portability.

    Re: Palm. Palm wasn't convicted in illegal practices unlike MS. Is it fair to put people in cages? No. In genereal, it's not. Why then we have jails?
  86. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    WIN32 addressed the need to create great GUI applications on Windows. JAVA tried to solve that same problem on every single platform in existence, today and tomorrow. That's doesn't sound choice to me either. If JAVA were a better choice to write GUI applications than WIN32, than it could have success, but since it isn't, than the only viable way is court.
    Hopefully IBM understood that and choose a better way to built Eclipse developing it’s own GUI API.
    I'm not questioning the fact that M$ acted illegally, sure M$ is guilt since it broke a contract, but try to convince that any company MUST help other to succeed in detriment of their own success, that's unacceptable.
  87. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    but try to convince that any company MUST help other to

    >> succeed in detriment of their own success, that's
    >> unacceptable.

    Like I said in my previous post:
    The ruling doesnt force Microsoft or anyone to write java applications for the client side.
    If Client-side Java is as crap as you say, then what possible difference will this ruling make? People will exercise their free choice and write it in something other than Java.
    THAT is precisely what the judge intended.

    What we DONT want to happen is the situation I described that we are facing. We are having to consider alternatives to Applets PURELY because we cant be assured of a client-side JRE.

    -Nick
  88. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    <quote>JAVA tried to solve that same problem on every single platform in existence, today and tomorrow.</quote>

    Let's be realistic. I don't think anyone (even Sun) ever expected that Java GUI would *perform* better than native applications on every platform. Of course there is some tradeoff of performance for portability. No free lunches.
    Early implementations had their issues, but things are getting much better, a la SWT and to a lesser extent, Swing in 1.4.

    <quote>That's doesn't sound choice to me either. If JAVA were a better choice to write GUI applications than WIN32, than it could have success, but since it isn't..blah..blah..blah..</quote>

    What do you base this statement on? Surely, it depends on several constraints. For example, if you wish to leverage your investment in a server architecture based on J2EE, are you going to build rich clients for it in Win32? Probably not (unless SOAP is inserted in between maybe). Unless you are talking about Shareware applications, the decision is not so obvious.
  89. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    I haven't written a sngle piece of Win32/MFC code in years.

    I also think that Win32/MFC is better than Swing only in terms of raw performance. Otherwise, Swing is a better designed framework, which is fun to write in comparing to MS $hit.
  90. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    <argyn>I haven't written a sngle piece of Win32/MFC code in years.</argyn>

    I can't remember the last time I heard of ANYBODY building corporate/IS apps (not products) in MFC. "4GL" IDEs (PB, Delphi, VB -gasp) and Java are far more productive (and safe)languages/environments to deal with the 'dynamic' nature (read: forever changing) of requirements of a typical project in IS-land.

    <argyn>I also think that Win32/MFC is better than Swing only in terms of raw performance. Otherwise, Swing is a better designed framework, which is fun to write in comparing to MS $hit.</argyn>

    No doubt. Hammer and chisel.
  91. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    Yes, there's the M$ Reader competing with Adobe

    And imagine that Microsoft got serious about competing with Adobe, distributed a free Reader that with the OS that read PDF files as well as a new Microsoft format - also freely produced by all of its Office Suite.
    Would Acrobat last long?
    Ask Netscape.
    Ask Real Media.

    >> How about asking Palm ...
    Forget about Palm!
    The issue is that Microsoft controls 90% of the desktop market. The issue is that Microsoft unfairly leverages this near-monopoly situation to stifle competition.

    The reason for this ruling (if it survives) is that Microsoft have been found to endulge in anti-competative practices. Its not to give Swing a leg-up - no-one is forcing anyone to write Swing applications.

    I can tell you that we are having to consider alternatives to Applets for internet applications PURELY because we cant be assured that there will be a JRE on the client machine. I am sure that countless other organisations are having to do this too. If that is not an impact of anti-competative behaviour, then I dont know what is.

    Having said that, JRE vendors should be doing more to make JRE installation invisible to the user - as is Flash etc.
    Now, the difficulty here is:
    a) The JRE is just a little bit more complex than flash
    b) It requires Microsoft's co-operation.

    The ruling, if anything, should ensure microsoft's cooperation.

    -Nick
  92. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    I'm still not sure how much this will help with the uptake of more advanced applets or client applications on Windows-based machines. It seems that Sun could have been doing much more to get Java out onto clients than the lawsuit route.

    After all, this doesn't affect the millions of users that aren't running Windows XP, and it doesn't force anyone to install new releases of Java, service packs, etc. From the article, it seems like it only affects anyone that has the .NET runtime (the article notes that Java will have to be distributed where the .NET runtime is distributed). So, it still isn't possible to assume that everyone will be running a new version of the JRE.

    My question is: why doesn't Sun do something concrete about it that will actually get the JRE on people's machines? Work with AOL and get the newest JRE onto the CDs AOL distributes? Talk to Dell and IBM and get them to install it on the desktop? These seem like the kinds of things that would actually work, and probably be a lot cheaper than suing Microsoft. After all, it is Sun's responsibility, along with its partners, to get Java onto people's machines.

    Mark
  93. Few Q's[ Go to top ]

    </paste>
     MS doesn't have any products/tools that compete with those products. They probably don't see the need. Yet.

    <Q>
    If it's good, it will win by its merits
    </Q>

    Good Technology, has little to do wth market share theses days
    its all about marketing, seems to be the bigger the marketing
    budget the more you sell.

    on the PC for example CPM was technically superior to DOS
    but IBM had the biggest budget
  94. Client-side == Microsoft?[ Go to top ]

    Not all client software was meant to run on Windows OSes. I worked on a Swing client that was used by people who schedule pilots. It was a rather complex GUI as you can imagine. Because it was written in Swing, we were able to move them from expensive Sun workstations, to free(?) JavaStations (a promotional effort by Sun) to Windows NT with almost no code changes. The clients were spread out around the world. Thinking about handheld devices, cell phones, - not every java client is meant for a Windows box. So, I don't see how Microsoft can single-handedly dictate whether client-side java lives or dies.

    -Scott
  95. Microsoft To Appeal Sun Injunction[ Go to top ]

    As expected, Microsoft is planning to appeal the injunction
  96. It's high time Sun come with an Cost Effective alternative to Windows with Linux/Solaris either on their Sparc hardware.

    That would be a clean solution rather than trying to piggyback on Windows or litigating with MS.

    Cheers,
    Elango
  97. Here is food for thought. This is a What-if. Lets say Linux gets 50%+ of the client side market in the next 5 years. Do you think Microsoft could then force the Linux to ship the CLR.

    Even more scary is the thought that on the server side Microsoft is not the dominating force(Netcraft puts IIS at only 28%). Shouldn't al these other server carry the CLR. Just a thought .... BUT something that will not happen since Microsoft is the bully in the story.

    Here is another good question. Most of you are Americans and this ruling was made in the USA. Does this mean that Microsoft have to ship the JVM with XP for the rest of the world? Anyone got figures for number of desktop pc running Microsoft outside of the USA? Another question is how this will older Windows products. Is the injunction only for XP or does it mean it now has to be part of all the Service packs as well? Go check out the amount of PC's still running older versions of Windows. Most corporates only upgrade the OS every 3-4 years and they have only been running 2000 for about 2 year now. Not even speaking about the ppl at home who can't afford the new XP license costs. I'm still running Windows 98 at home. :) (dual boot with linux 7.3) Put this all together and you have to wonder is this is actually enought to level the playing field.