Discussions

News: TheServerSide Calls for Real World J2EE Project Stories

  1. Experience is often the best teacher, yet there is hardly any thing written about real world projects: the decisions they made, the outcomes, the architectures used. TheServerSide would like to begin publishing stories about real J2EE projects, and needs your help. Tell us the best and the worst about a project you've been on, and we'll consider featuring you and your story here, giving others a unique chance to learn from your experience.

    If we select your story, TheServerSide will assign a writer who will gather research from you/your team and write-up an article about your project. While all stories will be considered, we especially are interested in stories that have interesting points such as:

    - Do you have a large-scale deployment, involving lots of servers?
    - Do you have a mission-critical system doing complex transactions?
    - What's unique or interesting about your application's design?
    - Does your experience with your product match what your vendor is claiming?
    - Did you switch from one application server to another? If so, why?
    - How well did your application server integrate with the rest of your environment (applications, platforms, etc)?

    We can keep the people and companies anonymous, or give you and your company full credit so that your IT department to gain some recognition in the industry for doing cutting-edge work. The aim here is to bring real world experiences to light, benefiting all others who read your story so that they can save time in their work.

    If you have cool stories, feel free to discuss them here, but make sure
    you submit them to editor at theserverside dot com.

    Sincerely,

    TheServerSide Team

    Threaded Messages (120)

  2. This is a great idea. I would like to see as many of these as possible.
  3. I am afraid this is going to be a very short list..

    "People with such attitude and language can never be right"


    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  4. ==> "People with such attitude and language can never be right"

    What do you mean with this statement ?

    Oliver.Lauer@sk-koeln.de
  5. To start making the list longer than you expect...

    I represent the development unit of the largest public retail bank in Germany.

    We are using a J2EE application with a JCA connection to CICS/DB, ORACLE, EJB, Webservices, STRUTS, FOP etc. etc. for 4000 users....since more than 2 years now...and the application(s) is/are becomming larger and larger...and we are happy with it/them...

    And we are only a small bank in a small country...I guess they are even using J2EE in Afghanistan now :-))

    Oliver.Lauer@sk-koeln.de
  6. "People with such attitude and language can never be right"


    People with such poor english skills use .Net. It shows because they cannot think for themselves.
  7. >
    People with such poor english skills use .Net. It shows because they cannot think for themselves.

    I BELIEVE in CUSTOM CODE also, but I am not sure where or how to start with server side programming. Part of limitations about about what my host's support. I MIGHT BE BEST OFF WITH THE MOST SECURE LANGUAGE. HOWEVER, I LOOK FOR THE MOST FRIENDLY BOOKS. PHP seemed the best, but my guess is I need C++, but I think both JAVA and C++ are ugly.

    I want to take the major government data sets and when person have a complaint their complaint may link to the data set and then a case sort and priority system might be made from the data sets and the inputs. There would be a ranking systems and linking and/or cross referencing system. This is just a dream. Then I would hope to partly finance this with advertising that consists of discount coupons from some businesses with the hope of energy saving and local stopping and supporting some local business, especially for gardening and other types of business that are most useful for knowing the local soil and weather conditions.
  8. "I am afraid this is going to be a very short list.. "

    Rolf,
    If you are so pessimistic about J2EE why do you keep visiting this site?
  9. For entertainment

    "People with such attitude and language can never be right"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  10. Not to turn this into a .net vs Java or some other technology thread but I am very curious as to the success stories of J2EE. I worked for an organization that used J2EE that almost failed, thans to more funding the project pulled through.I was not priviy to all the reasons why but I know it looked bad for a while. I believe in using whatever works to get the job done and if it takes .Net or J2EE so be it. I have been reading this thread intently and I am suprised to see that no one as of yet has said anything significant.
    J2EE is complex and I am sure there are some lessons learned out there. I am anxious to learn from these projects.


    GR
  11. GR,
    The reason you do not see many J2EE stories posted on this site yet is that people now realize that these stories would be made really good use of by authors like Ed Roman, Floyd etc to come up with their next book on J2EE.

    These authors are looking for brand new topics to write books on and naive people like you and me fall trap into.
  12. My compliments for a most original and innovative excuse!

    So more reason for kudos to you as it’s difficult to stand out in a crowd that already is so good in squirming excuses..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  13. Rolf,
      In the words of Nancy Reagan, you have to just say no!
  14. "These authors are looking for brand new topics to write books on and naive people like you and me fall trap into. "

      You are so, so, so wrong on that count...
  15. Also,

    People are not able to post success stories up because of issues with their legal departments. Some of the technologies companies make investments into are considered competitive advantages. Why would they brag about how they did something... Their competition may pick up on the idea.

    Greg
  16. We're using J2EE on an extremely large project at my company. The project spans 4 years and will total about $50 million. Release 1 ($10MM) was rocky, but mostly due to a brand new infrastructure. Release 2 ($13MM) is on schedule and will be released in March with no major issues. Release 3 (~$18MM) is in elaboration now and due for 10/03.

    The application is for the banks to collaborate on resolving disputed credit card transactions and is a high-availability, high-volume web based application. It also has a major B2B piece, including some plans for some Web Service like interfaces.

    Best story is that it is the first application on our new platform, with more of these projects coming after it. And yes, Microsoft came in with their .Net pitch and we turned them down mainly due to the immaturity of the platform.

    So if anyone is telling you that J2EE is not being widely used or used without success, I can assure you that it is!

    - joe
  17. "We're using J2EE... the project spans 4 years.. totals about $50 million. Release 1 ($10MM) was rocky ... Release 2 ($13MM) is on schedule and will be released in March with no major issues. Release 3 (~$18MM) .. due for 10/03.
    ...
    So if anyone is telling you that J2EE is not being widely used or used without success, I can assure you that it is!
    "

    Are you kidding? sounds like you are using j2ee without any success at all.. how can you say a 4 year 50 million dollar project is good? who ever proposed such a monstrositiy should be fired and whom ever agreed to fund this disaster should be fired..

    Costing lots of cash, and taking lots of time does not make a good project. In fact it is often the metric to gauge project failure...your project is a failure. And i can promise you it was not because of j2ee, but your lack of experience, your teams over confidence, lack of direction and general incompetence.

    It is always a people problem, and from the sound of things, you have a really big problem.
  18. Mr. A. Anonymous -
    Since you know nothing about the scope of the project, I would suggest that your criticisms are less than helpful. There are certainly long-term projects out there that involve massive budgets and long timelines. Especially if the projects involve working with legacy systems and their migration to new environments, other companies in a coordinated effort, re-engineering of a company's entire information architecture, moving massive amounts of data, building data warehouses and the systems that access and process the data, among a host of other items. Or maybe a combination (often it is) of the above. Projects will often deploy in stages, as it sounds here. And quite frankly, for major enterprise scale projects over a 4 year time scale, $50 million is pretty cheap.

    Since you aren't in any position to judge the quality of the project or the competence of the people working on it or the people who funded and proposed it, try coming up with a statement that shows those who read this thread some sense of your own experience and skills.

    Cheers
    Ray
  19. "..re-engineering of a company's entire information architecture.."

    Sorry this is not what Joe is doing, not what most companies do... in fact most companies don't have an information architecture to re-engineer. The truth is, business is done by departments, small systems, sometimes integrating with larger mainframes. If you speaking of replacing a mainframe, then I will again question your competence, doing so will wastes resources better spent providing real functionality rather then replacing a perfectly working and supportable environment with a new expensive buggy one.

     Your reference to "data whorehouses" is also very suspect, as data base management is distinct from new application development, J2EE has very little to say on this topic.


    "And quite frankly, for major enterprise scale projects over a 4 year time scale, $50 million is pretty cheap."

    And people wonder why India does so well in the software industry.
  20. Anonymous -

    I do appreciate your insightful and eloquent comments.

    Cheers
    Ray
  21. Are you kidding? sounds like you are using j2ee without any success at all.. how can you say a 4 year 50 million dollar project is good? who ever proposed such a monstrositiy should be fired and whom ever agreed to fund this disaster should be fired..


    There's a point in your comment. I'd like TSS select the projects based on not only their cost. I know size matters :) but as the above comment points out, size sometimes may be misleading.

    We may give an impression that J2EE is suitable only for large projects in large companies. It's not right. There are pretty nice small one-guy projects with Servlets, XML etc. These could demonstrate success of J2EE even better than multi-million ripp-offs.
  22. Are you kidding? sounds like you are using j2ee without any success at all.. how can you say a 4 year 50 million dollar project is good? who ever proposed such a monstrositiy should be fired and whom ever agreed to fund this disaster should be fired..

    Costing lots of cash, and taking lots of time does not make a good project. In fact it is often the metric to gauge project failure...your project is a failure. And i can promise you it was not because of j2ee, but your lack of experience, your teams over confidence, lack of direction and general incompetence.

    It is always a people problem, and from the sound of things, you have a really big problem.

    To add with this, proper modeling in the Analysis and Design phase is also important. We tend to skip the step of coming up with proper object model and then map that model to EJB's. Common mistake is to come with EJB model arbitrarily and start coding...
  23. Rolf: "I am afraid this is going to be a very short list.."

    Such arrogance, Rolf. Just because your J++ project was an abject failure does not mean that everyone else fails. Our company has easily been involved with over 100 different J2EE projects (although rarely from start to finish), and I'd estimate well over a 90% success rate for the projects we've seen.

    One of them, that I just saw last week, is used in the financial services industry for some very large mutual funds and trusts (over 1000 users for an internal app). Their most complex page is generated on the fly (custom to each analyst) and collects potentially hundreds of rows of data and many columns. It displays complex data from many SQL tables (and other services, like pricing). The entire request averages under 20ms. They consider that to be quite a success ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  24. On a tangential note...

    Sometimes, when you step back and think about it, a lot of the FUD floating around about J2EE-based systems NOT scaling or performing AT ALL seems pretty silly.

    A lot of business applications are targeted for internal usage within organizations (commercial or otherwise)Financial and HR systems, sales force automation, intranets... that sort of stuff.

    Scalability requirements for such applications do not usually call for tens of thousands of transactions per minutes. From my experience, even large companies with globally deployed sytems don't have more than a few thousand people EVER hitting the system simultaneously. Most well-engineered J2EE systems based off of good RDBMSs and decent hardware (not extravagant, just decent) configurations will do well enough.

    Developer productivity, application maintainability and the ability of the development platform to provide the developers with infrastructural plumbing (without having to reinvent the wheel yadda yadda) become much more significant issues then.

    Sandeep
  25. People with such attitude


    Rolf, Don't you have something more useful to do than posting you'r negative comments about everything ?
  26. Maris,

    Negative comments? From me? Have you not read my previous post?

    It is not I who should apologize, but the Java/Unix/Oracle crowd, "..casting their technical preferences in quasi-religious terms that encourage hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. .."

    Remember?


    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  27. Rolf,

    Have u ever attended a therapy course on curing hallucination of mind?
  28. surajeet,

    "Have u ever attended a therapy course on curing hallucination of mind?"

    No, but that have been suggested to me a number of times in this forum!

    "People with such attitude and language can never be right"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  29. Please stop agitating the guy.

    You have to be aware that winter days Scandinavia enjoy only few hours of daylight, and even then it can be foggy. It kills serotonin levels. (@Rolf - IKEA has suitable halogen bulbs.)


    Please give me some real stories instead. I would really like to know ready frameworks/components used in large scale deployments.

    I personally would like to hear about large scale use of Maverick, commons beanutils, commons validator, Hibernate.
  30. Thank you Michael, I will follow your advice!

    Maybe I should change my name to Trollerud?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  31. Rolf, complaining about negativity is a bit of negativity in and of itself. Your complaint about religiousness of Java/UNIX/Oracle people is a one-sided specious argument at best. .net has its own bigots, they just don't have their ammo yet. Every competitive arena has its religious bigots, but that doesn't mean the entire community around those products should be considered bigots.


    --Robert

    p.s.--I'd like to second the call for a rating system, so that marginally related tangential posts can be thrown into the bit bucket, where they belong, and we can focus on constructive discussion.
  32. Still waiting ...[ Go to top ]

    Can you name a major company that does _not_ use Java/J2EE products?

    "I am afraid this is going to be a very short list.."
  33. Still waiting ...[ Go to top ]

    Can you name a major company that does _not_ use Java/J2EE products?


    Dear Cameron, the person who wrote this statement does'nt say that very few using java/j2ee products, instead he meant that there is going to be very short list of real world projects being exposed here.

    Regards Rasin.
  34. Although a bit dated, there are examples of J2EE deployments in the "J2EE Technology in Practice" book. Here are a couple references (for essentially the same source), the last one contains the case studies.

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201746220/
    http://java.sun.com/features/2001/05/cuttingedge.html
    http://java.sun.com/j2ee/inpractice/

    One of the more useful things in this book is the description of the actual production setups used for a number of deployments, including the system hardware.

    As for my own experience, I can not give many details, but I have worked on an iPlanet/Sybase high throughput, transaction oriented system. It took awhile to shake out all the issues, but, quite frankly, once everything was in place, our system kicked ass.

    Anyway, looking forward to the survey results.

    Don
  35. Every year I view the discussion with the current year Nobel price winners, and what is strange is all the not well though out and immature answers they have as soon as they stray out from their chosen fields. It seems that while you’re getting older you are better and better in your own work, but more and more ignorant of everything else.

    According to Bill Roth at Sun the EJB were written for (and by) the systems software architects at the roughly 80 companies in the world that build enterprise-class transactional software. Yet some of these still needs to use Corba/C++, another part of can possible get by with Web Services.

    But the guys that working in the small segment that is left believe that EJB is useful for everything..

    And one year has passed with .NET and the situation is becoming a little clearer. Both popularity of language and surveys on jobsearch sites point to the same numbers: .NET is about 10 - 11% of Java. What that is more telling though is that *the Java segment is not growing* while all signs point upwards for .NET. Also mono is starting to get useful, the first commercial products have begun to appear - it's possible now to develop in mono now - deploy in .NET until the summer when mono is more stable. At the moment there are over 1000 developers at Microsoft working on the next version of .NET.

    So for me the EJB discussion is not interesting anymore, nor the .NET-J2EE issue.

    What is interesting to me however is how this hopeless love of "Computer Science" and massive campaign of half-truths, slander, innuendoes, arrogance, personal attacks as well as down right lies possible?

    It's happened before - the tulip craze in the 17th century comes to mind. But that was about ordinary people, is not the normal mature well educated computer consultant an intellectual? On the other hand, the western intellectuals have a history of loveaffairs with the old Soviet Union, one of the all time horror regimes in history. So I guess being intellectual does not provide protection..

    "The Java/UNIX/Oracle camp particularly seems to enjoy casting their technical preferences in quasi-religious terms that encourage hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. The rhetoric used by Java advocates about Microsoft and Bill Gates is not subject to common standards of decency."

    With the old Sovjet Union I was never tempted even if I knew nothing of the atrocities that were committed.

    The reason was quite simple really:

    "People with that attitude and such language can never be right"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  36. @Rolf

    The western intellectuals had good relations to Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels not to the UDSSR...

    And I thought this thread is about J2EE success stories not about teaching us history...:-)

    Oliver.Lauer@sk-koeln.de
  37. Oliver,

    I don't think case stories is going to appear in any great number so we can as just enjoy our self!

    But I would be nice to have some apologies or excuses, like, you know, "sorry I was taken by the craze", “I was overcome by a temporal blind spot”, “my girlfriend got the blue screen and I lost my temper”, etc etc

    or something..

    after all, most of them are basically agreeable persons,
    (I think)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  38. Rolf, stop trolling. Your message could barely be considered tangentially related to the subject at hand, which is to talk about J2EE success stories, not .net vs. j2ee.
  39. I could list a number of large projects that I have seen fail because of lack of good standard infrastructure. Unfortunately one of the projects I had participated got eventually canned because we had not used J2EE! Having put the political issues aside, the argument not using J2EE was valid.

    Where is J2EE used then? Having worked for a telco in Finland, I can say that Java and J2EE are pretty much the only acceptable choices there. I would be surprised to see anything else being used in most cases. .NET/Microsoft has very little footing there, especially in the server room. If you ever have to deal with myriad of legacy systems that run on Unix,Linux,VMS, you name it, then Java starts to look like a pretty damn good option.

    I am not putting down .NET, I am just saying that Java has areas where it can be superior due to its OS transparency. .NET is just too much Microsoft centered to become an option in heterogenic environments.
  40. It would be interesting to read about large scale deployment
    and other things you mentioned, indeed.

    We have finished a J2EE project recently, but there was nothing exceptionally curious about it.

    It might be worth to note extensive use of open source products like JBoss, Tomcat, Apache FOP and STRUTS.

    FOP was used to generate PDF reports from XHTML. We wrote a small XSLT that converts XHTML to FO, which was transformed to PDF. All that was more suitable for us than Oracle IAS based "report server".

    Maris
  41. First, a posting that is on topic for this message/article. I've used J2EE-based solutions for a variety of Fortune-500 clients in the last few years. Some of these solutions were reasonably straight forward "community" types of applications (forums, etc..) and some were more complex B2B and Content Management types of applications. In every case that I know of, we built and deployed the solution successfully. (I even know of one case where we built the J2EE application and the client pulled it to re-built it as a MS-based solution. They never succeeded, despite the vast amount of money they put into it.)

    Second, a request. Floyd et al., could a rating or ranking system be built into the forums here? If you look at how community-based sites like Slashdot work, people can rank postings. The lower the posting is ranked, the less likely it is to show up. By default, junk messages, trolls, and such are ranked fairly low and fall below the default view threshold. This would seem to be a good compromise to handle Rolf and friends. I think its fine for people to post dissenting opinions, however they seem unable to let any thread of discussion pass without trying to tear is apart with personal views and biases. So, if they post a message that is just looking for flames, it will get ranked down and everybody else may be able to have a discussion for once. My problem is that each thread of interest is generally destroyed by arguments, flames, and disruptions from.. well.. the Non-Java side of the camp. This would be a good way to allow people to post fairly, but also having the community decide what it would like to read.
  42. Dear Paul!

    Thank you for calling me a troll. Have it ever occurred to you that we may be right? That the big Java app servers are not the solution to all problems? That companies needlessly are burning billions of dollars each year?

    I am not bashing all Java and community (contrary to the J2EE camp who advocates that everything Microsoft does is shit)

    There are only 3 things I would want to change.

    1) Remove EJB and replace it with some nice AOP solution.
    2) Stop speaking in quasi-religious terms
    4) Try to be honest when you speak of Microsoft and Bill Gates

    You never find people from Apache/Jakarta, unmatched in professionalism, involved in any of this.

    In short, try to conduct yourselves with common standards of decency!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  43. That companies needlessly are burning billions of dollars each year?

    Our J2EE e-business plateforme use JBoss on GNU/linux
    and spend 0$/year.

    >1) Remove EJB and replace it with some nice AOP solution.
    EJB != entity
    >2) Stop speaking in quasi-religious terms
    agree. i hate the word 'evangelist'
    >4) Try to be honest when you speak of Microsoft and Bill Gates
    You are right on this point: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

    Regards
  44. Rolf -

    As many (including me) have said, no one is making you use any big j2ee app server and no one is making you use EJBs. No one says that big java app servers are the solutions to all problems (except the marketing arms of the big app server companies - but so what - everyone knows marketing garbage when they hear it, right?).

    <quote>
    1) Remove EJB and replace it with some nice AOP solution.
    </quote>
    What's your experience with both EJBs and AOP and how would you go about replacing them (EJBs) with an AOP solution? (If you are actually interested in this topic, you might consider a look at JBoss's current and future ideas as regards EJBs.)

    <quote>
    2) Stop speaking in quasi-religious terms
    </quote>
    Who here on this list is using any quasi-religious terms? Typically, this list tries to discuss experiences we have had - personally, none of mine have been religious - regarding java and j2ee.

    <quote>
    4) Try to be honest when you speak of Microsoft and Bill Gates
    </quote>
    OK - honestly, I have used MS products for years during the course of my work, sometimes intensively. Products like VB, VC++, SQL Server, Front Page,Access, etc. The products have been average (at best) with perhaps SQL Server at just above average. But mostly average. Bill Gates? He's an exceedingly rich guy who's company markets average products really well, in my opinion. And see, I didn't say that everything that MS does is shit, right? I (and many people on this list) try and talk about things based on my experiences with them. Those are, in general, my experiences with Microsoft products.

    <quote>
    In short, try to conduct yourselves with common standards of decency!
    </quote>

    Thanks for being our moral guiding light!


    Cheers
    Ray
  45. The first step towards decency is truth.

    As a decent person, I will not conceal my experience, which is that every shop that has adopted Microsoft tools has sunk beneath their unreliability.

    As a decent person, I will not applaud Microsoft's consistent history of unethical business practices.

    As a decent person, I will point out that you have descended to the ethical level of whichever immature Java enthusiast it was who evidently wounded your pride on some long-previous occasion. I would apologize on that person's behalf, if I thought it would help. In the meanwhile, your contributions to these forums are the moral equivalent of sniper fire. Censorship is impermissible; but a germaneness test, which is common practice elsewhere, suggests itself.
  46. Tollerud:

    >Dear Paul!
    >
    >Thank you for calling me a troll.

    I have a request for enhancement (RFE) for TSS threads. After Mr. Tollerud posts his first message, please mark the whole thread as *TOLLERUDED*. Just to distinct trash from informative threads.

    Thanks,
    Andreas
  47. Andreas,

    Now you are unfair. How shall I then amuse myself?

    Notice that not a single case with some of the big app servers (Weblogic, Websphere) have appeared. With name of the company and details..

    After all, malicious delight is the only true form of joy..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  48. Rolf: "Notice that not a single case with some of the big app servers (Weblogic, Websphere) have appeared. With name of the company and details.."

    In the example I cited, it was WebLogic 8.1 with Coherence 2.0 on Windows 2000 Server on Compaq hardware, using both entity and session EJBs, although only a few EJBs.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  49. Thanks Cameron,

    I have related question. Can you give us some idea how did the J2EE on Windows work out?

    I am asking, since from my very incidental experience Windows + J2EE is (ironically) quite often best combination.

    - for one Windows is quite realiable and secure as long as you do not run MS applications (IIS, SQL svr),
    - Java run fast on Windows (I think java on Linux threads issue is still not solved),
    - hardware is very cheap, and although single Wintel box doesn't scale well beyond 2 processors, J2EE scales well horizontally across multiple boxes.
    - number of deployment and configuration related human errors is much lower then on Unix production platform.

    Now obviously it is not what Sun/Oracle/IBM/ would recomend in whitepapers.

    So I am asking other independent consultants, is it only me or Java on Wintel makes sense in production?
  50. Yes, I've had good experiences with Java on Wintel. I think the choice of which platform to run J2EE on should be the customer's. Which platform do they feel happiest supporting? Of course, clustering has such an overhead that deferring the need for it or minimizing the size of a cluster means that more powerful hardware than Wintel allows often makes sense. Also, some app servers charge per CPU, making large clusters of small machines unattractive.
  51. Rod,
    I do not entirely agree with your justification of big iron boxes. But your point of view is very common so I would appreciate some more insight.


    "Of course, clustering has such an overhead that deferring the need for it or minimising the size of a cluster means that more powerful hardware than Wintel allows often makes sense"

    I think you refer to clustering of EJBs, as having overhead which definitely is true, but to scale horizontally across boxes does not imply EJB cluster. Load balancing of the HTTP request with sticky sessions seems to be a right solution for 90% of the cases. There is no overhead in that. Although it is probably not a cluster, it scales very well horizontally.

    I ignored session failover issue, but I believe it is a little overrated, and if needed there may be better solutions then clustered EJBs.



    "Also, some app servers charge per CPU"

    That's true.

    ", making large clusters of small machines unattractive"

    Thetas not true, you want to minimise number of processors not boxes. It would mean fastest processors available at reasonable cost and that means Intel/AMDs in Wintel/Linux boxes.

    To minimise licensing costs you would not buy 4x750Mhz Unix box when 2+GHz Intel and AMDs are a commodity.

    I assume MHz for MHz comparison since I did not find much proof that proprietary architectures like SPARC are much more efficient per MHz (although they may move electrons in more orderly and aesthetically pleasing manner).

    Let me know what you think,
    Michael
  52. Big boxes or many boxes?[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    Load balancing of the HTTP request with sticky sessions seems to be a right solution for 90% of the cases. There is no overhead in that. Although it is probably not a cluster, it scales very well horizontally.
    </quote>
    Agreed--this is often a good solution. It depends what QOS you demand. If you demand absolute reliability (which many people expect from a cluster, perhaps wrongly) you have to accept an overhead. If you can live with the odd dropped session (or have a stateless app or keep state in the browser), clustering is a breeze.

    I'm not a hardware expert, but I don't think Mhz comparison is very useful. However I would love to see figures of Intel vs Sparc and the like, whether using Windows, Linux, Solaris or whatever.

    My personal experience is that J2EE or Windows is very stable. However, I've rarely seen it used in production.

    Rod
  53. J2EE on Wintel[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    we are runing a J2EE application (banking) on NT, 2 GB, 1000MHZ (cluster - 2 maschines - sticky sessions) successfully and fastly...

    On one day the application creates around 8000 entity beans...and reads a lot more of those...

    I love EJB 2.0 cause I've worked with 1.0, 1.1...:-)

    From my personal point of view I would like to switch to any Unix but due to the lack of problems and the close relationship to NT/Win2K...of our company we'll stay on Wintel for the next months.

    We are doing some Linux considerations at the moment...

    4000 users, EJB2.0, Tomcat 4.1, Struts, Borland Appserver, Oracle 8, JCA, OS390, CICS, DB2, Cobol...

    I don't want make any marketing for Borland but I must admit the performance of the CMP engine is amazing and the tight integration of jBuilder makes development much easier for our developers...than 1/2 years before.

    Nevertheless the learing curve is still very high, especially for Mainframe developers....

    I've worked with Sun and IBM...and with J2EE since it all started...and hopefully never ends...:-)

    Oliver.Lauer@sk-koeln.de
    Stadtsparkasse Cologne
    Germany

    P.S AXA Insurance is using J2EE (all over the world), too...I know cause I worked for them...
  54. Re: fast CMP and CICS access[ Go to top ]

    Thanks/vielen Danks Oliver,

    Thats very informative. I've heard good stories about Borland AS in real life (as opposed to good stories in redbooks), but unfortunatelly haven't yet chance to try myself.

    When you say:
    >>performance of the CMP engine is amazing

    do you mean only in comparison with other CMP implementations or generally as persistence layer ?

    I am in particular interested if good CMP would be significantly faster/worth the effort when compared to reflection based OR mapper like Hibernate.

    >> OS390, CICS, DB2, Cobol
    Can you say what kind of connector do you use to call CICS from J2EE ? Did it generate J2EE wrappers for CICS transactions based on COBOL linkage copybooks or did you have to write them manually ?

    I've used MS COMTI for this, but I would appreciate some J2EE references. Especially if you used the CICS connector not tied to specific Application Server.

    Thanks,
    Michael

    http://ITSolv.ca
  55. J2EE on Wintel[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    I meant in comparison to different CMP implementations and and in comparison to EJB 1.1.


    We've built our own JCA adapter. It talks XML/TCP to OS390/CICS and invokes CICS transactions.

    Those transactions are in special developed for our JCA and invoke standard transactions and programs via exec-cics link() or exex cics start transid().

    So we had to do some customizations on the CICS side for our JCA.

    Oliver
  56. Big boxes or many boxes?[ Go to top ]

    My personal experience is that J2EE or Windows is very >stable. However, I've rarely seen it used in production.


    We are using running Borland AppServer on Win2k and is in production. It is very stable and we came across very minor problems in the past 6 mons.
  57. Michael: "I have related question. Can you give us some idea how did the J2EE on Windows work out? I am asking, since from my very incidental experience Windows + J2EE is (ironically) quite often best combination."

    Windows is not my favourite server OS at all, but I suggested it to this customer because of several reasons:

    1) They already have some amount of Intel server hardware available
    2) Linux servers are not supported by their infrastructure group yet, although they want to use Linux eventually
    3) They already have Windows server admin software in place, so adding more Windows servers will not have to go through red tape

    Add to that the fact that price/performance (just looking at ops/sec) is very good for Intel, and it seemed like the best business choice for their organization.

    (I know it doesn't fulfill the "anti-M$ charter" to be suggesting the use of Windows, but I try to be pragmatic, not dogmatic.)

    Michael: "- for one Windows is quite realiable and secure as long as you do not run MS applications (IIS, SQL svr)"

    (IMHO) Windows 2000 (not NT) is fairly reliable if you don't allow it to be overloaded. Even IIS and SQL Server are fine if you don't push them too hard. Once Windows enters the "red zone" though, it never recovers. So the key to stable Windows deployments is never letting it get under intense load.

    Michael: "- Java run fast on Windows (I think java on Linux threads issue is still not solved)"

    Agreed that Java is good on Windows. I haven't had problems in the past year with Java on Linux either though. Java on HP or Sun is slower (per $) but very good.

    Michael: "- hardware is very cheap, and although single Wintel box doesn't scale well beyond 2 processors, J2EE scales well horizontally across multiple boxes."

    Exactly.

    Michael: "- number of deployment and configuration related human errors is much lower then on Unix production platform."

    My experience is that Windows shops should stick with Windows, Linux shops with Linux, and Unix shops with Unix, because otherwise they will have loads of pain getting the deployment to be stable and secure and correct. Most of the companies that we work with are Unix in the datacenter, and Windows is not really present there.

    Michael: "Now obviously it is not what Sun/Oracle/IBM/ would recomend in whitepapers."

    Sun and IBM have good server hardware and OSs. They have nothing to be ashamed of in terms of stability and security and scalability. You get those things for a price, though.

    Michael: "So I am asking other independent consultants, is it only me or Java on Wintel makes sense in production?"

    AMD and Intel have made the concept of a high level of operations at a low level of dollars a reality. Microsoft and the various Linuxes have made it possible to obtain a fairly good quality OS at fairly reasonable prices (often $0 for Linux, usually $1k-$2k for Windows).

    It is obvious that the competition from Linux will help Microsoft improve their server OS, and competition from AMD will help Intel improve their chip speeds. If those two (Win and Tel) don't keep on the ball, they'll be the ones playing market-share catch-up though ;-).

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  58. Thanks Cameron,

    I am apparently sane, thats reassurring.

    "(IMHO) Windows 2000 (not NT) is fairly reliable if you don't allow it to be overloaded. Even IIS and SQL Server are fine if you don't push them too hard. Once Windows enters the "red zone" though, it never recovers. So the key to stable Windows deployments is never letting it get under intense load. "

    Process scheduling seems to be one weekest part of Windows. Worst part is that none I spoke to seems to know how it works, so the only safe solution is to stay in green zone.

    Sadly though I have seen same thing happen on the HPUX though, again root cause was human error in system kernel configuration (or lack thereof). The end result was the same, someone had to pull the plug and it took a while to find what happened.

    BTW. Did anyone has some success with load balancers using load based routing, that would prevent reaching red-zone ?


    "My experience is that Windows shops should stick with Windows, Linux shops with Linux, and Unix shops with Unix, because otherwise they will have loads of pain getting the deployment to be stable and secure and correct. Most of the companies that we work with are Unix in the datacenter, and Windows is not really present there.
    "
    Very right, routine seems to be a key to quality. But still even in Unix shops developers are often young Java/Windows people and there is a lot of room for miscommunication with older Unix admins. Deploying on Linux the gap seems to be much smaller.

    Using cheap Win/Linux hardware makes also easier to have a mirror production like configuration where deployment/config issues can be flushed out.


    Regards,
    Michael
  59. Rolf;

    I hope for your sake you realize that your remarks (especially the last one about malicious delight) seem to indicate that you're some rather childish computer geek who's not really interested in a serious discussion. I am really sick of your pathetic flamebaits, and I believe that it is because of comments such as your own that a serious discussion cannot be held in this forum.

    I feel sorry for you if you honestly believe that just because a single case with WebSphere or WebLogic (or others) hasn't appeared, then there are no real world project stories with J2EE. After all, as you would have said: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. I don't know too much about the adoption of .net servers, but I don't think the burden of proof is on the J2EE side when it comes to real world project stories.

    By the way, I work for a major Norwegian company running four WebSphere 4.0.2s in production (as well as 4 WASs in a test environment and another 4 WASs in a quality assurance environment). We integrate with CICS and DB2 on S/390 mainframes. We use RACF and LDAP databases for user management. We host Novell's ExteNd Director on WebSphere without a hitch. (It was moved from SilverStream AppServer and redeployed on WAS - and only had to have a few config parameters changed). We host exactly the same EJBs on another WAS installation on Linux for experimental purposes. The intention is to replace the WAS/NT servers with WAS on virtual linux servers on S/390. We have a fully automated building/deployment process using Ant. The users are very satisfied, as are the guys who maintain the systems.

    I doubt that this will satisfy you (but then, nothing probably will), but I am bound by a non-disclosure agreement and can't be more specific.

    Best regards,
    Anders Lund
  60. Since some specific products were mentioned, I'll mention two projects from the last two years offhand that I was involved with.

    The first was for a large international company that was building a combined B2C and B2B site. It supported end users with information and helped to engage consumers. It supported business relationships through pushing/pulling products through the supply chain. There were various information management aspects, commerce, and EAI integration for managing business details. This was built on iPlanet Application Server (iAS) 6.

    The second was for a large non-profit that needed content management and application consolidation. We built it on WebLogic and used EJBs for some aspects of the site. Using that, we were able to expose some site logic as DCOM components and make them accessable to desktop-based clients as well as to web users. This consolidation in business logic was a big benefit, and the overall site worked quite well. This was on WebLogic 5, and later moved to 6.
  61. Rolf,

    To me, it seems like you are the only person on this list waging the .Net vs J2EE war.

    > Notice that not a single case with some of the big app servers
    > (Weblogic, Websphere) have appeared. With name of the company
    > and details..

    So you are saying that these companies have survived for years without a single successful launch of a project using their respective application server?

    Please tell us about all the successful .Net projects you have worked on and also about your J2EE experiences. And please provide us with a few professional references so we can assess your reliability. And if you don't mind, I would like to see your resume.

    I am pro java, but I do not limit my options. I use the right tool for the job.

    FYI: In the past 2 years, I have deployed several J2EE based systems for companies like BellSouth, AT&T, and Cingular Wireless.

    Thanks,
    James
  62. Rolf,

    I suppose I shouldn't take the time to continue this.. however, to reply to your note. Yes, I do call you a troll, atleast in message posting terms. (I haven't met you in person, so I couldn't speak for that. ;) ) Anybody going into discussions on a targeted community web site and attempting to disrupt them and cause problems with them is essentially a troll. If I went on to a .NET site and posted about Java beating .NET in enterprises, or went onto a linux site and posted about Windows Server 2003 being better, that would be trolling. Those sites are there for a specific community, and although debate and discussion is good.. repeated and continued attempts to disrupt discussion and take messages off track is trolling.

    I'm not one who is religious on software or computers. They are tools. I'm not one who hates (or loves) EJB.. or for that matter.. JSP.. servlets.. JMS.. or any other api you want to choose. They are tools.. they have their places. If people put then in the wrong place and have trouble, thats just a shame.

    So, since you are saying that I speak in quasi-religious terms or speak of Microsoft/gates, I would like you to find those posts. I think you would have a difficult time.

    As for removing EJB.. why? If you don't like it, thats fine. EJB is much easier than it used to be, and is perfectly good for many solutions. Instead, I would like to see it *SUPPLEMENTED* with good mapping solutions. JDO is going down that path. As for AOP, its interesting and may have a good fit.. so why not have all avenues explored to make a more complete and comprehensive environment?

    One final note. Its interesting.. to quote you: "..try to conduct yourselves with common standards of decency!" Obviously you see yourself as not a part of this community if you must refer to all other users of the forums as "yourselves". Why do you persist, since you obviously aren't a beneficial advocate of the technology base you propose. I say that because a beneficial adovocate would attempt to engage meaningful discussion in appropriate places.. the main discussion areas for example. They would not be tossing out inappropriate notes in other discussions and irritating people. I would say that you do more to hurt the perception of .NET/Microsoft in this process than you do to help it. If you really care about being an advocate, try doing it in the appropriate places.

    thanks,
    paul
  63. <Rolf>
    You never find people from Apache/Jakarta, unmatched in professionalism, involved in any of this.
    </Rolf>

    You know he has a good point here. I find it hard some times to read some of the comments being posted. It is the rare and refreshing gems posted by Cameron and others that keep me coming back for more. But these seem to be getting lost in the mounds of trash posts.

    Injecting more "slashdot" into this sight would be a bad thing because all the opposing comments would be ranked away.

    I have to say Rolf's three things he would like to change are all valid.

    Greg
  64. About injecting more "slashdot" here.. my intent was not that the discussion would closely follow the typical discussion at slashdot (that would generally not be a good thing..) But to provide the capability for article-based message threads to be more managed.

    Keep in mind that the article discussion threads are there for a very specific purpose. There is also many general purpose discussion forums available that can be used for all other discussions. I would not think that a rating system would be effective on those.. or that it could cause the problem of ranking away opposing view points.

    So, indeed.. Rolf (or anybody, since it isn't really just about Rolf) may have good or bad points, but if they are off topic, just like on a managed mailing list, they wouldn't appear. The nice thing about this site is that you could accomplish both directed and undirected discussions easily.
  65. Just a note:

    The current count of messages on this thread is at 55.

    Of those 55, 25 are either authored by Rolf or in response to those authored by Rolf. None of these are on topic.

    In this count, I did not include the 2 that Rolf posted that were *on* topic.
  66. Oh come on Elaine, am I not to have a little fun? There seem to be lot of room and open space here..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  67. Hi all,
    First of all, let me introduce my open source Java Jsp/Servlet forum (bulletin board). It is built on the MCV model and has been specially designed to fit the Jsp/Servlet model, and can scale large without problem.
    One of real-world forum which are using mvnForum is http://www.cgchannel.com/forum/ , which has about 30,000 professional artists visit each day and use resource of less than 1% on a Dell server with a 1.2Ghz PIII CPU, 512 MB of Ram, 18 GB SCSI HD
    If you would like more detail, please visit:
    http://www.mvnforum.com

    http://www.cgchannel.com/forum/

    The secret behind the CG Channel Forum...


    Thanks,
    Minh Nguyen
    mvnForum Developer
    MyVietnam.net
  68. mvnForum, a real world J2EE web app[ Go to top ]

    Minh,

    Congratulations to the first case of Real World J2EE Projects!

    First impressions. Nice snappy site, your software together with Resin, my favourite, and no EJB.

    Perfect.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  69. Hi PPL,

    Its amazing how nowadays all threads on TSS deteriorate into a .NET vs J2EE "debate", flame match or whatever. Can't we just stick to the topic of the thread for once without letting personnal "feelings/preferences" and conspiracy theories get in the way. I believe that TSS threads are becoming less interesting and poorer quality as a result. So far in about thirty something odd posts, very few even relate to the topic of the thread!

    Its OK to dislike .NET, its OK to dislike J2EE, its also OK to dislike EJB (entities or otherwise). But for heavens sake please stick to the topic of the thread and not bloat it with flames, abuse, etc. We are professionals here! (Well at least I think so) We are also adults! Playground abuses, etc just don't cut it! This is very dissapointing because "respectable/respected" people on here are also guilty. Like an earlier poster suggested a rating system for posts (or something similar) would be a good idea. I know we need to have freedom of speech etc, but I think we have a real problem here.

    Cheers

    Smythe
  70. I have been involved with several successful J2EE applications. Admittedly, none of them have been “large scale” in terms of user base however one is a pretty large HR system involving about 64 entity beans. Following J2EE best practices and developing a decent framework has made these applications perform impressively well. To this point we have a 100% success rate and deliver applications on a regular basis.

    Orion has become our application server of choice, I have found it to be good for both development and deployment as its startup and deployment times are short. In my personal opinion the big application servers are going in the wrong direction choosing to fight the feature war at the cost of mind numbing complexity (and perhaps bloated, sometimes buggy software).

    I have recently adopted Hibernate as an alternative to entity beans to allow us to further leverage the power of OOA and OOD, very impressive.

    - Kirt
  71. Kirt,

    Interesting post... We are currently exporing CMP Entities at work but are not too sure what overheads etc that they would incur (Although we will use far fewer that 64 entities - a fairly small prototype)

    Just a couple of questions...
    1. What sort of hardware was your application running on?
    2. Did you use BMP or CMP (If CMP what commit options did you use)?
    3. For reads did you use fast lane reader or the leverage the chacheing features of CMP (any experience with that)?
    4. Did you use any appserver specific optimisations?

    Thanks

    Smythe
  72. Smythe,

    I have used both CMP and BMP, on the HR application mentioned I used BMP due to the fact that it was started before the EJB 2.0 spec was released and I was not real thrilled with the 1.1 CMP specification.

    > 1. What sort of hardware was your application running on?

    Our production server (yes one for now, clustered soon) is an HP lh 3000 with dual 933MHz processors, 256 MB Ram and 256 L2 cache running Windows 2000.

    > 2. Did you use BMP or CMP (If CMP what commit options did you use)?

    Mostly BMP, as I mentioned in my previous post I am now considering a change to EJB 2.0 CMP or Hibernate, so far I like Hibernate (http://hibernate.sourceforge.net).

    > 3. For reads did you use fast lane reader or the leverage the chacheing features of CMP (any experience with that)?

    Fast lane reader. I have not used CMP for large resultsets for quite some time, the last time I did I was disappointed by the results.

    > 4. Did you use any appserver specific optimisations?

    The default on Orion is to assume that it is the only source updating the table, I left the default for all tables excluding shared tables. I also used Orion's copy by reference option in some cases, again this is prior to Orion adopting EJB 2.0 local interfaces.

    - Kirt
  73. Kirt thanks for your answers. :-) It seems like no one I have spoken to actually use the cacheing features of CMP. I wonder why that is the case? In the Spec it seems like a good idea in theory (A God send even) but most people I have spoken to get poor (or inadequate) performance in practice.

    Has anyone had any good experiences with the CMP2.0 cacheing feature on their large (or not so large) projects (Details please - approx number of records being brought back, concurrent users, hardware, appserver, etc)?

    People... in your experiences is the CMP2.0 cacheing feature viable (or have the appserver vendors not quite got it right yet)? If so why do you think performance is (generally) poorer than direct JDBC. I know some people would probabaly prefer a 3rd party cacheing solution but that might not always be possible (budgets, politics, etc). Besides IMHO its nice to have such a useful feature part of the Spec (if it works :-)).

    Thoughts please...

    Cheers

    Smythe
  74. EJB 2.0 Caching[ Go to top ]

    I have found the Caching to be a great benefit of EJB 2.0 entity beans. Of course, nothing is set in stone, and the design of your application and the cache implementation can greatly impact things. Also, if you are running in a cluster, the rate of data updates/change can impact your success (ie: cache management overhead) of the cache.

    One product I like is MVC's persistence engine. It can be added to a variety of application servers, and has some good control over the cache configuration and management. However, most new app servers give you some control over this.

    So, look at your application needs, consider what data could be cached, what updates frequently, your overall application/system architecture, and then decide what you need to do. But, usually the cache offers real speed benefits for me.
  75. Goto,
    http://www.dell.com/us/en/dfh/default.htm

    and browse the inventory there. This is a J2EE web application. It also uses Web Services written in Java
  76. To java geek.

    Sorry, Netcraft is reporting:

    The site www.dell.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000

    And if you go to your link and click the "New Software & Peripherals" tab, you got
    http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/default.aspx?cs=22&c=us&l=en

    in other words - a .NET/C# page.

    So far only two companies have been named in this list - one of which was a .NET site (or maybe Mono).

    Hmm..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  77. Rolf,
    The Dell's main site runs on MS technologies,but the Refurbished one is J2EE application. The link I posted is for Dell's Refurbished website. Just goto that link and on that page you will see a drop down View Inventory --> Select A Model. Select any Model from that dropdown and it will take you to J2EE application.
  78. Rolf: "So far only two companies have been named in this list"

    auto - Ford. GM. VW. BMW.
    energy - Chevron. BP. E/M.
    comms - Sprint. BT. Verizon. SBC. Cingular.
    cons elec - Sony. EA. Fujitsu.
    US govt etc. - Fannie Mae. Freddie Mac. The US IRS. The US Armed Forces.
    Biotech - Merck. Incyte Genomics.
    financial - Merrill Lynch. GE Capital. MNBA. JP Morgan Chase. Schwabb. Bank of NY. E*Trade. Discover. 1st Bank.
    semicon - Intel. IBM. International Sematech. Siemens.
    ins/mutual - Mass Mutual. Aetna. Liberty Mutual.
    web - Overture. Yahoo. Google. Amazon.
    sup chain - Ariba. Yantra. Skyva. Manugistics.
    tech - Tibco. Oracle. BEA. Iona. Software AG.

    Can you name a major company that does _not_ use Java/J2EE products?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  79. I found some java case studies here

    http://java.sun.com/j2ee/inpractice/

    But I like to see something like this:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/productinfo/casestudies/default.asp
  80. More[ Go to top ]

    Found this on java

    http://industry.java.sun.com/javanews/more/success/0,1961,,00.html

    Sorry if someone else has already posted this link
  81. case studies[ Go to top ]

    Hi all, i think nobody posted this before, these are case studies just of JBoss, the open source App Server.

    http://www.jboss.org/services/references/
    among the enterprises :

    * Elogex
    * Norwegian Air
    * Norwegian Post
    * LION Bioscience
    * Dow Jones Indexes
    * BASF case study
    * German Bundestag Election

    very interesting indeed..

    BTW, Rolf, isn't there any list of .Net for you post your bullshit? If you can't contribute except making nonsense criticism, go away, or just stay quiet.

    By the way, i work for a Electoral Court in Brazil, and we have a application running opver JBoss using SLSB and SFSB (for searching) just, becouse of the legacy database. but it works very well. It's still in test, but when in production i'll post you the results.

    Emerson Cargnin
    System Analist
    TRE-SC - Florianópolis - Brazil
  82. Others[ Go to top ]

    I will also add:

    Energy - Schlumberger, Texaco FAMM, Reliant, El Paso, Coral Energy, Intercontinental Exchange (ICE), Dynegy, and the former Enron Online, now UBS Warburg's energy trading system. Cameron mentioned Chevron as well.

    Other energy companies are moving away from Microsoft and to Java...Linux, you see. It's less expensive, and that's an issue with energy companies these days. :)
  83. Enron with Java?[ Go to top ]

    the former Enron Online, now UBS Warburg's energy trading system.


    wasn't Enron a Delphi shop?
  84. Java[ Go to top ]

    I don't know about the rest of Enron, but Enron Online wasn't.
  85. Delphi[ Go to top ]

    Let me make a clarification....on the server, Enron Online was Java. Yes, Delphi on the client. Database - Oracle.
  86. More companies[ Go to top ]

    I used to work for First Health


    www.firsthealth.com

    FHCC

    Mckesson web solutions

    www.mckesson.com

    MCKHBOC ?

    and of coarse my current job is building a employee portal.

    Eric
  87. Bank of America[ Go to top ]

    Bank of America has serveral large java based projects
    underway as well...
  88. In addition to the many sites already named www.mlb.com, www.sprint.com, myuhc.com, www.singaporeair.com, www.aeroplan.com are based on java, the last winter olympics was also run on java ...

    Karthik
  89. I am growing extremely tired of is inflamatory comments
  90. Just a quick sample of large real world J2EE project that's about to start (follow the link):

    http://www.comms.itp.net/features/103822500738862.htm

    Alex
  91. OpenUSS (http://openuss.sourceforge.net) uses EJBs intensively.

    Our installation of OpenUSS (there are other installations available,
    check OpenUSS website) at the University of Muenster - Lehrstuhl
    fuer Wirtschaftsinformatik und Controlling - Prof. Dr. Heinz Lothar
    Grob, Germany, has following data:

    Application:
    - About 8500 users.
    - The behaviour of the application: on some days the load of the
      application is quite high, because on these days the lecturers
      update/upload their lecture materials (BLOBs, EBs) and directly
      some hours after this, all the students download those documents
      at the same time.
    - 40.000 - 70.000 hits per day.
    - Use BLOBs (implemented with CMP EB 1.1) for all the documents
      available -> high volume of data!
    - Use only Stateless SBs, CMP 1.1 EBs, MDBs.
    - Use RemoteInterface all over the beans. Not optimized (RMI).
    - Use setModified for JOnAS optimization.
    - Most important design patterns: Business Interface, Session Facade,
      Value Object.

    OpenUSS Components:
    - JDK 1.4.1
    - Apache Webserver
    - Enhydra Director Load-Balancer
    - Enhydra Servlet Container 5.0
    - JOnAS EJB Container 2.5 RMI
    - InterBase 6.0.1 DBMS

    Server Configs:
    - server01: Windows 2000 Advanced Server, 2 CPU, 500 Mhz,
      1 GB RAM, 30 GB Harddisk
    - server02: Windows 2000 Advanced Server, 2 CPU, 1200 Mhz,
      3 GB RAM, 60 GB Harddisk
    - server03: Windows 2000 Advanced Server, 1 CPU, 1200 Mhz,
      1,5 GB RAM, 30 GB Harddisk
    - server04: Windows 2000 Advanced Server, 1 CPU, 2400 Mhz,
      1,0 GB RAM, 120 GB Harddisk

    The server04 is often down... so actually OpenUSS uses only 3 servers
    at the moment.

    For the architecture diagram please download my presentation at
    the ObjectWeb Conference 2002:
    http://www.objectweb.org/conferences/2002/OpenUSS.pdf

    You can also download OpenUSS because it's Open Source (GPL).

    I agree with all points from Tero Vaananen and Shai Almog
    -> http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?forum=61&thread=6407

    Another important points:

    - In a production site with many users, the performance of JVM is
      *very* important. So the choice of your JVM parameters are very
      important. The GC (Garbage Collector) can be the bottleneck if
      your application has to run 24x7 and you only have a small
      hardware capacity. Read this article for more information for
      JVM parameters, GC:
      
      Turbo-charging the Java HotSpotTM Virtual Machine, v1.4.x to Improve
      the Performance and Scalability of Application Servers at
    http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/turbo/

    - Use load balancer in a production site! I made a mistake in
      the beginning to think, that *one* installation of OpenUSS
      would be enough to handle those users ;-) Forget it!
      The servlet container is fast enough but not the EJB container
      (BLOBs as EntityBeans, slow server, RemoteInterface RMI are
      some of the factors). So all the students (users) were very upset ;-)
      
    - All methods, which should perform fast, should be written
      in Session Facade and have a direct JDBC access. Do not use
      EntityBean in this case.

    - Use LocalInterface to boost the performance for JOnAS. All
      JOnAS developers and also Emmanuel Cachet, who wrote this
      paper JBoss vs. JOnAS also said this to me. My problem:
      no manpower to make this a.s.a.p ;-)
    http://www.cs.rice.edu/CS/Systems/DynaServer/perf_scalability_ejb.pdf

    At the moment we are working on EJOSA-Template (Enterprise Java Open
    Source Architecture) to make the development of component-based J2EE
    application easier for beginners with all those Open Source products,
    which we already used for OpenUSS, thanks to Torsten we have
    already started a project at SourceForge
    -> http://ejosa.sourceforge.net

    Another Open Source projects using Java and J2EE, where our students,
    my collegues and I involved:
    - POW (J2EE Personalized Online Webbanner)
      -> Integrated in OpenUSS
    - Freestyle Learning (Java E-Learning Content Creation System)
      -> http://www.freestyle-learning.de -> English
    - Redwood (J2EE Data Warehouse - Weblog Mining)
      -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/redwood
    - OpenFjord (J2EE Online Research)
      -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/openfjord

    Most of applications were/are developed by our students at our
    university.

    FYI. I'll show OpenUSS and EJOSA at the Open Source Conference in
    Mexico City: CONSOL 2003 (my presentation would be in English ;-))
    -> http://www.consol.org.mx

    Hope this helps!
    --
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Blasius Lofi Dewanto
    ---------------------------------------------------
    OpenUSS - Open University Support System
    http://openuss.sourceforge.net
    ---------------------------------------------------
    E-Mail : dewanto@uni-muenster.de
    ICQ : 39343280
    ---------------------------------------------------
  92. Blasiusm,

    Thank you, for showing the details of the project.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  93. I will write the post-mortem to this pathetic thread. Just waiting to be sure there are no more posts.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  94. Have a look on the JBoss, BEA etc. sites for more references and details of projects.
  95. Rolf,

    Without taking the time to count the number of posts you have made to this thread, I believe you have posted more content than any other individual... I guess that does make this thread "Pathetic".

    I don't understand your approach, let the thread speak for itself. I think we are all intelligent enough to judge if J2EE is being adopted successfully in real world projects.

    Kirt
  96. Waiting eagerly[ Go to top ]

    I'm sure I am not the only one who eagerly awaits your final comments on this thread, Rolf, if it means they will be the last thing you'll be contributing to it....
  97. Well there seems that there are no more posts –

    Michael Szlapa: "I personally would like to hear about large scale use of Maverick, commons beanutils, commons validator, Hibernate"

    Poor guy!

    Having read through the list, taking away

    companies without details of projects
    and projects without details about the company,

    I count 3 stories from TSS members:

    mvnForum sent in by Minh Nguyen in Vietnam (no EJB though)
    Stadtsparkasse Cologne Germany sent in by Oliver Lauer
    Open University sent in by Blasius Lofi Dewanto

    It was only a single case by (Blasius) which was detailed enough to be interesting. Could some kind person please point out for him that the bottleneck of the system is the uploads and downloads and if he redirect those to the two other boxes his system with about one hit per second could be better written in some simple system like LAMP.

    This whole mess of exaggerated claims and unsupported evidence reminds me of past times.. just substitute America for Microsoft and Java/Unix/Oracle crowd for the Soviet Union.

    And as just when US put up their first spy satellite and discovered that the supposed 250 sites of long distance ballistic missiles was only 15! – I await a similar discovery, relatively speaking, from the J2EE camp.

    There are also many more things which are similar.

    Regards from
    Rolf Tollerud
    "a rather childish computer geek who's not really interested in a serious discussion"
  98. I agree with you Rolf Tollerud[ Go to top ]

    I count 3 stories from TSS members:


    Out of which 2 are open source.
    Why dont J2EE community put tomcat, struts and the whole jakarta project on this list. Well they are also in the real world J2EE camp.

    It's really horrible, and the statement
    "I'm afraid this is going to be a short list"
    is indeed true.

    Too bad J2EE community tooooooooooooooo baaaaaaaaaaad.

    Thanks to myself, that I started learning C#.

    Regards Rasin
    Sun Certified Java Programmer.
  99. "Real World J2EE Project Stories"[ Go to top ]

    Rolf -

    <quote>
    This whole mess of exaggerated claims and unsupported evidence reminds me of past times.. just substitute America for Microsoft and Java/Unix/Oracle crowd for the Soviet Union.
    </quote>

    Your statment shows us all exactly how much you understand America, Microsoft, the Soviet Union, and the Java/Unix/Oracle crowd.

    You never cease to amaze with your wit and logic. Remember that no one here is trying to prove anything to your satisfaction - we gave up on that long, long ago.


    Ray
  100. "Real World J2EE Project Stories"[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    there haven't been listed many due to it's sooooo normal to have a J2EE application running in producation.

    It's like asking the people: "Hey, describe the successfull use of your VHS video recorder !".

    And, Rolf, don't forget, we were asked for sending the story to a given email adress. Not to post the details on this thread.

    BTW. Rolf, are you still angry about having bought the Betamax video recorder in the early 80' ?

    Oliver
  101. new discovery![ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "And as just when US put up their first spy satellite and discovered that the supposed 250 sites of long distance ballistic missiles was only 15! – I await a similar discovery, relatively speaking, from the J2EE camp."

    Uh ... there may not yet be 250 .NET apps out there, but I do think it's over 15.

    (Is that what you meant?)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  102. Your post is misleading. The papers are to be mailed to The Server Side, and are not necessarily posted at all to this forum.
  103. "Real World J2EE Project Stories"[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

       If you read the first message in this thread, you'll see that I asked the community to email the stories to us, not post them here. Please followed these instructions and we're sitting on a lot of great stories that we're trying to choose from.

       So please don't take this thread as evidence that there are no J2EE success stories. Further flamebates from you may be deleted.

    Floyd
  104. success story for J2EE[ Go to top ]

    I have been involved with the developement of J2EE based product rom Ericsson and that has been successfully implemented at Finland's telecom operator www.dnafinland.fi.
    using WS messaging, connectors .we have to change the architecture inthe middle of the developemnt from oracle Jserver to J2EE and still we had little problem because of the support and integartion provided by j2EE frame work
  105. sad very sad[ Go to top ]

    such a sad thread...it was so bad I had to stay with it to the end.
  106. horrible thread[ Go to top ]

    Most of the comments does not add one cent worth of value to the thread.
    The discussion forums are becoming a medium to vent one's frustration and anger.
  107. horrible thread[ Go to top ]

    Agreed.

    It seems to me that a lot of people are taking the bait of one especially immature or purposely disruptive interloper. The best thing to do is to let him make his silly comments and leave them for what they are -- vapid, vacuous and intended to provoke.

    J2EE will stand on its own merits over time, or it won't. What's the point in wasting energy defending it esp. when the person making the attacks is plainly wrong? If you continuously expend energy with point and counterpoint, you're only give force to his inane blabber. Simply don't engage and keep focus on the subject at hand.

    BTW as a sales engineer for one J2EE vendor, I personally worked with many companies, large and small, that implemented J2EE. So when I see such ignorance as "I am afraid this is going to be a very short list" on public display, I laugh because nobody could such patently false statements without having some agenda.
  108. sad very sad[ Go to top ]

    Note that we've created the NOISE feature to make sure flame wars like this don't happen again.
  109. sad very sad[ Go to top ]

    Ok, let's test the new system "Mark as Noisy".

    Any big success projects with "J2EE Java Servers" and EJB do not exist.

    Projects with moderately success exist where there are no competition, i e where there is no anything direct to compare with.

    Floyd says he have received a large number of successful projects by mail and is sitting on a lot of great stories. I challenge him to present some.

    Vic Cekvenich (project recovery specialist):
     
    "Conculsion should be: EJBs are slow! much slower than servlets.
    If you use EJB, you will not be able to scale to the level of servlets.
    Also, there are no comercial sites that use EJB (Amazon, EBay, etc.)"

    In Vienna in 1846 doctor Ignaz Semmelweis, who had noticed that the death rate was much higher in a ward tended by physicians and medical students than the ward ministered by midwives ordered all attendants who wash their hands before treating the patients. He was ridiculed, persecuted and summarily dismissed from his job.

    Truth is sometimes hard.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  110. sad very sad[ Go to top ]

    In Vienna in 1846 doctor Ignaz Semmelweis, who had noticed that the death rate was much higher in a ward tended by physicians and medical students than the ward ministered by midwives ordered all attendants who wash their hands before treating the patients. He was ridiculed, persecuted and summarily dismissed from his job.

    Repeating a story about someone who was smart and insightful does not make you either smart or insightful, any more than repeating a story about God creating the universe makes you a creator of the universe.

    "L'écrivain original n'est pas celui qui n'imite personne, mais celui que personne ne peut imiter." (Chateaubriand)
  111. Cameron,

    Doctor Semmelweis is not known to be a genius in any way. Certainly he didn't do any more remarkable in his life. It is rather his "civil courage", to stand against so many and powerful - with what he perceived as truth - in spite of the consequences, that makes him remarkable.

    It certainly is no fun to be accused of flaming and trolling for telling the plain truth. Of course, it helps to know as so the worthy gentlemen as for instance Jurgen Hoeller, Rod Johnson, Vic Cekvenich and Jonathan Gibbons - to speak of just a few - is more or less of the same opinion!
    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  112. It is rather his "civil courage", to stand against so many and powerful

    Yes, you are certainly courageous to defend the small, insignificant and powerless companies (Microsoft) and technologies (.NET) of the world against the infinitely powerful ... uh ... Java developers that habit TheServerSide.

    It certainly is no fun to be accused of flaming and trolling for telling the plain truth.

    That is surprisingly arrogant, to assume that your opinion is somehow "the truth". I thought you disliked arrogance above all else; another classic case of projection?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  113. the defender of EJB[ Go to top ]

    "against the infinitely powerful ... uh ... Java developers that habit TheServerSide"

    And what about IBM, Sun and Oracle? And the massive and dishonest misinformation about MS throughout the world (".net" "sucks" 1,520,000 hits!) and in forum likes Slashdot?

    There are IMHO nothing more comical than the heavy, slow and cumbersome big J2EE App Servers with the quasi-scientific language that comes along with it, which anytime can be blown out of the water by a medium talented programmer with Tomcat and tools from Jakarta - not to speak about .NET.

    But keep on trying! Don't let ambition destroy your useful work though.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  114. the defender of ???[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "dishonest misinformation about MS throughout the world (".net" "sucks" 1,520,000 hits!)"

    You can't have it both ways, Rolf. First, you defend the use of statistics similarly gleaned from job sites. Now, you want to discard similar statistics. Either decide that they suck, or that you like them. Otherwise, you just look like a sore loser.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  115. successful J2EE projects?[ Go to top ]

    I understand that you want to turn this debate into a personal one but I am not taking that bait. Just for the record, I don't question the 1.5 mill "NET sucks" (that only prove how successful the Sun anti-Microsoft campaign have been).

    You're not distracting me from the main point which in this thread is successful J2EE projects.

    eBay have announced that they want to convert to J2EE - for a loooong time ago. Siebel have announced that they will put their CRM system on top of Websphere. I suggest to everyone to follow those projects closely.

    Interesting isn't it? I am waiting.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  116. successful J2EE projects?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: I understand that you want to turn this debate into a personal one

    Don't flatter yourself.

    Rolf: Just for the record, I don't question the 1.5 mill "NET sucks"

    I question it. I think it is a pointless, baseless, misleading statistic. (It was probably intended to be.)

    While I don't think Microsoft should have gone off and built a separate proprietary and incompatible platform (.NET) in the first place, it does not suck. I prefer Java, but not for any major technical reasons. If the Java market didn't exist, .NET would be a reasonable choice for Windows developers.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  117. I prefer Java, but not for any major technical reasons.

    And I prefer .NET - for obvious technical reasons - on all platforms.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (I also prefer .NET for political reasons -
    because MS is a better "Steward" than Sun)
  118. Are these stories going to be posted someday, somewhere? I'd like to see them.
  119. Even ZD Net covers it[ Go to top ]

    What do you do when the heterogeneity of your IT infrastructure and your OS-specific legacy deployments are standing in the way of true progress?
  120. From Boeing[ Go to top ]

    I am almost finished setting up a J2EE Hosting Service on Sun servers using Oracle 9iAS for Boeing. We have a full up dev, pre-prod and prod environments, automated depoyments, release management and over ten active projects participating in only 6 months..... one of them is mine. I am building a J2EE app that will manage and report the Systems operations and status.

    The level of J2EE experience on each project varies but most are coming along pretty well..... Mission critical..... 24 x 7 x 365..... I expect many more new projects this year. And it looks like our servers can handle many thousands of users without even breaking a sweat.....
  121. a short list indeed[ Go to top ]

    The list will be short not because of any of Rolf assumptions being true but because of the general ethics of the publishing company that owns this site..

    The real J2EE stories are at JDJ and their forum site if anybody want sto read them..

    Mine own J2EE story is being saved for book devlopment with Oreilly..a trully ethical unbiased publisher