.NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce

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News: .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce

  1. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce (51 messages)

    .NET Magazine has an interesting article from its editor.

    The editor is full of common sense, not ".NET RULES" thoughts (which you may assume for a .NET magazine):

    "The .NET vs. Java battle has made for great headlines over the last year, but it's become apparent recently that we're unlikely to see a definitive winner any time soon, if ever.
    Gartner predicts that by 2007, 40 percent of programmers will use Java, 40 percent will use .NET, and the remaining 20 percent will use a variety of other languages."

    "But perhaps it's the wrong question to focus on; instead of betting on which platform will be the "winner," take a look at which one will work best for your organization."

    Read the Editors note.

    Article: Integrate .NET and J2EE With Web Services

    Its good to see them writing articles about how to play in our world, instead of assuming that they will assimilate all!

    Threaded Messages (51)

  2. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    A message of cooperation, not domination coming from the MS camp?

    This can't be true, I must be hallucinating... ;)

    But if it is true, then it can only be good.

    (Either that or it's a trojan horse manoeuvre)
  3. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    "The benchmark compares the performance and scalability of this Microsoft .NET Web application to the performance of an equivalent, revised, and FULLY OPTIMIZED J2EE application developed by the Middleware Company." - Microsoft

    http://www.microsoft.com/net/business/XMLbenefits.asp

    'Nuff Said
  4. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    It's a ploy.
  5. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    Not everyone who's in the .net camp is an MS bigot. There are pragmatic reasons to choose a .net solution, just as there are pragmatic reasons to choose J2EE.

    It would be foolhardy to suggest that every .net proponent is also an MS shill.
  6. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    For all you programming veterans out there, was there always language wars? Today it's Java vs. .Net. Was there ever arguments like:
    <br>
    "Oh yeah, well ALGOL can do this! Can your language?"
    <br>
    "Memory management is waaay better in Prolog than in your language."
    <br>
    "APL is much easier to use than COBOL".
    <P>
    Or are language wars a product of the Internet era?
  7. OS holy wars[ Go to top ]

    It used to be the holy OS wars.. and still is!

    Unix of course being the righteous choice.. But then again, you could always fight over the flavor of unix too.

    Oh how I enjoy these stupid ms/.net/java/j2ee threads! Better entertainment than the osbornes!

    //ras
  8. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    By 2007 .Net will have 40% market share? I believe that .Net will be long dead if they don't achieve at least 50%-60% of the market by the end of THIS year. Especially considering the market share in existing VB, VC and DNA shops PLUS what they would want to steal from Java's piece of the pie.

    I would think that with an average 3 year life cycle for business software and Microsoft's rigid new licensing, a 40% share of the market by 2007 would mean that MS would have to be LOSING customers to hit 40%.

    Maybe they know this and maybe they know that .Net has already lost (2 years and so far nothing). Perhaps that's why they removed the ".Net" from their new Windows Server 2003.

    Does anyone here know of real-life projects to replace Java with .Net?

    Cheers,

    Clinton
  9. The embrace... It's not the technologies that is at war but the business models.
  10. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    This is another ploy from M$ evil empire again. .Net is total flop. There are some serious issues with .Not that is similar to windoze. I am not sure where the author sees 40% acceptance when M$ predicted's that everyone will write in .Not by end of this year 2003 but the results show no one is using .Not. Here are some articles for .Not failures


    "C|net is reporting that Microsoft is dropping the name "Windows .NET Server" and going back to "Windows Server 200x" (where x is currently expected to be 3). Other products with .NET in the name are also being evaluated for renaming. Analysts are being quoted as saying that slapping .NET on so many Microsoft products has confused people as to what .NET actually means. Or could it be that customers know what it means, but nobody wants to buy it?" Obiwan Kenobi points out a similar article at ENT News


    http://theregister.co.uk/content/4/28802.html


    Seems like Java and linux is growing ...


    http://theregister.co.uk/content/61/28819.html


    JOnAS for Linux is designed for Java2 Enterprise Edition application serving and is based on ObjectWeb application server tools, while High Availability for Linux is designed to enable the clustering of Web for Linux and Workgroup for Linux application servers with support for the Kimberlite HA high-availability software, Fibre Channel, and DAS 5300 disk subsystem.

    The hardware and software is backed up by a support service that offers hotline support for architecture design and optimization and can be extended to cover remote monitoring, remote management and remote exploitation as well as open source security, network and development environments.
  11. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/10/2059244&mode=thread&tid=109
  12. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    MS is also starting a series of presentations about how integrate J2EE and .NET

    "Microsoft .NET and J2EE Interoperability in your Enterprise" http://msevents.microsoft.com/Events/USA/ENU/Detail/ED1032226149.asp
  13. TheServerSide.com can't be trusted[ Go to top ]

    Getting Java technology news from .Net magazines ... Is this bizarre or what?

    IMHO, TheServerSide.com simply can't be trusted.
  14. Looking at all news is smart[ Go to top ]

    I found it interesting that a .NET magazine would post this kind of article. I was impressed with the fact that the editor gave magazine space to an article that talks about working WITH J2EE, since they know that they HAVE to be able to do so in the enterprise. Their will be no "winner".

    I also think that learning about the "other side" is an intelligent thing to do. How can you fight against something that you are ignorant about?
  15. TheServerSide.com can't be trusted[ Go to top ]

    How can you fight against something that you are ignorant

    > about?

    IMHO, that's a poor excuse for the amount .Net marketing TSS does. Could it be that TMC/TSS is paid to do that? Anyway, if I ever need information about .Net, I'll find it, there's plenty of other (and better) sources.
  16. Microsoft doesn't pay us[ Go to top ]

    This is something that I *can* answer. Firstly, I do not think we do .NET marketing. We try to only show news that relates to J2EE. So for example, this post is about how a .NET magazine is writing about interop with J2EE, as they know that they have to. That is pro-J2EE in my opinion.

    Secondly, I can talk to the fact that TSS does not get paid by microsoft for anything news related, and further more I have never even talked to anyone at microsoft about TSS (other than chatting with Doug Purdy at his hard core tech talk).

    Some may want to believe in conspiracy theories, but I trust Floyd, and know that its all bogus.
  17. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    Dion,


    I am pleased to see you for I have couple of questions:

    Why didn't you put J2EE's best foot forward for the J2EE vs. DotNet Benchmark?

    What is the ratio of Microsoft contracts VS. J2EE contracts at The Middleware Company?
     

    Why hasn't The Middleware Company instructed Microsoft not to use its for misleading customers? Since, we have discovered it is seriously flawed.


    Why hasn’t the report been revoked?
  18. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    n n,

    Unfortunately I had absolutely nothing to do with the benchmark. I am currently doing work for TSS, not TMC.
    These questions are best sent to TMC itself.

    Dion
  19. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    Dion,

       Please educate your parent company. Frankly, if I was within leg distance I would have introduced Roman to my spit shined wing tips. Their flawed benchmark has created irreparable damage.

    http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-01-2003/jw-0110-j2eenet.html?

    "But Gartner Group Research Director Mark Driver says there is at least one message in the benchmark numbers: the idea of .Net not being scalable is a myth. "

    **************************************************************
    "The ironic thing was that it was Java bigots [who did the benchmarks]...Their purpose was to show that Java was faster, and they did everything that they could to level the playing field and get Java to perform."
    **************************************************************
  20. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    Truce? After this massive campaign from the Java/UNIX/Oracle camp with half-truths, slander, innuendoes, arrogance, personal attacks as well as down right lies, encouraging hyperbole, paranoia and hatred?

    Never - it will be fight to the end.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  21. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    With Bill, there is no truce. He fights dirty, we all know it, we all expect it. :) Eventually, though, Windows will be the official OS of the U.S. Government and everyone else in the world will use Linux. I can't wait!

    Steve
  22. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    Eventually, though, Windows will be the official OS of the U.S. Government and everyone else in the world will use Linux. I can't wait!
    </quote>

    This is a good point.
    Do MS really think China and India are going to shell-out $$$ for a .NET licence. Same applies to Windows/Office licences.
    Of course not. Why would they when they have linux and java? It's free.

    There are (from the top of my head about) 200-225 Mpeople in USA (??), and about 900Mpeople in India, and about 1GPeople in China.

    As someone else pointed out in this thread - this isn't about technical issues and architectures - this is about business models. AFAICT java has the advantage right now, but that's only because it's mature. The critical business models and attitudes employed by the producers/controllers of the software.

    IMO, Bill Gates needs to be very afraid, it's the Asian countries that will rule in the next few decades, and they won't allow themselves to be tied in to any company (especially an American one), not only for fiscal but for political reasons too.
  23. Microsoft afraid?[ Go to top ]

    Tim,

    "Bill Gates needs to be very afraid"

    Must I remind you that it is .NET that are an Open ECMA and ISO standard with an open source implementation? (And don't say that mono is immature and not finished and so on, it&#8217;s so boring. I can assure you that it will be finished.)

    It is Java who should be afraid of Open Source, not Microsoft. I have no doubt that even if Windows was taken away tomorrow Microsoft would still make good money by producing software in .NET over Linux, Unix whatever..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  24. Microsoft afraid?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf -

    I have no problem with .NET per se. I have a problem with Microsoft.

    If mono (or any other OS implementation of .NET takes off) then good luck to it. May the best man win.

    I will use the right tool for the right job.

    I fail to see how MS will make money out of opensource implementations of .NET that aren't confined to windows. (maybe consulting and support - but this is nothing compared to the $$$ lost because of lost windows licences).
  25. Microsoft afraid?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf

    <quote>
    Must I remind you that it is .NET that are an Open ECMA and ISO standard with an open source implementation? (And don't say that mono is immature and not finished and so on, it&#8217;s so boring. I can assure you that it will be finished.)
    </quote>

    A couple of questions:

    1.) What major (or even minor) companies are using or are planning to use Mono?
    2.) Given (1), suppose MS pulls the plug on future development of Mono (a very real scenario), what will these companies do? Remember that not everyone in Redmond is happy with the idea of open source.

    Thanks
    Ray
  26. Mono is coming up[ Go to top ]

    Ray,

    Let me first say that I am sure that the project(s) you are working on are correct for EJB and that you are making good use of it.

    Neither do I count you among the fanatics with personal attacks etc etc. In fact I am sure you are both a better programmer as well as architect.

    But first, all EAI is not distributed enterprise-class transactions, a lot of EAI can be done without distributed middleware cache at all. Simply read only from different data sources. Or write to one target at the time, with ordinary transactions.

    Then second, according to Bill Roth at Sun, the EJB were written for (and by) the systems software architects at the roughly 80 companies in the world that build enterprise-class transactional software. Some of these still need to use Corba/C++, another part of can possible get by with Web Services, limiting the segment still further.

    So how many is left? 10 - 12 companies?

    There I think you have your blind spot IMHO. working with one of this companies, heavenly involved and sure you are doing the right thing, you do not realize the
    ridiculous overuse of EJB - by people with less experience that you.

    About Mono.

    "suppose MS pulls the plug on future development of Mono"

    Almost every day now Microsoft is saying some nice about Ximian and Miguel de Icaza In fact I wonder why not somebody in TSS, so found of conspiration theories, has not come up with the accusation that Ximain and Icatza have some business together!

    There are three reasons to why it's never going to happen:

    1) They are happy with the situation. Making money from the development tools have never been a great part of MS revenue relatively speaking. They do not charge runtime fees for example. And Mono is a weapon against Java.
    2) It is not MS practice to sue for IP rights.
    3) Even if they wish to sue, with the current political situation, they shouldn’t stand a chance.
     
    It is quite safe to develop products in Mono now because you can stall the deployment until the platform is stable, deploying with the .NET in the meantime. In fact products
    are already appearing, Tipic are working on porting their Instant Messaging Server platform to Mono. Winfessor announced the availability of their Jabber SDK. And they
    have made their first appearance on Netcraft! "So far, around 1% of internet sites using

    ASP.Net is Linux based"

    Finally.

    I have predicted that the next big market is going to be real Intranet/extranet Web-applications. What constitutes a "Web-application"? Take a look at Microsoft new product CRM Net. Then you see what they have been up to while the J2EE camp was quarreling about:

    Fine Grained EJB
    Coarse Grained EJB
    Coarse Grained Container Managed Entity EJB
    Optimized Entity EJB
    Session over Entity EJB
    Coarse Grained Session EJB, etc etc..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud

    Ras: "TSS is better entertainment than the osbornes!"

    Agreed!
  27. Mono is coming up[ Go to top ]

    <Rolf>
    Then second, according to Bill Roth at Sun, the EJB were written for (and by) the systems software architects at the roughly 80 companies in the world that build enterprise-class transactional software.
    </Rolf>

    There is a misunderstanding here: Bill Roth was talking about *specifications*: "... specifications were not written for application developers... "

    Read more:

    http://www.sys-con.com/java/article.cfm?id=1774

    <Rolf>
    Almost every day now Microsoft is saying some nice about Ximian and Miguel de Icaza In fact I wonder why not somebody in TSS, so found of conspiration theories, has not come up with the accusation that Ximain and Icatza have some business together!
    ...
    2) It is not MS practice to sue for IP rights.
    </Rolf>

    Really? I wouldn't be so sure...

    http://swpat.ffii.org/players/microsoft/

    <Rolf>
    I have predicted that the next big market is going to be real Intranet/extranet Web-applications. What constitutes a "Web-application"? Take a look at Microsoft new product CRM Net. Then you see what they have been up to while the J2EE camp was quarreling about:
    </Rolf>

    Those are very old news. For example, long time ago Oracle started to migrate it's ERP suite to a web based environment. It even offers CRM online.

    http://crmonline3.oracle.com/ofs313/welcome.html

    <Rolf>
    Fine Grained EJB
    Coarse Grained EJB
    Coarse Grained Container Managed Entity EJB
    Optimized Entity EJB
    Session over Entity EJB
    Coarse Grained Session EJB, etc etc..
    </Rolf>

    Again, that's for the developers and architects. SAP, JDEdwards, Oracle are major players that offer enterprise solutions (J2EE based, by the way)
     
    Many, many developers that are used to MS tools don't distiguish between a standard, a technology, a tool and a product. For them Visual Studio is all of them. Nothing wrong with that, after all even Clipper Summer 87 and dBase where easy to use and well suited to develop some business solutions too. There is a problem when they mix in the same paragraph a standard, a product category or a technology, trying to make them appear as if they we're the same.


    Javier


    J2EE is a bunch of specifications, and it is a market.
  28. Mono is coming up[ Go to top ]

    Javier,

    "Those are very old news. For example, long time ago Oracle started to migrate its ERP suite to a web based environment. It even offers CRM online."

    Frankly I don't think you have seen the Microsoft app. Comparing it to the Oracle app it is like comparing a T-Ford to a Lamborghini. AFAIK, Oracle has already decided to give up their CRM online.

    A real Web-application can draw upon all the rich functionality (xul, behaviors, XMLHttp) in the modern browsers. Then it is combined with a similar desktop application for the power users. Then it is placed in the "ecology" of Exchange, the Office suit, report tools etc, integrated with back office legacy systems.

    "distinguish between a standard, a technology, a tool and a product"

    With the success of .NET, the marketing people at Microsoft want to slap the NET name to everything. They are no guiltier than Sun that uses the Java name for everything. Despite of the marketing people the C# and the .NET Framework is a very real, as is Java and J2EE.

    BTW, I do not know any experienced C# developer that use Visual Studio much. One of the reasons for that is that the user interface is already done by a skilled designer, working with the architect.

    Afterwards, working in C#/.NET with only a text editor and the debugger, to implement the design, is pure joy.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  29. Mono is coming up[ Go to top ]

    <Rolf>
    Frankly I don't think you have seen the Microsoft app. Comparing it to the Oracle app it is like comparing a T-Ford to a Lamborghini. AFAIK, Oracle has already decided to give up their CRM online.
    </Rolf>

    The Oracle CRM is built the way it is because they needed to support a broad arrange of platforms and browsers, a not to be tied to some specific technologies in the desktop.

    Your first statement was about the upcoming "real Intranet/extranet" web apps. I believe that the trend "real web apps" exists time ago. I wasn't attacking MS, so it is not necessary to defend it. Of course, the use of .Net forms servers are a great way to improve user experience, and that technology was in use before in BCentral.

    <Rolf>
    A real Web-application can draw upon all the rich functionality (xul, behaviors, XMLHttp) in the modern browsers.
    </Rolf>

    I agree, but then again there are some issues related to deployment. In a project for a major financial institution, we are planning a XSLT based application but before it can be deployed on all browsers we must standardize on Explorer 5.5, because of some issues with the XSL parser. The deployment must be done in 1000+ branches nationwide, and we discard support for other browser than IE. And yes, I believe that web interfaces suck.

    <Rolf>
    Then it is combined with a similar desktop application for the power users. Then it is placed in the "ecology" of Exchange, the Office suit, report tools etc, integrated with back office legacy systems.
    </Rolf>

    Thats nice, I remember projects involving also SharePoint Portal Servr and Team Services with Exchange, but high licensing and updating costs keept from implementing the solution. That ecology integration and the dependencies between products sometimes plays against the projects.

    <Rolf>
    With the success of .NET, the marketing people at Microsoft want to slap the NET name to everything. They are no guiltier than Sun that uses the Java name for everything.
    </Rolf>

    I'm not playing the game bad MS-good Sun, although your point is valid, for a begineer in Java, there is always the need to distiguish between Java as a platform and Java as a programming languaje. But also is true, that for people that comes from PowerBuilder, Deplhi and VB, one of the first questions they raise is "Which is the Java IDE?" because they are used to see in the same pack everything: technology, tools and product.

    <Rolf>
    Despite of the marketing people the C# and the .NET Framework is a very real, as is Java and J2EE.
    </Rolf>

    The framework is real, the products are real, the technology are real. But the common MS programmer usually don't distiguish between them. For them the whole history is related only to Visual Studio.

    <Rolf>
    Afterwards, working in C#/.NET with only a text editor and the debugger, to implement the design, is pure joy.
    </Rolf>

    Is a pitty that joy are not so much touted nor known by the masses.

    Regards
    Javier Castañón
  30. Mono is coming up[ Go to top ]

    Javier,

    "We must standardize on Explorer 5.5, because of some issues with the XSL parser"

    What issues can that be? Mozilla is in some ways ahead of IE. XSLT is powerful but 90% of the stuff can usually be done in CSS1&2 which makes life a good deal simpler.

    "And yes, I believe that web interfaces suck"

    Why do you think that? And why are so many of that opinion?
    In my experience I regard the user interfaces in IE6.x and Mozilla6.x as much more powerful (and more esthetically pleasing too) than the old desktop apps.

    The SharePoint Portal is not a product I would recommend. It is too heavy and bloated. Everything must be lightening fast!


    Ray,

    "Companies that already have Java on the server side aren't sitting around ready to replace that work with .NET I can assure you."

    I know that. I don't expect a single Java programmer to convert - a stubborn lot, able to survive any kind of disaster, they will program in Java until their dying days. But the Java market is not growing anymore.

    And the MS programmers will come to mono, in great masses. I am attacking mono with the same kind of enthusiasm that I once did when MS released J++, - until Sun pulled the plug. Then I tried Java on and off for a while, been involved in 2 fairy large projects, but my heart is not in it.., now I am happy again.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  31. Mono is coming up[ Go to top ]

    Hi!


    "What issues can that be? Mozilla is in some ways ahead of IE. XSLT is powerful but 90% of the stuff can usually be done in CSS1&2 which makes life a good deal simpler."

    AFAIK the issues were related with the way XML were interpreted by the parser. Let me investigate exactly which were the issues, that was the recommendation from one of our architects, that had previously deployed some solution, so we are following his advice.

    The reason we're using XSLT is that we have a middleware running as a mod_perl module in Apache that delivers XML, but we do not want to overload our server with transformations. Having at 9:00am thousands of requests to check the former day position is something that we'd prefer to have on the client, instead of having client side tasks/components running in the server side, you know. Or perhaps put a cheaper server, maybe a linux box between the clients and the first web server, dedicated to make transformations.

    About using Mozilla... mmhhh... well, it's my favorite browser, both for daily navigation and development, but is a fact that almost our customers have sticked with IE for their intranets, and is their corporate standard.

    <Javier>
    "And yes, I believe that web interfaces suck"
    </Javier>
    <Rolf>
    Why do you think that? And why are so many of that opinion?
    </Rolf>

    OK, OK, I concede is a rude comment. Let me clarify, I think the best interface depends very much on the kind of application you're developing and the restrictions imposed to you.

    If the application is intended to capture large amounts of data, like many former character based applications, I would prefer a more responsive and efficient presentation layer, than one based on HTML. You know, it doesn't matter if you're using a powerful MVC framework, or server library, at the end, you have HTML and JavaScript.

    IMO thinlets, Web Start applications, a .Net Form server, etc. are far richer than HTML based interfaces.

    "In my experience I regard the user interfaces in IE6.x and Mozilla6.x as much more powerful (and more esthetically pleasing too) than the old desktop apps."

    One of our customers complained that he thought web interfaces were better than his old Delphi app interface, only to find that when he reached the employees combo box, it wasn't filled with the data of 5000 employees, or it took 3 seconds and a screen refresh to get things done while in the desktop application the data was updated on the fly while navigating the form. I hope it is now clear why under some circumstances I think web interfaces provide a poor user experience.

    "The SharePoint Portal is not a product I would recommend. It is too heavy and bloated. Everything must be lightening fast!"

    And extremely expensive. Since the customer is an Oracle shop, it found better to use 9iAS for the task. Of course the solution had to make use of features like Oracle iFS and Oracle Portal along with development, btw, done in Java. Again, I'm not stating that Oracle 9iAS is better than SharePoint portal server, they are different beasts, but for the circumstances was a better option for the customer. For each customer it's mileage may vary.


    Regards

    Javier
  32. Mono is coming up[ Go to top ]

    "we do not want to overload our server with transformation"
    Sounds like wise decision to me..

    It is not so very well know, but CSS2 selectors, pseudoclasses and declarations are very useful for to lay out XML on the screen. If you really want to change things around, XSLT are powerful, but on the other hand you could use Javascript/DOM for that, so all in all I would use CSS2 more, because its so much simpler (KISS).

    "If the application is intended to capture large amounts of data, like many former character based applications, I would prefer a more responsive and efficient presentation layer, than one based on HTML"

    If he wishes to fill up a combo box with 5000 records, I have to agree with him, but a lookup in the database over an Intranet net wont even take a second. OK there may be some cases when the old way is better but I assure you *in the majority of cases* the 6.x browsers are better. The big difference is that before it was most often we, the programmers the made the user interfaces, now they are done by professionals.

    With the browsers, you have more granular control over everything, everything takes more time to do, but you get quality. To be efficient you need to collect you own component (XUL/behavior) library.

    I have not tested Oracle Portal, but I have seen the Weblogic variant and its even more horrible that Sharepoint. I guess you can do poor programming in any language or maybe the problem is only that they want to do too much. It is trivial to make your own lightweight portal though.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  33. Enough already[ Go to top ]

    This thread is pathetic. We're all nothing more than victims of our environment; although a few have the luxury of choosing it more freely than the rest in these economic times. Anyway, how many of us Java loyalists would be bashing Microsoft if the only jobs out there paying top dollar were .Net?

    I'll admit, I'm a 5 year Java/J2EE zealot and wouldn't switch unless I had too. On the other hand, I was a Microsoft zealot for 6 years 5 years ago. Hmmm… may we live in interesting times, this horse is dead; let it rot…..


    cheers
  34. MS has only two profitable business areas (see above), everything else is loosing money. Draw your own conclusions.

    There was a similar discussion on Javalobby about a month ago, see response there
  35. Igor,

    There have been many versions of windows, and many versions of Office.

    Eventually the .NET Framework is going to replace Windows. "Windows for the Net". Conversion of the Office suite to .NET is underway, and MS is planning a whole new suite of business-application of which the CRM Net is the first.

    I wonder why so many are so eager to see Microsoft split up. No matter how many companies MS is split into, the problem (for Java/Unix/Oracle camp) will not go away.

    In fact that is the worst that could happen. The situation now is that the Java/Unix/Oracle world is "protected" from MS as they (MS) do not develop for Linux/Unix. If this situation to change, if MS develop for Linux/Unix, their products (Oracle and others)would be annilated totally. As it is now, their poor under par products have a room, and they can play "Computer Scientists"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  36. Rolf,

    Do you think that with the many Java developers in the world who already use a stable, mature, fast, always-improving easy-to-develop environment, that they would go running to a microsoft product just because they can all-of-a-sudden develop on unix? Like you, Rolf - I have an artistic sense and that's one of the reasons I love Java. I personally don't have the love for MS development tools that others have. In fact, I've had to debug someone else's VB code over the last few days. After having used IDEA, Eclipse, and even JDeveloper of late, I found the VB environment ponderous, inelegant, and certainly not as productive. The new development tools will have to be extravagantly better, which I doubt. I for one, am not sitting around waiting for MS products to be able to run on Unix.

    Rolf, one rumour I have heard is that ecommerce applications built with Mono will still be tied to Microsft's Passport. Is this true? If this is true, I can certainly see why MS would be behind the effort.

    Why do you think that the many, many companies who prefer not to use Microsoft products on the server side will all of a sudden use MS products that are open source on the server side? What advantages would they have?


    Mono is not done yet. Yes it will be done. But it is a long way from being mature. 1.0, the last I read, will be theoretically ready towards the middle of the year. That's already after numerous delays. It will be a long time before any company goes to it en masse, if ever. Microsoft developers will of course. Companies that already have Java on the server side aren't sitting around ready to replace that work with .NET I can assure you. Steve Balmer or Gates will have to come out and say that they will actively support Mono and all such efforts by providing them with every nook and cranny of the specification from now until MS decides to go in a different direction. MS will do it as long as it is a benefit to them, when its not, they won't. It's a lot of work to sponsor OS projects, which is in essence what they have to do.


    Thanks
    Ray
  37. It never ceases to amaze how personally people take these technology issues. My development background is primarily in Java but for the last 4 months I have been about 50/50 between J2EE and .NET. The benefit of my experience? -

    I think they both suck in different and unique ways.... When I work in Java I find myself missing easy event interceptors, attributes and type enumerators and even operator overloading, and thank god I don't have to use Swing.... When I work in C# I am stunned by it's stupid reliance on kludgey COM+ app services for anything approaching enterprise applications and the lack of anything resembling a halfway decent persistence framework. Don't even get me started on the app design skills of VB programmers...

    All the people claiming that one is measurably better than the other are just mystifing to me.... Do you honestly believe that in 5 years anyone will care. The lack of decent programmers is a much bigger problem all around than the features of a couple of languages/platforms that will be totally unrecognizable within a couple of years. Stop arguing and go write some code.
  38. One of the most sensible points of this whole thread!
  39. Heh desktop os windoze and msoffice is only two products making money for M$

    I dont think I will use msoffice in linux I would rather use open office or star office,

    Bill Gates "aaaahhh I have fallen I cant get up"
  40. It's true that they both suck, but I think that the reason is common for both of them: you cannot shout at them 'DO THIS!'. Arghhh, you have to right code and debug it:-))
  41. "All the people claiming that one is measurably better than the other are just mystifing to me.... "

    I think it's possible to quantify the trade-offs. If you've got to make a choice based on different factors such as scalability, flexibility, performance, robustness, ease of development, etc., then do it. I've done several of these vendor and technology selections to set standards for Fortune 100 companies. Get a team together from across the IT division and figure it out together. Do benchmarks and prototypes if you need to. Talk to vendors. Come up with factors that are relevant at your company. After all, it is supposed to be computer _science_ not guess-work.

    "Do you honestly believe that in 5 years anyone will care"

    Seven years ago, I ran one of these evaluations for a Fortune 100 company and we concluded that Smalltalk and Unix-based C++ should be phased out and Java would be the new language standard. We could have been totally off the mark, but we weren't and I'd like to think it wasn't just dumb luck.

    As far as Microsoft vs. everyone else, one major factor is business viability. Has the vendor done it before? Microsoft has been trying to get into server-side (enterprise) computing for a very long time and they've never quite been able to pull it off no matter what their TV ads say. The .NET stuff is one more attempt.

    "Stop arguing and go write some code."

    This is very good advice. In this country it seems everyone has an opinion about everything. Nobody should be allowed to have an opinion, unless it is an _informed_ opinion.

    -Scott
  42. Microsoft afraid?[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    Must I remind you that it is .NET that are an Open ECMA and ISO standard
    </quote>

    Patently false. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what was and was not submitted to ECMA and ISO by MS. You obviously have been misled by whatever MS drone happened to catch your ear.

    Jim S.
  43. Microsoft afraid?[ Go to top ]

    Must I remind you that it is .NET that are an Open ECMA and ISO >standard with an open source implementation? (And don't say that >mono is immature and not finished and so on, it&#8217;s so boring. I >can assure you that it will be finished.)

     
    That's pretty funny. Your ignorance is showing!
  44. Truce[ Go to top ]

    Rolf

    There are bigots on both sides and a large body of people in the middle, using suitable technology to achieve user requirements and it's been like that since I started in the industry at the end of the sixties.

    All I wonder is why you seem to be so keen to be numbered amongst the bigots.
  45. Never make truce with a loosing enemy! I thought we learned that in WW1.
  46. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    We know Bill Gates takes no prisoners.


    Java has killed .Not.


    Linux will kill windows.
  47. Jamie,

    Sorry to remind you, but

    .NET has in its first year made the most successful debut in the history of computer languages.

    Specially suited for in large scale projects. 1st in all benchmarks.

    Java still has its place in smaller projects though, with JSP/Servlets. Only be careful to stay away from J2EE = convoluted nonsense.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud

    "People with that attitude and such language can never be right"
  48. Being right[ Go to top ]

    By the way, Rolf,

    people with any attitude and any kind of language can be right. Even you..

    //ras
  49. Flem Bait[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "Sorry to remind you, but ..."

    People who talk like that can never be right.

    Rolf: ".NET has in its first year made the most successful debut in the history of computer languages."

    Success is measured by metrics. Please define your metrics.

    In terms of adoption by a percentage of the industry, my understanding is that Java still has the fastest level of adoption for any modern computer language, unless you are counting C# as Java (which would be understandable, except for the two bits that are different).

    Rolf: "Specially suited for in large scale projects."

    This nonsense needs to stop. Very few things are "specially suited for large scale projects". Very few Java tools are, and I guarantee that Microsoft's "visual studio" tools are not.

    As for being "almost acceptable" for large projects, I am sure that with the correct discipline and a good architect, you could build a large scale project in either. Last I checked, "almost acceptable" != "specially suited".

    Rolf: "1st in all benchmarks."

    No independent benchmark has shown .NET ahead. Most (not all) of the benchmarks I and others have run have shown .NET losing; (please note that I am not "independent" and I have pointed out how pointless the performance difference is anyway, as you would pick neither Java nor .NET if performance mattered that much, and the performance of Java and .NET is typically within 10-15%, so either is fine from a business application performance point of view).

    Companies aren't picking J2EE over .NET just because Java is faster. They also have good business reasons.

    Rolf: "Java still has its place in smaller projects though"

    Can Gartner quote you on that?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  50. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    Rolf, you are a crack smoker. You sound like you come straight out of the Microsoft marketing department, with your wonderful propensity to make stuff up.

    Even Microsoft's marketing department is turning cartwheels renaming .NET servers to anything that might not look like it's failing. Eventually you'll have to face the fact that .NET is the new Ada, but instead of a governmentally subsidized language, they subsidize a whole company.

    Steve
  51. .NET Magazine says: Time for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    <.NET has in its first year made the most successful debut in the history of computer languages. >

    Ha Ha Ha, this one got me...
  52. The Magazine Asks for a Truce[ Go to top ]

    Its the magazine that is asking for a truce, not Microsoft. The editor makes a wild assumption that its going to be a stalemate, and therefore a truce is needed.