Siebel Systems said yesterday that it had signed a $300 million deal to port its CRM programs to run on J2EE on Websphere, instead of its own homegrown solution. Siebel apps will natively support J2EE and Web Services running on WebSphere AppServer and WebSphere Portal Server. Siebel tools will be integrated with WebSphere Studio.
Siebel, IBM Broaden CRM Alliance
Siebel to Move to IBM Technology Platform
If they do it on Websphere, will the support for other app servers be far away?
I think it's good for J2EE in general. I can see it becoming a full platform for running server based apps.
We can soon see a JSR for CRM on J2EE app servers so the CRM applications is portable across different app servers.
What do you want to call this spec?
I've been working on Siebel CRM application since 5 years. It is a great application with a lot of functionality. But, what I hate about the Siebel Architecture is its Application Server layer. Its Server Administration is very much home grown and is not well designed. If they successfully port apps to J2EE compliant container, it will remain the king of CRM apps.
I've heard that they are milking IBM for resources for the port, but are sticking to J2EE and will be supporting WebLogic and possible others. IBM brings huge resources, so you can't blame them, but I don't think it's exclusive.
Now you pay IBM and Siebel. Oh joy!
Perhaps WebSphere will be bundled with the Siebel Application. Peoplesoft uses BEA's Tuxedo Transaction server. I think customers will not be paying to both IBM and Siebel. If that is the case what is the point paying top $$$ to Packaged Apps vendor.
Essentially yes.. IBM lets you re-package WebSphere as part of your software and deploy it with a much lower cost than just buying an application server for general use. So the incremental cost to a Siebel customer is probably going to be negligable, especially when compared to the cost of the software itself and the professional services to support it.
But the complexity of the system is quadrupled. The Siebel system is already too large, heavyweight and complex. Some people in the management quit and started Salesforce which have been very successful and is running on Resin, by the way. And Webshpere, I am sure everybody in TSS knows about Webshpere. As one member put it (in rather bad taste I admit):
Is it ethical to let companies just blindly walk into the gas chambers of websphere?
Is it good for anyone or any company if they waste money on such an inefficient kludge as Websphere is ( 300 products and $11 spent on services for every dollar on product -per IBMs own study!)
It is because of "products" like websphere that gives the whole industry a bad reputation and makes consulting a scam rather than a honorable profession.
As far as ethics goes, "Intentional negligence" that leads to harm is no different than "Intent to harm".
"You can obviously fool some of the people some of the time"
It is bad enough that you are using another persons misinformation to back up your own biased opinion and misinformation, but you chose a comment that offended many people when originally posted because of the gas chamber reference.
The companies choosing WebSphere do so after a comprehensive evaluation that almost always includes performance & usability testing as well as an analysis of the product architecture and future plans. And this is done in a comparison to other leading J2EE servers as well as to .Net. The J2EE competition is the toughest because there are many high quality J2EE application servers for customers to choose from. We don't win them all, but we win many.
Your ending quote "You can obviously fool some of the people some of the time" is quite ironic.
I work for IBM, but the opinions expressed are my own.
I visited Salesforce.com back in '99 and I don't remember any of them being from Siebel. Marc and Jim were both from Oracle.
It's not surprising that Siebel chose J2EE. Most of their customers will require that the software runs on fault tolerant Unix hardware, and .NET will likely never support that. So far, only Rolf and Microsoft have chosen .NET for their hosted CRM products.
BTW - Salesforce.com runs on Resin. Their "temporarily offline" (local pseudo-fat client for Windows) uses some .NET components behind it I think.
: Easily share live data across a cluster!
Marc Benioff, 35 was an initial backer of Siebel Systems Inc and has pocketed more than $20 million from that 1993 investment.
Salesforce off-line product is browser-based, they are *planning* a .NET off-line version, which is a different story.
"Rolf", yours truly, doesn't have a have a hosted CRM product.
.NET (aka Mono) will run on "fault tolerant Unix hardware" (my god..) before you know it.
A complicated enterprise application like Siebel run on top of J2EE - will be fun to see! I'm waiting.
Rolf [before]: "Some people in the management quit and started Salesforce"
Rolf [after]: "Marc Benioff, 35 was an initial backer of Siebel Systems Inc and has pocketed more than $20 million from that 1993 investment."
OK, which is it? I give up.
: Easily share live data across a cluster!
| .NET (aka Mono) will run on "fault tolerant Unix hardware"
| (my god..) before you know it.
I really think this is a pipe dream. We only have to remember the enthusiasm that surrounded plans to port ASP and DCOM to Unix...
For all the talk about ECMA standards, the conspicuous parts of .net that are absent from the standard are such things as Enterprise Services (they could be useful - who knows). Any vendor/OSS project trying to do a non-toy .net implmentation will be chasing Microsoft around in circles trying to achieve any form of compatibility with their Win.net implementation.
The ONLY way I think any of these "other platform" .net implementations are going to succeed, is if Micrsoft actually whole-heartedly backs them. And when Microsoft "back" something, that usually means they hop into it, two feet and teeth. This would obviously mean that they would be actively pursuing the Linux market - something I seriously doubt. The only viable .Net platform will be Windows.
Until then, all the Microsoft hopefuls will be trying to sway opinion with this "but .net WILL run on unix... just you wait and see... someday..." argument.
Wouldn't it be more honest of you to say: "I hope .NET will not run on Unix, or: I pray to God that .NET will not run on Unix?
I shall be merciful! I will not dig up all that were said about .NET here in TSS one year ago and compare to the present situation (archives are a wonderful thing.)
But have you read the other thread about the JCP Fact Based Analysis?
This is the situation now in spite of that .NET exist! Can you imagine what stand Sun would have taken otherwise? Cold shivers go through my bones.
In order to embrace J2EE, Siebel have choices between Sun (financial turmoil, Sun ONE survival question), BEA (will be taken over), IBM (financially strong, biggest consulting Service org, Linux, Websphere platform etc.) and other small fishes. It does not require rocket science to choose a good business partner. I think Siebel made a smart move here. Also, if one carefully read the press release it says very clearly that Siebel is free to partner with other J2EE vendors too. Lets wait and see how Siebel is going to execute this one...
This must be an act of desperation to try to protect them from the new Microsoft CRM. And why only WebSphere? I thought that when you build J2EE components you making yourselves vendor independent (contrary to .NET!).
On the other hand that was what ATG decided to do ago with Dynamo. Breaking it up in components that could be used by different J2EE app servers. Is there anybody who knows anything of how its going for this business idea?
"Difference between illusions and reality"
This must be an act of desperation to try to protect them
> from the new Microsoft CRM.
Yeah, Microsoft (or should we say Great Plains?) CRM is REALLY targeting the same audience as Siebel...
"or should we say Great Plains?"
This is completly new software, developed by Microsoft.
"is REALLY targeting the same audience as Siebel"
In a word, yes.
I find you really entertaining...