Discussions

News: Announcing IronGrid IronEye SQL Performance Analysis Tool

  1. IronEye SQL is a performance analysis tool that transparently (no code changes required) exposes and times all of the SQL being generated by an application (behind plain JDBC, O/R mapping tools, EJB, etc) for the purposes of identifying and excessive or long running SQL statements.

    Check out IronEye SQL.


    Press Release
    -------------------
    IronGrid introduces a program to allow a 30-day free trial period and introductory pricing of $195 for their tool, IronEye SQL. By allowing developers to see tables and graphs of the performance of all SQL that flows between an application server and a database, IronEye SQL enables smarter tuning.

    With IronEye SQL, developers can look at a consolidated graph of all of the different SQL statements that flow over one or more JDBC drivers, quickly identifying the statements that take the longest to prepare or execute. Users can view all SQL statements, sorted by a variety of criteria, or view based on a user-specified filter. Based on the popular, patented P6Spy open source framework, IronEye SQL works by building a virtual JDBC driver for each data source.
     
    IronGrid is a new company that specializes in low cost tools that help developers build faster applications. Their tools support a practice called continuous performance. Like continuous integration, continuous performance is an extreme programming extension that favors performance testing throughout the entire lifecycle of an application.

    Threaded Messages (67)

  2. Sounds interesting[ Go to top ]

    This sounds like an interesting product, and I might just download it and try it out.
    I have two points that I feel should be made, however:

    1) In order for IronGrid to be taken seriously by C level executives, it should have a section on its website where it tells the public more about the history of this company (is it even a company? I don't know...). As it stands now, all I know about IronGrid is that there is a nice enough looking guy with 5:00 shadow sitting at a messy desk, eating a bowl of soup who seems to make the IronGrid software (see www.irongrid.com).

    2) There should be more said about how IronGrid is a better choice than its competitors.

    Otherwise, this product sounds very interesting, and I'm sure that the developers who made it have some wonderful talent.

    -Scott
  3. JDBInsight - Superior[ Go to top ]

    Scott,

    Wow, thats a great review of a product with only a single screen. I would really like to hear your review of JDBInsight and the talent of its developer - ;-).

    JDBInsight is probably one of most effective J2EE performance and testing product as well as looking cool - of course I would say that.


    William Louth
    Product Architect
    Inspired
  4. OK[ Go to top ]

    Hi William,

        I took a look at your website (I actually looked at more than one screen this time, since you didn't have a picture of yourself eating soup) and these are my face-value observations:

    1. Your credentials are impressive. Your competancy does not seem to be in question.

    2. Your tool seems to provide a necessary service, but as with IronGrid, I feel that you should provide more details as to how your tool measures up to the competition. When you say, "...Unlike other performance profiling tools, JDBInsight not only captures the method execution path (within the JDBC API), but also the data passed between methods...", could you please be more specific as to which tools do not do this?

    3) Performance testing, especially in the enterprise arena, cannot be analyzed within a single component. Performance testing needs to encompass every layer of the enterprise architecture. This is only my opinion, and I would like to hear your response on this; but I see IronGrid and JDBInsight as really effective tools for *component testing* only. Any mention of how analysis from these tools can be used to provide information on overall tuning of the enterprise is therefore incorrect, and I don't believe that these tools should be marketed in this light.

    I'm not saying that the big QA companies (Mercury, Rational, etc) have got the complete solution either. I'm just saying that I see JDBInsight and IronGrid only as a piece to a much larger puzzle.

    PS: I would personally love to see more tools such as JDBInsight and IronGrid become compatible with the big QA company tools.

    ~Scott
  5. The Future[ Go to top ]

    Hi Scott,

    I have just come back from working with a bank who is using JDBInsight to help determine their performance across 5+ projects. A **** single ***** JDBInsight console is contected to all server machines each running websphere 3.5 and 4.x instances (multiple clones on each machine). Nearly each system is accessing more than one database. From within the console the developers, testers and database adminstrators can see the database traffic at various levels (server machine, database and jvm process). If this is not enterprise tuning and testing I do not know what is.

    Of course the current product does not provide everything it is focused on the biggest bottleneck and also the most troublesome for testers. That focus makes the product superior. There are many other Java performance related products on the market but I have not seen one that has effectively shown resource transactions. Borland's ServerTrace can show a call trace but does not tie together calls in a JDBC transaction. The same applies to other products such as PerformaSure and Wily though I suspect that in their last releases they have tried to put this in place. I am not knocking these products they provide a wealth of information in other areas - its just that I find sometimes its more data than real info and when it is info I cannot see it to make a proper recommendation. Each of these products costs at least 20,000. So you pay 19,000 more for additional info on less than 20% of bottlenecks.

    I have a good supporter within a large appserver vendor'S (NOT BORLAND) stress testing team that thinks 'JDBInsight is so far ahead of the competition is not funny anymore'.

    The next release of JDBInsight 1.5 I believe (I hope) will ensure that Inspired is regarded as a worthy supplier of tuning and testing tools for J2EE. I cannot give too much details but I can ensure you that our Java code and component visualizations will not be matched (well, for the next 6 months anyway as the competition catches up). Following that release we will be announcing a new product that will provide analysis of JMS, JCA, JSP/Servlets components.

    Regards,

    William Louth
    Product Architect
    Inspired
  6. That is NOT enterprise testing[ Go to top ]

    William,

         Both IronGrid IronEye and JDBInsight are NOT enterprise testing tools.

         Enterprise testing tools are products that analyze, work with, and have visual interfaces and statistical analysis for ALL components in your architecture. For example, using LoadRunner from Mercury Interactive, a tester can see how an entire *business process*, such as buying a product or navigating a website, affects all components of the enterprise. LoadRunner provides for not only transaction response time measurements, but it also allows users to plug in monitors that will provide measurements of certain components during the test. And then LoadRunner ties it all together nicely in one big interface which is very easy to understand.
        JDBInsight and IronGrid qualify as one of the monitors that an enterprise-testing tool like LoadRunner would use, they are not the tool themselves. It is not enough to say "Well we optimized your SQL, so our job here is done". Database connectivity and activity, while *extremely important* factors in performance, are only one aspect of enterprise testing. After testing the database, you will need to look at network latency, website concurrency issues, threading issues, memory and CPU factors, real life think time issues, etc etc.
        I am not trying to knock your tool or IronGrid's tool. I am merely pointing out where these products belong in the Quality Analysis world. These tools are excellent MONITORS, and I would love to see them incorporated by the enterprise-testing tool market.

    ~Scott
  7. Scott, you are right in that IronEye SQL is not in and of itself an Enterprise testing tool by your definition. But neither do we, nor will we ever, charge the many thousands (often tens of thousands) of dollars that Mercury charges for their products. Our approach is totally different. We do not sell Enterprise software, and do not intend to take on the Mercury's head-to-head. We sell affordable tools. What you will see over time is IronGrid releasing tools that are useful in and of themselves, but "snap together" to create a suite. The end result might be a suite that provides much of what a Mercury does, but the total dollar amount of the tools added together will be an order of magnitude (possibly two) less than a Mercury solution.

    Also keep in mind that IronEye SQL is useful within the context of any Java JDBC application, not strictly within the J2EE environment. Though it certainly is VERY useful there.

    However, please do NOT get the impression that IronGrid is just going to provide monitoring or profiling solutions. We also have our sights on products that enhance (accelerate) the performance of applications (incl. J2EE stacks). We see the Java-space, not just the J2EE-space, as our domain. The common theme across all of our products is "performance".
  8. That is NOT enterprise testing[ Go to top ]

    Hi Scott,

    I think it depends on the context (phase) to the testing process. You are referring to scalability and reliability testing. JDBInsight 1.2 is used for testing and tuning enterprise applications at persistence code -> database layer.

    I agree that JDBInsight compliments LoadRunner and WebLoad. In fact the bank was using LoadRunner during the stress testing phase. JDBInsight was then used to determine how the load was spread across 4 Websphere servers and how the SQL statements performed under real world conditions - poor SQL appears during high levels of concurrency thats why JDBInsight 1.2 has the lowest overhead on the market. During ECperf tests I have witnessed approx. 1-2% overhead - but this all depends on the application under testing as well as the load.

    JDBInsight 1.5 will have a slight increase in overhead but thats because it will provide more contextual information: life is all about tradeoffs.

    Regards,

    William
  9. Scott,
    I totally agree with you that IronEye SQL is not an enterprise testing tool. We never claimed to be one and (so far) we don't have plans to deliver enterprise testing tools. After many years implementing enterprise solutions at BMC Software and Covasoft, I understood right away that IronGrid's approach was different. Our product strategy is to provide simple, low-cost cost and intelligent tools that address a specific problem and bring immediate value to Java/J2EE developers.

    We have already defined a product strategy to deliver a series of products to help developers enhance the performance of their applications. These products will provide direct insight into various aspects of programming large J2EE applications. However we will maintain an open mind and listen to requests from the Java/J2EE community.

    We also understand that low cost tools require the same level of quality, documentation and technical support that customers should expect from any tool vendor. As such we are creating a company with the right infrastructure to deliver quality products and provide great technical support our customers.

    Keep an eye on us.

    cody
  10. Thanks[ Go to top ]

    Cody,

       Thank you for your direct comments, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss with us. Your comment:

    ---We also understand that low cost tools require the same level of quality, documentation and technical support that customers should expect from any tool vendor. As such we are creating a company with the right infrastructure to deliver quality products and provide great technical support our customers---
     
       indicates exactly the direction I was heading in my previous posting to Brett. Could you elaborate how you plan on growing your company if you are going to have such a low-cost product? I would like to know what IronGrid knows that companies like Mercury, BMC, Rational, and Compuware don't when it comes to the economics of supporting this kind of product for the long term.

    Thanks,

    ~Scott.
  11. Re: business model[ Go to top ]

    Scott,

    I just got back from some meetings (please don't send me back to my kitchen!). and noticed that this thread has badly degenerated to the absurd. However you had asked a valid question that I believe should be answered.
     
    >> Could you elaborate how you plan on growing your company if you are going >> to have such a low-cost product?

    You asked that same question in a different message :

    >>I still await for a reply concerning the business model and economic
    >> viability of IronGrid with respect to the low price of their product.
    >> How does IronGrid expect to achieve longevity with this model?

    You also wrote in reply to Brett :
    >> To get where Mercury is, you have to charge top dollar and make it worth it.

    We would love to be like Mercury or BMC or Ratinale when we grow up. But we would have to be crazy to think that we can replace these companies or go after their market share. Nonetheless. it is a big pond where large and small fish can coexist and find relative success. By solving the right problems and providing good customer value, we will claim our fair share to provide a good return for our investors and our employees.

    There are many strategies for pricing and selling products. Most software is sold using a value based model - garner as much as you can of your customer's perceived (actual measured sometimes) value of your product. Many fewer software products are sold on a cost based model, which is what much of the direct marketing world is based on. To be successful with this approach you need to understand your costs, and ensure you have an efficient cost structure on which to build your business. This is IronGrid. There are three major drivers of the cost of a product. 1) Product Development 2) Sales and Marketing and 3)Ongoing customer support. In that order:

    1. Product Development - we have no overhead of legacy code or organization. We have small, very strong product development teams. We work on short development cycles. We use continuous integration and performance to keep development costs low and quality high. We keep our tools simple, while still solving a critical problem. This keeps the up-front cost of building our company low.

    2. Sales and Marketing - we are a product-driven direct marketing company. As such, we avoid much of the significant sales overhead of a traditional enterprise software company. We get our products in front of our customers efficiently, and then let the product prove it's own value. We focus on delivery, not sales hype. This keeps the cost of building our customer community low.

    3. Customer Support - by making our tools high quality, simple and intuitive, we make life easy on our customers, and on ourselves. Self-help support in documentation, and our site, low training costs, less customer calls, less complexity results in much lower on-going support costs.

    The combination of these three elements give us a cost structure which looks different than a traditional enterprise software company, allows us to sell products at low-pain prices, and earn a profit so we are around for the long-haul to support our customers and build our business. We have the experience and the know-how to create a company with smart people who can deliver high quality products quickly, get them on the desktops of developers efficiently and support them economically. That is what we are all about.

    Regards,

    cody
  12. Re: Thanks[ Go to top ]

    Scott,
      I never meant to impune Mercury's products. They are great products and worth every cent. However, there are many (many) organizations -- small and medium sized businesses, consultants, etc. they can't affort Mercury's pricing.
      In answering your query to Cody (he had to go to Houston), there are many companies who make money selling tools. Granted, many of these companies get acquired, but that's not a bad exit at all. JProbe is an example, as are Symantec and Norton Utilities (there really are too many to list). Not everybody sells "Enterprise" software. Adobe is another example. Anyway, time will tell whether we can make it. Our success or failure is mostly in our hands. If we can deliver quality tools at a price-point that generates some volume, I think we will.
  13. Thanks[ Go to top ]

    Brett and Cody,

        Those are good answers to the question I posed. I feel that IronGrid and other products like it can make an impact in the concentrated markets mentioned.
        And you're right, there's absolutely nothing wrong with becoming acquired by a bigger fish, it's actually a testament to the quality of the product.
        Thank you all for the insight into your organization. You should all be very excited to be working in this blossoming market of QA. It will soon become a much bigger focus than it is now, especially with the increasing usage of message-based systems (Web Services, etc) that while very efficient in its usage of standard formats, are big performance issues that need to be considered.
         Good luck in the future!!

    ~Scott/Larry ;-)
  14. IronGrid - Who are we?[ Go to top ]

    Hey Scott!

    Your comments are definitely valid and we will try and get more up on our site in the next few days to address your points. We are trying not to "toot our own horn" too much early on, avoid hype, and would rather let our products speak for themselves. In the meantime, I will briefly address both your questions:

    1) WHO'S BEHIND IRONGRID:
    Our CTO, Cody, has over 22 years of experience, in design and engineering, software development and system integration. He was CTO and Founder of Covasoft. Prior to Covasoft, he was R&D Director and Development Manager at BMC Software where he was responsible for creating the application management market by delivering SAP R/3, Baan, PeopleSoft and Oracle PATROL knowledge modules. Cody began his career at AT&T Bell Labs (now a division of Lucent) in Murray Hill, NJ, where he spent thirteen years in various AT&T divisions including the Microsystems division, CAD framework and integration division and AT&T Network Systems IT division.

    Our Lead Developers who build IronEye SQL, Jeff & Alan, are the main technical guys behind the open source project, www.p6spy.com. P6Spy has been in the marketplace for over 2 years (over 10,000) downloads and many of the new features found in IronEye SQL are a result of all the feedback we received from the Open Source community on what they wanted to see added to P6Spy.

    Our CEO, Cliff was CEO & Founder of Garden.com, Inc. from 1995 to 2000. Prior to Garden.com, He worked as a Senior Associate with Coopers & Lybrand Consulting’s (CLC) Technology Advisory Services practice in San Francisco, California. Cliff holds a Masters in Management from the J. L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a BS in Information Systems from Carnegie Mellon University. He also serves on the Board of Directors for the Wharton School’s SEI Center for Advanced Studies in Management.

    Our CFO, Jamie co-founded Garden.com and served as Chief Operating Officer. Prior to Garden.com, He worked in Business Development for top management at W.W. Grainger, Inc. Jamie began his career as a Research Analyst at the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System in Washington, D.C., where his research focused on the banking industry. He holds a Masters in Management from the J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a BA in Economics from the University of Wisconsin.

    I am VP of Marketing and was the third founder of Garden.com. Prior to Garden, I spent time in Product Marketing and Channel Management at Silicon Graphics and in Product Marketing at Sun Microsystems. I also have an MBA from Kellogg and B.A. degree in Biochemistry from Bowdoin College.

    None of us are the "soup guy"...he is just clip art because we didn't want to spend money on expensive photos. You are not the first one to think he is dorky so clearly we need to switch him out ASAP :)

    2) WHY ARE WE BETTER THAN THE COMPETITION?
    15-minute install
    inexpensive
    simple
    no source code changes needed!

    Our goal is to continue to build simple, inexpensive tools that solve real problems today and make the life of a java developer a little bit easier. We plan do what the expensive tool suites do for a fraction of the price so that companies can afford to buy 10 licenses for all their developers instead of just 1 all developers are forced to share.

    Any additional thoughts you have as you check out our new product would be greatly appreciated! Send them directly to me: lisa at irongrid dot com

    Lisa
  15. Thank you[ Go to top ]

    Lisa,

        I will certainly take you up on your offer once I get to know your product better. Thank you very much for the information you have provided, it sounds like IronGrid has some very good management experience, and that you are a young company just hitting the scene, so to speak. I wish you all the very best in the future!
        One note: Since your CTO was once employed for BMC, more particularly the Patrol product, I am sure that you all know that most of the "Big-Co" accounts are not going to settle for a product whose only strength lies in the testing and tuning of a single component. I asked this question to William of JDBInsight, and I'll ask the same of you: Are you targeting the component testing market, or do you plan on making a case that your tools should supersede that of a BMC, Mercury Interactive, Rational, etc?
        Just curious, as I see these companies as being complementary to your product, not as competitors. I am an experienced user with Mercury tools, so obviously my bias is edging towards good component testing tools to be able to integrate with a LoadRunner-type product.
        As enterprise applications become increasingly complex, it is getting easier and easier for the BMC, Mercury's, and Rationals of the world to beat out companies like Precise, SiteScope (until they were acqquired by Mercury), and now IronGrid and JDBInsight when it comes to selling the concept of total quality analysis.
        Can you give us some more insight as to the direction your company is headed? Thanks once again for your time,

    ~Scott
  16. Oh and another thing[ Go to top ]

    Oh, and thanks for being a good sport about the Soup Boy statement! It's refreshing to hear from somebody who doesn't fly off the handle due to a little criticism, especially on this message board!

    Class act,

    ~Scott
  17. IronGrid - Where are we headed?[ Go to top ]

    Hey Scott!

    You definitely bring up some very good questions. We are still in a bit of a "heads down" mode given the early stage of our product line, but let me expand a bit on IronGrid's direction.

    After the acceptance of P6Spy by Java developers, we were convinced that there is a need for simple component testing tools. We started IronGrid with the philosophy of providing good point tools that will help developers tackle performance problems throughout the development process.

    IronEye SQL is our first product. Very soon (end of March/beginning of April) we will introduce IronEye Cache to help developers simulate the right caching model to optimize database access performance. In the future, we plan on delivering additional point products aimed at different aspects of testing and tuning the performance of large Java/J2EE applications. As IronEye SQL and Cache are focusing on database access optimization, these other products will serve to enhance the performance of J2EE components like servlets, EJBs and minimize their impact on the performance of the underlying JVM.

    Our overall strategy is focused on what we are calling the "Continuous Performance" process, a concept derived from Extreme Programming and Continuous Integration (watch our web site, www.irongrid.com, for a white paper on the concept in the next week.) Similar to the way quality is focused on early in the development process, we want to provide developers with the right tools to help them include performance testing on various product components very early in and throughout the development cycle.

    We do not intend to replace or compete with the big guys in the performance market like BMC, Mercury Interactive or Rational. Instead we want to build products that can coexist with their solutions. We intend to provide an integration mechanism that will allow all our tools to share data with performance management products from BMC or Tivoli and with load testing tools from Mercury Interactive.

    Hope this gives you a little better feel for what we are up to at IronGrid and I would be happy to elaborate on anything that still seems vague...after all, I am the marketing person :)

    Lisa
  18. Interesting discussion[ Go to top ]

    I've done a little work for them, but nothing major, so take these comments for what they are worth. I'll keep promoting their stuff indefinitely, because they've got the right idea. I've seen a whole lot of start ups in Austin from the inside and out. IronGrid is interesting to me for three reasons.

    1) They're a start up that seems to understand how to take a crack at it in this market. They're thinking about a pricing model in a time that it's hard to secure budget, thus they build bite-sized, expensible tools. Their burn rate is low, and they are trying to make a grass-roots market happen.

    2) They lean on open-source to get leverage. The p6spy stuff is slick. They can point to a code base behind their product that has a real history.

    3) They continue to build tools with a laser focus. I disagree that a performance tool has to do everything well. IronEye lets you see an agregated view of the worst performing SQL that flows through your system, without software changes. That allows you to get a performance snapshot much earlier in the development cycle, which I think is a critical concept. IronGrid calls the concept Continuous Performance, because like integration, you must concentrate on performance throughout the development cycle or you'll catch the major problems too late, when they're far too expensive to solve. IronGrid's first tool, and their second, solve tactical problems inexpensively.

    Bravo, IronGrid.
  19. Bad track record[ Go to top ]

    sounds nice, but the CEO is Lisa's husband/brother/son/cousin or something. Check it out,note the last name of the ceo

    ---I deeply regret that Garden.com is unable to see through the vision we started nearly five years ago," said president and chief executive officer Cliff Sharples. "We believe a phased shutdown of the company's consumer business operations, as well as our continued efforts to maximize the company's technology assets, serve as the best course of action in light of our current situation.---

    irongrid is just the techies from garden.com all over again. the reason they are so into this open-source business is because they dont need to worry about money. they made tons o' cash during garden.com ipo!!!! so this time, people should avoid them because they're _not_ doing it for the money. how weird is that. how ironic.
  20. Don't know about that. Judge IronGrid by the technology and the business model. What do you think of the tool?
  21. IronGrid Management Team[ Go to top ]

    It is true that some of the founders of IronGrid were founders of Garden.com. You'll also noticed that our co-founder and CTO, Cody, founded Covasoft and was formerly at BMC and Bell Labs. There are other members of the IronGrid team with varying backgrounds in software development.

    For the record, yes, Cliff and I are married....a 5 second search on Google would have told you that....further research would have taught you that nobody cashed out of Garden.com, including the founders.

    After Garden.com, several of us got together and developed a technology, based on the years we had been developing web applications. After patenting this technology, we thought it would be cool to create an open source project and developed P6Spy (www.p6spy.com) As a team we have been collectively developing web-based applications for over a decade and we are definily passionate about the technology, which is why we founded IronGrid.

    If you want to evaluate the technical competence of the IronGrid team, download our new Java dev tool, IronEye SQL, from www.irongrid.com and check it out. We think it is very useful and we would love any feedback The Server Side Community has to offer! You can e-mail me directly at lisa at irongrid dot com.
  22. Patent What?[ Go to top ]

    Lisa,

    Could you please provide information on what you regard as patented technology. This seems to be touted alot on your website regarding P6Spy but I have yet to see any grounds for a patent.

    Wrapping around JDBC drivers is not patentable. All appservers do this for resource management and monitoring. In fact Visigenic did this in its ITS products many, many years back (well before garden.com). They had a similiar URL rewriting mechanism as that found in P6Spy.

    Could you provide your patent filing number.

    Regards,

    William
  23. Patent Numbers[ Go to top ]

    William,

    There are two patent applications covering the underlying the technology of IronEye SQL and our upcoming product, IronEye Cache, patents #20020091712 and #20020143764. These patents specifically address Database Caching and Data Management. Feel free to read the full patent description online.

    Lisa
  24. More detail on IronGrid Patents[ Go to top ]

    Gang,

    Here is a little more detail on our patents that I referenced in my previous post. You can see the patent applications on uspto.gov and again, the patent application numbers are #20020091712 and #20020143764. These patents include a total of 74 claims. We spent a great deal of time with our lawyers researching these patents before they were filed.

    The first pending patent includes specific claims around the concept of a “virtual driver”. The innovation around this claim is the idea of introducing a virtual driver that can intercept and optionally modify data flowing through the system. We further detail specific use of this technology in later claims and in the second patent, including the ability to provide seamless performance monitoring, caching and database versioning through this virtual driver.

    The second patent gets into some further innovations, including the idea of providing a set of functionality through the virtual driver (stacking). In other words, this allows us to provide caching, monitoring, database versioning, and other applications through the virtual driver in a seamless manner to the end user.

    This, of course, just scratches the surface of what we filed, and is not a technical or legal review, but hopefully helps clarify some of what we have patented. You can take a look yourself, and you can even buy the full patent application from uspto.gov.

    Hopefully this clearly outlines for you the technology behind IronGrid products and we hope now The Server Side community will log onto www.riongrid.com and take IronEye SQL for a test drive.

    Lisa
  25. More detail on IronGrid Patents[ Go to top ]

    Here is a little more detail on our patents that I referenced in my previous post. You can see the patent applications on uspto.gov and again, the patent application numbers are #20020091712 and #20020143764. These patents include a total of 74 claims. We spent a great deal of time with our lawyers researching these patents before they were filed.

    Can you give a URL? This is all I could find:

    Results of Search in 1790-2003 db for: PN/20020091712: 0 patents.

    The first pending patent includes specific claims around the concept of a “virtual driver”. The innovation around this claim is the idea of introducing a virtual driver that can intercept and optionally modify data flowing through the system.

    What about the existence of prior art? Virtual JDBC drivers have been around pretty much as long as JDBC has.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  26. More detail on IronGrid Patents[ Go to top ]

    Hi Cameron,

    You can view the patent applications on uspto.gov at http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html the patent application numbers are 20020091712 and 20020143764.

    Please feel free to e-mail me directly at lisa at irongrid dot com with any further questions.

    Peace!

    Lisa
  27. You can view the patent applications on uspto.gov at http:/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html the patent application numbers are 20020091712 and 20020143764.

    Both patents refer to common techniques (virtual JDBC drivers with caching, JDBC call interceptors) which are in use a long time. For example, Isocra's LiveStore uses it and I guess there are many app servers using this techniques too. Of course, it collided with JDBInsight as well which is on the market since more than a year (or longer?). It even collided with AOP programming techniques where any calls can be intercepted, including JDBC.

    -- Andreas
  28. Patents are Invalid !!!!![ Go to top ]

    Hi Lisa,

    I would hope that you can put aside all the little games your development team has played on this thread and at least agree that your patents are invalid:

    - JDBInsight First Demo in April 2000 (yes 2000 and not 2002 which is your patent filing date). The product was called JDBCAgent at that time.

    - Every single appserver on the market has used a proxy driver (do you own the Proxy/Interceptor pattern in relation to databases) NetDynamics 3.11 if I recall correctly (back in 1996) had a similiar technique

    - Velocitop www.velocitop.com has had a oracle JDBC virtual driver with caching from early 2002 (again before you filing)

    I routinely read the ACM Communications journal and do recall an article on the silliness of some patent filings. At the time I just laughed and could not believe what people had tried to get away with but NOW I AM NOT. Its not funny anymore.

    I wish your "talented" bunch of developers would compet on product implementation and not on how silly they look (website) and act and how many times they rewrite their code. I cannot help laughing at some of your marketing. I recently read that P6Spy was giving a complete overhaul and within the same sentence you stated that is was reliable because it had been on the market for 6 months.

    Regards,

    William
  29. My Comments...[ Go to top ]

    Boys -

    Let me address your allegations that IronGrid folks are "playing games" with this thread...you keep mentioning it but I am not sure what you are talking about:

    Contributors to this thread:
    1) Andreas
    2) William
        (we obviously know who you two are at this point but William, if you feel the need to add "William Louth, Product Architect, Inspired" one more time to your signature to make sure we don't forget than go for it!)

    3) Scott McNealy/Larry Ellison
         (no idea who this is but it is evident by the postings that Scott/Larry along with Andreas have had conversations on other threads on Server Side..seems like Scott/Larry is a "regular" on this site...In fact if you look back at Scott/Larry's first few postings on this thread, he was ragging on IronGrid and liking Inspired better....then I think he got turned off by the rude behavior of William & Andreas and it deteriorated from there)

    4) Lisa Sharples
    5) Brent Woolridge
    6) Cody Menard
    7) Jeff Goke
         (P6Spy and IronGrid Representatives who never stated they were anything other than IronGrid Folks)

    8) Darwin Silver
    9) Ryan Drake
    10)Colon Keethya
         (three folks that each posted one comment and then were probably scared off by the level of juvenile behavior on this thread.)

    11) Cameron Purdy
         (who clearly identified himself and was by far the most polite person on this thread! Thank you Cameron!)

    12) Bruce Tate
         (who works for Server Side)
     
    In addition, if you look at the number of postings each person has created, Andreas and William are in first place with 20 total postings while the IronGrid/P6Spy reps have a total of 14 (and there are twice as many of us).

    When you go back and reread, I could not find any rude comments in the posts by IronGrid representatives while I was hard pressed to find ONE from the Andreas/William contingency that did not call someone a name or take a pot-shot at another company's product.

    Who is really playing games on this thread? I can assure you it is not the IronGrid team!

    As for the comments regarding out patents I will simply say "time will tell."
    With or without the patents, folks really like our product and IronEye SQL is gaining as much momentum as an affordably priced component testing tool for Java developers as P6Spy has with developers in the open source community for the last 2 years.

    Lisa Sharples
    VP of Marketing
    IronGrid, Inc :)
  30. My Comments...[ Go to top ]

    Lady,

    Who is really playing games on this thread? I can assure you it is not the IronGrid team!

    of course, you do. IronEgg ;-) has seven people and 7 1/2 of them have posted here. And all posted nearly the same, talended people bla.

    As for the comments regarding out patents I will simply say "time will tell."

    I mean, that says it all. Announcing a low-featered product and claiming a patent on common techniques just to make noise.

    Have a nice day.

    -- Andreas
  31. Strange[ Go to top ]

    Andreas,

       I noticed that theserverside.com has posted a thread on your behalf. How do you think the operators of this website are going to feel after they look at this thread and see how you are behaving? Do you think that your behaviour will cause them to respect you? Do you think that they'll want you to represent their website in the professional manner that they are after?
       Just wondering what your thoughts on this are.

    ~Scott/Larry
  32. Strange[ Go to top ]

    Just wondering what your thoughts on this are.

    Ask them, you anonymous gasbag.
  33. Just to clarify[ Go to top ]

    Lisa,

       I agree with your statement, especially regarding Cameron Purdy. Cameron's a wonderful person to speak with.
       Uh oh, don't look now, but I think there is a conspiracy between myself and Tangasol to make JDBInsight look bad! Quick, call the Andreas Mueller alter-ego and make a smokescreen!!
       Lisa, just let William/Andreas make his statements and ignore him. It is obvious that William feels threatened by IronGrid. People who are confident in their products do not behave in this manner in public. William, once again: YOU ARE RUINING YOUR GOOD NAME BY DOING THIS.
       When you ignore a child's bad behaviour, it ALWAYS goes away.

    Thanks,

    ~Scott/Larry
  34. Just to clarify[ Go to top ]

    Scott, Larry, et al:

    1. "Tangosol" (not "Tangasol", although so many people unintentionally mis-spell it we registered that domain too ;-)

    2. Andreas Mueller - very bright guy, and always speaks his mind. Neither is a bad thing. Something about the thread looked odd to him, and he said something. It may bother some people; personally, there are a few times in my life that I should have spoken up, so I will be the last to cast a stone.

    3. William - another bright and respected person, and very dedicated to what he does. Something about the thread looked odd to him too, so he said something too.

    4. IronGrid IronEye - no idea. New company, new wares. Good luck! Definitely working the viral marketing angle, which is apparently what triggered the alarms (too many years spent in an industry pockmarked by actual conspiracies?)

    5. Patents - looks good in a valuation. Always nice to have when dealing with big corporates, but IMHO (IANAL etc.) unenforceable in this case.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  35. I see your point[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

       I certainly don't want to drag you into this, but I respectfully disagree that people speaking their mind is not a bad thing, especially when people like Andreas, when referring to Lisa Sharples presence in the workplace, say this:

    ---You better went back into your kitchen---

       Also, if people from IronGrid are truly spending their time promoting their product on this message board, that's their perogative. By complaining about it, William is acting in a tacky manner. I'm not saying that these people are not intelligent, obviously they are. But they have a lot to learn in other areas.

    ~Scott/Larry
  36. I see your point[ Go to top ]

    You better went back into your kitchen


    That was a joke, Scott/Larry et al. It refered to a message from Lisa calling us 12-years old boys. I'm sure Lisa got the joke.

    -- Andreas
  37. This tool works well[ Go to top ]

    Thanks for highlighting this tool. I downloaded it yesterday, and played around with a little. Seems pretty useful, I've already caught a couple of rouge SQL transactions I need to address. I'm working on a team building an application that is pulling data from a couple of different databases, with fairly heavy transaction load, so tracking down excessive SQL calls is pretty important.

    I think the best part of this tool is its simplicity - it doesn't try to tell you a 50 things at once, or monitor everything that could affect performance. Give me a clean interface, a defined scope, and clear instructions, and I'm happy. I have tried other tools (JProbe - couldn't install it; JDBCInsight - bad support when I ran into problems). If IronGrid is going to keep delivering simple, elegant tools that do as well as this one, I say, keep them coming.
  38. Great post.[ Go to top ]

    You've captured the essence of what IronGrid is trying to do: use a small, inexpensive tool with a laser focus to improve your application performance. It's intended to help individual developers, who can quickly find and install the tool and apply it immediately and everyday, rather than in an end-of-cycle tuning exercise. It's not the usual model, and it's not the only model. But it is an important niche that's been neglected, and I think this team has the experience to pull it off.
  39. Great post.[ Go to top ]

    "Bruce Tate:"

    You've captured the essence of what IronGrid is trying to do: use a small, inexpensive tool with a laser focus to improve your application performance. It's intended to help individual developers, who can quickly find and install the tool and apply it immediately and everyday, rather than in an end-of-cycle tuning exercise. It's not the usual model, and it's not the only model. But it is an important niche that's been neglected, and I think this team has the experience to pull it off.

    Raberlababer. Do they pay for lines or per posting? How much? 50 bucks or only 2 Big Mac's?

    From my view, if you can follow me, their business model doesn't make sense. They have just too many people to make a living from the revenue of a low-cost performance analyzer tool plus whatever follow-up products. A minimum of 1 million $$$ is required per year. And don't think that you can make money with consulting out of that tool. You can't. Forget it.

    -- Andreas
  40. Thanks for checking us out[ Go to top ]

    I can't claim to be an impartial observer of this thread, as I recently joined the IronGrid development team. :-) I can say a couple of things about this discussion. First, this is not a company funded by money from any of our own pockets; it not that we don't want to, it's that they're empty. We have funding. Primarily, it means that we will be able to execute on our vision of "point solutions". Because we're not some guy coding shirtless at 2am (hey we've all been there), but a real company, you can actually get ahold of us for support 24/7. We're not off consulting to fund a hobby project. This IS our day job.

    Because we're funded, it also means we'll have to manpower to create a whole series of point solution tools. Some of which are complimentary and snap together, but all of which are runnable (and useful) as standalone tools. We've all used (or tried to use) tools like JProbe or OptimizeIt. They a royal pain to setup, they feel clunky, and while the information seems to be somewhere under the hood, it never seems to be presented an a meaningful way to the user. Basically they don't feel like tools written by people who actually use tools like that.

    So, keep you eye on us, we've got lots of other cool and useful stuff in the pipeline and the resources to realize it.
  41. Hi Darwin,

    I have no record of you making a contact to support. Is this your real name or an alias?

    If you have run into issues with installing the product I would love to hear it especially as the product has a similiar installation/configuration to IronGrid's product (for your information JDBInsight was out before P6Spy open source tool was announced). The only difference is that the product requires a license file to be issued.

    William
  42. Hi Darwin, I have no record of you making a contact to support. Is this your real name or an alias?

    Yep, my impression is that most of the postings here are from IG guys to beat the drums for their product. That's a bad attitude, guys. Everybody will notice what's going on here.

    -- Andreas
  43. Drum-beating[ Go to top ]

    Andreas, I actually don't mind that the IronGrid guys are coming on this board and answering questions; they are doing so in a classy and professional manner, and they are helping us to understand their product better, so I'm all for it. I think you meant to say that you don't appreciate their competitor, Mr. Louth, from touting his own JDBInsight product on a thread that is not about his product. That's the impression I got since your italicized quote is Mr. Louth asking about a customer's JDBInsight support question (or am I wrong about this?).

    Anyway, to address the issue of expensive products (Brett's statement):

    Brett, you are right that Mercury charges big dollars for their product. But you also insinuate that this money is not worth it, and that's where I respectfully disagree with you. There are several competitors to Mercury's space in the industry who are much cheaper than Mercury, and yet none of them are able to take a significant amount of market space away from Mercury. These are not run-of-the-mill competitors, either, they are respected institutions like Rational (now IBM), and CompuWare. A Java-based competitor called Segue also tried to take market share away from Mercury and has failed miserably. Segue makes as much revenue a year as Mercury probably spends on its electricity bill.

    Don't mean to tout Mercury's horn here, but I do believe in paying a premium price for products that a company will support. There are very few examples in the IT industry of a software product that is so solid as the Mercury products. They have excellent support and an extremely sharp R&D group. This company is gaining market share in several areas and are poised to become a major player in the entire tech space. To get where Mercury is, you have to charge top dollar and make it worth it.

    By keeping your products cheap, you don't really give yourself an opportunity to grow and make your product, support and R&D better... unless you are paying yourself minimum wage.

    How do you view this point?

    Thank you,

    ~Scott
  44. Drum-beating[ Go to top ]

    (or am I wrong about this?).

    Yes. And you're right, the IG guys are invented from you and the other fakes.

    -- Andreas
  45. uhhhh[ Go to top ]

    Andreas,

       Look at your quote -- you are blaming the IronGrid people for something that the JDBInsight person said! So you are indeed incorrect about your statement.
       I love hearing all the conspiracy issues as much as the next guy, but seriously, stop spamming this thread with complaints that IG is setting it up, they're not. They are signing their names and making relevant comments.
       I can't say what I would do if I were a paranoid german man who likes to troll message boards and make flaming statements, but I imagine it would have something to do with revisiting my personal issues with envy at other people's success.

    Thanks,

    ~Scott
  46. blubb[ Go to top ]

    Look at your quote -- you are blaming the IronGrid people for something that the JDBInsight person said! So you are indeed incorrect about your statement.

    That's wrong, buddy. I only posted a follow-up on Will's question whether "Darwin" is his real name or a fake like your "Scott McNealy". My further comment was just my view how this thread works.

    paranoid german man who likes to troll message boards and make flaming statements

    I'm a German but I'm not paranoid. I just hate this type of shameless marketing you and others are doing here.

    -- Andreas
  47. OK[ Go to top ]

    OK, so let me get this straight -- Andreas and Will think that thread's purpose is to have IronGrid create a conversation between themselves.

    Will and Andreas, I can assure you that I am not in any way affiliated with IronGrid. You will note that my questions to them haven't exactly been in line with trying to make them look good. In fact, I still have yet to hear an answer on how they are going to try and support their product if they don't plan on charging a lot for it, and I certainly didn't say that to be nice.

    In my opinion, IronGrid and also JDBInsight cannot answer this question correctly because in the end, both organizations will need to make good money to keep this product successfull.

    I also pointed out that the idea of being "more affordable" than other companies has NOT worked in the past and will not work in the picture. Mercury owns close to 60% of the QA market --- and they have the most expensive products out there. What does that tell you? Don't believe that you are going to be the first people who think that you can beat this company by undercutting them, you won't. I think IronGrid put it quite well when they said that they want to work with, and not *replace*, companies like Mercury/BMC/Rational/etc.

    Will, you need to re-establish your approach to engaging the public. Do not fight with the flamers or accuse competitors of wrong-doing, it only makes you look bad. I am offended that you consider me to be disingenuous, and I certainly will keep that in mind when it comes time to promote the next JDBC-monitoring tool to the many Fortune 500 companies that I work with.

    ~Scott
  48. OK[ Go to top ]

    Will, you need to re-establish your approach to engaging the public. Do not fight with the flamers or accuse competitors of wrong-doing, it only makes you look bad. I am offended that you consider me to be disingenuous, and I certainly will keep that in mind when it comes time to promote the next JDBC-monitoring tool to the many Fortune 500 companies that I work with.

    Ooops. Are you the real Scott McNealy? That one talking with Fortune 500 companies? The one and only?.

    Or just a fake, a gas ballon?

    -- Andreas
  49. Hoping To Be Bought Out[ Go to top ]

    I'm sure the founders are hoping to be bought out by a bigger player in the future.
  50. Try Elvyx ...[ Go to top ]

    We were using p6spy and IronGrid but we could not find the IronGrid code to fix some bugs. Then, we started implementing a client for p6spy and we finished implementing the full solution. This application is Elvyx and can be downloaded from: http://www.elvyx.com I think this tool could be useful to the community. Armando ;-) http://www.elvyx.com
  51. blubb[ Go to top ]

    but I imagine it would have something to do with revisiting my personal issues with envy at other people's success.

    I have absolutely no problems with other peoples success. It's just the reverse. I'm happy if other people have an idea, make a *good* job which results in a proper revenue stream.

    However, this product, Iron..SQL, is just the same as JDBInsight but with less functionality. So I don't understand this hype on their product at all.

    When I saw this announcement I was sure that Will will post a plug of JDBInsight. So I was expecting a comparation of both products. That would be interesting. But nothing happens. Instead the hype went on. For a product with less functionality... Shameless marketing.

    -- Andreas
  52. Come on stop playing games...[ Go to top ]

    Guys this is getting silly. Its OK to promote your product with an announcement but the rest is really not professional behavior. My initial posting on this thread was because I thought that Scott was a real user in need of a good JDBC profiling tool.

    I am glad that someone else has started to feel that there was something wrong with the other postings on this thread as I was started to feel a circle forming around me.

    On another thread about performance optimization Bruce did mention IronGrid and made a flattering comparison with Borland. Bruce did not mention he worked for IronGrid but did say that he thought the company was going to make it. Strange that he then went to JavaLobby.org and posted the following:

    <extract>
    Posted by Bruce Tate Mar 4, 2003 3:43 PM
    Topic: IronGrid announces IronEye SQL
      Full Story:
      IronEye SQL is a tool that helps developers gain insight into the performance of the SQL that flows between a J2EE application server and a JDBC database.


    Bruce, I would love to have an user like you. So much work for no pay.
     
    Now lets look at the user ids of each of the posters on this thread:

    13939 Andreas
    116822 Bruce
    94019 William

    270578 Scott McNealy
    271581 Lisa Sharples
    271780 Darwin Sliver
    271829 Ryan Drake
    271827 Brent Woolridge
    271846 Cody Menard

    I love looking for patterns in threads. Maybe I am seeing more than there is as I don't really know how user ids are assigned by www.theserverside.com

    Regards,

    William
  53. Can We Move On?[ Go to top ]

    Gang-

    I go to lunch for one hour and you all start acting like 12 year-olds. We need more girls posting on this website to keep all you boys from starting these virtual fist fights :)

    Can we please get back to the thread where we were debating the difference between enterprise testing and component testing or the other one on the technology behind the products in the market? Those are more more fun to me!

    Lisa
  54. Can We Move On?[ Go to top ]

    I go to lunch for one hour and you all start acting like 12 year-olds. We need more girls posting on this website to keep all you boys from starting these virtual fist fights

    You better went back into your kitchen. This is for hard men and gas bags only.

    -- Andreas
  55. uhhhh[ Go to top ]

    Scott I love your double standards. Can you explain the need to qualify Andreas as german. Then look at one of your postings on another thread.

    Scott I would hope that most of the top 500 corporations within the world be them German or American, ;-), would not let a person like you within their company.

    ==========================================================================
    Posted By: Scott McNealy on March 07, 2003 @ 12:17 PM
    Andreas,
    I can't say what I would do if I were a paranoid german man who likes to troll message boards and make flaming statements, but I imagine it would have something to do with revisiting my personal issues with envy at other people's success.

    Posted By: Scott McNealy on March 03, 2003 @ 11:34 PM in response to Message #75589.
    The most troubling thing about TQ is his obvious racism against any non-Indian. He seems to really hate Americans. He looks down on American schools and thinks that American citizens are "...idiots...".
         TQs attitude will eventually catch up to him and he will be discovered by his superiors (who are most likely American citizens), so don't waste your breath trying to cajole him into feeling badly about his comments.
         I've always felt that those who have something to hide are the ones who sound like TQ. TQ is afraid and lonely, and the only reason he feels empowered to speak so rudely is because he knows, in the end, that nobody pays attention to him anyway. Let's try to ignore him from now on --- I know that everyone was hoping that he would keep his word and stop writing to this thread, but it's obvious that this is the only way TQ will feel that people will know that he exists. Scott.

    ==========================================================================

    SCOTT, SCOTT, wake up you do not exist you are caught in a grid.

    By the way I am Irish.

    William
  56. Yes[ Go to top ]

    William,

       I'm glad you brought up the fact that I gave a business etiquette lecture to people in the thread "How To Interview A Programmer". The post that you have quoted is a good example of the kinds of things I had to deal with. I have to admit that I take special exception to people who criticize American culture in the way that TQ did in his posting, and I stand by my defense. Being a foreigner working in America myself, I find it especially appalling that some of my peers have the nerve to make ignorant statements about the very country that gave us the wonderful opportunities we now enjoy. TQ is a pariah, and I want to make sure that people do not form the wrong opinions about foreigners based on his postings.

       I invite anybody who is interested in business etiquette to please read that thread. William, you will certainly want to bookmark that one.

    ~Scott.
  57. Yes[ Go to top ]

    I'm glad you brought up the fact that I gave a business etiquette lecture to people in the thread "How To Interview A Programmer".

    Ahh, you are the former "Larry Ellison" and now "Scott McNealy". You have fear to post under your real name. A weasel. :-)

    I read you "lecture" and enjoyed it. May be you don't wear white socks, however, I can imagine that gasbags like you wear [former] white underpants with brown and yellow blotches.

    -- Andreas
  58. Hi First Last[ Go to top ]

    Andreas,

        Your written text, especially your usage of the word "gasbag" lead me to believe that you are First Last, otherwise known as "The Politburo Man".
        Nice to meet you!

    ~Scott/Larry
  59. Hi First Last[ Go to top ]

        Your written text, especially your usage of the word "gasbag" lead me to believe that you are First Last, otherwise known as "The Politburo Man".

    >     Nice to meet you!

    You sound like a paranoid immigrant, weasel.

    Have a nice day.

    -- Andreas
  60. What's the overhead?[ Go to top ]

    It sounds like this uses a virtual JDBC driver or a wrapper of some kind to extract the SQL traffic? Seems simple, and from what I read on IG's web site, the information it tells you seems pretty useful. My question is what is the overhead of inserting this tool between your application and the database? I'm wondering, because it seems like it might be interesting to insert this tool as a simple diagnostic view into applications that are in production too - but not if it hits performance, which would be the very thing it was trying to solve...
  61. Re: What's the overhead?[ Go to top ]

    Ryan,
    We've tested IronEye SQL with various app servers using a load testing tool. In all our tests, with the same load applied with and without the driver installed, the differences in the measured throughput were minimal. Of course any product that profiles your application will add some overhead. But we took great care to minimize the impact of IE SQL to your application. We are not immune to taht. We try to keep things simple and move some computation over on the client side. Nonetheless, give it a try and send us your feedback. Our tech support folks will promptly reply to your requests.

    Regards,

    cody
  62. P6Spy and IronEye SQL[ Go to top ]

    First, yes, I have definitely worked with Irongrid in the past, so take these comments with that in mind :) although I do not directly work for the company, I strongly believe in what they are doing.

    The original idea for IronEye SQL came out of all the feedback received about p6spy. The p6spy project was started and has been running for almost 2 years as a way to help people solve a single problem: being able to easily see what SQL statements were flowing between an application and a database. This was all done in our spare time with some additional, great contributions from a number of people who decided to help out the project, for which I am very grateful.

    Having created much of p6spy, having seen how it is being used, and having heard a lot of feedback on how people use the product, there is clearly the need for an easier, GUI, means to view and manipulate that information. Unfortunately, only having limited time to work on the project, there wasn't time to do this and continue to make the necessary engine enhancements that I was receiving. This is where the team at IronGrid stepped in, with funding from a well-known venture capital firm, to build and release a product that could really met that need. In doing so, they also continued to contribute back a large number of additional engine enhancements to the open source project, which is great for everyone. So IronEye SQL version 1.0 was designed specifically to be on the desk of the developer and to meet the need of the large number of people who had previously emailed me and asked for particular features in this area.

    The next product they are releasing, IronEye Cache, is largely based on the extensive work a friend and co-worker of mine, Andy Martin, has done in the field of caching and how that could be applied to a virtual driver. Andy received his PhD some 15 years ago based on a thesis concerning innovations in caching, so he has a few good ideas in that area :) and I think the way his ideas have been applied in IronEye Cache are really innovative.

    So my personal opinion on how IronGrid is different is they are a very talented group of people whose focus is on products that are very easy to use and understand and are affordable enough to be purchased by the average developer.

    -Jeff
  63. P6Spy and IronEye SQL[ Go to top ]

    So my personal opinion on how IronGrid is different is they are a very talented group of people whose focus is on products that are very easy to use and understand and are affordable enough to be purchased by the average developer.

    Nice, Jeff, that you've also told us your important opinion. It is soooo beautiful that they differ from other companies, because they are sooo talented and focus soooo much on easy to use products.

    My last question is only how stupid a venture capitalist must be to throw a single dime into that business model. That sounds like boo.com during the old dot.com times!

    -- Andreas
  64. P6Spy and IronEye SQL[ Go to top ]

    Jeff could you please clarify what exactly you meant when you said that you previously worked with IronGrid. I know your background from P6Spy but could you tell me whether you are associated with a VC that is funding them.

    I have been very open in my role within Inspired (Product Architect and Company Director). I would appreciate the same. I think you (IronGrid) at least owe one person on this thread an apology maybe even another person {;-)}.

    Maybe IronGrid's caching product will prove worthy so please try to do some repair here. Unfortunately I do really think so after working for with Borland Appserver since its alpha (Jan 1999) I have never seen the need and believe that caching is either below (database front) or above (application specific). An early version of JDBInsight had a caching service but I removed this because I really did not feel this was the correct way to tackle the problem.

    Regards,

    William
  65. Amazing[ Go to top ]

    It's amazing how William has just been schooled on the art of public relations and business etiquette, yet continues to damage his good name with his comments. It's easy to dismiss Andreas because of the obvious immaturity and ridiculous behaviour, but to behave in the way you have as the proprietor of a product you wish to take into the professional world is shameful. I'm embarrassed for you William.

    William, one thing that IronGrid has that you desperately need is a good PR/Marketing person. I am sure that the one for IronGrid is frantically making sure that her colleagues do not take the bait and respond to your and Andreas' comments. It's too bad you didn't have the same benefit, you are a loose cannon.

    One thing that this thread has certainly shown is that a good PR/Marketing person is worth his/her weight in gold.

    Now William, take your toy to the other kids and let the grownups discuss business.

    I still await for a reply concerning the business model and economic viability of IronGrid with respect to the low price of their product. How does IronGrid expect to achieve longevity with this model? Thank you!

    ~Scott
  66. Hi Guys,

    For the record, let me try and clarify the relationship between P6Spy and IronGrid.

    As I breifly outlined yesterday to you guys, after Garden.com, several of us got together and developed a technology, P6, based on the years we had been developing web applications. Some of us were from Garden, some not. After patenting this technology, we thought it would be cool to create an open source project with it and developed P6Spy (www.p6spy.com) The original team that developed the P6 technology and P6Spy was Andy (who Jeff spoke about), Jeff, Cliff, Jamie, Joe and me. P6Spy has been out there ever since and has received over 10,000 downloads in the last two years.

    As a result of the positive feedback we have continued to receive about P6Spy, several of us thought it might be cool to develop a company that continued to build on the concepts behind P6Spy. Cliff, Jamie and I decided to dedicate ourselves full-time to the effort while Jeff agreed to work in a consulting capacity to help us get the first product (IronEye SQL) out the door. Jeff is now working with Andy on some other cool new technologies completely unrelated to IronGrid.

    Hope that clears things up for you all. If anyone wants to start a new thread that isn't taking pot-shots at each other, I am happy to participate but as of now, I am retiring from the conversations that have deteriorated into bad manners.

    Lisa
  67. My Noise Marking Spree[ Go to top ]

    Before people shout conspiracies, let me admit that it was I who went through this thread and marked the following types of messages as noisy:

     - messages that were insulting to others person or opinion (and most of the followup replies to those posts)
     - messages that were off the topic of this thread

    Lets please drop and leave behind the personal baggage in this thread and get on to technically interesting discussions.

    Floyd
  68. My Noise Marking Spree[ Go to top ]

    Ever thought about getting some well known/respected memebers to act as moderators? Then noone would be able to accuse TMC/TSS of censorship.
    Regards,
    Vlad