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News: Sun: Overturning Java order will damage us

  1. Sun: Overturning Java order will damage us (95 messages)

    Sun filed a brief claiming it will face "irreparable harm" if an injunction ordering Microsoft to include Sun's JRE is overturned.

    This is the latest brief as information seesaws between the two companies.

    They want the injunction granted "before Microsoft's anti-competitive actions begin to tip the market towards .NET".

    "Microsoft asks this court to wait until the harm (to Sun and Java) has become certain, at which point it will be irremediable and intervention will be pointless," Sun wrote in its brief, adding, "The harm confronting Sun is so egregious and irremediable, equity demands judicial intervention."

    Oral arguments in the appeal are scheduled for April 3.

    Read more about the brief from Infoworld and IDG

    Threaded Messages (95)

  2. Am I the only person who wishes sun would spend more time improving the Java platform and less time arguing with MS. Java has great traction in the market place, and represents, to me at least, a far more compelling platform for developing large scale eCommerce apps then .net (and I speak as someone who works predominatly with VB and ASP). I just wish that they would look at doing something about the vast memory footprint of Swing and the poor performance of applets relative to, say, Flash).
  3. "Am I the only person who wishes sun would spend more time improving the Java platform and less time arguing with MS. Java has great traction in the market place, and represents, to me at least, a far more compelling platform for developing large scale eCommerce apps then .net (and I speak as someone who works predominatly with VB and ASP). I just wish that they would look at doing something about the vast memory footprint of Swing and the poor performance of applets relative to, say, Flash)."

    From YOUR perspective, the MS/Java argument is largely irrelevant, as it is in my life as an enterprise Java developer. Many people believe that Java has found its true home with J2EE, and if that is the case, then MS/Java is, in fact, largely irrelevant.

    In the latter part of your comment, however, you express that you want Java to improve Java on the client side. THIS is where the fight is critical. My wife is a teacher whose job is to instruct students using technology. The Sun/MS schism means that most of her computers either have no Java installed, or a 1.0.x version that renders most current Java applets useless (think collections). So even though there are many excellent teaching games on the web written in Java, she can't use them. The IT administrators are wary of installing anything that doesn't come in a Microsoft service pack or on some other standard CD they order, and it takes bureaucracy up to the county level to get some non-standard software installations approved.

    If I weren't around to give her the full background, she's said that her conclusion would be that "Java doesn't work". This is a real problem for Java on the client side that needs to be resolved before people give up on it. I think that trying to match Flash feature-for-feature in applets would be the real waste of effort - they serve different purposes, in my mind, largely due to the significant cost of development tools for Flash. Java tools for applets are free, and applets can do a decent job of things. As for Swing, well, SWT shows us what Swing _could_ be, and I do think they need to make progress there fast and soon.
  4. In my view, the landscape wouldn't change much if either company wins the legal battle.

    Also it's time SUN stopped whinning, do some real work, improve upon Java on the server side.

    And come out with an affordable alternative to Wintel, rather than trying to piggyback on it.

    Cheers,
    Elango
  5. Java on the client-side[ Go to top ]

    Microsoft will soon be shipping the .NET runtime with every cd, every windows update and every browser download they can (if they aren't already). This gives them an enormous distribution advantage over Java on the client side and it is a direct result of them leveraging their monopoly in the PC operating system market. It makes sense that Sun pursue a course of action that would allow for fair competition on the desktop.
  6. Java on the client-side[ Go to top ]

    "Microsoft will soon be shipping the .NET runtime with every cd, every windows update and every browser download they can (if they aren't already). This gives them an enormous distribution advantage over Java on the client side and it is a direct result of them leveraging their monopoly in the PC operating system market. It makes sense that Sun pursue a course of action that would allow for fair competition on the desktop."

    exactly. if you put yourself in Sun's shoes, this is a perfectly legitimate course of action.
  7. Java on the client-side[ Go to top ]

    If Microsoft is a monopoly and Windows is an essential facility, then it would be irresponsible for Sun to not pursue this.

    One could surmise that the proof of how important it is to a competitive market can be inferred by the lengths that Microsoft will take to avoid it.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  8. It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so naive when it comes to saying things like "why don't they spend their money making it better instead of complaining."

    If you (Sun) are in a fist fight and the other person (M$) brings a gun, do you have a right to cry foul? You bet.

    The reason noone else does it is because they are too scared to stand up to the 600-lb Gorilla. IBM has much to lose by doing it - they continue to have a large investment in the PC platform - sell several multiples more IBM servers with Windwos than Linux. Moreover, IBM begrudges Sun's position as the continued thought leader in Java - case in point with the lack of an invitation to WS-I (go figure that http://www.wsi.org is for a psychiatric facility). I mean really - Intel is a part of the permanent community - they think of Web services as a new MMX instruction. BEA is too small and too afraid that M$ will squash them like a bug and is not notably audible about the whole situation.

    So who's left to stand up and speak? Oracle? Yeah right. They're too caught up in a DB/2 Oracle war. I openly invite other companies to speak out - no I challenge any other company - except that noone ever does.

    In terms of investing more time and Java only belonging on the server? I know this is the serverside.com (a M$ sponsored organization) but has anyone looked at J2ME support at all? Do you think that BREW or Sybmian has as much support as Java? I don't think so.

    So why J2SE? In some ways it's a circular argument. Do you invest vast amounts of money improving a platform that has no chance of ever really seeing the light of day in a significant way? (M$ owns the delivery platform). Or do you open the doors first to justify that a vast sum of money can be spent improving the J2SE platform. In fact, why doesn't someone else do it - within the bounds of the community (unlike IBM who is always looking to steal Java from Sun - but in a much more covert and devious way).

    Smell the coffee folks - you must know by now it's not the best technology that wins - it's the best marketing.
  9. "Moreover, IBM begrudges Sun's position as the continued thought leader in Java - case in point with the lack of an invitation to WS-I (go figure that http://www.wsi.org is for a psychiatric facility)."

    Keep in mind that the lack of invitation was done at Microsoft's insistence, not IBM's. IBM wanted Sun on the WS-I board, but Microsoft didn't want the hegemony from the MS-Sun court battles to carry over to the WS-I. MS teamed with IBM because it's a Java player that hasn't cried foul at MS.

    That being said, I still disagree with the decision not to invite Sun as a founding board member to WS-I, but I can at least understand the reasoning behind the argument as being not entirely baseless.
  10. Sun is damaging Java already. The only reason Java is successful is IBM and BEA. People are making this into a SUN vs. MS battle and .NET vs Java. J2EE is .NET competitor and IBM, BEA, Open Source is the competition for MS. But MS will keep mixing Java and SUn to burn it into the ground.
  11. strongly agree[ Go to top ]

    strongly agree
  12. It seems strange that of the many companies that have put their chips behind Java (IBM, Oracle, BEA to name the obvious ones) only Sun seems to want to keep complaining about MS.

    A lot of people are writing good software in Java and making a lot of money at it and yet only Sun cries foul. This decision will not have any major impact on the landscape. As I see it if you are a developer writing Java applications you can just as easily bundle a JVM with it as many applications we have all installed do.

    It seems to me Sun is in the business of filing nuisance lawsuits perhaps to increase it’s visibility; they are picking the biggest fight there is to make themselves more visible in the mainstream. An add campaign at the expense of the taxpayer cool!
  13. It never ceases to amaze me how people begrudge the fact that Sun defends Java from Microsoft. The fact that Sun didnt roll over when Microsoft tried to break portability means we enjoy an environment where portability is NOT a myth.

    Micrsoft can and are leveraging their desktop market dominance to make it very difficult (or at least very uncertain) to deploy java on the client. They have a very large motive for doing this: .net

    We have a situation where we have to consider replacing applets on our internet-facing Web-apps purely because Microsoft may not distribute a JVM.

    There ARE IT departments that are very reluctant to install stuff on corporate desktops that dont come from MSDN or on an MS Service Pack.

    I, for one, am thankful that Sun do this for the Java community - its a thankless (not to mention expensive) task.

    -Nick
  14. Nick,

    Well said! Some here have forgotten that Microsoft is the one who comitted the crime.

    Just because it doesn't apply to one's area of focus does not mean it's not important. I want to see client side Java thrive.

    Rob
  15. Well said! Some here have forgotten that Microsoft is the one who comitted the crime.


    i doubt we'll ever forget that on the server side :-D
  16. You have got to be kidding[ Go to top ]

    What is the size of the Java runtime up to now? My J2SDK1.4.1/JRE folder is 40 megabytes uncompressed. So every time someone wants to run an applet, just ship the JRE with it? Oh, and download the linux sources and compile them first, to run java on, while you're at it. That seems reasonably to expect end users to do. The only java application that ever shipped on CD was an IDE, and everyone downloads those nowadays.
  17. Size of the JRE[ Go to top ]

    The JRE installation executable on Windows is about 8MB.
  18. It's an interesting argument. I agree that with J2EE and Sun's entrenchment on the server side, it's not as critical a battle as it once may have been. But as others here have pointed out, MS is shipping their .NET runtime in all new service packs and os releases. That's an interesting situation that wasn't there before: MS, like Sun, now has a platform that requires certain runtime modules be present on the installation machine. If that weren't the case, then I would think that Sun was just making noise. But now that they have something that doesn't (by default) run on most windows machines without a runtime installation but all future versions will have the runtime included, MS is back in a similar situation they were back when internet browsers were the software in question. Them shipping the .NET runtime and not shipping Java is the same as them shipping (and tying into the OS) IE instead of netscape. If they're doing that, they should ship the latest JRE because otherwise it's leveraging their service pack and OS release process to get an unfair advantage (whether for server side or client side programming).

    One thing that's an interesting difference, though, is that I can ship the JRE with an application and not require a lengthy, registry-entry-laden installation process that requires a computer restart. I can also install the JRE directly, which drops files in a directory and makes only a handful of registry entries (maybe 5). But I don't need to install the JRE first, so shipping that runtime is pretty painless. As anyone who has gone through installing the .NET framework can tell you, that's not the case in that world. INstalling the .NET framework (not even VS.NET) takes a while, digs pretty deeply into your OS, and forces a restart. Perhaps MS is bundling the CLR and .NET framework into service packs and OS releases because they didn't design it well enough to allow for an unobtrusive installation? What this means is that even if the injunction is overturned, it's not as damaging to Sun and Java as it would be to MS an .NET if the roles were reversed.
  19. Installing the JRE NOT painless[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    One thing that's an interesting difference, though, is that I can ship the JRE with an application and not require a lengthy, registry-entry-laden installation process that requires a computer restart. I can also install the JRE directly, which drops files in a directory and makes only a handful of registry entries (maybe 5). But I don't need to install the JRE first, so shipping that runtime is pretty painless."


    What? Have you tried installing jdk1.4.x on a Windows machine with a normal user account? You get that wonderful "You require administrative priveleges to install this" message. Is there a way to install the jre without administrative privileges? I would love to know what it is!
  20. Installing the JRE NOT painless[ Go to top ]

    No, but I've shipped an application to a client with the JRE included (NOT the sdk, which is much larger). The application didn't require any version of Java on the client machine and installed fine without admin privileges. If the user wants to install the SDK (or maybe even the JRE) it may require admin privileges but it's not an issue if you ship a copy of the JRE. JRE alone comes in at just under 30MB, which isn't that bad. And considering you don't have a ton of cryptic hooks into the registry, I find it a more manageable solution. One nice feature about shipping the JRE is that you have total control of the JRE; our app used smartcards, which required that certain DLLs be installed in the JRE/bin directory. Because we installed the JRE with the program, this wasn't the same issue it would have been if we'd relied on a pre-installed JDK and then had to find it and copy DLLs there. Our app is totally isolated, which is MUCH better in my opinion.

    This is similar to how COM dlls worked and how .NET dlls work now. In COM, everything had to be registered in one place. In .NET, you can register everything in one place but you have the option of just using DLLs like jars are used in Java. You get the choice. Sun offers a similar choice with their runtime distribution. Unfortunately, due to the complexity of the .NET framework, you don't get that flexibility. You can't to the best of my knowledge run different versions of the .NET framework on the same system like you can JREs.

    FYI, we used InstallAnywhere to package up our app with a JRE; I'd highly recommend it if you're looking for a way to distribute the JRE.
  21. You can't to the best of my knowledge run different versions of the .NET framework on the same system...

    <Drew McAuliffe>All you have done...indicate a thorough lack of real experience with Java (or even .NET, for that matter). In every post I have made, I have consistently stated that I do not think either Java or .NET is thoroughly superior, that I program in both EVERY DAY..

    <Drew McAuliffe>developing Microsoft solutions has made me a good bit of money over the years..

    Managing Multiple Versions of the .NET Framework:
    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/techinfo/serverroles/appserver/mngfrmwk.mspx

    EVERY DAY..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  22. Side-by-Side CLRs are possible[ Go to top ]

    There are no issues with running multiple versions of the CLR concurrently on the same system similar to JVM. A simple 'ps | grep "java|mscor"' on my box nets 3 JREs and 2 CLRs running at the same time. My system currently has TogetherCC running on JRE1.3.1_02, an ANT build running on JRE1.3.1_06, a custom app (just started this one to prove point) on JRE1.4.1_02, Visual Studio.Net (in debug mode) using CLR 1.0 and a custom WinForm assembly (just started this one to prove point also) running the CLR 1.1.

    Remember, the CLR is just a COM DLL specifically mscoree.dll that is a facade (shim in MS terminology) for mscorwks.dll (or multi-processor mscorsvr.dll). This DLL is used when the runtime is started by a flag in the PE/COFF headers of the EXE that started the .Net application. Also, the Runtime can be loaded into a process via standard COM techniques (see ICorRuntimeHost) similar to embeddable JVMs.

    Why is this side-by-side available? The shim (mscoree) decides which CLR to load when a runtime is requested based of some variables like version, OS/processor architecture, GC, etc. Finally, this is all subject to change as the CLI was submitted for standardization to the ECMA (as a specification) and the CLR (the implementation) may change but it is unlikely that the startup hooks (PE hook, mscoree, ICorRuntimeHost, CorBindToRuntimeEx API, etc) will change soon.

    I am only providing this information (facts and data lacking opinion) so that people can make informed decisions and our discussions are not based upon preconceived notions.
  23. I think that the fact Microsoft has been delivering crippled Java such a long time with their browser is a great shame. You can argue that the most popular Java VM is the Microsoft VM and no other. Java is slow, and Java does not work. What other conclusion can you come to if you are the regular guy off the street. You often hear these same things from people who have not used Java. The belief sticks to hard that it amazes me.

    All this bundling game should be stopped entirely. No bundled browsers, no bundled media players, no bundled .NET, no Windows + Office packages. Just make Windows a barebone OS, with no additions on it. When you then download optional packages, you will be presented with choices: windows media player vs. Real media player..., .NET vs. Java, internet explorer vs. netscape/mozilla vs. Opera. I wonder if the OS would become cheaper over time if you could not bundle everything with it and make you pay for things you didn't even want. Once you bundle something with Windows, it gives an incredible advantage, and that IS unfair competition.

    So, if Sun can take a bite out of MS, then all the better. If this goes through, you could anticipate other companies and products to follow. I think it would benefit everyone to see MS sweat a little bit for its money.

    --
    Tero
  24. ..the fact Microsoft has been delivering crippled Java such a long time with their browser is a great shame.

    On TSS intellect dominates hysteria - at least some of the times.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  25. "All this bundling game should be stopped entirely."

    That's silly. MS is in the business to sell operating systems. I say, as a consumer, bundle all the goodies for me. As long as it doesn't make the OS too expensive.

    "Once you bundle something with Windows, it gives an incredible advantage, and that IS unfair competition. "

    It's not unfair any more than a car manufacturer bundling air conditioners, or cd players, or floor mats. Get real.
  26. It's not unfair any more than a car manufacturer bundling air conditioners, or cd players, or floor mats. Get real.


    If you buy a Ford today, what is the cost of buying a Chevy to replace it in a few years? Essentially, there is no cost outside of purchasing the vehicle itself.

    Now, assume that you are a business that is interested in replacing your Microsoft Windows box with a Linx box in a few years. How expensive is it to rewrite custom applications, buy new licesnes for existing 3rd party applications, port your data over, etc. The cost is probably 100x the cost of the actual product you are purchasing.

    So, a car manufacturer can not leverage an existing install base. But, Microsoft can.

    Get real.

    Russ
  27. More importantly is the concept that a company with a monopoly is capable of affecting the public good if it acts irresponsibly. These actions are usually classified as actions to maintain a monopoly by using the monopoly to erect barriers to entry, or actions to leverage a monopoly in one market to affect another market to the benefit of the monopoly holder. Our society, through the political system and the courts, has determined that these actions are detrimental and serious enough to warrant prevention or correction by the legal system.

    So while Ford or Chevy can bundle whatever they want to in their products, they probably would not have the same luxury if they held 95% of the market and had used the bundling as a means to erect barriers to entry into the automobile or any adjacent market.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  28. <QUOTE>More importantly is the concept that a company with a monopoly is capable of affecting the public good if it acts irresponsibly. These actions are usually classified as actions to maintain a monopoly by using the monopoly to erect barriers to entry, or actions to leverage a monopoly in one market to affect another market to the benefit of the monopoly holder. Our society, through the political system and the courts, has determined that these actions are detrimental and serious enough to warrant prevention or correction by the legal system.

    Just a question on these points not as baiting but rather plain opinion: what constitutes "the public good" here? This is just software development after all (no matter how much anyone in either "camp" tries to make it something more) and in my experience has no direct effect whatsoever on the public at large.

    In fact, most people I've met that subscribe to the "Microsoft as monopoly" idea do so more because of conditioning and because it's trendy than for any knowledgeable reason (although some have some very well thought-out reasons as well :)

    <QUOTE>So while Ford or Chevy can bundle whatever they want to in their products, they probably would not have the same luxury if they held 95% of the market and had used the bundling as a means to erect barriers to entry into the automobile or any adjacent market.

    Hmmm, might want to ask Preston Tucker his thoughts on that. That's pretty much exactly what happened to him. ;-)

    Love the running dialogue as always, everyone.

    Mike
  29. Who cares?[ Go to top ]

    How on earth could it be interesting if MS distribute Sun JRE or not? The battle is on the server now - the client side was lost many years ago thanks to Sun mismanagement of Java. And with the new service pack for Windows XP - the crappy Sun Swing library can conveniently be shut of.

    If anything I'm rather for it (all though it will give a strange precedence - how many other companies is there that want to use MS distribution channels?) on the reason that "Why give the Sun Java acolytes another squirming excuse?"

    I don't care if I have still another java VM on my computer! - I already have 14-15 (lost the count). Every time I download a Java server thingy it comes with a VM which it installs without asking..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    "the public good" == "to pester another "innocent user"
  30. Who cares?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    You're giving me no love here, man. You think it's easy looking for a place to whip out an obscure Automotive Industry anti-trust reference in context?

    :-)

    The point I was trying to make (vaguely, I admit) is that the lawsuit itself is based more on principle for Sun than any real threat right now. Microsoft doesn't include the latest Java version in Windows XP. Okay, "BAD Microsoft". BUT, the darn thing is available in every possible shape and size for free from any number of download locations, and works as well as it's going to on the very platform being accused of trying to exterminate it (i.e., Windows). As you state, you have several versions running as we speak, more than you want apparently. My point is that Microsoft refusing to bundle it isn't really keeping anyone from getting it and using it (some of you all with great success) on their own platform.

    The lawsuit is a product of the times, I think. Don't like what someone's doing, go ahead and sue. Even the "we are family" set in the Open Source Linux world are getting ready to get introduced to this concept in the form of Intellectual Property law. Wow, you think this MS vs. Sun stuff is a quagmire; we haven't seen anything yet if the IP Wars get rolling in the Unix/Linux world. And it's starting.

    Doing something solely on principle isn't bad, as long as you're willing to admit that's the case. In my opinion alone (I speak for no one else), that is Sun's deal here. I think even "they" would have to admit that they're playing both sides of the fence: claiming imminent doom to Java in their lawsuit, at least according to the article, but then in other forums are trying to lay rest to FUD by telling everyone who will listen that .NET isn't a threat because it's not widely adopted, isn't cross platform, doesn't scale, has an awkward-sounding name or whatever.

    Thoughts?
  31. 14-15 vm's?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    You say you have 14 jvm's installed on you computer and I think you are full of shitzu. Please, I would love it if you enumerated all the apps you have that installed full JRE's, all 14 (the low end) please.
  32. Oh no[ Go to top ]

    Oooooohhh Aaron, you realize not what thou has done... <BR><BR>Rolf will now stay up all night making sure that he gives you not only 14 different applications with different JVMs, he'll probably throw in an extra couple or two...

    And then that will cause somebody out there to take offense, which will breed counter-attacks... then Sartoris will jump in asking who on this message board can find one single sentence that he has written where he has explicitly said this or that....

    The neutral posters then jump in claiming that only the best technology should be chosen, and they don't care whether or not it's Java or .NET.

    Somebody shoot me now.

    ~Scott/Larry
  33. Oh no[ Go to top ]

    Lawsuit getting you down?

    :)

    Funnily enough, that's a probably a pretty accurate assessment of how it's all going to go. BUT, you forgot the inevitable deluge of postings relating to the merits or failings of .NET (no less than 50 or 60, if other such threads have anything to teach us).

    We're human. Under adverse conditions, we always go back to what we're comfortable with. Home, Sweet ServerSide. If we weren't doing it here, we'd be authoring rambling and in some cases incoherent e-mails to "All" at our companies venting all of this out on the company dollar. And probably no one would read the e-mails. This is much better.
  34. Oh no[ Go to top ]

    "then Sartoris will jump in asking who on this message board can find one single sentence that he has written where he has explicitly said this or that.... "

    I defy you to find any postings I've made where I've asked anyone to find where I've done that!
  35. Nice[ Go to top ]

    Touche, my dear Sartoris!

    ~Scott/Larry
  36. Who cares?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "The battle is on the server now - the client side was lost many years ago thanks to Sun mismanagement of Java."

    The way I see it, is that there was no battle. The battle is just about to take place. Java would most definately be an option if you could trust that the majority of Windows machines carry the JRE. That IS interesting.

    Anyone could just browse the Internet and download apps using Webstart. I think we would see an explosion of small Java utility apps, games, and other creations find their way on your desktop. Companies would actually take Java on desktop seriously if they knew that they have easy access to that desktop. If that 'delivery channel' is there, it would make all the difference.
  37. As usual...[ Go to top ]

    |
    |How on earth could it be interesting if MS distribute Sun JRE or not?
    |

    Its very important.

    Like many have said, there are NT support departments that will be very reluctant to install something on NT that has not come from a MS Service Pack or from a microsoft download site. That means that anyone with a website that is currently using applets needs to start looking for alternatives.

    It also means that, for the same reasons as above, deploying the JDK+webstart on a corporate desktop is a challenge - not a technical one, but a political one.

    BTW, Rolf, have you actually written some real-world Winforms code yet? (I dont imagine you have even gone near writing any Swing code...)

    -Nick
  38. not for many years[ Go to top ]

    BTW, Rolf, have you actually written some real-world Winforms code yet? (I dont imagine you have even gone near writing any Swing code...)

    That is absolutely correct Nick. And not in any other language either.

    I realize that there still is a limited use for desktop apps but that have to be done by others.

    Just too fun working with the web..
    (but I have had the misfortune to use a number of Java desktop applications)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  39. nice work[ Go to top ]

    Eclipse on the other hand, was quite okay.
  40. Cameron look out!

    You are dangerously near the "Help Us To Defend The World From The Evil Microsoft" Scott McNealy type of stuff!

    Just want to help. (in view of our friendly association)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    "Hope you appreciate having the benefit of expert advice"
  41. save the whales[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "You are dangerously near the "Help Us To Defend The World From The Evil Microsoft" Scott McNealy type of stuff!"

    That's very interesting. I was just regurgitating from my studies in economics (one of my majors at university). So what you are telling me is that Microsoft fits a classic abusive monopolist pattern? Are you sure you want to make that claim in a public forum such as this?

    Let me give you some friendly advice: Microsoft is a big and powerful company. You and Scott should not go around bad-mouthing them and all that.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  42. "Now, assume that you are a business that is interested in replacing your Microsoft Windows box with a Linx box in a few years. How expensive is it to rewrite custom applications, buy new licesnes for existing 3rd party applications, port your data over, etc. The cost is probably 100x the cost of the actual product you are purchasing.

    So, a car manufacturer can not leverage an existing install base. But, Microsoft can.
    "

    If a business wants to migrate from a non-MS box to a MS box don't the same costs apply?
  43. Bundling[ Go to top ]

    It's not unfair any more than a car manufacturer bundling air conditioners, or cd players, or floor mats. Get real.


    The only reason it is an issue in this case is because Microsoft has a monopoly... otherwise nobody would care.
  44. I still don't see the issue[ Go to top ]

    Why is it an issue for MSFT to bundle the JRE?

    I'm building a VDE for Swing that can run as an applet. I use Mac OS X, so I often test on my friends PC's. I've found that some PC's come with good Java support. Primarily, HP machines seem to come configured for Java with good browser support. Of course, my Mac has great Java support.

    So, why isn't it up to the PC manufacturers to see that their machines have Java? Surely Gates can't strong arm them now in this regard.

    -Gary
  45. "'Once you bundle something with Windows, it gives an incredible advantage, and that IS unfair competition.'

    "It's not unfair any more than a car manufacturer bundling air conditioners, or cd players, or floor mats. Get real."

    You fail to take into account antitrust considerations. If GM controlled 95% of the auto market and bundled **their own** (not subcontracted) air conditioners, cd players, or floor mats, then they are closing the market to people who would seek to make those same items. The barrier to competition would also foster an environment where GM wouldn't need to provide very good air conditioners, cd players, or floor mats....they certainly wouldn't need to listen to the customers on what they want. To use the CD player in this example, GM could, throw in a CD player that plays a commercial between each track, or prevents you from playing copied CDs. The consumer could choose an alternate CD player, but due to the high cost of entry into the market, the product would be priced much higher than it would be in a competitive marketplace. If the alternate CD player were offered as a free option, then GM would be forced to make its CD player better so that the other player doesn't take over the market. They'd be forced to listen to their customers *and* do what they want.

    Funny how competition works like that, and that's why Java needs to have this order (or one like it).

    --Robert
  46. Car manufacturers used to not bundle things like acs, cd players, floor mats, trailer hitches, etc. Now they do. It allows them to make more money and is more convenient for the customer, and is most of the time cheaper. A lot of after-market sales and installation companies have been negatively effected. I know first hand from businesses owned by my family.

    If MS is doing what you say they are doing their products would already be very expensive; they are not. MS plays the game hard, and dirty, and according to the government illegally but I can't see how the consumers have been hurt. I think MS has been a great boon to the world economies and consumers. There is a great deal of choice in hardware and software for MS OSs BECAUSE of MS's OSs.

    "Funny how competition works like that, and that's why Java needs to have this order (or one like it)."

    Competition by the government propping up inferior products? Are tariffs also good for competition? Price controls????
  47. "If MS is doing what you say they are doing their products would already be very expensive; they are not. MS plays the game hard, and dirty, and according to the government illegally but I can't see how the consumers have been hurt. I think MS has been a great boon to the world economies and consumers. There is a great deal of choice in hardware and software for MS OSs BECAUSE of MS's OSs."

    MS makes an 80% profit margin on their products in a down economy. Their desktop products are overpriced, but they can get away with it because of who they are and how much of the market they control. Their monopoly status, and its adverse affects on the consumer market, are well documented in a number of court cases, notably the DOJ case and the California class action suit. Consumers have been hurt because they've been forced to pay higher prices.


    "'Funny how competition works like that, and that's why Java needs to have this order (or one like it).'

    "Competition by the government propping up inferior products? Are tariffs also good for competition? Price controls????"

    Are monopolies good for competition? consumer choice? consumer prices? Hint: no. no. no. Java needs the "must carry" order to overcome the distribution disparity and remove the barrier to competition embodied in that disparity.
  48. Endless bickering[ Go to top ]

    Big organizations with a lot of money are always sued, that is the way of the world.

    MS has a legal monopoly and has been clearly ruled to have not damaged any particular competitor simply because there wasn't/isn't any.
    Sun's Java and Netscape were explicitly ruled to have NOT been competitors and NOT ruled to have been damaged by MS actions.

    Java would be better today if Sun had let MS continue to develop their MS JVM. And AFC after all this years still easily beats Swing all over.

    If we ever shall stop this stupid fight the Java/Unix/Sun world have to stop this constant petty bickering and bashing of Microsoft and concentrate on their own products.

    MS have reached the position they have quite simple by being better, by having better management, corporate culture and staff.

    Consider their hiring policy:

    "I was an MS Intern several years ago. (And was a MacPhile and OSS proponent the whole time.) It was probably the single best work experience I've ever had.
    And that's even after I mention that my boss and I clashed at every turn and I ultimately got a "no hire" recommendation, pretty much blacklisting me from ever working there again. You can hate the way they do business, or their FUD marketing or whatever you want, but at the end of the day, working there is like being an endowed researcher at the coolest, most well-funded university on earth, where they only let in the uber-smart. It was easily the highest concentration of smart people I've ever had the pleasure of being around."

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=56507&cid=0&pid=0&startat=&threshold=5&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change

    And Sun:

    "A serious senior programmer - who has spent half his life time on making java the best is frustated with the new stupid generation of programmers SUN has hired in last 2-3 years.
    If you get a list of employees in SUN, u can draw a lot of Family Trees. This is all because SUN hired most of the programmers thro some reference or someone who is related to one of the employees without proper screening or interviews. Not only this but most of the sales force and marketing people are also like that. They spend more time in meetings or in gym and talk abt their weekend plans more than a stupid JVM memory leak.
    The lack of seriouness and aim to achieve higher is the main reason behind SUNs loss in last few quarters. Its like a illness which spreading across SUN."

    http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=17831#73715

    Nobody have done more for the world economies and consumers than Microsoft. Even if the situation was reversed - if Sun was 10 times bigger than MS, I still would put my all my money on MS.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  49. Endless fantasy[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "MS has a legal monopoly and has been clearly ruled to have not damaged any particular competitor simply because there wasn'tany. Sun's Java and Netscape were explicitly ruled to have NOT been competitors and NOT ruled to have been damaged by MS actions."

    I must have missed that particular ruling. Could you please provide a link to the official findings and/or rulings? The ones that I mistakenly read seemed to state very clearly and explicitly just the opposite.

    Or is that "clearly" and "explicitly" "ruled" simply your opinion? Please clarify.

    Rolf: "Java would be better today if Sun had let MS continue to develop their MS JVM."

    MS chose to stop JVM development because they did not like their contract. Could you please cite any references, including legal cases, that would indicate otherwise?

    (BTW - I agree that Java could have been better with Microsoft's continued involvement, but your opinionated psycho-babel warrants a reality check. Now Microsoft is helping to make Java better by competing against it. Not my preference, but whatever!)

    Rolf: "Nobody have (sic) done more for the world economies and consumers than Microsoft."

    I'm not sure that I would speak in such unsubstantiable superlatives, but in general I would agree that Microsoft has been a net positive for our industry, technology in general, and the economies of many states. That does not somehow imply that Microsoft should be above the law, does it? As Vanderbilt once said, "What do I care about the law. Ain't I got the power?"

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  50. pompous is only first name[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

    You know very well I do not answer you when you use word like "opinionated psycho-babel".

    And for making fun of occasional spelling mistakes - how many foreign languages do you speak yourself?

    This degrading to insults should be under your dignity, the vehemence only underscore your lack of arguments.

    Bye.
    Rolf Tollerud

    (good luck with your valiant efforts to help Sun)
  51. second request[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "This degrading to insults should be under your dignity, the vehemence only underscore your lack of arguments."

    Don't complain when people catch you making bogus assertions. Answer the questions.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  52. pompous is only first name[ Go to top ]

    If he's american, than he probably speaks a limited version of English. They don't even know that they have a lot of Latin in the language.
  53. americans[ Go to top ]

    DODO DODO: If he's american, than he probably speaks a limited version of English. They don't even know that they have a lot of Latin in the language.

    Guilty as charged. ;-)

    If you know English (or American), it is very hard to learn any other language, even if you want to. I studied French then went to France, but everyone felt so sorry for my terrible French that they spoke English (perfectly) to me. I studied German then went to Germany, but everyone felt so sorry for my terrible German that they spoke English (perfectly) to me. I even studied Latin then went to Latin America, but they couldn't understand my Latin at all. Go figure.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  54. latin americans[ Go to top ]

    <Cameron>
    I even studied Latin then went to Latin America, but they couldn't understand my Latin at all. Go figure


    Maybe because nobody speaks latin in latin america... we speak either Spanish or Portuguese (Brazil)...

    Don't write as fast as you think, I should say.
  55. Latin Americans[ Go to top ]

    "Maybe because nobody speaks latin in latin america... we speak either Spanish or Portuguese (Brazil)..."

    I guess you did not see Cameron's tongue firmly implanted in his cheek. Sheesh, has everybody lost their sense of humor? It's Friday, guys. Grab a beer and relax!

    Ryan
  56. TGIF[ Go to top ]

    <Ryan>
    It's Friday, guys. Grab a beer and relax!


    Best idea I've heard today

    Dan
  57. latin americans[ Go to top ]

    Henrique: "Maybe because nobody speaks latin in latin america... we speak either Spanish or Portuguese (Brazil)... Don't write as fast as you think, I should say."

    Hmm. That explains why there was no Latin being spoken. Latin truly is a dead language. ;-)

    (There's also a tiny sliver of Français parling.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  58. latin americans[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

    Mea culpa:-))). It was just a stupid joke. Sometimes I surprise myself with this kind of futile sarcasm that tends to overflow from some screwed inner self it seems I possess.
    PS: And about the beer. Niiiice idea(Floyd: Moosehead is good:-))))
  59. Endless bickering[ Go to top ]

    "clearly ruled to have not damaged any particular competitor"

    Rolf, what planet are you from?

    Jackson's ruling that antitrust violations and damages happened was upheld on appeal. Only the remedy was overturned.

    And what do you think the initial ruling that is the basis for this thread is? It is a ruling (at the federal circuit level) that found MS to have abused monopoly power against a competitor!

    That by itslef still has nothing to do with which product is better anyway.

    Where do you get this stuff?

    Jason McKerr
    Northwest Alliance for Computational Science and Engineering
  60. It is a little strange. After the ruling, the Java/Unix/Sun world was in totally uproar.

    Here are some 'headlines'...

    "Antitrust victory for Microsoft" - The Sacramento Bee

    "Microsoft wins antitrust battle" - the San Francisco Chronicle

    and

    "TechTV" reported:

    "...a victory for Microsoft cheered by investors..."
    (leading to a 'stock-market' rally for "Microsoft"
    stock).

    Many people are actually stating that:

    "Microsoft" has been "vindicated".

    And now some months later suddenly they are trying to change everything into "MS was deemed guilty"..MS was not deemed guilty of anything - it was a settlement.

    Antitrust is anyway so loosely defined that it really amounts to nothing more than being guilty of a political crime defined by whomever is in office at the time and looking to score political points.

    Why don't you comment on the corporate cultures of the two companies?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  61. Microsoft the CRIMINAL![ Go to top ]

    Read this official quote from the Official DOJ FINDING OF FACT. This means that it has been PROVEN in a court of law

    " the Court finds the following facts to have been proved by a preponderance of the evidence."

    Specifically the damages to both Netscape and Sun is in this section.

    "
     411. Many of the tactics that Microsoft has employed have also harmed consumers indirectly by unjustifiably distorting competition. The actions that Microsoft took against Navigator hobbled a form of innovation that had shown the potential to depress the applications barrier to entry sufficiently to enable other firms to compete effectively against Microsoft in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems. That competition would have conduced to consumer choice and nurtured innovation. The campaign against Navigator also retarded widespread acceptance of Sun's Java implementation.

    This campaign, together with actions that Microsoft took with the sole purpose of making it difficult for developers to write Java applications with technologies that would allow them to be ported between Windows and other platforms, impeded another form of innovation that bore the potential to diminish the applications barrier to entry. There is insufficient evidence to find that, absent Microsoft's actions, Navigator and Java already would have ignited genuine competition in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems. It is clear, however, that Microsoft has retarded, and perhaps altogether extinguished, the process by which these two middleware technologies could have facilitated the introduction of competition into an important market.
    "

    Read it and weep Rolf. Microsoft broke the law. In plain black and white. You are defending a bunch of dirty children-eating criminals. (BTW, the last comment was a joke.)

    http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm#vii
  62. Rolf,


    I just found the same web-page that you apparently found to spit this stuff out:
    http://www.scs.unr.edu/~raife/rants/final-ms-ruling.html

    That's a little embarrasing I should think.Did you actually read the rest of that page? You're just spouting stuff that you obviously don't understand legally or economically.

    I think you don't know much about antitrust economics or the law. They were, in fact, convicted. People say they "got away with it" because the remedy phase was so tame. It doesn't change the simple fact though that they were convicted. Maybe you should read the findings published by the courts here:
    http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/ms-conclusions.html

    Jason McKerr
  63. What is embarrassing with it?

    What that is really embarrassing (but not to me) is that neither you or anybody else has said one word about the difference in the corporate cultures..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  64. So you really want to know the difference between corporate cultures?

    Having been an employee of Sun, I hardly say that the quote you have made is representative of the culture. In any large company you are sure to find that there are people that are bitter - and that there are things like bureaucracies that get in the way of the "right" choice.

    Do I need to bring up that failed OS from M$? What the hell was it called? Microsoft Bob? Hehe.. what a joke. Maybe you should go talk to people in M$ that work on Hotmail. They totally think that M$ is bunch of morons and that any creativity they have is squashed immediately because it doesn't help the "platform". It's government work minus the good hours and vacations.

    The reason you hear stuff and have memos complaining about how this sucks or that should be done better boils down to this. People still give a crap about quality and the reputation of the company. They see something they don't like and aren't afraid that someone is gonna fire them because they stood up and said they didn't like what they were seeing.

    Sun gets things done by making sure that there is a healthy dialogue that exists throughout the company. Everyone is on first name basis. It's a place where you are supposed to check-in your ego along with your coat when you get down to work. That's what it is supposed to be about.

    There are massively intelligent people in Sun and it produces a culture of people that are willing to debate at all levels. While it can get heated - there is an underlying understanding - when pulled out of context it sounds like fighting - when used in context it is creativity. That's how Java was created in the first place. and Solaris. and vi. and LDAP. and SPARC. and XML. and NFS. Oh, didn't you know that stuff came from Sun?

    Oh wait. But Microsoft invented Windows. oh wait, they stole that from Apple who stole that from Xerox. But Microsoft invented .NET. oh wait, they stole that from Java. But Microsoft invented the Software Pricing model. ok. You got me there.

    Cheers,

    Rack
  65. There's nothing to say[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

        That's because there's nothing to say!! Corporate culture is not this nice little piece of paper that we can refer to and measure against others! Especially when you are speaking of two very large corporations such as SUN and MS. There are thousands of people working in these companies, and the *last* place I would look for some insight into these people's opinions of these companies culture is on slashdot or whatever flaming board you spawned this nonsense from.
        Rolf, it's true... people have caught you in generalizations. You'd do yourself better by cutting your losses and accepting the fact that your 6 previous posts' logic is at best fractured, and at worst, taken completely out of context and brought out as evidence to people who are both educated in economics and the recent MS vs. SUN ruling.
         You lose this one, Rolf... limp away from the battle knowing that you tried.

    ~Scott/Larry
  66. intelligent life at the Sun?[ Go to top ]

    Hi Scott,

    Okay, there are two issues here. The first one is the legal one, and I will take the trouble the read the real judgment (by Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, not that one who was dismissed), I admit that it was secondhand information, but I am confident in my source and as I said I will check it out.

    But the second issue is very real. If you followed my link to Slashdot you will find that almost everyone is very positive about Microsoft as a working-place. And that is so more amazing as Slashdot is the staunchest possible Java/Unix/Sun zealots on the planet. So in this case you can not use Slashdot bad reputation against me - it’s really the other way around.

    And of course I knew the situation at Microsoft already..

    At Sun you often can see the developers go two by two, you know why?
    One of them can read and write and the other enjoy intellectual company.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  67. Conservative vs. Cutting Edge[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

       Well, I won't trouble myself to comment on yet another generalization from you; we all know that there must be a large amount of very talented people working at SUN who do not rely on their cubicle-mate to interpret the English word for them.
       SUN MicroSystems devotes a proportionately high amount of their financial reserves to Research and Development. I know MicroSoft does too, but not to the extent that it is as much a "gamble" for Bill and Co. as it is for my namesake.
       If there are emotionally charged people who are screaming bloody murder as they are escorted off the SUN grounds, it is because the kind of people that define SUN MicroSystems are those that are extremely passionate about their work and their point of view. In contrast, and I admit I am guessing here, there are probably a LOT more people at MicroSoft whose sole purpose is the bottom line than there are at SUN. Getting fired or laid off from MicroSoft is not going to get as much attention because these unfortunate souls can achieve their financial goals with any company in their area, not just MicroSoft. It's just another day for the bean-counters that make MicroSoft the powerful financial entity that it is.
       I'm not criticizing MicroSoft, I'm just saying that SUN MicroSystems *seems* to place the innovative ideal at much higher stakes than MicroSoft. This is because SUN is not as large or wealthy as MicroSoft, so they have the leeway to adopt this attitude.
        Again, all of the above is a sweeping statement, but I figured there is no other way to address your consistent generalizations. I respect several people whom I know at MicroSoft, and I have no problem with them professionally. But SUN MicroSystems doesn't have the luxury of deciding not to fully address their operating system issues or software issues --- they must or they will meet their demise. If MicroSoft decides that it is too much trouble to fix software piece 'ABC', well who cares, their customer is bound to them anyway.
        That's culture for you....

    ~Scott/Larry
  68. Scott,

    I have to go to bed now. I admire your loyalty to Sun when so many is leaving the sinking ship. It's strange that it's possible to have so different views. For me Sun is the embodiment of evil - moreover - I never met any Sun guy who was not an arrogant idiot (except you, of course!). There is great joy and comfort in the knowledge that when Sun finally goes down, I have drawn my little straw to the stack.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  69. keep your degnity man[ Go to top ]

    "For me Sun is the embodiment of evil - moreover - I never met any Sun guy who was not an arrogant idiot (except you, of course!)"
         Man, you either are yourself arrogant or too ironic.It's true that sometimes guru's are arrogant but , definitely they are not idiots.
         As for Sun they have some great technologies and some screwed ones too, but that stands for every player in the game.
         I am a java developer but I admire Microsoft for their pragmatism: they make great technology to solve easy to moderate problems (as presumed they make up to 80% of the market), and sacrifice more complex scenarios based on economic wisdom (too much effort to get the extra 20% of the market, the high enterprise side)
  70. what a worthless waist of time[ Go to top ]

    At last I found the relevant document, at

    http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Lit11-1.pdf

    Here you are, Page 23:

    With regard to the first enumerated action, the incompatible JVM, the appellate court held that because the incompatible JVM did not have an anticompetitive effect which outweighed the procompetitive justification for the design, it could not provide a basis for antitrust liability.

    I have no more time to lay on this but I am sure that even the Netscape issue is here somewhere - if you bash me enough - (there were lots of hint and suggestions in this direction).

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  71. Rolf: At last I found the relevant document

    As if there is only one relevant document.

    Rolf: http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Lit11-1.pdf

    That isn't even the DOJ case. It is the nine states' separate suit. However, it shall more than suffice. Let's start with the introduction:

    "In United States v. Microsoft Corp., No. 98-1232 (D.D.C.), the federal government brought claims pursuant to federal law, while in State of New York, et al. v. Microsoft Corp., No. 98-1233 (D.D.C.), the Plaintiff States3 brought claims pursuant to both federal and state law.These two cases were consolidated, and following a bench trial in the consolidated cases, Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson concluded that Microsoft had violated §§ 1 and 2 of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1, 2, imposing liability for illegal monopoly maintenance, attempted monopolization, and unlawful tying. United States v. Microsoft Corp., 87 F. Supp. 2d 30, 35 (D.D.C. 2000). Correspondingly, Judge Jackson held that Microsoft had violated the state antitrust laws analogous to §§ 1 and 2 of the Sherman Act in each of the nineteen plaintiff states and the District of Columbia.4 Id. at 54. To remedy these findings of liability, Judge Jackson ordered the division of Microsoft into two separate corporations. United States v. Microsoft Corp., 97 F. Supp. 2d 59, 64 (D.D.C. 2000). Microsoft filed an appeal in both cases. On appeal, the D.C. Circuit deferred to Judge Jackson’s factual findings, Microsoft, 253 F.3d at 118, altered his findings of liability–affirming in part and reversing in part, and vacated the remedy decree, id. at 46."

    In other words, while the original judge's findings of fact, such as what Microsoft did that broke the law, were all upheld on appeal, the appelate court did not accept all of the remedies that Jackson had put into place.

    Rolf: Here you are, Page 23

    It's actually page 16 (the pages are conveniently numbered for us). What it says (in full) is just about the opposite of what you implied:

    "The appellate opinion recounts that the district court identified four steps taken by Microsoft to “exclude Java from developing as a viable cross-platform threat: (a) designing a [Java Virtual Machine (“JVM”)20] incompatible with the one developed by Sun; (b) entering into contracts, the so-called ‘First Wave Agreements,’ requiring major ISVs to promote Microsoft’s JVM exclusively; (c) deceiving Java developers about the Windows-specific nature of the tools it distributed to them; and (d) coercing Intel to stop aiding Sun in improving the Java technologies.” Id. Of these actions, the appellate court concluded that all but the first action were anticompetitive in violation of § 2. Id. at 74-78. With regard to the first enumerated action, the incompatible JVM, the appellate court held that because the incompatible JVM did not have an anticompetitive effect which outweighed the procompetitive justification for the design, it could not provide a basis for antitrust liability. Id. at 75."

    In other words, you looked through hundreds of available pages of documentation showing how Microsoft was found to have broken the law, how the verdict was upheld on appeal, and you extracted one confusing phrase that seemed to potentially agree with your position.

    I shudder to consider that there are people in this world that would read what you wrote and even give it the slightest credence. You should be ashamed of your deliberately dishonest actions.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  72. OMG![ Go to top ]

    Is it only me, or does this Rolf guy seems hired just to bash Sun and Java?

    Maybe he does it just for his own amazement.

    Either case, doing this in a Java specific message board grants us the right to label him as a Troll.

    And rule number one regarding Trolls in internet is: don´t feed them, and eventually they will fade away.

    Cheers!
  73. Wow[ Go to top ]

    It certainly seems as if Rolf has damaged his credibility in a permanent manner. And he seemed so intelligent!

    ~Scott/Larry
  74. what a worthless waist of time[ Go to top ]

    "the appellate court held that because the incompatible JVM did not have an anticompetitive effect which outweighed the procompetitive justification for the design, it could not provide a basis for antitrust liability. "

    Sorry, Rolf. This comes from the penalty phase, not the ruling. It does not say that Microsoft is innocent on the charge...it is saying that this item is not within the scope of what's being punished.
  75. windows users are impossible[ Go to top ]

    My good. I only been away for a little while and already the mouses are playing on the table.. I never knew that it existed so many amateur-lawyers on TSS!

    But as usual you forget the most important thing, well actually two things.

    For the first are you trying to turn the Kollar-Kotelly ruling into a big win for the Java side? Why then was everyone so totally upset with the ruling? Why so many headlines types "Big win for Microsoft"? Hmm.

    For the second you forget (sorry to repeat myself) this thing called proportions. The case is not that MS have done something wrong -like for instance the horrible crime of "deceiving the Java developers with extensions"(are they so easy deceived?), but the question is: how is MS moral compared to other companies?

    In this way MS is white as snow. Especially compared to Sun, Oracle and IBM.

    BG is a computer nerd as the rest of us - not an overage playboy like Larry Ellison or a pointed hair management clown like Scott McNealy.

    To force MS to carry JRE is ridiculous. How about updates? How about other companies that would want a free distribution channel? Should Sun have to bundle MS software? How is it possible to force a company to carry software from their worst enemy - capable of totally disrupting the whole OS?

    Nobody wants to run swing applications. Sorry - the windows users are little snobs in the matter of desktop applications.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  76. Alien on board[ Go to top ]

    Telecommunications have evolved a lot indeed: someone from another planet can even post on this forum, as having Rolf around here has proved us.

    And Cameron, I apologise, I didn´t mean to sound rude...

    Cheers!
  77. We get the point[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

       The argument concerning Swing is getting old. Most Java developers would probably agree with you that Swing needs to be improved.
       Does somebody from theserverside.com keep trolling the MicroSoft board complaining about things the way you do over here? It sounds like that might be the case, and perhaps this is your way of getting revenge or something?
       Your arguments on this message board are either way off base or about things that nobody wants to argue about.
       It's akin to me going on a MicroSoft message board and continually complaining about how Windows NT cannot handle multi-processing even though it is supposed to (with it's later SPs). Same thing as me pointing out to MicroSoft zealots that the publicly infamous security loopholes in all Windows operating systems cause companies to look down on the Windows operating systems. Or somebody constantly bickering about how Linux is more stable than Windows and blah blah blah....
       It's getting so old....

    ~Scott/Larry
  78. old arguments again[ Go to top ]

    Why I do it? I have explained that before Scott but we can go through this again.

    For the first for the entertainment.

    For the second I have to admit that I have a passion for the truth. And nowhere have I seen truth so mistreated and distorted as when the Java/Unix world talks about MS. And it is done in a conceited way that clearly implies that they actually fell superior to the folks at MS!

    So how could I resist? I am only human.

    There is a reason why I refer to Dr Semmelweis and why Sartoris Snopes use his alias (ever read William Faulkner's Barn Burning?).

    The third reason is the most weak but nevertheless exist. If I can stop even one innocent customer from falling into the Sun/Websphere/Oracle trap I feel like a scout - I have contributed to make the world a little better - call it "altruism".

    If there is any consolation for you I can tell you that I am actually restricting myself – following the maxim: "a little truth is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal" (if I’m allowed to misquote Oscar Wilde..)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  79. old arguments again[ Go to top ]

    |
    |For the second I have to admit that I have a passion for the truth.
    |

    The truth?

    You have a passion for cut & paste quotation, bold extrapolation, clutching at straws arguments, the proferring of uninformed opinion... and an undying love of Bill.

    But we still love you Rolf.

    -Nick
  80. A legend[ Go to top ]

    Rolf shouldn't get mad as we get down to his level so as to try to stablish communication, since anything serious we have said to him up to now he has just ignored. Maybe now he'll listen to us...

    One more thing: we're not blind. We're wearing sunglasses, just to look cool. It's good also, when sun is high, you know... 8-)
  81. half the month has gone[ Go to top ]

    I am glad you are taking it like good sports.. now we can enjoy ourselves until next month statistics!

    Regards
    Rolf (ninja) Tollerud
  82. MS white as snow???[ Go to top ]

    ...

    >...
    > The case is not that MS have done something wrong -like for instance
    > the horrible crime of "deceiving the Java developers with extensions"
    >(are they so easy deceived?), but the question is: how is MS moral
    >compared to other companies?
    >
    > In this way MS is white as snow. Especially compared to Sun, Oracle and IBM.
     
     http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/dirtytricks.shtml
     http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,108178,00.asp
     http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/28724.html
     and a lot lot more examples
  83. mistreated and distorted ..[ Go to top ]

    Thank you for helping me to illustrate my point!
  84. ninja boy[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: For the first are you trying to turn the Kollar-Kotelly ruling into a big win for the Java side? Why then was everyone so totally upset with the ruling? Why so many headlines types "Big win for Microsoft"? Hmm.

    Microsoft didn't overturn the case, but they did get to author their own sentencing, so it was a huge win for them. At least in the short term. In the long term, their inability to overturn the case means that companies (such as Sun) and consumers (e.g. California class action suit) can sue for damages, because the wrong (tort) has been proven in court and it withstood an appeal. The only other place it can go is the US Supreme Court.

    Rolf: For the second you forget (sorry to repeat myself) this thing called proportions. The case is not that MS have done something wrong -like for instance the horrible crime of "deceiving the Java developers with extensions"(are they so easy deceived?), but the question is: how is MS moral compared to other companies?

    Yes, when one of my two boys does something wrong, he will say, "but (the other boy) did it first" or "but (the other boy) did such-and-such". Which apparently, in the mind of a four year old, is a convincing argument for being allowed to do something that is wrong. Not "less right". Not "more right". Simply "wrong". However, even my four year old eventually realizes he can't get away with it and admits that he's wrong. Hint.

    So, just to be clear, the question is not, nor will it ever be, "how is MS moral compared to other companies".

    Rolf: "In this way MS is white as snow. Especially compared to Sun, Oracle and IBM. BG is a computer nerd as the rest of us - not an overage playboy like Larry Ellison or a pointed hair management clown like Scott McNealy."

    You need to make a Bill Gates fan page. Use this one as a template. Your logic is comparable.

    Rolf: "For the second I have to admit that I have a passion for the truth."

    You sure do. And you're not alone.

    Rolf: "So how could I resist? I am only human."

    Nonsense. You are a defender of the truth.

    Rolf: The third reason is the most weak but nevertheless exist. If I can stop even one innocent customer from falling into the SunOracle trap I feel like a scout

    No, not a scout. A ninja!

    Rolf: If there is any consolation for you I can tell you that I am actually restricting myself – following the maxim: "a little truth is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal"

    Please don't use your fatal powers on us.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  85. The truth comes out[ Go to top ]

    At the bottom of the web page that Cameron refers us to, we see the truth finally coming out.... Rolf Tollerud is a ninja. He lives in a dumpster a can be set off by the mere "...drop of a spoon..."

    "...This is a picture of my best friend Mark showing off. He's a lot older than me and almost done with puberty, which is bragable [sic]...".

    Thank you Cameron for the insight into the background of this strange and wonderful character we know as Rolf Tollerud. I guess Rolf didn't really grow out of the G.I.Joe phase. I can't blame him, I still have my Snake-Eyes figurine kicking around somewhere.

    ~Scott/Larry
  86. blushing..[ Go to top ]

    This is really too much, thank you, I am flattered. Thousands thanks to mom and dad and everybody who helped!
  87. shaddup rolf[ Go to top ]

    rolf shaddup and take M$ ass some where else.
  88. "MS makes an 80% profit margin on their products in a down economy. "

    Where does this figure come from? And what difference does it make?

    "Their monopoly status, and its adverse affects on the consumer market, are well documented in a number of court cases, notably the DOJ case and the California class action suit. Consumers have been hurt because they've been forced to pay higher prices."

    Don't confuse a court finding with fact. They have been found to be a monopoly in the legal sense. But they are not in a true economic sense. There are other operating systems for sale and for free. Consumers do have a choice.

    Consumers are never "forced" to pay anything. If something is really "overpriced" than a buyer would not buy.

    "Are monopolies good for competition? consumer choice? consumer prices? Hint: no. no. no."

    I agree with this statement but MS does not truly have a monopoly. There exists other choices; some free.


    "Java needs the "must carry" order to overcome the distribution disparity and remove the barrier to competition embodied in that disparity. "

    How in the world will the must carry rule remove a barrier to competition?
  89. "Where does this figure come from? And what difference does it make?"

    Look at their 10-K.


    'Don't confuse a court finding with fact. They have been found to be a monopoly in the legal sense. But they are not in a true economic sense. There are other operating systems for sale and for free. Consumers do have a choice.'

    Not if they want to run software coded to the Win32 API. Granted you have things like WINE out there, but you'll be hard-pressed to find any WINE developer who publicly endorses its use in a production environment. That means that if you want to run Win32 software, you have to purchase Windows. There is no choice there. (Note that for competitive purposes, abstaining from purchase is not a choice.)


    'Consumers are never "forced" to pay anything. If something is really "overpriced" than a buyer would not buy.'

    Not true. Consumers buy overpriced goods and services in the absence of competition. For example, Standard Oil fixed its prices, but the consumers bought it anyway because there was no other way to get gas. Microsoft fixed its prices on Office, but consumers bought it anyway because there was no other way to get their documents opened.


    "I agree with this statement but MS does not truly have a monopoly. There exists other choices; some free."

    The monopoly status is on the decline, and may eventually not be there, but it currently still has monopoly power on the desktop. As amply illustrated by others on this thread, Microsoft's bundling decision often determines whether something is installed on the desktop or not. .Net gets to get installed by being bundled with Windows. This distribution advantage is fundamentally anticompetitive because .Net will be installed based on what its bundled with, not how good it is. Java would require a lot more red tape to get through the door. It is only by allowing Java to carry the same distribution channel as .Net Framework that the barrier to competition can be removed. The products can then compete in the marketplace on merit, rather than bundling arrangements.
  90. Microsoft: Really a monopoly?[ Go to top ]

    Sartoris raises some valid (if controversial) points regarding letter versus spirit of the law, as well as pointing out that there is competition on the OS front some of which Microsoft can't hope to compete with on price.

    Plus, and I suspect this will elicit flames galore, we always have to be careful when taking the opinions of judges & juries at face value on complex issues. After all, if we always believe court decisions are absolutely true then OJ's neighbors don't have anything to worry about.

    ;-) (As I await the flames)

    It all comes down to two things: whose argument was better (admittedly, DOJ in the case of the trials because they won) and the definition of "monopoly". My argument has always been that, yes, MS did engage in anti-competitive behavior. But a true monopoly would have a stranglehold on the industry that barred any other entry (at least as far as I understand, educated lay person & nothing more). Well, if you look at the landscape then MS really isn't the all-controlling entity people fear. Looking at some key areas:

    1) Desktop OS: Far and away the market leader, but alternatives exist and WILL be gaining market share.
    2) Server OS: They are not the leader, they are trying to get into the data center/enterprise more with Windows Server 2003 (i.e., they're playing catch-up).
    3) Office Productivity: Far and away the market leader, but there have always been other players in this space and no one ever accuses MS directly of anti-competitive practices with this that I hear of.
    4) RDBMS: They're number 2 behind Oracle (who, I maintain to this day with Larry Ellison, would gladly assume control of the technical industry if given the chance :) In some instances, IBM beats them out here as well.
    5) "Enterprise" Development Platform: The term "enterprise" is in quotes because it's ambiguous enough to favor J2EE or DNA/.NET in particular instances. MS definitely isn't the leader here, but nor do I think they are light years behind Java either. I think they really balance at the end of the day.
    6) Internet Browser: Yeah, they've definitely done some no-no's here, but Netscape helped them by being a piece of crap for years and no one's denying that (still, BAD MS here).

    So it doesn't really look like "monopoly" in the traditional sense to me. Their breadth (and in some cases depth ;) and anti-competition behavior lead to an inaccurate portrayal of crushing dominence in all areas when that really isn't the case at all.

    Thoughts? Please, this is all in the sense of educated and fun discourse. Replies with mindless, rampant "M$" bile please refrain. It's all opinion, after all.

    Mike
  91. Microsoft: Really a monopoly?[ Go to top ]

    "4) RDBMS: They're number 2 behind Oracle (who, I maintain to this day with Larry Ellison, would gladly assume control of the technical industry if given the chance :) In some instances, IBM beats them out here as well. "

    If you count clusters as single units, then IBM beats them on licenses and revenue on RDBMS software. Oracle is #1 on revenue, with IBM a close #2, and Microsoft a distant #3. Licenses are a red herring, because one license of DB2 on a monster zSeries mainframe can do the work of a farm of SQL Server boxes. Personally, I like measurement by performance capacity, which eliminates pricing and system architecture as influences.

    "6) Internet Browser: Yeah, they've definitely done some no-no's here, but Netscape helped them by being a piece of crap for years and no one's denying that (still, BAD MS here)."

    Yeah, the MS apologists want to lay it all on Netscape's head for management mistakes, but the fact of the matter is that the company relied on license revenue from selling its browser to fund its development, and when MS started giving IE away, that strangled their business model. Companies with monopoly power can afford to do things like giving away a product to strangle a competitor.

    I wouldn't say it's all MS's fault, though. Netscape should have been more aggressive in pursuing advanced server software when the browser was still providing enough income to fund R&D. Then they might have been able to salvage the business after Microsoft's actions.
  92. situation different in Europe[ Go to top ]

    "Oracle is #1 on revenue, with IBM a close #2, and Microsoft a distant #3."

    In Europe, IBM is #1, and Oracle #2 but is just on the verge of being surpassed by Microsoft, according to Gartner.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  93. SUN should just stop cribbing now ..[ Go to top ]

    We as developers dont care abt what Microsoft does with the VM and all that stuff..
    when we use java , we use everything from sun JDK, SDK, JVM everything ... so sun should not worry abt it ... unless SUN is trying to come out with some reason for its own downfall.
  94. On the windows platform, Java on the client was never that hot anyway. Let Microsoft have the client. J2EE and Java is successfull for the server development and integration. Microsoft's is weak in this area. I am all for what is best for the industry. Web forms in IE making Web Service calls to back end J2EE objects.

    If Java wants to succeed on the client, why not use Eclipse and a client virtual machine for thick clients.

    Views are my own and not IBMs
  95. to all my fans..[ Go to top ]

    On further thoughts I have reached the conclusion that there exist yet another reason - to explain it I have to tell a true Viking story from the north of Europe..

    It was a man who was charged with chopping off the head of another man. And when he was asked by the "Ting" (gathering of elders) why he had done it he answered that it just was too tempting to not do so (the other man was in the process of tying his bootlaces). After conferring together he was judged "not guilty" by the Ting.

    The Java/Unix/Sun world is so defenseless, such an easy target, so absolutely unconscious of the real world that it is just impossible to resist. But I am not guilty!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  96. BEA and IBM doing nothing[ Go to top ]

    BEA and IBM doing nothing and simply depending upon Sun's efforts,I guess sharing is caring.It is high time that BEA,IBM and open source software providers like Apache,SourceForge and others shouls also support Sun in their efforts to promote Java.