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News: For the Love of Open-Source: JBoss Unveils Profit Sharing

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  1. For the Love of Open-Source: JBoss Unveils Profit Sharing (206 messages)

    • Posted by: j2ee master
    • Posted on: March 25 2003 17:00 EST
    JBoss Group today announced its first annual distribution of company profit sharing and economic interest options. The company offered economic interest options and, in many cases, cash bonuses to 37 developers of the open source JBoss application server based on contributions to the project in 2002 and earlier.

    JBoss Group subsidizes the development of their free application server with commercial activities which include training, support, consulting and documentation, and management of the JBoss software affiliates program.

    Said Marc Fleury, president of JBoss Group and founding developer of the JBoss application server, "The Compensation Plan is our way of rewarding the open source JBoss developers, whether or not they work for JBoss Group, giving them a stake in the company's future, as well as offering them cash awards based on annual profit-sharing,"

    Read JBoss Unveils Profit Sharing
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    Threaded Messages (206)

  2. Profits?[ Go to top ]

    Profits... sounds nice doesn't it.

    I want to find more, interesting these people make money, in fact throw it around?

    Got to love these open source idealists
    Reply to this Reply to original

  3. Profits?[ Go to top ]

    Wow that's interesting.. It is really a good news for the Open Source Developer community ( particularly JBoss). They are getting compensated for all their efforts.. :-)

    So JBoss LLC is trying to make "Open Source" a viable and sustainable alternative to commercial model.. Pretty interesting..

    If JBoss goes public tomorrow will it do the same thing ;) wish they do it..

    cheers
    ~murali
    Reply to this Reply to original

  4. One small step for Jboss....[ Go to top ]

    This is just the beginning of Marc Fleury turning into Alfred Chuang.

    No, it's not about money... it's about the principle of open source.

    Let's talk more about this interesting little factoid in about 3 years, when JBoss Corporation is listed on the NASDAQ.

    Hypocrites.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  5. JBoss hiring strategy[ Go to top ]

    FWIW I turned down the cash compensation and option offer because it was accompanied by one of the most arrogant, assumptuous and manipulative letters I have ever received. Basically, the "offer" was not an effort to reward me as a (previous) JBoss developer, but rather to force me into getting an economical stake in JBoss, the stated purpose of which was to make me join JBoss Group as a developer. This is certainly one way to do hiring, and I guess some people will have no problem with it, but I do.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  6. Did you ever know that you're my hero[ Go to top ]

    Rickard, I mean this seriously: You are my hero. Seriously.

    I admire your stance on this, and I challenge Marc Fleury to tell the world all about his efforts to taint your values, which are still shared by the rest of the open source world.

    Marc, here is my open letter challenge to you:

    1. How dare you take something that was good for the world and turn it into your own little enterprise for profit? How do you sleep at night?

    2. You are going to become rich and famous off of the backs of the other people who worked long and hard to make JBoss more than just another piece of software. The people who made JBoss did it because they wanted to revolutionize the industry, and they succeeded. JBoss and the efforts of its acolytes turned the EJB Container into a commodity. Again, how do you sleep at night knowing that you have stabbed the open-source community in the back?

    3. All this criticism about IBM and BEA selling a product that could otherwise be for free has just been invalidated by your actions. You singlehandedly set the open-source community back 15 years. How's that pillow? Blankets all comfy and all?

    4. Please don't insult our intelligence by replying to this post with some garbage about how this "profit-sharing" is a vehicle that will "enhance" the JBoss application so that it suits custom needs. This is just part of your master plan to make money off of free work. Is that a Serta?

    HYPOCRITE!!!!!

    Oh, how hard must Alfred be laughing now. How deep the chuckle in his larnyx.

    Marc Fleury, you are the Lando Calrissian of the IT world. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm outta Cloud City and off to Jabba's hole to free Rickard from the perma-freeze that Marc laid on him when he SOLD US OUT.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  7. Nothing bad about making money[ Go to top ]

    Colon,

    I don't understand your arguments. I've nothing to do with JBoss Group and I never met Marc personally, but I can say, that I really love JBoss and his BLUE whitepaper was the most interesting EJB and J2EE related paper I've read. In this paper he even shows respect to Rickard.

    I think OpenSource projects can't live without a company behind it. Why don't you write an open letter to MySQL AB for making money with MySQL? Why not IBM for developing and selling Apache HTTP, Eclipse...? What about Red Hat or Suse for making money with Linux? Or Sun for selling OpenOffice (Staroffice)???

    A lot of companies which will only switch to OpenSource products if they get professional services around it.

    So thank you to people like Rickard for there genius and ideas which are influencing the OpenSource community and my daily life. And thank you for people like Marc which are making "real" Software out of this ideas.

    I have to admit that I am jealous of people like Marc who are making money by realizing a developers dream...

    - Mirko -
    :wq
    Reply to this Reply to original

  8. Re: Nothing bad about making money[ Go to top ]

    Mirko,

    I agree that there's nothing wrong with making money from OpenSource. I personally think it's great that it is possible to have alternative ways to do business in the software industry.

    However, let's distinguish between theory and practice. The compensation plan is not really what it is said to be. In the words of Ghandi "I think it would be a good idea.", but that's all. The execution, and motivation behind it, is not really what they(/Marc) say it is, which is what I object to. JBoss Group has been doing many good things for the wrong reasons for a long time, but is now slipping into doing bad things for the wrong reasons. Enough is enough.

    As for "show respect to Rickard", that's not really true. There was a lot of ego pampering in that paper, for sure, but if he wants to really pay respect to me I'd prefer if he'd walk the talk instead of just talking the talk.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  9. Re: Nothing bad about making money[ Go to top ]

    Rickard,

    I believe that you are saying the truth and you're much more involved than I am, so I really can't say anything about the motivation behind the compensation plan. For an outstanding person it seems quite fair that developers are getting paid for their work. If they want to tie the developers to the JBoss Group and make them employees, I've to agree that this is not the right way for an OpenSource project.

    Anyway, JBoss is really a nice piece of software and I am looking forward to see version 4 and the AOP features of it...and if JBoss Group directs the whole project in a bad direction, the community and thought leaders like you have the chance to move the power to a new project...

    - Mirko -
    Reply to this Reply to original

  10. Re: Nothing bad about making money[ Go to top ]

    This is a pretty good news to serious developers contributing to opensource software and espcially for a great product.

    Struggling small scale vendor(s) should take business lessons from Mark Fluery!


    Manoj Shirke
    India
    Reply to this Reply to original

  11. Re: Nothing bad about making money[ Go to top ]

    Nothing bad about "taking control", "be the first to register the name", tone down the contribution of others" etc..

    No. It is "smart". Even "clever".

    I can even concede that I might have done the same thing in similar circumstances!

    However, follow my advice:

    Don’t boast about it.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  12. Re: Nothing bad about making money[ Go to top ]

    In the words of Ghandi "I think it would

    >be a good idea.", but that's all.

    Rickard,
    Just a minor correction. His last name was Gandhi and not Ghandhi.

    Parag
    Reply to this Reply to original

  13. who is Ghandi ?[ Go to top ]

    Rickard Oberg
    >>In the words of Ghandi "I think it would be a good idea.", but that's all.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  14. that was my own feeling[ Go to top ]

    I am happy I have contributed to make somebody a little less naive and innocent.

    "I even prefer Stallman to the JBOSS group, But if it is any organization that is really unpleasant to me, both for their totally ridiculous marketing and claims as well as midrange programming drones that buy into their money machine, then it is the JBOSS group -"
    http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=18411#77071

    "sorry to be so cynical..
    I am not talking about the technical things (that is another discussion, lets just say - We are not impressed). I mean the whole sham operation - to make people- drones or not - work and contribute without pay - helping the founders and their family to get rich by building a privately owned company. It also includes taking away credit from the gifted people that helped them getting started. "It was not really that important and anyway everything is new code now"..It also includes the claims - "we have 40% of the market" - our EJBs speeds up performance by a factor of 10 – etc etc."
    http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=18411#77084

    BTW, the citation "It was not really that important and anyway everything is new code now"..was about Rickard Öberg directly here in TSS

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  15. Perspective[ Go to top ]

    Colon,
    Please update us on those illustrious contributions you've made to open source that are fueling your rant. As for Rickard Oberg, he must have a chip on his shoulder against all his former employers because I for one could not forget his vicious tirade against the ServerSide for all things--their promotional gift (tivo was it?) for developers who sign up for their training. He seems to have personal issues with people who pay him money.
    /Chip
    Reply to this Reply to original

  16. finally someone speaks up[ Go to top ]

    I cant say how happy the comments in this thread made me. I was starting to think I'm the only one who doesnt like this pr guy who gets people to code for free for him (but if they really want to contribute something they better take the training before, great!).
    :D chris
    Reply to this Reply to original

  17. What stops you from making money too??[ Go to top ]

    Hi Colon,

    I don't see what stops you from making money from JBoss too.

    Actually if you start doing it, the community is only going to benefit from it.

    Regards,
    Yuri
    Reply to this Reply to original

  18. Agree with Rickard's Comment[ Go to top ]

    Here is another fan of Rickard who agrees Rickard's comment. One more point I like to add is that, I predict that in the future, we will be getting a free "Base" version of JBoss with every other add-ons, or other versions like "Workgroup" or "Enterprise" being commercial. Red Hat is doing that, isn't it?

    Marc, with your experience, why don't you write your own version of application server from scratch and compete with the rest of the big guys? This way, we know your intentions from the get go and the developers who want to get pay can join your project as they so choose.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  19. JBoss = Betrayal of Open Source[ Go to top ]

    Rickard, how refreshing it is to see someone like yourself take a stand and refuse to take money or stock from Marc Fleury. I was sickened in this post dot-com era to see language like stock options associated with open source. I would hate to see JBoss turn into another BEA as the appeal of open source is as an alternative to American hegemonic software monopolies and a way for the rest of the world to get great software without sending our hard-earned currency to IBM, Microsoft or Sun. At a time when American military aggression is so rampant, it is also important to take a stand against American economic aggression. By the way, does the CIA still follow you when you visit the US?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  20. What a joke[ Go to top ]

    At a time when American military aggression is so rampant, it is also important to take a stand against American economic aggression.


    What are you talking about? Marc Fluery is French, not even American. Get your facts right, man. Just can't wait to slip in your world view into this discussion can you?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  21. What a joke[ Go to top ]

    Completely agree. Not the place for that kind of statement.
    On principal, I don't see what the problem is with making money with open source. I think it is naive to think that this isn't already happening. IBM has engineers dedicated to multiple open source projects as do others. Open source projects are being folded into countless commercially vended products. And people have to eat :-)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  22. Non-fiction[ Go to top ]

    I just wanted to say that I like non-fiction. But, we're living
    in a time of fiction, with fictious J2EE compliance claims from
    a fictious "open source" bandwagon-driven company headed by a
    fictious "American." Shame on you!

    I wonder where the Pope or the Dixie Chicks stand on this issue?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  23. Non-fiction[ Go to top ]

    As far as I know, the only "real" Americans are the Amerindians--So appropriation is part of the national heritage.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  24. fiction is better[ Go to top ]

    As far as I know, the only "real" Americans are the Amerindians--So appropriation is part of the national heritage.

    We all came from somewhere, including "native americans," who came across the Bering Strait a long time ago, as you should know from anthropology.

    Very (very) few peoples are in the same place that they were ten thousand years ago.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  25. proportions anyone?[ Go to top ]

    It is dangerous to say that here. There will guaranteed be somebody that thinks that a few hundred years is the same as 10.000 year ago.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  26. Re: proportions anyone?[ Go to top ]

    Is that ten years precise to three decimal places?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  27. Non-fiction[ Go to top ]

    "the only "real" Americans are the Amerindians"

    Don't get too sentimental. The American indians were constantly killing each other and appropriating things belonging to to others.

    I'm guessing that you believe in evolution; so using your argument, humans "appropriated" earth from the other lifeforms.

    Ugh, I'm wracked by guilt!

    Oh yes. The French were early settlers of Florida. They were attempting to appropriate the New World for themselves. The indians in Florida, however, helped the French show their true colors. Those "Amerindians" sent the French running with tails between legs.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  28. Back on subject[ Go to top ]

    Can we forget the 'who was in the North America when' discussion. I'm sure there's some other discussion board out there where those who wish can rant about that subject to their heart's content. Personally it's not my thing.

    How about we discuss JBoss profit sharing?

    For what it's worth, here's my opinion. JBoss is still open source so I think it's a bit soon to describe JBoss/Marc Fleury turning into BEA/Alfred Chuang. There are a lot of companies out there wary of using JBoss without some kind of consulting being available. If someone wants to charge for that, then that's fine with me. You don't have to buy it if you don't want it.

    Things could change. In the future, JBoss may no longer be the open source wunderkind it is sometimes hyped to be. At that point I'm sure we can all start complaining again. I'd rather worry about that later when/if that happens.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  29. Onwards[ Go to top ]

    I would answer all of the questions on this thread so far that as "Gee, what's wrong with making money from JBoss" but there are already so many posts that answer why.

    My beef with Marc is that the JBoss website castigates all the big companies like MS, IBM, BEA, etc for being so evil and making all this money, when, in the end, Marc Fleury is NO DIFFERENT.

    There is now no difference between JBoss and these companies, because Marc Fleury has brought money to the equation. Marc wants to get paid on JBoss, and it won't stop with services. SOon Marc will get greedy and want to charge for other things about JBoss. This is so obvious, I'm not just going to sit back and pretend I don't see it.

    HOw is JBoss like BEA?

    1. BEA pays for developers to make their product. So does JBoss.
    2. BEA has professional services. So does JBoss.
    3. BEA has a support team answering the phones. Uhhh, Hmmm...
    4. BEA/IBM are in the entire Fortune 500. Uhhh, hmmmm...

    SOunds like to me that JBoss turns its face to the public and tells everybody how great the world will be if the big bad companies would just stop charging money for software, then guess what? JBoss does the same thing, but in this case it's "economic promotional profit-sharing" or whatever the heck Marc's PR person wants to call it.

    I call it BENEDICT ARNOLD. Marc, you make me sick.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  30. Onwards[ Go to top ]

    Apple to Oranges. If you want to convict the JBoss group morally for actions that you see them performing in the future, then by all means please pick by ncaa pool for me :-). Otherwise, there is a clear distinction. So many companies big and small who provide commercial products make so much many on the consulting and professional services side that at times it makes more sense for them to have mediocre/bad/overly complex systems so that they can ride the pso train to kingdom come. BEA/IBM/etc don't offer the software for free. Agreed if JBoss follows a pay as you go model (x for servlets, 2x for servlets + ejb, 3x for clustering, etc.) then I would whole heartedly agree.

    Even then, you don't have the visibility into the product that open source provides and must rely on documentation and a good decompiler :-).

    For developers who work at co's big and small who might be cash constrained for whatever reason (economy, bad mgmt), a product like JBoss starts to make more and more sense. Do you really need support and pso's if you have the source code and the user community? probably not, unless you are lazy.

    Regardless of any beefs that people might have with personalities, I just think that the whole JBoss bashing is getting old and tired. Does Linus not have a right to earn $ consulting to companies using/developing Linux? Does Ted Husted not have a right to write and charge for book on Struts/Tiles? As long as the code is free, stop the bitch*ng please.

    My 2 cents.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  31. Onwards[ Go to top ]

    I agree with the parent post. People would be comparing JBoss to BEA accurately if BEA's software was open source. But it's not. Congrats to Marc for building a viable software company on open source. They won't make boatloads of money like BEA, since they aren't charging for licenses, but they'll get by, and even get to reward each other occasionally.

    Steve
    Reply to this Reply to original

  32. This has really degenerated[ Go to top ]

    Oh puh-lease, the last thing we need is another thread that degnerates into a personality conflict between two OS superstars who haven't had their ego massaged properly or the chiming chorus from every jealous two-bit blogging developer or the communist open source contingent.

    JBoss is about a value proposition. If JBoss Group wants to reward their developers, who appear not to be all American or employed by JBoss Group, more power to them.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  33. Onwards[ Go to top ]

    BEA Charge 350$+/hour + Car + Flight charge + Hotel from client for their professional service. Most of their PS members were dump ass (Latest data not available). The guy who works in BEA Professional service got 82k annual salary and stock options in every six month for his hard work. LATER BEA laid-off everybody without even publishes laid-off details. Those who got laid off got nothing. Alfred made money out of it and he is enjoying life.

    I haven't worked much in JBoss, but if JBoss have a good plan in Hand and ready to share real money instead of shares and promises, I am ready!!!!

    TQ
    Reply to this Reply to original

  34. BEA Services[ Go to top ]

    I just need to point out that the data presented by TQ about BEA is not correct in regards to services, salary, and any RIFs we may have had.

    We offer a compelling services offering and also have a very strong partner community of SIs that also have BEA practices that our customers can leverage. Our consulting rates vary based upon the job function of the individual. Additionally, there are tiered consulting and support packages that a company can get. These packages are designed to provide tailored services to meet the wide variety of needs of our customer base.

    It'll be interesting for a company to do a true TCO analysis between major vendors and open source. This company would need to factor total cost of hardware, services, licenses, internal labor cost. We all know that this is difficult to do.

    However, when doing a TCO argument, companies will find that the open source vs. vendor decision isn't clear cut. I can quickly point out one very minute element: training. I'm not to force any conclusions here, but at a glance you can see that there is clear differentiation between BEA Education Services and those offered from JBoss Group. This differentiation is a factor in any corporate adoption decision.

    JBoss Group:
    1) 3-4, 5-day instructor-led courses
    2) $3250 / individual
    3) Multiple cities sporadically available
    4) Training done by Marc and other key engineers -- may or may not be an advantage
    5) Course developed by other JBoss Group members
    6) Don't know about formal training needs assessment program, so can't quantify.

    BEA:
    1) Dozens of ILT, WBT, blended-elearning offerings
    2) $3000 / individual
    3) Public enrollments offered in 50 cities WW on a very regular basis, local language teaches available in multiple countries, especially in APAC
    4) Training done from a pool of over 150 certified instructors with an average of 15 years of development experience AND 5 years teaching experience.
    5) Courseware developed by a staff of specialized technologists with experience in instructional design and enterprise technologies ensuring that product training isn't given, rather solutions training.
    6) Offers Training Needs Analysis for organizations to facilitate mass assessment of skill / gap analysis with technology courseware mapping.
    7) Offers official mentoring program with structure, process and thought out approach to facilitating transfer of knowledge.

    Tyler
    Director, BEA
    Reply to this Reply to original

  35. BEA Services[ Go to top ]

    I am not here for an argument. I am talking from my professional life!. Some people here in serverside.com know who I am and who are my previous employers. So I might be talking about my past employment history. Anyway, I am not for any more arguments and I know some of these people want personally attack on me. Anyway good-bye. By the way, if JBoss have such a plan in place, I will look forward to work with them, some how I could able to drag a multi millions dollars worth project bid in Hanover Germany in favor of my previous employers from IBM. What I have received after 2 months is a laid-off notice. I am sure; I can make good money from anything I touch even though I am not more working with the big firms.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  36. BEA Services - TCO?[ Go to top ]

    I had to chime in and refute Tyler's claim of the TCO of BEA versus open source. We see this FUD a lot of places. They might be able to win on nice gui's and an integrated platform but price?

    Let's use a simple example for a large enterprise application and do an analysis of BEA TCO vs JBoss TCO. To give you the benefit of the doubt we will average this over three years.

    Let's ammume 100 deployment CPUs, 12 Test, 12 Staging, and 20 developers.

    Total cost of JBoss = $27,000 for onsite training for all 20 students, $10,000 for support annually for 50 hours. Then let's add the 100 CPUs of Linux boxes using high end HP 4 ways at $18,000 each. Total cost of JBoss plus hardware = $195,000 per year for three years. You get support from the core developers and training from the source as well.

    Total cost of BEA = $10,000 per CPU (non Clustered)total of 124 CPU total = $1,240,000, $60,000 for training and HP 4 ways at $18,000 each. Never talk to core developers and training from people who have never written a line of code in their lives. Don't forget 20% of list for annual support and maintenance MANDATORY! Total cost of BEA = $867,333 / year for BEA.

    Now let's take the hardware out of the equation.

    Total cost of JBoss $57,000 over three years
    Total cost of BEA $2,044,000

    So in this model BEA is roughly 35 times more expensive. Mind you JBoss support and training are completely optional. IF we want to add more support nto the JBoss price, not a problem, make it $50,000 per year. We are still looking at

    $177,000 for JBoss
    $2,044,000 for BEA

    Don't forget I did not include the cost of Workshop either, I am assuming BEA is giving that away to the 20 developers. Additionally, ALL JBOSS SUPPORT SERVICES ARE OPTIONAL. REPEAT, you do not have to pay us a dime if you choose not to.

    In general, I think BEA has a good product and they were a leader the emerging market. The dynamics of the market are changing. Commodity based computing is upon us. How can you explain the following.

    Cost of dual CPU Zeon Box from HP 12K, Cost of BEA to run this 20K (non Clustered). If you use Dell boxes at 4K a pop, your software to run your hardware is 5X more expensive. That model will not sustain itself going forward.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  37. BEA Services - TCO? Forgot[ Go to top ]

    To sign this,

    Ben Sabrin
    Director JBoss Group,
    Reply to this Reply to original

  38. Ben Jurino from JBoss is back ...[ Go to top ]

    with his patented crapola ... and very conveniently forgetting to disclose his true identity. Ben, isn't it enough that your beloved jboss got a real drubbing here over the so-called royalty ponzi scheme to make Fleury a rich man at other people's expense? Who do I call at 1AM for support when my 24x7 application goes down? Marc F? you (hopefully NOT)? the zillion people who wrote the code? Gimme a break, jboss just doesn't cut it for real world apps.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  39. JBoss in missionb critical systems.....[ Go to top ]

    read for youself....
    http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/2109641

     But I guess telecom provisioning systems are not real world systems.

    Here are some highlights....
    The application ran for several years on a commercial application server - Shifrin won't say which one -- but over time, says Shifrin, "we grew increasingly dissatisfied with our commercial vendor, for lots of reasons, including support, product quality and license restrictions."

    With management's approval, JBoss was put into production last December, running on a large Unix server. So far, says Shifrin, "it's been rock solid, and I don't think our users are aware that anything has changed."

    One change that Shifrin appreciates -- as much or more than the fact that JBoss is available at no cost -- is the lack of licensing headaches. "If we wanted to move from a four-processor to an eight-processor machine with the commercial app server," he says, "we had to go through a time consuming WorldCom procurement cycle to upgrade the license. From my point of view, what's important is not that the software is free, it's that we're free to use it as we like."
    Reply to this Reply to original

  40. Congratulations![ Go to top ]

    How fantastic - JBoss has got another reference! With the other four references on their site it is now five!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  41. Are you all jealous or?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf.... stop whining.... open your mind instead

    Don't know so much about Scott but Marc Fleury and his gang and especially Rickard Öberg has made soooooo much for the Java comunity and if you don't get it then wake up!!!! Rickard might have strange ideas but he really is open minded...

    And what the fud about JBoss fifth reference.... are you living in a cave in the middle of nowhere and just got Internet....

    Ok, I agree with JBoss having some difficulties to spread the voice of how many actually using JBoss in production, but that is also our fault as JBoss developers. Theire site isn't the best of sites i've seen but... Someone above comment that it is a hard time to find documentation.... you can't have been on the site or you are completly blind!

    /L
    Reply to this Reply to original

  42. My fault![ Go to top ]

    Lennart,

    And what the fud about JBoss fifth reference

    That is correct. To my defense, I have to say that it is more than one year since I visited the site. But when i look today, I see that they have not four – but seven references!

    My deepest apologies.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  43. My fault![ Go to top ]

    Lennart,

    >
    > And what the fud about JBoss fifth reference
    >
    > That is correct. To my defense, I have to say that it is more than one year since I visited the site. But when i look today, I see that they have not four ? but seven references!
    >
    > My deepest apologies.
    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    Apologies accepted :)

    But as I said.... I'm not so happy with the JBoss site - it is not the best one I've seen and it should definitly have more references and use cases online. It is up to us developers AND JBossGroup to give them that material...

    I KNOW that JBoss is being used in production in more places then what is mentionend on their site!

    /L
    Reply to this Reply to original

  44. JBoss Website[ Go to top ]

    <Lennart>
    I'm not so happy with the JBoss site - it is not the best one I've seen and it should definitly have more references and use cases online. It is up to us developers AND JBossGroup to give them that material
    <Lennart>

    I could not agree more. I think the JBoss web-site needs to lose the overly busy "video game" styling (the logo especially) and opt for something more conservative and professional. At the moment the web-site design seems to get in the way of finding information, and I think most developers want content, not style. Marc Fleury does not seem to want the corporate image, but if JBoss is going to be taken seriously be the large corporates it does need to adopt their style externally.

    Personally I am keenly anticipating JBoss4 - the Aspect Oriented Framework technology definitely sounds like the future for server-side development. Lets hope it lives up to the hype.

    Regards,
    Lawrie
    Reply to this Reply to original

  45. JBoss in missionb critical systems.....[ Go to top ]

    read for youself....

    > http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/2109641
    >
    >  But I guess telecom provisioning systems are not real world systems.
    >
    > Here are some highlights....
    > The application ran for several years on a commercial application server - Shifrin won't say which one -- but over time, says Shifrin, "we grew increasingly dissatisfied with our commercial vendor, for lots of reasons, including support, product quality and license restrictions."

    Sure. If you choose the wrong app server vendor, I can see such a problem.

    >

    > With management's approval, JBoss was put into production last December, running on a large Unix server. So far, says Shifrin, "it's been rock solid, and I don't think our users are aware that anything has changed."

    "With management's approval". Of course, as long as the management does not have to pay the high initial cost of acquisition, and the yearly maintenance support. If the users are aware of the change by swapping out the underlying app server, the applications themselves are not well written and not to J2EE specs, relying on proprietary features.

    >
    > One change that Shifrin appreciates -- as much or more than the fact that JBoss is available at no cost -- is the lack of licensing headaches. "If we wanted to move from a four-processor to an eight-processor machine with the commercial app server," he says, "we had to go through a time consuming WorldCom procurement cycle to upgrade the license. From my point of view, what's important is not that the software is free, it's that we're free to use it as we like."

    Again, that is initial convenience for the tech staff. Afterall, it is a company that has file for Chapter 11. I wish them luck for supporting it. It should not be too hard if they are running it on one machine. Again, they are using it for monitoring, not for ecommerce purposes. What is they uptime requirement for this particular application?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  46. Ben Jurino from JBoss is back ...[ Go to top ]

    Who do I call at 1AM for support when my 24x7 application goes down? Marc F? you (hopefully NOT)? the zillion people who wrote the code? Gimme a break, jboss just doesn't cut it for real world apps.


    Second that. It can easily take a month to see a bug fixed in the open source community if you don't want to pay for support, since the coder who wrote bad codes don't work for you, you cannot hold him responsible. And you? Even if I have a service contract with the JBoss Group, do you think you can fix the problem? You may get a patch that is hacked up to plug the hole because you cannot escalate the problem all the way up to the designer or the architect if he does not work for your organization.

    Recently, I have been inteviewing with many local organizations. Many developers in these organization claim that the app server is such a commodity, they can just simply use JBoss and why pay for commercial app server? In reality, they write simple applications for 4 to 5 users, which doesn't require 24x7 operation without clustering. Some of them write applications that would only run applications for couple of months and then throw the apps and rewrite the applications again after the clinical trials are over and new ones come around. For goodness sake, they don't even have to support the applications or the app servers. Most of these developers are past VB programmers or have been in the industry for couple of years and suddenly they are the java experts. They were able to convince their management to use JBoss for their so-called production servers. To me, these are toy applications.

    For these developers, the only way they will learn to appreciate the need for commercial app servers is to make them support their own applications and address the availability and managability of their applications and underlying app servers.

    Don't get me wrong. JBoss has its place in this industry. I use Jboss as a learning tool and for small non-critical projects. I will be very hesitant to use it for real enterprise applications where require 24x7 uptime, or for the millitary.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  47. JBoss[ Go to top ]

    You're not going to get very far with JBoss if you're scared to look at the code. If you're not going to, there's really no reason to consider an open source solution at all.

    There will be some things that you will come across that you'll have to do yourself. That's the nature of open source. Odds are, you will wait longer on someone else in open source to fix it than a similar problem for a closed source app.

    Now, if you pay someone else to fix it, then it's going to be a wash. A JBoss consultant writing custom code for you is about the same cost as a Weblogic consultant. Which one will finish sooner with fewer billable hours is another question.

    But don't go into an open source solution thinking it's a shrink-wrapped absolutely done thing. WebLogic will do better for you in that is what you're expecting, but even their solution isn't 100% perfect. What else is new?

    One thing that's hard to do is that with free software, we have the option of clustering at a reasonable level. The costs of doing something similar with a closed-source product are prohibitive.

    In the end, you need multiple levels of failover, and if you're calling someone at 1am because you had a single point of failure, that's probably your own fault.

    Steve
    Reply to this Reply to original

  48. Why should JBoss offer you free support?[ Go to top ]

    Keith,

    I do not quite understand the points you were trying to make in your post...

    <Keith>
    It can easily take a month to see a bug fixed in the open source community if you don't want to pay for support, since the coder who wrote bad codes don't work for you, you cannot hold him responsible.
    <Keith>

    Are you suggesting that just because JBoss licences are free that you should also get support for free? Just because, by most accounts, JBoss will quite often sort out customer's issues for free if you email them does not mean that they have any responsibility to do so. JBoss is open source, and it is free. If you want a guaranteed level of support with open source software then you will always have to pay for it, just like you would with any commercial vendor.

    <Keith>
    Even if I have a service contract with the JBoss Group, do you think you can fix the problem? You may get a patch that is hacked up to plug the hole because you cannot escalate the problem all the way up to the designer or the architect if he does not work for your organization.
    <Keith>

    If you have personal experience with JBoss's support then please feel free to share it. However, please do not speculate or make assumptions about the quality of JBoss's support contracts if you have not ever experienced them. This is just spreading FUD.

    From what others have posted at TheServerSide and elsewhere it would seem that JBoss's paid support is of a high quality. I would be interested to hear from people with experience of both a commercial EJB container vendor's paid support and JBoss's paid support. Which have you found superior? From my experience with the majority of commercial vendor's that I have dealt with I would be most surprised if JBoss's were worse...

    I am not sure why you think you are more likely to "get a patch that is hacked up to plug the hole" with JBoss's support than with a commercial vendor? I very much doubt that any vendor is going to release a new version of their product just to fix your issues... However, being open source JBoss makes far more frequent releases of their product than the commercial vendors, so I would suggest that you are more likely to have your issues fixed sooner. IMO you are also at least as likely to be able to escalate your problem to the designer or architect with JBoss than with the majority of commercial vendors - one of the benefits JBoss tout for their support package is that support requests are looked at directly by the people who have designed/coded the relevant part of the product. What has lead you to a different conclusion?

    Regards,
    Lawrie
    Reply to this Reply to original

  49. what about j2ee compliance?[ Go to top ]

    Ben Jurino, cost isn't the only factor. You folks aren't even certified, for chrissakes.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  50. what about j2ee compliance?[ Go to top ]

    Have to agree too. Not to mention some of the features are not implementation. I am not sure how Jboss is going to be certified. One particular feature that I have been waiting on is the J2ee client application container. JBoss has its own way of connecting the swing client to the EJB container following the specs.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  51. BEA Services - TCO?[ Go to top ]

    Let's be clear. BEA including myself are very careful not to spread FUD. I did not do a TCO analysis, nor did I state that BEA had a better TCO (please read my text above again). What I said was that companies who attempt to do TCO analysis with open source will find it to be multi-dimensional and challenging to come up with a single number. There are too many non-financial factors in a vendor decision that have to somehow be correlated into a financial number in order to do a complete TCO. It's this multi-dimensional facet to any business decision that requires myself and the rest of BEA to be careful in the information we communicate. Why? Well, we want to disseminate information that helps with decision making rather than further confusing the market.

    However, I feel that there are increasing inaccurancies communicated about BEA. I also see a number of "passionate" attacks at BEA implying that our technology, services and reputation are substandard without supporting data.

    Simply put: Ben's analysis is straightforward, but not comprehensive. Any TCO analysis is multi-dimensional spanning a range of factors that encompass what Ben points out, but so many other aspects as well:

    Partner ecosystem, number of certified partners, # certified developers;
    24/7 localized support;
    Certifications of the code base on different OS, hardware, JVMs, networks;
    Certifications of the code base against J2EE;
    Sales and marketing relationship with key executives in firms;
    Cost of outsourced development of projects (Carly Fiorina says it avgs 6X license costs);
    Commitments and guarantees on backwards compatibility and future feature sets; Developer community & programs;
    Integrated portal, development, integration technologies.

    For deployments that run in a data center, with 100s of nodes, zero down time, massive integration requirements and/or with the absolute tightest security will look at many more factors than just license cost.

    FYI, Ben's numbers on BEA license + hardware aren't comprehensive or real-world. He picked one of our licenses and the list price for that license, but we have many more options to meet the need of a wide clientele. Also, as with any company there are volume discounts because BEA will make sure to offer a fair price for a complete solution that encompasses all of the factors I listed above, not just the license cost.

    JBoss is an open source application server with a competitive advantage of having free license costs. Is this competitive advantage enough to capture 10% market share? Only a crystal ball can say for sure. However, if license costs were the primary consideration for decision making at companies, then I would wonder why Orion, JRun, Pramati and a number of other low or no cost app servers don't already have that marketshare.

    Tyler
    Reply to this Reply to original

  52. BEA Services - TCO?[ Go to top ]

    Let's be clear. BEA including myself are very careful not to spread FUD. I did not do a TCO analysis, nor did I state that BEA had a better TCO (please read my text above again). What I said was that companies who attempt to do TCO analysis with open source will find it to be multi-dimensional and challenging to come up with a single number. There are too many non-financial factors in a vendor decision that have to somehow be correlated into a financial number in order to do a complete TCO. It's this multi-dimensional facet to any business decision that requires myself and the rest of BEA to be careful in the information we communicate. Why? Well, we want to disseminate information that helps with decision making rather than further confusing the market.


    Please tell your sales force to practice this in the field. Frankly, we run against this all the time.
    >
    > However, I feel that there are increasing inaccurancies communicated about BEA. I also see a number of "passionate" attacks at BEA implying that our technology, services and reputation are substandard without supporting data.
    >
    > Simply put: Ben's analysis is straightforward, but not comprehensive. Any TCO analysis is multi-dimensional spanning a range of factors that encompass what Ben points out, but so many other aspects as well:

    Don't buyers want a straighforward answer? Not a model 2 abstraction of the facts?
    >
    > Partner ecosystem, number of certified partners, # certified developers;
    > 24/7 localized support;
    > Certifications of the code base on different OS, hardware, JVMs, networks;
    > Certifications of the code base against J2EE;
    > Sales and marketing relationship with key executives in firms;
    > Cost of outsourced development of projects (Carly Fiorina says it avgs 6X license costs);
    > Commitments and guarantees on backwards compatibility and future feature sets; Developer community & programs;
    > Integrated portal, development, integration technologies.

    And this is worth 35X in cost? Maybe in 1999 but not in 2003 and beyond. And if we speak of the integrated portal, development and integration, we are talking a whole lot more than 35X.
    >
    > For deployments that run in a data center, with 100s of nodes, zero down time, massive integration requirements and/or with the absolute tightest security will look at many more factors than just license cost.

    IF you talk to most that have used both products, the JBoss security model is far more robust and pluggible. We implemented JAAS before anyone else.
    >
    > FYI, Ben's numbers on BEA license + hardware aren't comprehensive or real-world. He picked one of our licenses and the list price for that license, but we have many more options to meet the need of a wide clientele. Also, as with any company there are volume discounts because BEA will make sure to offer a fair price for a complete solution that encompasses all of the factors I listed above, not just the license cost.

    So what are your prices? Why are they not published? Are they whateven you sales reps think they can get out of a customer?
    >
    > JBoss is an open source application server with a competitive advantage of having free license costs. Is this competitive advantage enough to capture 10% market share? Only a crystal ball can say for sure. However, if license costs were the primary consideration for decision making at companies, then I would wonder why Orion, JRun, Pramati and a number of other low or no cost app servers don't already have that marketshare.

    What you seem to miss, is that the reason JBoss is moving forward while Pramati, Orion, JRun, etc go away is simple. TECHNOLOGY. JBoss has a very sophisicated services based architecture that developers love. Because of our microkernal we are extremely stable. Only time will tell if we can gain 10% of the market share. However, the number will always be skewed against JBoss as market share measure$$$$ and JBoss is FREE. There are over 700,000 downloads in 2003 already. Innovation is what has kept JBoss alive and will propel it forward. There are plenty of JBoss users we will never know about, because that is the nature of open source. You do not have to pay us a dime to use JBoss. If you want world class support you can pay for it.

    Ben
    >
    > Tyler
    Reply to this Reply to original

  53. BEA Services - TCO?[ Go to top ]

    If you get training from BEA, someone comes to your site and reads you the already available documentation. Can't wait!

    Now for those REALLY pesky problems, good luck :)

    Steve
    Reply to this Reply to original

  54. BEA Services - TCO?[ Go to top ]

    Steve and Ben-

    It's challenging to have a non-FUD debate in this forum.

    First, if you believe that cost is the only factor in any purchasing decision, then I can't convince you otherwise. BEA acknowledges that there are companies that have the tolerance to adopt open source. However, your debating points imply that every company feels this way.

    We can have a really interesting debate of ideas for the community on the strengths and weaknesses of our offerings, but that can only happen if you acknowledge that JBoss isn't all things to all people.

    Second, BEA's training is not a rehash of documentation. Every one of our instructors and course developers have real world engineering experience -- they don't get these jobs otherwise. We take the motto: documentation is information, course materials provide knowledge and the instructors offer wisdom. Every instructor is certified through a rigorous process that includes assessment on technology internals, design patterns and question resolution, classroom management, and speaking ability.

    I'm excited about what our 8.1 curriculum has to offer. It's not publicly marketed on our site yet, but announcement will be soon. Interesting points on the 8.1 curriculum:

    1) Carefully designed to train on solutions to tasks and job skills. These skills and tasks were collected over time interviews with 100s of people who do planning, design, implementation and administration with enterprise technology every day.

    2) Our course exercises leverage a consistent lab framework and business scenario. This business is a multi-divisional theme park spanning across all courses to provide hands-on training with a practical, real-world environment. We have spent 1000s of hours researching and working with industry veterans to design and implement this simulated business so that students are trained on real tasks. Each course designs, implements or administers a different divisional component of the company.

    3) The lab framework and business scenario are tested on Solaris, Windows and Linux.

    4) The planning, development, testing and deployment infrastructure used to manage the labs is documented and made available to course attendees to re-use in their environments, if they choose.

    5) We have a course that allows non-Java developers (COBOL, VB, mainframe, etc) to learn the job skills necessary to do custom app development, legacy system integration, interactive portal development, business process management and development of reusable logic in 4.5 days. This will help the Java community as a whole capture the mindshare of developers who may be considering other alternatives for development.

    6) Even though all of our courses focus on scalable implementations, building highly available, zero down time, geographically disperse infrastructure requires not only good technology, but great skill. We have a new offering that focuses on using messaging to design and develop highly available architectures to achieve zero down time in fully connected and partially connected networks. This is my favorite offering as it allowed me to share a lot of the knowledge I gained on distributed architectures working as an engineer for Talarian on their MOM engine doing their multicast implementation.

    Tyler
    Reply to this Reply to original

  55. BEA Services - TCO?[ Go to top ]

    <Tyler>
    3) The lab framework and business scenario are tested on Solaris, Windows and Linux.
    </Tyler>

    Are there any courses using another os than windows ? Where is Platform 8.1 for Linux ? As far as I know I can use any JBoss version with Linux.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  56. BEA Services - TCO?[ Go to top ]

    Hi Lars-

    Platform 8.1 will ship GA with certifications on a number of operating systems this summer. To see the type of operating system, JVM, hardware certifications platform is tested against, you can see a reference list for 7.0 at our edocs.bea.com site. It's quite extensive.

    Our 8.1 curriculum will be tested against Solaris, Linux and Windows so that classes can be taken in different environments. Our public training facilities run Windows for convenience, but we also have roaming classrooms configured for the other operating systems.

    We tend to find that for design and development classes, students do not have an operating system preference since the work they do is exactly the same in either environment. So, Windows is adequate.

    However, for system administration courses, there are key benefits to doing training for key use cases on the operating system targeted for production.

    Tyler
    Reply to this Reply to original

  57. BEA Services - TCO?[ Go to top ]

    Vendor sponsored TCO studies are notoriously biased, are they not? Surely one knows this if they've ever looked at any Microsoft-authored work.

    In any event, say for a moment that the BEA proponent's comprehensive TCO criteria were to be the basis of a truer comparison study. In my mind the following questions (and more) would need to be answered:

    + How does one put a well-understood and agreed upon $ figure on the value of "sales and marketing relationships with key executives?" If one can value such an intangible, what is its **cost** to an owner?

    + What about "partner ecosystems?"

    + How about "certifications" or "guarantees?"

    Some companies may in fact buy BEA because of their executive relationships, or they may buy BEA because they perceive value in its partner network. And so on. It's immaterial. The list is only important because the items on it most certainly enter into BUYING DECISIONS, but BUYING DECISIONS are not the same as OWNERSHIP COSTS.

    A company's ownership costs aren't less because its executives golf with BEA's executives. Nor do its ownership costs lessen because X & Y are built on BEA. Certifications and guarantees broaden its options, but I defy anyone to come up with an across the board model that fits all cases. The best anyone will do is to come up with a particular scenario that makes their case look good under a limited set of circumstances.

    Support is one area that does need to be included. I'd call support an "insurance" cost.

    Therefore the rule in TCO studies is, if you can't cost it out, you can't use it.

    So here are my **enhanced** models:

    + Licensed J2EE apps TCO = license cost + service + support
    + Open source J2EE TCO = service + support

    No matter how you slice it, any significant open source J2EE project is going to have lower TCO than any licensed J2EE project simply because the big guys are charging money for their licenses.

    Does it matter? I don't know. But I have to believe that in today's business climate, if companies can get what J2EE offers (a standards-based application environment) without a license fee, what's the sense in paying for it?

    Speaking of economics, even in its glory days BEA would never have sold a 100+ CPU deal for list price. More likely they would have sold a deal with unlimited licenses for a fixed period of time -- a deal with many $ changing hands to be sure.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  58. TCO - Open Source and Commercial - Profit and Non-Profit[ Go to top ]

    All,

    I'm doing a TCO anaysis for Open Source and Commercial eLearning
    platforms at our institute.

    <quote>
    No matter how you slice it, any significant open source J2EE project is
    going to have lower TCO than any licensed J2EE project simply because
    the big guys are charging money for their licenses.
    <quote>

    This is true. One important factor always forgotten within the TCO
    analysis using TCO model from Gartner Group is the fact that TCO is
    a long term calculation. So, instead of using "cost accounting",
    one should use "capital budget planning".

    By using capital budget planning - I'm using the VOFI method
    (Visualization of Financial Implications) - the TCO value will
    also pay attention to the taxation and depreciation of that
    "investment object" (in this case Open Source or Commercial
    eLearning platform).

    For this study (3 years of investment), we use same value for
    support and service for both platforms (which do not meet
    "real world" situation in some cases). The difference
    lies only at the license cost of the eLearning platforms.

    The result is quite interesting:

    - For non-profit organizations (like universities in Germany),
       which do not have to pay tax, the TCO difference is quite high.
       Difference between TCO for Commercial and TCO for Open Source
       = 33,100 EUR

    - For profit organizations, which have to pay tax, the TCO difference
       is much more lower, because of the tax and depreciation values.
       Difference between TCO for Commercial and TCO for Open Source
       = 19,101 EUR

    Surely that TCO for Open Source is always lower (=is better)
    in both examples (non-profit and profit). But the difference is
    cut almost by the half for profit organizations. The paper is already
    submitted for a conference. After this, I'll publish it, so everybody
    can get the details.

    If I were a marketing guy from Microsoft I would say: "Hey, take a look
    at this! The difference of the TCO for Open Source and Commercial
    products for your "commercial" companies is not that high and we also
    offer you those other financial and non-financial advantages".

    For me, the decision to use Open Source or Commercial ist not only
    about TCO. You cannot only argue that TCO of that is lower than that.
    Open Source is more than that. It's about opening your knowledge to
    the people around the world and this is "the most important factor",
    why Open Source should be used and supported. Thanks to Open Source
    projects like JBoss, ObjectWeb, Enhydra, Apache, we can learn about
    the "real" technologies behind the products. This is about freedom
    and independence...

    So, guys, becareful if you're talking about TCO... ;-)
    --
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Blasius Lofi Dewanto
    ---------------------------------------------------
    OpenUSS - Open University Support System
    http://openuss.sourceforge.net
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Reply to this Reply to original

  59. TCO - Open Source and Commercial - Profit and Non-Profit[ Go to top ]

    Your commercial tax benefits can still be gained if you use open source, the difference is that instead of cost from license fees, you can invest in growth, or pay your employees more, or pay for license fees on other software if you want. Capital expenditures don't evaporate if you save money on one product.

    However, in the USA at least, on government projects, your budget *will* decrease if you save money.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  60. BEA support[ Go to top ]

    I'm not especially a fan of BEA, but I have to say we've been able to get very direct and meaningful support from them for our problems. We shouldn't have *had* the problems, but we received a patch within very short order to make BEA act reasonably.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  61. going away ?[ Go to top ]

    I was surprised to read that Pramati is technologically inferior and is 'going away'!

    Starting from showcasing EJB 1.0 at JavaOne '99 (along with WebLogic), through becoming the first to be certified for J2EE 1.3 compliance, we have consistently been at the leading edge. We are also active contributors to J2EE expert groups in JCP and SPEC. Our ECperf results were widely appreciated for being realistic- good performance when still ensuring no data-stomping!

    Our focus has been both standards compliance and technology beyond standards. Consider our Management and Clustering solutions.

    Our Management framework while based entirely on JMX with the information model based on JSR77, provides a complete, independent and easily customizable web-view of the server management. The console also provides a powerful application tuning diagnostics capability (you must check out http://www.pramati.com/docstore/2104001/diagnostics/diagnostic_viewlet.html).

    Pramati clustering implementation, available for 3 years, is completely transparent and self-organizing with a distributed failsafe lock manager (members of this forum know well the somewhat 'limited' locking capabilities of most servers, even in non-clustered environments!).

    Our customers, which include large banks, both in Asia and in the US, like to work with us, as much because of our technology as because of the tech support that we provide. We have been focussed more on the Asia market. We are now moving into the North America market and have already partnered with a number of major ISVs/OEMs who are bundling Pramati Server with solutions for various domains.

    So, for the record, neither is Pramati's technology inferior, nor are we 'going away';)

    Ashish
    Pramati
    Reply to this Reply to original

  62. Uhh[ Go to top ]

    Ben, I realise it's very hard for you to see past Marc's rubbish, but you need to wake up and have a good look around you.

    JBoss is simply the loudest and by far the most obnoxious of appserver vendors out there. JRun, Orion, and Pramati are NOT going away. They're all doing rather well, and busy selling licensed all over the place. The reason you don't hear from them is that they're too busy making money to whore themselves in the cheap manner you seem so desperate to do. Just the fact that you make the claim that they're going away proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're nothing more than a marketoid who has fallen for his own lies.

    The simple fact of the matter is that (based on our own testing of an identical app across a number of appservers), JBoss is consistently the worst performing and least developer friendly. Your concept of developer friendly seems to be 'use the source!', coupled with the retarded idea that 8 pages of stacktraces for every error is helpful in any way.

    I hope JBoss (the business entity) dies the horrible death it deserves to. I for one will urge my clients to avoid it like the plague, and will always steer them towards the servers you claim are 'going away', because that way they'd get proper support and not be bombarded with marketing morons like your fine self.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  63. Uhh[ Go to top ]

    Hani,

    Agree with you!

    JBoss is best avoidable. We realised this after a bitter experience for a client's project!!

    Whoever thinks that JRun and Pramati are going to go away has superficial knowledge of the market. Try working with them to find out what stuff their engineering and support is made of!! I'm sure Ben would never would have tried using these ever.

    R
    Reply to this Reply to original

  64. BEA Services[ Go to top ]

    Tyler,

    Regarding training and certification: Am I right in my understanding that you HAVE to take BEA training courses in order to become BEA certified? This would seem to exclude all but those working for large corporations (who can afford the high cost of training) from getting certified. Why not offer the option to just take the exams / coursework at cost (or for just a small profit) and publish a detailed syllabus to allow people to the option of self-study if they cannot afford the training courses? Surely having more certified developers out there can only be a good thing for BEA...

    It is interesting to see how BEA and JBoss seem to be targeting a different audience. BEA’s training seems heavily focused at large corporates, whereas JBoss’s seems to be much more focused at individual developers. As an experienced developer I would certainly choose to take a training course with the key engineers of a product rather than someone who is just “certified” in their knowledge of a product. But this is obviously just a personal preference, and I would usually rather train myself anyway if all the necessary information were available to me...

    <Tyler>
    5) We have a course that allows non-Java developers (COBOL, VB, mainframe, etc) to learn the job skills necessary to do custom app development, legacy system integration, interactive portal development, business process management and development of reusable logic in 4.5 days. This will help the Java community as a whole capture the mindshare of developers who may be considering other alternatives for development.
    <Tyler>

    I am always very dubious when anyone claims that a 4.5 day training course can work this sort of magic. Are we talking about non-Java programmers being able to do "custom app development" in Java after just 4.5 days??? This alone would astonish me...

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding what abilities you are saying will be learnt from this course, but I am sick of working on projects where management has been misled into thinking that an x-day training course can turn a non-Java developer / newbie developer into someone who can productively/competently work on enterprise Java projects.

    Regards,
    Lawrie
    Reply to this Reply to original

  65. BEA Services[ Go to top ]

    I don't know how different a person responds to BEA Education service courses when he/she or his/her company pays for it. In my personal experience, I used to attend a lot of BEA courses free. All I was doing in classes were sleeping, eating the free food, go and visit the town where I attend the courses. This is not just me, most of the people who sitting there sleeps all time. I am sure there will be right candidates in BEA educational service that can teach enterprise computing in a nice way, but in reality, BEA education service is served through a number of sub contracting agencies that became the certified solution provider or some thing to BEA. At the end of the course, most time they ask about the quality of course and have to complete certain paper works. Most of the people sitting in room will fill up the paper for the sake of that guy, cuz we got the course free.
       Those who market educational service in serverside.com can go ahead with their work here, but in reality nobody can be a J2EE programmer by attending 5 days course from BEA.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  66. BEA Services[ Go to top ]

    Hi Lawrie-

    Yes, today our certification program for 7.0 is a course-based program. The implication seems to be that students need to pay a lot of money to complete the program, but that isn't necessarily the case. For a BEA Certified Specialist: Server certification, we offer a test at Prometric and students do not have to complete the courses. Additionally, for all of the certifications, we offer opt-out situations for the courses such as writing an article that demonstrates the skill.

    Also, we have already publicly stated our intent to move fully to testing for 8.1 later this year and we will incorporate a clean transition model for anyone with a 7.0 certification. Our intent is not to cost the community money, but to offer a range of certifications. Getting tests for Prometric and VUE built is very costly and timely -- I couldn't believe the amount of validation and effort that is required to go into a single test. So, the 7.0 program allowed us to satisfy some demand while we work wtih the community on the 8.1 program.

    On your other point on the RAD course. Yes, we can actually take non-Java programmers and accomplish what I listed. Let me try to explain how we do it:

    1) First, we absolutely require experience with some sort of structured programming language. We don't actually teach Java in the class, but as we introduce key concepts in our solutions approach, we make sure that the content has a variety of examples for beginning / advanced audiences that show off the equivalent Java syntax for all basic logic structures (non-OO). When students get into exercises where code is developed, they are then encouraged to reference the content for examples on how correlate structures they are familiar with, with what they have seen. We also provide a comprehensive appendix that gives some tutorial options. This method seems to work terrifically as most developers pick up on the similarities quickly.

    2) The course leverages a lot of what is in Workshop, which does not require OO development to be successful. Workshop has a control model that abstracts away resources (J2EE or otherwise) into methods and callbacks that can be invoked similarly to the way VB controls are invoked. So, if individuals are taught how to do method invocation and how to work with callbacks, they are then able to access 80% of what the system has to offer through controls.

    3) Workshop has controls to do legacy system integration, personalization elements, work with EJBs, JMS, workflows, etc. Workshop is a productivity layer on top of the open systems layer. We do teach some elements of J2EE such as JSP development and servlets, but this course doesn't focus on teaching students all of the open systems technologies -- we have other courses that teach those technologies and they do require a much stronger skill set.

    If we didn't have Workshop and the productivity layer, we couldn't provide an offering like this. Everything that people build in the course is Java / XML that gets converted into open systems. If any of this has been confusing, I'd suggest downloading the 8.1 beta and taking 30 minutes to runthrough the application development tutorial. It won't take you long.

    Tyler
    Reply to this Reply to original

  67. BEA Certification[ Go to top ]

    So the 8.1 tests will go back to the old way of certification, i.e., test-based not course-based? If that is indeed the case, that will be a welcome development, because the 7.0 course-based approach WILL NOT WORK, period!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  68. Re: Onwards[ Go to top ]

    BEA Charge 350$+/hour + Car + Flight charge + Hotel from client for their professional service. Most of their PS members were dump ass (Latest data not available).


    You are going to find this everywhere, even the JBoss professional service group. There was this one time when I reported a problem about Jboss's wrong implementation of remote interfaces where objects should be passed by reference instead of value. A certain JBoss Authorized consultant was quick to point out that it was a feature not a bug. Clearly, if the implementation is not according to specs, it has to be a bug. Obviously, it was a bad implementation with over zealous effort to optimize the performance, as such all the objects are hardwired to use pass by value instead of following the specs. I finally found the description of the bug: [ 575000 ] Can't disable call by reference in the bug database. A workaround would be to write a custom interceptor. Somebody did finally wrote the custom interceptor a month later to work around the problem. I have not been following the dev list closely, and I will be worried if problems of implementations are solved by workarounds after workarounds.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  69. Stupid people.[ Go to top ]

    JBoss is open source and free. You can download "Marc's JBoss", rename it, hire some developers, and make money off it yourself. Stupid people.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  70. What a joke (out of topic)[ Go to top ]

    I'm not surprised that Marc is French, because French are really used to stealth the good things from the others. Another example are the french fries that in fact are belgian :-))))))
    Reply to this Reply to original

  71. What a joke (way out of topic)[ Go to top ]

    ...not to mention "French kissing". I've always been curious - who did you steal that from :-?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  72. Gross misunderstanding[ Go to top ]

    It seems that there is a gross misunderstanding on the part of many who are commenting on this topic. I will not comment on the terms of the offer made to the JBoss contributors since I have not seen them. Having said that, if the contributors decide to accept the terms of the offer, who is harmed? The JBoss Group is simply attempting to reward their contributors in some 'real' way and to encourage further contribution. Never has the JBoss group stated an intention to begin charging for their product. In fact, if I understand the LGPL correctly, they could not begin to charge for it even if they wanted to (I may be mistaken on that). JBoss is free of license cost. You can use it wherever, whenever and however you wish. The documentation is available for a very reasonable fee. And if you want support for the product you can get it...for what I feel is a reasonable cost considering that you get access to the actual developers of the code and not some call-center flunky reading a script. And guess what - if you don't use all of your annual support you can convert it to services time. A novel approach.

    How many of you that denegrate Marc Fluery have actually met him, spoke to him? Probably not many. Don't presume to know his intentions and motivations. After all, I would lay wager that just about everyone who posts to this forum is monetarily compensated at a level far above the national average in their respective home countries. So who are the real hypocrites when it comes to making money from open source software?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  73. Re: Gross misunderstanding[ Go to top ]

    I will not comment on the terms of the offer made to the JBoss contributors

    >since I have not seen them. Having said that, if the contributors decide to
    >accept the terms of the offer, who is harmed?

    JBoss Group is making it sound as though the offer is a reward. It's not. It is an attempt to get more developers into JBoss Group. If it *was* a reward, with no strings attached, I would not have been offended. If they want to give me money, sure, cool. But, that's the airy fairy tale that half of the people in this thread has bought, and which is not reality.

    Noone is harmed by this. The issue, as with Chip's favourite TiVO story, is what business methods you use, and what kind of manipulation you want to accept. As I said, I don't accept it, but I understand that others do. That's all.

    >The JBoss Group is simply attempting to reward their contributors in some
    >'real' way and to encourage further contribution.

    You are describing the idea of the "compensation plan", but that's not the reality of it.

    >In fact, if I understand the LGPL correctly, they could not begin to charge for
    > it even if they wanted to (I may be mistaken on that). JBoss is free of
    >license cost.

    The LGPL allow you to build proprietary plugins "on top of it", which would not have to be LGPL'ed. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone from writing a "plugin" which is not LGPL'ed, and which is charged for. In fact, that model has been encouraged by MarcF on the dev lists, and this model has also been used by the MVCSoft CMP implementation.

    You are correct in that the basic server will probably always be free and OpenSource, but apart from that, well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. It's certainly possible, legally speaking, for JBoss Group to make "Base" and "Enterprise" versions and charge for the latter.

    > How many of you that denegrate Marc Fluery have actually met him, spoke to
    >him? Probably not many. Don't presume to know his intentions and motivations.

    I have met Marc, I have worked with Marc, and have a pretty good idea about his intentions and motivations. Those he talks about in public, and those he doesn't talk about in public, how they relate and (perhaps most importantly) differ. Marc will tell you what he knows that you want to hear, always. Most people want to hear that JBoss Group cares about its developers, so that's why he'll tell you that they have a "cash compensation plan", just because "it's the right thing to do". Well, that's the theory of it. As above, it aint the reality of it.

    > After all, I would lay wager that just about everyone who posts to this forum
    >is monetarily compensated at a level far above the national average in their
    >respective home countries. So who are the real hypocrites when it comes to
    >making money from open source software?

    As I have already stated, I personally have nothing against people making money from OpenSource. Heck, I'm doing it myself since I'm writing a product that sits on top of JBoss. The question is *how* you make that money, and as always there are some people who don't care ("if you can get a buck, go for it!") and there are those who care. Judging from this thread it seems to be about 50/50. I care. I don't like lying and I don't like manipulation. Call me crazy or idealistic, or even unrealistic, but that's who I am.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  74. They are out to get you....[ Go to top ]

    I find all of this rather funny. Has anyone read Rickard's bLOG? Here is a link. http://roller.anthonyeden.com/page/rickard. He is a crazy man, who thinks the world is out to get him. Look at this clown's paranoid conspirecy theories. He himself says he did not contribute that much to JBoss, so why is he in such a tuss. Afterall, isn't he writing or trying to write commercial software on top of JBoss. Talk about a hypocrite....

    Sometimes I wonder...

    Sincerely,
    THE CIA
    Reply to this Reply to original

  75. Re: They are out to get you....[ Go to top ]

    I thought so, but nobody believed me!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  76. Flurry of WackOberg[ Go to top ]

    I think JBoss is okay. I have not met either Marc Fleury or Rickard Oberg. My distaste for both of them (as could be gathered from my other posts on this site) is based purely on how they appear to behave.

    I have read Rickard's weblog. Talk about a bunch of senseless mindless cow dung. I was annoyed that I was coaxed into actually going there because he gives the impression that he has profound things to say, and let's just say, it is quite the opposite. If I want to read about conspiracy theories about the United States, the CIA, Rumsfeld, aliens controlling our minds, and all his prior employers, then I'll rent a movie or something!

    I do not think what the JBoss Group is doing is a good idea. But in my opinion, it has gotten to the point that Rickard taking a similar position, with the way he argues, and the FUD he creates ("Fluery's public opinions versus the very private opinions [shared only with Rickard]") *removes* credibility from that position, and I almost wish he didn't say anything, at least on the occasions where I have a similar position.

    Fleury is on the other hand *only* an "arrogant, self-righteous wind bag" as someone said above, which is preferable than also being the most annoying bizarre squeaky (and wobbly) wheel.

    This is not meant as a flame, but as a real request for either of these two jokers to please modify their behavior.

    Jim
    Reply to this Reply to original

  77. nice supporters..[ Go to top ]

    Jim,

    Scott McNealy, Rickard Öberg, Marc Fleury - all clowns - what wrong has the Java Community done to earn this? Could it be some sins in an earlier life?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  78. Rolf Tollerud...[ Go to top ]

    Scott McNealy, Rickard Öberg, Marc Fleury - all clowns


    Rolf,

    When you have contributed a fraction (10% say) of what Rickard has to the programming community (JBoss architecture, XDoclet, WebWork), then I will respect your opinions...

    ... alternatively, when you can bring yourself to say something positive about the Java community or anyone involved in it...

    ...until then you will just come across as a pompous, carping, windbag.

    /david
    Reply to this Reply to original

  79. message from an egoist[ Go to top ]

    David,

    Being a good programmer does not stop you from being a fool or socially incompetent, as clearly is demonstrated.

    As for contributing to the programming community, I prefer to contribute to my own company! Sorry.


    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  80. message to an egoist[ Go to top ]

    Being a good programmer does not stop you from being a fool or socially incompetent, as clearly is demonstrated.

    No one said you were a good programmer.

    The rest is obviously true.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  81. Programmers....[ Go to top ]

    Rolf said:
    > Being a good programmer does not stop you from being a fool or socially incompetent

    Programming ability is completely orthogonal to social skills. But your implication that Rickard (for one) has had a negative impact on the community is unjustified and unfair.

    And FWIW, I think his assessments of people's motivations indicate a pretty shrewd judge of character...

    Anyway - back to JBoss: It is clear that one of Marc Fleury's major worries is trying to source enough 'new blood' programming talent into JBoss to compensate for natural wastage. This is Marc's plan to protect against it.

    (shrug) It's not really a surprise that JBoss have come up with this offer...

    /david
    Reply to this Reply to original

  82. Programmers....[ Go to top ]

    OK, I apologize to Rickard. His political writings pissed me off, not anything he has written in this forum.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  83. I forgot![ Go to top ]

    I forgot to mention somebody from the Java community, which I respect!

    Here is just a few,

    Jurgen Hoeller
    Rod Johnson
    Vic Cekvenich
    Jonathan Gibbons
    Jason Hunter
    Ray Harrison

    These gentlemen are not only very very good – but also – in addition – always polite.

    and above all:
    the Jakarta Org ("the professionals")

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  84. Practice what you preach[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,
    Interesting you would be pontificating about professionalism and courtesy. Your posts are as intolerant and rude as any of the others on this thread. What exactly is your beef with Marc Fleury or JBoss? Ironically, Tyler Jewell is someone who has a REASON not to like Marc or JBoss. Yet, his writing, despite the vendor bias (unless he has some secret flaming alter-ego that goes around saying things like Marc Fleury is Kaiser Sose, signed the real Slim Shady :) is pretty courteous.

    The press release posted here is pretty standard stuff. It barely mentions Marc, but is about the JBoss developers past and present (the other 36 of the ones who received the offer, are not Rickard Oberg and haven't posted any personal rants here). The only thing that makes it unusual is that it talks about an open source company and being profitable in these times. If that bothers you, that's pretty pathetic.
    /Chip
    /Chip
    Reply to this Reply to original

  85. They are out to get you....[ Go to top ]

    "He himself says he did not contribute that much to JBoss, so why is he in such a tuss. Afterall, isn't he writing or trying to write commercial software on top of JBoss. Talk about a hypocrite.... "

    I find it very humble und likeable, when the former chief architect of jboss (or some title like that:) estimates his contributions to be minor. One man's boredom is another man's heart attack.

    Regarding his conspiracy's, that is his own little hobby and has nothing to do with his technological mastery. If you don't like it, please post this on your blog, not on TSS (which is, what Rickard is doing).
    Reply to this Reply to original

  86. Wackoberg does it here[ Go to top ]

    Regarding his conspiracy's, that is his own little hobby ... If you don't like it, please post this on your blog, not on TSS (which is, what Rickard is doing).

    Bob,

    He does not just do it in his blog, he has done it, and continues to do it, here and in other community sites. Scroll up. That's what bothers me.

    Jim
    Reply to this Reply to original

  87. Re: Gross misunderstanding[ Go to top ]

    Right back atcha, babe. For those who didn't get the "humor" (and I use the term loosly) in my post, point your html renderer here.

    I've never met Mr Fleury, but I've read enough of what he's written and said in interviews to develop the opinion that he's an arrogant, self-righteous wind bag. I admire what he's done with JBoss, but that doesn't change my impression about his public persona. One can only hope that his private persona is different.

    As far as "real" Americans (whatever they are) are concerned, we're all immigrants here, whether we or our ancestors arrived by ocean going vessel, aircraft or foot via the Bering land bridge. And, let's not forget that if it weren't for the French, we Americans would have monarchs on our money rather than mere politicians and revolutionaries.

    Finally, as far as being a hyprocrite is concerned, I'm sure that I am but not for being highly compensated (91st percentile, how about you?) and using JBoss because I don't. I just wanted to share my humerous thought comparing the anti-war diatribe of one wind bag (with whom I happen to agree on every point) with the holier-than-thou statements of a software wind bag. If anybody is offended by that, too bad.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  88. Re: Gross misunderstanding[ Go to top ]

    No offense taken, and none intended. My simple point was that it seems like many people are seeing the contributor 'compensation' plan as an indicator that JBoss is, or no longer will be, an open source product. As I said before, I have not seen the terms of the compensation offer. As with any contract, it should be entered into by a contributor with their eyes wide open, and probably then only after a legal review by trusted counsel (if it's complicated enough to warrant that).

    As long as JBoss is fully LGPL and the support options are reasonably priced, I'll continue to view it as capable alternative in the application server market. If and when that changes, my view will likely change as well, regardless of my opinion of the lead salesman.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  89. Re: Gross misunderstanding[ Go to top ]

    I agree with you Chris...

    If JBoss developers get offended by their supporting organisation is a pitty for both. In my opinion the case "mf vs ro" mentioned here is an internal matter and the public should not interfere. But lets not loose our focus here :

    1) JBoss is a damn good piece of software.

    2) JBoss is as open source as can be. LGPL is the open source licence that puts the least restrictions on the usage of the software.

    3) The business model of a commercial support-organisation for open source software clearly benefits the open source community. The availability of commercial support is definitly a benefit for an OSS project. Some of the money can be invested in the development.

    4) For companies, open source software has some very clear advantages over closed source. (with which I don't want to say that every oss-project is better then its commercial counterparts)

    a devoted open source contributer.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  90. experience is a teacher that is always too late[ Go to top ]

    JBoss is a damn good piece of software

    What? JBoss is Open Source but still a "big J2EE Application Server" is it not?

    I should guess that about 70-80% of TSS is negative to EJB by now. Jboss could have been a big hit for two years ago – now the time has passed.

    Search for "jboss" at www.it.jobserve.com resulted in 18 hits..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  91. Rolf says "experience is a teacher that is always too late"[ Go to top ]

    JBoss is not only for EJB Rolf, but I'm sure you already knew that. And to continue using a job search engine as your "proof" is silly. I would agree that entity beans are not the best choice for larger/complex apps, so you do not -have- to use them. We do use session beans with our own data caching code and have been very happy with the performance.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  92. it is of no great consequence but[ Go to top ]

    Steven!

    Why do you use JBoss at all then? - instead of a simple servlet container with a still higher performance! Just curious.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  93. FUD[ Go to top ]

    There is a lot of FUD going on on this board. I wonder how many trolls there are.

    I don't see what the big deal is about some of the developers getting paid and being asked to join JBoss Group. It sounds like they are getting a signing bonus, I got one at my current job. What is the big deal?

    tx

    Matt
    Reply to this Reply to original

  94. why is everything so difficult?[ Go to top ]

    Matt,

    At least I know what I would do if I were Scott McNealy!

    Buy Resine - put it in the SDK together with an optional EJB package. Drop the whole JCP and accept only SDK additions for which there is an exellent working implementation (for example from Jakarta). Then I could concentrate on improving the Java core like generics, shared VM etc.

    Is this FUD too?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  95. why is everything so difficult?[ Go to top ]

    good plan Rolf. Generics? Why generics? Ive never gotten oranges when I expected apples.

    tx

    Matt
    Reply to this Reply to original

  96. Good strategy..[ Go to top ]

    Thank you! To bad that he is not doing it but instead product x - that is build upon Webwork - that is build upon JBoss - that is build upon Tomcat - that is build upon - (you get the drift) is going to compete against .NET!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  97. re: it is of no great consequence but[ Go to top ]

    Take a look at http://www.jboss.org/developers/projects/jboss/projects.jsp and perhaps you will see that JBoss is a lot more than entity beans+jbossweb. We also develop thin clients using swing or thinlets.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  98. I like to get to the bottom of things[ Go to top ]

    Steven,

    Please take my question seriously as somebody already have accused me for FUD merely by asking (a non-FUD debate is fine with me).

    I followed your link but it seems to me that everything there already exists as Jakarta Open Source projects. And thin clients using swing or thinlets could communicate just as efficiently by using GLUE™ for example.

    Of course, it would be easier for me to understand if I knew more specifically what components you are using that is not part of the Webcontainer.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  99. re: I like to get to the bottom of things[ Go to top ]

    We write our business logic as POJO's, so as not to lock ourselves into a particular technology (session beans, servlets, etc.) We currently wrap the business classes in session beans for the security, transactions, passivation, clustering, etc. Session beans can be accessed with Servlets, session beans, thinlets, applets, etc. JMS is used to queue up email transactions, etc.

    Sure you could do this by throwing a bunch of other projects together, but why? JBoss is a bundled and tested solution. I can buy an engine, tires, a body and electrical system separate and build a car or I can go to Toyota and get one already tested and assembled.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  100. Yawn...[ Go to top ]

    <Rolf Trollerud>
    I should guess that about 70-80% of TSS is negative to EJB by now. Jboss could have been a big hit for two years ago – now the time has passed.
    <Rolf Trollerud>

    No - I think it is just a false impression one gets because you post 70-80% of the messages on this topic.

    Most of us realise that EJBs have their uses, and that it is just a case of knowing when to use them. We just don't bother posting this every time someone mentions EJB or an EJB container vendor.

    Regards,
    Lawrie
    Reply to this Reply to original

  101. Re: Gross misunderstanding[ Go to top ]

    I think its funny that the original post was funny, but for exactly the opposite reasons you suspected. It's not funny because its true, its funny because its rEdiculous, which exposes the truth about how idiot your tirades are.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  102. Lets have competition between java and .net app server[ Go to top ]

    Since SpecjAppServer (& all other j perf specs) rules out .net ,

    how about coming out with a spec like tpc-c which is vendor neutral
    and we can all boast about our implementation of our specs ?

    My suggestion is to take tpc-w. I do not think that java guys have the
    balls to enter this challenge.

    chameleon
    Reply to this Reply to original

  103. JBOSS is just another business[ Go to top ]

    The company offered economic interest options and, in many cases, cash bonuses to 37 developers of the open source JBoss application


    Who cares? BEA Does the same for a thousand developers who write code for BEA.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  104. Profit sharing?[ Go to top ]

    Hmm... how much money are we talking about?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  105. Marc is Happy[ Go to top ]

    I just want to comment that I think Marc must be happy to see all this talk about JBoss. Whether it's JBoss-takes-on-Sun, JBoss-takes-on-BEA, JBoss-pays-developers, or whatever, it's all good publicity for Marc's company.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  106. RE: Marc is Happy[ Go to top ]

    <Guglielmo Lichtner>
     I just want to comment that I think Marc must be happy to see all this talk about JBoss. Whether it's JBoss-takes-on-Sun, JBoss-takes-on-BEA, JBoss-pays-developers, or whatever, it's all good publicity for Marc's company.


    Your point being...?

    Dan
    Reply to this Reply to original

  107. Remember Enhydra?[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    Why does JBOSS reminds me of Enhydra.
    Enhydra was on it's way to be a solid java app server. When the company behind it decided to hold the work on open source and started working on closed version. That killed it, the company and enhydra. It was once riding on popularity wave and now nobody want's to know about it. Its gone.

    Just look at the jboss web page, it's all marketing. You can't find the docs without vading to pages of marketing. It's not a open source project trying to promote itself, but trying to cash in on some success.

    This is how I predict this is going to work out.
    JBOSS group will start a close source project that they will try to get J2EE certification in the name of enterprise acceptance. The cajoling of main developers is happening so that they okay the GPL to closed license change. Soon, there will be two code bases, one free and one closed. All the main developers who are lurked into the deal, will stop working on free version as they will be paid employees of JBOSS. There will never be open JBOSS v4 as everybody will be busy on for sale version. They will claim GPL compliance by keeping the CVS tree open, but unbuildable.

    People, in the mean time, frustrated time and again, will change there focus to some other code base, the objectweb app server or openjeb or something like that. They will bring it very close to enterprise usability and then history will repeat itself. Somebody, will come up with clever idea that hey, I can make money on this.

    I challenge the lead developer to fork JBOSS now and keep it open forever. Long live open JBOSS.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  108. Remember Enhydra?[ Go to top ]

    I'm curious if anyone who is familiar with the Enhydra project and more specifically it's downfall could comment on the reasons behind it. Besides being a java app server and open source, what are other similarities exist b/w it and JBoss? Otherwise one could argue that we are comparing apples and oranges here.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  109. Enhydra is powerful and healthy[ Go to top ]

    Enhydra is not dead ;-) Enhydra is now supported by ObjectWeb
    consortium and Together Loesungen from Austria. This is again shows
    the power of Open Source. As long as the people are interested in
    the product, it will always stay alive. Please check www.enhydra.org

    The story between Enhydra and JBoss is quite different.
    Enhydra (Servlet container, presentation framework, O/R mapping) was a
    commercial product from Lutris and transferred into Open Source. It was
    very succesful as an Open Source product. Lutris also sold Enhydra
    Professional (value added). After this Lutris wanted to make an Enhydra
    Enterprise (all the stuffs from Enhydra + EJB container from JOnAS).
    There was the 1. version from Enhydra Enterprise but it was not
    succesful. The problem at the time with Lutris was: the development of
    Enhydra was mostly done by Lutris workers.

    Now, since Lutris is gone, ObjectWeb (JOnAS) has taken the site over
    and Alfred Madl from Together (not Togethersoft) Austria continues the
    development of Enhydra (not Enterprise) as chairman. The development of
    Enhydra projects is now more "open" to all the people interested. More
    and more people are getting involved in some of Enhydra projects. BTW.
    Enhydra (www.enhydra.org) has a lot of projects. One good thing about
    the "product Enhydra" is that, it is very easy to use. You have all
    the stuffs already integrated:
    - servlet container and management console,
    - presentation layer frameworks (Super Servlet, Barracuda),
    - presentation layer view (XMLC),
    - business layer and data layer O/R mapping DODS.
    Enhydra does not have an EJB container.
    Just checkout www.enhydra.org for more information about Enhydra.

    JBoss is already "open", so this is quite different. Anyway if
    you think that the next version of JBoss would be a closed-source,
    you can just open your own "JBoss" project. LGPL allows this.
    Whether the new project will be succesfull, it depends on all of
    you. Just like Enhydra, the project itself is continuing although
    Lutris is not there anymore.

    A different case happened at the Jive discussion forum software (now
    www.jivesoftware.com). At the beginning the project was Open Source
    until "the owner" has taken all of the codes and closed the software for
    commercial. A new Open Source project for Jive was build after this
    (based on the Open Source Jive) but the project has never reached
    a stable status. I think, Rickard can tell more about this story ;-)

    So, stay cool and as all of you know, software development in bigger
    view is a "process" and not a "project". You, all Open Source contributors, have the power to drive the direction. Just one request:
    Do not only talk! Just do it!

    Best regards,
    --
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Blasius Lofi Dewanto
    ---------------------------------------------------
    OpenUSS - Open University Support System
    http://openuss.sourceforge.net
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Reply to this Reply to original

  110. Jive Software put a dampner on open source for me[ Go to top ]

    What did happen to Jive software?
    I know that they were open source, and then next minute bam they were commercial.

    I was really peeved, because the original open source fork point never went anywhere, and so I perceived it as if Jive had killed it. For all intents and purposes it did kill it, even though the source is still there and in principle I guess people could have continued from where they left off.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  111. Jive Software[ Go to top ]

    The Open Source Jive is still there:

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/meinds

    "Powerful Java based forum/messaging/information software. First version is based on code from Jive 1.2.4. (This is _NOT_ project Jive) Next version is based on the RDF standard from W3C. See homepage for details"

    So, actually, every one can continue the product... But no one interested in, I think ;-) There is also another Open Source JSP-based discussion forum www.mvnforum.com available.

    Lofi.
    http://openuss.sourceforge.net
    http://ejosa.sourceforge.net
    Reply to this Reply to original

  112. having the code is only a small part of the business[ Go to top ]

    Lofi,

    You cannot confuse business with code. Running a business is about having the customer’s confidence. For example, when an air cargo went bankrupt (through causes not their fault), the owners just opened a new company and telephoned to their 800 worldwide customers. Result - business as usual. But it takes a looong time (and sweat) to get customers trust like this.

    The thing is that when you have the customers and the trade name it is almost impossible for any other to challenge your position – even if you have the code – not to speak of if you do not have any money either - to start the business.

    However, it is important to remember (if you are planning this neat little trick of commercialize an Open Source project) to make all contributors sign over their copyright ownership to you. I wonder how is the case with this issue at JBoss? And how is the case with this new proposal from the Jboss? Is it possible that Marc Fleury forgot something?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  113. JBoss, Enhydra, Jive[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    <quote>
    The thing is that when you have the customers and the trade name it is almost impossible for any other to challenge your position
    even if you have the code not to speak of if you do not have any money either - to start the business.
    <quote>

    I agree with you. However the "leader" of the project or the product is also important. If someone "very capable (financial, non-financial, knowledge, etc)" would fork JBoss code, she/he can also be successful, no doubt on this. Enhydra is a good example for this.

    <quote>
    However, it is important to remember (if you are planning this neat little trick of commercialize an Open Source project) to make
    all contributors sign over their copyright ownership to you. I wonder how is the case with this issue at JBoss? And how is the case
    with this new proposal from the Jboss? Is it possible that Marc Fleury forgot something?
    <quote>

    That's why I wrote (see my last thread), that JBoss case is different than Jive. Jive was written mostly by 2 or 3 persons, who had the copyright and at the end made the commercial JiveSoftware. This is not the case with JBoss and therefore I don't think that Marc Fleury would make JBoss closed-source. The only think he could do is just to make all the "new" extensions of JBoss as commercial plug-ins, like what they've done with the documentations of JBoss. And this is one of the business models in Open Source software, nothing special about this. Everyone can do this (you too, Rolf ;-)).

    Best regards,
    --
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Blasius Lofi Dewanto
    ---------------------------------------------------
    OpenUSS - Open University Support System
    http://openuss.sourceforge.net

    EJOSA - Enterprise Java Open Source Architecture
    http://ejosa.sourceforge.net
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Reply to this Reply to original

  114. Jive Software[ Go to top ]

    "Powerful Java based forum/messaging/information software. First version is based on code from Jive 1.2.4. (This is _NOT_ project Jive) Next version is based on the RDF standard from W3C. See homepage for details"

    >
    > So, actually, every one can continue the product... But no one interested in, I think ;-) There is also another Open Source JSP-based discussion forum www.mvnforum.com available.

    There is another forum software built on Jive code base hosted on SourceForge - Yazd (http://sourceforge.net/projects/yazd). But it has 0% activity, same as Meinds...

    mvnForum seems the most promissing of all altough it is not Jive based.

    Dejan
    Reply to this Reply to original

  115. A comment from the Jive guys[ Go to top ]

    I thought I'd make a few comments as a Jive developer. Did we "kill" the open-source code base? No, not at all. We simply decided to stop working on the Open Source product ourselves (Bill Lynch and myself). We then rewrote the codebase and released it as a commercial product. This was an economic necessity so that we could work on the product full-time (although back in 2000 it was harder to convince people that Open Source business models didn't work all that well). :)

    Frankly, I have little sympathy for people that complain about this process. An open source license gives you many rights, but not the moral authority to complain about developers no longer working on an Open Source codebase. Personally, being able to start a company to work on what I love full-time has been much more rewarding than working at another company and then only having a few hours a day to devote to an open source project. That's why I love the trend of developer source (commercial products with source code availability). Companies like Caucho, Jive Software, Atlassian, and many others sell commercial software, but make their source code open to customers. To me, that's the best of both worlds.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  116. Jive[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    I thought I'd make a few comments as a Jive developer. Did we "kill" the open-source code base? No, not at all. We simply decided to stop working on the Open Source product ourselves (Bill Lynch and myself).
    <quote>

    I agree with your comment. It was and "is" your decision to stop. If the community needs the software, they can just continue the Jive Open Source. And this is not the case. As I wrote in my other threads, in many Open Source projects, the leader is very important ;-)

    Lofi.
    EJOSA - Enterprise Java Open Source Architecture
    http://ejosa.sourceforge.net
    Reply to this Reply to original

  117. No, Marc is not happy[ Go to top ]

    It's hard to believe that Marc would be happy for all the negative noise. His arrogance was noticeable long time ago and it seems that most people agree on this. Unless he is really socially dumb, he should know that bombastic praise to JBoss as well as excessive confidence and continual bashing of opponents is going to hurt him personally and the services he is selling. Too bad. Pride before the fall.

    I do commend all those developers that spend their time for advancing the open source platform.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  118. For the Love of Open-Source: JBoss Unveils Profit Sharing[ Go to top ]

    I was stunned that a press release was done for a "questionable" business decision like this. The main problem JBoss has is since the software is open source, it's business practices are as well. Most companies can hide all their insane business decisions behind a board room door and sweep most of the dirt under the rug.

    If I was a developer of JBoss, I would cease cutting code this instance.

    I read the "Blue" paper as well....where are the "Red" & "White" papers?

    Here's the solution I chose....pay $500 for Resin, it's fast, very stable and is a high quality COMMERCIAL product. They don't hide behind the cloak of open source (and no, I don't work for them :-)).

    Tom
    Reply to this Reply to original

  119. the human mind = like a undiscovered continent[ Go to top ]

    Please!

    This issue of ”which app server” certainly seems to raise strong feelings. So much more strange as a simple stack of for instance Eclipse + an ordinary Webcontainer + some tools from Jakarta gives all the functionality of any app server (and then some) + significantly more performance and maintainability.

    But it seems that the Java community would rather accept Microsoft to such a solution, regarding .NET as a lesser evil. I wonder why?

    The answer is buried in some deep-rooted psychology somewhere.

    Can somebody more intelligent explain!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  120. 2c amateur-psychology[ Go to top ]

    Why "J2EE App Server"

    As nobody seems to like to answer my question I have done some serious thinking myself and have come up with the following conclusion.

    There are "shoe-snobs" and "wine-snobs" and "first-edition snobs" and so on.. Everyone is a snob in some area! - you only have to look long enough.

    The Java people base their self-esteem on the "Big J2EE App Server" - with entity beans and all. It makes them fell superior (nothing wrong in that – it is the same as shoe-snobs, wine-snobs etc). But take that away from them, expose it as unnecessary – and you take away their self-esteem! Ponder for instance this comment on Adventure Builder Sample Application: "Is the whole J2ee good practice shabang too costly for J2ee performance or should we just use PHP instead or any other scripting lang?" Notice the longing, the yearning for the lost and unattainable..

    It is this hopeless love IMO that is going to cost Java the first place in Enterprise – mission critical systems.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  121. re:2c amateur-psychology (puff, puff...)[ Go to top ]

    Rolf, put your crack pipe down just for a moment and think about what you are saying. I'm not a J2EE snob as you generality seems to suggest (we use JBoss in production after all). We made a logical progression from Servlets only (running on stand-alone Tomcat) to full J2EE apps (minus entity beans). Just because you are using a J2EE app server doesn't mean you -have- to use all the features (I've said this before, but crack does effect your memory). Just as you do not have to use Winforms in .Net if you do not want/need to. In our case Tomcat JNDI didn't work at the time and we wanted a more generic way to access DataSources and JavaMail. We also wanted to be able to hot-deploy our apps which Tomcat also didn't do at the time (get the picture?). Little by little we tested certain J2EE features and applied the ones that made sense.

    Now to use a non-Java example (you can reload your pipe at this time). We started testing web apps with NT4 and ASP in 1996. Then I wrote an app in Delphi using ISAPI and the data retrieval was 20x faster using the same SQL! You can do the same comparisons with JBoss. Fire up opensta.org, build a test case and do the bombs away. If JBoss is too slow with entity beans or too complex, then don't use them. No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you to use the Pet Store example as your template or JBoss as your middleware. If you want to learn how to write efficient J2EE apps why don't you try to do some objective research. http://www.cs.rice.edu/CS/Systems/DynaServer/perf_scalability_ejb.pdf

    PS, the crack pipe thing is just a joke, but I have to wonder where you come up with your delusional theories :)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  122. smoking my crack pipe, puff, puff..[ Go to top ]

    Steven,

    JNDI didn't work at the time and we wanted a more generic way to access DataSources and JavaMail. We also wanted to be able to hot-deploy our apps

    That seems very vague reasons to me, JNDI and hot-deploy works in Tomcat - so your main reason then - should be performance! You are trying to convince me that JBoss that is build on top of Tomcat should be faster! Sorry I do not buy that..Even without EJB the app server is bound to be slower because you are introducing another layer..

    And why are you pointing me to the link:
    "Performance and Scalability of EJB Applications"

    ..when you are not even using EJB?

    So you have to do better to convince me that your are not a J2EE snob! (nothing wrong with being a snob, I too am one, everybody is)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  123. re:smoking my crack pipe, puff, puff..[ Go to top ]

    Did I say JNDI and hot deploy was the "main" reason? Of course not, so please do not put words in my mouth or try to extrapolate some nonsense from it. We are using a lot more than JNDI and hot deploy, but that's what got us started with JBoss two years ago.

    Do you even know what EJB consists of? I stated before (check http://www.theserverside.com//home/thread.jsp?thread_id=18524&article_count=123#77887) we are using session beans which are considered part of EJB, you realize this, right? I do not need to convince you of anything, that's not my job.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  124. tantum relligio potuit suadere malorum[ Go to top ]

    I do not need to convince you of anything, that's not my job

    OK, let us finish this discussion.

    Personally, I think this whole thread is a good example on the current state of J2EE.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  125. ¿Qué está arriba con Rolf?[ Go to top ]

    <rolf>
    Personally, I think this whole thread is a good example on the current state of J2EE.
    <rolf>

    In your opinion perhaps...
    Reply to this Reply to original

  126. ¿Qué está arriba con Rolf?[ Go to top ]

    <rolf>
    Personally, I think this whole thread is a good example on the current state of J2EE.
    <rolf>

    Yeah, this sounds like a lot of infighting but none of this would be happening if people weren't asking for Portals, for more features (POJOs in JBoss, or the numerous features in Weblogic), with different levels of developers (ex-VB-ers, etc).

    With all this mess, hopefully a shop can find a Java solution that meets its needs. If you aren't fighting you've probably picked the default: .NET. ;-)
    Steve
    Reply to this Reply to original

  127. ¿Qué está arriba con Rolf?[ Go to top ]

    <steve l>
    With all this mess, hopefully a shop can find a Java solution that meets its needs. If you aren't fighting you've probably picked the default: .NET. ;-)
    Steve
    <steve l>

    Steve, that sums up what is important. We look for solutions that best fit our needs and for us it was Java and J2EE. We have AS/400s, Oracle, Windows and Linux. I wanted to standardize on one main language for business apps. I made this choice back in 1999 when .Net was vapor and Java was already established and J2EE 1.2 was out. I haven’t regretted making this decision. IBM (our main platform is AS/400) and Oracle were/are firmly behind Java and good quality standards based Open Source is available. I have replaced $20,000 OTG (Oracle Transparent Gateway for DB2/400) on the AS/400 (which didn’t work with 9i) with 2 weeks of coding. Now AS/400 RPG or COBOL programs can easily access Oracle 9i (including RAC cluster), SQL Server 2000, etc. We have JBoss running all of our J2EE apps. I have JBoss running on AS/400, Windows and Linux. We actually have a choice of which OS/hardware we want to run our POJO or J2EE Java code base on.

    .Net or will work for some, Java and J2EE works for us.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  128. and the winner is...[ Go to top ]


    > OK, let us finish this discussion.

    Well, and since he cornered you, you just take the tangent. Nice way of dealing with arguments. Better leave indeed, and preserve what little is left of your credibility.

    >
    > Personally, I think this whole thread is a good example on the current state of J2EE.

    I agree: Java people discussing the rights and wrongs of earning $$ from Open Source, while some M$ zealots are trying to convince everyone that J2EE is the devil and that .net is the cure to cancer.

    I am beggining to picture Rolf as some of those nutsy long-bearded guys, standing on a street corner holding a sign, shouting out loud about the end of the world and the damnation of all sinners... :)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  129. No[ Go to top ]

    No, Rolf was one of those kids who always got picked on in the schoolyard. He wanted to tattle on the bullies, but he was afraid of how being a snitch would damage his image (he is the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons).

    So Rolf would compose anonymous letters to Der Principal of his school. "Ich Haiseh Comic Book Guy", they would start...

    By the end of the letter, the principal would have the name, number, address, and approximate age and height of the bully in question. In fact, Rolf's research on the bully was so complete, that the principal also knew where exactly the perpetrator in question would hang out between the hours of 4 and 5.

    One day, the principal caught up with said bully and led him back to the school detention room by the ear. 30 days of hard labor followed.

    When it was all over, the schoolyard was abuzz. "Did you hear," the kids would say, "Heinrich the bully got detention even though he didn't do all those awful things that the anonymous letter said!".

    It turned out that Rolf got a little too ambitious in his anonymous letter writing, and his words implicated the poor bully in things such as giving Rolf a wedgie twice a day (not true! it was only once!), stealing the milk money from Olga Klupdoop, spitting in Herr Heindorff's coffee (lies, all lies!!!), and other malicious scenarios.

    A seed was planted that day in young Rolf's mind... a dangerous seed... "Oh, the power," breathed Rolf, "...the impact of such things in more addictive than Mother's stroganoff."

    Rolf continued to collect comics and one day even had his own comic store. But he never forgot his roots, never forgot where he came from. Rolf could write, damn it, and this extraordinary talent carried him through many a hard time throughout his life.

    He now trolls theserverside.com as an adult. He has made friends with the bully (MicroSoft), and in an ironic way, has now begun picking on the people who used to be him.

    Annnnnnnnnd SCENE!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  130. Marc Fluery response[ Go to top ]

    <marc fluery>Points taken on the website.

    Do you prefer the look though? we are trying the more "pro" approach. I
    think it sucks but ben my sales guy is all excited about it... what do
    you think? we just released NUKES, the forums were switched and yes we
    lost a couple of hours of posts. Apologies and thanks for sending us
    broken links and stuff.

    As for the TSS "hate" it is not hate, it is simple jealousy. We said
    for the first time that we make money and that we share it.

    Put yourself in the shoes of the mediocrity that usually reads/writes
    there and he used to sit smug thinking about how DUMB we are because we
    do open source and we probably BEG for money and all of the sudden
    BAAAAM we make money while he struggles to keep his stupid company
    afloat.

    Jealousy is a deep reptilian feeling that in fact takes precedence over
    common sense. It is a fact of life. The more success we have the more
    we are going to see of that, I mean think MS the biggest and baddest of
    them all attracts even more jealousy.

    Meaning: let them be jealous and lets stay the course, we will start
    receiving resumes from these mediocrities that never wrote a line of OSS
    code in the coming weeks,

    stay the course

    </marcfluery>
    Reply to this Reply to original

  131. To Marc Fluery[ Go to top ]

    Denis Diderot (1713-1784) author, encyclopedist,
    & philosopher:

    "I can stand thieves, murderers and ruffians - it is all part of life’s multitude, I have more problems with the intellectual hypocrisy in the world"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  132. "he was noted for his humility"[ Go to top ]

    Colon,

    Your accusations are untrue! In fact, I am doing something about my situation at this very moment! I went to the doctor complaining about my compulsion to post in TSS and I am now on a training program – not allowed more than one post a day. I only hope I will be able to follow the program! It was a horrifying experience, you can tell, you were forced to stand up in front of everybody and say, "My name is Rolf, I am a TSS addict!" And everybody said "hola Rolf".

    I am also planning to sue Floyd for luring innocent people (and under aged too!) into reading TSS. That will cost him! It is a shame – what kind of business is he in actually, does he not have any kind of responsibility?

    BTW isn’t TCC located in Columbia?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (my guiding principle have always been simple modesty..)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  133. Good[ Go to top ]

    Well, knowing about your illness is half the battle Rolf. Congratulations on getting this far, and Godspeed to you.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  134. re:smoking my crack pipe, puff, puff.[ Go to top ]

    <crack induced comment>
    That seems very vague reasons to me, JNDI and hot-deploy works in Tomcat
    <crack induced comment>

    JNDI and hot deploy didn't work two years ago before we switched to JBoss. That's just what got us started, not why we have used it for two years now. Also, we use jbossweb Jetty instead of Tomcat, but I'm sure you think the JBoss will slow that down a lot also, correct? Do you understand that the real latency for any app server is usually the datastore?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  135. smoking my crack pipe, puff, puff..[ Go to top ]

    That seems very vague reasons to me, JNDI and hot-deploy works in Tomcat - so your main reason then - should be performance! You are trying to convince me that JBoss that is build on top of Tomcat should be faster! Sorry I do not buy that..Even without EJB the app server is bound to be slower because you are introducing another layer..

    >

    Except that there is no layer in question here. Had you bothered to know anything about JBoss' architecture and bridging to web application servers, you'd know that JBoss does not wrap a layer over the HTTP request activity and thus does not impose a performance penalty through the introduction of an additional layer. There is no layer. JBossWeb essentially provides backend tools so that other people can make their Servlet containers manageable for deploys/undeploys and MBean management.

    In fact, JBoss is not built on top of Tomcat, and anybody who's bothered to know anything about JBoss would know such a statement is absurd. You can very easily run JBoss without ANY web container. What little HTTP serving it needs (for RMI downloads and such) it can provide itself. Remove Jetty or Tomcat, and you have a perfectly fine EJB continer. Shoot...you can remove the EJB container if you want to and just boot the MBean server and JMX microkernel.

    You could argue a slowdown on the grounds that Jetty or Tomcat must share a VM with the rest of JBoss, meaning that there are fewer total threads avaialable and those that exist must compete for the favor of the thread scheduler, but you didn't do that and I suspect it's because you not only know very little about JBoss architecture but actually know very little about the JVM or any multi-threaded runtime environment, including your OS' kernel.

    You just look silly when you talk about things you're underqualified to speak on. Do yourself a favor and restrict your gesticulations to what you know.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  136. good try[ Go to top ]

    I hope there is nobody that wonders why I am not answering – the reason is of course the general tone in the latest posts.

    I do not want to be drawn into a flame war just for telling the truth. As I said many times before "People with that attitude and such language can never be right".

    As for the truth, as far as I know - Resin is the fastest of all webcontainers, closely followed by Tomcat. Both Resin and Tomcat beat all "big J2EE App Servers" by a good marginal. Jboss is the lowest performing of all – as well as the most unstable.

    Then you can flame me, mark me as noisy or do what you want..it does not make Jboss any better..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  137. Rolf - A character indeed[ Go to top ]

    Hey Rolf,

    You sure are a character. When I first started reading your posts they pissed me off. Over time I have come to realize that you hit on alot of raw nerves in the Java community....which I am starting to appreciate. Sometimes the truth is painful. Not that I agree with most of what you say (I am a hard core java programmer and a Micro$oft basher). Don't let the "java extremists" run you off....it appears that over time your posts have been more on topic and have generated a ton of activity on TSS's forums (are you a TSS employee...maybe Floyd's alter ego?).

    As far as your comment on Resin, I agree. I don't build open source stuff, I write apps for multi-million dollar corporations....which depend on rock-solid performance.

    My gripe with JBoss is the arrogance....if their product is so great, let it speak for itself. At first I thought it was just my personal opinion and bad experience with JBoss....until I read that alot of other people think the same way and have had the same experiences with JBoss. A great company isn't built on arrogance.

    Regards,
    Tom
    Reply to this Reply to original

  138. Rolf - A character indeed[ Go to top ]

    Hey Rolf,

    >
    > You sure are a character. When I first started reading your posts they pissed me off. Over time I have come to realize that you hit on alot of raw nerves in the Java community....which I am starting to appreciate. Sometimes the truth is painful. Not that I agree with most of what you say (I am a hard core java programmer and a Micro$oft basher). Don't let the "java extremists" run you off....it appears that over time your posts have been more on topic and have generated a ton of activity on TSS's forums (are you a TSS employee...maybe Floyd's alter ego?).

    Rolf's intent is to create noise, so no, his presence here is not good for anyone (unless you work for M$). It's ok to touch some nerves, expose the wounds, so we can evolve faster, fix whats wrong and move along. But Rolf keeps doing that just for the fun of it.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  139. re:Rolf - A character indeed[ Go to top ]

    <tom>
    Don't let the "java extremists" run you off....
    <tom>

    I do not think any one is trying to run Rolf off. If you counter one of Rolf's comments with real evidence then you are a "Java extremist"? Rolf has a right to post his silly comments just as I have a right to reply to them. Nothing extreme there.

    <tom>
    As far as your comment on Resin, I agree. I don't build open source stuff, I write apps for multi-million dollar corporations....which depend on rock-solid performance.
    <tom>

    So using your theory Open Source Servlet containers must perform poorly compared to commercial containers?
    http://www.webperformanceinc.com/library/ServletReport/#results would dictate otherwise.

    <tom>
    My gripe with JBoss is the arrogance....if their product is so great, let it speak for itself. At first I thought it was just my personal opinion and bad experience with JBoss....until I read that alot of other people think the same way and have had the same experiences with JBoss. A great company isn't built on arrogance.
    <tom>

    Yea, Marc F. can be a bit much at times, but like you stated let JBoss succeed or fail on its own merits. Larry Ellison and Scott McNealy could be considered arrogate. Are Sun and Oracle not considered great companies? I'm not condoning arrogance or saying JBoss group can be compared to billion dollar companies, but your logic doesn't hold up. Maybe doing the "Monkey Boy" dance is considered a sign of a great company?
    http://www.flamingmailbox.com/maccomedy/movies/dancemonkeyboy.html
    Reply to this Reply to original

  140. Self-irony is a good thing[ Go to top ]

    To have a little humor is a good thing too.
    When I see Marc making fun of himself maybe I would take him more seriously..
    Reply to this Reply to original

  141. re:Rolf - A character indeed[ Go to top ]

    Steven,

    Your counterpoints are well written and I appreciate a good debate.....I love open source, just not JBoss.

    As far as the "Dancing Monkey Boy" goes, if the war lasts too much longer, most CIOs may be willing to give that a shot...anything to stimulate business :-)

    Regards,
    Tom
    Reply to this Reply to original

  142. good try[ Go to top ]

    I hope there is nobody that wonders why I am not answering – the reason is of course the general tone in the latest posts.


    My guess is that since all your claims have been clearly refuted, you again are taking the easy way out. Its getting repetitive.

    Funny thing is, you just dont try to stand you point, you just go around throwing new FUD after another, or giving lame excuses for leaving a discussion, never getting to the bottom of anything, when refuted. In some forums, this behaviour would be regarded as trolling.

    You already stated the reason why you keep posting here: it's just for you own amusement. You pretend to say serious things, posting flame baits all around, adding nothing to the community. I´d like to know what takes someone to do something like that, waste so much of his (and other people's) time. Must be really amusing.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  143. good try (cough cough)[ Go to top ]

    Yea we get it Rolf, JBoss sucks in your opinion. Any time your are faced with a refute based on technical merit instead of your FUD it's always wrong.

    Take a look at:

    http://www.webperformanceinc.com/library/ServletReport/#results

    Here, I'll save you some time:

    <quote>
    And the winner is...
    As stated at the outset of this report, there is no clear winner. Several servers distinguished themselves in different aspects of servlet performance. Since raw performance is only a small part of the overall value provided by these servers, you will have to weigh all the factors (performance, administration, value-added features, price) and pick the best solution for your application. I hope the information provided here will improve the quality of that decision!
    <quote>

    So you see Rolf, in the real world PPS (pages per second) is not the only metric that matters. The persistence store is usually the bottle neck in most app servers including .Net.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  144. good try[ Go to top ]

    I hope there is nobody that wonders why I am not answering &#8211; the reason is of course the general tone in the latest posts.<


    Not answering what? Not answering me? I told you that you were talking beyond your expertise when you made comments about JBoss. Why did I do that? Because you were very blatently wrong. Let's review:

    * You said JBoss imposes a layer around Tomcat. I said that it does not. That is because it does not, and anyone who has run JBoss, read up on JBoss, or looked at the JBoss source code would know this. I have done all three, and I do. You don't know these things (evidenced by your statements), thus it's a reasonable assumption that if you have done any of those three activities, you learned little from it.

    * You said JBoss was built over Tomcat. I said that it is not. That is because it is not, and anyone who has run JBoss, read up on JBoss, or looked at the JBoss source code would know this. I have done all three, and I do. You don't know these things (evidenced by your statements), thus it's a reasonable assumption that if you have done any of those three activities, you learned little from it.

    > I do not want to be drawn into a flame war just for telling the truth. As I said many times before "People with that attitude and such language can never be right".
    >

    ...which is interesting, because the statements "JBoss puts a layer over Tomcat" and "JBoss is build over Tomcat" are both false, and so you are not telling the truth. You're being called on stating misinformation. Be glad I'm just suggesting that you're ignorant. The only other alternative is that you're a liar or a troll.

    > As for the truth, as far as I know - Resin is the fastest of all webcontainers, closely followed by Tomcat. Both Resin and Tomcat beat all "big J2EE App Servers" by a good marginal. Jboss is the lowest performing of all &#8211; as well as the most unstable.
    >

    As for the truth, JBoss is not a Servlet container, and it wouldn't be able to handle Servlets without the administrator using Jetty, Tomcat, or Resin. Tomcat deployed in JBoss will be slower than Tomcat alone because they will have to share threads, but the difference is not highly significant because of the thread pooling activities in JBoss. Thus, the comparison is moot.

    Again. Say it with me. "JBoss is not a Servlet container. Unlike commercial J2EE servers, JBoss uses a third-party container like Jetty or Tomcat. JBoss is a JMX microkernel that can be used for a variety of distributed component architectures."

    > Then you can flame me, mark me as noisy or do what you want..it does not make Jboss any better..
    >

    *pastes hand to forehead* Oh, you're such a martyr.

    The funny thing is that you're the only one playing games here. If I rip on .Net, it's because I've done my homework. *pats hardcopy of the ECMA standard for CLI*

    When I rip on Java or J2EE, it's for the same reason. *pats hardcopy of J2EE and JVM specs*

    I'm equal-opportunity with respect to brutal analysis. Don't confuse being in my line of fire with being in a flamewar. Say something correct or meaningful, and I'm happy to support it.

    And yes, Resin and Tomcat are fast Servlet containers, but begin denying user requests much sooner than Jetty, SunONE, or Websphere.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  145. I am not in the giving vein to-day[ Go to top ]

    I see that I have not made myself clear. If you want to compel my attention - do not make personal attack or in any way behave rude an impolite. I have a very simple rule - I just ignore it.

    Sincerely
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  146. Re: good try[ Go to top ]

    Rolf wrote:
    > Both Resin and Tomcat beat all "big J2EE App Servers" by a good marginal. (sic)

    Nice of you to quote your sources. Let's assume they are the Rice/Rubis study (it may not be but that study is informative in itself)...

    1) The configurations take one box talking to a DB and compare it against an ejb arrangement where it interposes a second box. The overhead of the extra communication layer is always going to handicap the EJB configuration in the kind of test that they performed. (Moral - only separate the web server and the app server if it is absolutely necessary).

    2) The set-up they used for JBoss 2.4 was flawed (they used default settings, where they were inappropriate), meaning that the entity cache was 1/300 of the required size. (Moral - treat entity beans as a DB data cache and set the entity bean cache size appropriately).

    3) The release of JBoss 3.0 they tested had a thread starvation bug. Rice have not repeated their tests with a later version. (Moral - don't extrapolate results from one test).


    This is not a flame Rolf, but in the first posts of yours I saw on TheServerSide, you were asking a number of (apparently) innocent questions. When people tried to answer (in good faith) those questions, it rapidly became apparent that you already had a very active agenda, which was pre-established and remains to this day.

    Intellectuals seek to move the conversation forward to form new ideas and cover new ground, pseudo-intellectuals hide under the guise of informed criticisms about old topics, and stick to the same, safe, ground.

    You categorise yourself with every post Rolf, so let's move on from 'Does EJB work?' to 'When and how best does EJB work?'

    /david
    Reply to this Reply to original

  147. what shall we talk about?[ Go to top ]

    pseudo-intellectual - pompous, carping, windbag

    Why should I bother to answer? Give me one good reason!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  148. enough of your nonsense[ Go to top ]

    If you can't make a reasoned reply, then just go away.

    Dion/Floyd - can we set up the message board so TQ and Rolf (same person?) see their messages but no one else does? Maybe call it "Virtual Banishment" (tm).

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  149. answer this one question....[ Go to top ]

    pseudo-intellectual - pompous, carping, windbag

    >
    > Why should I bother to answer? Give me one good reason!

    Rolf,
    I doubt if anyone cares whether or not you answer. Ironically, the quote you use "People with that attitude and
    such language can never be right" sums up my thoughts regarding most of your posts.
    I truly do not understand why someone who is so negative about J2EE would bother to monitor this site 24/7
    making the same anti-J2EE comments over and over.
    So here is the simple question I would like you to answer, and I apologize in advance if it offends you:
    Are you compensated by Microsoft in any way for praising Microsoft & .Net while making negative comments and
    spreading misinformation about J2EE?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  150. what shall we talk about?[ Go to top ]

    pseudo-intellectual - pompous, carping, windbag

    >
    > Why should I bother to answer? Give me one good reason!

    If you still want to be taken seriously here, for example. Or have your opinion respected by others. Or to show that you not just another troll. Or to prove that your claims are not just FUD spreading.

    But never mind, it`s clear that you are here just to spread FUD and flame baits, and nothing else. You can just go on like that, until nobody gives a damn about anything you say. Its not far from happening.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  151. 2c amateur-psychology (revisited)[ Go to top ]

    Why ".Net App Server"

    As nobody seems to like to answer my question I have done some serious thinking myself and have come up with the following conclusion.

    There are "shoe-snobs" and "wine-snobs" and "first-edition snobs" and so on.. Everyone is a snob in some area! - you only have to look long enough.

    The .Net people base their self-esteem on the "Big .Net App Server" - with ADO.NET data classes and all. It makes them fell superior (nothing wrong in that – it is the same as shoe-snobs, wine-snobs etc). But take that away from them, expose it as unnecessary – and you take away their self-esteem! Ponder for instance this comment on .NET Pet Shop: "Is the whole .Net good practice shebang too costly for .Net performance or should we just use ASP.NET instead or any other scripting lang?" Notice the longing, the yearning for the lost and unattainable..

    It is this hopeless love .Net that is going to cost .Net the first place in Enterprise – mission critical systems.

    Regards
    Steven P. Goldsmith

    Now do you see how ridiculous this is?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  152. 2-bit story teller (out of america)[ Go to top ]

    ... and there is a country, where mapmakers draw maps of the world, and when they get to the edge of the known world they draw dragons, and they write signs, "Beyond this point there be dragons."

    I lately dedicated some time to ASP.Net in a project and experienced, that a dragon might just turn out to be a fluffy pet. And although I do not dare to completely compare 6yrs of Java with 3months of dotnet, at least I'm not afraid of dotnet anymore like I used to be, when I heard everybody and their cousins talkin about it. There is no spoon aeh dragon.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  153. J2EE App Server[ Go to top ]

    Rolf wrote:
    > "Is the whole J2ee good practice shabang too costly for J2ee performance or should we just use PHP instead or any other scripting lang?"

    The whole key to EJB (after _all_ this time, Rolf, you are _still_ confusing J2EE with EJB!) performance is in the architecture... and the architecture needed is very dependent on the specific requirements of the application.

    That is why a lot of the performance tests (like the Rice University Rubis study) end up testing configurations that (as an architect) you would consciously _AVOID_ using in a system that required performance.

    Yes, I would agree that the EJB specification has taken a long route to get to a spec that is really usable in the real world (and there are still some situations where I wouldn't use EJBs). However the fact remains that building distributed, scalable, highly available systems is _difficult_, making such a framework that allows code just to be dropped in is doubly so.

    /david
    Reply to this Reply to original

  154. the silent majority[ Go to top ]

    David,

    after _all_ this time, Rolf, you are _still_ confusing J2EE with EJB

    For ca one hundred years go presiden McKinley was shot. He did not die immediately, but about a week later of blood poisening - after a number of persons had tried to remove the bullet from the wound with their fingers. So little did they knew about medicine and the human body in those days.

    In a hundred years from now, they will be as shocked over our medical practice today as we today are over the medical practice one hundred years ago.

    No, I am not confusing J2EE with EJB:

    What I am advocating is that you can use J2EE with ordinary Webcontainers + J2EE components - both Open Source and proprietary. In another thread on the board it was remarked that the .NET deveolpers was mainly silent (not discussing). What they failed to noticed however, was that it is a large silent majority that is using Tomcat, Jetty, Resin with J2EE for both large and small projects. In fact, Tomcat alone dwarfs all the "big J2EE App Servers" in usage, including Jboss and Weblogic.

    Every year when there is a new version of EJB, the previous version is thoroughly bashed. But when the previous version was alive so to speak – the hype was the same.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  155. More FUD from Rolf...[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    <Rolf>
    Every year when there is a new version of EJB, the previous version is thoroughly bashed. But when the previous version was alive so to speak – the hype was the same.
    <Rolf>

    This is nonsense! I have never heard anyone "thoroughly bash" previous versions of EJB (except MS trolls) - You are obviously really talking about the issues with entity beans which (as I’m sure you know because it has been pointed out to you on several previous occasions) do not comprise the whole EJB spec. Session beans have hardly changed since version 1.0 because they actually work very well, and always have.

    Once again you are pulling your usual stunt of deliberately confusing technologies to spread FUD.

    You make negative comments about J2EE when you are really talking about EJB.
    You complain about EJB when you are really talking about entity beans.

    <Rolf>
    Rickard,

    please, please

    I forgive you all your political writings if only you get some VC behind you and fork JBoss! I never ask anything else again..
    <Rolf>

    Why would you possibly want this? You have stated time and time again that you see no need for EJB...

    The obvious reason is that you just like to try and stir up trouble on Java sites (as I seem to rememebr you actually admitting in another forum topic post). Do MS actually pay you for wasting your time in such an unconstructive fashion, or do you really have (as others have suggested) a compulsive disorder? Either way, I pity you.

    Regards,
    Lawrie.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  156. the silent majority[ Go to top ]

    No, I am not confusing J2EE with EJB:


    Oh yes, you are. Its blatantly clear, you have shown this lack of knowledge many times here.

    >
    > What I am advocating is that you can use J2EE with ordinary Webcontainers + J2EE components - both Open Source and proprietary. In another thread on the board it was remarked that the .NET deveolpers was mainly silent (not discussing). What they failed to noticed however, was that it is a large silent majority that is using Tomcat, Jetty, Resin with J2EE for both large and small projects. In fact, Tomcat alone dwarfs all the "big J2EE App Servers" in usage, including Jboss and Weblogic.

    What you are "advocating" is nothing new, every good developer knows that! Of course there's more Tomcat usage!! The number of small projects is much greater than very big projects that demand "big app servers"! So obvious, but you dont want to see things straight, you just want to bash blindly.

    And why use "big app servers"? well, that was answered in this very thread before, but you just choose to ignore. Pathetic.

    More pathetic when you realise .NET has "copied" most of J2EE concepts, including its language. So, in a way, to say you dont need "big J2EE app servers", is to say you dont need .NET too. How ironic.

    >
    > Every year when there is a new version of EJB, the previous version is thoroughly bashed. But when the previous version was alive so to speak – the hype was the same.

    Oh Rolf... so many obvious things... Nothing new here, again. Just compare VB with VB.NET, Windows XP with Windows Me, and you will come to the same conclusion. Things evolve, it's natural. It's a pity that some M$ people dont.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  157. the silent majority[ Go to top ]

    More pathetic when you realise .NET has "copied" most of J2EE concepts, including its language. So, in a way, to say you dont need "big J2EE app servers", is to say you dont need .NET too. How ironic.

    >

    "Copied" its language? You mean C# being a Java copy? Maybe if it was a copy drawn by crayon in the hands of an infant. The grammar and structure of C# transcends the notion of "brain dead design", and there's even a documented history of MS being told by other companies (including Borland) that its design ideas for C# were bad.

    Any language that has to include the keyword "unsafe" is sending you a message.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  158. FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH[ Go to top ]

    This is my first ever post on the Serverside. I am Daniel Fleury. In a forum where so many speak with hidden faces or identities, at least, I want to have mine known. I am the father of Marc and... of the JBoss Group compensation plan. Both are receiving a lot of critics on this thread.

    I am going to defend the compensation plan and let Marc defend himself. He is perfectly capable of doing it, and pretty soon, his (underline HIS) white paper, called "white" will be published and explain his vision about where the open source business is heading.

    Back to the compensation plan.

    This plan was designed to reward the KNOWLEDGE that has made JBoss possible. It is a plan which offers to JBoss developers-- PRESENT OR PAST-- a stake in the JBoss Group LLC, and for some, a share in the last business year's profits, in cash. Is that "whoring ourselves", "betraying the very spirit of open source","becoming the likes of BEA, SUN, IBM, MSN"? Is that manipulative, arrogant ?

    I let the independent minds judge.

    When an open source group wants to become a bit more than a loose congregation of software geeks and earn a living out of it, what are the solutions offered? Pass around the hat to get some money ?... create "for money extensions"(plugs in your language) around the base product and sell "close product" alongside the base?... get VC money?... get in bed with the big guys with deep pockets? etc...

    We have chosen to continue to be independent and to reward OUR people rather than give stakes of our newborn Services company to VCs buying their ownership with capital money. Frankly, having read through all those posts, I still fail to understand why this is wrong.

    We make some money through associated services to JBoss? Yes, we do and we are proud of it. Again, what is wrong with that?

    Getting a bit more personal, let me tell you-- even if you don't give a rat's ass-- that I am an old business guy, having worked for 32 years in one of those Fortune 100 companies you revere and dislike at the same time. I have sided with Marc wholeheartedly on the compensation plan because I think it's fair, novel and totally consistent with the open source values that Marc cherishes so much (believe it or not).

    Last, a personal note to Rickard which I have the pleasure to know. Rickard, please read a second time the letter which was sent to you. To start with, there are NO STRINGS ATTACHED to the offer. You can accept , LIKE ALL THE DEVELOPERS REWARDED, the options, even if you are not employed by JBG and if you do not plan to be anymore employed by JBG. They( the stock options) are yours and will not become void. You can keep them as long as you want, at no cost to you, and one day, maybe, they will be worth something.
    Likewise, the cash awarded to you as a share of the 2002 (small) profits is yours. Give us your mail address and we will send the check to you.
    If you disagree with what I say, I ask you to please publish in this thread the letter which Marc sent to you to inform you that you were a recipient of the plan.

    End of a long post (please excuse me), there are certainly many things Marc can be blamed for... I am his father.. but don't throw tomatoes at a plan which in itself recognizes what you, independent developers have to bring to the party, that is talent and knowledge.

    Daniel Fleury
    Reply to this Reply to original

  159. FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH[ Go to top ]

    "Last, a personal note to Rickard which I have the pleasure to know. Rickard, please read a second time the letter which was sent to you. To start with, there are NO STRINGS ATTACHED to the offer. You can accept , LIKE ALL THE DEVELOPERS REWARDED, the options, even if you are not employed by JBG and if you do not plan to be anymore employed by JBG. They( the stock options) are yours and will not become void. You can keep them as long as you want, at no cost to you, and one day, maybe, they will be worth something.
    Likewise, the cash awarded to you as a share of the 2002 (small) profits is yours. Give us your mail address and we will send the check to you.
    If you disagree with what I say, I ask you to please publish in this thread the letter which Marc sent to you to inform you that you were a recipient of the plan. "

    Chapeau bas!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  160. Marc Fleury's dad to the rescue!!!!!!!!![ Go to top ]

    What is with this country? Grown up men running to their dads for help when the chips are down. Sounds verrry familiar, doesn't a certain dubya do that as well? :-)

    Gee!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  161. Re: FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH[ Go to top ]

    Daniel, thanks for your post. You certainly have guts to post here, in this quagmire we call TSS

    I'm not quite sure what purpose it would serve to publish the letter, but since you requested it I'll do it.

    But first, some context. Marc contacted me in the last days of December, and to make a long story short I ended up writing the following to him:
    "After your behaviour on the board and other things you have done/do I have no desire to work with you anymore. You're on your own.

    What I have a big problem with you is that you continuously lie about JBoss and it's capabilities (did you know that hot-deploy has never worked properly for example?), and you're seemingly totally unaware of it. I can't work with people who lie to others and themselves like you do."

    With this I thought I was finally rid of Marc. I did not want to hear from him, or have another "proposal" or anything. Knowing how Marc is quick to say "well, **** off then" I honestly thought that was it.

    And then, I get the "compensation plan" offer. Now, funnily enough, if you had only sent the "compensation plan", as is, I probably would have accepted it. If you want to give me money, fine, I'll let you. But, as I said in a previous post that wasn't all there was to it, since there was an attached letter from Marc (or so I thought). Without further ado here's the letter:
    "
    Hi kiddo,

    As your guy in charge of the compensation plan, it’s my pleasure to inform you that the JBoss Group 2002 Compensation Committee has awarded you the following Economic Interest Options and cash award:

    Economic Interest Options: 1,110 (One thousand one hundred and ten)
    Cash Award: $ 750 (Seven hundred and fifty)

    This is a special consideration, which has to be treated in utmost confidence.

    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that these awards are very much deserved.
    I always was impressed with your sheer technological insights and how you joined me in the early days to give us an architecture that will stand the test of time. Even the modern AOP thoughts are finding a friendly and natural ground in JBoss.

     In the future I really want you to come back to JBoss Group services one day. I think it is a bit of a shame that your current work doesn’t meet its rightful audience. JBoss 5.0 is that future platform for Application AOP (as opposed to system AOP JB4). You are too big a talent to be working behind closed doors. We do have a thriving business that would welcome you. Keep it in mind please.

    Attached to this letter, you’ll find an “Option Agreement” form. You’ll also find a request for additional information, which we need in order to i) send you by regular mail the final agreement and ii) send you a check for your money award -- or, alternatively, do a bank transfer for non-US residents.
    A legal summary of our option program is on the option agreement form. Would you need a complete descriptive of the program, we would be happy to send you one by regular mail, together with the check for your money award.

    Action required from you:
    1.Print both attachments,
    2.If you accept the options awarded to you, just sign a copy of the option agreement.
    3.Complete the request for information ( also indicating whether you need to receive the complete legal summary of the incentive plan).
    4.Send back to us: JBoss Group. (attention Stephen Hobbs)
                                     Suite 211.
                                     3500 Piedmont Rd, NE.
                                     ATLANTA, GA 30305
        
    When we receive those two documents, the following will happen:
    1.I (Marc) will sign the option agreement, retain one copy for our files and send you the final document signed by both parties.

    2.Together with the signed option agreement. We’ll send your check for the 2002 cash award (or transfer it for non US residents) and, if requested the legal descriptive of the incentive plan.

    Important note: Even if you decide not to accept the options (I don’t know why, but who knows), you are still entitled to receive the money award, so make sure you send us the relevant information to forward it to you.

    Hey, I know that this is a bit of a complicated process, but lawyers are a pain…or, said more positively, we want to do it right.

    Rickard, I really feel we are reaching a new dimension in our exhilarating JBoss adventure. We are becoming a company and I am so glad you are part of it. It is our expectation that the awards will grow as the company grows and, I know that, as an owner of economic interest, you’ll be more committed than ever to make this happen.

    My sincere thanks,

    Marcf

    President and Founder
    JBoss Group LLC
    "

    My response was that it was arrogant, assumptuous, and manipulative, and I still think so, especially in light of my previous email to him explaining quite clearly that I have absolutely no interest in joining JBoss Group. In Marc's view the only possible way for me to be successful is if it's with JBoss Group. How could any other career be viable, especially for a "genius" such as myself? The mind boggles.

    To make things worse, the letter may be signed Marc, but it is actually written by Daniel, his father. Imagine that, Marc has a speechwriter.

    The response I wrote also stated that I did not want to hear from him ever again, for any reasons. A day later I get another email from him, which contains the following:
    "
    Let's face it Rickard, apart from JBoss2 and XDoclet, which again we
    funded through Telkel, your work has been marginal. I repeat that your
    genius deserves a wider audience than the rest of your work has seen.
    Only with us and our distribution and management of the group did you
    ever see success.
    "

    In other words, in Marc's view the only way I could ever be succesful or happy is if I join JBoss Group. To me, the above is arrogant, assumptuous, and manipulative. And I cannot accept that.

    If Marc thinks that this thread is about "jealousy" that is a little sad. I guess he needs to rationalize others' dislike for his behaviour and actions somehow, but "jealousy" is perhaps a little off. I don't think anyone here is "jealous" of what he has "accomplished".

    That some people make money from OpenSource is a good thing. I do it, and I know many others who do it as well. But I prefer to do it with open cards, and without manipulating those I work with and provide a service to.

    regards,
      Rickard
    Reply to this Reply to original

  162. all is forgiven..[ Go to top ]

    Rickard,

    please, please

    I forgive you all your political writings if only you get some VC behind you and fork JBoss! I never ask anything else again..

    please..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  163. Rolf - what is your problem?[ Go to top ]

    I have seen your name here and there, mostly yelling on everything exept when it is about MS software... I really can't understand why all this make you so upset???

    From a thread a found on a site that might give some light on what you think is good technology and good business:

    " 
    Re: Are we ready to go with .NET anywhere?

    Name:
    Rolf Tollerud

    Posted At:
    00:07 GMT 01/28/2002

     When shall this bashing of Microsoft end? All my experience has been that Microsoft software is superior. The VJ++ and the MS JVM blowed away all competition, and the .NET? Programmers Paradise! I am constantly amazed to why Open source un-American movement gain so much space..I think you should read some stuff at www.softpanorama.org.
     The open source people can only make software by stealing.
    "
    Reply to this Reply to original

  164. sigh - again[ Go to top ]

    Lennart,

    This is the umteen times my old post have appered in TSS. For the record I meant Stallman and his flock, OSS is heterogeneous - not a single body.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  165. Re: FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH[ Go to top ]

    The letter wasn't pompous at all. All it's saying that here's some stuff for you. If you want it, great. It's in your own self-interest that JBoss do well, as far as those options go. If you don't care about that, that's fine, too.

    It's basically just a shareholder comment. "We're all in this together" sort of thing.

    It is capitalism, but it's pretty standard capitalism. Nothing to be afraid of.
    Steve
    Reply to this Reply to original

  166. Paragraph[ Go to top ]

    It's this last paragraph that strikes me:

    "Rickard, I really feel we are reaching a new dimension in our exhilarating JBoss adventure. We are becoming a company and I am so glad you are part of it. It is our expectation that the awards will grow as the company grows and, I know that, as an owner of economic interest, you’ll be more committed than ever to make this happen."

    Awards = monetary compensation, so as an owner, you will be committed to helping the company make money in your own self-interest ("more committed than ever"). It appears manipulative and condescending. For people not motivated by money (yes, we all like being paid, but some people don't take payment as their primary motivation)...yeah, it'd piss me off, Rickard.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  167. Paragraph[ Go to top ]

    This is hilarious. The JBoss folks simply can't win. Either they are:

    a) Idealists. No-concern-for-the-real-world, trying-to-change-the-world-communists.

    b) Selfish bastards, only going for the almighty buck, with a complete lack of values and hatred of anyone "not motivated by money," as Elaine says.

    All of you JBoss-haters out there, please make up your mind what kind of evil genius Marc Fleury is, so I won't be so confused as to exactly why I should hate JBoss too. :)

    Steve Lewis.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  168. NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    I agree with Steve Lewis.

    There is nothing wrong with the JBoss offer letter. Standard run of the mill capitalism.

    Rickard, thanks for posting it, and-- what the HECK is your problem?? Either take the money or SHUT THE HECK UP man!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  169. NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    Can we keep this about open source and compensation models and not about these two idiots fleury and oberg and their severe personality defects?

    Is it just me or is anyone else annoyed that these two bit-players hijack the community's attention in this way? I thought we were moving on but apparently not.

    We use open source. Most people in my company think they are both right about each other! Fleury ("Junior", that is) is arrogant and assumptuous and Oberg is a jealous loser, whose contributions even including xdoclet and the minor ones to jboss, really are quite marginal in the grand scheme of things.

    So let us say they are both right and move on.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  170. Re: NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    Shankar wrote:
    > these two bit-players

    So who are the important people in this community, in your opinion? JBoss is making a huge impact on this community (just look at the size of this discussion), one way or another.

    > Fleury ("Junior", that is) is arrogant and assumptuous

    Yes - in the same way that Bill Gates, Scott McNealy, Steve Jobs and the other leaders of industry are: They are all utterly convinced that they are right, determined to get what they want and don't mind breaking a few eggs to make an omelet!

    I'm not excusing Marc, but those people who make things happen fall into that personality profile.

    > Oberg is a jealous loser, whose contributions even including xdoclet and the minor ones to jboss, really are quite marginal

    Uh-huh? The entire interceptor architecture and dynamic proxy architecture of JBoss is a 'minor contribution'? Rickard was doing lazy loading dynamic RMI proxies in 1998 when the rest of us were just doing stubs and skeletons...

    > So let us say they are both right and move on.

    That I agree with - let's discuss the facts, not the personalities - they are, after all, human beings, not public property.

    /david
    Reply to this Reply to original

  171. interceptors are old[ Go to top ]

    > Oberg is a jealous loser, whose contributions even including xdoclet and the minor ones to jboss, really are quite marginal

    >
    > Uh-huh? The entire interceptor architecture and dynamic proxy architecture of JBoss is a 'minor contribution'? Rickard was doing lazy loading dynamic RMI proxies in 1998 when the rest of us were just doing stubs and skeletons...
    >

    CORBA had Portable Interceptors back in 1996. Anybody following the specs could have used these ideas. In fact, Iona, was one of the main driving forces behind Portable Interceptors and interceptor technology was one of the main architectural advantages of Orbix 2000. (I should know, I was on the team that developed O2K). So, painting Rickard as revolutionary is just a plain exageration. I never understood Marc's awe of Rickard. I've work with many more people that could spank Rickard like a baby. The differences is, they are busy creating great software and don't have the time to post on message boards or write fanciful delusions about aliens and men in black.

    As far as JBossGroup riding on the backs of OSS developers, that's a load of shit. Let me tell you, contributing to OSS is much much easier than building a business. Contributing to an OSS project in your spare time is much easier than staking you and your family's livelihood on doing it fulltime. Most of us are not students, independently wealthy, or people like Rickard who can use their celebrity to get naive employers to fund/employ them. Building a business takes guts, lots of effort, and a high degree of stress on your life and those of your family. Think of what Marc has done WITHOUT VC MONEY! And he's giving ca$h back to the community! Yes, Marc is arrogant, but even if he wasn't, he'd have to be for people to take JBoss and JBossGroup seriously.

    Personally, I fought tooth and nail against giving any kind of ca$h bonus or shares of JBG to ANYBODY not under the JBossGroup umbrella. My simple reason being that JBoss contributors do not stake their livelihood on JBoss as a business. Let me tell you I was the one dissenting voice at JBossGroup on this. Marc, Nathalie, Marc's father, and Scott Stark were extremely adamant about giving back to the community and continuing to do so.

    So, I take Rickard's refusal of acceptance of the offer quite personally since I could really have used the money to pay the bills. I've staked my livelihood on OSS, have you Rickard? Has anybody posting here staked their personal livelihood on OSS? I have. My pregnant wife has too.

    Regards,

    Bill Burke
    Reply to this Reply to original

  172. tears of an OSS rockstar[ Go to top ]

    I've staked my livelihood on OSS, have you Rickard? Has anybody posting here staked their personal livelihood on OSS? I have. My pregnant wife has too.

    snifff... a hanky, please...

    Really can't hear you guy's crap anymore. One day you call yourself a "rockstar" [!], the other day your hero calls his father to defend him, the next day you whine your OSS tears into the forum.

    My deep respect to Rickard, not jumping on your train, destination Nirvana.

    -- Andreas (wife is pregnant, too)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  173. tears of an OSS rockstar[ Go to top ]

    Andreas,

    why don't you take your dumb ass back into the hole where you dragged it out from and try to convince us all again how no serious messaging server implementation ever needs to sync to the disc -- an UPS will be enough!

    /T
    Reply to this Reply to original

  174. re: interceptors are old[ Go to top ]

    Bill,

    I would like to clarify my post (and it is a qualification that I thought about placing in my post, but left out for the sake of brevity...):

    By defending Rickard's work for JBoss, I was merely trying to defend him against the accusation that his contributions were of no worth.

    I certainly wasn't trying to say that his work was the only work of note in JBoss, or that he was the only one to bring ideas to the project - that is clearly not the case, and I apologise if that was the way that the message read. Nor was I aiming to minimise the time and hard work that a large number of people have put into JBoss.

    > CORBA had Portable Interceptors back in 1996. Anybody following the specs could have used these ideas. (snip) I should know, I was on the team that developed O2K.

    I'm sure that is 100% correct. All I was saying was that it was my understanding that Rickard introduced the concept to JBoss group, in a similar way that his posts to the RMI mailing lists were the first ones that I saw that raised the concept of dynamic proxies...

    > As far as JBossGroup riding on the backs of OSS developers...

    I assume you are referring to somebody else's post. I certainly have made no such assertion.

    Anyway, Bill, I do wish you and JBoss all the best for the future.

    /david
    Reply to this Reply to original

  175. Creating Win/ Win[ Go to top ]

    The wonderful aspect about open source is that it is about win/win. Having said that I would like to share my own experience working fulltime on a large open source project (expresso) regarding the evolution of open source:

    PROBLEM DEFINED
    ---------------------
    Open Source has increasingly moved mainstream into Fortune companies. That does have some ramifications which would serve open source to be addressed. As the users of open source these companies need more infrastructure (training, support etc) that open source provides. Some companies policies expressly prohibit them from using any product that does not have support available!! This hurts open source.

    The users of open source are generally corporations. Their requirements need to be addressed for open source in order for it to prosper fully. How can their needs be fullfilled?

    SOLUTION
    -------------
    One solution is the idea of independent developers joining together to form a "Services Group" umbella. The Services group operates to perform commercial work for the commercial users of open source is a win/win solution solving the problem of lack of support. This is the "disadvantage" of open source compared to its commercial counterparts. I suggest the following guidelines:

    - Keeping commercial separate from the open source project by creating a separate "Service" company is a logical solution which I feel is win/win for the developers and the companies needing services. Is the JBoss service company separate from the open source org? - from the sounds of it it appears so.
     
     - Participating developers can earn revenue (from part-time or full time efforts). With this depressed economy and some folks out of jobs, open source implementations and service may present developers with a win/win opportunity.

    I am in no position to comment on the JBoss arrangement since I have not seen it stated what the percentages of the revenue the developer earns. What is the percentage? Is the percentage fair? Can part time developers participate?

    - companies receive the best possible support services because the core developers know the product best.

    - the experience in the field by the developers furthers the open source evolution. Consulting in the field is a great way to get detailed feedback and ideas which benefits the open source project evolution directly.

    - from the developers I talked to they were not interested in the intanglement of equity and the responsibilities inherent thereof but rather were interested in a fair percentage of the revenue.

    MAKING A PROJECT SUCCEED
    -------------------------
    An open source site costs money to run and a lot of dedicated time to build a community. Without a leader open source project generally don't make it. Leaders spend their lives fulltime and long hours and contribute significantly to make a project succeed. I have busted my butt since mid 1999 when we released the expresso project as open source working fulltime on building the community. For several years and until quite recently it was not uncommon for me to work past midnight each day.

    While some projects have the benefit of a company financing the lead developer's salary, it is common sense and practical that folks that are not elsewhere employed that are dedicating their lives to working on an open source project fulltime need to earn a living. (I have just had a baby and have to be responsible too). Expresso would not have a strong community without the dedicated effort of several fulltime folks including myself that sacrified financially with little income during that time. We cannot support ourselves and pay bills that way.

    I might well imagine that Marc's intent is good - that is matching the need of companies asking for services and his/developers needs to earn a living from open source. And further that other open source developers benefit too from working under a common corporate umbrella.

    AN EXAMPLE
    ------------
    A win/win solution is via the concept of support and services to the community. We ourselves have created JGroup (a separate entity) under this umbrella community contributors provide services to corporations using Expresso. The services company is a practical approach because then the developers have the power of branding themselves; as well as the open source site generates the leads.

    For Expresso corporate users requiring services, JGroup is a consortium like umbrella which uses 1/3rd for overhead and the developers receive 2/3rds of the billing. Just as open source is managed by consensus, the JGroup is also managed by consensus by the group.

    Unlike its commercial counterparts, the concept has the advantage of offering:
    1. the developers who know the project best and can hence provide better services
    2. since the group is globally dispersed it can serve customers all over the world.

    In all a very win/win concept for the developers, the project (new ideas and more time for development), and the community who are the corporations needing services. I do not see any disadvantage to the project, nor any disrepect to the foundations of open source.

    The people using open source run their companies with it to earn money; why can't developer's earn money with their experience with it to serve the needs of the community? Where is this not win/win?

    My .02 cents
    Reply to this Reply to original

  176. I tried to make a living out of JBG, too[ Go to top ]

    Hi Bill

    Stop crying like a little baby, it doesn't suite you. You ran like a little telltale to Marc after I told you that I work on a J2EE application server and Marc used the occasion to kick me out. I know that some people in JBG made a lot of money and if you are not one of them then look for another job like I did. I know, you and Marc, will come and say that this is just my personal revenge on you but, sorry, it is just the truth.

    Also don't use your pregnat wife to shead pity because my wife was pregnat, too, when I was working for the JBG. This statements just shows how you guys manipulate other people.

    Based on my experience with Marc is that he is a Shark in the positive way, that JBoss would never have made it to what it is now and also in the negative way that he manipulate others to reach his goals and to get more power. He told me that my current position is a legal problem with the JBoss project and therefore he had to kick me out instead of just asking me to pause for as long as this problem exists. It just makes me wonder why it was not a problem for him to work for Sun and working on JBoss during his regular hours.

    Have fun - Andy
    Reply to this Reply to original

  177. Re: NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    David Hamilton: So who are the important people in this community, in your opinion?

    All the other contributors to JBoss for a start! Look in top right hand corner of this page. All the open source contributors in Serverside Symposium that are NOT jerks. People like Cameron Purdy who contribute but are level-headed and curteous. All the other open source contributors. All the people working for commercial companies, making innovations, or even helping the community understand them. Jboss is good. Jerks are not good for JBoss.

    David: JBoss is making a huge impact on this community (just look at the size of this discussion

    The impact is not as huge as the size of this discussion may imply. It is fueled by inflammatory comments by and about these bit-players which demonstrates my point that they move focus away from what's important.

    David: Fleury ("Junior", that is) is arrogant and assumptuous. Yes - in the same way that Bill Gates, Scott McNealy, Steve Jobs and the other leaders of industry are

    No. I would call that "intelligent" arrogance for lack of better word. Fleury and Oberg's arrogance is just stupidity. There is the set of people who make things happen, and the set of people who are arrogant jerks, and yes there is some overlap, but also large nonoverlapping portions in my experience.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  178. Re: NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    David> So who are the important people in this community, in your opinion?
    Shankar> All the open source contributors in Serverside Symposium that are NOT jerks.

    Can you please stop being so sweepingly judgemental about people? People are not necessarily jerks for having opinions or for disagreeing with each other...

    David: JBoss is making a huge impact on this community (just look at the size of this discussion
    Shankar> The impact is not as huge as the size of this discussion may imply.

    OK, look at the size of other discussions involving JBoss (the J2EE licensing one, for instance).

    No. I would call that "intelligent" arrogance for lack of better word. Fleury and Oberg's arrogance is just stupidity.

    There is only one ultimate discriminator between your 'intelligent' and 'stupid' groups of arrogance: That is success. Take Philippe Kahn of Borland as an example - hailed as brilliant right up to the point where Bill Gates finally defeated him (although some will claim that Kahn defeated himself!).

    At the moment JBoss is succeeding, so Marc is in the intelligent group. Only time will tell if this remains to be true, and, unless you have a time machine, you are certainly in no position to judge ;-)

    This conversation has already taken up more than enough bandwidth, and apparently has upset some people, so I for one intend to get on with something more useful (development, perhaps!).

    /david
    Reply to this Reply to original

  179. The purpose of Open Source[ Go to top ]

    From a business's point of view, "open-source" means that a software product is being developed free of charge. It means that software engineers around the world are free to take part in the development of the open-source software product in question. These engineers collaborate together to come up with a powerful software product, and in some cases, this software product has been developed to the point where it is a legitimate competitor to its peer software products that have been made by paid software engineers.

    So in reality, we have two camps; one who says that a software product can only be made the best it can be if you pay the engineers. The other camp's philosophy is that a software product can be made the best if people do it out of a passion for developing software.

    But both camps' fork in the road come to a merging point eventually. If both camps' software products are good enough to be used by the business community, then money must inevitably come into the equation. This is why we have Linux flavors for sale. Although Linux was free open-source software, products like Caldera and Red Hat were made "good enough" that businesses could buy them.

    And when a business buys something or decides to use it, the organization that created it MUST support it. This takes money.

    Judging from the article, it looks like the JBoss open-source group has recognized that the business community is ready to accept JBoss as a piece of its professional infrastructure. Marc Fleury and his group can either say No to this for whatever reason, or they can accept this natural movement and begin to provide an economically feasible environment in which JBoss can fulfill what the business community wants it to.

    The only criticism I see here as valid is that JBoss is going to be sold for money, and so people who work with it for free are going to either want some of that money for their efforts, or will have their work sold for profit anyway by those who control JBoss group. This means that Marc Fleury and the other execs of the JBoss group have to come up with a plan to deal with this new event. A plan that fairly pays the contributors to this product for the money that it's about to make.

    Marc Fleury didn't make this happen, JBoss did. JBoss is so good, that it makes sense to be paid for it now. People can either accept that and go with it, or argue that it should never be sold. But if you think that it should never be sold for money, then it will never be used.

    Pick your poison.

    ~Ted Sfikas
    Reply to this Reply to original

  180. Sorry to be so cynic,[ Go to top ]

    but I knew all along that something like this was going to happened when I understood the Jboss was not part of the Jakarta organization.

    Contrary to what my friends say, I am not a 100% deep cynic yet!

    However, if the Jakarta org ever turn commercial – then I will be.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  181. Sorry to be so cynic, you mean hypocrit[ Go to top ]

    There are a lot of companies making money reselling apache, what is your take on that. Half of the jakarta folks either work for sun or ibm, what is your take on that. Yes apache and jakarta are free and open source, but don't be blind to the fact that people are making money to work on those projects and I say more power to them. What a wonderful gig. Jboss group is not the only ones making money off of open source. Most successful projects have money involved in them one way or the other. Rolf you are a struts advocate, as can be seen from previous posts, right. Craig gets paid by sun so why aren't you criticizing him. Projects that are successful will indeed have money involved. I for one am glad Jboss is spreading the money around.


    tx

    Matt
    Reply to this Reply to original

  182. hypocrit?[ Go to top ]

    That some people are paid to work on Open Source projects is only good - for them and for everybody.

    How can you confuse that with taking control over everything and turning it into a company? That is a complete different thing.

    Nobody ownes Jakarta Org or is receiving money from Jakarta, that what's important.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  183. hypocrit?[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps you'd support that business model for Microsoft products as well?
    Steve
    Reply to this Reply to original

  184. Re: NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    David, I also agree to stop after this last clarification.

    David> People are not necessarily jerks for having opinions or for disagreeing with each other...

    That is not the reason I classify them as jerks. There are plenty of other people who have opinions and are disagreeing with each other even on this thread without being jerks. It is for other reasons, things they have revealed about themselves and their personalities, that makes them jerks. Read the way they write and what they write, compare with others, and notice the blatant disrespect and lack of courtesy they have for anything and anyone they disagree with. And I was using "jerks" to be polite because Serverside may censor me. I would have liked to say they are little donkeys with holes.

    David> OK, look at the size of other discussions involving JBoss (the J2EE licensing one, for instance).

    OK, you are right about that.

    Shankar> Fleury and Oberg's arrogance is just stupidity.
    David> At the moment JBoss is succeeding, so Marc is in the intelligent group.


    I would not call Marc successful yet and still put him in the jerks-only group and claim that JBoss is succeding despite him. But at least we both seem to agree that Rickard is in the [unsuccessful] jerks group.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  185. Re: NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    Shankar,
    If refusing to accept manipulation makes me a jerk I think there should be more jerks in the world.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  186. Re: NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    Rickard> Shankar, If refusing to accept manipulation makes me a jerk I think there should be more jerks in the world.

    Rickard, I agree completely... if refusing to accept manipulation makes you a jerk then there should be more jerks in the world.

    Unfortunately that is not what makes you a jerk. It's all your other nonsense. But then again I may be conspiring with aliens or the CIA and be out to "get you" so why take what I'm saying seriously. Good luck, get a life, and try not to waste our time. Regards.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  187. Re: NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    Rickard> Shankar, If refusing to accept manipulation makes me a jerk I think there should be more jerks in the world.

    >
    > Rickard, I agree completely... if refusing to accept manipulation makes you a jerk then there should be more jerks in the world.
    >
    > Unfortunately that is not what makes you a jerk. It's all your other nonsense. But then again I may be conspiring with aliens or the CIA and be out to "get you" so why take what I'm saying seriously. Good luck, get a life, and try not to waste our time. Regards.

    Ok, now your comments make much more sense. I'm a jerk because I say things you don't agree with. Thanks for the clarification. I suggest that you simply stop reading my blog then. Problem solved. :-)

    And, FWIW, I have never said or implied that CIA is "out to get me". But that's off-topic.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  188. Re: NOTHING WRONG WITH JBOSS LETTER![ Go to top ]

    Rickard,

    who am i to advise you ..but..

    please, don't spend your valuable time by replying to non-sense messages. say whatever you want to say but don't try to reply to every message that has your name in it. keep doing whatever you have been doing. learn, explore the world more, talk about the things that you think cool, and teach others. use your blog more often to reach outside world. keep your nerves and energy away from discussions that goes nowhere. me and people like me are very happy to know that there are people like you. genius and verbose; humble enough to care about what others think.

    -talip
    Reply to this Reply to original

  189. It is not a legal matter, it is about morality.[ Go to top ]

    John,

    The "mark as noicy" program works perfectly! Thanks to that, there is now possible to continue the real discussion.

    The question is, are Marc Fluery and his family justified in their effort to build a commercial company on an Open Source product?

    To elucidate upon this I have to digress a little. When a small group of people buds out from a big company and start a competeting product it is really a form of "stealing". That is, they could not have done it without the knowledge they had aquired while being employed by the big company, knowledge that could have cost the company a very large amount of money and efforts to aquire.

    However, in most cases they get away with it, because "who cares about a big company" and because "probaly the company have been stealing too", by hiring away key people from their competitors. That is the way of the world! (good old capitalistic practice..)

    But when somebody that have been involved in an Open Source project breaks away and start a commercial version it is a different matter. In the first case, you are taking from a company (and who cares!) but in the second case you are taking something from a group of idealistic people, it is not the same thing at all.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  190. It is not a legal matter, it is about morality.[ Go to top ]

    Using TOOL notation:
       Rolf_Tollerud.ShutUp();
       Rolf_Tollerud.CleanUp();
       Rolf_Tollerud=NIL;
       Task.Part.OperatingSystem.RecoverMemory();

    ok?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  191. It is not a legal matter, it is about morality.[ Go to top ]

    Sure, Marc Fleury is known to be a arrogant pompous jerk of questionable moral character and whatever else, but this action by JBoss Group LLC is not what makes him so. You may not "like" Marc or even the action, but the action is legitimate! I think that is what you are missing. They are not stealing from the open source idealists, and that whole discussion has already happened earlier in this thread. Are you reading or just posting?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  192. a little present[ Go to top ]

    OK, I get the point, everthing I say is going to be "marked as noicy" from now on.

    Soon the will be irrelevant though..

    Job search statistics at
    www.it.jobserve.com

    January 29
    .NET: 455
    WebLogic: 182 (40% of .NET)


    February 28
    .NET: 550
    Weblogic: 210 (38% of .NET)


    March 18
    .NET: 543
    Weblogic: 196 (36% of .NET)


    March 29
    .NET: 531
    Weblogic: 181 (34% of .NET)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  193. a little present for RULF!!![ Go to top ]

    Check this out buddy: www.dice.com

    .NET = (14 positions, all across USA, including fulltime/contract positions for the past 7 days.)
    J2EE = (3717 positions, criteria similar like the above)
    WebLogic = (425 positions, criteria similar like the above)

    I am not a fan of using this sort of comparations but if you are using such kind of argument, let's play using the same rules!!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  194. Is that so?[ Go to top ]

    Obviously, that site cannot handle search on .NET correctly.

    I did a similar search on jobsearch.monster.com and it confirms more or less the numbers on www.it.jobserve.com. It was

    .NET: 1300
    WEblogic: 536 41% of .NET

    The difference is only 7% between the American and European numbers.
    I will start with regular searches on monster.com too, so we can compare the two sites - and see the trend.

    If you are in doubt if the "hits" are real jobs - just look up 50-100 jobs and see for your self.

    BTW, a search on java last month (monster.com) resulted in over 5000 hits (they have 5000 as limit). A search on java this month shows 3693..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  195. ROLF esta loco!!!![ Go to top ]

    Buddy, using the same website you use, I got the following numbers:

    .NET = 1300
    Java = 3692
    J2EE = 1243

    Something MUST be wrong with your eyes (or something else)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  196. ROLF esta loco!!![ Go to top ]

    Anyways, browsing just a job search engine does not give us the real picture. For 1 real position we may find 10 different posting from several recruiter companies (something ussual in USA) that don't know anything about technology and are looking desperately for a fee.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  197. re:a little present for RULF!!![ Go to top ]

    Rolf knows that you can skew these figures to favor what ever you like. This is the only "evidence" he has the .Net is taking over J2EE. Here, I'll use my company as an example:

    Supervisor, App Software Development - Currently seeking an experienced software developer to supervise and assist in the development of high quality applications in support of our company’s various insurance applications using available technologies. Position requires a Bachelor's degree (or equivalent) and five years experience as a business Software Developer with 2 years in a management role. Must have strong experience with AS400, RPG and Java. Good leadership skills essential.

    Java 1
    .Net 0
    Reply to this Reply to original

  198. 3 months is not enough[ Go to top ]

    I have not suggested any "evidence" yet Steven. Only three months is not enough to be statistic significant. But, after months after months go by - perhaps even the staunchest zealot will have to admit that something is happening.

    To recapitulate:

    I herby declare solemnly that I do not have any evidence yet!

    What happens in the future is another matter. I hope it is not forbidden to make an educated guess..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Reply to this Reply to original

  199. Summary[ Go to top ]

    Summary of this thread

    FUDandJealousy


    tx

    Matt
    Reply to this Reply to original

  200. Why work so hard to twist this very positive plan?[ Go to top ]

    First of all, I am a JBoss Group employee (started in December) and I understand the skepticism concerning Marc. He does have a reputation for being a jerk, and my perception of his personality was a major concern when I was deciding weather or not to join JBG. Additionally, I was concerned that Marc might be "using" the OSS community to build his own wealth. My previous employer was very big on sharing the wealth with the employees who helped create it, and I was hopeful that JBG would be the same. Additionally, I had read many of Rickard's comments and was concerned by some of his assertions about Marc running JGB unethically (a charge he later made about TMC as well). I spoke to both Bill Burke and Marc himself about these concerns. Ultimately, after many discussions with my wife, my parents, and coworkers, I decided to join JBG full time.

    Over the past few months I've learned a lot about Marc--namely that he is actually a fairly nice guy. He is direct and perhaps a bit arrogant. However, these are qualities that the author of almost every post in this thread has gladly illustrated about himself. I know I've been accused of both before.

    When I heard about the compensation plain I did breathe a big sigh of relief. Here Marc was proving that this wasn't all about him. Here he was giving away the company to the people who helped build it. What was even more telling is that Marc went out of his way to track some people down so he could recognize their contribution to JBoss with the compensation plan.

    What I also began to recognize was that jboss.org, unlike any other open source website I've ever seen, includes the bios and pictures of the developers--both old and new, including the many unnamed individuals who may submit patches, etc. When I go to jakarta.apache.org I don't see a picture of some random developer staring at me. When I look at the list of Jakarta committers, I don't see a thank you for those who contribute a simple patch. In other words, Marc--for quite a while now--has been publicly acknowledging the contributions and intelligence of the individuals who helped build JBoss. Now, he seeks to acknowledge those contributions with a financial reward and a stake in the future of a growing company.

    But somehow, many of you have failed to notice that Marc—more then the leader of any other open source project I’m aware of—has gone out of his way to recognize the little people who helped make JBoss what it is today. And when someone points it out, instead of recognizing what it really means and praising it, you work as hard as you can to spin it in a negative light. I simply don’t understand that reaction or its underlying motivation.

    <sarcasm>
    But perhaps I’m an ignorant naive fool who can’t see the evil Marc for what he really is, or his grand conspiracy to enslave OSS developers to blindly do his bidding so he can control the world...
    </sarcasm>
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  201. I cannot take any more of this[ Go to top ]

    If I read more of this marketing I afraid that I am going to be sick. Take your customers and your money and your company and go away. And congratulate you your self for being so smart and clever!

    Bye!
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  202. Tollerude[ Go to top ]

    rude troller
    Reply to this Reply to original

  203. When did you crown yourself king?[ Go to top ]

    If I read more of this marketing I afraid that I am going to be sick. Take your customers and your money and your company and go away. And congratulate you your self for being so smart and clever!

    >
    > Bye!

    If your previous posts didn't expose you, then this one certainly does. You simply can't listen to reason, and either the truth eludes you, or you have crowned yourself king of reality and granted yourself the authority to judge the motivation of others from afar and answer to no one. Well I'm well acquainted with reality and I'm quite a fan of TRUTH, and you Rolf don't seem equipped to deal with either.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  204. 200th post[ Go to top ]

    First post!!! FP!!!!

    WOOO-HOOO!

    JBoss isn't a phenomena?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  205. Re: I cannot take any more of this[ Go to top ]

    Does it mean you wont be posting here anymore?

    What a shame :-)
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  206. Shock news.[ Go to top ]

    Today Rolf Tollerude announces that he was wrong about Java and open source.

    "I've seen the light, open source software is great. I just love EJBs too. I'm applying to join the JBoss group. And in future I shall be trawling .net newsgroups evangelising Java and open source."
    Reply to this Reply to original

  207. Shock news.[ Go to top ]

    Rolf (?): "I've seen the light, open source software is great. I just love EJBs too. I'm applying to join the JBoss group. And in future I shall be trawling .net newsgroups evangelising Java and open source."

    In that case, we're switching to "100% Pure .NET" starting immediately to take advantage of TOMORROW (Talk Of Mono, Only Really Run On Windows).

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
    Reply to this Reply to original