Microsoft trains staff on Linux and J2EE - Are we doing enough?

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News: Microsoft trains staff on Linux and J2EE - Are we doing enough?

  1. Microsoft is training around 140 of its consultants in Linux and J2EE, "in order to be better equipped when advising customers and recommending Microsoft products and technologies." .NET API engineers are similarly trained. Is the J2EE vendor community (particularly Sun) also training it's engineers/consultants on .NET to keep J2EE evolving and competitive?

    Read Microsoft trains staff on Linux and J2EE.

    Threaded Messages (54)

  2. Microsoft's .NET evangelist position requires experience in J2EE when M$ hires.
  3. And famous Rolf is one of them ?
  4. You're presuming Rolf has been trained or had work experience at some point.
  5. Someday we'll find out Rolf is some homeless guy under a bridge annoying high-tech Java geeks in between swigs of whisky. He's got a Sun Network Computer in his shopping cart to connect to us, wirelessly wardriving the open 802.11b space.

    Steve
  6. <You're presuming Rolf has been trained or had work experience at some point./>

    You're right ! That's one thing I forgot !
  7. It makes sense that they are training their developers to Java/J2EE. Hence it proof .NET is the clone of Java:-) BTW besides joke, ASP.NET presentation (CodeBehind, ServerControls etc) tier is very powerful and JSP gurus have to wake up and smell the coffee, remember MS beats rest of us on presentation tier in the past and they are doing it again.
  8. Check out Coldtags suite for example. There are more than 100 elements for your presentations
  9. <vendor>

    We do provide ASP.NET similar tags in JSP. See www.servletsuite.com/jsp.htm

    </vendor>
  10. Linux and J2EE?[ Go to top ]

    One that can read and write, - he other likes intellectual company.

    But who is who?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  11. Linux and J2EE?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    I gotta ask. Do you just say strange things to confuse people or when you get mad or something? Do you have some wierd typing form of tourette's?

    I mean, I see conversations with you go like this:

    Someone: J2EE is wonderful
    Rolf: J2EE sucks!
    Someone: Why do you say that?
    Rolf: The fire engine is RED! I told you...THE FIRE ENGINE IS RED!

    And then everyone is confused. And noone knows what to say to you. I mean, what are you saying man?!?!

    Jason
  12. Jason is confused..[ Go to top ]

    My dear Jason,

    My answers generally are at the same level as the conversation before!
    (81976, 81982 and 81990!)

    After much serious research, I have found that the one that can read and write is the Linux person!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (I think I have done my share of serious talk..)
  13. Jason is confused..[ Go to top ]

    Regards

    > Rolf Tollerud
    > (I think I have done my share of serious talk..)

    Really? I must have missed those posts.

    -Pete
  14. Jason is confused..[ Go to top ]

    Nobody is confused! If anyone was confused, it wasn't here!! The only confusion is hiding in the desert.

    There will be no confusion here, The one who is confused can only read write and will be executed. RWX!!

    And let me tell you, THERE ARE NO RED FIRE ENGINES!! The only fire engines I have seen are all burned
    down by .net. Let me assure you all, .net was not extinguished by J2EE!!

    Lord lure loft
  15. OMG - lure loft. You are either hilarious or badly in need of medication. Perhaps a little of both.

    MY FIRE ENGINE IS RED!!!!

    All I can think of is the old TV show "Get Smart" and the sign/countersign jokes...

    Sign: The migrating birds fly low over the sea.
    CS: Shadeless windows admit no light.
    Sign: The wingless dove protects its nest.
    CS: The toothless tiger rules the restless jungle.

    Sign: The blue sun melts the red snow
    CS: And the purple water runs uphill

    And of course...

    Sign: Is the wind fair to Java?
    CS: All clear, no storm on the horizon

    Now if I could just remember which CONTROL agent always used to get the plumb assignments, like hiding out in garbage cans. And who hasn't been in a conference room and wanted to insist we use The Cone Of Silence?

    But I digress...
  16. ...this just in: in case any of you were wondering which spy team (KAOS or CONTROL) represents which technology camp (J2EE or .Net)...

    http://www.wouldyoubelieve.com/kaos.html

    'nuff said.
  17. Rolf,

    >
    > I gotta ask. Do you just say strange things to confuse people or when you get mad or something? Do you have some wierd typing form of tourette's?
    >
    > I mean, I see conversations with you go like this:
    >
    > Someone: J2EE is wonderful
    > Rolf: J2EE sucks!
    > Someone: Why do you say that?
    > Rolf: The fire engine is RED! I told you...THE FIRE ENGINE IS RED!
    >
    > And then everyone is confused. And noone knows what to say to you. I mean, what are you saying man?!?!
    >
    > Jason


    Jason the Fire Engines are Yellow and Green form where I come from!
  18. Microsoft's .NET evangelist position requires experience in J2EE when M$ hires.


    Not true. Only a few positions, in fact, _require_ deep knowledge and experience in Java/J2EE.

    David Weller
    .NET Technical Evangelist, Java/J2EE Community
  19. cant resist[ Go to top ]

    yeah, its a 15 min. course:
    -start wizard
    -click (for 1 degree of separation and all)
    -deploy app
    ...
    -Buy 6000000000000000 servers and 9000000000000000 software lxixcxexnxsxexs ANNUAL SUBSCRIPTIONS from Microsoft at $99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999.99 dollars a year to support 25 users.
    - outsource all wizard clicking to India after marketing designs the apps in POWERPOINT.NET
    -marketing & finance never realize India just just deploys the powerpoint.ppt.net.
  20. never gets old[ Go to top ]

    "Therefore, I say: Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are sure to be defeated in every battle."

    http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/thigpen/html/art_of_war.html
  21. Fruit basket on its way[ Go to top ]

    After class they will join Javalobby and "dump on" dotnet just like the hordes of other xmicrosoft programmers.

    Let's welcome them with open arms. They have been suffering all these years. let's send them a fruit basket.
  22. Sun should be, but I doubt it[ Go to top ]

    Sun should be but I doubt it since Java is not a big money maker for them. They probably spend more time studying HP or EMC than they do Microsoft. I think BEA or IBM probably spends more time studying .NET than does Sun. Sun never seems to take Microsoft very seriously, always very smug about dealing with the Microsoft "pest".

    As far as ASP.NET, I find J2EE is still better, particularly when you consider Struts and the other presentation frameworks (WebMacro, Velocity, etc.) that is available out there. It's flexibility and openness is its strength. I often find ASP.NET web-forms too constraining for complex apps, and you have to dig down deep into the event models of ASP.NET to do anything less than standard. But they make writing simple web apps a snap.
  23. We should all learn .net[ Go to top ]

    I think anyone advising a client on platform choice should have a good working knowledge of .net and what’s wrong with it (plenty is) – having done some work on this I feel I can now explain to a client why I think they should use J2EE without having to resort to the old “.net is by Microsoft and therefore is evil be definition” gambit.
  24. We should all learn .net[ Go to top ]

    I actually did order a .NET book and intend to read it and go though the examples. Why am I doing it? No, I'm not planning to switch to .NET, no way. I do believe in the continuing success of J2EE across the enterprise. As mentioned, knowing thy enemy is key.

    What I would like to point out however is that
    - The MS consultants will only know about J2EE after their training
    - I will only know about .NET after reading the book
    What it takes is working knowledge and that's a bit more difficult to gain...
  25. We should all learn .net[ Go to top ]

    I actually did order a .NET book and intend to read it and go though the examples. Why am I doing it? No, I'm not planning to switch to .NET, no way. I do believe in the continuing success of J2EE across the enterprise. As mentioned, knowing thy enemy is key.



    Enemy?! Holy crap people! It's a technology, not a disease! one of many to arise over the years I've been a programmer. It has it's plusses and minuses just like every other technology, J2EE included. Anyone who equates a technology as their "enemy" is doing a disservice to themselves, their clients and programming as a craft. You pick the best solution for the situation, not necessarily the one that you are most comfortable with. If you program well in one language you should be able to program well in any language, if you can design an elegant solution with one platform you should be able to do it with the other, given the need. Except of course VB 6, but there's an exception to every rule....
  26. We should all learn .net[ Go to top ]

    <Mac>
    Enemy?! Holy crap people! It's a technology, not a disease!
    </Mac>

    The subject of this thread is Microsoft training its consultants on J2EE and Linux. Windows competes with Linux. .NET competes with J2EE. Presumably, they are learing these technologies so they can intelligently recommend their technologies over their competitor's. "Know the enemy" makes perfect sense in this context.

    Ryan
  27. Windows competes with Linux. .NET competes with J2EE.


    Wrong. .NET competes with Linux.
  28. Konstantin,

    Sorry, but it is you that are very wrong. The Mono project will ensure that Linux keeps a competitive edge, at the cost of Java. .NET is very important to Linux, as Ximian do realize.

    You will see..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  29. Nice title, Rolf. I thought I would one-up you.

    Rolf: The Mono project will ensure that Linux keeps a competitive edge, at the cost of Java. .NET is very important to Linux, as Ximian do realize.

    No, .NET is very important to Ximian, as we all do realize. ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  30. Bill Gates to wed Richard Stallman[ Go to top ]

    Nice title, Rolf. I thought I would one-up you.

    >
    > Rolf: The Mono project will ensure that Linux keeps a competitive edge, at the cost of Java. .NET is very important to Linux, as Ximian do realize.
    >
    > No, .NET is very important to Ximian, as we all do realize. ;-)
    >
    > Peace,


    How about ".Net [being only viable on Windows] is very important to Microsoft, as we all do realize."
  31. "I now inform you that you are too far from reality."
  32. Sorry, but it is you that are very wrong. The Mono project will ensure that Linux keeps a competitive edge, at the cost of Java. .NET is very important to Linux, as Ximian do realize.

    >
    This is a general perception of .NET competing with J2EE. Reality is that MS is trying to come up with new operation system/portability layer. Pretty much like POSIX.
    Linux provides alternative set of APIs to code against them. (As every OS does).
    CLR’s ability to execute pretty much everything makes it full OS and I have impression that MS is trying to repeat the same trick as it did before with Win atop of DOS…..
  33. Konstantin,

    "CLR’s ability to execute pretty much everything makes it full OS and I have impression that MS is trying to repeat the same trick as it did before with Win atop of DOS….."

    Now you are quite right. Dead on target.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  34. We should all learn .net[ Go to top ]

    Enemy?! Holy crap people! It's a technology, not a disease!

    At ease Mac... "Knowing thy enemy" is a well-known saying (although I can't remember who said it first). I wasn't trying to imply that we should consider a technology, .NET, an enemy as in "kill that son of a b*". That was bad wording on my behalf -- what I tried to say was that unless you know what the other, alternative/competing technologies have to provide, you'll only have half the information available to make those best-tool-for-the-task decisions.
  35. We should all learn .net[ Go to top ]

    ...what the other, alternative/competing technologies have to provide, you'll only have half the information available to make those best-tool-for-the-task decisions.

    Sorry, forgot to add:
    ...and best practices, patterns, etc. are often cross-platform. There's always the chance that, for example, .NET has implemented some nice framework which would be useful in your J2EE application--If you know it's there, you can "port" it to your application (unless MS has something to say about copyright:)...
  36. Embarrassing confession[ Go to top ]

    You’re right, of course. I hate to admit it but I’m actually working on a .net project at the moment (sorry) and I’m learning to appreciate how good J2EE actually is. There are so many problems with the way the framework handles exceptions, for instance, that we can’t actually use structured error handling in the way that we would like (and MS’s own guidelines suggest that we should). For example many FCL exception types are missing a constructor that allows an inner exception to be set so you can’t catch an exception and pass a new exception plus the original back up to the caller (a case of Microsoft ignoring its own guidelines). Better still, many FCL methods don’t actually let you identify the problem: For example system.io.file and system.io.directory types have static Exists methods. Both methods return true or false depending on whether the argument identifies a directory/file exits on the disk. If anything goes wrong the methods catch the exception and return false to the caller. So does the file not exist, do I have a permissions problem, has a stack overflow or out of memory exception occurred? No idea (I mean why would I care). The best though: System.windows.forms.datagird is a control (a bit like jtable) that has a currentcell property. If your code tries to set the value in the current cell and an exception is thrown, the DataGrid catches the exception and displays a messagebox for goodness sake. There is no way to avoid this so not only can you not catch the exception you also get a messagebox displayed to your user you have no control over.
  37. Microsoft Training HERE...[ Go to top ]

    Course: How to deploy a web service and insert into Microsoft UDDI

    {Screen: Agreement}
    Read the agreement. Do you Agree ?
    [Yes] [No]

    {Screen: Select web service}
    Deploy now your web service. Select one from the list
    [Next] [Finish] [Cancel]

    {Screen: UDDI data}
    Please provide a description of your web service
    <Company name> <Contact> <Description>
    [Finish] [Cancel]

    {Screen: Congratulations}
    Your web service is deployed. Call your customers to earn money.
    [Finish]

    -----------------
    Now serious...

    This is the only way to victory: easy development and administration.

    Microsoft does it very well.

    PS: the above course is just a sample
  38. ...if you think you can build an enterprise system the traditional M$ way...you will fail. There are too many things to consider and J2EE addresses them in a very organized manner with industry best practices. I always hear the complaint that J2EE is hard from those who have not actually built an Enterprise system. I am an Architect and all other architects that I have worked with agree the J2EE specification is the best out there. There must be a reason why enterprise systems are always deployed on Unix and now Linux platforms. Agreed M$ is changing its ways with .Net but there are always those M$ binding that make you keep paying them rent for the rest of your life....did you know that building applications using C# in any environment other than M$ Visual Studio is a pain in the behind? Some might argue that it is smart business practice but at some point in time a developer like me who is working on both platforms stops and thinks about the real issue. Why cannot M$ make it easy for the community by helping other companies to build on top of .Net. They claim they do but have you tried the Improv C# plugin for Eclipse? it is a joke! So the bottom line is M$ does not give a damn if you as a developer are build good reliable software...they give you a demo with bells and whistles but when the rubber meets the road it just does not pan well.
  39. <!--I always hear the complaint that J2EE is hard from those who have not actually built an Enterprise system. I am an Architect and all other architects that I have worked with agree the J2EE specification is the best out there.-->

    I agree 100%, when it comes to specification J2EE is more explicit and easy to understand,while in MS world things are just wrapped up in tools and that is what I don't like about them (no clear specification).

    <!-- did you know that building applications using C# in any environment other than M$ Visual Studio is a pain in the behind? -->

    Disagree 100%, we are personally using the .NET SDK with ultradedit editor (using to right code behind C# files), WebMatrix (completly free tool from ASP.NET community) and wola.... No need for VisualStudio.NET. I agree when you have to design WindowsForms it is much faster if you use VisualStudio.NET. But again it is true with Java too. You can open a notepad and start coding swing applcations, but for faster development you need advance IDEs. So what is the difference?
  40. Microsoft Training HERE...[ Go to top ]

    |
    |Disagree 100%, we are personally using the .NET SDK with ultradedit editor
    |

    I think you have to look very closely at the productivity cost of using just a text editor compared to 2nd generation IDE's of the likes of IntelliJ or Eclipse.
    In my mind, anyone still using pure text editors for java development need re-think their reasons for doing so.

    As for visual development tools (WebForms and Swing designers) these tools are not really valuable for development of production applications of any complexity. Once you reach the limitations of the click & drag wizard usage, your about 5% into your application. The rest of the application involves writing and refactoring code.

    On this score, VS.net is quite aways behind. It provides a very low barrier of entry (wizard-simplifaction), but for the rest of your project work, it lacks the refactoring support, continual on-the-fly compilation, and an intelligent internal code model, that would make it really productive. Microsoft are not completely asleep on this - they have caught on. When product catches up with marketing is another thing.

    -Nick
  41. marketing?[ Go to top ]

    When product catches up with marketing is another thing

    Do you mean: 8 times faster, 4 times more maintainable, and 2 times more productive?

    That is no marketing Nick, but today’s reality..

    Using NET SDK with a good text editor..(no need for VisualStudio) is a more viable option that with Java because of the excellent stand-alone debugger, and is a good way to cut out all “fluff” in your application. As usual, most developer time is spent with the presentation layer (as in all non-trivial applications). And it is here the competition fails, as so many times before.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  42. marketing?[ Go to top ]

    As usual, most developer time is spent with the presentation layer (as in all non-trivial applications). And it is here the competition fails, as so many times before.

    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    Your kidding, right? If not, it sounds like you have ONLY worked on trivial applications.

    -Pete
  43. marketing?[ Go to top ]

    As usual, most developer time is spent with the presentation layer (as in all non-trivial applications). And it is here the competition fails, as so many times before.

    > >
    > > Regards
    > > Rolf Tollerud
    >
    > Your kidding, right? If not, it sounds like you have ONLY worked on trivial applications.
    >
    > -Pete

    Given he is a M$ guy, Rolf's statement is not a surprise.
  44. Linux + .NET = True[ Go to top ]

    Pete,

    " Your kidding, right? If not, it sounds like you have ONLY worked on trivial applications. "

    Your attitude is very representative for the Unix/Linux crowd. "The user is an idiot". I give you this advice (I know you don't want but I give it anyway):

    Cater more to the user and especially to the "power-user" and everything will go better for you.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  45. Linux + .NET = True[ Go to top ]

    Cater more to the user and especially to the "power-user" and everything will go better for you.


    and how power-user is related to GUI??? A guys who uses EXCEL and is a power-user is more interested in having VBA working and integrated properly than in using just a good-looking interface.

    Of course, great software needs a good-looking interface in order to sell (sometimes it is not even necesary). But having just the GUI does not make a product great.

    BTW, Power-user is a term that has a meaning in a desktop context when working with generic-purpose applications (like MS Office suite), which is OK and desirable to have (up to an extend).

    and by the way, to debug a GUI is not much difficult than to debug any other piece of software. Personally I have found that middleware and back-end components (that are the ones that implement business logic and do the real processing) are even harder to debug than a GUI. If you use some concepts from deterministic machines, you will find it easy to properly debug a GUI.

    But since you seem to re-eject anything that seems close to any kind of human science (specially knowledge from Computer Science), You may find harder to debug a GUI. And you do. :-)
  46. "the user is the king"[ Go to top ]

    Roberto,

    Well I understand that I as the Windows guy have to educate you as the Unix guy about user GUI ;-).

    Here are some suggestions,

    Generic, "query by example" page that should be able to search an "anything".

    Powerful report generator to design your own reports, even in formats like text, pdf etc..

    Possibility to add user-defined fields to the page.

    A number of Web Services (info from legacy systems, whatever) that can be attached to your user-defined fields.

    Print-friendly pages

    Avoid total rewrite of the page with small changes

    Possibility to save important pages "off-line", etc etc

    If you want an example, go to http://salesforce.com and sign up for a Free 30-Day Test Drive. They do not have all my suggestions (maybe only 10%) but it will do for a start..

    Please do not answer at once, but after 3 months or so..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  47. marketing?[ Go to top ]

    <!-- Using NET SDK with a good text editor..(no need for VisualStudio) is a more viable option that with Java because of the excellent stand-alone debugger, and is a good way to cut out all “fluff” in your application.-->

    100% agree. Besides that WebMatrix (completly free) + stadalone GUI debugger (comes with .NET SDK) together become a powerful IDE in itself, as far as web development goes.

    <!-- As for visual development tools (WebForms and Swing designers) these tools are not really valuable for development of production applications of any complexity.-->

    This is may be true with Java IDEs but when it comes to developing Windows application using MS technolgy it is not true. How can you deny the one of the most successful product from MS (VB).

    <!-- As usual, most developer time is spent with the presentation layer (as in all non-trivial applications). And it is here the competition fails, as so many times before. -->

    Again agree 100%, BTW I don't work for M$:-) Lot of time people forget that when you talk about a complex enterprise level application it is not just consist of only one layer but many. And presentation layer is one of them, that is where M$ is again killing Java and "I emphasize" again killing Java. And as usual people in Javaworld (BTW I am one of them, participated officially in JCP) think it's just the M$ IDE that is what people are talking about. Wake up guys, WebForms, Server controls and Code behind has nothing to do with an IDE, these are the parts of M$ presentaion tier framework a.k.a ASP.NET. Compare them colsely to JSP (apple to apple) you will realize how far is Java in these area. Hope JSF will catch most of them (haven't look closely into it yet..)

    BTW when it comes to middleware and data tier I am with J2EE, it's much more mature than .NET world.
  48. marketing?[ Go to top ]

    |
    |Do you mean: 8 times faster, 4 times more maintainable, and 2 times more
    |productive?
    |

    No, I was referring to something a little more tangible - Visual Studio.net.

    By todays standards, its a crap IDE. There is no refactoring support, no intelligent code help - compared to the likes of Eclipse and IntelliJ, its at least 1.5 yrs to 2 years behind.

    |
    |That is no marketing Nick, but today?s reality..
    |

    Ahh. Yes. To marketeers, all marketing is reality.

    |
    |Using NET SDK with a good text editor..(no need for VisualStudio) is a more
    |viable option that with Java because of the excellent stand-alone debugger, and
    |is a good way to cut out all ?fluff? in your application.
    |

    I am not sure what you are saying:
    Possibility 1) You are saying that the .net sdk (on its own) is better than the java sdk (on its own):
    Probably. I would hope so. Who cares?

    Possibility 2) You are saying that the .net sdk (on its own) is better than Eclipse or IntelliJ:
    Now, you are talking complete rubbish.

    |
    |As usual, most developer time is spent with the presentation layer (as in all
    |non-trivial applications). And it is here the competition fails, as so many
    |times before.
    |

    Errr, I am not sure what your "non-trivial" experience is...
    I see most time spent writing and maintaining code - not working with visual design tools. Whether that time is spent on the presentation tier is rather immaterial (it depends entirely on the application). Some simple applications are very suited to VB Forms style development. Many are not.

    -Nick
  49. Course: How to deploy a web service and insert into Microsoft UDDI

    >
    > {Screen: Agreement}
    > Read the agreement. Do you Agree ?
    > [Yes] [No]
    >
    > {Screen: Select web service}
    > Deploy now your web service. Select one from the list
    > [Next] [Finish] [Cancel]
    >
    > {Screen: UDDI data}
    > Please provide a description of your web service
    > <Company name> <Contact> <Description>
    > [Finish] [Cancel]
    >
    > {Screen: Congratulations}
    > Your web service is deployed. Call your customers to earn money.
    > [Finish]
    >
    > -----------------

    Company using above service (and getting 0 customers): dOOOh didn't realize that the "webservice" buzzword is dead - why, oh why did we trust that sales person talking big and showing us the moon and the stars ;)
  50. Embarrassing confession[ Go to top ]

    Charles... good post. Thanks. I hope you can share more of your experiences on the .Net platform here so that people can actually use this knowledge and stop this trivial arguments and focus on real design differences and pitfalls.
  51. Not really embarrasing at all[ Go to top ]

    Not to be too picky, but all you've done is just listed the examples Jeffrey Richter presents in his book 'Applied .NET Framework Programming' (Chapter 18). You should probably credit your source.

    Which is worse:
    a small number of exception subclasses that forget to define an constructor that accepts an innerException, or a top level Exception class that does not support the concept of an inner exception at all? (Yes I know thats not true post 1.4, but it was the case for long time)

    I hardly think that the bugs you mention prevent you from adopting the MS guidelines. Given that Richter worked on developing the framework, I would imagine that MS is very aware of these bugs...

    Both J2EE and .NET are extremely capable, and I regularly program in both (though more so .NET lately). I think J2EEs advantage is breadth of supported APIs, due to its maturity. I think .NETs advantage is that it benefits from some lessons learned in the Java world and takes the opportunity to clean things up a bit. Both have shortcomings, but you can do an awful lot fairly easily on either one.

    It doesnt make much sense to me that one would 'hate to admit' using one or the other.

    -John
  52. Off Topic but about training[ Go to top ]

    Hmm any chance of streaming video that doesn't make me support MS coffers
  53. Know your enemy. Way to go Microsoft. I assume even IBM and BEA would be doing the same. That is business and competition.
  54. Absolutely right. Unfortunately I gained the impression that someone from the J2EE camp that does know the enemy and openly admits that the enemy's offering is not too shabby either, has a hard time in this forum.
  55. So Microsoft have finally seen the light then :)