Overview: Java Vendors Look To Add Jolt To Tech

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News: Overview: Java Vendors Look To Add Jolt To Tech

  1. JavaOne is on the horizon, and vendors are getting their stories straight. IBM is even holding it's own Integration Day on June 10th. Items that are being pushed: New JCP process, J2EE 1.4 needs WS-I, Web Services need to be easier to work with, common IDE API, JavaServer Faces, and more.

    Read an overview of the current topics:

    http://idevnews.com/IntegrationNews.asp?ID=68

    Are these the right priorities?

    Threaded Messages (22)

  2. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    JSR 198 is DOA in its current form, because it is not interoperable with Eclipse.

    Eclipse is the most popular IDE, and has the most vibrant plug-in development community, and getting an incompatible JSR passed isn't going to change that.
  3. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    +1. Eclipse! And more choices and competition.

    Also, Java Server Faces JCP is likey to lead clients away from J2EE.
    Key word is it is "pushed" like EJBs were.
    JSF is designed to work for non html and no http eviroments, and is appears as a heavy framework, that might have run time fees (like EJB; thanks JCP).

    Current best practice is to use a lot of JavaScript. Ex: Tree tag, calendar tag.
    Also, using Flash Fire Fly Forms (they have a nice calendar component, data grid, etc.)

    My "problem" with JSF is that after it is "pushed" on unsuspecting corporate developers and they find issues with it, the might say Java sux (not JSF sux) and thus lead clients to WebForms (away from J2EE). For your own opinion on JSF, read the spec, remove the hype ("Ex: there will be IDE and lots of components" - sales talk, read about how big it is to do simple things)

    So re JSF, my 2 cents is, either stay with .js or look at OpenSWF (aka Flash, I have a sample Struts/Flash source runing at http://basicPortal.sf.net).

    .V
  4. Is peer superiority a priority?[ Go to top ]

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    I apologize for the length. I've had too much diet mountain dew :)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    Why is it necessary that any IDE (Eclipse in this case) be thought superior to another and any attempt to standardize an extension interface be translated into an effort to undermine the IDE in question?

    I've noticed this trend with other things: Hibernate vs iBatis vs EJB vs TopLink, and JBoss vs. Everyone else. It just doesn't seem to be enough to choose something that meets one's needs and be satisfied. Everyone has to AGREE with you and pet you for making the choice.

    I am the sole java developer for my company. I make choices based on what will be maintainable by the organization, what our hardware will support, and what I can learn the fastest. I have used Netbeans, Eclipse, and Idea. For POJO development eclipse was a dream. Once I started doing web apps though things got hairy. Do I install Lomboz or Easy Struts? Do they work with this Milestone build? Can I extend the IDE easily without SWT? If you look around at the plug-ins many of them appear to be "in development" and at version .3 or alpha. So to make a web app I have to make an ant build script that will compile my JSPs, generate my descriptors from Xdoclet , move this XML file here, WAR this, and unJAR that. Now what happens if I ever leave or go on vacation? Am I going to write a treatise on the way I got Eclipse to compile our applications? How much of my time will have to be spent tracking down plug-ins, and making sure they are compatible? When will I know that updates are available?

    Idea was a bit better, but I never really got used to its project model and to be honest I like using free software. I found making webapps to be a bit cumbersome. I spent very little time with it and it never clicked for me. It has no bearing on its value as a product and is only my perception.

    Netbeans blew me away when I mounted the blank Struts webapp file structure and it recognized as a web project, automatically added the /WEB-INF/lib contents as part of the class path and recognized the WEB-INF/classes directory as where my java files would be. I was up and running in very little time. It compiled my JSPs, had code completion for tags, and highlighted errors and I could debug with the integrated tomcat. Release 3.5 also starts faster than Eclipse for me.

    I was, however, unimpressed with the swing metal interface. I downloaded some pluggable look-and-feels (the plastic from jgoodies - http://www.jgoodies.com/ - is excellent, and the people who made it should be given a medal). I now have an IDE that I find pleasurable to use and does most of what I want without having to install plug-ins. When I do install plug-ins though I do it through the IDE: it presents them, I choose them and they are downloaded with digital signatures for verification. It’s a really nice process. I can also edit XML documents, build SWING GUIs, and all kinds of things that Eclipse requires external plug-ins for or just plain does not do.

    A lot of the speed issues have been addressed in current Netbeans Builds. The 3.5 is what I use and I love it.

    I recognize that others feel differently. They have different needs, desires, biases, etc. They would like to use Eclipse or Idea. Wouldn’t it be great if we could all use say, the same Hibernate or iBatis plug-in? Have you seen the jalopy distribution page: http://jalopy.sourceforge.net/download.html ? They have plug-ins for 6 different IDEs. That’s what the JSR is about. It’s a terrible burden for an open source or commercial project to bear. Some people (the noble and rare) care about technologically enabling as many people as possible and that’s also what the standard is about. I just happen to be extremely lazy which intersects nicely with the burdened and the noble in this case.

    IBM chose to separate from everyone when they built SWT and Eclipse. They made a decision that worked for them and it works for a lot of other people too. Being outraged, however, that a standard that allows plug-ins to work on Swing based IDEs does not do the same for SWT is like being outraged that no one makes tires for the square wheels you had custom made for your car (Before anyone takes that as a flame I am not implying that Eclipse is functionally equivalent to a square wheel).

    What I am saying is that everything involves tradeoffs. When you go with Eclipse and SWT you trade interoperability with standard Java frameworks for what you may see as speed, elegance, and convenience. It is not then the duty of those who chose interoperability and interface standardization to accommodate you. I think the fact that they are TRYING points to them to be willing to walk further across the divide you created than you are.

    It seems that this is going to result in someone writing an adaptor layer that allows plug-ins to work in both. We will then have resources devoted to adaptors, resources devoted to SWT development, and resources devoted to developing Swing. If the java community keeps splitting its pipelines there will only be a trickle coming out of each of them.
  5. Is peer superiority a priority?[ Go to top ]

    Amir,

    Excellent post! Keep on drinking that mountain dew!

    Carlos
  6. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    Vic,

    The basicportal site mentions "open source implementation of Flash ActionScript forms" can you expound on this a little more?

    Thanks,

    Carlos
  7. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    JSF is designed to work for non html and no http eviroments


    Sorry, but what does it mean "no http" ?

    Dmitry Namiot
    Coldbeans
  8. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    JSF is designed to work for non html and no http eviroments

    >
    > Sorry, but what does it mean "no http" ?
    >
    > Dmitry Namiot


    Read the JSF spec. It says it can work on non http protocol, etc.
    Some might see this as a plus.
    .V
  9. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    But any servlet can do that (in theory). Why do you think it
    is JSF only feature?

    Marina Prikaschikova
    Coldbeans
  10. JSF[ Go to top ]

    I read the JSF spec. A new JSF spec came out today, and...
    Just read it yourself and form your opinion.
    .V
  11. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    JSR 198 is DOA in its current form, because it is not interoperable with Eclipse.

    Oh really? I am on the expert group and we are doing all we can to make sure Eclipse is adequately supported. We realize it is a popular IDE even if it puts us into a difficult position regarding supported standards. Furthermore, only a portion of the proposed API should touch upon GUI-specific classes. Perhaps what you are really saying here is that you do not like the idea of a vendor-independent extension mechanism for IDEs??? If that is the case, then I guess our conversation is over. Please don't waste our time with rumor and inuendo.

    Eclipse is the most popular IDE, and has the most vibrant plug-in development community, and getting an incompatible JSR passed isn't going to change that.

    Although Eclipse is certainly a popular IDE, what is the foundation for this claim? Perhaps you should qualify your assertion as opinion, because that is really what it is.
  12. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    Anecdotal evidence on mail lists (such as Struts) and the few clients I visit with indicates that Eclipse is very popular.
    Also Eclipse has a large Java Community. (no need for JCP)

    So far we have been doing OK, we do not have to state "JSR 198" compliant. Some of the JCP's have had licensing issues, licensing it back to the Java Community. What makes it a JSR - JCP compliant?

    Open Source Java Commnity tends to pick a winner via open competition, whilst JCP has in the past been helpfull to Sun's short term interest, and ignored Java Community at large.

    .V

    ps: WAG (wild as guess, you work for Sun based on your attitude?)wag 2: You like NetBeans?, which *was* a good Open Source project, untill Sun took it over, and then people I know decided to change to something else. My clients went Eclipse and then I had to give up NetBeans.
  13. NetBeans[ Go to top ]

    Vic: .. NetBeans?, which *was* a good Open Source project, untill Sun took it over, and then people I know decided to change to something else.

    Just a clarification: NetBeans was a closed source commercial entity until Sun bought it and made the NetBeans IDE into an open source project.

    (I'm not going to postulate the net technical result of Sun's involvement, but it seems obvious that it would *NOT* have been open source without Sun's purchase of it.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  14. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    Anecdotal evidence on mail lists (such as Struts) and the few clients I visit with indicates that Eclipse is very popular. Also Eclipse has a large Java Community. (no need for JCP)

    Sure. So does Netbeans and some commercial IDEs (like IDEA). The Java world has many good IDEs, but as a provider of plugins/extensions, there is no common API to code to. This makes our life very difficult.

    So far we have been doing OK, we do not have to state "JSR 198" compliant. Some of the JCP's have had licensing issues, licensing it back to the Java Community. What makes it a JSR - JCP compliant?

    I understand you have issues with the JCP.

    Open Source Java Commnity tends to pick a winner via open competition, whilst JCP has in the past been helpfull to Sun's short term interest, and ignored Java Community at large.

    Actually, I think the JCP has given us some very good things. I agree that there are problems, but I don't think there is some large conspiracy here. The open source community has not chosen a winner in the IDE space (and some commercial ones are alive and well), and I'm not sure if it ever will. I don't really care as a developer, as long as there is one out there I really like.

    ps: WAG (wild as guess, you work for Sun based on your attitude?)wag 2: You like NetBeans?, which *was* a good Open Source project, untill Sun took it over, and then people I know decided to change to something else. My clients went Eclipse and then I had to give up NetBeans.

    Nope. I do not work for Sun. I am one of those extension providers that did not like the open source fork that Eclipse created. On the other hand, I do think Eclipse has great potential and I would like to see it succeed. However, I now have yet another IDE to support that does not support Swing. You must realize that this is a problem, and it would be nice to find a solution. Otherwise, extension authors will have to play favorites. Then you must hope that your favorite IDE is the most popular; otherwise, you won't have access to some very useful extensions.

    I suppose these religious debates must amuse some folks, but I think they are utterly useless. Instead of puffing out our chests, can we try to find some common ground? It's too bad that IBM and Sun couldn't work this SWT vs. AWT/Swing thing out before it became such a big problem.
  15. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    Corby, my response was to Bill and it made more sense in that context.

    I tend to agree with you Corby.

    .V
  16. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps what you are really saying here is that you do not

    > like the idea of a vendor-independent extension mechanism for IDEs???

    Now who'
  17. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps what you are really saying here is that you do not

    > like the idea of a vendor-independent extension mechanism for IDEs???

    Now who's jumping to conclusions? My favorite IDE, by far, is IntelliJ IDEA, and I have tremendous interest in a vendor-independent extension mechanism. I want to be able to use all those kick-butt Eclipse Plugins!

    > Although Eclipse is certainly a popular IDE, what is the foundation for this > claim? Perhaps you should qualify your assertion as opinion

    Yup, that's my opinion.

    > I am on the expert group and we are doing all we can to make sure
    > Eclipse is adequately supported.

    Awesome. You missed your March 15th date for a working draft, so perhaps you realized you needed to significantly rework your proposal in order to support the Eclipse environment.

    A JSR that promotes true interoperability between IDE's would be a tremendous gift to the community. A JSR that simply attempts to punish IBM for using SWT would be a waste of our time.
  18. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    "Now who's jumping to conclusions? My favorite IDE, by far, is IntelliJ IDEA
  19. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    "Now who's jumping to conclusions? My favorite IDE, by far, is IntelliJ IDEA, and I have tremendous interest in a vendor-independent extension mechanism. I want to be able to use all those kick-butt Eclipse Plugins!"

    Easy fella! I did not intend to cast dispersions on IDEA. Actually, I think it is a far more intuitive IDE than Eclipse. As an extension provider, I hope to see a common API one day. Perhaps I am dreaming. Otherwise, I guess I'll have to start playing some favorites...

    Awesome. You missed your March 15th date for a working draft, so perhaps you realized you needed to significantly rework your proposal in order to support the Eclipse environment.

    As far as I know, it has never been our intention to exclude Eclipse. When working with groups of very busy people, schedules tend to lag. That's life.

    A JSR that promotes true interoperability between IDE's would be a tremendous gift to the community. A JSR that simply attempts to punish IBM for using SWT would be a waste of our time.

    Well said - I agree. My only question, though, is this: Will the Eclipse folks still reject it?
  20. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    " Everyone has to AGREE with you and pet you for making the choice. " great point.
    I now agree with you. If somone wants to do something .... let them.

    This thread strted on JavaOne and is now a IDE war.
    If we can get back to the thread.
    .V
  21. Eclipse vs JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    Eclipse Consortium Members:
    Borland, IBM, MERANT, QNX Software Systems, Red Hat, SuSE, Serena, Sybase, Fujitsu, Hitachi, Instantiations, MontaVista, Scapa Technologies, Telelogic, Trans-Enterprise Integration, ETRI, HP, MKS, SlickEdit, Oracle, AltoWeb, Catalyst Systems, Flashline, Parasoft, SAP, teamstudio, TimeSys, OMG, Fraunhofer Institute, Ericsson, LogicLibrary, M7 Corpororation, QA Systems, SilverMark, Inc, Advanced Systems Concepts, Genuitec and INNOOPRACT Informationssysteme GmbH.

    JSR 198 Expert Group:
    Oracle, BEA Systems, Borland Software Corporation, Dearle, Fergal, IBM, IOPSIS Software Inc., JetBrains s.r.o., Lawson Software, Motorola, Pramati Technologies, SAP AG, Ted Stockwell, Sun Microsystems Inc., Tmax Soft Inc., William Willis, Zero G Software

    Overlap:
    Borland, IBM, Oracle, SAP

    With four groups straddling both worlds, plus other vested interests in not ignoring Eclipse, I imagine they'll come to some sort of working arrangement.
  22. JSR 198[ Go to top ]

    As somebody who thinks highly of both of my main IDE environments, I would challenge that. My current favorite IDE's are:

    1. IDEA (IntelliJ), a great tool with nice refactoring capabilities, code reviewing, etc..
    2. VI (VIM), a great editor for just typing in code quickly and easily

    If we could stop the perpetual "my thing has to be better than your thing" argument we might accomplish more. For example, let me rework some of your complaint and rant into:

    "I believe that JSR 198 is not interoperable with Eclipse, though I do not have first hand knowledge of that. I prefer Eclipse as my IDE, but I recognise that many other IDE products exist that may suit other's needs just as effectively. I would like to recommend that higher level IDE vendors work towards a plug-in standard, or in the absense of that, perhaps a plugin abstraction layer could be built, to allow say, IDEA plugins to work in Eclipse and vice versa. Then we could have a combined plugin community with a de-facto standard that the JCP/JSR process could use as a base."

    There.. glad I could help.
  23. JCP, Open Source, Anything...[ Go to top ]

    is influenced by ppl involved in developing it. Those ppl represent interests of groups that sent them there. Ergo, one of most effective ways to influence the JCP is to get involved. If the reason to get involved is strong enough, I say: You will find a way in.

    Thanks
    Alex Krut
    MVC : New Way to program controller
    http://www.velare.com/cgi/alexkrut-blosxom.cgi