Commercial JBoss Group Forks

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News: Commercial JBoss Group Forks

  1. Commercial JBoss Group Forks (64 messages)

    This morning a host of the JBoss Core Developers announced their separation from The JBoss Group LLC. They have come together with James Strachan from the Apache project and formed Core Developers Network, a training and professional services company geared around open source enterprise development.

    Check out coredevelopers.net (core developers network homepage).

    The JBoss Group forks (the inquirer).

    Threaded Messages (64)

  2. The key thing to keep in mind about this news is that this is a new commercial venture, this is not a split of the project or technology. As the article states, there is more than meets the eye here.

    If I could dare to speculate, I'd guess this new initiative is a result of disagreements on profit sharing...

    Floyd
  3. Money Aloud. why not?
  4. Commercial JBoss Group Forks[ Go to top ]

    <quote from coredevelopers.net>
    Unfortunately, the forums on jboss.org are a commercial venue for the JBoss Group LLC, and therefore we will not be participating in them.

    A few of our partners have offered support through the JBoss Group LLC in the past, but for various reasons have concluded that their professional aspirations would be better served outside of the JBoss Group LLC.
    </quote from coredevelopers.net>

    Aha! Me thinks this smacks of dissatisfaction with the JBoss Group on the part of some people. Of course, I can't think of one single reason why anybody would harbor such mutinous notions. 8-)

    How bad is this for The JBoss Group? As the Inquirer article recorded,

    <The Inquirer>
    Today's exodus hit them hard. The JBoss Group's web site indicates a mere eight consultants are left in the world.

    Core Developers Network has a superior grasp on the CMP internals. They've got the entire Jetty crew. They've got the man who authored the distributed transaction manager and the JCA subsystem. Their early work heavily influenced the drive to AOP. They have an Apache Jakarta board member, which could make things very interesting."
    </The Inquirer>

    How bad is this for the JBoss project? If Mr. Fluery is nice and composed about all of this, and doesn't revoke commit privileges for the mutineers, it could be the best thing that happened to the project. More exposure, more production deployment, more unbiased, objective consulting. Better support. Maybe (yikes!) even better documentation.

    What's more interesting is that the article implies (IMHO) that the "guerilla" nature of CoreDeveloper's effort could be classified as the first significant attempt at a coup in the J2EE open source world. One with commercial implications at that.

    The article also has some text about the "antics" of The JBoss Group. Interesting choice of words.

    In any case, all this is testimony to the effectiveness of the open source development model - the only one under which a competetive company (shared IP) of this sort could even be dreamt of.

    Sandeep.
  5. You say *what*?[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    How bad is this for the JBoss project? If Mr. Fluery is nice and composed about all of this, and doesn't revoke commit privileges for the mutineers...
    </quote>

    I'm sorry, M. Fluery, nice and composed? Did I hear right? I think there is ample past evidence to conclude that it would not be libel for me to say this is unlikely...
  6. CDN Integrity?[ Go to top ]

    Hmmmph, for people who claim to have a business guided on the principles of integrity and honesty, they've been plotting their little departure since January (registration of the domain name). Plus, is it legal for them to be re-distributing JBoss Group's copyrighted documentation?

    They seem to be copying the JBoss Group for-pay services model without the JBoss Group winners--business and marketing savvy. Plus, it looks like these are the second-rate developers as well. A few lines of code and chanting peace and love aren't going to cut the mustard when it comes to building a business.
  7. CDN Integrity?[ Go to top ]

    Dain Sundstrom, one of the splitters, wrote the JBossCMP and the CMP documentation. I would assume that he retained some copyright on it. He was also teaching many of the JBoss training gigs. Doesn't sound very "second-rate" to me.

    Open source teams tend to be small with each person in it having their own piece they specialize in. Usually developers are focused on how far they can push the limits on their piece and tend not to look indepthly at other pieces which are well maintained by their respective teammates.

    This is great when you want to win the tech race and beat the pants off your competitors, but really bad when one or more of the major developers become your competitor.
  8. re: CDN Integrity?[ Go to top ]

    Actually, I think they have some of the key people from the CMP and distributed transaction groups.
  9. CDN Integrity?[ Go to top ]

    From what I can see they certainly have some first-rate developers there, and ones who've participated a lot on the JBoss mailing lists and forums. I think if anything is going to suffer its going to be the level of 'unofficial' support via these media.
  10. The Egos Have Landed[ Go to top ]

    The inquirer article is a piece of egotistical nonsense. If some Open Source prima-donna showed up at my company wearing a 'code poet' T-shirt he'd not get by security. As for throwing together an e-commerce site in a couple of hours, I guess they were probably using .NET for that. :-)

    But a lot of people seem to have lost site of what this group's business is, or at least what is should be. Providing J2EE consulting with a focus on JBoss. For that is doesn't matter if you wrote the DAO layer of the CMP subsystem and know how to kill 4 monsters on game boy advanced but that you have an idea how to build and architect a J2EE application (the two skills are not the same). To suceed in consulting you also need to have a good business and client knowledge.

    Unless I'm mistaken their business won't revolve around providing customised version of JBoss but in helping clients build portable J2EE applications based on JBoss. If the documentation wasn't so crap (part of the JBoss strategy) you wouldn't even need 'JBoss' consultants to get things running. I speak from experience of France Telecom's Wanadoo Professionel service which is based on JBoss.

    The article is also incorrect in saying that this sort of 'walk out' is unknown. Comparing JBoss Group to Sun is incorrect. JBoss group is a consulting firm. It is quite common for partners in consulting firms to part. It happens in law and doctors cabinets all the time and in IT I would say that Accenture and Arthur Andersen are a pretty good example.

    Unlike Weblogic, Websphere, Sun One etc JBoss is an open source project, it doesn't matter who the individual developers actually work for at any given time or even if they no longer have commit rights to the source, this doesn't mean that they cannot contribute to the source base.
  11. The Egos Have Landed[ Go to top ]

    <david>
    If some Open Source prima-donna showed up at my company wearing a 'code poet' T-shirt he'd not get by security.
    </david>


    Thank goodness for some sanity. I hate it when developers are assessed architecture or coding abilities, or the ability to deliver to deadlines.

    Good to see that we've got back to recruiting people who wear the right tie and have the correct haircut.

    /david

    PS: I've stopped wearing my bandana - would I get past your security now?
  12. CDN Integrity[ Go to top ]

    I've come across over half of the names on their developer list and I certainly wouldn't describe them as second rate. They also have a couple of extra advantages over the JBoss Group LLC.

    1. They can spell
    2. Their web site doesn't look like a graphic design nightmare

    If you are going to try and sell enterprise support and consulting contracts it really helps if you can spell development, negotiable and successful (http://www.jboss.org/index.html?module=html&op=userdisplay&id=services/index).
  13. Keep cool![ Go to top ]

    With Dain and David very good developers went away. That's the fact. Nothing more.

    But:
    1. they'll continue to contribute to the project
    2. even the best developer can be replaced

    So keep cool and wait.

    I trust in JBoss and our company uses it in production and there's absolutely no reason, why not! For us, JBoss does exactly, what it should do, very easily.

    If you develop close to the J2EE standard, you won't have any problem, even (but I really don't think so) if the JBoss project gets broken. In the worst case, you would have to move to another (commercial :-() app server. That's all.

    Markus Menner
  14. Commercial JBoss Group Forks[ Go to top ]

    Now things are getting *very* interesting. I wondered when all the controversy over the last couple of months would come to a head. I thought the code might be forked but I didn't expect this.

    Personally I think this can only be a good move for the JBoss community in general.

    Ian.
  15. Fork referres to coding temas disbanding not consulting group spople!

    The said mentioned consultants have repeat not severed their coding relationships with JBoss Group..

    This only referrers to consulting only !

    Some people reporting this as fork on JBoss Group know better and should be freaking ashamed of theirFUD spreading BS!

    Floyd did you report that they are stil coding for the JBoss project BTW and if not why not?
  16. Floyd did you report that they are stil coding for the JBoss project BTW and if not why not?


    Fred,

       The article almost implied that it was a code fork, which I did my best to imply that this was not the case with a title "Commercial JBoss Group Forks", rather than just "JBoss Group Forks".

        I clearly stated that this is just a new business venture, not a code split, because I want TSS to be respectable and of integrity, not a FUD shit stirrer.

        As for the fact that peope will still be coding for JBoss, that didn't seem like a major point since I already said that it's just a new business venture, not a code split. I figured people will just click to the CDN site and read it there.

    Floyd
  17. Although JBOSS has been one of the best App servers, it has always been into some trouble with sun or somehting els einside the team .. theses guys were bound to break at some point of time .. .. and who in the world can avoid the lust of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
  18. confused and worried[ Go to top ]

    Ok so what does this mean for me -- I am not a Jboss developer but I have bet the proverbial family farm on an enterprise app based on Jboss ?? Will the bug fixes and new releases be impacted ?
  19. This is the point...[ Go to top ]

    This must be the point when the "vendor viability", "future vision", and other marketing terms suddenly come to mind and become a reality.

    My 0.02
  20. confused and worried[ Go to top ]

    time to come up with some bucks for support licenses...
  21. confused and worried[ Go to top ]

    I'd hate to see anyone loose their farm.

    You could give OpenEJB a try. The coming 0.9.2 release is quite good. We had planned on having it out last week, there is just one open item on the release plan that is just about finished (a logging issue).

    I have the latest 0.9 branch cvs snapshot running on a box at home. It's a 700Mhz RedHat 7.3 box with only 128 MB of memory, but it works. It's my home machine, so don't go too crazy, but it will allow you to see the future 0.9.2 running embedded in Tomcat 4.1.24.
      
      http://www.openejb.info:8080

    As mentioned, that's OpenEJB running right inside Tomcat, so everything is local and there is no EJB server process running externally. It's actually running with InstantDB embedded as the database too, so everything but Tomcat itself is all embedded. Tomcat can be ran embedded as well, not sure the about the details on that though.

    The embedded semantics are all hidden behind the EJB API, so there is no difference in writing app using local OpenEJB versus a remote OpenEJB server. To use OpenEJB locally you just specify the org.openejb.client.LocalInitialContextFactory when you get an InitialContext. To run against a remotely running OpenEJB process, you just specify the org.openejb.client.RemoteInitialContextFactory instead. That's it. We always run our test suite once with OpenEJB embedded and again with OpenEJB running separately, so this is always guaranteed to work.

    The nice thing is that you can run EJB clients and the EJBs themselves as one standalone application. This means you can debug your app front to back in your favorite editor without the need for a special plug in or remote debugging support. You can also develop in a local environment, then deploy in a remote environment, no code changes required.

    It also means you can write standalone applications that use EJB. Yes, I said standalone EJB apps. Sounds strange at first, but it's just natural. This would be fantastic if you had a product you wanted to sell to little mom and pop shops as well as big environments. There is a sourceforge taking advantage of the whole standalone and|or distributed concept -- http://librarian.sourceforge.net

    Anyway, there isn't as much marketing behind OpenEJB, but it's a good project with new ideas of it's own. Keep your eyes peeled for the 0.9.2 announcement, should be in a day or two.
  22. I have bet the proverbial family farm on an enterprise app based on Jboss ??


    Hate to say it, but vendors change direction, business plans change.

    That's *why* compatibility is important, and why application portability is important. Don't bet the farm on a single source! Portable applications can be more easily migrated between compatible servers *when* you need to switch vendors.

    glen
  23. Aha! I can't wait to see the reactions of MarcF and Bill Burke to this latest saga. With just 18 developers, how is JBoss going to compete against the likes of IBM and BEA? It won't be long before the 75 customers start to bolt from JBoss either.

    Sayanora JBoss.
  24. The beginning of the end for JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    Make that 8 remaining developers!

    Manish, I think you better start thinking of alternatives FAST :-)

    "
    Ok so what does this mean for me -- I am not a Jboss developer but I have bet the proverbial family farm on an enterprise app based on Jboss ?? Will the bug fixes and new releases be impacted
    "
  25. The beginning of the end for JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    Couldn't agree more! JBoss could be seriously impacted ... as the
    inquirer.net article says:

    "
    In the corporate world, people come and go. It's the nature of the game. The JBoss Group has suffered losses before and come out strong. But have they ever sustained an attack of this scale? No way. Neither Sun nor BEA could have pulled off something this personally damaging to Fleury's company. The pressure that pulled them apart had to come from within.
    "

    I would love to see the looks on the few brave folks who were trying to cut costs in going with JBoss and betting their business on a few unproven ideas!
  26. A few untested ideas?[ Go to top ]

    Which ideas are untested? I'm interested in your thoughts on this. Would you suggest my father (a middle class real estate salesman) purchase a license from Sun or BEA for their server products?

    Maybe you have a point here. If so, would you please elaborate?

    Will
  27. Will, I was referring to JBoss LLC's business model and how they were going to change the world with all the new fangled profit sharing stuff. It was never going to work, esp with the head honchos raking in all the moolah. Kinda counter-intuitive in a community run project, don't you think?

    In any case, this just confirms my long standing belief (and fear) about using JBoss in any serious business application. I have steered away from JBoss for precisely these reasons of support and viability.

    I suggest your dad talk to one of the established app server companies for his licence.
  28. dont fork up Jboss[ Go to top ]

    I still have faith in Jboss and the people behind it. They can bicker , have creative differences and still unanimously commit to making Jboss 4.0 a great success. Otherwise they will all sink into oblivion.

    This does not have to be the end!

    It is precisely because Jboss is open source that I am prepared for even the worst case scenario -- I have occasionally been able to make enough sense of the source code, enough to get by atleast.
  29. The beginning of the end for JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    Will, I was referring to JBoss LLC's business model and how they were going to change the world with all the new fangled profit sharing stuff. It was never going to work, esp with the head honchos raking in all the moolah. Kinda counter-intuitive in a community run project, don't you think?

    >
    > In any case, this just confirms my long standing belief (and fear) about using JBoss in any serious business application. I have steered away from JBoss for precisely these reasons of support and viability.
    >
    > I suggest your dad talk to one of the established app server companies for his licence.

    From your previous posts you seem to have problems with Jboss and Websphere. Maybe you can enlighten the rest of the world as to which Appserver you consider to be adequate for J2EE development. Don't pick the market leaders as then you would be using Jboss or Websphere. Have you ever used any of these appservers or are you just a negative religious zealot.

    As for me I prefer in this order Jboss, Websphere, Weblogic. Very rarely need to deploy to any of the other ones.
  30. Maybe you've missed something here, but JBoss as a piece of software is still fine. JBoss Group is basically a consulting team to do your system architecture for you and to give you someone to yell at when you make mistakes (which is 90% of tech support). FCCI has used JBoss for over a year now and I can't say we've had a single problem with the software's support and viability.

    And if we did...say hello to Websphere, and because we won't lock ourselves into container-specific code, our porting effort will require virtually no effort. We know. We've tried.
  31. This is not a good sign for opensource community.
    p
  32. This is not a good sign for opensource community.

    This may not be good for JBoss Group but is good for JBoss. Imagine several companies are doing business around JBoss project. think about Linux.

    talip@jpower.org
  33. The beginning of the end for JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    "I have steered away from JBoss for precisely these reasons of support and viability. "

    So you didn't use jboss when there was only one support organisation. What are your criteria for using an open source app server?

    Now you have two choices for commercial support. And what makes you think that this affects JBoss's 'viability'? We still have the same group of people with the same level of commitment to JBoss. The CDN people left the jboss *group*, not the jboss *project*. Look at their web site, they say: 'Many of our partners are core developers with cvs commit privileges on the JBoss project, and this enables us to offer a wide range of services geared towards the JBoss server, including professional documentation, training and expert support.'

    The day JBoss stops fixing bugs or supporting new features which you need, write some deployment descriptors, and a cheque, for BEA. Until then, save your money and enjoy what is a very effective J2EE server.

    Tom
  34. The beginning of the end for JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    Tom Davies, it is only a question of time before the CDN folks lose their commit privileges (knowing MarcF). That should be interesting for all the folks who went with JBoss flavor du jour?

    Get over your tunnel vision dude!
  35. The beginning of the end for JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    Tom Davies, it is only a question of time before the CDN folks lose their commit privileges (knowing MarcF). That should be interesting for all the folks who went with JBoss flavor du jour?

    >
    > Get over your tunnel vision dude!

    Hey! Trolf is back with a new name!

    But seriously: I work for a small software company. I like to buy products from other small software companies. If I only ever trust the big guys (MS/IBM/etc) how can I expect our customers to trust us?

    All companies start small. If someone on this forum has tunnel vision it has to be you.
  36. Co-operate and compete?[ Go to top ]

    So JBoss Group and CDN will co-operate on JBoss development and compete for JBoss services? Do I get it right?
  37. The beginning of the end for JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    First Last, with a name like that, you know how much respect you command.
  38. Who cares who writes it[ Go to top ]

    The members of any of the companies is irrelevant. Or do you believe that only the JBoss founders are any good at software production? It's nice to have certain core team continuity but thats all really. And surely this is central to open source.

    Do you think it shows immaturity for concultants to split and form their own consultancies? Happens to the big consultancies all the time. It's healthy, as it shows the folks involved have some get up and go (gone).

    Do you think that JBoss and AOP and EJB will remain a viable platform for consultancies to grow from for the next 2 years, 4 years, 10 years. At some point their model will change from JBoss consultancy, to enterprise consultancy, to anyold consultancy to selling all their assets and settling in the sun. Change is inherant in this industry. People and tech.

    As for JBoss now being doomed. Rubbish. It's still the best free EJB app server and it's got AOP now if that kind of thing tickles you. Feel free to ditch it and spend 20K, 60K, whatever on some aging laviathan from huge co.

    Jonathan
  39. The beginning of the end for JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    First Last, with a name like that, you know how much respect you command.


    LOL! Being a non native english speaker I didn't notice that immediately. When asked about a First and Last names I answered 'First' and 'Last'. Now when I think about it I do realise that it may sound a little grande!

    Behold - I'm the First and the Last! :-) But as I explained, it's just first name First last name Last.

    Posting as anonymous should be no surprise to anyone. Even Rolf did that ;-)
  40. When would you use an OS ejb server?

    Do you work for BEA or IBM?

    Tom
  41. a crack in the core development and the whole product becomes shaky ...
    To people using jboss for production - forget abt jboss 4.0 , no one is gonna pick up phone there anymore ... <br>
    refer to BEA or PRAMATI

    [ why not IBM ??? - thats too expensive <br>
      why not sun ?? u r kidding me right :) ]
  42. What?[ Go to top ]

    Unproven ideas? I wasn't aware coding within the J2EE spec was an "unproven idea". We can change our deployment descriptors and move to another server if we want to. There's nothing we do that's JBoss specific.

    In fact, your attitude shows some sort of bias that suggests that, to write J2EE, you write to a server. Is it nice to be that tainted both mentally and in your infrasturcture.
  43. What?[ Go to top ]

    Rhett Butler, please see my comments re: unproven ideas. I wasn't talking about J2EE. Get a grip, I know you are freaked out by this whole forking thing :-)
  44. What?[ Go to top ]

    Seems to me you were calling JBoss "unproven ideas."

    Yeah, if you went around writing everything as JBoss MBeans, you deserve to eat it when JBoss goes south. If you're using it for what it is...a J2EE server...then there's little to worry about.
  45. not[ Go to top ]

    The Inquirer in good journalistic traditions is obviously being more scandalous than the reality is.

    Jboss Group is a commercial structure that provides services around Jboss, not its development.

    You should read the announcement from their page, this part in particular:
    "
    ...
    We are committed to having the same level of involvement in our current projects that we have had in the past. This means that we will continue to work on the JBoss project itself. In addition, we will continue to support the JBoss project via the jboss-development and jboss-users mailing lists maintained by SourceForge.net, as well as any other open public forum.
    ...
    "

    There's plenty of other open source projects where competing companies participate in the development of open source projects. One obvious example is Linux where IBM, HP and others all submit code.

    If anything, it only illustrates the maturity of Open Source Enterprise Java, and JBoss in particular: the existence of the Core Developers Network will show whether the market needs more than one company to provide services around JBoss from the developers who have the intimate knowledge of the software.

    That of course depends on Marc Fleury not being stubborn and not revoking the commit privileges from the people who left JB Group, but I think he's smarter than that.

    - Ed Y.
  46. I don't think so.

    The only problem I can foresee is that JBoss LLC and Core Developers Network fighting amongst themselves in the source tree and in terms of directions. That could get ugly and lead to a lessening of quality of JBoss.

    As far as I can tell, none of the JBoss SourceForge project administrators are part of the Core Developers Network, so the Core Developers could lose their cvs commit rights. See Administering Developers for Your SourceForge Project Administrators cannot change one another's privileges.

    Msr Fleury is a passionate individual, and does shoot from the hip/heart. He is obviously passionate about the open source movement. It will be interesting to see his reaction.

    LetÂ’s wait and see. The best thing would be to have JBoss work like Apache, with individuals collaborating and voting for change, even when they compete in some way on the market place. If we continue to see the Core Developer Network members contributing to the development of JBoss, and no lessening of the quality of JBoss or support of the broader community, then we are fine continuing with JBoss.

    Cheers,

    Sherman
  47. My guess is the Core Developer Group won't last more than 2 years. They would probably lose their CVS commit privileges and be left out in the cold.
  48. Sayanora JBoss?[ Go to top ]

    OK. Suppose someone thought that selling consulting on JBoss alone was not meeting the needs of many developers who need to set up projects with ant, junit, xdoclet, as well as JBoss, a web server, and some industrial strength db. So you call these guys nad they come in and tell you how to set all this up, and oh yes, they also look at your application and tell you what a good architecture would be. Pretty picture, but let's face it, if you need ongoing support, it will be mostly for JBoss. So how can they let JBoss fail?
  49. non-code fork[ Go to top ]

    One thing I don't understand. The story says that both groups will have CVS write access to the jboss codebase. Obviously having a non-code-fork is a good thing for the jboss project, but how is that supposed to work? Even with Linux, Linus has the final say.

    I may just be confused because I'm used to a dictatorial style of project management.
  50. Committers vote on major features/design changes. This seems to have worked well for projects like the Apache webserver, projects under the Jakarta umbrella, and many others. My impression is that the dictatorial approach is actually in the minority: it doesn't often scale well and most normal humans burn out from the load.
  51. Commercial JBoss Group Forks[ Go to top ]

    To the JBoss User Community,

    We regret the departure of three of our US consultants, however this sort of thing happens every day in the services industry.

    With JBoss Group, it is business as usual. Our customers will continue to receive the highest quality of service that they have come to expect from JBoss Group.

    The project is alive and thriving, with JBoss 4 announced just this week. If anyone has any specific concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.

    It is business as usual and looking forward to seeing a lot of you next week at JBoss Two and JavaOne in San Francisco.

    Best Regards,
    Ben Sabrin
    Director of Business Development
    JBoss Group, LLC
    ben@jboss.org
  52. Commercial JBoss Group Forks[ Go to top ]

    Ben Sabrinopogo, I thought the "original" JBoss LLC just has 8 developers remaining! Why do you lie by saying only 3 developers have quit? Reality hasn't set in yet?
  53. Get your facts straight[ Go to top ]

    Ben Sabrinopogo, I thought the "original" JBoss LLC just has 8 developers remaining! Why do you lie by saying only 3 developers have quit? Reality hasn't set in yet?


    Ben said "We regret the departure of three of our US consultants." From this I inferred that not all of the developers in the CDN are from the US. I guess you could not come to this fairly simple conclusion.

    Also, what is with your juvenile bastardizing of people's names (Fluery -> Flowery; Sabrin -> Sabrinopogo)? Is that to cover up the fact that you have nothing valuable to offer the discussion?

    Ryan
  54. Professionalism[ Go to top ]

    Cary Bloom please learn the meaning of the world professionalism. Of the CDN only Dain Sunstrom and David Jencks made any significant contribution to the JBoss code base. Those are the two, taking the inquirer as the gospel is like relying on the The Star of the National Inquirer for your news.

    Ben
  55. Mr. Sabrin,

    Your response to Bloom's post isn't very representative of your better character. While I agree with you that Mr. Bloom's posts are considerably less than professional, there is really no reason for you to respond to them. There is certainly no call for you to channel your angst toward the Inquirer. Statements like this one do not well serve your reputation or the reputation of the company whose interests you are supposed to represent. Neither here nor anywhere else.

    Your thoughts about professionalism should begin, rather than end your behaviour while addressing sensitive topics like these. A great deal can be inferred about a person's character by what they choose not to say and by the tone of their posts and letters. That is where courtesy comes in. I respectfully suggest you consider your words more carefully in the future. Sometimes, professionalism is not enough. This is one of those times.

    I can clearly see you're holding in a considerable amount of frustration about this week's events. Your statements are beginning to contradict one another and your manners are becoming a bit strained. With all due respect for the good job you've done this week on damage control, perhaps you should consider taking the night off and getting some rest or perhaps some excercise. It always helps me release tension.

    Remember, there is a good deal more to life than business. After a fashion, I believe that's what this week's events have been about.

    Very respectfully yours,

    William Tabat
    Birchwood, WI
  56. Mr. Tabat;

    I hope your response to Mr. Sabrin is not representative of your better character as it's pomposity is only exceeded by the dreariness of your respectful suggestions.

    Nicholas Whitehead
    Madison, NJ
  57. Nicholas Nickleby[ Go to top ]

    I'm afraid you and Rhett Butler don't make any sense. You are the pompous dudes on this forum ;)
  58. Nicholas Nickleby, Ryan Broderbund[ Go to top ]

    If you have nothing concrete to say, then pl don't.
  59. A step in the right direction[ Go to top ]

    I think this is a step in the right direction for JBoss. Sun is saying that JBoss can't be certified because the JBoss Group controls it and the JBoss Group is a commercial entity. Multiple entites which support and contribute to JBoss only shows that JBoss is a true open source application server and is not exclusively controlled by a single commercial entity.

    I would like to see this move a step further where a non-profit organization is created that controls JBoss and JBoss Group, Core Developers Network and others have a say in where the JBoss project goes. I think JBoss is getting too big for something like this not to happen.
  60. JBoss Cluster[ Go to top ]

    This is great. Another avenue for support, documentation, and more voice for businesses/developers, all building on the same code base. This can only be good news for JBoss. Think of it as a JBoss HA cluster supporting fail-over of support sevices. Businesses will love this risk mitigating model.

    The other shoe has to drop first. I hope JBoss Group embraces this change. Yes, there is more competition but this should grow the pie if they handle it right. If they don't, I'm sure BEA and WebLogic will have new price sheets out as fast as you can say node-lock.

    JBoss has great technology, Marc has done great job selling the sizzle. Now is a good as a time as any to refactor to grow the business and user base.

    cheers
  61. makes sense[ Go to top ]

    it seems those guys are still developing jboss in the same capacity. the consulting arm (llc) seems to have split. most of the areas they are consulting are what they use in jboss anyways, so it makes sense for them to advertise all the areas that they know very well.

    they're just another enity that will make money off of jboss. in fact, their claim to fame is jboss, so that says something in itself. the website implies that jboss is their meat, so they have to exist symbiotically with the source code.

    maybe other companies will consult and contribute to jboss too. if there is demand for jboss, the consulting services around it has to grow in order to accomodate, no?
  62. Committer Strategy[ Go to top ]

    I'm interested in the strategy of building a business by aggregating committers from various complementary technologies. Will this change how projects evaluate potential committers. Instead of just doing good work consistently will agendas be addressed. "Well Mr. Jones we analyzed your blog entries and the philosophy of your current employer and find it incompatible with our project direction. But thank you for your fine work and we look forward to any future contributions -1."

    It also appears that companies with current JBoss Group support contracts have a window to evaluate the new company for free. Looks like someone took the rolodex.
  63. Calm Down Folks...[ Go to top ]

    Well, this is bound to happen. There will always be disagreements in any organization or group (be it over ideas, $$$, or directions). In my opinion, this is actually better for JBoss. People needs to remember that the JBoss app server is open-source, which means the JBoss LLC Group does not own it, so the code and product will always survive. Even if (god forbids) the JBoss code forks into two code bases/projects, the competition will only make it better and the public will have two choices to suit their needs. Furthermore, you now have two professional service organizations to choose from, which means if you are not satisified with one of them, you can now go to the other. Not to mention there are still tons of smaller consulting firms that provide services for JBoss.

    Now, let's say you decide to go with a commerical J2EE server. They later got bought out by some giant company. The original founders get filthy rich and no longer have any incentives to work on it any longer. The giant company then messed it all up or even ditch the product a few years later. Now where would you be? With open source, at least other bright people can pick up the source code and run with it.

    Ben
  64. more documentation is a good thing[ Go to top ]

    I will gladly pay for more documentation from both the groups, even if it is redundant. Currently, my company cannot afford to buy commercial support from either group but its nice to know that when I have the money for this, I will also have more choices.



    -manish
  65. As a commercial user of JBoss, I was sorry to see them lose some valuable people, two of whom (Dain and David) had been especially helpful to me in the past on various code and configuration problems.

    I was impressed with how quickly JBoss got in touch and provided us with new support contacts. After reviewing our project with our new JBoss support contact, I have every reason to expect that support will continue to go smoothly in the future.

    So the controversy here escapes me. We are very happy with JBoss and with the support we've received on it. Of course, things change and we may find ourselves re-evaluating things down the road, but that's true with anything (and it was that sort of re-evaluation that made us drop our previous vendor and move to JBoss in the first place).