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News: An analysis of .NET

  1. An analysis of .NET (15 messages)

    The .NET platform is an improvement for Visual C++ and Visual Basic programmers, but it is yet another proprietary Microsoft platform which will tie the developer to Windows, albeit possibly a .NET-ized notion of Windows.

    Read the article on java.sun.com".

    Threaded Messages (15)

  2. This is the same posting I made at www.slashdot.org. I am sure there would be plenty here who would like to flame me. But if you cant write anything meaningful then please dont reply. Following is snippets from the original article and my comments inline.

    ...Microsoft is spinning [.Net] as innovative new platform but what they're really doing is giving developers an updated set of handcuffs...

    Yeah Right.. The same one Java Developers wear :) . Primarily, Platform independence was never meant to be accomplished by tying down the developer to a single language, which is Java trying to do. Platform independence or system integration should be at the level of Data, not at the level of language. Microsoft is pushing XML in anything and everything to achieve this. Java achieves platform independence by coding against the minimum set provided by all platforms. .Net allows you to code in any language achieveing a better output, since here again you are not tied to one platform, since any of MS vendors could create a .Net framework in any other OS, including Sun Solaris. Lets see whether Sun would do that or not.


    ..Essentially, .NET is an effort to help traditional Visual C++ and Visual Basic programmers catch up with the times....

    Tell me whats wrong with that Bozo !!.. Both these languages has still a huge market share than anything else in the world. I feel pretty safe saying that VB is one of the best things that could have come along for businesses that want an application up quickly that performs acceptably. C++ may have a performance edge, but when combined with the latency of your network or the Internet, it doesn't make a bit of difference. Plus, the increased control you have with C++ or Java doesn't really gain you anything you can't accomplish more easily with VB, just more effort with greatly diminishing returns. What Microsoft is doing is trying not to lose market share, and in turn come up with a Loosely coupled architecture for integrating and deploying heterogenous systems. Yup..Flame Me.

    ....There are no third party vendors of ASP+. In contrast there many vendors of JSPTM solutions for a variety of platforms...

    First off all, JSP was a ripoff from ASP. ASP has a much bigger developer base and ASP developers has been crying for better features and thats where ASP+ comes in. Now ASP+ will use Visual Basic, C#, and possibly other languages for code snippets. All get compiled into native code through the common language runtime (as opposed to being interpreted each time, like ASPs). So you could mix and match languages and not be tied to Java alone.

    ...Microsoft has not suggested or even hinted that the .NET platform as a whole will handed over a standards body, so standardization can only exist at the language level....

    First of all, Sun doesnt work well with IBM or anyone else in opening up Java. Now they cry wolf when MS doesnt open up the Framework For .Net. M$ has already given Corel the responsibility for building the Framework for Other OS's including Linux. Obviously it would be benefit them financially, but we are not tied down to one OS ultimately.

    ..The Java language, VM, and APIs are all vendor neutral. There is no vendor lock in....

    Yeah right..except that you are locked in to one language who still dont deliver in terms of Portability. Tell me if all the Java code that you write is instantly portable across all the platforms and then you would know what I am talkign about.

    .....The key difference is that the Java platform is a mature cross-platform solution with no direct ties to any underlying operating system.....

    Where does this guy live ? Antartica ? Corel would work with M$ in porting the .Net framework over to other OS. I would believe it when I see it, but efforts are underway. So if you dont know what you are talking about then SHUT UP..and dont mislead anyone out there. And the key difference about JAVA that he so eloquently speaks about, is achieved by coding against the least denominator of features provided by the platform.

    ...This means that any nontrivial application built on the .NET platform must run on Windows, and Windows alone....

    Tsk..tsk.. This guy just dont realise..does he.. Right now this is true, but not when the .Net framework is ported across platforms.

    ...Apparently, the underlying goal of .NET is to perpetuate platform lock-in. ....

    Pure Unadulterated FUD.. Look at this guy. He claims to be a close ally of Scott McNealy (at his website) and shamelessly propogates worthless FUD about his hacking capabilities. I have nothing to say about him.

    ....Sun is not the only vendor of the Java platform. IBM, Symantec, Apple, as well ....

    Well didnt we all hear sometime back that these other vendors were planning to liberate Java from Sun ? tsk..tsk..

    ...Third parties have inspected the Java platform's publicly-available source code for security holes.....

    True.. But is Java all secure as it claims to be? Everyone knows M$ Java VM was faster that any thing else in the Industry. But Sun should rather worry about closing the holes in Sun Solaris 2.7 before they comment on Windoze.

    Ultimately, no Interpreted language would ever hold a candle to something that compiles to native code. Though you might hastly add that the new Java VM as compiled to byte code and are faster than native code, Java is not infamous for speed alone. The language hasnt yet matured yet. And if .Net makes the waves, Java might never be.M$ is leveraging that to provide integration across heterogenous platforms through the CLR. Like it or not..its going to happen and thats what make sense.

    My two cents.. Thanks for reading.
  3. wow!
    that is a lot of good stuff, but also a lot of anger in your article.
    I'm glad you are venting it through your computer instead of people around you :)

    You make a lot of valid points about Java as one and only one language.
    When it comes to portability I still believe that OMG is doing the best work to bridge different platforms with different languages together.CORBA, in my humble opinion, provides superior portability.

    When it comes to Microsoft, this is a company that is having a hard time securing their own network, my apologies for being sarcastic. They turned around and made all the extensions to the Microsoft VM, but none of the extensions were portable anywhere. So Microsoft never really had any intentions on helping to broaden the Java market, their only intentions were to try to convert all the Java developers and lock them in into their own VM.
    I have written Java code that was instantly portable over Windows NT to Linux to Solaris, so I can't complain about the portability, in fact I am pretty impressed with it.

    And yes you are right, JSP were a complete rip off of ASP. But they were also an enhancement, hence the JSP model works a lot better than the ASP model in the enterprise.
    I'm curious about ASP+ that sounds exciting. Thanks for bringing that up.

    So again, thanks a lot for your feedback ,it has helped me out a lot. You have truly expanded my interest into the .net area.

    but man, you've got to chill out. If Madhu posts more articles I'm afraid it will throw you over the edge. Don't take it so personally, try to see all development as an effort in bringing the society and science forward.
    Even though it is still a competitive business following the Darwin theory :)

    have a great weekend.

    Filip
  4. Hi,
    I appreciate your balanced approach.
  5. Sorry to say that, but you haven't even a clue what your're talking about. Some of the most striking errors in your article:

    1. M$ has the option to tell Corel to port .NET to linux. There is no porting projekt now.

    2. About M$ cross plattform: I've they would embrace cross plattform, why is there no VC++ on Linux (Solaris,...). Why was the COM UNIX project done by SAG killed ?

    3. XML has nothing to do with a plattform. I do all my data exchange in XML and Java. All my configurations are done with XML. My interfaces with other applications on different plattforms/applications use XML.

    4. VB might be a good programming language for pet projekts (aka desktop applications). I saw some enterprise VB projects going down in flames because the applications were not supportable.

    5. Talking about rip offs. JSP did HTML->Java compiling, now ASP+ does the same.

    6. Standards: C# as a standard is worth nothing without the APIs and a reference implementation and test suites. SUN does a much better job (J2EE compliance).

    7. "SHUT UP". See above about Corel and SAG. There will be no ports. M$ is selling windows. They make money from this. A lot of money. They have no interest in providing cross plattform frameworks.

    8. What has the speed of the M$ VM to do with Java security ? I don't get this one.

    Have you done J2EE development ?
    And btw. use what you like. Calm down. I use the tools that help solve my problems. And if M$ provides better cross plattform tools for free, then I will use them. But 20 years of M$ history are a hint that this will not happen. (Is M$ cobol still supported ? I liked that one on CPM. But they change their "vision" every 2 years.)

    -stephan
  6. I more think they both win finally. Microsoft stuff
    is easy to learn, simple to use and still suitable to
    small to medium business and very productive than java.

    but j2ee could be very complicated and used in some
    crucial project such as Fortune 500 company or bank system.

    Just as their server market.
    The only problem is which way we could earn more. :-)
  7. Charles,
    Speaking of FUD, you seem to like spreading it yourself...

    When written properly, I have never had a problem running classfiles compiled on NT on Solaris. It would also run on a Mac and an OS/390 if I had access to them... And what does the speed of the MS VM have to do with security? This is simply a Straw Man Attack.

    Do I feel "locked in to Java" the language? Well no, since anything that I can't do in Java I can do in C/C++ with JNI or in any other language with CORBA (and really, there's not much I can't do in Java). Out here in the real world, Enterprise projects are rarely written such that two or more different languages are needed to create the application (at least not that tightly integrated).

    Java has way more XML support than any MS stuff I've used lately.

    Yes JSP is a rip-off of ASP...it's also better. And last time I did some ASP development (about 24 hours ago), ASP locked you into VBscript (have you ever tried to do ASP in anything else, even JScript...it don't work). As for C# and ASP+...well, comparing what vapourware WILL (maybe) do and what Java already does is just, well, silly.

    I have a real fundemental question....Have you ever even programmed in Java?

    BTW, Try reading some of the responses to you other posting...
    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/11/09/1815249&threshold=0&commentsort=1&mode=thread&pid=100#439

    Now go away...

  8. Try going here also:

    http://www.java.sun.com/features/2000/11/dotnetvsms.html?frontpage-banner
  9. Cherian,

    VB does still have a great market share cause it is easier to develop and has shorter learning curve for some cute desktop apps...... but there ends the good times......

    It does not scale up....for enterprise class apps...on the internet

    Java does...in a nice, easy and interesting way.... I would suggest you to read J2EE Blueprints & Specifications on java.sun.com/j2ee site .

    It should clear all your misconceptions about java.

    Good Luck..

  10. Cherian,

    1. VB is OK to write an app for a Pizza shop, but I would prefer Delphi anyway (it could integrate via CORBA with backend ERP ;)
    2. MS Java is not the fastest one

    Other than that... I cannot believe you are serious. MS and cross-platform integration? You've gotta be kidding.
  11. Yes MAHDU IS ONLY FARTING AROUND..
  12. This thread : http://theserverside.com/discussion/thread.jsp?thread_id=4306 might also be of interest in the -

    J2EE vs M$ .NET debate...
  13. An analysis of .NET[ Go to top ]

    Cherian
     I used to develop quite a few apps in VB. Yes VB is easy to use , learn and be productive in. But VB is closed source and only allows you to go so deep. Java allows you to dig as deep as you want into the actual workings of the language. Java has much of the power of languages like C++ but it purposely avoids allowing you to perform bad programming practices. Java is very much like a higher level language and is not very difficult to use. The majority of the learning curve in java for me came from learning good OO practices, not from syntax differences. Java also is proven to scale to true enterprise class applications. VB? Don't make me laugh.
         Java language that is best described as being "middle" level, higher than c++ but lower than vb. If java is so crap why is MS inventing c#.
        Comparing Microsoft tools with the "big" player application server can't be even taken seriously. Microsoft tools are not even considered as an option for the big businesses out there creating these applications. Do you see Microsoft using ASP/Com+ on their high end sites? Not on Hot Mail.
       One other point noting is Microsoft has a habit of being open source long enough to tie people to their product then they cut everybody off to try and drive them out of business, Microsoft is proud to be a "one stop shop" for everything. What type of momentum do you seriously think there will be to make .net the cross platform tool of choice?
    Jeff Anderson
         
  14. An analysis of .NET[ Go to top ]

    It seems to me that proponents of M$ technologies usually don't know the first thing about REAL development. Anyone who can compare Java to VB and claim VB has ANY advantages is someone who never participated in a real enterprise class development effort with VB. Trust me; it's a agonizing, bug-ridden painful language. Don't believe me? In VB, how do we do command line compilation? Version our DLLs without major effort (oh, I need a second dll just to preserve binary compatibility) ?
    Use strongly typed variables ( yeah, they claim that VB is a strongly typed language but, guess what? It ain't )? Use the MTS shared propery group manager( the sorriest piece of shit component from M$ that I've ever had the displeasure of using )?

    Take it from someone with experience in MFC, Visual C++, Visual Basic as well as J2EE ( also a Microsoft Certified engineer ). When you try Java, you never go back willingly. BTW - what ever happened to Windows DNA? Did it merge with ActiveX, I mean COM+ and become Windows .NET?

    Sun and Microsoft both have terrific PR machines. I suggest we all move beyond these and look at the CODE. Which is better? Is it even a question?


  15. An analysis of .NET[ Go to top ]

    www.Madhu.com is a Sick and Disgusting site .. this Fool does not even know how to config his DNS setting on the net ( off course that is why Madhu.com is not working. )and is giving all talk on .Net.. I understand why Sun is going to get skrewed on account of Goons like this.
  16. C# criticism available here![ Go to top ]

    http://www.geocities.com/csharpfaq

    Find out why C# is a broken language. Find out why delegates are not typesafe, why "Type System Unification" is a myth, why properties make code harder to maintain, why structs are ill-designed, and why user defined implicit conversions are a terrible idea.

    And if you think you know C# take the two simple tests and prepare to be humbled. When you see the answers to the tests you will understand why no decent programmer will touch this poorly designed language, not even with a barge pole.