Discussions

News: Microsoft Wins Appeal Against Including Java with Windows

  1. Reuters and The Register report that the three-member federal appeals court in Virginia ruled today the U.S. District Judge J. Frederick Motz erred when he ordered Microsoft to include Java with the Windows operating system. Fortunately, Dell and HP, the top 2 PC makers, have already decided to ship Java on the PCs that they sell. Apple, Red Hat and Lindows have also agreed to include Sun's Java."

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/31449.html
    http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=QRLLFMAPDJTNECRBAE0CFEY?type=businessNews&storyID=2998112

    Regards,
    Dejan Bosanac

    Threaded Messages (53)

  2. Lame lame lame[ Go to top ]

    Could our gov't be in bed any more with big business. I for one am ready to leave. Anyone up for opening up an off shore gaming site in Costa Rica with me.

    I am glad to see that these other companies are shipping Java on their own, but why can not the largest convicted monoplist?
  3. Now that MS will be forbidden to put its own vesrion of JVM integrated to its Windows OS, it's time for SUN, IBM, DELL, HP and other like minded companies to put standard compling JVMs in the PCs (with windows OS) they sell. This will boost the developer's confidence in Java.
  4. " SUN, IBM, DELL, HP and other like minded companies "
    U are kidding right ....
  5. I am glad, we do not need MS forced to carry Java, that is lame. No need for help.

    Java can compette on it's own, and Java on Server.

    Also Sun VM has memory leaks in JSP compiles, StringBuffer, etc. etc.
    If anything use jRockit VM or IBM VM.
    That is Java, cross platform.

    As will CLI be.

    .V
  6. bohoo we lost bo hooo bohooo[ Go to top ]

    from the text of the decision

    "purpose of anti-trust laws is to protect competition, not competitors".

    chameleon
  7. MS IE[ Go to top ]

    Earlier M$ announced that there would not be separate releases IE and its updates because "the only way to innovate in the browser area is to improve the OS".
  8. Applications using applets will fail, but the real strength , strong hold of java which is the server side is not going to be affected at all. I think java sucks on the client side anyway, so why bother so much. Just like COM - OCX from microsoft is kind of "old and gone", I see applets going in that direction too. So Stop using applets and stuff .. just be realistic, go with simple MVC pattern, its a lot better.
        To some extent I guess the judges are right as to one vendor can decide what to include and what not on its own products. so MSFT can decide not to put java support in its IE or OS or whatever it can sell. not that i love to see this, but legally i think it makes sense.
        I m not sure why theserverside didnt have a lot of discussion on AOL- MSFT aggreement on using IE. To me that was almost last nail in Netscape coffin. anyway ...
    Happy Coding !!!
  9. guess the judges are right as to one vendor can decide what to include and what not on its own products.> Until they DO NOT claim that it is an industry standard.
  10. So Stop using applets and stuff .. just be realistic, go with simple MVC

    >> pattern, its a lot better

    ¿Que?
  11. what is wrong with applets?[ Go to top ]

    So Stop using applets and stuff .. just be realistic, go with simple MVC

    > >> pattern, its a lot better
    >

    yes, i would say "que?" too.. I ve often been using applets for big companies for manipulating critical informations: admin tools, monitoring.. Applets are secure, easy to deploy and much more interactive than an html page. That is the difference between thin and rich client.
    MVC? have you heard about Swing?
  12. Do you know that SWING sucks >>[ Go to top ]

    if u dont then u would realize it soon .. sun also realized it long back -
  13. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    Does this really even matter? Isn't most Java development done in the corporate environment? Does the regular non-technical user that's just surfing really missing out on anything because his/her version of IE doesn't include the latest VM? Aren't applets from the Internet consumption side really dead? I guess I just don't see this as a big deal.

    --Vinny Carpenter
    http://j2eegeek.blogspot.com
  14. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    Of course it does, since there is such a thing as client side Java app besides applets!
  15. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    how many really use client side java app ??????? is it worth it or just a legacy or just being lazy to not to move to serverside ?
    can u give me some examoples or names of corporations using it ???
  16. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    Take a look at Callidus Software's TrueComp http://www.callidus.com. It is a client-side java application and is one of the leading applications in it's industry.
  17. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    Coorection, http://www.callidussoftware.com/
  18. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    Take a look at Callidus Software's TrueComp http://www.callidus.com. It is a client-side java application and is one of the leading applications in it's industry

    thats it ??? One industry ? how many clients does it server - specially on an internet serveice and not a INTRANET site. 90% of the java applications based , applets based projects are done for intranet usuage. And they can download the vm as addon for sure for their intranet users. Rest of the 10% i guess they will be affected. Thats why i said move to web based stuff - people have left client server type scenario long time back .. its time for u all to change tooo ...
  19. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    thats it ??? One industry ?

    I was mearly giving an example. I am not concerned with listing all applications that are Java client.

    how many clients does it server - specially on an internet serveice and not a INTRANET site.

    This is a client-side application. This client app does not server other client apps. Who said anything about internet service?

    90% of the java applications based , applets based projects are done for intranet usuage. And they can download the vm as addon for sure for their intranet users. Rest of the 10% i guess they will be affected. Thats why i said move to web based stuff - people have left client server type scenario long time back .. its time for u all to change tooo ...

    You asked and you did not specify intranet or internet. I think you need to take a "chill pill" and stop being so "religious" over this topic. In addition, other examples have been posted as well. Not all applications require or should be "web-based".
  20. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    how many really use client side java app ???????


    I do. Any one who uses Eclipse does. :) or Netbeans. Or ... .

    >is it worth it

    More than worth it. At least one reason is that it keeps me from thinking that the project is "just a web app" and getting tied down with my architecture.

    >or just a legacy

    Legacy? Maybe applets. But I just recently was able to demonstrate how a web page could be loaded alot faster using one rather than the "corresponding" jsp\etc code. And a lot more cleanly(more maintainable, readable, compileable). The only way to make theirs faster was to do lazy loading. And believe me, the code was ugly enough.

    >or just being lazy to not to move to serverside ?

    I believe that the opposite true. Laziness is why we have so many "Web Apps" that should have a heavy/medium client instead. That and lack of knowledge about the alternatives.

    > can u give me some examoples or names of corporations using it ???
    Any one using Eclipse/WSAD/Netbeans/DB2 tools.

    I don't think I can tell you the companies I've done it at. I would have to ask.
  21. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    I think making any app heavy / medium client side is a very bad idea. Because in that case u have to assume a lot of things about client side which in a lot of diverse applications, b 2 c types is a big mistake. I have done a lot of client server type in the past with meduim to think client - it sucks, how much ever brain u put in it - and thats why internet and browser based apps have emerged. so ur whole argument of heavy clients is really not worth it.

    I m not sure why u r talking about Netbeans or Eclipse or DB2 dependent on this microsoft case. I have used all these tools without being bothered by what browser i use or if msft tool is supporting any particular jvm or not. And if u r so bothered then u have netscape and others to use. and this usuage pattern u have told is very very very less. I m sure u havent got an idea as to what this whole microsoft case is about and what exactly it is affecting ....

    I spent my time explaining someone who doesnt have a clue as to whats being discussed. :)

    Good bye
  22. JVM in client does matter[ Go to top ]

    M$ is monopoly to break this evil empire we need to include java jvm on windows which needs to be enforced. Just take a look at M$ what they have done to application industry. I dont see any compition on the M$ Office application wordperfect, lotus was forced out of the windows market by evil M$. The same thing
    happend with the browser market ..that is whay M$ says that browser is part of OS but in EU they just said it can been taken out of the OS what hell is that .
    If linux and Java wasnt here we would be in the dark ages.


    I think the M$ trolls are in full swing here.
  23. the main reason behind it is that ms office is one of the best products in the market today and thats why people use it. no one - absolutely no one can beat msft in terms of user friendly GUI and easy to use products. All u guys why not use star office - it WAS FREE for some time .. where is it now .. who is stopping u from not using it .. all of us - java coomunity havent used star office that much to really give a fight to msft. And part of the reason is that we have to agree msft does make some good software. It not just msft marketing - its to do with finding a better alternative to ms office - which i havent come across in years
  24. \decor\
    the main reason behind it is that ms office is one of the best products in the market today and thats why people use it.
    \decor\

    I've used various versions of office for years, primarily for technical documentation, and frankly a depressing amount of my time is spent fighting Word. The reason I use it is because that's what the company bought - and in many cases, they had no other real options. I frankly look forward to the day when companies can once again choose their office suite, and we don't have to put up with a single vendor's implementation. Good, bad, or indifferent, one size doesn't fit all.

    Of course, this can be easily extrapolated beyond office suites :-)

       -Mike
  25. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    I think making any app heavy / medium client side is a very bad idea. Because in that case u have to assume a lot of things about client side which in a lot of diverse applications, b 2 c types is a big mistake. I have done a lot of client server type in the past with meduim to think client - it sucks, how much ever brain u put in it - and thats why internet and browser based apps have emerged. so ur whole argument of heavy clients is really not worth it.

    >

    You may think that they are a bad idea and you might have had bad experiences with them, but that doesn't make them a bad idea. With Java, I don't need to make assumptions about the client. Typically, the problem is the developer doesn't know what they are doing or doesn't understand what they are doing - no matter how many apps they have done - and thus they think it is a bad idea. It takes more ability and less brains. Of course the same is true with browser apps (non-plugin - Applets and Flash are typically browser based).

    Your reasoning as to why browser apps (non-plugin) have emerged is flawed. The main reason is because of application distribution. The problem is that browser apps (non-plugin) are difficult to develop and maintain(see all the frameswork attempting to solve this). And the developers need to know more. At least 4 languages - Javascript, Java, Html, SQL. Not to mention a template/scripting language. And then you need a web designer because since it is in the browser it has to be pretty. I have never (and I have worked several places) seen a maintainable browser app (non-plugin). Certain frameworks can alleviate some of the problems(top of my list are Tapestry and Echo). To top it off is the "back button" issue. The browser was not created to house applications and it shows.

    Applets were never really that bad, if developed correctly. Webstart has helped to solve the distribution problem. In fact, the swing is back to heavy\medium applications. So it seems your are behind

    BTW, heavy\medium applications can be internet applications. All of mine are. They just don't all run in the browser.

    Don't get me wrong. Sometimes the browser is the "best" (read lesser of two evils) place for the app. Or least part of it. Neither is 100% right. It takes knowledge, ability and understanding to know when and where. Unfortunate, the majority of those involved in application development haven't a clue. And that is sad.

    > I m not sure why u r talking about Netbeans or Eclipse or DB2 dependent on this microsoft case.
    >
    Because you were discussing the lack of need for heavy/medium clients. I provided at least 3 Java heavy clients. (The DB2 reference is their Control Center. If you don't like that - see Oracle's) There is no way (sanely) that these could operate as browser based(non-plugin) applications. And there are many more.

    >
    I have used all these tools without being bothered by what browser i use or if msft tool is supporting any particular jvm or not.
    >
    Exactly. You mean you use Java applications? I thought you said they sucked. Use the browser version. (Those definitely would suck).

    >
      And if u r so bothered then u have netscape and others to use. and this usuage pattern u have told is very very very less.
    >
    Ok, you lost me there. Bothered? The only thing bothering me here is your unrealistic claims.

    I use IE and Mozilla. Funny thing - I use Mozilla to check my clients Exchange email(OWA) cause IE loads it too slow or won't even load. (Sorry - that was a rabbit trail)


    >
     I m sure u havent got an idea as to what this whole microsoft case is about and what exactly it is affecting ....
    >
    Based on what? Your lack of understanding as to what I was saying and what you were talking about? I do understand what the case is about. I was only replying to your comments.
     
    > I spent my time explaining someone who doesnt have a clue as to whats being discussed. :)
    I'm sorry you didn't understand. You explained nothing. You only made statements as to what your thoughts are (ie "I think making").
  26. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    1. By the time i m done with my work with a browser based application , your applet will be still showing "loading ..." message. So please stop this crap of client side apps being fast.they have never been and wont be.
    2. if u cant design ur browser based apps becoaz of a back button on the browser , then no one can help u. Its the way u design ur apps to make sure the back button wot create any trouble, And there are billions of web sites which are running fine WITH the back buttons. Also i m sure if u have ur client side app, it makes a call to ur back end every time there is a back button hi,t Thats much heavier than a cached page. So there is always a plus and minus in both ..
    3. for java apps also u have to learn java and sql. Java script can be avoided completely .. and if u are worried abt LEARNING more than one language for a application , then i have noithign to say to u .. why not write ur own file system handling also instead of using a database.
    4. eclipse, db2, and all other heavy tools can be used on ur own machine, msft carrying jvm or not wont have any effect on this.
    5. about IE loading too slow - well i guess u havent worked with netscape yet :)

    Howmuch ever i m a java lover and hate msft for .net shit etc, i feel its stupid to rip off on msft all the time. MSFt has given some good stuff to the industry, just agree to it. And its a big business game in the world - monopoly, take over bids etc etc etc are a part of it & are very subjective. Sun suing every damn company out of frustation is also a part of it. MSFT takes over every small company which it likes, so does IBM ( rational take over was smooth ), oracle trying to stop people soft from jd edwards etc etc ....
    So open ur eyes wide enough to understand all this. Its a part of the corporate business / practices. If MSFT can , it will try to stop SUN in any way possible. All we can do is to find our ways out to get things done, if not find alternatives.
  27. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    1. By the time i m done with my work with a browser based application , your applet will be still showing "loading ..." message. So please stop this crap of client side apps being fast.they have never been and wont be.

    >

    Depends on the application. I never said they all were faster. Some instances are. The page paradigm definitely slows browser apps down. There is much more to application development than speed.

    > 2. if u cant design ur browser based apps becoaz of a back button on the browser , then no one can help u.
    Its the way u design ur apps to make sure the back button wot create any trouble, And there are billions of web sites which are running fine WITH the back buttons.
    >
    I was saying it was a pain. Why deal with it unless you have to? And are your sure the all run fine? You call "Page expired" fine. I don't.

    >
      Also i m sure if u have ur client side app, it makes a call to ur back end every time there is a back button hi,t Thats much heavier than a cached page. So there is always a plus and minus in both ..
    >
    Not true. I only send messages when I have to. HTML has to load the whole page. Unless the page uses DHTML and that is more devopement and maintenance nightmares. I agree with the plus and minus - you are the one saying the only way is... .


    > 3. for java apps also u have to learn java and sql. Java script can be avoided completely .. and if u are worried abt LEARNING more than one language for a application , then i have noithign to say to u .. why not write ur own file system handling also instead of using a database.
    >
    Don't see how Javascript can be avoided unless you do no client side validation.
    [sigh] I am not worried about anything. I know a lot more than 4 languages. They point is that browser based applications have their own set of problems/issues.

    > 4. eclipse, db2, and all other heavy tools can be used on ur own machine, msft carrying jvm or not wont have any effect on this.
    >

    Exactly.

    > 5. about IE loading too slow - well i guess u havent worked with netscape yet :)
    >
    I have. That really isn't relevent to your or my statements.
    >


    > Howmuch ever i m a java lover and hate msft for .net shit etc, i feel its stupid to rip off on msft all the time. MSFt has given some good stuff to the industry, just agree to it. And its a big business game in the world - monopoly, take over bids etc etc etc are a part of it & are very subjective. Sun suing every damn company out of frustation is also a part of it. MSFT takes over every small company which it likes, so does IBM ( rational take over was smooth ), oracle trying to stop people soft from jd edwards etc etc ....
    >
    Finally back on topic. Sort of. I don't think MS has given us that much good stuff. Alot was other people's idea - and alot of it really isn't that good. Just mainstream. "Broad is the path that leadeth to destruction".

    > So open ur eyes wide enough to understand all this. Its a part of the corporate business / practices. If MSFT can , it will try to stop SUN in any way possible. All we can do is to find our ways out to get things done, if not find alternatives.
    >
    Why do you think my eyes aren't open? I agree. Except I believe they should be done "right".
  28. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    Correction :
    Why do you think my eyes aren't open? I agree statement about MS. Except I believe they should be done "right".
  29. It really doesnt matter ...[ Go to top ]

    1. only people like u can assume stupid options like page expiry to overocme back button issues. If u have design concepts u can avoid back button dependencies... And as u said there is a lot more to the app than speed and (i would add ) back button problems.

    2. i wont use client side validations becoz - i dont like to get into client side issues ..keep it clean on the server side. Simple applets loading creates so many troubles when it comes to common users. I have seen Swing apps having refresh issues, data filling issues etc. I have worked with java apps in the past and i kno how much it sucks. Regarding java scripts - they have their own problms - u wont understand this as its to do with browser based apps.

    3. when i asked u what will be affected by this jvm issue u said eclispse and netbeans & stuff .. and now u r agreeing with me that they ownt be ..

    4. and about IE being slow - i think its only ur perception so that why i told u abt the slowest browser in the world - netscape.

    5. about lot of other peoples idea is a myth - everything in the industry has evolved learning from past - the first whitepaper on ejb refered to Microsoft Transactions Server and CORBA for comparision all the time - do u think SUN or whoever came out with EJB just like that - no . the idea was stolen from the Microsoft Transactions server and some corba concepts. I know u wont believe it - it needs some reading - u will find it eventually.

    6. My great Prof always said - "Business in america is business". Big fish eat the small ones. Its just the same .. for us developers, we will have to tell our customers how to add on the jvm in future - thats it ..
  30. It really doesnt matter ...[ Go to top ]

    1. only people like u can assume stupid options like page expiry to overocme back button issues. If u have design concepts u can avoid back button dependencies... And as u said there is a lot more to the app than speed and (i would add ) back button problems.

    >
    You make too many assumptions based on a example. I provided a single example. If you have applications in the browser you have to deal with the back button.

    > 2. i wont use client side validations becoz - i dont like to get into client side issues ..keep it clean on the server side. Simple applets loading creates so many troubles when it comes to common users. I have seen Swing apps having refresh issues, data filling issues etc. I have worked with java apps in the past and i kno how much it sucks. Regarding java scripts - they have their own problms - u wont understand this as its to do with browser based apps.
    >
    No client side validation? Doesn't sound very user friendly to me. With a rich client I can have the same object provide validation on the client and the server. Java Apps suck for you you. For many they don't. Swing refreshing and datafilling issues? Usually missuse of the API. (That happens no matter the language). Java scripts? I mentioned Javascript and scripting langauages (ie. what is used in JSPs) but not "Java scripts".

    > 3. when i asked u what will be affected by this jvm issue u said eclispse and netbeans & stuff .. and now u r agreeing with me that they ownt be ..
    >
    No you didn't.
    Quote:
    "> how many really use client side java app ???????
               I do. Any one who uses Eclipse does. :) or Netbeans. Or ... . "


    >
    > 4. and about IE being slow - i think its only ur perception so that why i told u abt the slowest browser in the world - netscape.
    >
    You misread. I said I had something that loaded faster in Mozilla than IE - and it was a MS product itself. The other issue had nothing to do with the browser directly(didn't mention IE) but rather that the data had to be copied server-side to build the client piece.


    > 5. about lot of other peoples idea is a myth - everything in the industry has evolved learning from past - the first whitepaper on ejb refered to Microsoft Transactions Server and CORBA for comparision all the time - do u think SUN or whoever came out with EJB just like that - no . the idea was stolen from the Microsoft Transactions server and some corba concepts. I know u wont believe it - it needs some reading - u will find it eventually.
    >
    Ok. Right. EJBs were stolen from MTS. Comparison is not stealing. Have you used MTS? I have. Not the same thing. C# is a whole lot closer to Java than EJBs are to MTS.

    > 6. My great Prof always said - "Business in america is business". Big fish eat the small ones. Its just the same .. for us developers, we will have to tell our customers how to add on the jvm in future - thats it ..
    >
    Why? According to you, customers don't need the JVM. Most server-side products come with one.
  31. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    You make too many assumptions based on a example. I provided a single example. If you have applications in the browser you have to deal with the back button.
    - FYI - back button functionality for most web apps is the least worry .. i dont think u have any good design skills bbecoz u keep on worrying abt back button. And thats hwy i kno why u want a fat slow ass client app where in there is no need of a back button and whatever fucntionality u provide as a back button can be invoked thur a event listner and u can get refreshed data again.


    No client side validation? Doesn't sound very user friendly to me. With a rich client I can have the same object provide validation on the client and the server. Java Apps suck for you you. For many they don't. Swing refreshing and datafilling issues? Usually missuse of the API. (That happens no matter the language). Java scripts? I mentioned Javascript and scripting langauages (ie. what is used in JSPs) but not "Java scripts".

    user friendly or not isnt decided by a server side or client side validations. i can imagine how bad ur apps must be .. popping up message every now and then ..

    Right. EJBs were stolen from MTS. Comparison is not stealing. Have you used MTS? I have. Not the same thing. C# is a whole lot closer to Java than EJBs are to MTS.


     Your comparison of c# to java is totally syntax based, which i didnt mean for EJBs. U think very shallow. EJBS concept is all based on Msft Trans Server. The same object pooling concept, the same container concept etc. But as per a shallow comparison of urs yes they are not same as the syntax looks different.
      One more teaser for you - jsp evolved from ASP. And as per you very close. Think big if possible... U want to know who stole what here is some example
          Concept windows GUI was first created in XEROX in PARC labs.
    Mr. Jobs of Apple stole it from them and then it was stolen by MSFT from apple. so who is the stealer ??? everyone
         MSFT was a soft company not a OS level company. When MSFt was asked to build an operating system for intel computers, MSFT told intel to go to IBM.
    IBM igonred that it wont be a good idea to build an OS that time. So the contrzct came to MSFT again and they built it ( yes using some borland c++ coders. ) and DOS was released. But to some extent thats how businesses work and its ur imagination and skills to build it.

      customers dont need jvm

    When did i say that ??

    People like u are just against MSFT. doesnt matter what and why ???
  32. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    You make too many assumptions based on a example. I provided a single example. >>If you have applications in the browser you have to deal with the back button.

    >- FYI - back button functionality for most web apps is the least worry .. i >dont think u have any good design skills bbecoz u keep on worrying abt back >button. And thats hwy i kno why u want a fat slow ass client app where in there >is no need of a back button and whatever fucntionality u provide as a back >button can be invoked thur a event listner and u can get refreshed data again.
    >
    It was an EXAMPLE. NOT a worry. There was a humungous discussion on this on another thread. Doesn't sound to minor to me. But I agree. It is less worrysome thant others. So they must be real pains. (and are) :)

    >Your comparison of c# to java is totally syntax based
    >
    No it is not.

    >, which i didnt mean for EJBs.
    >
    What?

    >
     U think very shallow. EJBS concept is all based on Msft Trans Server. The same object pooling concept
    >
    MTS didn't have object pooling. And MTS is no longer it is now part of COM+

    >
    , the same container concept etc. But as per a shallow comparison of urs yes they are not same as the syntax looks different.
    >
    MTS allowed distributed transactions and pooled connections.

    > One more teaser for you - jsp evolved from ASP. And as per you very close.
    >
    I know. And probably is why JSPs are so horrid to develop and maintain (cause ASPs are).

    >
    Think big if possible... U want to know who stole what here is some example
          Concept windows GUI was first created in XEROX in PARC labs.
    Mr. Jobs of Apple stole it from them and then it was stolen by MSFT from apple. so who is the stealer ??? everyone
         MSFT was a soft company not a OS level company. When MSFt was asked to build an operating system for intel computers, MSFT told intel to go to IBM.
    IBM igonred that it wont be a good idea to build an OS that time. So the contrzct came to MSFT again and they built it ( yes using some borland c++ coders. ) and DOS was released. But to some extent thats how businesses work and its ur imagination and skills to build it.
    >
    No reason to get nasty. I know all this. What does it have to do with what I said?

    >> customers dont need jvm
    >When did i say that ??
    "I think java sucks on the client side anyway, so why bother so much. Just like COM - OCX from microsoft is kind of "old and gone", I see applets going in that direction too. So Stop using applets and stuff" ( http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=20052&article_count=31#87327 )

    >People like u are just against MSFT. doesnt matter what and why ???
    Like me? What are you talking about or refering to? I am not against Microsoft. I never said that. I provide an opposite to your "stealing" example. Nothing more nothing less. Am I happy 100% happy with MS? No. With Sun? No. With IBM? No. With my self? NO.

    >U think very shallow.
    [sigh]Your comments prove this is you. I've been trying not to get personal but you really need to learn to read. Something is getting lost in the translation. You misunderstand what I say and then say I am thinking shallow. This is not even close to the truth. Ask any person/group/company that I have worked with (and this is many) and they will back it up. Granted, I am no Cameron (yes this is a compliment).

    Over and out.
  33. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    1. MTS had object pooling. u have no clue abt it. and that was one of the basic ideas behind EJBs also.

    2. whats MTS state right now doesnt matter, it was good sometime back. Just like java applets

    3. how much ever u try to dfefend - u seem to be scared of web based apps .. specially back button

    4. c# compilation, distribution, integration with biz talk server etc is all different from what java does. The syntax is very similar. And thats what u compared .. u dont know the details u just see it from the top ..

    5. U talked abt C# stealing java stuff from java thats why i gave u some history lesson abt who stole what .. u need to work atleast 10 more years in the industry to really make any comment on who stole what ...

    6. i m not getting personal .. its a group / sentiment of some people in java community which talks baseless and just want trash MSFt or anyone against SUN. And thats what i m talking abt, I dont need to tagrget u personnaly. Its that wrong sentiment which needs to be corrected. ( sigh :( i cant i guess )

    7. Regarding talking to ur friends and ex - friends - i dont want to . I got a very good idea about u in this thread :).

    Happy Client side coding ( for years to come )
  34. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    Oh yeah - forgot to tell u one more thing ...
    linux is "stolen" ( using ur words) from unix and windows combination . :)
  35. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    1. MTS had object pooling. u have no clue abt it. and that was one of the basic ideas behind EJBs also.

    >

    Quote from the link below:
    "After deactivating an instance, MTS calls CanBePooled() to see if the instance can be placed in a pool of objects standing ready for use by the next client request. At least that’s what would happen if MTS 2.0 supported object pooling. Today MTS doesn’t provide support for object pooling and the CanBePooled() method is never called. With the release of COM+, object pooling will be supported. The big question, then, is should your components support pooling?"

    http://archive.devx.com/free/mgznarch/vcdj/1999/febmag99/commts2.asp
     
    > 2. whats MTS state right now doesnt matter, it was good sometime back. Just like java applets
    >
    See the above link as to why the current state of MTS does matter. And it does matter to current Microsoft tools.

    > 3. how much ever u try to dfefend - u seem to be scared of web based apps .. specially back button
    >
    Acknowleding that something is painful does not admit or denote fear (Neither does pointing out that something is not as easy as it appears). Are you scared of rich clients? I am not scared of browser based apps (all my apps are "web based"). I was only stating issues that prove browser-based apps are not without pitfalls, problems and issues.

    > 4. c# compilation, distribution, integration with biz talk server etc is all different from what java does. The syntax is very similar. And thats what u compared .. u dont know the details u just see it from the top ..
    >
    "And thats what u compared" It is? How do you know? All I said was "Ok. Right. EJBs were stolen from MTS. Comparison is not stealing. Have you used MTS? I have. Not the same thing. C# is a whole lot closer to Java than EJBs are to MTS." The only time I used the word was to repeat you.

    "integration with biz talk server etc". Sure there are differences. I didn't say they were an exact much. Of course most of the differences you are refering to are .Net not C#.

    > 5. U talked abt C# stealing java stuff from java thats why i gave u some history lesson abt who stole what .. u need to work atleast 10 more years in the industry to really make any comment on who stole what ...
    >
    See the above for the "stealing" comment. No one needs to have worked a single day in the industry to know history. And yes I do know history.

    > 6. i m not getting personal .. its a group / sentiment of some people in java community which talks baseless and just want trash MSFt or anyone against SUN. And thats what i m talking abt, I dont need to tagrget u personnaly. Its that wrong sentiment which needs to be corrected. ( sigh :( i cant i guess )
    >
    I suggest you re-read your comments. I could repeat all things said about me personally - but I won't.

    > 7. Regarding talking to ur friends and ex - friends - i dont want to . I got a very good idea about u in this thread :).
    >
    I didn't mention friends at all. Purposefully.

    > Happy Client side coding ( for years to come )
    And browser based. I do both successfully. And I understand the limitations of both.
  36. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    there u are - i thought u left me alone :)
    1. MTS object pooling - When i used it i guess around 1997, it supported object pooling. But later on i left using it and moved on to EJBs. so when u say MTS doesnt support object pooling - u r totally wrong. Now in mid 2003 if it doesnt, i dont care. Programming principles, whole scenarioa has changed in last 6 years. The point was
    a. ejbs are stolen idea from MTS - which i m right and
    b. mts supported object pooling - which i m right again ...

    2. u said c# is tolen from java and thats why i told u how different it is. Besides syntax, there is no match. But in terms of EJBs and MTS cmparison, well, u can compare a hell lot of things in terms of basic concept of obejct pooling, container, object creating - destroying etc etc etc . and ofcourse SUN ikmproved on tha MTS idea. But when u say c# is close to java than ejb to MTS - i think u cant be stupider than that. this shows ur lack of knowledge abt both. U seem to be very new to programming - reminds me of some fresh graduated punks...

    3. Regarding history lesson, i guess u didnt know anything, otherwise u wouldnt have made a comment of c# to java comparison. so please re - read the hostory on who stole what
    4. u didnt mention friends at all - i agree. I thought people whom u worked with in the past would be ur friends. Thats how its mostly in real nice world. But as i said before, given ur thoughts and approach, i m sure u wont be in a position to call them friends. ( or they wont refer to u as a friend but just a co worker ). I feel sorry for u ..
    5. developing rich client apps- its a field i left long time back .Its generally done by low experience people. It doesnt need much brain to develop thick slow ass client apps. U have whole control of what all user can do .. no need to maintain session etc .. most of the time - everything is connected all the time end to end ... so if u r proud to be a rich client developer - well u r a un experienced person then .. come to real world of internet and have some million hits a day on ur server and then u will know how every small detail can screw ur performance .. but u r far away from all that .. so be happy .. when u get some good knowledge and experience, i m sure ur MANAGER will give u a chance.







    3.
  37. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    After reading this, I feel like I've been grotted. ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  38. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    After reading this, I feel like I've been grotted. ;-)

    >
    > Peace,
    >
    > Cameron Purdy
    > Tangosol, Inc.
    > Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!


    Sorry for continuing on with this. I don't care to be "called" an idiot (at least that word wasn't used). But I guess no matter what I say or what documentation I put forth nothing will change his thinking.
  39. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    Hi Mark,

    I just figured if the dude wants to disagree, that's fine, but he could at least write intelligibly (if not intelligently), so that I don't have to go to the Rosetta stone to understand WTF he's saying. Instead of using English, he saves a couple of bytes here and there by mis-spleling everything, and his comments read like they were typed by a drunk cat playing on a keyboard. It's so hard to read, I can't even tell if he's trying to insult you.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  40. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    Hi Mark,

    >
    > I just figured if the dude wants to disagree, that's fine, but he could at least write intelligibly (if not intelligently), so that I don't have to go to the Rosetta stone to understand WTF he's saying. Instead of using English, he saves a couple of bytes here and there by mis-spleling everything, and his comments read like they were typed by a drunk cat playing on a keyboard. It's so hard to read, I can't even tell if he's trying to insult you.
    >

    I would be fine with disagreement. I'm not fine with calling my intelligence and abilities into question. Actually there was no question that he was.

    I couldn't tell if he was trying to insult me either - but he was.

    Well, better get back to work before Raffi reports me. :)
  41. It's amusing to read all the crap over which you guys fight. It's even more amusing to realize that most of you would probably get disciplined at work if they found out how much time you spend on this message board, hah! Do you guys ever work? :-) I've read some pretty rediculous posts at this place, but arguing over web-based apps and the use of the 'Back' button, well, I must say that it definitely is a candidate for Bill O'Reilly's "Most Rediculous Item of the Day."

    I actually agree with sean in that you can dog MS all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of computer users on this planet use their OS and apps because they are pretty good, even though they crash every now and then, but as long as you computer doesn't begin emitting smoke from the floppy drive, then you should be fine.

    Raffi
  42. It's amusing to read all the crap over which you guys fight. It's even more amusing to realize that most of you would probably get disciplined at work if they found out how much time you spend on this message board, hah! Do you guys ever work? :-) I've read some pretty rediculous posts at this place, but arguing over web-based apps and the use of the 'Back' button, well, I must say that it definitely is a candidate for Bill O'Reilly's "Most Rediculous Item of the Day."

    >
    Hmmm. You had time to read and comment. :) After my first comment I basically was responding to insults and correcting what he thought I said. He still can't get it right. BTW, don't assume everyone works 9-5. And it doesn't take long to cut-and-paste. Wouldn't you be upset if someone said you were or infered that you were an idiot with zero proof. I should have just let it ride. I knew better ( http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/meanings/280300.html )

    > I actually agree with sean in that you can dog MS all you want,
    >
    I didn't dog MS at all. Saying something compares to something else isn't dogging.

    >
     but the fact of the matter is that the majority of computer users on this planet use their OS and apps because they are pretty good, even though they crash every now and then, but as long as you computer doesn't begin emitting smoke from the floppy drive, then you should be fine.
    >

    Have to disagree. Most people use Windows(I assume that is the OS you are refering to) because of marketing (FUD) and because that is all they can get preloaded at Best Buy. That is not because it is the best OS or even pretty good. And when a company can cost another a bunch of money in licensing and EULA requirements - I don't consider that fine. (This might be MS - it might not, so I am not dogging MS)
  43. I'm just messin' around, relax :-P[ Go to top ]

    ##
    Hmmm. You had time to read and comment
    ##

    Nahhh, I just browsed through it very quickly, and realized that it was written by unscrupulous souls not worth their weight in sh$t.(all in good humor, of course :-))

    ##
    After my first comment I basically was responding to insults and correcting what he thought I said. He still can't get it right
    ##

    Thanks for backing up my claim because that's exacly what a school girl sissy would do :-P. But I know what you mean. That dude sean needs a spell checker or some sh$t; is he writing a special form of short hand? :-P


    Relax, Mark, I'm just messin around and having some fun, so don't take it offensively. I read this board all the time, but I usually don't post because you guys begin to ramble a bit too much and the original topic seems to get lost rather quickly, so it's hard to get in on the discussion, but I simply could not resist this one! hahahaha,

    catch ya later,

    Raffi
  44. I'm just messin' around, relax :-P[ Go to top ]

    "Relax, Mark, I'm just messin around and having some fun, so don't take it offensively"

    Gotcha. I was pretty relaxed with what you said. ( see my :) after my comment? )

    A reading class would help in addition to a spell checker.


    Pull your hair, scratch your eyes and kick you later then! (how school girls fight) ;)

    Mark
  45. I'm NOT just messin' around[ Go to top ]

    Well i know what u were upto. U tend to agree and still dis agree.
    Almost every statement you made contradicts itself. Re read ur comments and you will see. Or may be i m drunk ( as per CP) that I find you always dis agreeing with your self. Talking abt personal offneces, you started it about taking it to your "ex - collegues".
  46. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

         MSFT was a soft company not a OS level company.

    >When MSFt was asked to build an operating system for intel computers,
    >MSFT told intel to go to IBM.
    > IBM igonred that it wont be a good idea to build an OS that time.
    > So the contrzct came to MSFT again and they built it
    >( yes using some borland c++ coders. ) and DOS was released.
      One thing is true, you should refresh your computer history leassons ;-)
  47. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    who r u to tell me that ?? I have read it alreayd , see a lot of that happening.
    U read it urself, read the evolutions of OS and u would know the truth.
  48. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    who r u to tell me that ?? I have read it alreayd ,

    >see a lot of that happening.
    > U read it urself, read the evolutions of OS and u would know the truth.
     Intel didn't anything to do with MS-DOS, and MS didn't build it, they bought it.

     Just typed "the story of MS DOS" on google and went to
      http://www.zip.com.au/~guyd/smash_ms/dl/msdos.htm

    <quote>
    In late 1980 IBM wanted to produce its own line personal computers. They needed an operating system for it. IBM approached Bill Gates, who suggested they talk to Gary Kildall of Digital Research for a copy of his CP/M for 16 bit computers. Through an odd twist of fate, which no one is exactly sure of, IBM never got in touch with Mr. Kildall. So Bill Gates contacted Tim Patterson of Seattle Computer Products and purchased a copy of his 86-DOS (previously QDOS - Quick and Dirty Operating System) for $50,000.
    Microsoft then made a deal with IBM to provide DOS with their new line of PCs. In August 1981 IBM introduced their new line of microcomputers sporting Microsoft's DOS.
    </quote>
  49. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    so 1. MSFT didnt jump on to OS ..
    2. they suggested someone else to IBM
    3. IBM got back to MSFT and then MSFT didnt leave the chance ( any smart person wont leave a 2nd chance to make it big )...
    4. U missed on to the whole XEROX PARC labs and apple computers story .. u would know where APPLE emerged from ..
  50. so u also agree with me[ Go to top ]

    Forgot to mention :
       Gary Kildall of Digital Research was a "BIG headed" guy and sent a secretary to deal with IBM which IBM thought was insulting .. so they didnt continue with Gary Kildall of Digital Research. Instead they came back to MSFT.
     

    As usual u wont believe me -- find out more u will know ....
  51. My company which, is based in Nigeria, has just released a smart card application ( called CaféCard, sorry no web link yet) for Internet Cafés. Not a new idea but we could only achieve what we wanted with Java in the amount of time we had - less than six months. Note that non of us had any previous experience programming smart cards.
    Now, the application has a "fat" client - Java, OpenCard - and a web-based interface for application and user management - Servlet, JSPs, Javascript, etc. (Tomcat rocks!). This is Java, end-to-end! By the way, the client performs really well and we and our customers are happy - end of story.

    Paul K.
  52. Does this even matter?[ Go to top ]

    I’m not sure this matters as much as it did though not for the same reason as you. Loads of companies use client-side Java both applets and full-client product. For instance Attachmate(their Extra Terminal Emulator is available as a Java applet and I use regularly in UK banking apps), BusinessObjects (DataIntegrator is a fill client side application, WebIntelligence uses applets), Candle (the front ends for their Omegamon products for example)…. The thing is that will Dell and HP agreeing to add Sun’s JVM to their machines by default other smaller manufacturers are likely to follow.

    As an aside I thought Apple used their own JVM?
  53. Ruling Widely Misinterpreted[ Go to top ]

    I've been stunned about how poorly the news media covered this ruling. I've only seen ONE story (out of dozens) that observed that this is not the end of the story for M$ distributing Java (beyond the legalese that every story includes and few readers or writers seem to understand).

    The only thing that was overturned was a PRELIMINARY injunction - i.e. - that the punishment had to be started now, even if the final result doesn't include the punishment. Yes, it will likely take two more years, but I think it is likely that the final ruling will force M$ to distribute Java with Windows. The only thing Sun didn't prove was that if Java isn't distributed NOW it would cause irreparable harm - though on the face of it, how could that NOT be true?
  54. my client side app[ Go to top ]

    I'm undecided on the ethics of forcing MS to bundle the JVM, but I was certainly hoping it would happen.

    I've been developing a client side app for use by energy consultants on site-visits. It uses a Swing interface, and is deployed by Java Web Start. At present it lets the user open and save files of the data they collect, and it processes it client-side to generate a report. In the future we plan to have the saved file being sent up for server-side databasing.

    This type of application model couldn't work on a web-app, cos it's essential that the user can use the application when offline (on a site-visit).

    It's by no means perfect yet, but Java Web Start is really good for easily deploying the app, allowing the user to easily install it, and for providing updates. However, actually getting the software out to users becomes more difficult when they haven't got the JVM. Some of them have only got unreliable dial-up connections, so downloading the JVM can be something of a mission. Plus we're not talking about the most computer-literate client base...

    So anyway, all I'm really saying is that from my perspective it would be very good if some day it could be assumed that most people had an up to date copy of the JVM. I think it's now going to be 1.5 that's going to include the auto-update facility - it slipped on 1.4.2. If that was to be shipped with every copy of windows it'd be a great step towards this. Now I'm hoping that other OEMs follow HP and Dell by including the JVM in new computers.