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News: Viva - Open Source Java Site Goes Live

  1. Viva - Open Source Java Site Goes Live (72 messages)

    Viva - a site dedicated to open source Java - is now live.

    Viva aims to give you a quick overview of the state of open source Java and uncover and clarify Sun's open source Java stand.

    For now the Viva site includes:

    * a directory listing open source Java runtimes, compilers, core libraries, test suites, FAQs, UI toolkits and more

    * another directory listing dozens of open source Java runtimes from the research community

    * a link directory about open source basics and about Sun's official open source PR propaganda

    * a call to action to pressure Sun to open source the Java core and to help secure the future of Java as an open royality-free standard

    * more to come

    Full story @ http://viva.sourceforge.net

    Comments? Suggestions?

    Threaded Messages (72)

  2. I dont want to end up in a hell of different java versions / flavors and have a pain of debugging why one JAVA program works here and not there...
    Please keep this open source process in a limit .. dont push it ..
  3. I dont want to end up in a hell of different java versions / flavors and have a

    > pain of debugging why one JAVA program works here and not there...
    > Please keep this open source process in a limit .. dont push it ..

    Actually, open sourcing java (especially under an Apache-style license) would reduce these problems since it would allow Mozilla to bundle Java in it's GRE. Backwards compatibility is far more important in the open source world than the closed source world. For instance, Apache 1.x stayed with the old single-thread/single-stream architecture for years longer than it should because of backwards compatibility. When it finally decided to break free from the old architecture and break compatibility with multi-threaded-multi-streaming Apache 2.x, Apache 1.x still continued development because there are still a lot of people who depend on the old architecture. Just because something is old and not as advanced, doesn't mean that people doesn't want it any more. Linux continues to develop the kernels for the 2.0.x (ancient version -- only critical bug fixes happen), 2.2.x (previous version -- only bug fixes and device drivers are changed), 2.4.x (current version -- backwards compatilibly changed, changes, and bug fixes are allowed), and the 2.5.x branch (where backwards compatibility is not guarenteed but you have access to the latest features). Why so many streams? Simply because different people have different backwards compatibility needs.

    If you think the Linux and Apache examples proves your point, keep in mind that some people use JSF (which hasn't been finalized yet) in production servers, even though it will likely change. They care more about features than compatibility. But that's a small percentage of people. The rest of us would rather wait for the standard.


    If Java were open source, Sun doesn't have to give up control. It could become the standards body -- like the open group. The Open Group only certifies an OS as being Unix[TM] if it passes certain compatibility tests and the sponsor guarentees that if it were to accidentally break compatibility, it has to become compatible again within a certain period of time (See http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/qna/0,289202,sid39_gci915657,00.html).


    Using this model, only Sun certified Java[TM] can call itself Java. It would have to call itself J*va or Cafe or Moca or Jakarta or something else and it couldn't mislead people into thinking that it passed the compliance tests. The most it could say is that they take compliance seriously. That's why Tomcat is so popular. It takes J2EE compatibility seriously.


    What benefits would Sun gain by open sourcing Java? For one thing it could reduce it's development costs (which take away money from Sun) and increase its certification (which gives Sun money). If it licensed Java under a dual open source/sun shared source licence (similar to the way TrollTech licences Qt and MySQL AB licenses MySQL and SleeyCat Software licenses the Berkeley database), it could also license Java for proprietary use (which gives Sun money). Open source project tend to get more word of mouth advertising (Sun won't have to spend as much on advertising), and tend to adapt to more unusual environments that are not normally profitable to enter. (For instance, Linux was ported to the IBM mainframe because someone saw it as a challenge. It sounded like a joke, but that joke is making IBM a lot of money.) This essentially increase the markets where Java will be used, which would increase Sun's certification and proprietary licensing revenue.

    It's win-win for everyone.
  4. IBM: Set Java Free[ Go to top ]

    As an add-on ZDNet run a special report series last summer titled "IBM: Set Java Free". It offers great insight why only an open royality-free Java core will avoid another fork such as the thriving Common Language Runtime (CLR) with two major open-source backers, that is, Mono and Portable.Net. IBM's Eclipse initiative was just a starter. Expect more to come.

    Read up on the "IBM: Set Java Free" series @ http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/filters/specialreport/0,14622,6023433,00.html
  5. Excellent.

    If Sun goes away (I hope soon), Java lives on, even better.

    .V
  6. I think the whole purpose of the site is well-intentioned, but the design and colors on the site? Too much red in there!
  7. Viva Color Theme[ Go to top ]

    but the design and colors on the site? Too much red in there!


    Thanks for letting me know. I will look for a lighter shade of red that is easier on the eyes.
  8. unnecessary belligerence[ Go to top ]

    From the website entry about log4j:

    "Open-Source Logging Toolkit; boycott the Java 1.4 java.util.logging package and use the better log4j package instead "

    Why? I don't see the need to turn what you use for logging into a "boycott" issue. I can see boycotting companies that violate the human rights of their workers, but boycott an api? How will java.util.logger know it's being boycotted? Am I boycotting log4j when I don't use it. Am I boycotting hibernate when I use iBatis or vice versa? This is absurd.

    I enjoy open source java and as the lone developer at my company I see vast benefits from the frameworks and apis I use from jakarta, open symphony, and many others. I, however, do not feel some inherent moral superiority or zeal because I am not paying for the software. I feel grateful and appreciative. I feel the same gratefulness toward and appreciation for the code and libraries I use from Sun.

    Is it possible to just have some descriptions and links to open source software without the constant refrains of "two legs bad, four legs good"?
  9. Avoiding Vendor Lock-In[ Go to top ]

    <amir>
    From the website entry about log4j:

    "Open-Source Logging Toolkit; boycott the Java 1.4 java.util.logging package and use the better log4j package instead "

    Why? I don't see the need to turn what you use for logging into a "boycott" issue. I can see boycotting companies that violate the human rights of their workers, but boycott an api? How will java.util.logger know it's being boycotted? Am I boycotting log4j when I don't use it.
    </amir>

    If you use log4j you don't get locked into another me-too closed-source core Sun API. What course of action do you suggest for ensuring an open royality-free Java core?

    Sun's strategy evidently is to put ever more APIs into the core to kill off any open-source competition. This is basically a replay of Microsoft's Windows bundling strategy. To stop Sun's madness just say no to me-too closed-source core Sun APIs and stick with better open-source alternatives such as log4j, for example.
  10. Vendor Lock-In?[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps I'm confused, can you please explain to me how using log4j over 1.4 logging is "avoiding vendor lockin"? This is equivalent to saying that you should use an open source data structures implementation rather than the java.util package to "avoid vendor lock in." You aren't locked into any vendor any more than you already are by choosing 1.4 logging over log4j. You're already using Java, it happens to have a logging API, if you find it suits your needs better than, or as good as, log4j, then use it.

    And (again, perhaps I am confused) exactly what type of revenue is "open-source competition" taking from Sun? log4j isn't competing with Sun (neither is the Jakarta project for that matter). I hardly think Sun wants to "kill off any open-source competition" by putting "ever more APIs into the core". Part of the reason Java has been so successful is because of its relatively open nature (please note "relatively"). I think Sun is well aware how much value open projects such as Struts, Castor and Tomcat bring to the Java language. In the specific case of log4j versus 1.4 logging, there was a disagreement between the JCP expert group and the log4j designers as to exactly how the "official" Java logging API should be designed and operate. In the end, Java logging deviated from the design of log4j (which in my humble personal opinion, was an unfortunate choice, but that's really irrelavent). I think Sun's intention was to add a very useful and fundamental API to Java, not to kill off log4j.

    And what exactly is "Sun's madness"? While I will not argue with you about whether or not JBoss should be allowed to certify, or whether the entire Java umbrella of APIs and products should be put into the hands of a standards group or open sourced completely, I ask you just exactly how is Sun behaving madly? (In the case of JBoss, I think there is an obvious conflict of business interest, but Sun is after all a business, and the open sourcing of Java could be a good or bad thing, and I don't think we'd ever really know until well after it was done.)

    So what exactly are you implying Sun gains by attempting to "kill off" the open log4j API?
  11. Perhaps I'm confused, can you please explain to me how using log4j

    > over 1.4 logging is "avoiding vendor lockin"?

      Again, the point is that Sun controls the core Java APIs like Microsoft controls the core Windows APIs.

      log4j on the other hand is an open royality-free standard and thus avoids vendor lock-in and puts you and not Sun in control.

    > So what exactly are you implying Sun gains by attempting to "kill off"
    > the open log4j API?

      Sun gains control over the core Java APIs by replacing open royality-free standards such as log4j with proprietary "pseudo standards" that require licensing fees and that limit your redistributions rights and much more.

      - Gerald
  12. Enough conspiracy theories[ Go to top ]

    Gerald:
    log4j on the other hand is an open royality-free standard and thus avoids vendor lock-in and puts you and not Sun in control.


    And what is next? Boycotting java.util.HashMap? Or java.io.File?

    Do you realize that if everybody did this, it would simple lead to the obliteration of the Java platform and reduce it to a cute language with no API's?

    Come on, that's ridiculous now.

    Your conspiracy theories are growing on me, I am beginning to think you are paid by Microsoft to undermine Java...

    <sigh>

    --
    Cedric
    http://beust.com/weblog
  13. Operation Java Freedom[ Go to top ]

    log4j on the other hand is an open royality-free standard and thus avoids

    >> vendor lock-in and puts you and not Sun in control.

    > And what is next? Boycotting java.util.HashMap? Or java.io.File?

      Well, I've written up the next steps in the web page titled "Take Action Now - Free Java Now Campaign".

      If I may quote the highlights:

      * Boycott Swing
      * Boycott NetBeans
      * Boycott Web Start
      * Boycott the Java Cartel Process (JCP)
      * Boycott Java Server Faces (JSF)
      * Boycott Java.Net

      and for a change

      * Embrace Scripting Languages for Java
      * Embrace next-gen XML Markup Languages for rich UIs

    > Your conspiracy theories are growing on me, I am beginning to think you are
    > paid by Microsoft to undermine Java...

      I can assure you I'm not paid by Microsoft. If you need some evidence may I invite you to check out my "Rich Clients, Rich Browsers, Rich Portals" talk slides. Take the "Inside Redhell: What's the Politburo up to?" slide for an example. Or check out some of my XUL News Wire stories for further evidence.

      Anyway, my point is that more and more Sun acts like a Microsoft wannabe playing the vendor lock-in and monopoly game and its time to put pressure on Sun to open-source the Java core to help secure the future of Java as an open royality-free standard otherwise the Unix war will repeat itself this time around with a dozen of Java forks.

      - Gerald
  14. Operation Java Sanity[ Go to top ]

    Gerald,

    Java commercial products without Java open source would get slaughtered by Microsoft. Java open source doesn't exist in a vacuum either though. This economy is dependent on a long-term balance and -- to some extent -- symbiosis. While open source is killing some commercial software companies (which were typically the ones without a viable business or that didn't move forward), it's also birthing new ones.

    A tirade on the benefits of open source purity is as idiotic as the proposition that open source is evil because it's like communism (i.e. some of the Microsoft missives on the subject.)

    What Linux and Apache and JBoss and Tomcat (for example) have done is increased the size of our market by tenfold or even one-hundred-fold. While they may take 50% or 80% of the sales that BEA and IBM would have gotten, the smaller percentage of a larger market is both better and more healthy. Microsoft gets 100% of the revenues in its world. It's killed off its own ecosystem. Talk about a "service economy". That's why Java is winning, not because of some technical elegance or lack of delegates or cross platform mumbo-jumbo. It's because we live in a world that can sustain a healthy ecosystem, and that's always going to out-grow the central planning committee / monopoly / dictatorship / whatever in the end.

    Sun (and BEA and Oracle and IBM and ...) is part of this healthy ecosystem, even if they do stupid things. Get over your irrational fear of them, and find ways to engage them constructively.

    And Vic, when it comes to Sun, you're worse than TQ talking about BEA. Get over it. What terrible things did they do to you?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  15. Boycott Viva[ Go to top ]

    Well put Cameron/Cedric and others.

    Well, it's obvious from discussions here that Viva is not worth going to, has an ugly site, is rather biased and uses inexplicable logic. Why not simply boycott Viva...
  16. Re: Boycott Viva[ Go to top ]

    Why not simply boycott Viva...


    Because there's the chance to talk Gerald into changing the site to a OSS-Java Portal, that would be a gain for both OSS and Java (and the rest of the world ;-) ) alike.

    Obviously, there are at least some pros for those who don't care that much of the differences between ClosedS, SharedS and OpenS-Java API's and VMs: I read s.t. about some OSS Java projects I never heard of before. Regrettably, I didn't have the time so far to read through the linked pages and therefore still hope, someone writes more than a sentence or two about those projects on the link page...

    Markus
  17. Hehehe... quite hilarious (not to say hypocrite)

    The footer of viva's site you'll find this:

     Copyright © 2003 Gerald Bauer

    This guy is just a Rick Ross wannabe.

    Is there a "mark all post from this user noisy" option somewhere on theserverside? I couldn't find it...
  18. Operation Java Sanity[ Go to top ]

    "Microsoft gets 100% of the revenues in its world."


    Huh? There are lots of things (money making things) that run on MS OSs that do not make money for MS. Put down that crack pipe.
  19. Cameron: Microsoft gets 100% of the revenues in its world.

    Sartoris: Huh? There are lots of things (money making things) that run on MS OSs that do not make money for MS. Put down that crack pipe.

    You're right. It's not 100%. However, the number can be easily estimated. Microsoft revenue is US$32MMM. The next largest company in that market is Symantec, with revenue of US$1.4MMM, some of which comes from outside of the Microsoft market. Other notables include Citrix, which has revenues just over a half billion, some of which are outside of the Microsoft market. In other words, there's basically only one statistically significant "supplier" (what is called a "horizontal market" supplier) in the entire Microsoft economy, and just about everyone else in that market exists to provide services for the customers of that supplier, kind of like having the privilege of working at McDonalds in the financial district of New York. No thank you! Not a lot of people (outside of Microsoft) find this arrangement attractive, which is the same thing that happened to IBM in the 80s. Microsoft is still powerful and successful and profitable, but the overwhelming majority of the market has already decided that Microsoft does not present a future worth investing in.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  20. "Microsoft gets 100% of the revenues in its world. "

    I guess I'm not getting your definition of revenues.
    Certainly if you add up all the sales revenue for software that runs on MS OSs
    and subtract all the MS revenues for software that runs on MS OSs and you will come up with a large number.

    "Microsoft is still powerful and successful and profitable, but the overwhelming majority of the market has already decided that Microsoft does not present a future worth investing in."

    I don't get that either. Practically every desktop in the world in homes and in businesses use MS OSs. Nothing I've seen points to a trend away from this, either.
  21. Just another article[ Go to top ]

    Here is something I found on java.net...

    http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/202
  22. Article[ Go to top ]

    Thanks for the article.

    <quote from article>
    ... and one of them is the considerable importance of maintaining compatability across releases for all developers and all projects. There are three million (and growing) developers that depend on Java, and the Java platform is itself growing and evolving. It would not be possible to ensure that this growth and evolution was realized in Java implementations that were mutually compatible and backwards compatible with previous versions by relying on the bottom up guiding force of social and commerical relationships within the developer community ...
    </quote from article>

    This is a GUK! article ;-) How many Java developers from those three million are able (or willing) to write the JVM + base libs? How many types of Apache Webserver are available? Do we have incompatibilties in Apache Webserver? The point is that from those three milion Java developers most of them are application developers. That's why the development of Open Source JVM is not that fast...

    Anyway, IMO, if Java would be forked, all the Java app. developers would choose the best and the most spreaded JDK. This can be still Sun JDK. And if you see the history of Linux, you also have many different distributions of Linux but at the end they also try to unite them (see Linux United project). As the history always tells us: divide -> unite -> divide -> unite -> ...

    Regards,
    Lofi.
  23. Sartoris: I guess I'm not getting your definition of revenues. Certainly if you add up all the sales revenue for software that runs on MS OSs and subtract all the MS revenues for software that runs on MS OSs and you will come up with a large number.

    Java runs on Microsoft OS's, so technically I'm sure you're right.

    However, one company owns the lion's share of the sales of software in that market. If Microsoft sells 20 times the amount of the next largest software company in the market, and it goes downhill rapidly from there, it tells you something about that particular market: it's not healthy.

    Cameron: Microsoft is still powerful and successful and profitable, but the overwhelming majority of the market has already decided that Microsoft does not present a future worth investing in.

    Sartois: I don't get that either. Practically every desktop in the world in homes and in businesses use MS OSs. Nothing I've seen points to a trend away from this, either.

    It's the difference between coordinates, velocity and acceleration. What people already have and use can be represented by coordinates. Most big companies use IBM mainframes, for example. Almost all desktops/notebooks (including the one I'm typing on) run Microsoft Windows. What people are buying is represented by velocity. For example, how many copies of Windows is Microsoft selling per quarter. How many servers are getting Linux put on them each quarter. Acceleration indicates changes in those buying trends.

    Similarly, in terms of mindshare, coordinates show us what software already exists, velocity shows us what software is being invested in, and acceleration shows us where the research and development is headed, which is a good predictor for what will be the "next big thing".

    In both of these areas, Microsoft is showing negative acceleration. Just like IBM in the late 80s was still potent and profitable, but basically irrelevant from a strategic perspective.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  24. Acceleration and more[ Go to top ]

    Cameron:
    In both of these areas, Microsoft is showing negative acceleration. Just like IBM in the late 80s was still potent and profitable, but basically irrelevant from a strategic perspective.


    I was with you until this point, but now you lost me. How do you connect your neat but confusing definitions to this last paragraph? If you define acceleration as "a change in those trends" (meaning: people buying something else than Microsoft), then by definition, Microsoft "shows negative acceleration".

    Doesn't make an ounce of sense to me.

    If the current revenues and numbers of desktops and software sold are any indication, the future for Microsoft is as bright as it ever was.

    But hey, it doesn't mean you're wrong since technically, you can deduce anything you want from a false premise (if I recall my first-order logic correctly :-)).

    --
    Cedric
    http://beust.com/weblog

    By the way, did you know that the derivative of acceleration has a name? I'll let you look it up
  25. Acceleration and more[ Go to top ]

    Cameron: In both of these areas, Microsoft is showing negative acceleration. Just like IBM in the late 80s was still potent and profitable, but basically irrelevant from a strategic perspective.

    Cedric: I was with you until this point, but now you lost me. How do you connect your neat but confusing definitions to this last paragraph? If you define acceleration as "a change in those trends" (meaning: people buying something else than Microsoft), then by definition, Microsoft "shows negative acceleration". Doesn't make an ounce of sense to me. If the current revenues and numbers of desktops and software sold are any indication, the future for Microsoft is as bright as it ever was.

    IBM's revenues are two and a half what Microsoft's are, so is IBM two and a half times as strategic? How about when Microsoft's revenues were a fifth of their current size and IBM's revenues were about the same as today's. If you could have seen into the future, you would have deduced (correctly) that Microsoft was relevant from a strategic perspective, would thus have more investment in its strategy, and would thus increase its revenues, right?

    Well, almost right. Microsoft was significantly more a strategic investment (from the point of view of the technology consumer) for most of the 90s. However, revenue delta in and of itself is not a good indicator. You also have to look at market share and changes in market share. Microsoft is actually seeing growing revenues now and -- for the first time in some markets -- shrinking market share. That's because they are upping their prices (aka rewriting their license programs) faster than they are losing market share. So while they have become less strategically relevant, that isn't stopping them from expanding their revenues.

    Cedric: By the way, did you know that the derivative of acceleration has a name? I'll let you look it up

    Look it up? Isn't it called "the jerk"? (Some little bird told me that.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  26. Boycott Netbeans?[ Go to top ]

    What the hell is your problem?

    The fact that Netbeans uses Swing does not bean that you should boycott it. I use it all the time. As of version 3.5, it's a kick ass IDE, IMHO, better than eclipse.

    Correct me if I'm wrong...but did'nt Sun buy the NetBeans IDE, and then open source it? Why the hell do you want to boycott it?

    Get a grip bud...although I agree with you (somewhat), you need to chill it down a bit or people are going to think you're an idiot.

    Mike
  27. Correct me if I'm wrong...but did'nt Sun buy the NetBeans IDE, and then open

    > source it? Why the hell do you want to boycott it?

      Mike, what's your plan to put pressure on Sun to get the Java core open-sourced or turned into a open royality-free standard so that you can ship it worryfree with any Linux distro without paying Sun any licensing fees?

      I think that boycotting NetBeans sends the right message to Sun. Covering up the closed-source core Java APIs with open-source freebies such as NetBeans won't fool the world.

      - Gerald
  28. NetBeans is a Trojan Horse[ Go to top ]

    I'm an avid Open Source supporter and I don't care much for Netbeans, but let's get serious. Sun has the right to license Java however it chooses.

    Boycotting Netbeans does *nothing* to encourage Sun to open source Java. Do you want to know what will? Make open source Java competitive with Sun. That's how JBoss became what it is today. They didn't just wine about how BEA, SunOne server, and Websphere are expensive. They did something about it by competing. Linux was also born from the same spirit.

    Sites like Viva are crucial for this to happen. What I would love to see is for someone to create an open source Java distribution (like Cygwin/XFree in an open source C++/Unix distribution for Windows). When you download this OOJ distribution, Eclipse (and SWT), JBoss, Tomcat, Apache, Ant, gcj, Mauve, JUnit, and every other key open source technology will be instantly available, configured, and well integrated. All necessary open source plugins and documentation will be included. Such an distribution could go eventually go head to head with SunOne and win.

    Porting the SWT to the AWT would also be another important step. The SWT is nicer to work with than the AWT, but some people object to it because it requires native methods. No problem, just port it to the AWT. If a native implementation of the SWT exists, that will be used, but otherwise the AWT will be used, thus guarenteeing portability. Without this "non 100% Java pure" objection in the way, the SWT would become more popular among open source Java projects and some commercial companies who like the portability of Java but long for native widgets.


    BTW, the following links should be included in the Viva site:
       http://sources.redhat.com/rhug/index.html
       http://klomp.org/mark/gij_eclipse/
  29. <robert>
    Boycotting Netbeans does *nothing* to encourage Sun to open source Java. Do you want to know what will? Make open source Java competitive with Sun. That's how JBoss became what it is today. They didn't just wine about how BEA, SunOne server, and Websphere are expensive. They did something about it by competing. Linux was also born from the same spirit.
    </robert>

    I invite you to read the full call to action. If I may quote: Boycott Sun's NetBeans IDE (build on purpose on the closed-source Swing UI toolkit) and use IDEs build on open-source UI toolkits instead. Better choices for a brighter tomorrow: * Eclipse

    I guess if everyone leaves Swing and Netbeans behind and uses SWT and Eclipse instead that Sun will get the message, don't you think?

    > Sites like Viva are crucial for this to happen.

    I agree. Please, note however that Viva's focus is limited and invite you and others to fill the need for a vendor and book publisher independent Open Source Java Community site.

    > What I would love to see is for someone to create an open source Java
    > distribution

    You might wonna check out http://www.jpackage.org for a start.

    - Gerald
  30. boycott java![ Go to top ]

    I guess if everyone leaves Swing and Netbeans behind and uses SWT and Eclipse instead that Sun will get the message, don't you think?

    >

    according to that logic, you should go all the way and boycott java altogether. In fact, why dont you go ahead and do just that? The choices are available, nothing keeping you. There are even fully open source languages with better concepts (some say).

    Christian
  31. Swing[ Go to top ]

    In my opinion, Swing is a good API for building GUI. It is very extendable and flexible. In addition, it allows you to implement MVC pattern without replication of the data into the widgets.

    Finally, with the inclusion of the “Long-term Persistence for JavaBeans” into the JDK, Swing is competitive against XUL. I hope that the IDE vendors will support this specification soon, this would enable use of true visual inheritance and thereby speed up Swing GUI development.

    Artem
  32. Boycott Netbeans?[ Go to top ]

    <snip>
    Get a grip bud...although I agree with you (somewhat), you need to chill it down a bit or people are going to think you're an idiot. </snip>

    Too late for that, he has already proven this time and again on various web sites. I think he does more severe harm to the open source movement than helping it.
  33. RE: Enough conspiracy theories[ Go to top ]

    Your conspiracy theories are growing on me, I am beginning to think you are >paid by Microsoft to undermine Java...


    It's funny you should say that. I made the same statement to one of his idiotic posts on JavaLobby.

    Gerald isn't worth your time and he has set the OSS cause back about 10 years!
  34. So what?[ Go to top ]


    > Again, the point is that Sun controls the core Java APIs like Microsoft controls the core Windows APIs.

    Well... at least I have all the API documentation as javadocs.

    >
    > log4j on the other hand is an open royality-free standard and thus avoids vendor lock-in and puts you and not Sun in control.

    Ohhh no! I'm using sun's loggin api! Now Sun will control the world and turn everybody into zombies! I don't want my children to live in a world like that.

    > Sun gains control over the core Java APIs by replacing open royality-free standards such as log4j with proprietary "pseudo standards" that require licensing fees and that limit your redistributions rights and much more.

    Well... can't I include the latest jre with my product without paying a single penny to sun?

    Man... I thought I had opened theonion.com instead of theserverside.com when I read this post for the first time.
  35. Um, not quite.[ Go to top ]

    Gerald: Again, the point is that Sun controls the core Java APIs like Microsoft controls the core Windows APIs.

      log4j on the other hand is an open royality-free standard and thus avoids vendor lock-in and puts you and not Sun in control.


    Not quite. Sun does control the core Java API's, they also created them. However, the control Sun has over the core Java API's is spread among the industry via the JCP. In fact, the 1.4 logging API expert group consisted of BEA, Ericsson, IBM, and Sun among others. Whether I use log4j or java.util.logging Sun is STILL essentially in control because they own the rights to the runtime required to run applications written in Java. If they decide to revoke my right to use that for free, I'm screwed whether I'm using log4j or java.util.logging.

    Gerald: Sun gains control over the core Java APIs by replacing open royality-free standards such as log4j with proprietary "pseudo standards" that require licensing fees and that limit your redistributions rights and much more.

    Again, not quite. Sun does not "gain control", they already have it. They fully own the Java language and runtime. They are free to do with it as they please. Thankfully, they mature the language, it's APIs, and related technologies in a manner that, while perhaps not perfect, solicits and respects input from many, many sources within the community and industry.

    As for your last statement about licensing fees and redistribution rights, this is just out and out wrong and I must concede that I beliieve I have fallen for a troll post. I pay absolutely no fees and am free to distribute ANY software I write in the Java language HOWEVER I want under any license I want. (Just like log4j, get it?) What you are implying is as silly as saying I should implement my own version of java.util.HashMap to avoid using a "psuedo-standard" that will limit my redistribution rights. Whether I use java.util.HashMap or my own implementation, exactly like whether I use java.util.logging.* or log4j, makes absolutely no difference aside from the technical merits of each. There is no issue of vendor lock in or legal concerns regarding redistribution. If your statement of limited redistribution rights "and much more" were true than using log4j would be of no help since it would be subject to those same restrictions. Do you follow the distinction?

    I refer you to Cedric's quite succinct post as well as Amir's well written and rather complete rebuttal to your original post if you require further convincing. :-)
  36. <Gerald>Sun gains control over the core Java APIs by replacing open royality-free standards such as log4j with proprietary "pseudo standards" that require licensing fees and that limit your redistributions rights and much more.</Gerald>

    As much as I love Open Source, this is pure FUD. You don't have to pay any royalty to distribute your own java applications - you can even distribute the java runtime with it for free. What you can't do, is implement your own java runtime without licensing from Sun. See previous post for the reason why.
  37. Intentions vs. Effects[ Go to top ]

    Gerald, I think there are several flaws your reasoning and some conflation of claims.

    "If you use log4j you don't get locked into another me-too closed-source core Sun API. " -Gerald

    How exactly is using a standard part of the Java platform lock-in? Should I use a jakarta String class to prevent lock-in? The whole point is that it is a JAVA api. Any implementation of Java, closed or open, that conforms to the 1.4 spec will have that logging functionality.

    As for the me-too-ness of it I don't think that's relevant. Is jakarta's collections implementation me too? Can Sun never put in useful things that were not in Java before because an open source project did them first? Most open source projects are me-too but that does not mean they don't add some unique value or a particular aspect of the solution. By your logic any implementation of Java besides Sun's is derivative and worthy of scorn.

    "What course of action do you suggest for ensuring an open royality-free Java core? " -Gerald

    Well that does depend on what definition of "open" we are talking about. I think Java is pretty open compared to .Net. I cannot understand why closed source companies must be tolerant and inclusive of the open source community and not vice versa. As much as everyone seems to dislike admitting it Sun invented Java and is responsible for much of it success as is IBM, Oracle, BEA, and yes, even Microsoft. What does this mean? It means that other people who use java may have different values than you and even competing interests. That is not a reason to deride everything they do or try to make it fail. It's a reason to look for common goals and interests that can be achieved together.

    As far as royalties go, I am not intimately familiar with the licensing terms and fees necessary to have a sanctioned java implementation. I do know that Sun's control of the platform had one benefit and that was the prevention of embrace, extend, and extinguish by Microsoft. Sun has fought that battle, hard, with their own money, and I don't know one developer who has even said thank you. We'd still be waiting for Microsoft to implement standard Java 2 features in their version so that the platform could really take off.

    "Sun's strategy evidently is to put ever more APIs into the core to kill off any open-source competition. This is basically a replay of Microsoft's Windows bundling strategy. To stop Sun's madness just say no to me-too closed-source core Sun APIs and stick with better open-source alternatives such as log4j, for example. " -Gerald

    And what evinces this strategy? You've insinuated that Sun is behaving maliciously toward an open source project without so much as a quote from a memo or email or even overheard whisper from a Sun employee. That's called slander. Sun incorporates ideas into the java core that have been shown to be of value to everyone. Some of us don't enjoy having twenty jar dependencies for our projects, all different versions, all with properties files or xml files.

    I still use log4j as do many others despite that fact that there is logging available in the core. It's nice though when I only have a few classes in an application to be able to call on java's buiilt-in logging features and not bring in the sledgehammer/drilling platform that is log4j.

    Still, I believe we have common ground. We both value choice; we simply differ on whether Sun is trying to increase or decrease the number of choices. I think that Sun's incorporation of logging features and other things adds to the choices available to me whereas you may feel that it's an attempt to crowd out an open source implementation. If Sun wanted to kill open source they would have onerous licensing terms that prevented people from using the GPL or LGPL as a certain other company does They also would not be working on a way to have open source scripting languages be able to bind and use java objects. So let's not cast aspersions as to their motives. Besides, tinfoil hats are out of season. ;)

    I apologize for the length of this reply but I get so tired of reading the way people deride Sun and other companies that have done the bulk of the work in creating and building java. I think the Apache group and other large open source projects have also been invaluable. It's not an either/or proposition.
  38. Too much politics[ Go to top ]

    I'm disappointed with the site. I expected something like theserverside.com with focus on Open Source Java.

    This site brought me nearly no information. I'm a programmer, not a politician! I'd rather read about the various open-source-projects, since it's not easy to keep up with all of them. I hoped to find a site, that gives me short information about news from Apache, Eclipse, jBoss and the numerous SourceForge Java projects without having to read through all their webpages.

    Instead of this, I read about changing the IDE because of the UI toolkit... just FYI: when NetBeans started, there were nothing but AWT and Swing, and I can understand them that they don't throw away a good part of their program only due to Sun's silly license restrictions.

    My suggestions:
    - See above. Introduce new Java OS projects and help people keeping up the existing ones.
    - More info, less links. There is no better guarantee to keep people from visiting the linked sites than putting a dozen and a half links on a single page.

    Regards,
    Markus
  39. I'm disappointed with the site. I expected something like theserverside.com

    > with focus on Open Source Java.

      I'm sorry if the Viva site doesn't meet your expectations. Just to clarify: Viva is not a general open source Java news or discussion site. Instead Viva's focus is on core open soure Java building blocks such as runtimes, test suites, compilers, core libraries, scripting languages and so on.

      - Gerald
  40. Laaaaaaame[ Go to top ]

    Swing is closed crap, SWT is perfect!
    Netbeans uses Swing. CRAP! Eclipse doesn't. PERFECT!

    wx4j?!? Java Gnome?!? Qt Java?!? What is this? The more obscure (and away from Java) the toolkit the better? C'mon... It sure grants hackers their status of above-the-average-owners-of-knoledge, but to the commoner, it just complicates applications' installation.
    Obs.: I know they have their space, I just wouldn't discard Swing for any of them. SWT is better than Swing in some aspects - it's more integrated to the native UI, mainly Windows, but is has problems too, it's not GC-friendly and it's much less flexible than Swing.

    Saying "Boycott Swing" is just like saying "Boycott Collections" or "Boycott JDBC". Maybe "Boycott Java, use Python or Perl"...

    XUL/SVG/XForms vs. Java2D/3D? Does the author really knows what is he talking about?

    Sun sure needs to be more open (JCP in special, but ASF is already looking for it) but the arguments presented in this site in particular are just lame.

    Moreover, the site presents a list of links with reaaaaally short descriptions and no hierarchy. Definitely, it won't be in my bookmarks...
  41. Nobody is Perfect[ Go to top ]

    Moreover, the site presents a list of links with reaaaaally short descriptions

    > and no hierarchy.

      Thanks for your comments. I will work on improving the link pages. It's all just getting started.

      - Gerald
  42. again[ Go to top ]

    Gerald,

    We have been extremely productive with Java based partly on Sun's dedication to maintaining vm integrity across os and versions.

    I have seen you post this topic countless times on Java Lobby with hardly anyone supporting your views. Don't you get the hint?

    Get a hobby man.
  43. Choice not Derision[ Go to top ]

    Gerald,

    >
    > We have been extremely productive with Java based partly on Sun's dedication to maintaining vm integrity across os and versions.
    >
    > I have seen you post this topic countless times on Java Lobby with hardly anyone supporting your views. Don't you get the hint?
    >
    > Get a hobby man.

    On an extended note

    Yes Sun and the JCP, which includes the ASF in several JSR's, controls what goes into the core, however many API's are just that Interfaces to implementations, if you want to use PreferencesX instead of Suns Preferences Implementation but it implements the same API then just do it and stop whining about closed code. One of the reasons that Java can be portable, etc is that the Java API's are 70% deterministic (i.e. run out of the box as is) and the rest of them can be overridden by your own implementations, if you use the default implementations it's 100% deterministic.


    For Pete's sake man, Sun are just about doing as much as an "evil-vendor-locking, soul-eating-corporation" (to paraphrase most of your arguments on Viva) can do to allow input into the design and future development of Java by externmal parties, sure they have a certain amount of chairmanship over everything, but in the end Sun created Java and please remember....

    Without Sun this conversation/topic would not exist.

    People talk of C# and ASP.net - what are microsoft doing to help outfits like Mono and Portable.NET - relatively nothing a couple of phone calls just to make sure that it's okay for them to have a go. .NET has been out for nearly two years and mono is still playing catch up with _no_ input from Microsoft. This is not to say that I think that this is wasted effort - its great to see OSS making in roads into .NET but compared to the kind of input that the OSS community can bring to Java, JCP and, yes, to Sun, M$'s input to Mono is a drop in the ocean. At least Sun don't hang the Sword of Damocles over the OSS community - they say "JBoss you're not certified - this is what everyone else has had to do to become certified, you're no different - but it can be sorted out without lawyers and dodgy business practices"

    Sun are entitled to make money, they're a business. Gerald, Vik - if the companies you worked for suddenly gave everything away, charged not a penny for it, and then said "sorry we can't pay you" - would that sit well with you, would it match you ideologies?

    Everyone slags off Sun for not doing enough to Open source Java and it's related API's but at least it allows a large degree of choice in things like Log4j/java.util.logging, Jakarta Collections/Trove/Sun Collections, etc. and doesn't really care when you use somebody else implementation, but what about all the other companies that do relatively little to help Open Source and OSS Innovation.

    At least Sun are trying to get opinions from across both the commercial and OSS software spectrums. And that's a damn lot more than many other companies.

    Open Source Software is all about choice, not derision of other works.

    You have that choice - stop whining.

    I do think that an Open Source portal for Java related technologies is a good thing, but promote choice not "you must migrate 'cos it's not OSS"
  44. Sun vs Open Source vs C#[ Go to top ]

    Sun's JCP:
    EJB, JDO, JSF, Portlet, Swing
    Do you think these are good spec to use for building a commercial app? (I do not)

    Open Source:
    Struts, Eclipse, iBatis, Hibernate, XUL, Axis, JDOM, XML-RPC.
    Now that is more like it!!!

    Point is that what is good for Sun and might not be good for Java.
    or even Java can be more competitive w/o Sun, because of Open Source.

    And Java needs to compete with C#, and ASP.NET, C# is very, very nice and profitable. (Sun has slow HW as well according to TPC.org, so how long can it exist? )

    Maybe another way is Solaris vs Linux?

    Summary: Open Source makes Java better, Sun makes Java Feces.

    .V
  45. Sun vs Open Source vs C#[ Go to top ]

    I just checked stocks, here is Sun
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SUNW&d=c&k=c2&a=v&p=e5,m20,m100,m200,e200&t=2y&l=off&z=l&q=l
    Do you think we should have an open source alternative?

    And here is another link as to if Sun wishes for Java to get better:
    http://www.mail-archive.com/jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org/msg00358.html

    .V
  46. I'm also a big fan of Struts, Hibernate and XUL, and also a big fan o Swing, Servlets, JSP, JDBC and several other good apis developed under the JCP... I'm not saying they are perfect as isn't Struts, XUL and others but they are pretty good. I can't see how Sun is preventing OS projects to succeed
  47. Your Open Source Java Community[ Go to top ]

    Judging from the response I get there's a tremendous demand for a vendor and book publisher independent open source Java community site. Grab the opportunity before someone else does. Evidently Sun's new Java.Net "community" site managed by O'Reilly has close to zero credibility. I guess everybody sees what it is, that is, just another marketing gimmick to push Sun's party line.

    You don't have to worry about Viva because Viva is not a general open source Java news or discussion site. As I wrote before Viva's focus is on core open soure Java building blocks such as runtimes, test suites, compilers, core libraries, scripting languages and so on.

    Over the next couple of weeks I plan to roll out an open-source core Java news blog titled "The Java Republic - Chronicle of the Free Java Now Campaign" and an Open Source Java F.A.Q. but that's pretty much it.

    - Gerald
  48. Judging from the response I get there's a tremendous demand for a vendor and book publisher independent open source Java community site. Grab the opportunity before someone else does. Evidently Sun's new Java.Net "community" site managed by O'Reilly has close to zero credibility. I guess everybody sees what it is, that is, just another marketing gimmick to push Sun's party line.

    >

    You must be getting a lot of private responses to your post as I've read nothing here that indicates "zero credibility" of the java.net web site. As a matter of fact you're the only one to mention it so far. Come on, if you want to be taken seriously at least try to bring up some facts.
  49. Personal Vendetta...[ Go to top ]

    Gerald, even though I like some of your work (i.e. the vamphq with webstart material), lately I've come to almost despise your actions.

    1, You are angry on swing team @ javadesktop.org that they introduce their own "XUL" language - ok, that's fine.
    I agree that they should have looked on what the community already had working (i.e. just as logging, opengl, pollable input and now XUL - prior art, good and bad, projects were already developed - they should have looked at them and atleast tried to communicate to learn from people with already "wet feet").

    *But* that doesn't justify the next couple of actions:

    2, You humiliate a certain, some would call good looking, member of Sun's swing team.
    3, You don't apologize in a clear way (no, you didn't - atleast not in any way I would have been satisfied with if I were the "victim").
    4, You were banned from www.javadesktop.org
    5, You start lobbying on javalobby.org to get notice about how unjustly you were treated - the majority disagreed that you were.
    6, You then start lobbying on javalobby.org about how evil Sun is (I guess by some jump through space-time continuum you extrapolates from members of Sun staff to Sun the company.)
    7, And now you're spreading FUD by talking about evil vendor lock in at both javalobby and here etc etc

    Above doesn't really look good - now does it?

    If you really want an open-source java community, I would recommend you to clean up your own act first!

    And then, remember, keep your "enemy" close - don't use words like "evil" "lock in", but try to reason with some dignity on why an open source java world would be better than the current one. Without trying to make Sun look bad (as that clearly shows that you've got a personal interest in not only open source...), and maybe even I will agree with you :)
  50. Java.NET == Java.NOT[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    You must be getting a lot of private responses to your post as I've read nothing here that indicates "zero credibility" of the java.net web site. As a matter of fact you're the only one to mention it so far. Come on, if you want to be taken seriously at least try to bring up some facts.
    </quote>

    Please becareful if you're talking about Java.NET (or from now on I will call them Java.NOT -> this suits them better). They tried to discredit SF.net, which has done a lot of good works in Open Source Java community.

    Check my thread at JavaLobby.org:
    http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?forum=61&thread=8457

    I wonder how many Java projects are hosted by SF.net? A lot I think. And Java.net people are simply writting a non-sense FAQ. I think Java.NOT should learn what actually the meaning of NETWORK. I'm not working for SF.net but I think, they deserve our respect. Nothing would be the same if SF.net would not offer their services!

    Lofi.
  51. Java.NET == Java.NOT[ Go to top ]

    They tried to discredit SF.net, which has done a

    >lot of good works in Open Source Java community.
    >

    ????

    guys, something i really have to wonder. have you ever heard about "COMPETITION" ??

    If java.net think they have a better offering for OSS Java developers than SourceForge.net, then so be it! Let the developlers decide...

    Furthermode, I do NOT think that they are making any false claims. There is no "SF.net JAVA OSS" community. (Of course, i do not know if Java.net will ever become one)


    joe
  52. SF.net[ Go to top ]

    <joe>
    guys, something i really have to wonder. have you ever heard about "COMPETITION" ??
    </joe>

    Do you thing spreading non-sense stuffs is a good competition? Competition is a good thing, no doubt on it. But for me, the meaning of competition is not spreading non-sense stuffs and FUDs to kill your competitors. Or do you think, that we should not have good principles in our business?

    <joe>
    Furthermode, I do NOT think that they are making any false claims. There is no "SF.net JAVA OSS" community.
    </joe>

    This is not about the community itself, it's about the FAQs. Please read my thread at JavaLobby carefully. SF.net has the so called Java Foundry. It shows some good OS Java projects (just like a newspaper).

    Regards,
    Lofi.
  53. SF.net[ Go to top ]

    hi Lofi,

    of course i have read your JavaLobby posting before i posted this message. i just did not find that your conclusions are correct. I do not see any kind of fraud or FUD in their FAQ. Of course, they have a long way to go until they become as useful (or more useful) than SF.NET, but that's normal i guess.

    anyway, let's agree to disagree...

    joe
  54. Agree[ Go to top ]

    <joe>
    anyway, let's agree to disagree...
    </joe>

    Agree ;-)

    I just wonder, why Java.NOT puts so big effort just to build "another" Java community? They can build something usefull with their money. For example, they can build a discussion forum or a portal, which aggregates all other Java discussion forums available: TSS, JavaLobby, JGuru, iSavvix, JavaWorld, O'Reilly, IBM Java, SF.net, etc. This would be very nice:
    - Just login to Java.NET (NET == Network ;-))
    - And you can put every username and password you have from other forums at Java.NET (not only RSS feeds).
    - So, you can have every single discussions from any other forums without having to leave Java.NET. Also you can read every articles from ONE place.

    To make this happens Java.NET has to make a NETWORK with other forums :-) So, we can call it Java.NET and not Java.NOT.

    Anyway, I think the makers of Java.NOT were not creative at all... Pitty, but that's life :-(

    Regards,
    Lofi.
    http://openuss.sourceforge.net
  55. Java.NET == Java.NOT[ Go to top ]

    <quote> Please becareful if you're talking about Java.NET (or from now on I will call them Java.NOT -> this suits them better). They tried to discredit SF.net, which has done a lot of good works in Open Source Java community.
    </quote>

    Actually that was just my point. Nobody here was talking about java.net before Gerald claimed that according to the response he got it was clear that it has no credibility. I'd like him to point out where in the discussion here on theserverside.com anybody supports that claim of his. But I guess that's just to much to ask.

    Oh, and by the way, I don't want to talk about the merits of java.net. But I've used the O'Reilly website a lot and have found that one to be quite useful. I'm not an involved with O'Reilly in any way but I do take exception when somebody attacks a company that has so far provided excellent service to the developer community without backing up his claims.
  56. Sun supports SourceForge[ Go to top ]

    ... in fact Sun even went and initially asked them to host java.net but they declined for their own business reasons. See http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9965 for example.
  57. Re: Viva[ Go to top ]

    Gerald,
    If Sun open sourced java, what would prevent a certain monoply from creating and distributing it's own tainted version of java? Sun would gain the Linux market, but lose the Windows market.
    Also, don't you think that it would be more effective if you made the site more of a opensource-java lobby than an anti-Sun site? Not only would you get more people visiting (like me), but you would actually get people from inside Sun too. From what I've heard, there has always been a lot of interest inside Sun for open sourcing java. It's that above mentioned fear that keeps them from doing it.
  58. If Sun open sourced java, what would prevent a certain monoply from creating and

    > distributing it's own tainted version of java? Sun would gain the Linux market,
    > but lose the Windows market.

      Well, I guess you are just repeating Sun's official party line that portrays Microsoft as the evil empire and Sun as the white knight savior of the Free World. How simplistic and what a lame excuse.

      Truth is that Sun acts ever more like a Microsoft wannabe. For example, witness Sun and Microsoft standing united with SCO against Linux that threatens their core business.

      Anyway, if Sun open sources Java it won't fork because after all every fork has to open-source their additions too. Do you really think that Microsoft would give up its IP (intellectual property) rights and distribute a GPL'ed Java runtine on Windows, for example?

      Using your logic can you explain why Microsoft doesn't use its marketing machine to wrestle control of Linux by distributing its own tainted version?

      - Gerald
  59. <Gerald>Using your logic can you explain why Microsoft doesn't use its marketing machine to wrestle control of Linux by distributing its own tainted version?</Gerald>

    Simple, because they can't integrate it with windows.
    Have you already forgotten what happened to Netscape?
    And control your tone. You are in danger of ending this
    debate.
  60. Viva[ Go to top ]

    Good to know that there are people like Gerard, who think different than the rest of us (how boring it will be if all of us always think the same ;-))

    I would say, Gerald is a revolutionary type, the "first mover". It is hard to be the first mover as we can see from the history. But the first mover can change the whole world in just a very short time.

    Most of us (like me) are the "follower". More to say, an evolutionary type. We are waiting until something happen. What will we do if Sun for example ask for money before we can use the JVM - no free download anymore and you have to destroy every single JVM you use? Many of you would say, no problem we'll pay. How much are you ready to pay? The rest of us (including me) are hoping that something like this would never ever happen. Having Open Source counterpart in JVM + all the libs will allow you to choose.

    I know, that Java is the "son" or "daughter" from Sun but what is the problem just to let standard organization to control Java? Sun can always build the better implementation, but we have the choice ;-)

    Regards,
    Lofi.

    BTW. I like the color of VIVA - red == courage and white == purity - just like the color of indonesian national flag, where the "Java" island lies. Hope that VIVA represents "courage and purity" activity ;-)
  61. Viva la FUD[ Go to top ]

    "What will we do if Sun for example ask for money before we can use the JVM - no free download anymore and you have to destroy every single JVM you use?",
    "have you stopped beating your wife?"

    Both questions does IMHO, more or less, fall in the "MU!" category (i.e. the "pretense" - word? - is not sound, relies on irrelevant/unlikely information :)
  62. A better approach?[ Go to top ]

    There is a way that Sun could allow Open Source implementations of the java runtime and still protect their interests. They could license java for free to Non-Profit Organizations. The NPO's would still have to pass the compatibility tests and won't be able to add to the java.* and sun.* packages. Maybe a group like Apache that is not anti-Sun but pro-Open Source and without any personal agenda could actually pull this off. They already have some experience with these issues. This achieves the goal of enabling Linux distros to ship with Open Source java runtimes, does it not?

    On a less serious note, that post was funny as hell, but what is the "MU!" category?
  63. Mu![ Go to top ]

    Hit me if I'm not correct here (I read it somewhere, some time long ago ;), but I think it was something like this:

    "Mu" is a japanese(IIRC) word with a meaning "the question can't be answered due to logic error" or something similar.

    Thus the perfect answer to the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" :)

    Another question was something like

    ??"Has a dog got the Buddha nature"?? (not sure if I'm remebering that correctly at all ;)

    If the above didn't make any sense - was incorrect:
    Please, I need some help here :)
  64. And the answer "mu!" is also the chinese for a dog bark.. bowwow..
  65. "guk!" instead of "mu!"[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    And the answer "mu!" is also the chinese for a dog bark.. bowwow..
    </quote>

    If it is so, we have to change "MU!" into "GUK!" because guk-guk-guk is the Java-nesse version for a dog bark ;-)

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
  66. RE: A better approach?[ Go to top ]

    I can see two problems with that approach:

    1, Sun gets money from licensing the compatibility tests.

    I guess this shouldn't be a problem - they can't make *that* much money on this?

    2, Sun is very strict about the "java" brand name.

    Maybe getting non-profit organisations involved and producing java runtimes could "dilute" (word?) the brand name? Not sure about this one though...

    Though, it would be a very good thing indeed if, for example, the gcj/kaffe people got access to the compatibility tests, not any sun source, just the compatibility tests. That way they could easily see where they need to focus there attention without wasting time on writing there own similar test cases.

    Another thing that I believe Sun should have doon a long time ago is to modularize the java platform and provide most modules as extensions.

    Examples of modules:
    1, java-core: the "kernel" of java - including stuff like java.lang** packages and basic security. Shouldn't be more than a < 2mb download by a quick estimate of what is required. This also includes basic java web start like abilities, version checking and downloading extensions etc.

    2, java-awt: depends on 1 (includes java2d)
    3, java-swing: 1

    4, java-web: 2,3
    5, java-sql: 1
    6, java-io: 1
    7, java-network: 1,6 (java.nio + java.net)
    etc etc

    And loose the requirement to ship an entire jvm as it is today by default. By using the new auto-update ability the "kernel" could download needed extensions automatically or (if not broadband user) tell the user that the program needs extension x and y. Providing him with the ability to connect to the net and download.

    This would be the perfect case for java deployment! IMNSHO :)

    I.e. to deploy a opengl game you need:

    1,6,7 + lwjgl/jogl + your game

    a download of maybe 3-4mb + your game size, where the 3-4mb will be a one-time download compared to today's ~8-10 mb. Thus java swing applets will probably only require an extra download of 3-5mb (the java runtime required) making them even more comparable to flash runtime in download size (IIRC). And a 2d graphics applet only a 2-3 mb extra download!

    Add this up with the new XUL applets the swing team is working on and we will maybe see "the return of the applet" :))
  67. RE: A better approach?[ Go to top ]

    <quote>1, Sun gets money from licensing the compatibility tests.</quote>

    Sun can always wave the cost of the test kits for Non-Profit Organizations (not for commerical entities like IBM and BEA). They are already doing this for the Servlet and other specifications thanks to Apache.

    <quote>2, Sun is very strict about the "java" brand name.</quote>

    IBM already has it's own JDK, so why would an Apache JRE dilute the brand name?

    You are spot on about the modularity issue tho'.

    Thanks for the explanation of "Mu!". I have to catch up on my Zen :)
  68. Just to let you know that the Java Developer Journal (JDJ) now sports a story titled "There Are Many Ways to Skin (or "Free") the Java Cat" by Jeremy Geelan that tries to summarize the ongoing discussion in this very thread here. So watch what you type because your words might end up in the Washington Post tomorrow.

     - Gerald
  69. Under what license?[ Go to top ]

    Btw, under what license will Viva be released? GPL?

    Benny Ng
  70. Reuse, Reuse, Reuse[ Go to top ]

    Btw, under what license will Viva be released? GPL?


      Viva won't start from scratch and thus will largely depend on the licenses used by the underlying projects (e.g. GPL, LPGP, CPL, Apache, etc.)

      For more info check out the sourcefore project page @ http://sourceforge.net/projects/viva

      - Gerald
  71. The theme appears to be to fragment Java in any which way you can. Even has some referennces to Mono, etc.

    Java Freedom is Java Death and THE MONOPOLIST's hurrah! Besides the JVM it is the core libraries that spur java and allow people to switch platforms at will. A rudderless Java, without the stewardship of a commercial outfit like Sun, is doomed.

    Why would any Java programmer want to visit this site? Stick with the theserverside.
  72. Utter FUD![ Go to top ]

    The absurd 'boycott this' and 'boycott that' attitude would do more harm than good to Java technology and the Java community as a whole. Your goal is obviously to undermine the proliferation of Java technology.

    Who in their right mind would use your model of fragmented open source Java technology to tackle enterprise scale systems? Where is the stability, the programmed release dates, the support, and the backing of multiple industry giants behind the development of the technology? Or, would you prefer that Java became a platform with multiple open source APIs all attempting to solve the same problem? Great idea, for example let's have a Java programming language with 15 different types of database APIs all developed by different individuals! Now wouldn't that be great? Let's scrap the JCP while you are at it! Utter stupidity more like.

    Your website is purely a politically motivated propaganda instrument that is of no use to serious Java software developers.
  73. GPL Java core[ Go to top ]

    I totally support having JRE under GPL. Then bugs could be fixed by developers. (eg. I'm sure the JDOM guys would have fixed the StringBuffer bug if they could). I think that Sun should definitely control the Java brand name, just change the development model for the core.

    I definitely agree with the modularization of the current JRE.

    I don't agree with boycotting. That doesn't achieve anything useful. Gerald it doesn't look good when you bash and spread FUD in order to promote your own ideas and point of view. It is much better if you can educate people to the advantages of a GPL Java (eg. bug fixing) and help projects like Kaffe.

    Making a GPL Java implementation better then Sun implementation will do much more then trying to boycott. Look at JBoss. Even though it doesn't have the J2EE brand name, it is widely used and developers are using it.

    Anyway I think your site would be more useful if you drop the boycotting issue and focus on making a GPL Java implementation.

    My 2 cents,
    Cameron Zemek