BEA achieves best price/performance SpecjAppServer Results

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News: BEA achieves best price/performance SpecjAppServer Results

  1. BEA and HP submitted 3 new SpecjAppServer2002 benchmark numbers running Weblogic 8.1 on HP hardware, with one test using Windows and the other 2 on Linux, in the multinode category. BEA now leads the multinode category in performance with 1037.02 total operations per second (TOPS) and leads all existing subimssions on price/performance ($200.34/TOPS.

    You can view all the results at:
    http://www.spec.org/osg/jAppServer2002/results/jAppServer2002.html

    Interestingly, the configuration running on Windows is similar to the IBM benchmark that was released in June of this year, where IBM only achieved 448.12 TOPS at 647.52 $/TOPS).

    Threaded Messages (25)

  2. For 90 thousand dollars per cpu...[ Go to top ]

    It had damn better be the fastest. Can it also wash my car, massage my tooshie, and do my dishes? It oughta.

    After some point, from the customer's view at least, there is a diminishing return on the money BEA is pumping into the performance of their app server, the cost of which is eventually pushed-on to the customer.

    I think they ought to spend some of that cash and go back to school to learn how to do math.

    90,000 - 89,900 = a reasonable price for their software that would ensure the pervasiveness of the J2EE paradigm in our market space.

    Best,

    John C. Dale
  3. ... or $495 per CPU[ Go to top ]

    If your price was correct it would be quite impressive to get the total price of a 6 CPU system including hardware and a database for $208,000. The license used in the benchmark actually costs $10,000 per CPU. Lots of projects will be happy with the $495 Express license, which I think is a very decent price.

    -- Thomas Oldervoll, www.zenior.no
  4. It's not 90k per cpu[ Go to top ]

    WebLogic Server 8.1 (the core J2EE bit) is not $90k per CPU, it is around $10k for the non clustered version and about $15k for clustered. $90k is for the full platfom which includes WebLogic Portal (this also includes a rudimentary content management system), WebLogic Integration (for b2b, b2c etc, this also includes a rules engine) and a form of IDE to work across Portal, WLI and for general bean creation (it is not a full blown IDE). It also includes what looks like the fastest VM on the market.

    Also bear in mind that WebLogic Server is without doubt the best application server on the market without even looking at peformance. They are streets ahead in terms of spec support, they beat WebSphere to EJB 2.0 by 12 months, an incredibly long time in the IT world.

    Secondly, noone in their right mind would ever pay list for something that is $90k per CPU anyway, or if they do, they deserve to.

    And as for the person that came out and said all this stat stuff is meaningless, no doubt you'd be posting that there was no way to differentiate between servers performance if they didn't produce these stats. This is an independent benchmark test that enables people like us to see the relative performce between servers.

    Besides this, the CPU licensing approach by BEA is pretty ridiculous and for me one chink in their armour.

    Now say we want to go from a 2 CPU system to a 6 CPU system and we have a full platform application (portal talking to WLI talking to WLS / EIS etc. We'd have to pay an additional $360k for the licenses and then an additional 21% on top of this foe support giving about $420k list. Also take into account that you will need a similar spec for a testing server if you want to do full blown load testing and then again for a DR server.

    The numbers are mindboggling.

    At least the developer seats are free. What with Apache Geronimo too, poor old JBOSS.
  5. It's not 90k per cpu[ Go to top ]

    |
    |Secondly, noone in their right mind would ever pay list for something that is
    |$90k per CPU anyway, or if they do, they deserve to.
    |

    Quite right!

    |
    |Also take into account that you will need a similar spec for a testing server
    |if you want to do full blown load testing and then again for a DR server.
    |

    Similarly, if you pay (anything at all) for test servers / distaster recovery servers, then you deserve to.

    So many people bleating about the cost of Weblogic/Websphere quote list numbers when its a well known fact that no-one (sensible) pays list price. And certainly no-one (sensible) is going to pay the same unit price for 6 licenses as they will for 1 license.

    -Nick
  6. For 90 thousand dollars per cpu...[ Go to top ]

    90,000 - 89,900 = a reasonable price for their software that would ensure the > pervasiveness of the J2EE paradigm in our market space. - John C. Dale


    I believe BEA is interested in maximizing their profits, not "ensuring the pervasiveness of the J2EE paradigm in our market space". I'm sure BEA would charge the same price for a VB or Pascal app server.
  7. Benchmark Background[ Go to top ]

    As a few people have pointed out, WebLogic Server, the application server which includes the J2EE container, security framework, clustering, management, Workshop tool and framework, Web services and other enterprise functionality, lists for $10k/cpu. IBM WebSphere costs exactly the same per CPU.

    BEA also offers WebLogic Integration (EAI, adapters, BPM, transformations, etc.) and WebLogic Portal (personalization, light weight content management, interaction management, commerce, portal framework, etc.). You can buy these products individually or as a single package, which is called WebLogic Platform. People throwing the $90K number around are referring to the entire product line, which is inaccurate for this use case. This benchmark only uses WebLogic Server.

    Here are a few key points that you can take away from these benchmarks'

    1) WebLogic Server is VERY fast. When compared to other application servers, you can see that you need FAR LESS hardware to support the same number of users/transactions. Hardware savings aside, you need fewer app server software licenses, which drives down the total license and maintenance cost. The net is that a free or low cost application server will often times INCREASE the total project cost.

    2) This configuration uses WebLogic/Windows/SQLServer. BEA is the only vendor publishing configurations on different operating systems (Windows/Linux/HP-UX/Solaris) running on different hardware (IA32/IA64/PA-RISC/SPARC) and different databases (Oracle/MS SQLServer).

    3) All of the recent benchmarks are a testament to the BEA/HP alliance. The companies are working together in the labs to optimize both companies products and tuning expertise, which inevitably help customers in their deployments.

    Please keep your questions coming. We are happy to explain what we are doing here.

    Eric
    BEA Systems
  8. Benchmark Background[ Go to top ]

    Wow,
       Wonderful information, I hope everybody understand BEA's Web Logic application server and How fast they run bring millions into your company. This sounds like windows 2003 commercial in TV :)))))))).


    By the way, Application server does not bring any value addition to a project other than providing a J2EE container to support your Java code. It is all about who is writing the code and what is there in developer's brain decide the future of your application. IF SOMEBODY OUT THERE HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY 90K/CPU, A COMPANY NAMED BEA IS THERE TO FOOL YOUR SHARE HOLDER'S ASSETS.
  9. Benchmark Background[ Go to top ]

    Wow,

    >    Wonderful information, I hope everybody understand BEA's Web Logic application server and How fast they run bring millions into your company. This sounds like windows 2003 commercial in TV :)))))))).
    >
    >
    > By the way, Application server does not bring any value addition to a project other than providing a J2EE container to support your Java code. It is all about who is writing the code and what is there in developer's brain decide the future of your application. IF SOMEBODY OUT THERE HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY 90K/CPU, A COMPANY NAMED BEA IS THERE TO FOOL YOUR SHARE HOLDER'S ASSETS.

    Yeah, okay, so the brain leaves, then what? Who learns how to do the proprietary caching, or the proprietary persistence layer, or the proprietary security or the remotability or the failover capabilities or the load balancing.....yawn

    God why am I replying to this drivel, oh yes, I'm on holiday for two weeks and my drivel listening will be suspended ;)
  10. Wow , what a surprising company is BEA? They are like sunshine in J2EE market. Anyway $$ is cheap now compared to Euro and Pounds. I went ahead and bought BEA products!!!!!!. Where do I go for solving my buggs???

    JRockit!!! ... I HAVE TO CALL SWEEDEN , OHH MY GOD
    WORKSHOP!!!!... Exactly some where in Microsoft
    Web logic !!! San jose
    Jam !!!! God only know, unfortunatly if somebody call BEA number guys on other side is so rude on jam support, they don't even know where is the real source code right now.
    Portal!!!!. God never ever call NJ office support center, they may even give you information which is not even dreamed by portal developers back in some where Boston.

    Hey wanna know one more thing recently BEA said, they do have new version of JAM , Jam version 5.1 . Suddenly my manager called me, hey we have to migrate. Mainframe department staffs called to a meeting to upgrade CRM from version 5.0 to 5.1 !!!
      Mainframe admin asked me to provide the crm package from newly downloaded JAM . wanna know what is inside it, same CRM package I have received in JAM 5.0. I called BEA support, they don't even know what are they packing in their zip file. God give me a break, another chineese making americans fool!!, that is all about BEA.
  11. No racist comments[ Go to top ]

    Hey, TQ

    God give me a break, another chineese making americans fool!!, that is all about BEA.

    Okay, your anger management posts are entertaining to read, but please, leave your racist comments at the door.

    Thanks.

    --
    Cedric
    http://beust.com/weblog
  12. Benchmark Background[ Go to top ]

    Aaron,

    I think what he is saying is why waste a ton of money on Weblogic or Websphere when you can get the app server for free? The real value lies in your developers and analysts...people, not the app server.

    I am not sure where you are coming up with the proprietary stuff. If anything, by using Weblogic and all its stack, you are locking yourself into WebLogic, and their upgrade tax.

    Ever try writing a portable J2EE app across JBoss and Weblogic? We had our security system running in a couple days under JBoss, but it took several weeks, many support requests, tons of hacks, and several weblogic SP's to get it to work over there thanks to their proprietary security extensions.
  13. Benchmark Background[ Go to top ]

    I think what he is saying is why waste a ton of money on Weblogic or

    > Websphere when you can get the app server for free? The real value lies in
    > your developers and analysts...people, not the app server.

    I agree that software cannot compensate for not having good, talented, people.

    From the narrow viewpoint of the subject of this thread, performance and price/performance, it is not clear at all that substituting a free app server for WLS would improve price/performance of the entire system. And if you have hard performance constraints you need to make (i.e. guaranteed response time, which is part of this benchmark, or throughput), it may not even be an option to substitute a different app server; the app server definitely adds value in this case.

    Thanks,
    Craig
  14. Whats the point??[ Go to top ]

    Its all good and well that BEA is leading the benchmark but it appears to me like all it is is a bunch of numbers having little significance in the real world. How are you supposed to intrepret these numbers? These numbers have absolutely no meaning....
  15. Well, this only implies big enhancement from JVM1.3 to JVM1.4.
    Coz, WLS 7.0 dual node cannot compete WAS5.0.1 on multi node, both running with JVM1.3.1.
    Don't compare banana with apple, and rush to falsified conclusion.
  16. I wouldn't call it a falsified conclusion. WLS 7.0 does run faster right now. If WAS can make the move to 1.4 and then beat WLS, they should. Right now WLS is faster.

    Gal
  17. Exactly!

    Thats the price you pay for being 12 months behind the competition.

    -Nick
  18. Aside from the fact that you are locked into a jvm and have to buy new licenses for each version release which seems to be 4 times / year lately were the contributing factors to my company finally dropping them and going to a much less expensive and (in our case) better performing alternative. If weblogic is going to claim to be champion, I want to see more than just websphere as their competition. There are plenty of good app servers on the market (Whether fully j2ee certified or not). My own personal experience with Weblogic makes me skeptical. My 2 cents. BTW, have you ever tried to get service packs or support? Make that 2 more reasons we jumped ship.

    Nic
  19. Nic,

    I would like to address a few of these points:

    1) "you are locked into a jvm" First, you are in no way locked into the JVM. JRockit is 100% compliant. People are using JRockit to run any Java code, or other app servers, not just WebLogic Server. Second, if you don't want to use JRockit, you don't have to. But there is no lock basis for a lock in argument.

    2) "have to buy new licenses for each version release" As with other software products, most customers pay for maintenance, which entitles you to free upgrades to new releases. You do not have to buy new licenses with each release. BEA has also moved to a longer release cycle.

    3) "I want to see more than just websphere as their competition" We welcome others to jump into the benchmark arena. Encourage your app server vendor to publish SPECjAppServer2002 numbers.

    4) "have you ever tried to get service packs or support" I'm not sure which version you were running, but we have made a lot of process improvements around SP release criteria.

    Eric
    BEA Systems

    > Aside from the fact that you are locked into a jvm and have to buy new licenses for each version release which seems to be 4 times / year lately were the contributing factors to my company finally dropping them and going to a much less expensive and (in our case) better performing alternative. If weblogic is going to claim to be champion, I want to see more than just websphere as their competition. There are plenty of good app servers on the market (Whether fully j2ee certified or not). My own personal experience with Weblogic makes me skeptical. My 2 cents. BTW, have you ever tried to get service packs or support? Make that 2 more reasons we jumped ship.
    >
    > Nic
  20. Nic,

    >
    > I would like to address a few of these points:
    >
    > 1) "you are locked into a jvm" First, you are in no way locked into the JVM. JRockit is 100% compliant. People are using JRockit to run any Java code, or other app servers, not just WebLogic Server. Second, if you don't want to use JRockit, you don't have to. But there is no lock basis for a lock in argument.

    I happen to disagree with your point here. We were running weblogic through version 5.x to 6.x. I belive the jdk1.4 came out around the late 5.x early 6.x releases. You could not use it. Even the 7.x release which we looked at extensively was released over a year after the jdk1.4 and it still wasn't supported. When you have the runtime libraries tied to your app server, I believe that constitutes as "locked in".

    >
    > 2) "have to buy new licenses for each version release" As with other software products, most customers pay for maintenance, which entitles you to free upgrades to new releases. You do not have to buy new licenses with each release. BEA has also moved to a longer release cycle.

    It seemed like we were getting charged every time we turned around. We couldn't even get free developer licenses in the beginning.

    >
    > 3) "I want to see more than just websphere as their competition" We welcome others to jump into the benchmark arena. Encourage your app server vendor to publish SPECjAppServer2002 numbers.

    I can't say for sure where JBoss, Orion, Jonas, or any of the other app servers stand in the SPEC numbers, but from a real-world standpoint, I can tell you that our JBOSS app servers run our j2ee applications much faster than our Weblogic servers did and on the same hardware. When we switched, all of our database connection pooling problems magically went away as well. Weblogic had a tendency to leave connections open and just keep piling them up no matter what we tried.

    >
    > 4) "have you ever tried to get service packs or support" I'm not sure which version you were running, but we have made a lot of process improvements around SP release criteria.

    I tried many times to get service packs and/or support. I will admit I haven't been to your site in about a year, but it was a miserable experience at the time. I believe once, I forgot a password, and was caught in a catch 22. It wouldn't let me get a new user id because my email address was used, and it wouldn't email me my password because I was missing some information other than my userid to get that. I finally just had enough and started testing on JBoss, and Orion, found that everything worked easier and faster, and made the case to my boss who was more than happy not to renew the BEA contracts. After my initial experience with BEA, it would take next to a miracle to get me back even if you claim to be the fastest.

    Nothing personal Eric. Its just that for the amount of money we spent, I expected a lot more.

    >
    > Eric
    > BEA Systems
    >
    > > Aside from the fact that you are locked into a jvm and have to buy new licenses for each version release which seems to be 4 times / year lately were the contributing factors to my company finally dropping them and going to a much less expensive and (in our case) better performing alternative. If weblogic is going to claim to be champion, I want to see more than just websphere as their competition. There are plenty of good app servers on the market (Whether fully j2ee certified or not). My own personal experience with Weblogic makes me skeptical. My 2 cents. BTW, have you ever tried to get service packs or support? Make that 2 more reasons we jumped ship.
    > >
    > > Nic
  21. WRONG! JBoss owns this benchmark[ Go to top ]

    LOL. This is as funny as those new Apple G5 commercials!

    JBoss costs $0. Therefore WebLogic can not offer the best price/performance. Period. Just as GNU/Linux is eating up the OS market, JBoss and the coming Apache EJB Container will eat up the outrageously overpriced servers from BEA and IBM.
  22. WRONG! JBoss owns this benchmark[ Go to top ]

    This is what is so interesting about this benchmark- it is not about app server license price. The price/performance # includes all hardware, software (app server, o/s, database) and three years of 24x7 support. So a free app server does not mean a lower price/performance.

    In checking the SPEC site, I don't see any JBoss numbers, so it is hard to see how they "own" this benchmark.

    Eric

    > LOL. This is as funny as those new Apple G5 commercials!
    >
    > JBoss costs $0. Therefore WebLogic can not offer the best price/performance. Period. Just as GNU/Linux is eating up the OS market, JBoss and the coming Apache EJB Container will eat up the outrageously overpriced servers from BEA and IBM.
  23. WRONG! JBoss owns this benchmark[ Go to top ]

    It seems to me that a lot of people are posting to this and other related threads without having read the SpecJAppServer FAQ on spec.org. The FAQ contains a lot of information that will help you interpret what these results mean.

    Some things to consider:
     
    Just as one can consider publishing with a free application server, one can also consider publishing with a free database or operating system. But, as Eric pointed out, using free software does not always improve the price/performance of your system. Obviously, sometimes it does. But not always.
     
    Many people have suggested that this benchmark would be more useful if we can compare results of more than just two application servers. This is true, but you also have to ask yourself what would motivate a vendor to publish a benchmark score. If I were a vendor I would only publish a score if that score was better (or at least competitive) with the existing scores. So you may choose to read into the fact that so few vendors have published scores.
     
    Also, you need to consider that hardware vendors like to demonstrate that their hardware is the best for running application servers. As much as each app server vendor wants to show it is the fastest and most cost effective, so do hardware vendors. Some of these publications are done by the hardware vendors, not the application server vendors. In those cases, it is reasonable to assume that one of the criteria for choice of application server was that it will help sell their hardware - i.e. it is fast and cost-effective.
     
    Craig
  24. WRONG! JBoss owns this benchmark[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps being flame-bait here:
    Is JBoss really fully and satisfactory compliant? Its not a J2EE server..
    Just a rethorical question..

    I use and love JBoss, but still, it is a valid question...
  25. WebLogic Server 8.1 SP1 ?[ Go to top ]

    Some of the tests use "BEA WebLogic Server 8.1 SP1"

    Is this a service pack for WLS 8.1?

    Didn't BEA just release WLS 8.1?

    Is there already a service pack?

    http://www.spec.org/osg/jAppServer2002/results/res2003q3/jAppServer2002-20030708-00011.html
  26. WebLogic Server 8.1 SP1 ?[ Go to top ]

    Some of the tests use "BEA WebLogic Server 8.1 SP1"

    >
    > Is this a service pack for WLS 8.1?
    >
    > Didn't BEA just release WLS 8.1?
    >
    > Is there already a service pack?
    >

    WLS 8.1 was released in March 2003.

    WLS 8.1 SP1 was recently released together with the rest of WebLogic Platform 8.1.