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News: IBM promises to combine Rational with Eclipse

  1. IBM promises to combine Rational with Eclipse (38 messages)

    IBM and Rational are going to come out and explain their strategy for making its development products better integrated and easier to use. At Rational's customer conference in Orlando, Fla., company executives will discuss enhancements to the modeling and source code management tools that will likely be added over the next two years.

    It is expected that the Rational tools will be integrated with the Eclipse platform. Overhauling the underlying architecture will make it easier for developers to cooperate and will allow IBM to add features more quickly, said Mike Devlin, general manager of IBM's Rational division.

    Read:
    IBM to lay out Rational strategy

    Now it has sunk in a little, was the Rational buy a wise one for Big blue?

    Threaded Messages (38)

  2. Rational is born for IBM[ Go to top ]

    Rational was born to be acquired by IBM, imho. The ideology of Rational's product line is in line with IBM's consulting arm's approach.
  3. Excited[ Go to top ]

    For me, it looks very exciting. Eclipse now is powerful development platform, and has (maybe) biggest potential for technological improvements in the future. And with integrated Rational products Eclipse might became most advanced development platform for J2EE. I think, it's right time to move to Eclipse :)
  4. I would say...[ Go to top ]

    bolter your knowledge of coding conventions and SCM techniques. Then, use whatever you're fastest with. Personally, I'm fastest with Ant, Poseidon UML and IntelliJ IDEA.

    Best,

    John C. Dale
  5. I would say...[ Go to top ]

    True but some companies (F500 usually) want to swaddle consultants or developers in processes and documentation. For those people, this is good news. Myself? I've done a ton of development with just gvim, mozilla, ant and cvs. Anything more than that is fluff.


    > bolter your knowledge of coding conventions and SCM techniques. Then, use whatever you're fastest with. Personally, I'm fastest with Ant, Poseidon UML and IntelliJ IDEA.
  6. I would say...[ Go to top ]

    True but some companies (F500 usually) want to swaddle consultants or developers in processes and documentation. For those people, this is good news. Myself? I've done a ton of development with just gvim, mozilla, ant and cvs. Anything more than that is fluff.

    >
    >
    > > bolter your knowledge of coding conventions and SCM techniques. Then, use whatever you're fastest with. Personally, I'm fastest with Ant, Poseidon UML and IntelliJ IDEA.

    I believe UML should be driven from the source code and not the other way around. I wonder what kind of tags Rational has so that UML can be drawn well from code? Your UML engine should never, ever get in the way of coding. This is why I never used Rational in the past. I liked JVision because all you needed was Java code.

    After 14 years of using command line and emacs, I just switched to IntelliJ. I think these IDEs finally get it in that they are not supposed to intrude on your project structure and that your project needs to live outside of the IDE. Eclipse is pretty close to IntelliJ?

    Babble, babble...Sorry for it...

    Bill
  7. That's the worst thing to say[ Go to top ]

    Bill,

        You're supposed to have the diagrams finished BEFORE you start coding. Doesn't generating the diagram from the code therefore defeat the purpose?

    ~C
  8. That's the worst thing to say[ Go to top ]

    Bill,


    > You're supposed to have the diagrams finished BEFORE you start coding.
    >Doesn't generating the diagram from the code therefore defeat the purpose?

    Unless you have code already written, then what are you supposed to do? The tool should be two way, I agree. Would you accept Swing layout in an IDE that wasn't two way?
  9. It's in theory[ Go to top ]

    You're supposed to have the diagrams finished BEFORE you start coding.


    In reality, diagrams are just to convey design concepts. That's why you may have few diagrams to explain your design. You may also use them to define initial interface/contract between subsystems. After that you simply code and reverse engineer diagrams (if your boss requires).

    Nightmare comes when someone decides to draw diagrams for the whole system before coding it. Unfortunately, we should code to design. I mean you cannot design without coding, unless you are a genious. When you code you realize that you made mistakes in design, you were wrong and so on. Then you change your code, your design evolves with your code. That's the reality. There's no way to make a good design in advance.

    If you are required to keep all UMLs, then it's an overhead. Because the only way to do it consistently is to first change UML, then propagate changes in the code. It slows down everything. If your client is ready to pay for this, yes, you can do it. Usually, after some excersises with UML, people simply forget them and code. After coding's done, UML's generated.
  10. generated? pfff...[ Go to top ]

    After coding's done, UML's generated.


    Never have seen any use of _generated_ UML (other than impress non-technical people, of course). It doesn't communicate any design ideas nor gives complete system description. UML must be hand-made with all irrelevant details cut out and perhaps with some fictitious entities like 'other system'... only then it helps people think.
  11. yes, generated[ Go to top ]

    Never have seen any use of _generated_ UML (other than impress non-technical people, of course). It doesn't communicate any design ideas nor gives complete system description.


    Yes, it's a piece of crap. That's how it is almost everywhere, to my best knowledge.

    > UML must be hand-made with all irrelevant details cut out and perhaps with some fictitious entities like 'other system'... only then it helps people think.

    I hand-draw useful diagrams only. I've no time neither desire to hand-draw useless diagrams (most of them are useless).
  12. I would say...[ Go to top ]

    With XDE your code ends up looking like the following (GUIDs changed to protect innocent NICs):
    <pre>
    /** @modelguid {631F9025-E0EB-4694-A783-01E3DC378E96} */
    public class ConventionBoothValue implements ConventionBooth
    {
     /** @modelguid {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} */
     private Long id;
     /** @modelguid {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} */
     private String name;
     /** @modelguid {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} */
     private int length;
     /** @modelguid {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} */
     private int width;
     /** @modelguid {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} */
     private String description;

     /**
      * @see com.example.Super#getId()
      * @modelguid {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}
      */
     public Long getId() throws RemoteException
     {
      return id;
     }
    </pre>

    If you're using XDoclet and/or javadoc one more line of comments isn't too onerous, IMHO.

    Word,
    Dean Des Rosiers
    Digital Artisans, Inc.
  13. I would say...[ Go to top ]

    Ok, so I missed a GUID :).

    Dean
  14. I don't share your excitement[ Go to top ]

    Eclipse is fine, but I wouldn't say the same about Rational's products.
  15. Why to wait for IBM to integrate Rational Products?
    Have you tried Together WSAD Edition or Together eclipse Edition? Delicious!
  16. EclipseUML[ Go to top ]

    As a former TS insider (and user of Together since 1994 -- I recognized its power since the early days), it *is* an awesome product. However, have you seem omondo's EclipseUML? Killer...

    And, I am most recently really hot on the power of abstracting up a layer above mere modeling of classes to provide a leg up on coding... OptimalJ (www.optimalj.com) is at the business model level and leverages meta models like there is no tomorrow. OJ essentially weaves the business needs through the morass of the technical "plumbing" via major use of patterns. Cool stuff (though you have to dig into it yourself and see the power -- still working to improve some of the messaging on the website).
  17. Together -[ Go to top ]

    Hmm , a few of the custs I have talked to bought TogetherJ and never used it because their developers hated it.
    Rational Rose had some serious problems. Never seen Rational XDE though so I can't comment on that.

    The beauty of Eclipse is that it is a rich feature generic IDE. You want Rational,Together,Sybase or whatever and you can use it in a standard IDE. I think Eclipse is one of the greatest tools technologys to hit the industry.
    It is another chink in the Windows monopoly armour.

    J
  18. You aint seen nothing yet. Can't wait until the 'rational licence monitor' is 'integrated' into eclipse. Nothing like a full blown app just to monitor if you can run the IDE.

    I don't know if this is such a good idea. I prefer Netbeans+ANT.
  19. NetBeans vs. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    I know that many developers like Eclipse. Sure, Eclipse is nice but we already have all those features from Eclipse in NetBeans a long time ago. Everyone is talking about plug-ins in Eclipse, which NetBeans already offers a very, very long time ago ... ;-)

    I feel that Eclipse - NetBeans is just like JBoss - JOnAS ;-) Eclipse and JBoss have a very good marketing. In the case of NetBeans and Eclipse I already tried both:

    Eclipse:
    - Good refactoring and coding.
    - SWT is fast under Windows but if you are novice in Linux and you want to use the GTK version of Eclipse, be sure to have the newest Linux distribution. It's just too complicated to get Eclipse runs in older Linux with GTK. The motif version has a very bad looks (not my style ;-)).
    - Ant integration is not yet mature. In 2.x you only can run *one* ant task at one time. This is horrible. I use ant for execution and build management. So, this is not possible.

    NetBeans:
    - Swing is a bit slower but works fine in Windows and older Linux. Adding Plastic look&feel makes NetBeans looks very nice.
    - Ant integration is nice. You can run as many ant processes as you want.
    - The coding comfort is not as good as in Eclipse.

    For us as developers it is nice to have choices and as long as you don't use those specific functionalities from each IDE you can always replace it easily -> that's why: ant ;-)

    Regards,
    Lofi.
    http://www.openuss.org
  20. Rational, IBM, and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    At least one Rational product (Rational XDE) has been integrated with
    Eclipse well before (at least a year) its acquisition by IBM.

    And Rational XDE is well ahead of Rational Rose and I am told that
    Rose is being phased out. I found Rational XDE pretty good and doesn't
    have some of the weaknesses/clumsiness of Rose and has several
    improvements such as:
    - Good MDA support and better abstraction
    - Good patterns support
    - Better round-trip engineering, including support for reverse
      engineering interaction (sequence/collaboration)diagrams.

    XDE was built from scratch and didn't suffer from the legacy problems of Rose.

    Kalyan
  21. XDE as a Plugin?[ Go to top ]

    I have been using Rational XDE on a project for three months now. It does Class, Sequence, Activity, Use Case, and State diagramming. The round-trip engineering has caused no problems at all, but I use it only for adding and deleting methods in my classes. A more advanced use of RTE would include "binding" instances of patterns to pattern definitions. When the definition of the pattern changes, the code is updated. Refactoring from the diagram also works well, but XDE needs to use Eclipse's native tools (create class/interface dialogs as well as refactoring). Eclipse's tools are more robust.

    As of today I find Middlegen and Velocity more convenient for code generation, but my main problem with XDE 2003 is the fact that it is built on Eclipse 2.0. Eclipse 2.1 improved vastly on that release, IMHO. The ability to install XDE "over" an existing Eclipse installation would be a welcome addition.

    I've taken to using MyEclipse with Eclipse 2.1 *in addition* to XDE. That pretty much defeats the purpose of XDE. XDE could follow the model of MyEclipse, which has a subscription license module to keep track of usage.

    I would be willing to use Omondo, but I was deeply unimpressed with their free version three months ago. Has it improved? Poseidon looks very good as well, but RTE is an add-on. How well does that work?

    I can do without Eclipse's patterns. I need a really good IDE with a modeller that allows RTE with its class diagrams. XDE looks like it definitely *can* be that and is closer than anything else out there.

    Word,
    Dean Des Rosiers
    Digital Artisans, Inc.
  22. XDE as a Plugin?[ Go to top ]

    I would be willing to use Omondo, but I was deeply unimpressed with their free version three months ago. Has it improved? Poseidon looks very good as well, but RTE is an add-on. How well does that work?


    Omondo appears to have improved. It's still somewhat simplistic - but I think that can be a benefit sometimes; no need to take some fool training course on how to use a tool that's supposed to make you're job easier. I had originally downloaded the Eclipse plugin probably around 3-4 months ago and said, "pretty cool, but not quite there yet". It's now much closer to being "there".

    - Porter Woodward
  23. Yeah, its really great to hear that the powerful development Environment and a good Modeling tool like Rational are going to be integrated. I think the fame of Eclipse with a good modeling tool would do very good to the developers who are using it. I forsee that a lot of migration to Eclipse is around the corner.
  24. The company I work for is doing a medium-size J2EE project. Because Borland insists on selling Together at ludicrous prices, our purchasing dept. decided we would use Rational XDE instead.

    One of our consultants, experienced Rose user, said that XDE is actually years behind Rose. Our developers confirm this: Usability is horrible, documentation is useless. Effective use of the modelling aspects of XDE requires long experience to overcome the "gotchas", or high-priced Rational (IBM now) training.

    I'm convinced that Rational consciously neglected usability because it was earning nicely on the (necessary!) expensive training for its products.

    Rational's claims about integration of its products (Clear Quest / Clear Case / Rose modeller etc.) into a lifecycle chain are a myth. These products were developed independently, some by different companies, and their integration is abysmal. I'm particularly disgusted with the "integration" of ClearCase into Eclipse, which makes Eclipse all but unusable.

    Did I mention that XDE hobbles us to Eclipse ver. 2.1 at a time when 3.1, with substantial usability improvements, is available to non-users of XDE?

    Our company has declared Enterprise Architect as its new "standard" modelling tool, and our developers use Eclipse 3.1 unpolluted by Rational products.
  25. Rational is not user friendly...[ Go to top ]

    I'm not too pleased with the annoucement. Eclipse is a great IDE, but the times I had to work with Rational, I was always very frustrated with the laborous way the tool worked. There are other UML tools I would rather see integrate with Eclipse.
  26. I don't prefere this super-integrated IDEs. Currently I'm using Sparx
    Enterprise Architect (http://www.sparxsystems.com.au) as the UML tool and Eclipse for coding. EA has an OLE interface which could be used to read the model from within Eclipse to generate code. Or one might choose the XMI export and use AndroMDA for code generation.
  27. Eclipse and Enterprise Architect[ Go to top ]

    I agree about Sparx Enterprise for UML development, simple and fairly inexpensive in comparison to Rose. It probably has about 95% of the functionality of Rose but the interface is just more intuitive. Roundtrip engineering is too much work, if I can get the requirements and design documented properly then development is just much smoother. I like the fact with EA I can draw all my UML, add requirements, constraints, etc. and all that can be published into a nice ms-word document for distribution.

    Sounds like IBM is more interested in changing the product line for upgrades and training revenue. So many companies have invested in Rose, that's going to be an ugly transistion..
  28. I must agree with a few other posters, I never liked Rational Rose. I remember when a salesman came to our project in '96 and did a demo. He couldn't even get the demo to work. The tool was so clumsy. We tried it out and gave it up in favor of whiteboards. I tried it again when they released their 98 version. It was incredibly difficult to use. Then in 2000 I had the pleasure of trying TogetherJ. I never even read the help file it was so easy to use and intuitive. I'm really suprised IBM bought Rational. I don't think it was a good buy at all. I have some hopes for XDE but Rose just isn't very useful IMHO. Unfortunately Eclipse got really expensive, so it's not a good choice any more. What I'd like to see is a really lightweight class diagram module for Eclipse. I can do without use case diagrams, sequence diagrams, etc.
  29. UML, UML... what UML?[ Go to top ]

    Let me drop my 2 bitter cents here.

    Personally, I never have seen any sense using overhyped UML tools like Rose or Together to UMLize your project from top to bottom. UML is to communicate important design ideas being made which one can't express in javadocs - not to replace writing code. I never seen that 'round-trip engineering' really working as it was promised. It looks cool only with marketing demo consisting of five classes. And I suspect those tools are often bought by bosses in a hope that with that tool, those slow morons down the hall who call themselves 'software developers' will magically achieve unbelievable performance and quality... :)

    What I need from UML tool is that I can draw UML there and store it in convenient form. And what I don't need from UML tool is to touch my code in one or another way.

    But what is good here is that there are other Rational tools for requiments management, SCM and issue tracking (ReqPro, ClearQuest, ClearCase) which can be integrated with nice IDE like Eclipse.
  30. Rational Rose is limited[ Go to top ]

    I have never seem any tool that supports full UML. Rose lacks on basic diagrams like object diagrams and many features on the others diagrams. The collaboration diagram is so limited, that even Power Point can do better and faster.

    XDE 2002 has many bugs. My hope in on XDE 2003.
  31. UML, UML... what UML?[ Go to top ]

    Some "architects" would think you are blasphemous.

    I fully agree. I don't need no friggin UML tool to do any design or coding. It's only value (to project managers, not to me) is to draw diagrams from existing code.
  32. I disagree...[ Go to top ]

    Since using XDE I have found it very useful to "draw" my classes and their relationships. Designing and coding are two different things. When I am coding, I am in one mindset and when I am designing I am in another.

    Having had my client invest in XDE I consciously prevent myself from scribbling on paper. I open an exisiting (or new) diagram and I draw what I'm thinking of. When I talk to the BA I have a nice colorful Analysis diagram for us to use.

    When I design I have different views of my model showing different interesting "cuts." This allows other team members to get a clue quickly. As I draw, I click "Synchronize;" my code is updated.

    I can go on as long a coding binge as I like, all I need to to hit "Synchronize" and my model is updated. On an as-needed basis I go in and neaten up a diagram or two.

    Since it's Eclipse I can keep everything in CVS (the model files are binary, but there's usually only one person in a model at a time). When the suits come calling for documents I can fatten up the ol' docs with lots of pretty pictures.

    The really good part is they're valid and up-to-date.

    I spend about 15% of my time in diagrams.

    Word,
    Dean Des Rosiers
    Digital Artisans

    An added
  33. too much[ Go to top ]

    I spend about 15% of my time in diagrams.


    I wouldn't like to spend that much time drawing diagrams. It's too much for me. I know one person, whoc spends 100% drawing diagrams, and 0% coding. She can not code. I'm not joking. At first I couldn't believe that a person, who do not code, would be permitted to design.
  34. Re: too much[ Go to top ]

    She must be a genius...
  35. Design vs code[ Go to top ]

    UML is to communicate important design ideas being made which one can't express in javadocs - not to replace writing code.

    >
    > What I need from UML tool is that I can draw UML there and store it in convenient form. And what I don't need from UML tool is to touch my code in one or another way.
    >


    Amen, Amen, Amen

    Daniel
  36. VisualAge reborn?[ Go to top ]

    As a regular TogetherJ and Rational user (my boss made me do it) here are my 2C.

    > Personally, I never have seen any sense using overhyped UML tools like Rose or Together to UMLize your project from top to bottom. UML is to communicate important design ideas being made which one can't express in javadocs - not to replace writing code.

    I agree, although I wonder how useful they really are. Sequence diagrams seem the most useful to me. Class diagrams just seem to get generated from the code and then filed in the pointy haired bosses' documentation draw so he can show people doing a 'process' audit.

    > I never seen that 'round-trip engineering' really working as it was promised.

    It tends to get broken due to all the special tags that get put in code and then get edited out by people!


    > But what is good here is that there are other Rational tools for requiments management, SCM and issue tracking (ReqPro, ClearQuest, ClearCase) which can be integrated with nice IDE like Eclipse.

    You can already integrate ClearCase with Eclipse, works just like the CVS integration. But I think ClearCase is a bit of a sucky product to be honest. Maybe if you have a serious configuration management need but the firms I've worked have just used it for source control which is better done with a CVS server stuck on a Windows 2000 box IMHO. ClearCase is just so damn expensive, the pointed haired managers never have enough budget for sufficient licenses (which are all on a 30 minute window) so everyone has to wait to check code in and out. You also need a full time admin for ClearCase to get the most out of it.

    ClearQuest - yawn, big deal... why am I paying Rational money for stuff which probably took a wet winter weekend to write?

    I'm glad to hear Rose has been replaced, it always seemed very C++ oriented and has the special crash feature just when you get close to finishing your diagram.

    This integration sounds like bad news but will play well to management types. They are going to turn Eclipse back into VisualAge.
  37. XDE 2003 integrates with eclipse 2.0x using a Rational documented Registry hack. I fear tighter integration with Websphere/DB2/Clearcase/RequisitePro and less WebLogic/Oracle/CVS/Postgres. I would like to see a release schedule of the modeling tool biased towards eclipse.org stable releases.

    I would really like to see IBM decouple code generation so it can be command line driven in addition to GUI driven EJB component builds. I think XDE should integrate XDoclet or something like it when JSR-175(metadata) hits.

    WebLogic Workshop (while no UML modeling) has a great decoupled deployment philosophy of using Ant scripts and EJBGen (like XDoclet but tightly coupled to WebLogic features) so deployment and builds can happen outside of the IDE. This is great on so many levels. Dependence on WSAD or XDE to code generate for deployment is a great development feature but is a risk for deployment/support. I hope IBM moves to an XDoclet or whatever metadata standard so that deployment does not cost yet another license.
  38. i wonder....[ Go to top ]

    company executives will discuss enhancements to the modeling and source code management tools ...

    Ha. I wonder if the developers at IBM/Rational know about this yet. It could be a lot of marketing fluff and pipe dreams.
  39. IBM has many firsts to its credit and being the big blue "brother" it has always been proactive.This time it wants to take the next step in Software Development evolution by integration Rose to Eclipse.Its a visionary thought by big blue.But some facts..
       WSAD 5.1 as it needs 712 RAM minimum to qualify as a descent IDE.
       Rational Enterprise by itself needs 512 Minimum. So get ready to have 1GB RAMs ;-)
         
    Cheers!
    Sai kumar