Discussions

News: TheServerSide homepage redone in ASP.NET in Borland Janeva Demo

  1. The Middleware Company is working on an Interoperability Case Study designed to demonstrate seamless interoperability between the .NET Framework and the J2EE platform. As part of the casestudy, a live ASP.NET copy of TheServerSide's (TSS) homepage was created that talks seamlessly to TSS' existing EJB backend using Borland's Janeva interoperability solution.

    Borland's Janeva supports high performance and transparent interoperability between .NET and J2EE/Corba. Janeva generates .NET specific stubs to transparently access J2EE and CORBA servers over standard IIOP, allowing it to talk to any J2EE appserver (since IIOP is the standard transport for J2EE servers).

    The live ASP.NET copy of TSS' homepage can be found at:
    http://interop.theserverside.com/.

    The right side bar of the demonstration site also contains a tech talk with one of Borland Janeva's architects (in which he discusses Janeva and compares it to Web Services), as well as a some whitepapers: High Performance .NET and J2EE Interoperability with Borland Janeva and Converting JavaServer Pages and Servlets to ASP.NET with Borland Janeva.

    The Interoperability Casestudy will soon be posted on TMC's casestudy page:
    http://www.middleware-company.com/casestudy/

    Press Release
    ------------------------
    Borland to Participate in The Middleware Company Interoperability Case Study

    New J2EE-to-.NET Interoperability Technology from Borland to be showcased on TheServerSide.com

    SAN FRANCISCO, California – August 29, 2003 – The Middleware Company, specialists in advanced enterprise Java™ consulting and skills transfer to global corporations, today announced that Borland® Software Corporation will participate in the industry’s first Interoperability Case Study designed to demonstrate seamless interoperability between the Microsoft® .NET Framework and the J2EE™ platform. The study will be conducted using Borland® Janeva™, a new interoperability solution from Borland. The case study will be implemented according to a new application specification developed by The Middleware Company in cooperation with notable industry experts. The Middleware Company is leveraging the results and experiences from this case study to create a new Interoperability page on TheServerSide.com, at http://interop.TheServerSide.com/

    “Using neutral, third-party guidelines and Borland Janeva, we will demonstrate that an implementation of the Microsoft .NET specification can interoperate with an implementation of the J2EE specification with minimal developer effort, higher performance, and enterprise-class levels of connectivity,” said Dale Fuller, CEO of Borland. “Compared to web services or bridging technologies, Janeva is designed to provide more cost-effective and seamless interoperability. Janeva requires zero impact on existing back-end business logic, zero additional infrastructure components, and zero additional training for .NET developers in J2EE or CORBA technology.”

    “We are thrilled and impressed that Borland wants to participate in an Interoperability case study based on our specification,” said Salil Deshpande, CEO of The Middleware Company. “Participating openly in an Interoperability study based on a specification created by industry experts is an excellent way to prove the value of Borland Janeva to the market.”

    In April 2003, with the help of notable industry experts, The Middleware Company created the Application Server Platform Baseline Specification, which describes and specifies in detail a customer’s “typical” enterprise application. This specification has since become the foundation for various case studies in the industry, including Productivity, Performance, Architecture and Design, and, now, Interoperability.

    Released in summer 2003, Borland Janeva enables direct .NET-to-J2EE and .NET-to-CORBA® interoperability. Janeva also offers higher developer productivity through tight integration with such tools as Microsoft® Visual Studio® .NET and Borland® C# Builder™. Janeva enables organizations to build applications for the Microsoft .NET Framework that not only interoperate with but also leverage existing investments in J2EE and CORBA technologies, accelerating the application lifecycle for enterprises with mixed IT environments.

    Using experiences from the case study, The Middleware Company will demonstrate interoperability with a live .NET-based copy of the front end of TheServerside.com, a content-rich online portal that runs on J2EE application servers from BEA Systems, Oracle, Sun Microsystems, and others. With nearly 300,000 active members, 4 million page views a month and countless daily visitors, TheServerSide.com is the largest Java community site outside of java.sun.com.

    “TheServerSide.com was originally built as an information and community site for J2EE developers, and the fact that it was itself built in J2EE resonated with our members, even more than we expected,” noted Floyd Marinescu, Director of TheServerSide.com, a media business of The Middleware Company. “With our application server cluster we demonstrated J2EE portability; and as more and more J2EE fans start caring about interoperability, we’ll be demonstrating interoperability with a live .NET front end that will communicate with our common EJB-based backend.

    About The Middleware Company Case Studies
    The Middleware Company’s case studies are based on a functional and behavioral specification of an application that can be used in case studies of applications running in diverse application server environments, including J2EE and .NET. More information is at http://www.middleware-company.com/casestudy/

    About Borland
    Borland Software Corporation is a world leader in platform independent software development and deployment solutions that are designed to accelerate the entire application lifecycle. By connecting managers, testers, designers, developers, and implementers in real time, Borland enables enterprises worldwide to define and sustain their competitive advantage. For more information, visit: http://www.borland.com/ or the Borland Developer Network at http://bdn.borland.com.

    Threaded Messages (90)

  2. I realize the point of this, and its nice to show interoperability, but it just sounds like an april fools joke. "Java site redone in ASP.NET!"

    Of course, the real question is, which is faster? Surely we can have another benchmark battle about this? The day has started off so quietly..

    As a real question, any plans on releasing the source of the ASP.NET solution to compare the design?
  3. Microsoft IIS[ Go to top ]

    The real question is how many Microsoft secuirty patches had to be applied to IIS in the last hour since posting launching the site.

    I'll stick to other webservers thanks.
  4. Paul,
       
       Since the point of the study is to demonstrate interoperability, I don't think that a performance comparison between J2EE to J2EE and .NET to J2EE would be helpful. Rather, maybe something that compares the speeds between web services vs Janeva (IIOP) would be more relevant. Given that IIOP is an optimized binary wire protocol, I'd bet on Janeva.

    Floyd
  5. .NET??!!!

    Nay Sir, and fie upon thee! We'll have no Popery here!

    But anyhow:

    "Using neutral, third-party guidelines and Borland Janeva, we will demonstrate that an implementation of the Microsoft .NET specification can interoperate with an implementation of the J2EE specification with minimal developer effort, higher performance, and enterprise-class levels of connectivity"

    Enterprise-class levels of connectivity: Is there an IEEE or OMG spec for that one?
    Higher performance: Doesn't that really mean 'How tightly are we prepared to squeeze this?'
    Minimal development effort - Now I'm interested!
  6. I think any consulting company is heterogeneous, since clients use more than one platform. I also think that most developers are bilingual, could implement a deisgn in C# or Java, depending on the bill rate.

    However… I differ in that I think WS is the way to go to achieve inter-op, not "Janeva" aproach.

    .V
  7. However… I differ in that I think WS is the way to go to achieve inter-op, not "Janeva" aproach.


    Web services may be used for inter-organisation interobility, but CORBA (and CORBA interoperability products like Janeva) is the way to go for intra-organisation interoperablity. There are three main reasons to use CORBA over Web Services, performance (XML needs to be generated/parsed), bandwidth (XML is not the most compact format ;) ) and OO nature of CORBA. My internal tests show that CORBA is generaly several times or even order of magnitude faster then Web Services.

    Though Web Services have better interoperability and ease of use.

    Mileta
  8. I understand that for most Java/J2EE developers it's always .Net vs. J2EE. We like to believe that we've picked the right choice. However, for some of us we come into a company that has a little bit of everything. All the client/server where I work is done in delphi and will probably move to C# and .Net, and all the web interactions are done via J2EE. I keep working on growing the application server realm for a multitude of reasons, Plus all the delphi developers think poorly about us J2EE developers. But I digress, the real point I see about this article is that regardless of what architecture you go with or what the big bosses decide to through at you is that there are way of reusing and bring together different architectures to really get the job done and reuse as much code as possible. I still realize some people are after the which is overall better, but that question can have a multitude of different answers depending on who you have on your team and what they are experienced in. Sometimes it isn't the technology or the problem that pushes the solution but who you have to build it. I know sad but true, the bottom dollar is usually more important than the right solution.
  9. Hmm ... it said that it was running on the BEA server ... is that WebLogic.net?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  10. Cameron,

    The ASP.NET front end talks to TheServerSide.com's existing J2EE back end. WebLogic is one of the J2EE appservers the back end is deployed on.

    Salil Deshpande
    The Middleware Company
  11. The ASP.NET front end talks to TheServerSide.com's existing J2EE back end!!!!!!!!!!

    great , I could expect this on April 1st. do you really out of job dude to do this kind of projects?. Why don't you bring a COBOL batch or IMS online also into this drama!!!
  12. Why not implement a php version too while you're that much into it? :)
  13. COBOL TSS[ Go to top ]

    We are actually working on a COBOL version as we speak....

    ;)
  14. COBOL TSS[ Go to top ]

    We are actually working on a COBOL version as we speak....

    >
    > ;)

    Detail pls.
  15. Not too impressed...[ Go to top ]

    Well to start with, it doesnt look the same...e.g the search area...looks really ugly...then it's the member count...It sure looks weird... '304084 members', which is 148 less that what I get on the 'real' url. Now, that may or may not be important, but if that was important information...dunno...this is just what I fond, opening two tabs and comparing visually for like 30 sec. Give me some moore time and I may find moore..(how would that sound in the exec-room, yeahh..really cool thing...it may or may not work flawlessy but...it's so cool). I could do it just as well in Mozilla, File->Save Page As.. and put it on some patched to h*ll server and call it High-Tech ;) (Yes, that was a joke/provocation..).



    MrPicky

    /No, I dont want M$-stock-options....
  16. Reasons for differences[ Go to top ]

    Hi Mr. P -

    For some reason the CSS style for the Search area isn't on the windows box.
    I have told them to update the .css file and that will change.

    WRT the member count, the interop site doesn't poll the member count very often (as the TSS site does) which is why it will lag behind as new members join.

    The thing that is hard to show here is that the entire front end could look TOTALLY and even work very differently, as the entire web tier is written in ASP.NET, using Janeva to communicate with the business tier (EJB).

    It is boring to look at, as the site just looks like the normal site, so the "cool" part of the interop isn't very visual. I was actually quite surprised that the guys ran Janeva on the TSS portal app, and got stubs that could communicate with the EJBs... and it actually worked. Maybe I am a skeptic, but I never believe that things like that "just work". Then the ASP.NET developer just has some C# interfaces to talk to that happen to talk to EJBs... but they don't even care/know. Since Janeva uses IIOP, it is performant. I think it would be interesting to compare with Web Services.

    Dion
  17. Mr Picky wrote:
    >It sure looks weird... '304084 members', which is 148 less that what I get on the 'real' url


    >>WRT the member count, the interop site doesn't poll the member count very often (as the TSS site does) which is why it will lag behind as new members join.


    I'll tell You, thats one bad lag....Still the same member count as yesterday...

    Ok, I wrote I would spend some moore (yeah..I know..s/moore/more/g) time finding more errors, however, I've been busy (nitpicking others code elsewhere..).

    >I was actually quite surprised that the guys ran Janeva on the TSS portal app, and got stubs that could communicate with the EJBs... and it actually worked.

    Heh..You got this expression here that says, If You throw enogh shit at a wall, sooner or later, something is bound to stick....The question is, is it wise?

    I realise I am trolling here, sorry..but that's just how it comes out..I don't have anything against MS products...NOT (!).

    Check this out: http://www.ccianet.org/letters/dhs_030827.pdf

    Yours nitpicking
    Mr Picky
  18. once again...[ Go to top ]

    Why ANOTHER damn .NET article on this site???

    Every time I pull up this site it is talking about .NET this or .NET that.

    Get a grip TSS.
  19. I understand what you are saying Michael, but notice that this isn't just about .NET.

    The importance is that you easily interoperate with your Java (EJB) tier. This is good for J2EE, as when M$oft sales guys come in and say "switch to .NET", we can say "hey, if you need to talk to us you can. Use web services, or Borland Janeva, or <insert other bridging technology here>.

    Dion
  20. TSS can't be trusted[ Go to top ]

    Why ANOTHER damn .NET article on this site???

    >
    > Every time I pull up this site it is talking about .NET this or .NET that.
    >
    > Get a grip TSS.

    Why are you so surprised? Have you forgotten who owns TSS? ... or the PetStore fisco?

    TSS can't be trusted.
  21. TSS can't be trusted[ Go to top ]

    Mr One Way,

    I applaud TSS for eluminating any competetive weakness of J2EE, it makes J2EE better, with more eyes on it.

    As to Java ... most Java developers converted from C. First Java books were: it's like C w/ "no" pointers or maloc and it is cross platform (JRE).
    A lot of C developers pointed out that C is superior, for example it is faster and controlled GC.
    So Java developers in esence.... are disloyal. They allways tend to use the best tool for the job: SQL, JavaScript, XML, etc.

    Some companies did overspend (Ex: $70,000 per CPU for BEA, $45,000 per CPU for Oracle, $250,000 per Sun server, etc.), when Tomcat/pgSQL would have been better. Now they are finding that .Net is cometetive. (If they used Tomcat/pgSQL... is that cheaper than MS?).

    Now I wish TSS pointed out in the past that some of these things were not cost efficeint, but alas, .Net is upon us.

    .V
  22. TSS can't be trusted[ Go to top ]

    I find it amusing that some (definitely not all) Java developers are so threatened by .NET that they flame anyone who talks about it!

    .NET (and Microsoft) aren't the Borg who will assimilate you!
  23. once again... and again[ Go to top ]

    Why ANOTHER damn .NET article on this site ???

    Every time I pull up this site it is talking about .NET this or .NET that.

    AGREE.
  24. It's the Interoperability, Stupid![ Go to top ]

    The article is about interoperability not .NET. Get a grip.

    Very interesting actually thankyou. I didnot know about this Janeva thing as alternative to web services.
  25. You are the stupid one.

    IIOP and Web services are solutions to different problem domains. Listen to the interview carefully. Stateless, asynchronous v/s stateful, synchronous.
  26. You are correct ! It is not another war ![ Go to top ]

    This is about interoperability - - -

    I do not understand when the word .net is mentioned we get flairs of nonsense at TSS.
    Get a grip on your emotions J2EE gurus. Dot net will no devour your J2EE bread and butter and neither will J2EE do the opposite. Both platforms have a place in this world.
  27. once again... and again[ Go to top ]

    Since when is a langage a religion?
    When I was getting a degree they said a software engineer should be able to things quicker and cheaper….. and nothing in data structure, or algorithms or discreet structures was tied to a language. Can we not do a … binary tree search in a XYX lang?

    I think people that code Java slow, also code C# slow, and vice a versa. Yes, blame the tools.

    If clients deploy active directory, exchange, MS SQL and advanced server, instead of Tomcat/Struts/Eclipse/Linux/pgSQL/Mono equivalents, how is this TSS fault?

    If .Net is competetive, how is that bad for Java developers?

    It's about CHOICE!
    (so Sun better listen up now that we have an alternative, I wonder if they will.)

    And it is also about PO's, at least for consultants like me it is. If you give me a PO, I think "your" (C#?) langage is great.


    .V
  28. once again... and again[ Go to top ]

    "And it is also about PO's, at least for consultants like me it is. If you give me a PO, I think "your" (C#?) langage is great. "

    Exactly.
  29. choice vs monopoly[ Go to top ]

    If .Net is competetive, how is that bad for Java developers?

    >It's about CHOICE!

    Java/J2EE is about choice, indeed. I fail to see any choice in .Net world. The only vendor is MS.

    So it's about monopoly , not choice.

    I have doubts about Janeva value, too. Industry has so many standarts that can be used to make interoperable systems.
    CORBA and WS is the most common of them.

    So I would like to see WS interoperability tests, instead of Janeva. This "case study" leads people to wrong direction -
    "direct .NET-to-J2EE and .NET-to-CORBA interoperability". It's another vendor lock-in - Borland.

    It would be more interesting to see a CORBA (maybe Borland's Delphi) client invoking, for example, WEBLogic or BES.

    IMO Janeva is just a technical hack that some people want to use as a marketing tool.


    Maris
    SCJP
  30. Delphi arelady can talk to BES[ Go to top ]

    Delphi 7 can talk to BES but it uses Broland propritary technology for this.

    This is from Delphi 7 feature matrix:

    "Borland® Enterprise Server, AppServer™ Edition support for
    SIDL—build new rich applications and Web Services with the
    Delphi RAD environment that uses EJB™ for AppServer Edition"

    Ofcourse the good thing that Janeva adds is that your task is much more easy.
    Just import your EJB's and use them directly in your .NET application. When you can do somthing easyer without complex interface definitions whay not use it?

    I really don't understand whay people are talking about things that they don't know anything about?

    Also I suspect that the same feature will be available for upcoming Delphi 8 which will contain both Win32 and .NET support. Ofcourse this is all speculation from what I see in the C#Builder and also the promise Borland did with their open letter to Delphi community about new Delphi version ;-)

    Doychin
  31. choice vs monopoly[ Go to top ]

    I have doubts about Janeva value, too. Industry has so many standarts that

    > can be used to make interoperable systems.
    > CORBA and WS is the most common of them.

    Janeva is based on the CORBA standard. Since there is no official CORBA-to-C# (or any other .NET language) mapping yet, Janeva offers a mapping which is very close to the CORBA-to-Java mapping. Along the CORBA API, Janeva also supports a .NET Remotong API with a CORBA protocol (IIOP) used underneath. It is up to a developer which API to use.

    Janeva is not a proprietary solution. By choosing Janeva, you choose CORBA.

    Eugene Ivanov
  32. I agree...there is no Choice in the .NET world.

    Seems every time somebody stands up for Java they are labeled 'religious extremists' or something.

    Have we all forgotten how evil microsoft is?

    Have we forgotten all of the FUD they continue to spread about Java/Linux. (That it's a 'cancer' and 'unamerican', etc.)

    Have we forgotten the Java companies they bought up and then proceeded to KILL the products. Remember DimensionX, one of the leading Java multimedia companies:

    http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1997/may97/dmsnxpr.asp

    Where are their products now?

    Microsoft are EVIL. I'm sick of those who want to 'take it slow' or 'just get along'.

    I'm on the side of Open Source and TRUE choice.

    It's bloody war...get that through your heads. Microsoft has got their massive stockpile of weapons pointed directly at us.

    It's bloody war.
  33. Yes it is a bloody war and it was not Microsoft that started it!
    It is Sun-Oracle that it is evil. They would like nothing more than if the price of everything was like in the "good old days".

    But I hope Microsoft will finish it!:)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  34. $70 - $80000 per proc for crap[ Go to top ]

    Aah, We've missed you Rolfie! :)

    (Noisy? Probably)
  35. If I were a potential client of yours and heard this rant, you wouldn't get the job.

    As a developer, it's my job to build things. I build things given the tools that make the most sense. I may enjoy one product over another for various reasons, but if a client needs something and they have good reasons for it, then they'll get it. Whether it's .NET or Java.

    Good luck in your war. I hope you take that windmill down.

    And Rolf, we have missed you. I figure it's been so long, you must have been through 5 or 6 "How to Program in 21 Days" books by now!
  36. Hate to be an ass-kisser, but, Amen!
    Developers build things, and should use the right tools for the right job, end of story.

    I personally use Linux on my computers and develop mostly in Java, but I have nothing against Microsoft (they have som excellent products).
    If a client were to ask me to do something in .Net, I would probably get that "How to program DotNet in 21 days" book and get to work on it. ;)

    H*ll, most of us probably have a university degree, so when did we get all religious? I would like to ask for a little more pragmatism.
    I think its mostly down to people being afraid of their "investment" in knowledge in one or the other technology that drives us to this. But to be honest, with a good foundation in programming, object-orientation and enterprise architecture, how hard is it to change from Java to .Net or the other way around if a particular project demands it?

    I think our beloved Rold and the original "bloody WAR" post is all about being afraid of having to learn completely new things almost from the ground up. Good luck to you, you will probably be out of a job in 15-20 years. Something hotter than Java and .Net will probably come along, a successor that sweeps Linux away will appear, and a new hot company that whips Microsofts *ss royaly will probably have come along in that time..
  37. choice vs monopoly (it's bloody WAR)[ Go to top ]

    H*ll, most of us probably have a university degree, so when did we get all religious?


    I got master degree this year.

    All MS developers only know how to make VB forms with MS Studio.
    And that's all. Just point, drag a label onto form, and click and again and again. It leaves no room for any thoughts. Just point and click.

    I would prefer something more interesting than that kind of activity.

    >I think its mostly down to people being afraid of their "investment"

    I am not afraid of my investment. I am afraid about monopoly only.
    It wouldnt be very interesting world where everyone is writing code in VB.NET.

    To be honest I must confess that BASIC (Beginners All Purpose bla bla bla) makes me sick. Doesnt matter if it's .NET or QBasic.

    Anybody wants to convert to QBasic? No? Than what's about PowerBasic?
    That one even allows to compile executabla files for MS Disk Operating System.

    >I think our beloved Rold and the original "bloody WAR" post is all about being afraid of having to learn completely new things
    >almost from the ground up.

    New things are great - AOP, MDA to name a few.

    As long as they doesnt come from MS. Anything but please not Basic.
    Have you seen AOP and anything MDA releted in Basic (visual or not) ?

    Maris
  38. choice vs monopoly (it's bloody WAR)[ Go to top ]

    If a lot of the "religion" in these kind of talks comes from people being afraid of losing an investment of knowledge they've made in a particular technology, then a lot of the rest comes from people not knowing what they're talking about. Microsoft programming tools involve a lot more than Basic of any flavor. There are a lot of seasoned programmers out there working in C++ who have been programming since before you knew what QBasic was, and they've been using MS tools to do it. I'm not saying the MS tools are the best, just that there's more to MS and .NET than basic. Really, think about things before you post them. C++, C#, etc. Your comment that "All MS developers only know how to make VB forms with MS Studio" [sic] is just as ridiculous (and based upon ignorance) as saying that all Java developers know how to do is make applets.

    I agree that there's a lot more interesting stuff coming out of the Java development community (such as AOP and MDA) than out of a lot of the MS community. But I'm not going to start pounding my chest over it. Development languages and technologies are details. Real programming skill at a low level and design skill at a high level are pretty transferable from one language to another as long as you understand the big picture. You get hung up on the details and you'll never see this. You'll keep going on and on about your jihads and code religious wars until that happy day when you get a swarm of comments on your blog telling you how smart and righteous people think you are. In the meantime, the rest of us will have been developing, learning, and improving our craft.
  39. choice vs monopoly (it's bloody WAR)[ Go to top ]

    thanx for correcting me, but I'll add a few comments:

    >There are a lot of seasoned programmers out there
    >working in C++ who have been programming since before you knew what QBasic was, and they've been using MS tools to do it.

    MS tools ? I think that there was no MS VC++ when I learned what QBasic is.
    Those seasoned C++ programmers programmed for UNIX, before I knew what Basic is.
    Basic interpretator was one of the very first MS products not C++.

    >Your comment that "All MS developers only know how to make VB forms with MS Studio" [sic] is just
    >as ridiculous (and based upon ignorance) as saying that all Java developers know how to do is make applets.

    All MS developers I know at the company I work with. They looked an VB.NET and said that it's very different than VB they know. Of course, they decided to stick with old good VB 6.0. And I would have to do the same if I really wanted to try some MS stuff.

    And after all our customer has UNIX servers and MS stuff wouldnt work there. And we can deploy our apps even on Linux. It's a freedom to choose. Also it doesnt suffer from worms that reboot you server after each 10 minutes. I hope it's not something you would consider "religious".

    Maris
  40. choice vs monopoly (it's bloody WAR)[ Go to top ]

    No, you're right, you're not being religious. Actually, I sympathize with you because I personally find coding in VB6 to be quite painful. It sounds like you have a group of inexperienced developers who are unwilling to learn a new language. Sucks for them down the line and it sucks for you now. My point was just that those clowns aren't indicative of anything other than their own limitations. There's a lot more to programming with microsoft tools than what they can see, as evidenced by the fact that they themselves turned down the opportunity to work in .NET. If you could sell them on it, your life would be a lot easier.

    In the interest of fairness, though, I have to admit that the kind of mentality you see with the VB programmers at your job is, in my experience, unfortunately not uncommon in the VB world. There are a lot of people who program in VB who just aren't that good, and who never will be. I suppose that's a result of the way MS sold VB, as something so easy that a monkey could do it. I'm sure that if Sun succeeds with some of the initiatives it has going on right now, like Rave, we'll be seeing a lot more monkeys in the Java world, too.
  41. Drew said:
    "I'm sure that if Sun succeeds with some of the initiatives it has going on right now ... "
    Some feel that Sun has already lost to .NET. I can see their point(See Sun stock price trend or MS ASP data grid options).
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SUNW&d=c&k=c2&a=v&p=e5,m20,m100,m200,e200&t=2y&l=off&z=l&q=l
    I do not like either vendor, so who cars who wins that. Sun tries the same things MS does, except it fails. (Look at JCP for example).
    There is always non Sun Java, like jikes, j:Rockit, and Kaffe. I use jRockit on all my projects/clients (and w/ Resin v 3.0 now, with Jakarta JSTL 1.1). jRokcit is a lot better than a Sun VM.

    I really feel it is more like Open Source(Mono and Java OS) and reasonable vendors vs Vendors (Sun and MS) and other "crazy" vendors, and so far, guess who is winning:

    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html

    Surprised?
    Clients vote with PO's! Who can save me $. I can figure out where above chart will end up for Sun vs MS... and for Open Source :-)
    People might invest in other technologies and fail to deploy... but this is what ends up in production (above and bellow):
    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2003/04/10/java_servlet_engines.html
    (note the Sun iPlanet share).

    Go Tomcat, pgSQL, Linux, Struts, Eclipse, OpenOffice, iBatis, Mono, etc. What else do you need? Keep the profit for yourself, do not share the run time fees w/ "crazy" vendors. But do study .Net and keep an open mind.

    I think each project should figure out what is cheaper to develop on(cost of development, time to develop), and what is cheaper to deploy on(cost of operations, cost of down time, cost of management), total cost of licensing.
    Sometimes Linux wins, sometimes .Net wins. (I am not clear as to when iPlanet wins). I do know that MS advanced server is about $15K (Red Hat 9 is $0 – free to download). I do know MS SQL is about $5K per CPU (pgSQL is $0). Tomcat+Struts? You get the idea.

    Now if a client instead compares BEA+Oracle vs .NET... which is cheaper then?
    I think that battle is so over, just look at what the clients are doing. PO's vote! Only PO's please, noise is ... noise.
    If you want to convert from J2EE (BEA or IBM) that has EJB's, etc. you could save money by converting to C# (please pick me, pick me to help ;-} )

    Let me give you a predictor for a given client: If they are using MS Advanced server, Exchange, MSSQL: likely they will end up in C# eventually, open your books, and get the free C# from Borland.
    If they are using Linux; very likely it will stay Java.
    If they are using Slowlaris…. Hmmm… they can save money by choosing one of the above.

    So….. a vote for Linux, is a vote for Java. But I do have clients that say... "look, you get what you pay for". To which I think " A fool and his money will soon part ways".

    .V
  42. You could not be more wrong...it has *NOTHING* to do with learning new tech. I enjoy learning new stuff.

    It has to do with you all simply ignoring the evil that M$ has done to Java and Linux.

    You may not have any problem with M$, even though they are the ones behind the whole SCO mess, attempting to kill linux though the courts, but I do.

    You may not have a problem with microsoft *intentionally* removing the rmi.* classes out of their VM implementation, but I do.

    You may not have a problem with MSN *intentionally* spitting out broken content for non-m$ browsers (like opera), but I do.

    You may not have a problem with microsoft putting out cooked benchmarks but I do.

    You may not have a problem with that monopolistic company trying to crush *all* of their competition, by any means necessarry, but I do.

    Once again, microsoft are EVIL. Get that through your heads. It's not about their technology, it's about the company in general.

    Hell, what *DOES* it take before you M$ ass kissers will consider them evil?

    I guess the only conclusion that I can come to is that non of you can stomach the truth. It has become polically incorrect to pick on the poor, poor M$ and their billions. Get a grip...

    It's bloody WAR! (and M$ is not taking prisoners)
  43. Oh, grow up..
    MS breaks stuff? I dont use their VM or browser..
    MSN? Well, if they dont want non-IE users on their site, its their loss.

    MS is evil? Common, evil has nothing to do with it, they are just like every other company in the world, they just happen to be in a stronger position than 99% of other companies.
    They are in it for the money and take no prisoners, sure, but do you really think Sun or anyone else would be any different in MS position?
    ALL companies would love to destroy their competition, it just happens that MS is able to do it on a regular basis (most of the time within the boundaries of the law, sometimes overstepping, which IS bad). I am not condoning it, but neither am I condemning it.
    Morale, "Good" or "Evil" has nothing to do with it, companies are in it for the buck, wether its MS, Sun, Oracle, JBoss Group or your little code-shop on the corner. Thats the free-market, unforgiving, merciless and without emotion.
    Dont like it? Go live in Cuba, North Korea or China.
  44. Why ????[ Go to top ]

    I dont see the logic to have a microsoft link in a system that will obviously worked better without it.

    Advertising for borland...thats about it. Sooner or later people will realise that
    microsoft are dangerous, but it will be a long time from now. Our kids will probably tell us about it....why did we not see it coming...

    Fair enough, you get a m$ front-end talking to a J2EE backend. Nice to see that it can be done relatively easily. But whow ould want to. You choose one or the other in my opinion. The quality and safe way (J2EE) or the quick and dirty way (m$).

    This is the sort of thing m$ likes. Letting other people develop this new technology. But be careful boys. As soon as it is good enough, m$ will buy your ass out, use the technology and start putting their "way of doing things" into out J2EE systems. And before you know it we will have to change our systems to make sure it is compatible with the new interoperability m$ tools, that "reduce coding time" and give ayou a faster "time to market". The 10 click step to integrating the new m$ technology with your "overly complex J2EE system"

    Mark my words...it will be history over and over and over. Funny how the correlation is not made. Foresight is very good thing.

    Well there's my 2.5 cent....
  45. Why ????[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
     I dont see the logic to have a microsoft link in a system that will obviously worked better without it.

    Advertising for borland...thats about it. Sooner or later people will realise that
    microsoft are dangerous, but it will be a long time from now. Our kids will probably tell us about it....why did we not see it coming...

    Fair enough, you get a m$ front-end talking to a J2EE backend. Nice to see that it can be done relatively easily. But whow ould want to. You choose one or the other in my opinion. The quality and safe way (J2EE) or the quick and dirty way (m$).

    This is the sort of thing m$ likes. Letting other people develop this new technology. But be careful boys. As soon as it is good enough, m$ will buy your ass out, use the technology and start putting their "way of doing things" into out J2EE systems. And before you know it we will have to change our systems to make sure it is compatible with the new interoperability m$ tools, that "reduce coding time" and give ayou a faster "time to market". The 10 click step to integrating the new m$ technology with your "overly complex J2EE system"

    Mark my words...it will be history over and over and over. Funny how the correlation is not made. Foresight is very good thing.

    Well there's my 2.5 cent....
    </quote>

    I've never seen a more embarrassing post on this site. If Microsofts' competition is made up of guys like you, they'll win, and not because they're evil but because you're crazy.

    Embarrassing.

    Edward
  46. interop is good![ Go to top ]

    The reason that Microsoft will win in the end, and if you read some of the messages in this thread as an example, is that very few Java developers consider that their applications will every want to or need to communicate with anything other than Java.

    IT Managers now face two issues:
    1. connect everything together using technologies like .NET or something like an Enterprise Service Buss, or,
    2. reqrite everything in Java because there are so few Java developers willing to interop with other technologies.

    Which would you choose? Sorry, I would pick systems integrators over Java lock-in any time.

    Eamonn J.
  47. interop is good![ Go to top ]

    saying "Studiying .NET interoperability with J2EE is relevant on TSS" is exactly like Georges Bush saying that "there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq". Stop playing games with us guys, tell the truth and stop being so $$$-centric.
  48. interop is good![ Go to top ]

    Looks like we gpt idiots and fanatics on board
  49. interop is good![ Go to top ]

    "is exactly like Georges Bush saying that "there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq". Stop playing games with us guys, tell the truth and stop being so $$$-centric. "

    Um, Iraq did have WMDs. It is a fact. They used them to kill tens-of-thousands of people.
  50. choice vs monopoly (it's bloody WAR)[ Go to top ]

    Oh, men, we are all sinners... We have seen M$ has mercilessly, ruthlessly, coldbloodedly crushed, killed competitors on its way to building an evil monopoly empire, however, any other companies surely would do the same thing if they ever got chances... If any ceos were in the similar position to b. gATE$ they would have done the same thing...
  51. To clairify, it's not my war, M$ started it long ago.

    Once again, I have no problem with their products, just the company and it's evil behavior.

    From the sound of it you people would sell your firstborn to the devil if he could give you a better IDE. Because it's all about the tools. You don't want to hear about evil monopolistic companies and all they have done to hold innovation back.

    Remember all of the exclusionary deals they made with computer hardware manufacturers and ISP's that made it impossible for other OSs or browsers to take off? You may think that's ok but I don't. And by continuing to support them because you think they make nice tools, you are supporting that kind of activity.

    No, it's not *just* about the tools. It's about doing what's right. And if you think microsoft represents what is right in America, then you are self deceived.

    It amazes me how many people rush to M$'s defense (on this supposed Java board) when somebody simply tells it like it is.

    So I must conclude that you people either have no morals or are simply greed driven and don't care about what is right or wrong. You must have the M$ 'active' mark on your right hand or forehead.
  52. choice vs monopoly[ Go to top ]

    But as seems to me Janeva is exactly Corba-based. So it is not a proprietary solution. I think it is just a some solution for C# - Corba mapping

    Dmitry Namiot
    Coldbeans

    (I am not from Borland :-)
  53. You are being influenced[ Go to top ]

    TSS' agenda has definitely been influenced over the last 6 months. Either Floyd and co. do not realize it and they think they are focusing on purely technical stuff or they do realize it and are throwing out trying to influence our thinking by throwing out .NET sound bytes. Ever notice how there is a .NET news article every week on what is supposed to be a J2EE tech portal? How many of you really want to hear about this crap?

    I wouldn't be surprised if, under the guise of interoperability, http://interop.theserverside.com became TSS' shadow .NET site.
  54. Agenda[ Go to top ]

    I hope that people look at all of the facts, instead of "Oh look, there is a news post that mentions .NET! TSS is evil!"

    Facts:

    - TSS tries to post news that is relevant to enterprise Java developers.
      . Like it or not, some .NET information IS relevant in this day and age
      . We are going to have personalization features that will allow you to say "I don't care about .NET", so if you are in that category you will not see threads to ignore. However, if you are an enterprise developer who IS interested in .NET, you have the chance to say that too. Some people aren't as religious as others (and some projects require more than Java!). There will also be other ways to tag your interests (do you care about J2ME stuff? client stuff [Swing]? etc. We want YOU to get the info that YOU need.

    - TSS tries hard to promote J2EE
      . We try to get good content out to the community
        + Articles
        + Book info (chapters, reviews, etc)
        + Interviews (video and text)
      . We are active in the community, trying to push the "average enterprise developer" (e.g. JDO expert group)

    So, if you judge us, please take into account all of the things that you see us doing, and don't focus on the 0.01% of things that you see.

    Cheers,

    Dion
  55. spooky[ Go to top ]

    "However, if you are an enterprise developer who IS interested in .NET, you have the chance to say that too. "

    ...spooky. And what about enterprise developers who are interested in Linux or OSX. Will we have a chance to say that too?

    "There will also be other ways to tag your interests (do you care about J2ME stuff? client stuff [Swing]? "

    ...so we can express our choices by describing our areas of Java interest, or our interest in .NET?

    Yes or No, is there a plan for a .NET version of TSS? Yes or No? (By that I mean, a version, edition, alternate site, WHATEVER, that is focused on .NET or Microsoft?) Yes or No?


    -geoff
  56. Agenda[ Go to top ]

    Why do you call it "Your J2EE Community" then? Perhaps you should call it "Your Application Integration Community". But then, Java fans would not flock to it, would they?

    "Like it or not, some .NET information IS relevant in this day and age". Absolutely not. We can make it irrelevant if we want to. You do not have the will for it.
  57. You are being influenced[ Go to top ]

    Heh...
    Compare the 'New Content Around the Site' on the two different 'sites'...kind of funny really. Maybe not strange...but in Your context..funny ;)
  58. You are being influenced[ Go to top ]

    Mr. Code Freedom,

      To add to Dion's response, here are some principles that guide us in choosing news stories:

     - We focus on anything that is Enterprise Java
     - We report on other technologies only where we think it's something a J2EE developer should know about/something that might affect their job.
         - so if you look carefully at any post we've ever done about .NET, you'll see that there was some reason why it mattered in the J2EE world.

      We presented this philosophy to about 150 TSS members at TSS Symposium in June and the majority agreed that this is what they want from TSS and that we should continue to operate this way.

    Floyd
  59. You are being influenced[ Go to top ]

    "We presented this philosophy to about 150 TSS members at TSS Symposium in June".

    Would you call the people who attended your symposium typical of the 304252 members you have? Why not just have an online poll?
  60. Hi guys. Just wanted to say kudos for creating the ASP.NET interop site and showing off how interopertability can work. I love these clowns that think this is a religious war and Java is and can be the only solution. I am a Java developer and have been for over 7 years. But I also work in a corporate enviornment where interopertability is the name of the game. .NET is a reality and we as Java developers have to learn more about it and how Java can work together with .NET. I see articles likes these as helpful to me and people that don't should just ignore them.

    No more TSS sold-out flames please. Cheers

    --Vinny
    http://j2eeegeek.blogspot.com/

    PS: To Cameron's point, I was checking out dev2dev.bea.com to see if they had put out @ WebLogic.Net product :) Maybe that CrossGain acquisition was a good idea :)
  61. Is ASP.NET better than JSP?[ Go to top ]

    Since you performed an interop test using ASP as your front end, do you consider ASP a better technology than JSP? If not, why the test?

    Are you trying to say, you can keep your existing J2EE backend and replace your front-ends with ASP? Or are you trying to say "you can replace your existing MS backend with J2EE"?
  62. Is ASP.NET better than JSP?[ Go to top ]

    Since you performed an interop test using ASP as your front end, do you consider ASP a better technology than JSP?

    No, by performing this test, we are not trying to make a statement about the relative "goodness" of JSP vs. ASP.NET.

    If not, why the test?

    Because if we had used JSP (instead of ASP.NET) to talk to the J2EE back end, it would not have been a test of interoperability. The existing TSS codebase had JSPs talking to the J2EE back end.

    Are you trying to say, you can keep your existing J2EE backend and replace your front-ends with ASP? Or are you trying to say "you can replace your existing MS backend with J2EE"?

    Both, and neither. It does not need to be said by us. And it's not necessarily about replacement. A new ASP.NET front end app might want to talk to an old J2EE back end, or vice versa. Most enterprises we know are being forced to do one form of interoperability or the other or both. Interoperability tools and techniques will be necessary.

    Salil Deshpande
    The Middleware Company
  63. I have one simple question for all of you guys: why is this thread focused on what's clearly marginal?

    The reality of most enterprise today is mixed environments and heterogeneous architectures. .Net is much stronger on the client side than Java when considering thick clients. There are many cases where thick clients are required for superior user experience, such as in the financial vertical. For these cases Janeva is a perfect solution, enabling complete "technical" decoupling of client developers from server developers. It enables folks to take advantage of the scalability and platform neutrality of J2EE on the back-end while still being able to leverage the great UI experience provided by .Net on Windows thick clients.

    Moty Aharonovitz
    Product Manager
    Borland Enterprise Server
  64. Agree. But then, the test should have been ".NET thick client talks to J2EE backend". Instead, the test was ASP talking to J2EE backend. Like it or not, the number of JSP sites is steadily increasing and ASP sites are being replaced by JSP, clearly proving that it is what people want. So why this redundant test?

    And to add to it, they chose the premier J2EE portal as the lamb. It does not take a lot of intelligence to realize that the subtle message is "use ASP instead of JSP for your front ends". Mind tricks(intentional or not), the weak fall for it.
  65. Open source implementation[ Go to top ]

    I came across this http://iiop-net.sourceforge.net/documentation.html that can be alternative also.
  66. It does not take a lot of intelligence to realize that

    > the subtle message is "use ASP instead of JSP for your front ends".

    It does not take a lot of intelligence to realize that that is *not* the message here.

    > You are the stupid one.

    OK.
  67. Like I said "Mind tricks(intentional or not), the weak fall for it."
  68. It's the Interoperability, Stupid![ Go to top ]

    Yeah, how dare TSS actually look at what's going on in the industry and do interesting relevant tests instead of sticking their head down a hole and giving group hugs to people like Mr. code freedom.

    Shame on you TSS ;-)
  69. It's the Interoperability, Stupid![ Go to top ]

    nobody's giving me group hugs, in case you did not notice. Neither am I asking for them. Read my previous posts. Are you an expert on "what the industry is doing". Have you come across a need where ASP front end needs to talk to J2EE back end at the wire-level? How frequently do you see such a need?

    The very reason web services were invented was so that systems did not have to be changed, yet they could interop. You rarely find the need for wire-level interoperability.
  70. I read through the docs and one little question remains: Who sponsored the case study? i.e. was it paid for by Borland? Microsoft?

    If so, please add that information to the documents. It's not a bad thing for a company to sponsor a "case study" ... unless of course it happens but doesn't get disclosed.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  71. Borland is sponsoring the Interoperability case study as mentioned in the press release. Details of the full study are being defined.

    This conversion of the TSS front page is only a small step and our first experiment with their interoperability tools.

    The report written about the full case study involving a larger (different) app will have all the usual disclosures.

    Salil Deshpande
    The Middleware Company
  72. Forgot to say: Microsoft is not funding, not sponsoring, and not involved in the Interoperability case study effort, to date.

    The Performance Case Study was the one sponsored by Microsoft.

    The MDA Productivity Case Study was sponsored by Compuware.

    The Interoperability Case Study is being sponsored by Borland.

    Salil Deshpande
    The Middleware Company
  73. Sponsorship[ Go to top ]

    Does anyone find it interesting that the performance case study sponsored by Microsoft said a Microsoft product was best. The MDA study sponsored by Compuware said MDA was the best way to develop (because Compuware sells MDA tools) and the interrop study sponsored by Borland said their product was great.

    Any time a case study is sponsored by a for-profit company is very suspect... It seems that in this case, the ones being paid to do the study are saying exactly what they are being paid to say.

    I could be wrong, but we're at 3 out of 3 so far.
  74. Sponsorship[ Go to top ]

    Jay,

    That's a valid observation.

    The Performance Case Study actually had multiple sponsors, including one J2EE appserver vendor, who declined to be named. Sorry I neglected to mention that in my message above.

    Not all the sponsors of that study came out looking great.

    Our arrangement with sponsors is that we will write what we want, and only what we can stand behind. They cannot tell us what to write. They can try, but we don't have to listen.

    If, however, there is a major dispute over the results, or their interpretation, or other such matters, then we do agree that we will not publish the study until the dispute is resolved.

    This allows us to construct reasonable studies, and preserve journalistic integrity, while encouraging sponsors to participate, and providing them some assurance that we won't punish them for participating, by totally trashing their product or technology. Our other choice is to do the study without any sponsor and not have any of our costs recovered.

    As a check & balance, we bounce ideas off our industry analysts and our other contacts (some of them were in our expert panel for the spec) to make sure they are reasonable and relevant.

    So you can wonder about how many studies didn't make it to publication (there actually haven't been any, but there's no way for you to verify that) but do not wonder if we are saying something that we do not believe.

    Salil Deshpande
    The Middleware Company
  75. Sponsorship[ Go to top ]

    "If, however, there is a major dispute over the results, or their interpretation, or other such matters, then we do agree that we will not publish the study until the dispute is resolved."

    I am generally not a big fan of conspiracy theories, and I do think that .Net articles ARE relevant here..
    But.. For someone who has been involved in business negotiations the whole "we will not publish the study until the dispute is resolved." sounds an awful lot like "we will not get paid until the dispute is resolved". And as TSS is a company last time i checked, this would imply that the results of sponsored studies are "negotiable" (you have to get paid, dont you?), which does put a BIG question mark over the journalistic independence from vendors in the studies.

    I am not trying to single out TSS, what I am doing is singling out ALL "sponsored studies" everywhere, be it on TSS, MSDN or Slashdot(?)..
  76. Sponsorship[ Go to top ]

    Wille, If there are $ required to sponsor, sponsors pay before the study begins.

    Salil Deshpande
    The Middleware Company
  77. Sponsorship[ Go to top ]

    Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Because that IS extremely relevant for the picture of result credibility: when is sponsorship money paid out, in advance or when the results are published?

    If it is beforehand, that should increase the credibility.

    But you dont have me entirely convinced yet. Nothing personal or aimed at TSS.
    I just personally have a hard time trusting things with a "sponsored by X" stamp on it. But then again, I try to be critical of what I see on CNN,evening papers and my morning paper as well. ;)
  78. its more a marketing tool from Middleware or Borland than a valuable study case to show Interoperability between .net and J2EE.

    A proprietary solution like it frequently has small lifecycle and needs to be reengineered with another technology in some years.

    Corba and WS are industry standards, so I waiting to hear a strong argument to choose Janeva
  79. Even if you do love Java and think that nothing else compares, you should not close your eyes and ears to the alternatives...for research sake! I personally despise Microsoft development tools and servers, but there are some good ideas there that we can leverage.

    Consider this history: C# was actually created by the same guy that created Delphi/ObjectPascal (Anders Hejlsberg). Object Pascal predates Java and arguably has more similarities to Java than C++ (think semantics, not syntax). Java learned from Object Pascal and Smalltalk, C# learned from Java...now it's time to come full circle and let Java learn from C# (and J2EE from .Net).

    The point being, if you don't look at C# or .Net as an option, look at it as a tool for learning how we can improve Java and J2EE. Otherwise we'll all just fall behind.

    Maybe TSS isn't the big bad .Net convert that you think they are. Maybe they just think like the Godfather...

    "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" - - Michael Coreleone

    Cheers,
    Clinton Begin
    www.ibatis.com
  80. I'm sorry, but some of you people out there need to just get a grip. .NET news presented here is usually pretty relevant to J2EE. A discussion of how a Borland product integrates J2EE and .NET CERTAINLY falls in that category. The religious nuts out there need to just calm down and realize there's more to the world than Java and open source.

    I happen to work on a daily basis in both languages. Though I prefer Java for various reasons, I'm not unreasonable about it and I'm certainly not foolish enough to hate .NET. it's a fine environment and it has certainly helped Java by pushing it with competition. If you don't like it, fine, don't work with it. But if it's a major competitor to J2EE, and this is a J2EE site, then any information about it that touches the J2EE world is worthwhile.

    Please don't turn this site into another religious battleground. If you want religion, go to church or something.
  81. Nobody is disputing .NET itself. The insidious manner in which MS takes control is what we need to guard against. Why would MS buy a stake into TSS, "Your J2EE Community"?
  82. A discussion of how a Borland product integrates J2EE and .NET CERTAINLY

    >falls in that category.

    So why not migrate some .Net web site to JSP to do this "case study" ???
    Let's convert gotdotnet page to JSP (and STRUTS in addition) !
     
    > Please don't turn this site into another religious battleground. If you
    >want religion, go to church or something.

    It's not about religion, it's about CHOICE.

    Maris
  83. No, it's not about CHOICE. It's about J2EE related news, which .NET interoperability is. That news doesn't have to fit into the nice categories that you'd like to hear about to be worthwhile on this site. I may have a client who is interested in interoperability without web services, so this news would be valuable to me.

    "CHOICE" means freedom, and for a lot of people out there, freedom is their religion. That's fine. But this site isn't about freedom. It's about technology. You can make technology choices that support your need for freedom, and that's fine. There are others who make different technology choices, such as Borland or Microsoft, and as long as it affects the J2EE world, I'm interested in hearing about it.

    If I wanted to hear about "choice" and "freedom", there are plenty of blogs out there I could read.
  84. I can't say I will ever adopt much of an interest in .NET until it becomes a true cross-platform technology, however, I have been involved in porting projects where, due to time constraints, we needed to port the application in pieces. I appreciate the fact that you have brought to light there are integration resources out there that we could use if we needed. I can definitely see the benefit of porting a .NET backend to J2EE before finishing the project a few months down the road and going with true cross-platform technology on the front end as well. This is just the way the real world works. I don't think it has much to do with promoting .NET over J2EE on TSS. Thanks for the info.
  85. Bad interoperability example[ Go to top ]

    I don't think this is a good example of interoperability... how practical is it for any commercial site to front ASP and back J2EE? Iteroperability and WS-I shines for B2B, back-end-to-back-end communications.

    This being said, I think TSS needs to expose more relevent examples and papers regarding interoperability, and not just marketing prototype. I sure hope naive developers don't refer this article to naive CTOs who then give the go-ahead to redesign their web sites based on ASP-J2EE! Wait, if they are naive enough, maybe they deserve it!
  86. Bad interoperability example[ Go to top ]

    "Enterprise" assumes a mess in opinion and power
    at all levels. There are

    -- CTOs of head company witha lot of MS shares,
    -- CTOs of subsidary company trying to be
    politically/technologically independant (anti-MS)
    -- legasy systems with IBM mainframes, old Oracles,
    C, C++ programs, pl/sql, java .......
    -- 1000's developers with 10's languages
    -- 100s of mid-managers with their own technological
    preferences and (more important) their own
    political/career agendas

    Right in fron of me there is real chanse that it will be
    front NET and java/oracle back-end. It is real. I do not say it
    is good or bad. It is as it is - life...

    I really glad for people, who can sit in well organized
    J2EE environment. But do not be so stupid saying it is THE
    ONLY way in this planet...

    Alex V.
  87. Strange that on the interop site you've actually added a DOCTYPE. Of course, you've broken the rules for it, but, hey, you're strength are in your benchmarks not your coding abilities, right?

    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Finterop.theserverside.com%2F

    Main site with a forced DOCTYPE...
    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theserverside.com%2Fhome%2Findex.jsp&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=HTML+4.01+Transitional
  88. more info on Janeva[ Go to top ]

    For those who is interested to learn more technical details on Janeva (and who is not scared of microsoft.com :) MSDN hosts a webcast with Jonathan Weedon (Janeva Architect). Check it out at http://www.microsoft.com/usa/webcasts/ondemand/2341.asp

    Eugene Ivanov
  89. TSS slave whore for M$[ Go to top ]

    seems to me TSS is becoming whore for M$
  90. Hi,
    I really cannot see the ASP page, the center portion of the site throws some exceptions and it is shown right in browser. I could only see the right and left side frames(may be images), Look at the message displayed in my browser.

    exception in GetThreadViewsInForumCORBA.MARSHAL: Message contained invalid magic number. ---> CORBA.MARSHAL: Message contained invalid magic number. ---> org.omg.CORBA.MARSHAL: Message contained invalid magic number. minor code: 1447166752 completed: No --- End of inner exception stack trace --- at CORBA.Delegate._Invoke(OutputStream output) at CosNaming._NamingContextStub.Resolve(NameComponent[] n) at J2EE.Naming.InitialContext.Lookup(String name) --- End of inner exception stack trace --- at CORBA.ExceptionMapper.Map(Exception src) at J2EE.Naming.InitialContext.Map(String name, Exception e) at J2EE.Naming.InitialContext.Lookup(String name) at com.portal.asp.PortalUtil.GetQOPHome(Context root) at com.portal.asp.PortalUtil.GetThreadViewsInForum(Int32 forumID, Int32 returnCount, Int32 startAt)
    Cannot reach server
  91. Is it a religion or platform?[ Go to top ]

    I'm a new reader of TSS.

    I've been developing using Microsoft technologies and platforms for most of my professional career. Recently, my company is merging with another that uses the J2EE platform. Fortunately, our products complement each other, so we don't have to dump one product in favor of another; we can simply integrate the two. The J2EE developers could keep enhancing their product using J2EE technologies, while the .NET developers could do the same, keeping in mind that each group should factor integration with the other platform prominently into the equation.

    Currently, I'm learning how to develop and build systems using J2EE. I would like to be able to build a system that integrates and satisfies business requirements regardless of which technology or platform was used to create it.

    However, I'm appalled by the deep-seated, quasi-religious hatred for .NET that a lot of members of the J2EE community have demonstrated here.

    You guys are in danger of becoming dinosaurs with such close-minded, groupthink mentality and religious fervor; and you know darn well what eventually happened to the dinosaurs!

    Any professional enterprise developer/architech worth his or her mettle is open-minded, flexible, and adaptable to change.

    Why do you act so insecurely whenever the .N-word is mentioned? If you're so confident about J2EE, then there's no reason to act hysterically whenever TSS publishes an article that discusses .NET.

    Anyway, I'm very glad that TSS is not as paranoid and exclusionary as some of its members. On the other hand, there are many smart and bright J2EE developers that I can live with and learn from.