Discussions

News: Macromedia working on a rich client platform for enterprise apps

  1. Macromedia is working on a new initiative (code-named Royale) that will address the requirements of enterprise programmers who want to develop rich client apps. Royale will deliver a standards-based, declarative, JSP-style programming methodology and workflow, as well as runtime services for developing and deploying the presentation tier of rich client apps.

    Checkout the Royale initiatve page and FAQ.

    Macromedia to court J2EE developers (cnet).

    Threaded Messages (17)

  2. Where is the flash component built?[ Go to top ]

    It sounds like Royale will enable Flash interfaces to be built using a markup/XML language like JSP. If that is the case, where will the Flash component be built? Will the markup be converted to a Flash component on the server or will the markup be sent to the client which would then invoke a Flash plugin to render a new Flash component based on the markup?
  3. I wouldn't be surprised if it's JSF w/Flash renderers. They demoed this at the TSS earlier this year. In which case, the client could render a dataset ala flash, or it could gen a flash movie on the server-side then send it to the client. Though the latter would be less desireable I think.
  4. Royale will deliver a standards-based, declarative, JSP-style programming

    > methodology and workflow, as well as runtime services for developing and
    > deploying the presentation tier of rich client apps.

      Evidently, Micromedia hasn't yet realized that the Web is build on open royality-free standards such as HTML, CSS, HTTP and so on and thus ignores next-gen XML markup languagens for rich UIs such as XUL (XML UI Language), SVG (2D Graphics in XML) or XForms (Databinding Architecture for Web Services in XML) for example. Proclaiming that a beefed up Flash plugin is the next-gen browser that wipes out HTML is hillarious.

      A "declarative JSP-style programming methodology and workflow" a la Sun's Java Server Follies (JSF) is a dead end and gigantic kludge. The obvious solution is to create a next-gen browser propelled by next-gen XML markup languages such as XUL, XForms and SVG.

      To find out more about a true standards-based, declarative programming style for rich client apps check out the XUL Alliance site @ http://xul.sourceforge.net

      - Gerald
  5. Open and royaltee free...[ Go to top ]

    .. thats all well and good, but I would argue (without real numbers to back me up) that there are far more systems on the client with Flash installed, than there are systems that do XUL, SVG or XForms.

    There are also more websites today that use Flash, than XUL, SVG or XForms.

    Also, my bet is, if any of those standards become more prevalent, watch as multiple browser implementations embrace and extend those standards, so they become the headache that HTML/javscript is today.

    It may not be a proprietary standard, but it does have the compelling advantage of ubiquity (sort of like .PDF and .DOC formats)
  6. Before you push this site[ Go to top ]

    If the results from using XUL & related technologies are anything like your website, good luck ....
  7. If the results from using XUL & related technologies are anything like your

    > website, good luck ....

     Sumit Kishore, can you be more specific about what you find lacking at the XUL Alliance site?
  8. Surprise, surprise...[ Go to top ]

    Surprise, surprise...

    Gerald Bauer chimes in with his standard XUL/SVG mantra.
  9. Evidently, Micromedia hasn't yet realized that the Web is build on open

    > royality-free standards such as HTML, CSS, HTTP and so on and thus ignores
    > next-gen XML markup languagens for rich UIs such as XUL (XML UI Language),
    > SVG (2D Graphics in XML) or XForms (Databinding Architecture for Web Services
    > in XML) for example. Proclaiming that a beefed up Flash plugin is the next-
    > gen browser that wipes out HTML is hillarious.

    There is no reason flash couldn't be used as a parser/renderer for XUL. But it looks like flash is going away.

    Microsoft just lost the Eolas patent case against plug-ins and applets, and they have announced to the W3C that they are changing IE accordingly. Bye-bye plug-ins and applets. Bye-bye flash.

    This is why we build on open standards that no one controls. HTML and JavaScript can be a pain, but no corporation controls them, and no one can sue them out of existence.

    Oliver
  10. Kill all the Lawyers[ Go to top ]

    Microsoft just lost the Eolas patent case against plug-ins and applets, and they have announced to the W3C that they are changing IE accordingly. Bye-bye plug-ins and applets. Bye-bye flash.

    >

    From a recent W3C Document http://www.w3.org/2003/08/patent:

    "The patent claims to cover mechanisms for embedding objects within distributed hypermedia documents, where at least some of the object's data is located external to the document, and there is a control path to the object's implementation to support user interaction with the object. The implementation can be local or distributed across a network, and is automatically invoked based upon type information in the document or associated with the object's data"

    This would seem to include any serialized encoding of objects to a container application such as a browser or anything else. This is dangerous. This could include SOAP,XUL,SVG,XML or any other serialization method to do RPC or encode an object's context and internal state.

    As far as open standards, even W3C is spooked(see above ref):

    "This patent may potentially have implications for the World Wide Web in general, including specifications from W3C."

    So it looks like bye-bye XUL,SVG,XForms and bye-bye browser.

    “First thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.”
    --William Shakespeare
  11. re: Kill all the Lawyers[ Go to top ]

    This would seem to include any serialized encoding of objects to a container

    > application such as a browser or anything else. This is dangerous. This could
    > include SOAP,XUL,SVG,XML or any other serialization method to do RPC or
    > encode an object's context and internal state.
    ...
    > So it looks like bye-bye XUL,SVG,XForms and bye-bye browser.


    No, if you read the patent it is very specifically about the method for embedding program objects in a browser.

    Besides, the validity of a patent is all about non-obvious inventions and prior art. This patent was filed in 1994, so it couldn't affect XML, or RPCs, or serialization methods in general, because they already existed. EMBED tags to invoke program objects in a browser did not, or at least Microsoft couldn't find any examples.

    IBM probably has patents that cover XML, SOAP, XUL, ASCII, and the 32-bit integer. But who are they going to sue? :)

    Maybe we could just give the lawyers all their own country. Isn't there some space in central Australia?

    Oliver
  12. How Ironic[ Go to top ]

    Browsing further on USPTO's site you could even read the original scanned patent document Images ...

    using the QuickTime plugin!

    Now, imagine if you could sue USPTO....
  13. Till now flash hasnt got a great acceptance from the industry. Mostly used for first few intro pages and some advt.
      This claim by macromedia aims a lot. I would like to know how are going to improve the performance and how about " works on IE4 + but not on NS 6 " kind of issues. Although we really need some easy and great looking UI, anything executing on client side is always a "not so easy" given so many new browsers on so many new OS
    Anyway.
    Wish you all the best
  14. I think "Avalon" Longhorn UI project from Microsoft will beat "them" all
    as it will provide OS integration with Java(say C#) power ;-)
    Next version of IE will have all XML standards they see fit
    based on .NET platform- what can compare to it on the client side?
    By the way:
    1)SVG markup can be easily embeded in HTML throught Adobe SVG plugin that supports IE behaviors something like:
    <html xmlns:svg>
    <div>
    <svg:path .../>
    </div>
    </html>
    need something more?
    2)XForms is nice but bloated,base functionality=validation+submit can be
    implemented through "XML islands"+MSXML4(MSXML5 from office 2003) combination,
    something like:
    <xml id="x" src="http://...">>
    <script>
    er= x.validate();
    //XML schema validation in MSXML5 is extended by far+support
    //signatures etc. but will be replaced by .NET XML framework in the future)
    if(er) alert( "not valid");
    else{
    s= new ActiveXObject( "XMLHTTP");
    s.send( x, "http://...");
    }
    </script>
    need something more?
    When people talk about powerful features they talk about flexible
    language and rich/extendable component model-
    what if you can "markup" ANY .NET object=embed it in HTML as "first" class
    DOM infoset component and use it in C# script after that?
  15. Look at InfoPath product from Microsoft.This is browser+ app designer
    in one= very powerful development platform.
    When I ask on thier newsgroups about why it's not distributed for free(
    if you take a look on generated code and concepts of InfoPath
    you'll see that it's core component is IE browser+ MSXML5+
    IE BEHAVIORS that extend IE browser object model),no one comments on this topic from Microsoft,interesting isn't it?
    Nextgen browser(=flash player)+app designer(=flash dev. environment) now?
  16. Rich Client Galore @ XUL News Wire[ Go to top ]

    If anyone is interested in "alternative" next-gen browsers for rich UIs check out the XUL News Wire @ http://news.gmane.org/thread.php?group=gmane.comp.lang.xul.announce

    If I may highlight some stories:

    * Unofficial Microsoft Office InfoPath FAQ Site Now Live

    * Adobe Announces XDP (XML Data Package)
      
    * Sun XUL White Paper Online

    * Microsoft will ship Longhorn Betas with built-in XUL motor this fall
      
    * and many more
  17. Zulu allows for building rich client (Flash) applications using a declarative(XUL) style for more than a year now. I agree I didn't get very far with it since I am a Java developer not an actionscripter. However, borrowing concepts from the Java world, I think I managed to create an interesting architecture employing a "GUI beans container", MVC concepts, an event/listener mechanism, a plugin-aware design and declarative look and behavior. All this in a less than 50k flash movie. Have a look at Zulu and you'll see the future of the presentation layer :). One more thing: don't forget the dual nature of a flash movie: it can be embedded in an HTML page or it can run standalone as a so called "projector" executable.

    Peace,
    Ovi
  18. Conspiracy theory[ Go to top ]

    Reading the provided link to a patent story:
    there are several notes about Microsoft was
    not able to defend - for example - to provide
    "prior art" arguments...

    What if MS will be glad to kill / cut off /
    outlaw 3-rd party plugins, starting with
    java applites!!!!! is not it nice (for MS)?
    In the same time next WebForms_NET will do this
    by_them_selfs...

    And all this only for 520M... "patent looser"
    BGates is ordering champagne :-)

    Alex V :-)