Discussions

News: Red Hat Plans Open Source J2EE Server as it moves up the stack

  1. Red Hat has announced that it will be producing its own open source J2EE server. They are moving up the stack with their Enterprise Linux 3 line, which will contain an "Open Source Architecture (OSA) for the enterprise". As well as adding a J2EE application server (based on JOnAS), they will provide a clustered file system, open source messaging software, open source Kerberos, and more.

    "We're moving up the stack," said Red Hat CEO Matthew Szulik at the briefing Tuesday, adding that the value of Linux has moved from the kernel to the operating system and now to the middleware layer. "This allows us to go to even more mission-critical applications beyond the database," he said. "It's an exciting opportunity."

    In the news

    Red Hat Plans Open Source J2EE, Clustering And Other Middleware

    Red Hat moves into enterprise software
    Red Hat Moving Beyond Linux OS
    Red Hat moves beyond the OS

    What do you all think about this move? Smart for Red Hat?

    Threaded Messages (51)

  2. You forgot to mention that Red Hat will use JOnAS. I had mentioned this already in another thread yesterday.

    I guess if they would use JBo$$, this info would appear in your headline.
  3. Anybody knows where will be the JVM that run this Application Server?
    Maybe gcj?
  4. Redhat[ Go to top ]

    Yep, they try to run JOnAS with GCJ
  5. GCJ[ Go to top ]

    Hi Stephane,

    is this true? JOnAS can run under GCJ (the Open Source GNU Java Compiler)? If this is true then it would be great! Because we are planning to include OpenUSS/EJOSA into Linux Debian package and the problem is that until now we use Sun JDK... It would be easier if we can use GNU Java Compiler...Do you know the status of GCJ?

    Thanx!
    http://openuss.sourceforge.net
    http://ejosa.sourceforge.net
  6. GCJ's status[ Go to top ]

    Hi

    You can read : http://www.objectweb.org/wws/arc/jonas-team/2003-08/msg00097.html
    and the others messages that came after that conference

    C ya
    Stéphane TRAUMAT
  7. GCJ's status[ Go to top ]

    That URL isn't reachable, even if you log in... Would you mind posting it here?

    > Hi
    >
    > You can read : http://www.objectweb.org/wws/arc/jonas-team/2003-08/msg00097.html
    > and the others messages that came after that conference
    >
    > C ya
    > Stéphane TRAUMAT
  8. GCJ's status[ Go to top ]

    I´ve read that exist a package for redhat 9 that installs a Tomcat4.X that works with gcj. Anybody has tried it? ¿It really works?

    We have Open Source SSOO, Open Source DDB, Open source IDE, Open Source App Servers...... The main lack for an entire open source Enterprise Java Stack,actually is the JVM. When we haved this, Java world will be entirelly free!!!!
  9. GCJ[ Go to top ]

    Yeah, agree. I checked the homepage of GCJ, it seems that RedHat works with them closely. If they can run Eclipse with GCJ, it must be possible to run JOnAS with GCJ ;-)

    If someone has tried this, please share your experiences!

    Greets,
    Lofi.

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/ejosa
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/openuss
  10. Hi Andreas,

    sorry for my (perhaps) newbie question but, Why do you say JBo$$? Is JBoss moving to a not open source business way? If yes, please , do you mind forwarding me some URL about it?



    Thanks in advance.
    Jesus.
  11. sorry for my (perhaps) newbie question but, Why do you say JBo$$? Is JBoss moving to a not open source business way? If yes, please , do you mind forwarding me some URL about it?

    >

    The reason why I wrote JBo$$ is that JBo$$ is all about money. The same reason why some people write Micro$oft or M$.
  12. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    The reason why I wrote JBo$$ is that JBo$$ is all about money. The same reason why some people write Micro$oft or M$.

    I know that this sort of statement may seem odd, but I should clarify this, since Andreas is much too modest to do so himself.

    You see Andreas's company, SwiftMQ, actually cares nothing about money. It is, in fact, a charity. Yes, Andreas develops software that competes with the unstoppable Atlanta corporate behemoth knows as JBo$$ Group. And yes, he charges roughly $1,500 per server for it. But he would give it away for free if he could.

    But he gives all of the licensing fees to war widows with mad cow disease that have stepped on abandoned landmines. And he charges support fees to feed the Central African orphans that he has adopted into his own home.

    So when I see $mall bu$ine$$e$ like the JBo$$ Group who have formed their little company to make money, I can only think of Andreas, shake my head, and think, for $hame. I mean, for shame.
  13. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    <corby> So when I see $mall bu$ine$$e$ like the JBo$$ Group who have formed their little company to make money, I can only think of Andreas, shake my head, and think, for $hame. I mean, for shame.
    >

    LOL. Thanks for the support and comic relief corby. The andreas animosity stems from a failed business deal he wanted to do with JBoss Group. It was remove JBossMQ and ship his stuff for revenue share. It was an interesting deal but we don't do that. We don't kill open source development to do proprietary software revenue share (and trust me it has been proposed many times). Integrity.

    But in any case, the same thing is going on here. Redhat approached JBoss first to do their 'appserver'. We answered that was great but they couldn't rebrand JBoss to be red-hat server as they wanted the 'splash screen' to say "REDHAT SERVER". We also said that we needed to get into a revenue sharing model, where redhat does first/second line and we do 3rd line which is our new authorized partner program.

    They balked. WHAT? REVENUE SHARE? THAT IS NOT VERY OPEN SOURCE :) Why should redhat pay open source developers when they can actually get the whole service business for themselves?

    he he it is funny, the whole thing is funny. The whole way of thinking of the business world, and how invisible or rather 'phase shifted' it is to most of us. I felt so naive in my first business deals, i still do. Everyone posing like virgins and friends of the open source when it is all about the money.

    At least we got our street creds, we the developers founded JBoss Group and we retain some business integrity, we are professional open sourcers.

    Peace and onward,

    marcf
  14. Rebranding[ Go to top ]

    <marc>
    But in any case, the same thing is going on here. Redhat approached JBoss first to do their 'appserver'. We answered that was great but they couldn't rebrand JBoss to be red-hat server as they wanted the 'splash screen' to say "REDHAT SERVER". We also said that we needed to get into a revenue sharing model, where redhat does first/second line and we do 3rd line which is our new authorized partner program.
    </marc>

    Sorry Marc, could you please elaborate on this? Why can't RedHat rebrand JBoss into "RedHat Server" as long as RedHat put the result back into Open Source? LGPL does not restrict you on rebranding. And why did RedHat ask first, if they want they can fork JBoss code as long as they still put it Open Source? It's different if they ask you to support them or they want to use JBoss name...

    Thanx!
    Lofi.
    www.openuss.org
  15. Rebranding[ Go to top ]

    Sorry Marc, could you please elaborate on this? Why can't RedHat rebrand JBoss into "RedHat Server" as long as RedHat put the result back into Open Source? LGPL does not restrict you on rebranding. And why did RedHat ask first, if they want they can fork JBoss code as long as they still put it Open Source? It's different if they ask you to support them or they want to use JBoss name...

    >

    It is not that they can't, legally they can.
    We were not interested in a deal where they would rebrand us completely and wanted co-branding.

    marcf
  16. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    LOL. Thanks for the support and comic relief corby. The andreas animosity stems from a failed business deal he wanted to do with JBoss Group. It was remove JBossMQ and ship his stuff for revenue share. It was an interesting deal but we don't do that. We don't kill open source development to do proprietary software revenue share (and trust me it has been proposed many times). Integrity.

    First of all - and everybody doing business with you should keep that in mind - you make internal mails public. I recommend to let Fleury sign an NDA before going into confidential details, otherwise you'll find your letters on TSS.

    Next is my animosity. No, it was not the failed deal. In fact I'm glad it never happend. Remember that I don't told you anything about revenue share but sent you a more general letter to check the matter. I got an answer where you told me the length of your dick (you know, your download numbers and all that megalomaniac stuff). At that time it was clear to me that we don't make a deal now and in future because all you want was to sell me a spot on your poor partner webpage at 20K/yr. So, no, it was not the deal, it was/is your nasty attitude.

    > At least we got our street creds, we the developers founded
    > JBoss Group and we retain some business integrity, we are
    > professional open sourcers.

    You have lost your credits already.

    Someone will throw you out, Fleury. And many people will clap their hands then, including me.
  17. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    Someone will throw you out, Fleury. And many people will clap their hands then, including me.

    >

    Dude, we just didn't take your deal because it didn't make sense. Deals die all the time, get over it.
  18. Pease an open source[ Go to top ]

    Oky, everyone has his point of view. Personnaly, i prefer JOnAS to JBoss but i'm not "against" Jboss and his famous manager.

    We changed of world, we are no more in vendor lockin world, wtih per user licence. We are now running for Open Source ( a lot of us and more again everyday ).

    JOnAS and JBoss are both for Open Source but have different point of view, so, we just take our roads and we will see at the end what will be...
    Anyway with Open Source, everybody could be a winner ;)

    Don't forget that the open source already won, the only problem is that we don't know when it will happend !!

    Peace
    Stéphane TRAUMAT
  19. Peace in J2EE ![ Go to top ]

    I remember the what they called "trolling" threads on Linux:
    linux against windows,
    redhat against debian against mandrake againt the rest of the world

    perhaps it is because RedHat comes into the J2EE play ground but it seems we wins all the trolls, here.
    stop stupid arguments ... we re adults and not teenagers.

    I find JBoss very "update" on the new specifications (EJB, JDO) and new concepts (AOP)
    IMHO, Jonas is less active ... I meet JBoss everywhere in the IT dpt inside the big companies ... they use it as development application server... and some in production...

    I am under the control of a confidentiality clause ... but I can promise you will see Jboss in every countries in the world!

    Do you have the same with Jonas ?
  20. I believe that economics students learn that competition develops the market.
    (not the IT students?)

    It's no time for something or somebody (is it Marc ?) to go out. On the contrary, it was a very bad new to throw away Bluestone and iPlanet corp for the application servers market.
    IMHO, there will be place for every business models... even if for someone there is some business model that are evil!
    good challenge to see RedHat on the block.
    anyone knows their Java Enterprise Framework ? a CMS and portal based on opensource java.
  21. CMS RedHat[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    anyone knows their Java Enterprise Framework ? a CMS and portal based on opensource java.
    <quote>

    yes, it was a long time ago. Gee... this was really a long time ago..., this was the ArsDigita Company (http://www.arsdigita.com/)... It was a mix of AOLServer (tcl) and Java. The tcl one is now becoming http://openacs.org and the Java version is getting closed-source CMS RedHat...

    You can still find the old version of ArsDigita:
    http://eveander.com/arsdigita/

    Regards,
    Lofi.
    http://www.openuss.org
  22. CMS RedHat[ Go to top ]

    I don't their license exactly, but I ve seen the source code.
    (I remember the "strange" com.arsdigita. packages ;-) )
    very simple CMS , in comparison with the commercial competitors ...
    but I will say simple is more efficient... (look at the numbers of PHP sites)
    FYI
    http://www.carrefour.com/english/homepage/index.jsp uses RH Java stuff
  23. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    <corby> So when I see $mall bu$ine$$e$ like the JBo$$ Group who have formed their little company to make money, I can only think of Andreas, shake my head, and think, for $hame. I mean, for shame.

    > >
    >
    > LOL. Thanks for the support and comic relief corby. The andreas animosity stems from a failed business deal he wanted to do with JBoss Group. It was remove JBossMQ and ship his stuff for revenue share. It was an interesting deal but we don't do that. We don't kill open source development to do proprietary software revenue share (and trust me it has been proposed many times). Integrity.
    >
    > But in any case, the same thing is going on here. Redhat approached JBoss first to do their 'appserver'. We answered that was great but they couldn't rebrand JBoss to be red-hat server as they wanted the 'splash screen' to say "REDHAT SERVER". We also said that we needed to get into a revenue sharing model, where redhat does first/second line and we do 3rd line which is our new authorized partner program.
    >
    > They balked. WHAT? REVENUE SHARE? THAT IS NOT VERY OPEN SOURCE :) Why should redhat pay open source developers when they can actually get the whole service business for themselves?
    >
    > he he it is funny, the whole thing is funny. The whole way of thinking of the business world, and how invisible or rather 'phase shifted' it is to most of us. I felt so naive in my first business deals, i still do. Everyone posing like virgins and friends of the open source when it is all about the money.
    >
    > At least we got our street creds, we the developers founded JBoss Group and we retain some business integrity, we are professional open sourcers.
    >
    > Peace and onward,
    >
    > marcf

    Marc, I'm glad you exposed Mr. Mueller and RedHat. If the JBoss bashers knew half the crap that happens behind the scenes they probably would have an entirely different attitude.

    Bill
  24. Very Sorry for the for my comment[ Go to top ]

    Dear Andreas, Marc, and others...
    I'm very sorry that my first comment

    <Jesus Guerra>
    sorry for my (perhaps) newbie question but, Why do you say JBo$$? Is JBoss moving to a not open source business way? If yes, please , do you mind forwarding me some URL about it?
    </Jesus Guerra>

    and the following Andreas' answer to me

    <Andreas Mueller>
    The reason why I wrote JBo$$ is that JBo$$ is all about money. The same reason why some people write Micro$oft or M$.
    </Andreas Mueller>

    started this little trouble.

    Please, I think it isn't a "good pattern" (sorry for the bad joke) to clean private affairs on this website.

    We're all proffesional dudes and we all have a lot of problems with each other every time but with this attitudes we aren't teaching "good practices" (sorry again for the java joke) to the community.

    Just my 0.02 cnts.

    As Cameron always says ... "Peace"

    Jesus Guerra.
  25. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    At least we got our street creds, we the developers founded JBoss Group and we retain some business integrity, we are professional open sourcers.

    > >
    > > Peace and onward,
    > >
    > > marcf
    >
    > Marc, I'm glad you exposed Mr. Mueller and RedHat. If the JBoss bashers knew half the crap that happens behind the scenes they probably would have an entirely different attitude.
    >
    > Bill

    Oh my god, Marc and Bill, at least I really love you guys. Marc, you will always have street cred in my eyes. Bill, you big Irish hunk...I have no words...

    // Another Boss
  26. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    Bill

    >
    > Oh my god, Marc and Bill, at least I really love you guys. Marc, you will always have street cred in my eyes. Bill, you big Irish hunk...I have no words...
    >
    > // Another Boss

    ROTFL. Now I see what he meant with "street creds"! He meant "Christopher Street Creds". ;-)
  27. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    Marc, I'm glad you exposed Mr. Mueller and RedHat.

    > If the JBoss bashers knew half the crap that happens
    > behind the scenes they probably would have an entirely
    > different attitude.
    >
    > Bill

    See above for my comment, Porky.
  28. SwiftMQ[ Go to top ]

    I know that this sort of statement may seem odd, but I should clarify this, since Andreas is much too modest to do so himself.

    >

    That is true. I prefer to "let call names". As I mentioned earlier; it doesn't take me much effort to let my enemies call my product name.

    > You see Andreas's company, SwiftMQ, actually cares nothing about money. It is, in fact, a charity. Yes, Andreas develops software that competes with the unstoppable Atlanta corporate behemoth knows as JBo$$ Group. And yes, he charges roughly $1,500 per server for it. But he would give it away for free if he could.
    >

    SwiftMQ doesn't compete with them and it is only USD 990 per server.

    > But he gives all of the licensing fees to war widows with mad cow disease that have stepped on abandoned landmines. And he charges support fees to feed the Central African orphans that he has adopted into his own home.
    >

    Nice joke. How long does it take to phrase it out?

    > So when I see $mall bu$ine$$e$ like the JBo$$ Group who have formed their little company to make money, I can only think of Andreas, shake my head, and think, for $hame. I mean, for shame.

    Oh these poor grabby megalomaniac out of Atlanta there. $niff, $niff.
  29. Andreas Mueller[ Go to top ]

    LOL.

    It is a shame though that the server side hasn't had the insight to build a decent forum system that would allow the readers to moderate trolls such as Mr. Mueller into oblivion. Let him post (free speech and all) but why do I have to wade through his garbage?
  30. Mark as Noisy[ Go to top ]

    C R -

    As a TSS member, if you feel that a particular message is "noisy", you can click on the "Mark as Noisy" link. As soon as there is a little consensus, the thread is hidden. The power is there :)

    Dion
  31. Mark *Person* as Noisy[ Go to top ]

    Yeah but what I'd like is a way to mark a person as noisy, kind of like a 'kill' list in a news client. There's definitely a small minority on TSS (as in all such forums) who consistently post flames and trolls, and I'd like to be able to filter them out.

    Doesn't mean I want to hide those posts from anyone else, I just don't want to see them myself.
  32. And the winner is... JOnAS :D[ Go to top ]

    You forgot to quote the article u linked :
    " This product will be based on JOnAS (Java Open Application Server), from European middleware consortium ObjectWeb, Stevens said. Red Hat last month announced it joined ObjectWeb."

    Yes :) JOnAS is winning !

    Stéphane TRAUMAT
    Try our JOnAS development framework : http://joffad.sf.net
  33. Great job for JOnAS[ Go to top ]

    I apologise for missing that info. I have changed the news post.

    I think this is great news for Red Hat and JOnAS. I look forward to seeing what comes out of this!

    Dion
  34. Are we getting a good documentation this time or this is going to be the same old game...
  35. Does anyone else out there see Red Hat as the real evil empire. All they do for a living is take other people's work and sell it. They are NOT a technology company they are a packager of other people's work. They make wrapping paper if you will.

    The real question to me is how can this not piss off the companies that made reh hat who they are, the ISV and systems vendors, like BEA, Oracle, and IBM. Without support from these companies RH is dead. Now they are competing with these companies in an area where they all make LOTS of money. I can not see IBM, BEA, and Oracle saying OK RH, we will let you take the 3-5 billion in app server sales, none of them can afford this especially BEA and Oracle.
  36. this is good...[ Go to top ]

    Hopefully we will get a j2ee server that is bundled as part of the redhat install and integrates well with the OS/kernel version.

    Considering the huge price tags for these app servers from IBM/BEA.. I guess this makes linux a more compelling platform. But I also wonder why they do not just bundle tomcat and apache?
  37. this is good...[ Go to top ]

    JOnAS is bundle with Tomcat.

    Apache don't have EJB container.


    c ya
    Stéphane
  38. Geronimo is under developing[ Go to top ]

    Apache is developing their own J2EE Application server Geronimo, i think it will come soon
  39. Geronimo is under development[ Go to top ]

    I think they won't finalise something before a long long long moment...
  40. If you didn't already know, Solaris 9 has a integrated version of Sun's Application Server 7, Platform Edition for FREE deployment since January '03. This is installed along with Solaris.
  41. Competition...[ Go to top ]

    This is a viable competetive strategy for RH. Honestly, I got butterflies when I heard about the announcement.

    IMHO, I think Sun is behind it all - the latest barage of competetive moves coming from Sun have probably been planned for a long, long time.

    Bombs away!

    Best,

    John C. Dale
  42. Competition...[ Go to top ]

    IMHO, I think Sun is behind it all - the latest

    > barage of competetive moves coming from Sun have
    > probably been planned for a long, long time.

    ACK.
  43. Appservers are a commodity now. The very nature of opensource licenses allows this. Your complaint should be against the license.
  44. No need to attack Redhat[ Go to top ]

    Does anyone else out there see Red Hat as the real evil empire. All they do for a living is take other people's work and sell it. They are NOT a technology company they are a packager of other people's work. They make wrapping paper if you will.

    >

    Arun,
    last time I checked, Redhat employ a fair number of people who actually work on the Linux kernel, installer, etc. Yeah, some of what they do is what other Linux distro people would call 'proprietary,' but some of the work done by RH employees does make it into the 'core' Linux codebase.

    And I seem to remember that anyone can d/l the latest version of Redhat for free, install it on as many boxes as they like, without paying a cent to Redhat.

    cheers,
    Pratik
  45. No need to attack Redhat[ Go to top ]

    And I seem to remember that anyone can d/l the latest version of Redhat for free, install it on as many boxes as they like, without paying a cent to Redhat.

    >

    I talked to a VC one day that mentioned that RedHat made sure the distros are on slow boxes so that you wait for ever. He said that with a chuckle as in "oh man we pull wool over their eyes don't we, he he, we so smart". I personally had good experiences downloading it so I don't know but I remember that comment left a bad taste in my mouth.

    I think the model of "packager" still stands though, redhat is not a technology company say like a SUN or IBM or Microsoft or JBoss Group ;) they sell you licenses, although they call it subscriptions, so all your boxes are paid for. It is packaging but at least they are profitable. Profitability is good, in an old fashioned way.

    I got to say. I like microsoft at least they are straightforward about their ambitions and business model. They are out to kill us and they say it, much better, much cleaner.
  46. Status of Jonas?[ Go to top ]

    Jonas is new to me (heard of it, but never used it), I am thinking about downloading it and taking it for a test spin.
    How does it stack up against the competition? J2EE compatibility and compliance?
    performance? Pros/cons compared to, oh.. say JBoss (and others)? Any clear drawbacks?

    Objective opinions(thats a contradiction..) and views would be appreciated..

    Cheers
    / Wille
  47. Satus of JOnAS[ Go to top ]

    From my point of view...

    JOnAS is compatible with J2EE 1.3 and they are really very serious about it.
    Performance are very fine, some benchmarks said jonas is better but i'm not sure

    The thing why you should take JOnAS : The support !!
    they have the best one i've ever seen, the mailing list very rich and peoples always replies to you ( the one who write JOnAS )

    It's a wonderful product, a good alternative to JBoss

    Stéphane
  48. ObjectWeb and OpenUSS[ Go to top ]

    We (OpenUSS: Open Source J2EE eLearning platform) are a heavy user of Enhydra (Servlet Container) and JOnAS (EJB Container). Check the story about OpenUSS and ObjectWeb:
    http://solutions.objectweb.org/stories.html

    We also provide EJOSA (Enhydra and JOnAS Application - Enterprise Java Open Source Architecture) Template for template- and component-based development using Enhydra and JOnAS. Check this link:
    http://www.theserverside.com/discussion/thread.jsp?thread_id=21541
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/ejosa

    We are very happy with JOnAS and Enhydra performance. OpenUSS saves every single files in BLOB. This can be quite hard for the EJB container, if many students download their lectures at the same time ;-) But thanks to cluster and load balancer, we can always expand the server hardware ;-).

    The KISS principle and very good documentation make them a very good choice for every J2EE beginners.

    If you are interested in EJOSA Template, you can read this docu:
    http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/ejosa/ejosa1.3.5-doc.pdf?download

    We are expecting to get more users at our University of Muenster OpenUSS installation next semester (there are other OpenUSS installations in internet...) and we are counting on the new project of ObjectWeb C-JDBC to handle the clustering of our Open Source Firebird database. Because until now you can cluster Enhydra (Servlet Container with Enhydra Director), you can cluster JOnAS (EJB Container) but you cannot cluster your DBMS. C-JDBC would be the solution.

    Hope this helps!

    Lofi.
    http://www.openuss.org
  49. Status of Jonas?[ Go to top ]

    Jonas has been maturing lately (last few months) really fast. J2EE compliance is very good, there's few EJB QL restrictions still but that seems to be all.

    We're not very far from situation where we can seriously think of competing with commercial application servers in some installations. Really.

    So, you should definitely test Jonas. It's a straightforward no-nonsense implemantation of J2EE spec.

    Sami Lehtinen
  50. Status of Jonas?[ Go to top ]

    Yes, JOnAS is currently J2EE 1.3. It is currently on the way towards J2EE 1.4 (version 3.3 that will be released this week will provide first J2EE 1.4 parts). It has effectively been comparable to some commercial app servers in some operational environments. It is more
  51. Status of Jonas?[ Go to top ]

    Sorry my previous answer was not complete. I just wanted to say that there are more and more JOnAS developers and users, that the mailing list is very active (thus providing a very responsive support). There are of course already operational uses of JOnAS.
    JOnAS provides some high level features such as its user friendly management GUI, its scalability/performance, the support of Web Services, clustering solutions, multi-RMI-protocols support and it modular services architecture.
    It embeds many high level quality open source software components from the ObjectWeb consortium and from Apache.

    François
  52. Doesn't matter. Linux belongs to SCO anyway. All of it including stuff that hasn't been written yet :-)