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News: What's New in the JCP: Votes, JSRs and a new process

  1. What's New in the JCP: Votes, JSRs and a new process (28 messages)

    Onno Kluyt, director of the Java Community Process, briefed TheServerSide on points of interest within the JCP. He discussed the upcoming JCP Exec Committee elections, JSRs that have generated a lot of interest, and JSR 215, the update to the JCP process itself. Onno felt that with JCP 2.6, we will be close to having a good balance with respect to the transparency of the JSRs, and the public will be able to see more of the processes and spec lead decisions.

    What's new about this year's JCP Exec Committee elections

    On the "Big Java" side of the house (J2SE), Sun is nominating Fujitsu, HP, IBM, and Oracle (all on the EC currently). Doug Lea's seat is up this year, and he is expected to run again (go Doug!).

    On the mobile committee side, Sun has a new nominee in the form of Vodafone. There has been talk that service providers should be more involved in the process, and that is where Vodafone comes in.

    JSRs to be excited about

    Onno seemed excited about some of the JSRs that are almost done with the red tape.

    - JSR 151: J2EE 1.4: Sun waited for WS-I Basic Profile, but now the time has come. J2EE 1.4 will officially be out there as soon as the votes are in from the EC vote. This is expected to be completed by the end of the year.

    - JSR 168: Portlet API: The portlet API is coming up on final approval, and should come through that soon.

    - JSR 220: Enterprise JavaBeans 3.0: We should see EJB 3.0 around the time of JavaOne next year if all goes well. It will be very interesting to see what the expert group comes up with, as they try to get some Ease of Development, piggy-backing off of the fact that they can use metadata.

    After all of this, fun will start with J2EE 1.5!

    The new JCP process, version 2.6

    The new JCP 2.6 should be complete before the end of the year. It goes into Public Review next week. What are the changes?

    - Draft reviews will now be public
    - We will be able to monitor the status of a particular JSR more closely (hopefully we won't see anymore "what the hell is happening with the JCache JSR?)
    - We will be able to see what the expert group is currently working on, including design decisions that have been made.
    - The spec lead will be more visible
    - The TCK requirements have been firmed up. There will be a minimal set of requirements that a spec lead can use as a measure for "ahh, my TCK is done".

    J2EE 1.5 may be one of the first large APIs to use the new JCP (but who knows).

    Onno was frank in that he knows the general public would probably want the process to be even MORE transparent, but he really feels that JCP 2.6 strikes a good balance for all parties.

    What are your thoughts? If you have ideas and comments, get involved now! If you are in the New England area you can even meet the JCP Executive Committee on Tuesday, September 30th, 2003.

    Threaded Messages (28)

  2. Don't bother. Viva the Java Republic![ Go to top ]

    but he really feels that JCP 2.6 strikes a good balance for all parties.


      I guess it helps that Onno gets a bi-weekly paycheck from Sun and who knows what else.

    > What are your thoughts? If you have ideas and comments, get involved now!

      I suggest rebranding the Java "Community" Process (JCP) to the Java Cartel Process (JCP) to reflect more accurately it's true nature.

      For those peace loving doves who think you can reform Sun if you just ask super nice and shutter at the heresy of proclaiming the Java Republic allow me to point out Andy Oliver's (of Apache POI fame) noble effort to try to Rethink The Java Cartel Process (JCP).

      Andy Oliver has setup a Wiki @ Java.Net to work out the hard question such as:

    1. ProposedRestrictionsOnSpecLeads
    2. ProposedPolicyOnNonDisclosureAgreements
    3. ProposedMembershipOfExpertGroups
    4. ProposedProtectionOfIntellectualProperty
    5. ProposedInteractionWithOpenSource
    6. ProposedRulesOfDecisionMaking

     - Gerald

    PS: For a more fair and balanced look at the JCP may I point out Elliotte Rusty Harold's article titled "The Java Gated Community Process"

    In case you wonderd: Who is Elliotte Rusty Harold?

    Here are some of Elliotte's books:
    * Effective XML
    * Processing XML Using Java
    * XML in a Nutshell
    * XML Bible
    * Java Network Programming
    * and many more
  3. <marketing plug ahead!>
    This is your chance to tell us what you like and don't like about the
    JCP. For the next couple of weeks we're running a survey to gather
    input. You can participate here:
    http://63.170.131.3/surveys/jcpsurvey.htm
    </marketing plug ahead!>

    With kind regards,
    Onno Kluyt
    Director, JCP Program Office
    Sun Microsystems, Inc.
  4. Onno It's Your Turn To Participate[ Go to top ]

    This is your chance to tell us what you like and don't like about the

    JCP.

    Onno, why don't *you* answer some questions for a change? Community is all about dialogue, isn't it? It's not a one-way street to enrich the Sun empire.

    Let's get started, shall we?

    Can you explain what you or Sun means by community as in Java "community" Process?

    Can you explain how NDAs (non-disclosure agreements) foster "community" spirit?

    Can you explain how fair it is that all IP (intellectual property) ends up in Sun's portfolio and how this matches with Suns "community" talk.

    - Gerald
  5. Onno It's Your Turn To Participate[ Go to top ]

    Gerald,
         Please place your foil helmet back and your head and refrain from posting on TSS until your Prozac arrives.

    Thank You.

    -- suez
  6. RI for JSR 168?[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps this is a good opportunity to ask. Onno, what is the status of the R.I for JSR 168 (Portlet API)? Can you give an unambigous answer?
  7. RI for JSR 168?[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps this is a good opportunity to ask. Onno, what is the status of the R.I for JSR 168 (Portlet API)? Can you give an unambigous answer?


    As far as I know IBM is planning to post the RI as a project on Apache. You should contact the IBM spec lead for the definite answer. You can his contact details on the JSR 168 web page: http://jcp.org/jsr/detail/168.jsp.

    Onno.
  8. RI for JSR 168?[ Go to top ]

    This is wonderful news... I think that the more transparency in the JCP process the better. Having RI's available either on java.net, apache.org, sourceforge.net , or wherever is a great thing.

    I am encouraged to see progress being made, and since I work for one of the companies on the EC, I understand how sometimes things take longer than one may like, but nonetheless am happy with the progress being made.

    That being said, there's always room for improvement, but good job.

    Rob
    http://www.robsite.org
  9. Onno Your Silence Speaks For Itself[ Go to top ]

    This is your chance to tell us what you like and don't like about the

    > JCP. For the next couple of weeks we're running a survey to gather
    > input. You can participate here.

      Onno why don't you discuss the Java Cartel Process out in the open? What do you fear?

      To get started allow me to repost three questions:

      * Can you explain what Sun means by community as in Java "community" Process?

      * Can you explain how NDAs (non-disclosure agreements) foster "community" spirit?

      * Can you explain how fair it is that all IP (intellectual property) ends up in Sun's portfolio and how this matches with Sun's "community" talk?

      - Gerald
  10. Onno Your Silence Speaks For Itself[ Go to top ]

    I think most parties concede that JCP is not ideal, and this is one attempt to help fix it. There are things that trouble me about JCP, but frankly you're _way_ over the top. If you think JCP is bad, go pick up some C# and .Net, and discover what real pain is.

        -Mike
  11. Why Not Start With An Open Dialogue[ Go to top ]

    If you think JCP is bad, go pick up some C# and .Net, and discover what real

    > pain is.

      Sorry, to break your bubble. C# is an open royality-free standard and Java is not. For some fresh insight may I suggest Anne Thomas Manes (The Burton Group)'s blog story titled "On Openess".

      Anyway, back to the JCP. Don't you think that if you want to fix the JCP that it's best to start with an open dialogue?

      - Gerald
  12. Using C# As A Role Model For Java[ Go to top ]

    may I suggest Anne Thomas Manes (The Burton Group)'s blog story titled "On Openess"


     Allow me to quote the passage so you don't need to click through. Here we go:

    C#, on the other hand, is a de jure standard. Microsoft submitted the specifications to ECMA, which in turn fast-tracked them through ISO. In doing so, Microsoft released all intellectual property in the core C#/CLI platform to the public domain. No one needs a license to implement C#/CLI. This was the condition that Sun couldn't accept when it tried to submit Java to ECMA.
  13. Using C# As A Role Model For Java[ Go to top ]

    Gerald,

    If it wasn't for the fact that you have to buy a license and comply with Sun's WORA terms for Java, we would all be using J++ right now.

    Java as an ECMA standard will most probably cause fragmentation, you would have to Open Source Java and the only real open source license that should prevent fragmentation in Java is the GPL.

    I can just imagine what Jonathan Schwartz and Scott McNealy have to say about the GPL behind closed doors.
  14. Java as an ECMA standard will most probably cause fragmentation, you would have

    > to Open Source Java and the only real open source license that should prevent
    > fragmentation in Java is the GPL.

       Well, dare I say that Sun (ab)uses the Microsoft forking myth to justify it's tight control. It's just a lame excuse that doesn't hold up. Has Microsoft forked Linux? Perl? Apache? PHP? Samba? and so on. Of course not and they all use different licenses.

      - Gerald
  15. Gerald,

    Look I would be happier (as would most people) if Java was at least handed over to a vendor Neutral organization never mind Open Sourced.

    However having looked at your site I realise that very few of your arguments actually have any merit.
  16. Look I would be happier (as would most people) if Java was at least handed over

    > to a vendor Neutral organization never mind Open Sourced.

      Now, if you sit back and wait do you think it will ever happen?

      Why not put pressure on Sun to open source the Java core to help secure the future of Java as an open royality-free standard? I've written up a Take Action Now plan at the Viva! site. You might wonna have a look if it's not too much of an effort for you.

      Also note that I embrace a diversity of tactics and the IBM lead Eclipse consortium including such light-weights as HP, Intel, SAP and many others is a great example.

      Viva The Java Republic!

      - Gerald
  17. Listen dude,

    If I where to support any action to make Java Open Source it most certainly would not be your movement.
  18. Join The Anonymous Java Republicans Today[ Go to top ]

    If I where to support any action to make Java Open Source it most certainly

    > would not be your movement.

    anon anon, why don't you start your own group the help further the cause. How about the Anonymous Java Republicans (AJaR)?

     - Gerald
  19. Join The Anonymous Java Republicans Today[ Go to top ]

    Dude,

    Maybe if your movement didn't sound like some insidous front for Fidel Castro and if you actually made some sense in your arguments people might actually take you seriously.
  20. Anon Anon - Are You A Sunny Boy?[ Go to top ]

    if your movement didn't sound like some insidous front for Fidel Castro and if

    > you actually made some sense in your arguments people might actually take you
    > seriously.

      anon anon, do you think anyone takes you serious with your name? Dare I ask if you are a sunny boy?
  21. Anon Anon - Are You A Sunny Boy?[ Go to top ]

    I keep myself anonymous so that people like you don't get hold of my details and spam me!
  22. Anon Anon - Who is the spam boy?[ Go to top ]

    I keep myself anonymous so that people like you don't get hold of my details

    > and spam me!

     anon anon, the only one spamming the forum is you. If you get paid to enforce the Sun party line, why not say so? Nothing to be ashamed of, everybody has to make a living.

     Hiding behind anon anon hardly helps your credibility and neither does your tactic of hurling insults at everybody who dares to disagree with the Sun party line.

      - Gerald
  23. Anon Anon - Who is the spam boy?[ Go to top ]

    Yes I am secretly employed by the Evil Scott McNealy to spread the insidous Sun FUD. We regularly sit together in his Office and Gloat about how we plan to screw the all poor Java developers till their meager wallets run dry so we can add to the huge cash hoarde stored in a secret underground vault at Sun's Head office.

    Dude I've had enough of playing your silly game.

    Go inflame someone who cares.
  24. very funny[ Go to top ]

    You must be joking, are you not? What Microsoft has standardised amounts to 3 or 4 of the 250 JSRs and even that has to be seen in the light of their existing monopoly that prevents fragmentation of their platform in the first place. If you are advocating the handing over of power to truely vendor independent organisations (as I do), then you shouldn't give unproportionate credit to Microsoft's fig leaf tactics and bash the JCP for the sake of it.
  25. very funny[ Go to top ]

    You must be joking, are you not? What Microsoft has standardised amounts to 3 or >4 of the 250 JSRs and even that has to be seen in the light of their existing >monopoly that prevents fragmentation of their platform in the first place. If you >are advocating the handing over of power to truely vendor independent >organisations (as I do), then you shouldn't give unproportionate credit to >Microsoft's fig leaf tactics and bash the JCP for the sake of it.


    I'm not bashing the JCP at all (although I quite enjoy bashing Microsoft for the fun of it).

    I'm just saying that without Suns Licensing terms Microsoft would have got away with creating VJ++, in that case the fact that Java wasn't Open sourced helped. If Java was open sourced then the only real license that would have forced Microsoft to give back what they forked would have been the GPL. I can't see Sun going GPL on Java thoug.
  26. very funny[ Go to top ]

    My reply was to Gerald's C#-as-a-role-model posting, not to yours. (The threading structure in these forums is really hard to visualise somtimes ...)
  27. Another Quote[ Go to top ]

    And Gerald, allow me in turn to quote a different passage of the same article:

    > But C#/CLI is just the platform foundation. You also need a bunch of frameworks on top of the foundation to create a complete application platform. Mono has cloned a number of higher-level .NET class libraries and frameworks. These higher-level services are based on Microsoft proprietary intellectual property. Microsoft has filed a series of patents on higher-level .NET APIs. These patents assure Microsoft's control of the complete .NET platform. So even though C#/CLI is open and non-proprietary, the .NET platform isn't.

    Is this the kind of role model you want us to believe in?
  28. Regarding EJB:

    <quote>
    Mapping standard: If you use CMP, and use multiple app servers, the mapping is totally different. P want to try to have some kind of base standard that would work as a default, and minimal information.

    Dynamic EJBQL: There was a hint that this will be in EJB 3.0.
    Would be nice to be able to run queries that return a data structure which spans multiple tables, without having to go to multiple entities. At the moment people use fast reader patterns to bypass EJB for this task
    </quote>

    The same mapping problem occurs with different JDO implementations - I believe that it is enough to have it there. Using Hibernate for persistence allows to have the same lightweight mapping descriptor in any J2EE container that you can think of, even without deployment descriptors and dedicated deployment steps. And persistence of lightweight objects, be it Hibernate-style POJOs or JDO PersistenceCapables, is preferable to using Entity Beans anyway - by far.

    So instead of making the EJB spec even larger than it is today (>600 pages) by adding even more fixes to the misguided Entity Beans and EJBQL, I'm all for deprecating Entity Beans completely, especially CMP. Compared to Hibernate or a decent JDO implementation, is there a single advantage of CMP? Personally, I'm convinced there isn't. And if you really need heavyweight components around your persistent objects, you can always add BMP wrappers for the latter.

    <quote>
    Interceptors: People really want to see these. Even the future (AOP) was mentioned.

    Deployment descriptor defaults: People would like to put in default values for the items that we always have to put into vendor specific files. For example, let us just put in the damn JNDI name, and <*-ref> end points etc etc.
    </quote>

    Let me note that the Spring Framework's bean configuration in combination with its AOP support allows for replacing the most important Local Stateless Session Bean service with an extremely lightweight solution: You can leverage declarative transactions with simple POJO beans that do not even have to be Spring-aware - they just have to implement some business interface!

    Adding custom interceptors to a Spring bean is very easy, and there isn't any need for a deployment descriptor because interoperation of multiple beans works via simple bean references instead of JNDI registrations.

    <quote>
    Transaction Timeout configuration: There are some times, when you know a certain operation needs a long tx timeout (as it will take awhile). Instead of having to drop to bean managed transactions, how about being able to use declaritive programming to set a longer timeout that the default for a particular method/bean.
    </quote>

    The Spring Framework's abstract transaction support allows for the full power of transaction definitions, including timeouts. It can be leveraged by templating, i.e. with a simple transaction callback implementation, or declaratively via Spring's AOP TransactionInterceptor.

    There are default implementations of Spring's PlatformTransactionManager SPI for JTA, JDO, Hibernate, and single JDBC DataSources. The latter two even support specifying custom isolation levels, via exactly the same high-level transaction demarcation mechanism!
  29. cross post[ Go to top ]

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1277071,00.asp
    FYI
    .V