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News: Sun and JBoss forge agreement for J2EE certification

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  1. Sun and JBoss forge agreement for J2EE certification (25 messages)

    • Posted by: Dion Almaer
    • Posted on: November 18 2003 11:09 EST
    JBoss Group have come to an agreement to license the J2EE 1.4 technology compatibility kit, from Sun, to certify the JBoss application server. JBoss Group did not receive a scholarship to achieve J2EE certification (compared to Apache Geronimo).

    JBoss Group has created "The JBoss J2EE Founders Program" to help collect the resources required for the certification.

    Founders include Unisys, IONA, webMethods, Borland and others.

    Press Release: J2EE 1.4 Specification Wins Unanimous Vote of Approval From the Java Community Process

    Read more: Sun, JBoss forge Java agreement

    In related news:

    JBoss Group will indemnify its customers against any claims relating to copyright or patent issues.

    Bob Bickel, vice president of strategy and corporate development for the Atlanta-based company, said, "We're trying to make open source safe for commercial use."

    Bickel said of JBoss customers: "If someone approaches them with any copyright or patent claims, they can shove that back to JBoss and we'll handle it."

    Read more: JBoss to Protect Customers Against Copyright, Patent Suits
    Reply to this

    Threaded Messages (25)

  2. Lets get this finished!!![ Go to top ]

    I am not a fan of either JBoss or marcf...but I would be happy to see JBoss finally get certified and move onwards and upwards.


    Regards,
    Tom Pridham
    Reply to this Reply to original

  3. cost?[ Go to top ]

    So JBoss Group had to pay and Apache didn't? Anybody know what the cost was to JBoss Group?

    I like what JBoss Group is doing. Removing barriers in the decision matrixes of evaluating companies. The indemnification is a great idea too, it takes the FUD out of SCO. I heard HP did the same with their Linux products.

    Hans
    Reply to this Reply to original

  4. cost?[ Go to top ]

    "The company will pay an estimated $500,000 per year for the certification, according to a source familiar with JBoss's plans. Bickel would not comment on the costs."
    Reply to this Reply to original

  5. cost?[ Go to top ]

    "The company will pay an estimated $500,000 per year for the certification, according to a source familiar with JBoss's plans. Bickel would not comment on the costs."


    Wow! 500K! Extorsion. JBoss Group is really stepping up to the plate.

    Hans
    Reply to this Reply to original

  6. Jonas[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    First, I don't think that $500k is that bad. Consider all of the people Sun employs for Java. To pay $500k/year for the certified J2EE brand is a bargin.

    Oh, the reason I placed this message is that I heard that Sun is speaking with Jonas. Is there any word on that deal being worked out?

    Mike
    Reply to this Reply to original

  7. JBoss[ Go to top ]

    First, I don't think that $500k is that bad. Consider all of the people Sun

    > employs for Java. To pay $500k/year for the certified J2EE brand is a bargin.

    Yeah, it's only when one group needs to pay for it and others get it for free when it becomes a fucking joke.

    Sun needs to die. The sooner they die the better for everyone. Open Source J2SE and J2EE.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  8. JBoss[ Go to top ]

    I agree. Sounds like Sun was looking for a way to shakedown JBoss. When you consdider that large profitable companies like IBM are part of Apache or that France Telecom is part of ObjectWeb, the hypocrisy becomes all the more apparent.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  9. JBoss[ Go to top ]

    they should start by firing that pony-tail schwartz dork.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  10. JBoss[ Go to top ]

    I agree. Sounds like Sun was looking for a way to shakedown JBoss. When you consdider that large profitable companies like IBM are part of Apache or that France Telecom is part of ObjectWeb, the hypocrisy becomes all the more apparent.


    IBM isn't part of Apache.

    IBM is a regular commercial J2EE licensee just like JBoss, BEA, Macromedia, ...
    Reply to this Reply to original

  11. $500K is not that much[ Go to top ]

    An average J2EE consultants here in London costs £400 ($600) per day, so the yearly $500K is like dedicating 3 fulltime people for one year.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  12. $500K is not that much[ Go to top ]

    The cost of a consultant is an interesting point because that's probably part of the additional economic bite of certification on top of the licensing cost--it probably costs the salary of one or two people full-time to go through with the testing.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  13. $500K is not that much[ Go to top ]

    Maybe I am mistaken, but I think that the other J2EE certified vendors pay for the J2EE certification. It's just just JBoss. That's the price you pay for using Java. It's a bargin considering how many people Sun has working on it and how much marketing money that put into making Java a great brand.

    If you are complaining about the $500/yr, go program use MS. Then you're really know what if feels like to f-ed. Sun gave Java to the world for free, but ask for a fee to be J2EE certified. You should be greatful.

    Mike
    Reply to this Reply to original

  14. JBoss[ Go to top ]

    Maybe I am mistaken, but I think that the other J2EE certified vendors pay for

    > the J2EE certification.

    Maybe you haven't followed the news lately. The certification can be had for free if you set up a non-profit facade to "hide" the fact that the server is being developed for a commercial company.

    I agree with the previous poster who said SUN and the J2EE certification is a joke.

    > considering how many people Sun has working on it

    I guess you haven't noticed that JCP is mostly free labor for Sun.

    > If you are complaining about the $500/yr, go program use MS.

    JBoss running on .NET platform. Mmmmm. Now that would be really nice!

    /T
    Reply to this Reply to original

  15. JBoss[ Go to top ]

    Think some people are missing the point here.

    JBoss Group are being asked to pay (like IBM, BEA, Sybase, Oracle et al.) because they are a commercial organisation. The fact that the JBoss App server is given away free, as 'open source' software, is the complication here.

    You can't compare JBoss to Apache Geronimo or Jonas, as even though there are 'sponsoring' organisations involved with both of these projects, none of the sponsors actively then trade on the name, or the product, for commercial gain. If Jonas gains certification, what do Bull gain? Nowt! If JBoss gains certification, what do JBoss Group stand to gain? Doesn't take a genius to work that one out.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  16. JBoss[ Go to top ]

    If Jonas was the most popular Open Source J2EE app server, would Bull be able to benefit from it financially? You bet!

    Sun's certification is a joke. The company is a joke. It deserves to disappear.

    /T
    Reply to this Reply to original

  17. How will OSS developers work on TCK?[ Go to top ]

    What I want to know is can the JBoss open source community work on the TCK certification? There are many non JBoss Group employees who contribute to the codebase.

    I agree with Thomas. There are companies that will directly benefit from certification of Jonas or Geronimo. RedHat and Bull to name a few. I think Jonas and Geronimo should have to pay the same amount of money as JBoss. If they can't afford it, they should do what JBoss Group has done, and get other companies to pitch in. If they are such a popular app server, this should be no problem, right? Otherwise, just remove this ridiculous TCK tax altogether.


    Hans
    Reply to this Reply to original

  18. How will OSS developers work on TCK?[ Go to top ]

    What I want to know is can the JBoss open source community work on the TCK certification? There are many non JBoss Group employees who contribute to the codebase.

    >
    > I agree with Thomas. There are companies that will directly benefit from certification of Jonas or Geronimo. RedHat and Bull to name a few.

    Any company, including the JBoss Group LLC, can benefit from Jonas or Geronimo.

    > I think Jonas and Geronimo should have to pay the same amount of money as JBoss. If they can't afford it, they should do what JBoss Group has done, and get other companies to pitch in.

    Effectively, Sun did. It's their license and support that they provided the scholarship for.

    > If they are such a popular app server, this should be no problem, right? Otherwise, just remove this ridiculous TCK tax altogether.
    >
    >
    > Hans
    Reply to this Reply to original

  19. How will OSS developers work on TCK?[ Go to top ]

    What I want to know is can the JBoss open source community work on the TCK certification? There are many non JBoss Group employees who contribute to the codebase.

    > >
    > > I agree with Thomas. There are companies that will directly benefit from certification of Jonas or Geronimo. RedHat and Bull to name a few.
    >
    > Any company, including the JBoss Group LLC, can benefit from Jonas or Geronimo.
    >

    Same holds true for JBoss. Any company, included Sun, can benefit from JBoss. JBoss is open source, licensed as open source(same license as Jonas) and distributable by anybody. Anybody can provide professional services on for JBoss and there are a few companies besides JBoss Group who actually do.

    Also, go check out the Jonas site. There is a support link. Guess who offers exclusive support? Bull. No different than what JBoss Group does, except the Group is a bit smarter and direct about their pitch.

    > > I think Jonas and Geronimo should have to pay the same amount of money as JBoss. If they can't afford it, they should do what JBoss Group has done, and get other companies to pitch in.
    >
    > Effectively, Sun did. It's their license and support that they provided the scholarship for.
    >

    Its no secret that JBoss is killing and will kill any attempt at the adoption of Sun ONE(or whatever it is called now). What Sun did could be interpreted as unfair business.

    Hans
    Reply to this Reply to original

  20. How will OSS developers work on TCK?[ Go to top ]

    Same holds true for JBoss. Any company, included Sun, can benefit from JBoss.

    > JBoss is open source, licensed as open source(same license as Jonas) and
    > distributable by anybody. Anybody can provide professional services on for
    > JBoss and there are a few companies besides JBoss Group who actually do.

    IANAL, but since Marc has the trademark for JBoss, how could anyone claim "We provide services for JBoss" without violating that trademark? Wouldn't they have to get permission first?

    As for distribution, I agree that anyone can distribute it, but can they do so and call it JBoss? Wouldn't that also require the permission from the trademark-owner?

    If anyone knows how OpenSource licenses and trademarks interact in this kind of situation, I'd be interested to know.

    /Rickard
    Reply to this Reply to original

  21. How will OSS developers work on TCK?[ Go to top ]

    IANAL


    You sure aren't.

    > since Marc has the trademark for JBoss, how could anyone claim "We provide
    > services for JBoss"

    How can anyone claim they provide Java(TM) services since Sun owns the trademark? Wouldn't they have to get permission first?

    Think.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  22. How will OSS developers work on TCK?[ Go to top ]

    since Marc has the trademark for JBoss, how could anyone claim "We provide

    > > services for JBoss"
    >
    > How can anyone claim they provide Java(TM) services since Sun owns the
    > trademark? Wouldn't they have to get permission first?

    Nope, because Sun has explicitly stated how "Java(TM)" may be used (http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/). But, for example, it is not allowed to use the Java(TM) logo at all unless one has permission from Sun.

    AFAIK there is no similar page for JBoss.

    But, this really has nothing to do with JBoss, as such. I suppose the same applies to Jonas. I'm mostly curious how OpenSource and trademark ownership applies in general. If anyone knows of an article (or similar) that discuss this issue, it'd be interesting to read about.

    /Rickard
    Reply to this Reply to original

  23. How will OSS developers work on TCK?[ Go to top ]

    Hans: Its no secret that JBoss is killing and will kill any attempt at the adoption of Sun ONE(or whatever it is called now). What Sun did could be interpreted as unfair business.

    On the latter "unfair" point, I don't have enough knowledge to form a strong opinion, but there are a few signs that support what you are suggesting.

    However, on the former "killing" point, I think you just made that up. Do you have any specific information or statistics that would support your suggestion? My guess is that SunONE (or whatever its nom du jour is) will see some major use now that Sun is (a) giving it away and (b) has finally figured out a licensing scheme for its software that makes sense in a corporate environment (the "Java Desktop" thingie.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  24. How will OSS developers work on TCK?[ Go to top ]

    I think Jonas and Geronimo should have to pay the same amount of money as JBoss. If they can't afford it, they should do what JBoss Group has done, and get other companies to pitch in.


    >>Effectively, Sun did. It's their license and support that they provided the scholarship for.

    So JBoss Group is subsidizing free certification for Jonas and Geronimo? I bet Marc Fleury and company love that thought.

    As for Rickard's question, my understanding is that anybody can say they provide services for JBoss the way you could say you provide services for a Toshiba photocopy machine. You just couldn't say you provided "Toshiba-authorized" service.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  25. Make JBG Pay themselves[ Go to top ]

    It was not too long ago that marc was bragging that he could pay for the J2EE certification straight away (check the forums on TSS i'm sure somebody will find it).

    So i still wonder why other companies are paying for it ..ie the J2EE Founders Program ... ..
    Reply to this Reply to original

  26. Make JBG Pay themselves[ Go to top ]

    The only reason I can imagine that companies would pay for JBoss's J2EE founders program is that they see value in it. There's no gun to their head to join.

    That is what you call voluntary subsidization as opposed to involuntary subsidization: making JBoss pay, while giving it away to ObjectWeb and Apache.
    Reply to this Reply to original