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News: Article: Java AND .NET, not Java versus .NET

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  1. Article: Java AND .NET, not Java versus .NET (31 messages)

    • Posted by: Dion Almaer
    • Posted on: December 02 2003 08:45 EST
    The SDTimes have come out with an article backing what a lot of people have said in the industry... Java and .NET are both around, and interop is key. The article discusses the drive towards the Service Oriented Architecture, and how this shared commitment on the part of Microsoft, IBM and BEA unites the camps.

    Are we getting less religious about this debate? (or have the majority always been less religious)

    Some choice quotes:

    From the customer standpoint you have to be practical,” said Bob Sutor (IBM). "It is critically important to avoid the religious wars."

    "[Enterprise developers] don’t care whether it’s Java or .NET," said Rob McGovern, senior project manager at Infusion Development Corp., which provides developer training and consulting services in both Java and .NET. "They say, ‘Make it work. Make it fit my time frame. Make it fit my budget,’" he said.

    "Enterprises tend to grow organically. Technologies are adopted in pockets—sometimes for technical reasons, sometimes for political reasons," added IBM’s Sutor.

    "I don’t care if it’s J2EE or .NET," he said. "My driver is time-to-market, not standards."

    We shouldn't be surprised. Enterprise developers are always living in some kind of heterogeneous environment.

    Hopefully we can keep using J2EE as the main back end, and .NET can mainly be used for WinForms? ;)

    Read: Java Versus .NET?: In enterprise shops, Java and .NET is more like it

    In somewhat related news, In search of a gentler Java again discusses the perceived need for a simpler java.
    Reply to this

    Threaded Messages (31)

  2. No mention of Sun??[ Go to top ]

    Is the potential rumor that the lower Sun sinks (and loses interest in Java) the more IBM will start to get involved? Does IBM plan on adopting Java in the near future?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  3. No mention of Sun??[ Go to top ]

    I thought IBM has already adopted Java. May be the SDO thingy is a start to bypass JCP :)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  4. No mention of Sun??[ Go to top ]

    Most of the enterprise features of the Java platform have been either coming from IBM or from a group that IBM is leading with other ISVs. Sun's big problem is that they haven't realized a big financial payoff from Java where a large company such as IBM can see an immediate payoff as the glue between their zillions of disparate systems (and those of its competitors). I don't think an IBM-owned Java would ditch the JCP and risk alienating the community. Still, it's nice to see that people realize that, although Sun might go away (hopefully not!), that both Java and .NET are here for the longterm.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  5. No mention of Sun??[ Go to top ]

    Who are you and who cares what is dead for you, I hope there are some people that respectfully disagree with your private opinion.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  6. No mention of Sun??[ Go to top ]

    Who are you and who cares what is dead for you, I hope there are some people >that respectfully disagree with your private opinion.



    And you are respectfully disagreeing?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  7. No mention of Sun??[ Go to top ]

    Sorry for breaking in your flaming attempt but I think yes, most of us do. I think most of us respectfully disagree with everyone thinking that something has more or less credibility if it has been written on a major or minor IT magazine/portal.
    I think most of us believe on news that personally we feel they make sense.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  8. .not for me[ Go to top ]

    Go drag and drop a button
    Reply to this Reply to original

  9. .not for me ?[ Go to top ]

    Go write a 10 lines of code to create a button.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  10. GRAMMER[ Go to top ]

    Java solves this for me 2
    Reply to this Reply to original

  11. .not for me ?[ Go to top ]

    Actually its 2, but have fun creating the ActionListners and working with your layouts.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  12. .not for me ?[ Go to top ]

    Actually its 2, but have fun creating the ActionListners and working with your layouts.


    Sorry for the typo its ActionListeners. Where is the spell check?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  13. Close your VB.NET for dummies and have a look at this:[ Go to top ]

    http://wwws.sun.com/software/images/products/I1_JS_creator_lg.jpg
    Reply to this Reply to original

  14. which ones is dummies did you say?[ Go to top ]

    "1)Application availability and performance is generally average to poor:
    At their worst, applications average only 60 percent attainment of performance targets. On average, only 42 percent of applications perform as planned on their initial deployment.

    2)J2EE applications comprise a complex ecosystem of components:
    The source of J2EE application problems is code-related only 13.7 percent of the time. In 86 percent of cases, the source of application performance issues lay in other areas such as in the connections to the databases, connections to mainframes, etc.

    3)Diagnosing J2EE problems takes too long:
    In 40 percent of cases, the first notice of an application problem is a customer or key executive complaint. In 30 percent of the organizations, problem diagnosis takes more than a full day"

    2003 Wily Benchmark Survey of J2EE Application Performance and Availability
    http://www.wilytech.com/news/releases/031120.html

    Some comments from theserverside and Javalobby

    "The main cause of application instability is pointless complexity"

    "If people work on systems with this kind of down time they should look for a new software and system architect."

    "The bottom line is that way too many of the J2EE applications deployed in enterprises today have absolutely dismal performance"

    "J2EE and especially EJB's are way to complex and slow."

    "The trick with J2EE is to use it but not use it"

    "a heavy handed, ridiculously complex, gross way of writing business logic and communicating."

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
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  15. which ones is dummies did you say?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf is that really you?

    Back spreading your garbage? I love it. I almost missed you. Things were much more ridiculous around here when you posted. While I think I got dumber most of the time when I read your posts, I still got lots of entertainment time out of it.

    Glad you're back. Sort of...


    Jason McKerr
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  16. which ones is dummies did you say?[ Go to top ]

    Don´t you think that this is a really unnecessary discussion? It´s full of private opinions - not facts.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  17. No mention of Sun??[ Go to top ]

    Daniel,

    I partially agree with you. I think history has given sound proofs of IBM's eternal inability of conducting a serious marketing strategy to something different from hardware. Examples may be Smalltalk, OS/2, OpenDoc and so on.

    Even if I personally think JCP is slowing down the Java potential growth, IBM owned Java does not seem to me an added value option to Sun.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  18. .Not is dead[ Go to top ]

    .Not and windoze 2003 .not server is just too buggy and full of security holes.
    We are using java and linux .Not is dead to us.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  19. .Not is dead[ Go to top ]

    Jamie,

    you sound like somebody who is a bit afraid of the unknown. Mind if I ask if you just heard/read about the bugs and the security flaws or if you tried .Net by yourself? If the latter, I'm sure you can backup your claims with some samples you coded (meaning "not googled").

    bob
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  20. .Not is dead[ Go to top ]

    Really?
    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1400446,00.asp
    Reply to this Reply to original

  21. .Not is dead[ Go to top ]

    Really?

    > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1400446,00.asp

    N K,

    Nobody says that Linux doesn't have problems. But how many servers actually got nailed by this. You also have to compromise and ccount to be able to use this exploit. The numbers right now seem almost negligible.

    And why did it get fixed so quickly and in the fashipn that it did? Because it is in fact open source. Do a little more research. The SuSE and RedHat teams found and made a fix for the vulnerability. I'm not anti-MS, but ask yourself if that really would have been possible in the Microsoft world.

    Jason McKerr
    Reply to this Reply to original

  22. .Not is dead[ Go to top ]

    that should read:

    "You also have to compromise an account" instead of
    "You also have to compromise and ccount"
    Reply to this Reply to original

  23. .Not is dead[ Go to top ]

    that should read:

    >
    > "You also have to compromise an account" instead of
    > "You also have to compromise and ccount"

    We really need a spell check here.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  24. But how many linux servers actually got nailed by this ?[ Go to top ]

    Actually - all of them.

    Go patch your server.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  25. But how many linux servers actually got nailed by this ?[ Go to top ]

    I don't understand why linux came into picture here when the thread is about Java and .Net. But still Jason has a valid point, the problem got fixed pretty quickly compared to MS turnaround on these kind of issues.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  26. .Not is dead[ Go to top ]

    Microsoft is getting better imho, but think for a minute all of the vendors are just has bad has MS. It comes down to one thing $$$$$$.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  27. Article: Java AND .NET, not Java versus .NET[ Go to top ]

    But SDTimes is a very weak publication. Who cares what they think?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  28. Developers don't care?[ Go to top ]

    Show me an "enterprise developer" (whatever that is) who doesn't care about the language and infrastructure they use. I care about time to market but not as much as I care about the facilities offered by the tools/language/infrastructure I use. We can all mouth the BS that says the customer is more important, but in reality we just want to enjoy our work. Be honest.

    Also, drag and drop programming is for jerks who don't know how to program, those who will always be only average (if that). Do you want to rely on pre-built components supplied by a monopo;ist vendor who have no interest in fixing bugs you need fixed in a component? All they care about is advertising their "next big thing", not fixing a minor component bug which is a major problem for you. Go open source or JCP, at least you have a hope of fixing things.
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  29. Developers don't care?[ Go to top ]

    I am surprised few have taken the bait.

    "We can all mouth the BS that says the customer is more important, but in reality we just want to enjoy our work. Be honest."
    - Agree tnat we really want to enjoy our work. Meeting the customer's requirements along the way is even better.

    "Also, drag and drop programming is for jerks who don't know how to program, those who will always be only average (if that)."
    - Amen, Amen, Amen. On the bright side, the economy has weeded out some of the jerks, but not all.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  30. Developers don't care[ Go to top ]

    I am surprised few have taken the bait.


    Me too. Darn, I was looking forward to a good argument.
    Glad you agree though :-)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  31. Developers don't care?[ Go to top ]

    Also, drag and drop programming is for jerks who don't know how to program, > those who will always be only average (if that).

    I respectfully disagree. I learned how to program using C/C++ and Java before even learning about .NET and the Visual designer. Although I still like Java and plan to do more development in it in the future, I think the .NET tools definitely have an advantage over Java tools. Tools give you the option on focusing on the more important aspects of the software... like architecture, for example, IMHO. It makes things easier, yes, but that gives you a leg up in the more fascinating aspects of programming.

    Paolo del Mundo
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  32. Nip it in the bud[ Go to top ]

    Once I had a minor corn on my arm for which the doctor had a simple, practical remedy. He gave me some salicylic acid and asked me to dip a pin tip in it and puncture the corn and do this several times a day for several days. The acid would kill the cells and the corn would go away. But, I had to do it all the time, without missing a single repetition. Not a single cell could be left behind, or else the corn would grow back.

    So, it is with .Net. The weak amongst us talk about interop. The wiser ones will nip it in the bud.
    Reply to this Reply to original