MSDN Article comparing ASP.NET and Struts

Discussions

News: MSDN Article comparing ASP.NET and Struts

  1. MSDN Article comparing ASP.NET and Struts (137 messages)

    MSDN has an article comparing ASP.NET with Struts. They define both architectures and then try to compare. In some areas J2EE folks would argue with their facts. They don't mention JAAS in the security section, or the localization support in JSTL (rather than passing Locale objects around). They also manage to sneak in a section called "Migrating Struts and J2EE Applications to ASP.NET".

    Learn about the similarities and differences between ASP.NET on the .NET Framework and Struts on Java 2 Enterprise Edition; and the features that each provides to solve common developer problems. Learn about the advantages and disadvantages of each, and the utility that they bring to next-generation Web development.

    ASP.NET and Struts: Web Application Architectures

    Threaded Messages (137)

  2. Here is a thread discussing the article from Struts list:
    http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SearchList?listId=&listName=struts-user%40jakarta.apache.org&searchText=NET%3A+We+are+just+like+Struts+only+better&defaultField=subject&Search=Search

    Just like everyone else claims, we are like Sturts but better.

    This was fun to read, it puts a smile on my face. Somone has a chip on their sholder.


    *
     Main point made in there: Do not use JDBC, you make us look bad, use an auto caching DAO (data caching in data layer, get it). Clients I see in real life do, but some people on this list dont use a DAO and.... do caching in layers other than Model.
    *


    "Struts framework is ... many of its key components have been absorbed into the main J2EE framework." - not one! CommonsBeans? CommonsCollections? CommonsValidator? Tiles? Action? FormBean?
    It's a community of users, not a vendor thing.
    I do not think they get it. They think Sun does Struts?
    Look MS."There is no vendor". It' called open source. If Sun shuts down... it will have no impact on the market (for example jRockit JVM, one of 6 VM's I know - http://www.j2eegeek.com/blog/archives/2003_09_01_j2eegeek_archive.html#106336646351242237 )

    Save session state to db... I hope no one here does that (but I do think that if .Net suggests for them to do it, GREAT)

    Version is a strength of .Net? Have you ever had .DLL hell?

    OK, I do not think the author knows that J2EE comes with built in JAAS and... it's declerative role based security. Struts and other tags uses Servlets (since 2.2, go read JavaDoc) Role based API.

    Again, I do not think the Author is familiar with localization in Java... for example JSTL's localization.

    Again... on testing, I happen to use OpenSta that runs circles. I think he is implying that I can't test in J2EE. The benefit of MVC layers is that you can test each layer.

    PageController is an MVC? Looks a lot like MV... with a small c.

    This is commic: "How to migrate Struts to ASP". ??

    That is what I want to do, get propiratory with a Vendor, who want's choice?
    You know, clients no longer say.... should I use .Net or Struts, topic just does not come up for large projects.

    Oh, does it run on the largest comercial platform, Linux?

    I do my development on Linux, w/Eclipse and Tomcat and pgSQL. but, every 3 months, I reformat my windows machinee and re-install XP.
    I do not do this with Linux(Fedora)... and I guess my new OSX is BSD, but I have had it less than 3 months.

    .V
  3. URL[ Go to top ]

    Here is that bloody long URL courtesy of TinyURL.com:

    http://tinyurl.com/2asss

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  4. PG-13[ Go to top ]

    Cameron:

    http://tinyurl.com/2ass

    Cameron, please... This is a family forum.

    --
    Cedric
  5. Please be precise..[ Go to top ]

    Version is a strength of .Net? Have you ever had .DLL hell?


    Man, give me a break!

    Fact:
    - Versioning of components *IS* one of the biggest plus points in .NET, especially very, very useful for distributed computing. Consider CORBA: Changing the IDL requires recompilation of proxy and stubs, rebuilding the app apart from redeploying it. This might be a problem since your customer is in Japan. What happens with EJBs if you change the Local or Remote interfaces? See:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dndotnet/html/dplywithnet.asp
    - DLL Hell is nowaday a topic well investigated and every win32 developer uses google and msdn to find out how to completely and *easily* avoid it - if you still encounter it, the corresponding product was poorly designed.

    The Java community still hasn't even figured out _what_ a component is (a javabean? an enterprise bean?), whereas in .NET its defined: it is an assembly. If you have to start to philosphize about these points or even philosphize about specs, you will go nowhere fast.
  6. Versioning.[ Go to top ]

    Maybe on versioning J2EE needs to evolve a bit. But that is one of a dozen points.

    I use Ant and Maven and CVS, and then I test w/Open Sta in a container, with all my jars.
    When writing javascript.... then it's dual + DOM 1.

    So I do not know enought about .NET for how to do Ant, Maven and continer's jars.


    .V
  7. Please be precise..[ Go to top ]

    - DLL Hell is nowaday a topic well investigated and every win32 developer

    > uses google and msdn to find out how to completely and *easily* avoid it - if
    > you still encounter it, the corresponding product was poorly designed.

    If you rely on google and msdn to manage your versioning, please tell me the name of your company in order to not contract you. The only reason to use .NET is to get rid of the DLL hell of Win32!
      
    > The Java community still hasn't even figured out _what_ a component is (a
    > javabean? an enterprise bean?), whereas in .NET its defined: it is an
    > assembly. If you have to start to philosphize about these points or even
    > philosphize about specs, you will go nowhere fast.

    Two years ago it was a COM component, today it is an assembly... what will be in 2004 or 2005? An assembly is a very naive view of what a component is.

    It's nice to hear from these guys these kind of opinnions: clearly J2EE is the right choice!

    Happy New Year
    Diego
  8. Please be precise..[ Go to top ]

    If you rely on google and msdn to manage your versioning, please tell me the >name of your company in order to not contract you. The only reason to use .NET >is to get rid of the DLL hell of Win32!


    Don't get irrational. I won't take this personal. I use whatever tool that solves a specific problem best.

    "Only reason to use .NET?"
    Again, For what problem? Clearly, every developer on Win32 targets customers using the windows operating system. Now new API functionality in the Next Microsoft OS will be exposed via a .NET API only. If a customer migrates to the new Microsoft OS and you develop for that platform and you need that new functionality you will develop .NET (It can be as simple/stupid as a new UI look). Thats it, end of the story. So there is no such thing as choice.

    In fact its not even a matter of new functionaliy in an API. Because in the end, you always end up using the official API, because of a) support b) technical c) political reasons.

    I wasn't happy with this fact and looked at java as an alternative. Java had 2 1/2 years to position itself as an alternative (desktop and server not data center only) for all those windows developers who were basically turned down by this decision (new language AND new platform). I personally see technical issues with using Java as an *allround* lang+platform (which .NET basically pretends to be/is/will be).

    > Two years ago it was a COM component, today it is an assembly... what will be > in 2004 or 2005? An assembly is a very naive view of what a component is.

    You are philosophizing (" a very naive view"). Btw, OLE/2 dates back to 1994.

    > It's nice to hear from these guys these kind of opinnions: clearly J2EE is >the right choice!

    choice for which problem? I firmly believe in using the right tools to get things done, no reason to become religious.

    If java solves your problems, good choice.
    If it doesn't, don't think twice.

    Have a nice new year
  9. Version is a strength of .Net? Have you ever had .DLL hell?

    This version support has been developed exactly for solving
    DLL related problems, so I am afraid this remark is not valid

    Dmitry Namiot
    Coldbeans
  10. Save session state to db...[ Go to top ]

    Save session state to db... I hope no one here does that (but I do think that if .Net suggests for them to do it, GREAT)


    Well then, what do you propose instead ? Using Statefull Session Beans ? In clustered environment ?

    And BTW, about your later comment, comparing ASP webforms to MS Access vs MS SQL Server. Nobody forces you to code this way in ASP.NET. You can have all your business logic in MTS and use ASP.NET jsut for constructing view.
    It's just much more convenient than JSP tags - mark any *standart* html control with RUNAT=server and then be able access it as an object from server side code without cluttering html with programming script or custom tags.
  11. Re: Save session state to db...[ Go to top ]

    Well then, what do you propose instead ?

    > Using Statefull Session Beans ? In clustered environment ?

    LOL. DB-based session management is a really powerful concept and I like the fact that Microsoft is switched-on about this that they are giving explicit instructions for on how to do this! (Are there any good doc's/links in the Java world?)

    A while back I remember Cameron talking about implementing some sort of db-based session management system that used his caching technology too ... with time-based write-behinds etc. He said it worked like a bomb! Well...

    Regards

    Abdullah
  12. Re: Save session state to db...[ Go to top ]

    Abdullah: A while back I remember Cameron talking about implementing some sort of db-based session management system that used his caching technology too ... with time-based write-behinds etc. He said it worked like a bomb!

    I'd rather not liken software to bombs ;-)

    Actually, there are a number of choices for both .NET and J2EE applications (as well as the 10 other relatively popular web serving platforms including PHP and Python and Perl etc.)

    First, there is the in-memory, single server mode. This is the typical default. No failover. No load balancing (or sticky load balancing required.)

    Second, there is the shared database. This is the typical "multi server" mode. Web /app servers can failover b/c the session data is in the database. Database becomes a single point of failure (SPOF) unless you have an HA system (most db's have such an option, including MS SQL Server.) Performance is not very scalable, since you can scale web/app servers much easier than scaling db throughput.

    Third is the shared session store, kind of a "cache server". There's one for ASP.NET but I haven't used it myself, so I don't even remember the name. There are various similar options for J2EE. These generally represent a SPOF as well. Performance is usually better than a transactional rdbms though.

    Fourth is various custom failover approaches, such as the one in WebLogic (primary/secondary) and the Caucho approach (a ring of servers, where the next server in the ring is the secondary for the current server). Limitations with these approaches include sticky requirements (what happens when a request lands on the wrong server) and what happens if the primary and secondary vm's are both on the same server (etc.) However, these approaches are generally more scalable than the previous ones.

    The Coherence implementation actually utilizes the entire cluster as one massive clustered session store, avoiding SPOF (configurable number of backups), dynamically load-balancing the session data across the cluster, and not requiring any form of sticky HTTP load balancing (although it can benefit greatly from it, if you have an "active" hardware load balancer, meaning that it is responsible for managing the sticky cookie, because then all session access is done at in-memory speed.) We can accomplish this pretty easily with Coherence because we built the session management on top of our existing distributed ("cluster-partitioned") cache service, which already provides all of those QoS.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  13. Re: Save session state to db...[ Go to top ]

    It is all very well but sessions should be avoided if you want your app to scale. In fact in the .NET world, you never use it (if you are a "real programmer" :).

    Statelessness is the way to go.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  14. Re: Save session state to db...[ Go to top ]

    "It is all very well but sessions should be avoided if you want your app to scale. In fact in the .NET world, you never use it (if you are a "real programmer" :). Statelessness is the way to go."---> Sessions shouldn't be avoided but used properly. I wonder if the above was the reason why COM never implemented a true mechanism for executing 2 phase commit transactions (and I'd add that only "real programmers know how to use sessions")
  15. Re: Save session state to db...[ Go to top ]

    In fact in the .NET world, you never use it


    hmm, ASP.NET has built in session mechanism

    >>> (if you are a "real programmer" :).
    By "real programmer" you mean the one who works for big companies ? Programmer who do not work on small projects ? let's say web app for 20-30 users (department)

    I'd say real programmer knows proper place of sessions in his design and proper ways to implement them.
  16. Save session state to db... I hope no one here does that (but I do think that if .Net suggests for them to do it, GREAT)


    Yes, if you are using a WebSphere in Distributed Enviroment.
  17. Save session state to db... I hope no one here does that (but I do think that if .Net suggests for them to do it, GREAT)


    Mohamed said:

    > Yes, if you are using a WebSphere in Distributed Enviroment.

    If your architecture is designed by a sales person, then doing it that way will increase your costs for sure, so good for them.
    But if you actualy hire a sofware enginner, they can help you increase performance and cut costs. For example, a car engieere makes an engine more efficient and less wind resistance, or a bridge engineer knows how thin a cable can be an support the bridge.

    So if you hired me or somone like me, I would look in how a sticky bit and MVC helps. While I do not plan to teach it here, here is an outline that I would look at depending on your needs: As each action gets submited, one normaly saves the formbean via a DAO (iBatis has distributed cache/flush automatic). This give you 98% of what you want, and cuts costs. The sticky bit just send the session to the same box. In the unlikey case of a box failed, the user has to login again, but his work is saved. See...you design for the rule, you do not design for excetption, you just handle it.
    Based on saving you money, I would justify my bill rate.

    Look, there are user that need Access, I am not saying that. There are applications that a corporate secretary can do and should do; no need to invest in experienced and trained developers. It depends on the number of concurent users you need to support.
    But a programmer would use a MS SQL level tool. And there are applications that required MVC and programmers (and some that don't).
    Sometimes you need a small car, sometimes you need a big truck with a driver that can park an 18 wheeler.
    Are there projects that should have used "Access" that used MSSQL and vice versa, yes, but that is not cost efficeient.

    Anyway, I belvie with my training and experience, that using Open Source J2EE standards I can achive higer productivity, scalability and ROI.
    If anyone wants to commepte with that, good, there is the real world out there; lets see how many large proejcts we do, and what the impact on the organization is.
    If you use MS, your organization's cost will be higher. I would be glad to reduce my horly rate, and work on the % of $ I save you.

    A year ago, clients I deal with asked about .NET.. but it just does not come up anymore.
    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html



    hth,
    .V
  18. WebSphere in Distributed Enviroment[ Go to top ]

    <vic>
    So if you hired me or somone like me, I would look in how a sticky bit and MVC helps. While I do not plan to teach it here, here is an outline that I would look at depending on your needs: As each action gets submited, one normaly saves the formbean via a DAO (iBatis has distributed cache/flush automatic). This give you 98% of what you want, and cuts costs. The sticky bit just send the session to the same box. In the unlikey case of a box failed, the user has to login again, but his work is saved. See...you design for the rule, you do not design for excetption, you just handle it.
    Based on saving you money, I would justify my bill rate.
    </vic>
    Vic, in many cases your example could be enough. But don't forget to think about eCommerce. Your customer won't login again if he/she was thrown out from your webshop system ;-) You will loose your customers in this way. Therefore all the activities in clustering (presentation, business and data layers). Many people are working on clustering not just for fun ;-)

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
    http://www.openuss.org
  19. WebSphere in Distributed Enviroment[ Go to top ]

    <Lofi>
    .. don't forget to think about eCommerce. Your customer won't login again if he/she was thrown out from your webshop system ;-) You will loose your customers in this way.
    </lofi>

    It is unlikely that a tested box will fail! Do not design for exception!

    In the unlikely event a box failed... here is example.
    A user click on an item to add to a shoping cart and then clicks check out (1) and is a the enter CC # page.
    (1): The shoping cart is saved to DB via a DAO(DAO flushes cache), as each submit is anyway, nothing special.

    Boom! At this point a box fails (the cleaning lady unplugs the server to plug in the vacum cleaner - this actualy happened to a large consulting client - a client that also ran for president of US in case you guess who the client is - while I was consulting there)

    The user clicks submit CC#... (2) and is re-directed to a login page.
    2-The sticky bit CISCO sees the dead box and send the user to a new box with a new session, and the application forces a login becuase it sees the URL is in credit card. The user is confused no doubt. Once he logs in, he is back at the CC page, and its blank. He enters the CC # and clicks submit, the shoping cart is loaded from db, and done.

    The point is that... it is UNLIKELY that one box will fail so no need to deal with it, above is worst and unlikely case.

    Notice that I did not spend resources for clustering.

    But .. if one does set up a cluster ... becuase of the complexity of the work and settings... you lose on stability, so the entiere system is less stable as a rule.

    I had other experience like this. DB replication. I had a large client (used to be # 2 car company that makes Mustang) that had a slow DB, and they were sold to switch to a DB replication culster. Sounded good in theory.
    After they upgraded... they removed replication since it made it less stable and slower.

    (Or... a multi CPU... can make the application server slower, but lets not get into that)


    .V
  20. WebSphere in Distributed Enviroment[ Go to top ]

    <Lofi>

    > .. don't forget to think about eCommerce. Your customer won't login again if he/she was thrown out from your webshop system ;-) You will loose your customers in this way.
    > </lofi>
    >
    > It is unlikely that a tested box will fail! Do not design for exception!
    >
    > In the unlikely event a box failed... here is example.
    > A user click on an item to add to a shoping cart and then clicks check out (1) and is a the enter CC # page.
    > (1): The shoping cart is saved to DB via a DAO(DAO flushes cache), as each submit is anyway, nothing special.
    >
    > Boom! At this point a box fails (the cleaning lady unplugs the server to plug in the vacum cleaner - this actualy happened to a large consulting client - a client that also ran for president of US in case you guess who the client is - while I was consulting there)
    >
    > The user clicks submit CC#... (2) and is re-directed to a login page.
    > 2-The sticky bit CISCO sees the dead box and send the user to a new box with a new session, and the application forces a login becuase it sees the URL is in credit card. The user is confused no doubt. Once he logs in, he is back at the CC page, and its blank. He enters the CC # and clicks submit, the shoping cart is loaded from db, and done.
    >
    > The point is that... it is UNLIKELY that one box will fail so no need to deal with it, above is worst and unlikely case.
    >
    > Notice that I did not spend resources for clustering.
    >
    > But .. if one does set up a cluster ... becuase of the complexity of the work and settings... you lose on stability, so the entiere system is less stable as a rule.
    >
    > I had other experience like this. DB replication. I had a large client (used to be # 2 car company that makes Mustang) that had a slow DB, and they were sold to switch to a DB replication culster. Sounded good in theory.
    > After they upgraded... they removed replication since it made it less stable and slower.
    >
    > (Or... a multi CPU... can make the application server slower, but lets not get into that)
    >
    >
    > .V

    Actually web failover is more common than you think. You still need to handle server maintenance and software upgrades/patches. But that's not the point. You can get seemless failover quite cheaply and easily with open source or commercial Java solutions.

    Bill
  21. 1. Versioning - completely agree java lacks versioning support, nothing to do with struts though. This is more important for client apps. Rarely server applications would need to coexist with different versions of the same API at runtime, for server side applications it is more a deployment problem.
    2. Security – unfair comparison, the author compares Struts security (which is none) which relays on JSP/Servlet and J2EE frameworks with the .Net Framework and ASP.Net
    3. The author missing one point, .Net is grate framework and many would happily use it since currently it’s more advanced, uses better language, probably more optimized runtime, has good IDE and debugging, strong company behind etc. BUT it runs on windows only (even if the windows is the best OS in the entire universe the IT community wants to have choice, personally I like windows a lot but I don’t see why server machine needs to have tons of GUI loaded on it, that is the major security problem), lacks huge open source base, lacks support from other vendors such as IBM, Oracle, SUN

    All above has little to do with Struts, it has been discussed in the article.
  22. I was going until...[ Go to top ]

    The article starts out as fair/balanced and then the conclusion looks like it's edited by the marketing department.

    i.e. The close intergration to the operating system is a big plus.

    I hope CTO and below can see though stuff like this.
  23. Web controls offer a rich set of functionality, including browser

    >detection and auto-output generation.
    I am not sure, what does it mean exactly 'detection' in this context, but no doubt it is possible to output HTML/WML in JSP taglibs too.

    >when an error occurs, ASP.NET generates detailed error messages, including
    >a complete stack trace.
    It is good :-)

    Dmitry Namiot
    Coldbeans
  24. What happens with EJBs if you change the Local or Remote interfaces? See:


    If any of the business methods signtures are changed/added in interfaces it will be a Design change (In most projects it is considered as a serious change will need to get approved and has to go for rigrous process of approval, unless it is a "who care's" type of project).

    Doesn't matter what the Version number is client will still need a change in case any of the Business Method signature is changed or new business methods are added to improve the functionality.

    In EJB developers can also add a version number thing in there (non-standard application specific) if they want to in design.

    Version Number will only help in detecting if any changes have occured. In EJB side the exceptions can handle this.

    J2EE and EJB Specs assign certain roles and are managed by the people with the specific roles assigned to them. So assembly is as simple of the roles are followed well.

    Regarding Deprecation: All the compilers provide the Deprecation warning during the build. So the Developer itself may know what needs to change. Everything can be resolved before the application gets build (if deprication is considered as an error) and is ready for testing (including Unit Testing).

    >>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dndotnet/html/dplywithnet.asp

    Microsoft has habit of hyping their technology and solutions.
  25. And can't see why people bother about this kind of thing. If the market someday will be dominated by .NET do you know who will be the best .NET developers and architects? The former Java/J2EE experts, of course. It was the same thing with VB: the best VB developers came from C, C++ and Delphi backgounds.

    In fact *EVERY* single programmer I met that had only VB background should better be doing something else with his life - those were the worst professionals I've ever had the displeasure to work with. Most ASP and VB6 developers will NEVER have enough intellect to migrate to .NET: it brings some concepts that are too much for them.

    .NET or J2EE? Who cares?!?! As long as both evolve...
  26. Nice.
  27. ...and so say all of us!
  28. A good concise and unbiased comparison. But I would like to add one thing, when it comes to developing web GUI's, ASP.NET is far superior to JSP. Believe me I also don't like MS monopoly but I give them all the credit to be so innovative again at the presentation tier (one of their forte since long time)...
    JSP developers and Java community stuck too much with cryptic tags and nonsense, while MS has done a very good job integrating webform controls in server side framework. I mean no matter how hard you try in JSP world you cannot get away without writing html code. Writing HTML is like writing machine code to me. Why the hell we still doing that.... ASP.NET code behind approach is awesome; I strongly believe that JSP should follow codebehind approach too.
  29. The webform controls sound very attractive in theory. One can simply drag and drop all the web page components into the designer. However, I once took a class where simple ASP.NET was taught. I found out that the webform components are not flexible at all in terms of layout. It's much easier to write layout using HTMl and CSS.

    But maybe I didn't go deep enough with ASP.NET. Can anyone commend on this? Do webform controls really work nicely in terms of layout? Could you develop a professional looking website just by using the drag and drop method?
  30. <!-- The webform controls sound very attractive in theory.-->

    Derek, if you go back early days of Java, you must have heard this thing a lot of time for Java too. As far as the WebForm goes, it is definitely not as mature as we all want to be, but MS headed towards the right direction. You can definitely develop a professional website using drag and drop features, and yes in some cases achieving the right layout could need some tweaking in sense of html too, but we all hope an improvement as the technology matures in future. As far as CSS goes, in ASP.NET world you can bind CSS to individual web controls in more programmatic way than the cryptic tags. Don't get me wrong, the native language of the browser is still html and it's not going any where, but don't you think in today's world when people think in terms of object and classes, and methodologies like MDA is such a fad, coding web GUI's in native HTML is little bit out dated and non-productive:-)
  31. Page web contol centric is a bit like MS Access vs MS SQL (WebForms vs MVC)
    I would never use Access, but some people use Access and create a JDBC connection pool to it.

    If you need a larger busines application, you need profesional architecture and profesional developers, that will not just jam everything in the view. Some people do, but if you have a CS degree or fancy yourself a sofware engineer... you just don't do that.

    Of course once can have faster time to market with Aces vs MSSQL, but that application will be limited in scalability, performance, cost of operation and matianance and the UI.

    MS Access has nice UI, and corporate secretaries like it... I don't use it, no one ever asks me to use it. As a profesional programmer, I refuse to use Acces for anything, it would be an insult. But I do use MS SQL and I do performance and tunning on it.

    You could do GeoCities pages or similar, and have a shoping cart and content and everything, but would you hire a programmer to do that for you?

    .V
  32. <
    This is good to know. I just wonder if there would be any disagreements here. It is just that it felt too restricted for me at the time. I think even Dreamweaver is not so successful in simplifying page layout for business. Just for comparison sake, would you say that moving around the webform controls in the VS studio designer is better/easier than moving around the HTML controls in Dreamweaver?
  33. Choices![ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    JSP developers and Java community stuck too much with cryptic tags and nonsense, while MS has done a very good job integrating webform controls in server side framework. I mean no matter how hard you try in JSP world you cannot get away without writing html code. Writing HTML is like writing machine code to me. Why the hell we still doing that.... ASP.NET code behind approach is awesome; I strongly believe that JSP should follow codebehind approach too.
    </quote>
    Therefore you have *choices* in Java world. If you don't like JSP just use: XMLC or Tapestry. XMLC and Tapestry don't use JSP's approach (no tags!) and they are in many cases a lot more easier to use than JSP!
    If you need a MVC framework for XMLC try Barracuda. Here is a good comparison article about Barracuda + XMLC (event-oriented) and Struts + JSP (page-oriented):
    http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/docs/barracuda_vs_struts.html

    <quote>
    The .NET world is a superset and far superior to Java in every way. Above all it is always faster with the same memory requirement. Get used to it.
    </quote>
    Could be... but you have no choices like in the Java world...

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
    http://www.openuss.org
  34. Choices![ Go to top ]

    <quote>

    > The .NET world is a superset and far superior to Java in every way. Above all it is always faster with the same memory requirement. Get used to it.
    > </quote>

    OK, lets try to prove this above all point. I will install on my 32 Meg box with a SCSI-cache drive a SQL DB (pgSQL), Linux, Tomcat 5 + a Struts portal app w/ a fire wall and a stres test tool (OpenSTA). I assure you I can go a lot less RAM, but why remove it. While I have the box, I can put a newserver on it, a mail server, IRC server but you get the point.
    It will support over 200 concurent users with ease, and it will NEVER need to be rebooted, since there are no memory leaks, and it will be secure. And what about my ROI and not having to go to a budget meetings or a legal review of contracts.

    You will install what memory for Windows and what version?
    How much for memory is needed for SharePoint Portal + MS SQL Server on XP box?

    On the high end, imagine a NewISys 4100 with 4 64 bit CPU and 16 Gig RAM... Linux will use memory much better. Thanks to Java cross platform, you get a choice of platform and JVM. Some VM's are better than others (Sun VM I avoid, I linked above a VM I use) ... even MS is doing CLR (I remember PL/1, when p-code was not cool)

    XP does not release memory once loaded, Linux does, so that's why I use it.
    So I do not think people that signed PO's buy the memory argument of MS.
    If you don't do large load for a departmental level app., MS could work.
    (Also, some large fortune 500 corps I know ban Windoze for internet server becuase of poor security. )


    .V
  35. Choices![ Go to top ]

    "How much for memory is needed for SharePoint Portal + MS SQL Server on XP box"

    For the first you do not install MS SQL Server on XP, XP is a client system. You install on Windows Server 2003 that does the work of 3 Linux servers.

    Second you do not need the SharePoint Portal. You use Sharepoint Services which is included free in Win2003 - more flexible and more powerful.

    On the server you have MS SQL Server on the client you have Access. When you connect to the network the data is transparently automatically replicated. Then you can work off line.

    "32 Meg box with a SCSI-cache drive a SQL DB (pgSQL), Linux, Tomcat 5 + a Struts portal app"

    What kind of a "come and help me" system is that? Do you seriously think that such a system can compete with the combination of XP and Win2003? Have you considered the significance of Infopath + Sharepoint Services?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  36. Choices![ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    The point stated was words to the effect...
    "The best part of .NET is that it is better in memory .... "

    I just pointed out that is not true, becuase Java's platform requires much less memory and runs much more stable in that memory than .NET. Example I gave is that Windows or it's services can't even start on a lot of boxes, while Linux runs great. So if memory is the best part... its not.

    I think your new point is that .NET has more servies than Java? I do not think so. Java is more mature and has a jar for almost everything out there.

    And your point of support on Linux... it's well known that Linux support costs are much lower and that it is easier.
    But it's true, corporate secretaries that use Access might not know how to administer a Linux SQL + Tomcat box, nor should they.

    So if you have an argment or a point to make, please do. I offered you a chart of shrinking market share for MS above link, so maybe all those people are wrong. Again, I am not saying that small departmental solution should not be done with page controller and without developers... developers are too expensive for that. There is a place for Access coprorate secretaries!
    For heavy lifting, you need linux, MVC and a developer or 2... and choice of platform/containers.
    .NET developers have a burden to prove that large applications with lots of users can be stable and cost effective in .NET. Again, look at the shrinking market share, the PHB's are not signing a PO for .NET.

    Here is a site to help you with w/ running linux: http://tldp.org
    But there is no 6 week class to make you a Certified Access developer equivalent, it takes years of experience, that one can't get a certificate for. That's why you can't hack into a Linux box, becuase of the admin knows whats up!

    .V

    Servers are Linux! But even backwards states govs are starting to realize that they can use OpenOffice.org for users, let alone for profit business that look to cut costs, and then what happens to your client user base?

    And a Struts basic portal got selected by several large proejcts just fine recently.

    And.. and.. as far as sessions fail over, 100% time gets exponentialy more expensive, so all you can do is %99 in theory. But if you go 98%, you can cut your cost in 1/2. Once you remove culstering, you have more scalability. And since you have simpler and faster, you have in practice something that servers more sessions in between failures.
  37. Choices![ Go to top ]

    It is a funny way of arguing that Linux needs less memory that .NET.

    it is Java that needs more memory not Linux operating system.

    Linux is done in C - not Java. When Linux come anywhere near Win2003 functionality and performance then we can discuss the matter again.
    I mean real functionality of course, not distributing 13 different web servers.

    And this talk of "corporate secretaries"? Do you think a secretary can develop a system such I was outlining? With .NET/C# SQL Server and Sharepoint on the server (with perhaps clustering) and Access + Infopath on the client - totally transparent to work on line or off line? (I would be much obliged if you dropped the condescending tone.)

    Your arguments fights each other, first you say that,
    "Linux support costs are much lower and that it is easier"
    Then you say,
    "it takes years of experience"

    What’s it going to be?

    Thank you for the link but I already have Redhat9 with Gnome. Dual both with my Win2003 system adapted as workstation. Now and then I boot into Redhat to be amazed - and never cease to wonder at the arrogance of people that talks about the "blue screen of MS" when with Linux and OpenOffice requires rebooting every 10 minutes of the graphical environment. In short - the greatest shit I ever experienced.

    About Netcraft statistics. Why don't you find some stat on use inenterprise and corporate environments?

    Not interested in serving simple HTML pages.
    Sorry.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  38. Choices![ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    The article above is a comparison, with some funny points like how to convert Struts to ASP, when the graph I linked shows market going in oposite direction.
    The reason that this is fun is becuase it is not even close.

    Lets agree that .NET platform does not have an advantage on the Java platform in memory, and that both C# and Java run on p-code.

    The design you specified: ".NET/C# SQL Server and Sharepoint with perhaps clustering and Access + Infopath on the client" could be imroved, as any system could. For example the cost of operation to deploy to clients, or cost of licenses, and even the # of concruent users. It realy looks like MS sold you a lot of different products that you pay for.
    Is this more of a client /server, what I used to do in PowerBuilder long time ago (and back them, there was VB, that address a market segment).
    Since you run Linux dual boot, tell me how you would do this on Java/Linux? Does this have anything to do with Struts or are we hijaking a thread to talk about MS in general?

    Linux is for heavy lifting and it has lower support costs! I can ssh from anywhere to do anything, like edit a server.xml in vim, and I do not think a Access developer is able to do this things... becuase they do not know what they would want done.
    Lets say its easy to use MS Word. But knowing how to use MS Word does not make you a novelist. Even if you know how to click a mouse in Access, you should know when not to use front controller.
    A point someone else made in this thread is that best .NET developers are good Java developers, becuase they know where to click.

    Are you implying that I can't do rich UI on the client side and that right way for rich UI is VB Script?
    Via JavaScript DOM 1 or http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/flex/articles/struts.html .

    Rebooting Linux? "Do laws of physics break down on your machine? " I meant that to be funny, I do not take the flame wars serious. Most people can run Linux without a reboot, while XP needs reboots after a heavy load. Also, do you have a lot of virus detection sofware on XP? On Linux + Mozilla, the VB scripts can't get root access, no need for a virus checker. If you can't install Linux, do you know how to configure MS SQL server and do showplan , etc? - This is just a personal bias I have.
    Other do not have that issue AFAIK. But I do use a XP box that I reformat every 3 months to get arround the DLL issues.
    I wonder what you think of OSX?

    For a client, did you pay MS $400 for Office license or are you using the free OpenOffice.org on Windoze or the 3rd thing?
    What is your Video card you have installed and X terminal settings? For a server, do you need Gui or can you just use the Visual Editor Improved (ViM) or Emacs. Tomcat just gives you console.


    There is a place and a time for MS Access and for Front Controller!

    .V
  39. Choices![ Go to top ]

    A beateful girl come visiting so I must answer tomorrow!

    In the meanwhile ponder:

    Gartner August 13, 2003:
    "Statistics about dramatic Linux sales growth are numerous, but here is one of the most telling: Statistics about dramatic Linux sales growth are numerous, but here is one of the most telling: Sales of Linux servers in the U.S. grew a jaw-dropping 90 percent in Q4 of 2002 compared with the same period the previous year, says Gartner Dataquest. And that was a period in which overall server sales inched up a mere 5 percent versus a year earlier."

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  40. cost comparison?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: A beateful girl come visiting so I must answer tomorrow!

    How much does that cost you? I'm just curious.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  41. Bashing Rolf[ Go to top ]

    Stop it!
  42. morning and another fresh day![ Go to top ]

    <Cameron Purdy> "How much does that cost you?"
    That statement tell us more about you than me ;)
    Cameron, I told you once I told you a thousands times. The reality is best understood through literary mechanisms. If you had followed my advice you would not made such a fool of yourself as you just did.

    Vic Cekvenich:
    "Do laws of physics break down on your machine? ..Most people can run Linux without a reboot"

    I never said I rebooted Linux it is the X Win System/Gnome that needs reboot every 10 minutes.

    "I wonder what you think of OSX?"

    OSx is a decent system, but there are nowhere as many applications for it as for windows. For instance .NET do not run on Macintosh, Sharepoint do not run on Macintosh, Exchange does not run on Macintosh, MS CRM do not run on Macintosh etc, etc. Another thing to consider is that Apple has taken the OS from Open Source (ultimately from AT&T) and the Office suit is from Microsoft.. but at least it is better that Linux. That makes you think. "If Apple can make a decent graphical environment why can't Open Source?"

    The Unix World has never understood Windows and how everything is interconnected. How the Office Suit for example consist of hundreds of building blocks (objects) that can be used together across memory boundaries. They don't understand how XML, Web Services, Infopath and Access works in the grand scheme, how XP client programs and Win2003 Server programs play in consert and harmony. No matter how careful I explain to Vic, he will never understand to use just building blocks from Access, not the whole shebang - but it is hopeless - like trying to explain to a person from Mars. He goes on with his Skoda Lada systems, the equivalent of the cars from the old communist block - even the propaganda sounds similar.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  43. What is .NET ?[ Go to top ]

    I know STRUTS. We use it since 4 years now...but what the hell is .NET ?

    Oliver.Lauer@sk-koeln.de
    Development Manager
    Retail Bank Germany
    Old Europe
  44. Access ?[ Go to top ]

    Access works in the grand scheme,


    I dont think that Access is used in serious systems :-)

    Currently I am working on financial transaction management/processing system that is used by many banks and they dont want Access, we need to support Oracle and Informix only.

    Obviously they dont want .NET either because the system has to run in various Unix boxes including AIX and HPUX. Also the system runs under WEBLogic and WEBSphere, thanx to J2EE portability. And by the way, we use STRUTS and ENTITY BEANS, too. :-)

    Maris
  45. another comment from the 80% segment[ Go to top ]

    Access is of course not used as a replacement for Oracle as nobody would think of using Oracle as replacement for a single user Access on an "occasionally connected laptop" either.

    But MS SQL Server is, constantly beating Oracle in the Transaction Processing Performance Council (TPC) benchmarks. (Until Oracle refrained to participate anymore).

    A post like this can only help the opposition!
    Thank you.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  46. morning and another fresh day![ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    Rolf: For instance .NET do not run on Macintosh, Sharepoint do not run on Macintosh ...

    Vic: Yes, Yes, I know what you mean there. But Java and Unix apps do run. Same thing is true of HP-UX, Aix, SlowLaris, Tru64, OpenVMS, etc.; none of them run .NET or Sharepoint.

    Rolf: Another thing to consider is that Apple has taken the OS from Open Source (ultimately from AT&T) and the Office suit is from Microsoft.. but at least it is better that Linux. That makes you think. "If Apple can make a decent graphical environment why can't Open Source?"

    Vic: Yes, Apple did that. They now have a secure OS. A lot fo companies take Apache and other OSS and use it, ASF license is designed to let you do that.
    This is why they do that most likely:
    http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php

    As far as who designed and wrote Linux, even little kids know the name of the person that wrote Linux. But here is more if you like on the legal case to clear up MS FUD:
    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1395866,00.asp
    source:http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/11/19/1548242&mode=thread&tid=2&tid=82&tid=94
    It says a lot about the US "justice" system.

    Try the new RedHat Fedora release, it has a UI that I think is better than XP but not as good as OSX.
    Did you pay for Office on your XP, or are you using OpenOffice.org, or did you get it of LimeWire? Sofware people above all should respect the author copywrights.

     
    Rolf:> The Unix World has never understood Windows and how everything is interconnected.

    Yes, like in Unix, if you hack into a port or an account, you still can't get to root. In Windows... any VB Script high school kid in a 3rd world country can access system files, and add a little code to a system DLL. This simple aproache would not to work in Linux, becuase it has said compartments and groups, etc.

    *Look there is a place for Access*, and people that use Access should not be doing MVC.
    If you have a small list and a single user, you may use Spreadhsheet Excell and write VBA macros. ( I have used MutiPlan, VisiCalc, 123, Excel... but still do not put it on my resume, and even I call myself a programmer, I do not know how to write an Excel Macro).

    If you like page controler more than MVC, just like there are many MVC implementation out there, but even page controller you can still do Java:
    http://wwws.sun.com/software/images/products/I1_JS_creator_i.jpg
    for a small fee of:
    http://wwws.sun.com/software/sundev/jde/buy.html - for developers that what to do UI. In MVC you give UI to a graphic artist, at least I do once I am done with the form.
    Novell has a much better X-Forms based (sub-part of XHTML standard) coming out to public Beta in Feb., and SilverStream - developers of X-Forms from Novell - are well known for great UI. All browser will one day support X-Forms W3 standard.

    So if I may conclde, based on my links, for larger apps., Struts works and is a proven known qunatity, and it has great UI possibilities ... MS is not in the same ball park in popularity, growth, etc.

    Do you have links on MS stability and/or security? Would you run a mission critical large web site on it?

    .V
  47. has Vic got a window in his head?[ Go to top ]

    Vic I don't understand you. I never counted you in the 80% segment before!

    Have you seen the film "A Chump at Oxford" with Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy?
    Due to a bump on the head Stan becomes an Oxford intellectual - unfortunately he gets another bump so he reverts back to his old stupid self.

    You always seemed so intelligent.
     
    Why do you continue to argue as if I advocated Access on the server?
    For the last time. Access has its uses as a single user system enabling "off-line use". And as such it is perfect - the industry standard. And in such scenarios it is only the invisible, GUI-less Database Engine that is used, from the browser.

    If you return another post talking about Access on the server I scream!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  48. 3rd world???[ Go to top ]

    "any VB Script high school kid in a 3rd world country can access system files"
    Surprising the kids of the first world also.
  49. .NET versus COM[ Go to top ]

    Rolf (or anybody who knows ASP.NET) please help me to understand how
    I would use these great ready-to-go Microsoft "components" which Rolf speaks of (mostly Office suite).

    1. I believe the Office components are all COM model (native code), true?
    I also was under impression that COM (native code) is generally being
    abandonded for managed-code .NET libraries, so is it wise to do new development
    using "legacy" COM objects?

    2. Are these Office components thread-safe? Could multiple simultaneous users
    instanciate an Office COM object and manipulate different documents?

    3. Exactly what Office-type functionality is needed by a Web developer (users of Struts or ASP.NET)? Please give me a real world example where a web user
    could benefit from this? Predictable response like "Update a Word document
    with name/address/account# from web user" I dont really consider valid, since
    the whole idea of a propietary Word format is easily avoidable (html, PDF).
  50. all of a sudden...[ Go to top ]

    By the talk of some people here, it seems that M$ has just became the god of perfect code and design from night to day, thanks to its miraculous .Net. Let's just forget about VB, Windows ME, COM, ASP, IIS, etc, etc. This got to be a different company that gave us all that crap!!!

    "Look, ma: .Net saved the third world from hunger too!!!"

    There's a place for every technology. I used to code in ASP, FYI.

    Peace,
    Zenrique
  51. "VB, COM, ASP, IIS"[ Go to top ]

    Hi Zenrique, long time no see!

    You are talking about some of the biggest successes in the history of computing.

    Even today, when Java has more than 7 years maturing, if I ever should build a Windows application again, I still would prefer VB6 before Java. I would get an app at least twice as fast, with 10 times as fast upstart time, and with a better user interface.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  52. happy coding[ Go to top ]

    Hi Rolf. I thought you had made a promise of never showing up again round here, but we can't trust in trolls, can we?

    Why not try then creating that 100000 lines of code system using VB and COM in a WinME box, while trying to tap all the holes in IIS at the same time? Happy coding!

    If java wasn't the future, M$ wouldn't have "cloned" its programming language, its virtual machine and bytecode, etc. Some people are using .Net just because it is a Java clone, and Java is a proven concept. After long fighting against it, M$ finally saw that it is the way to go. And it could have jumped in Java bandwagon long ago, but no, it had to be THEIR java, within their control. Hence .Net. But both are almost the same, due to the high quality of M$'s cloning of Java... :) Bashing java is the same as bashing .Net, since both are based on the same principles. (remember: you can compile java bytecode to native machine language too!!)

    Java was right.

    Peace!
    Zenrique
  53. .NET versus COM[ Go to top ]

    Hi Mike,

    Good questions. Even better ones would be how Office and/or Access EVER got into this conversation in the first place (but that's another thing I guess :-)

    To tackle them in order:

    1. I believe the Office components are all COM model (native code), true?
    I also was under impression that COM (native code) is generally being
    abandonded for managed-code .NET libraries, so is it wise to do new development
    using "legacy" COM objects?

    True, even Office 2003 programability is RIDDLED with COM. Even some of their newer, more promising upgrades such as Smart Documents rely on COM first, but can "do .NET" via interop. Ugh...as far as the idea of COM being generally abandoned for managed code: every chance we get, but it will be quite a long time if ever that it's a reality. ;-)

    2. Are these Office components thread-safe? Could multiple simultaneous users
    instanciate an Office COM object and manipulate different documents?

    Office COM libraries are client-side libraries; they're not intended for server-side use and are quite heavy even when tapping into them for Office Automation on the client (i.e., for a single-user desktop application of some type). I suppose if one wanted to incorporate these into a web application, it could be done on the server since they're reachable via COM just like any other type library. However, that would be pretty ugly and a big mistake.

    3. Exactly what Office-type functionality is needed by a Web developer (users of Struts or ASP.NET)? Please give me a real world example where a web user
    could benefit from this? Predictable response like "Update a Word document
    with name/address/account# from web user" I dont really consider valid, since
    the whole idea of a propietary Word format is easily avoidable (html, PDF).

    As far as "practical" requirements: banking systems always have users that want charting or their spreadsheets rendered in some HTML format (actually, I hear more often "but why can't [insert UI page here] look like my Excel?" :-) For this, there are lighter-weight Office Web Components that can render Office document content on a web page without the heavier COM type libraries. However, caveat emptor there too: the HTML rendered is HUGELY dependent on IE (I'm as shocked as you are). This is kind of it though, as far as I usually see. I've always seen that this isn't really a requirement as much as it is a "wanna have", and so usually avoid ever having to design for that. Sometimes, this kind of automation is done because there's a requirement (e.g., spell-checking) that isn't specific to an Office application, but the developer is inexperienced and thinks "gee, easy/neat/free way to implement that is just to make a COM call to the Word type library". This is a laughable scenario, of course, but I've seen it happen as an extreme example. In these cases, developers deserve whatever they get.

    Bottom line: there are plenty of more open, web-centric widgets, controls and solutions out there that provide all the functionality that you would ever attempt to serve from Office COM libraries.

    Again, as I said up top, how Access DBs and Office applications got into a conversation regarding ASP .NET, Struts or even web applications in general, I have no idea. I've personally never even seen an Access DB used for anything other than providing a portable proof-of-concept for a relational DB schema since it's so easy just to copy the file around.

    Anyway, hope this all helps. Maybe now I'll actually go read the article.

    Mike
  54. Microsoft components[ Go to top ]

    I didn't want to answer this question because this is a serverside forum ("theserverside" remember). However, I see that I have to yet again.

    The discussion is relevant, even in a serverside forum to show that it is not only the merits of Java vs .NET that is the issue, the environment - the ecology is also a factor in the total cost/quality of a solution. It might yield some insight to the Unix/Linux developers that never have worked with MS tools.

    "Are these Office components thread-safe?"

    Components are server-side or client-side as Mike says it is a big mistake to use client-side components on the server, Office or other.

    As a last prerequisite I just want to make clear that as any other database Access consist of 3 parts: The file system, the database engine and maintenance program(s). When I speak about Access I always mean the invisible Engine, not the GUI maintenance program.

    Sharepoint Services is a set of components bundled with the win2003 Server that enables you to construct your own portal system from components.
    __________________________

    OK, imagine for example that the application I was outlining was a Sale Automation application: "consisting of 60.000 rows of advanced C# code that you download and deploy over the Web (like webstart) that can do ad hoc SQL queries (among lots of other functionality) and where you from the menu can open any database of your choice, Oracle, SQL Server or whatever and also optionally open a local Access database that is automatically is synchronized over Internet and allow you to work offline"

    On the server you have business logic and data access with Front Controller or maybe the simpler pattern of inheriting all the code behind classes from a common class, whatever. The server app use components from Exchange, Sharepoint and SQL Server and at the same time you construct your C# system as a Sharepoint Component.

    On the client you use components from Office Infopath/Word/Excel/Powerpoint, Crystal Report and Access. Highlight a customer and click to download the Infopath XML template from the server and opened with all relevant data already filled in from the database. Reports are done with the Crystal OCX, the off-line database is Access, saving is done directly to the server (if you are online) using the document-manager from Sharepoint, otherwise everything is transparently synchronized via SOAP when you go online.

    __________________________

    This is just a simple example I could have used the Biztalk server, but I am sure you get the drift. It doesn't have to be type Windows form; I could also have used the browser with an ActiveX control or C# Applet. Making the offline application as easy as just saving the page. (What I have not covered is how easy there is for a secretary to make XML templates with Infopath or open the database with the Access GUI maintenance program.)

    "COM (native code) is generally being abandonded"

    It will take a long time to rewrite all MS products to C# (but eventually it will happen) the principle of reusable components will be it the same though.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking that Linux is a real threat to Microsoft. When everything is converted to C# MS can just port the whole system - the position would be the same.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  55. why struts?[ Go to top ]

    First of all, we all have to appreciate .NET technology and bring their ideas into java and improve on it rather than fighting. .NET is here to stay and it is good technology.

    2nd, why use Struts when WebWork2 is better. Or better still, just use Tapestry. I believe Tapestry is the best Web Application Development Tool out there and a comparison wit ASP .NET would really be interesting. Howard Lewis Ship, what do you think?
  56. Microsoft components[ Go to top ]

    Thank you MikeD and Rolf for the replies. So (as i suspected)
    these Office components (like most MS components) are not at
    all useful (serverside) to web development. They are only useful
    if you choose to implement client-side functionality requiring
    these components, instead of just using standard browser/OS agnostic
    items like HTML, PDF.

    This is precisely my fundamental disagreement with alot of MS
    technologies and MS-centric developers. I will keep an open mind,
    but so far MikeD/Rolf/etc have not shown me any example where
    fat-client-side code is specifically needed. You might CHOOSE to do
    COM based GUI stuff on your desktop, but I can design the same
    functional program using purely server based techniques.

    Serverside is MY choice, and this is why I read TSS.
  57. Microsoft components[ Go to top ]

    Mike,

    My original response caused the site to choke when I clicked "Reply" and so did not save (probably was too long-winded anyway :-)

    To paraphrase it, I think that you took my answer to a specific question on a specific scenario (your Question 3) and applied it to a greater generalization in your response. Of course, I could have read it wrong too so who knows.

    It's getting off-topic (shocker :-), but of course client-side application requirements exist. Otherwise, even in the Java world there'd be no call for something like "love-it-or-hate-it" Swing and even J2ME (which admittedly by some vendor scuttlebutt I've heard doesn't have much business buy-in yet...who knows how true).
  58. Microsoft components[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,
    > __________________________
    >
    > OK, imagine for example that the application I was outlining was a Sale Automation application: "consisting of 60.000 rows of advanced C# code that you download and deploy over the Web (like webstart) that can do ad hoc SQL queries (among lots of other functionality) and where you from the menu can open any database of your choice, Oracle, SQL Server or whatever and also optionally open a local Access database that is automatically is synchronized over Internet and allow you to work offline"
    >
    > On the server you have business logic and data access with Front Controller or maybe the simpler pattern of inheriting all the code behind classes from a common class, whatever. The server app use components from Exchange, Sharepoint and SQL Server and at the same time you construct your C# system as a Sharepoint Component.
    >
    > On the client you use components from Office Infopath/Word/Excel/Powerpoint, Crystal Report and Access. Highlight a customer and click to download the Infopath XML template from the server and opened with all relevant data already filled in from the database. Reports are done with the Crystal OCX, the off-line database is Access, saving is done directly to the server (if you are online) using the document-manager from Sharepoint, otherwise everything is transparently synchronized via SOAP when you go online.
    >
    > __________________________
    >
    > This is just a simple example I could have used the Biztalk server ...

    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    1st, let me applogie for some of the rude J2EE developers remaarks, I guess every camp has all kinds.

    Your post was interesting for me. Do you have a link on MS for the Sharepoint services ? I like to learn about other aproaches.

    For heavy client, you could still go cross platfrom, like I have 2 links on Flash. If you want to go Client/Server, why not PowerBuilder?

    Some in Java camp need to apreciate that users do want RIA.

    Thanks,
    Vic
  59. Thank you Mike and Vic, you never cease to be amazed!

    That the portals systems fills a need is obvious, or else there would not be over hundred open and commercial system available - eXo is the latest in the Java world. The main advantage is that the users can do 80-90% of the maintenance (update) themselves.

    But somehow I have felt that they are a little too big and cumbersome (and too expensive), not excepting Sharepoint Portal from Microsoft.

    In coming Windows Portal Services, which is a different product than Sharepoint Portal, more light and flexible and more powerful IMO. You kind of build your own content managing system with components.

    Here are some links:
    Windows SharePoint Services download
    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/technologies/sharepoint/default.mspx

    Windows SharePoint Services Administrator's Guide
    http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=a637eff6-8224-4b19-a6a4-3e33fa13d230&displaylang=en

    Reference case
    http://www.sharepoint-portal.com/article.htm

    By the way the system I outlined above could just as well be done with Java Webstart!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  60. Rolf,
    >
    > By the way the system I outlined above could just as well be done with Java Webstart!
    >

    Thanks for the links.

    BTW, no one I know uses Java WebStart for anything, Sun has lost a lot of credibility on it and similar. If that is what you compared to, it makes sense.

    .V
  61. Microsoft components[ Go to top ]

    Vic,

    Windows SharePoint Services (WSS) - http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/technologies/sharepoint/default.mspx

    SharePoint Portal Server 2003 (SPS) - http://office.microsoft.com/home/office.aspx?assetid=FX010909721033

    Point of clarification: WSS was formerly known as SharePoint Team Sites, which allow kind of ad-hoc, team-based collaboration sites that tend toward conversations, tasks, document sharing and the like. SPS is the full-blown portal site development framework, I guess more similar to what one would see in WebSphere Portal for example.

    The relation between the two: WSS is a subset of SPS; one can create team sites from SPS portal sites, but not vice versa. WSS is installed as a feature of Windows Server 2003.

    I guess if you were really interested, that's more than enough to understand the relation to start.

    Hope you have a Happy New Year,
    Mike
  62. *sigh*[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    you stated .Net being far superior to Java in every way (you called it a superset), but could you give some good arguments to back this up because I fail to recognize how this is possible. Personally I see advantages in .Net and in Java, and choosing one or the other is a choice that must be done very early in the project; for some projects .Net is better, and for others Java is the way.

    you clearly disagree on this, because as you put it .Net could replace Java completely and above all outperform it in every way (your words)

    you'll probably come and tell me you argumented this before, or post a link to some benchmark; but I'm not talking about technical performance (of course native is faster than emulated) ... I'm talking about the big picture

    anyway, if you choose to resort to funny remarks à la ("A Chump at Oxford") or hide behind some other post claiming .Net's superiority, feel free to do so... but I would like to add some value to this discussion

    I try to be open-minded, but frankly I think your arguments are so weak they cannot withstand debate.

    regards
    Wouter.
  63. *sigh*[ Go to top ]

    <!--you stated .Net being far superior to Java in every way (you called it a superset)-->

    Hi: draft I don't think so the above argument hold any technical merit, but lets narrow down our discussion to ASP.NET vs. JSP (the presentation tier). Before proceeding further I would like to do one comment; when it comes to middleware and data tier J2EE is a far superior platform then .NET. EJB is an industry standard and a much more used and mature middle tier than COM+ (I don't want to start a debate here, there already has been enough arguments on this topic), even some people in MS camp suggested not to use COM+ since the emergence of .NET, and it is not a very common practice to use COM+ in .NET. At data tier level the concept of O/R mapping, JDO and entity bean has no counter part in .NET, even though in my personal opinion ADO.NET is a bit more advance API than JDBC.

    But when you compare apples to apples (JSP and ASP.NET) I give my vote to ASP.NET for many different concrete reasons. First of all, the presentation tier has always been overlooked and looks down upon in Java world on the other hand MS camp always has been very intuitive about it. It is so ironic that Java folks always tout to have some thing that is simpler at presentation tier, so an average developer who doesn’t know much Java can work easily at this tier, but never live up to their promises. Have you ever checked the last time how cryptic and cumbersome your JSP world became since the inclusion of JSP tag library, EL, etc? It’s easier to learn enough Java to be a presentation tier developer than to grasp these concepts.

    Here are some concrete features that are still missing from the JSP side. There is no match of server controls/web forms (Java is catching up with it with JSF but they are still way behind) in JSP world so far, besides that there is no standard way of output caching the pages and controls in JSP model. My 2 cents...
  64. *sigh*[ Go to top ]

    Rashid,

    Rashid: when it comes to middleware and data tier J2EE is a far superior platform then .NET. EJB is an industry standard and a much more used and mature middle tier <SNIP>

    Vic: EJB is the worst part of J2EE. and ... I see it used mostly by new developers. Anything compated to EJB... and EJB comes in 2nd. Even poor people who use JDBC have it better. As you stated, many thread on TSS point out how bad EJB's are (Words like:"At a seminar 9 out of 9 speakers said they can't think on any time that EJB should be used). So if you use EJB, .NET is better IMO.

    Rashid: > But when you compare apples to apples (JSP and ASP.NET) I give my vote to ASP.NET for many different concrete reasons. First of all, the presentation tier has always been overlooked and looks down upon in Java world

    Vic: Agree. Sun is Famous for bad UI. But on larger proejcts, Java developers don't do UI. The graphic artist do UI. That is why I say MVC for large projects, even if you do MVC in .NET (MavNet). Do you want Java developer doing UI? Not on my project. And people use DreamWeaver and TopStyle CSS and Javascript and DHTML. .NET and J2EE have to code to the W3 HTML or XHTML spec.

    Rolf. Have you ever checked the last time how cryptic and cumbersome your JSP world became since the inclusion of JSP tag library, EL, etc? It’s easier to learn enough Java to be a presentation tier developer than to grasp these concepts.

    Vic: ?? I do not follow you here. You have to know W3 HTML submit. In .NET they have webforms, which are page controller, a developer doing UI, which is good for deprtmental level site. For a larger site you need a developer and an architecture like MVC, like I have been saying. Same browser, right and MVC, right for both? So you can use any view. I gave a link to MacroMedia Flex, you you do Sruts with Flash, or Laszlo , or just put a lot of CSS and JavaScript. Handcrafted HTML page will give you better UI and chepaer cost of operatining and maintaing.

    Rolf: There is no match of server controls/web forms (Java is catching up with it with JSF but they are still way behind) in JSP world so far, besides that there is no standard way of output caching the pages and controls in JSP model.

    Vic: Caching pages and conttols is done by the container, most do it diferent. Resin is as fast as a static cached html page by Apache, so that is a record AFAIK. If you are saying data caching, in MVC you cache data at the data layer, in the DAO. I agree, that if you have a small site that uses page controller, you can use .NET or http://wwws.sun.com/software/products/jscreator/index.html, click on the image to see page controller and all the layers in one place where Java Developer can write UI and a prototype for a small site. Do some prototypes get deployed to production for a medium sites? Yes. But sometimes a large architecture is deployed to a small site of 20 concurent users. Just know when to use each.

    I think you are saying that for small sites (PageController/Access) .NET is supperior. OK! MS Access level tools have a place. I am saying... I work on larger MVC sites with real developer tools.

    Also, I think people imply that MS is better than Sun for developers. I agree. But I also think that OSS (open source) is better than MS for the large proftiable sites.

    And a lot of skills are similar. On the view use JavaSciprt or Flash type, on the back end you do SQL and stored procedures.... so debate is in the middle. JVM or CLR. Unless you are not doing MVC, so you do all 3 layers in VB or Java, but that is not cost efficient for developers or for maitanance.

    And corporate secreaties should have a tool for them, I am not against that. I do not care what they use.

    .V
  65. tell me[ Go to top ]

    Vic you certainly are in a peculiar mood to day. What is it with you and this talk again and again about corporate secretaries like a broken record?

    What would you call an application, consisting of 60.000 rows of advanced C# code that you download and deploy over the Web (like webstart) that can do ad hoc SQL queries (among lots of other functionality) and where you from the menu can open any database of your choice, Oracle, SQL Server or whatever and also optionally open a local Access database that is automatically is synchronized over Internet and allow you to work online?

    The work of a secretary?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  66. tell me[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: > What would you call an application, consisting of 60.000 rows of advanced C# code that you download and deploy over the Web (like webstart) that can do ad hoc SQL queries (among lots of other functionality) and where you from the menu can open any database of your choice, Oracle, SQL Server or whatever and also optionally open a local Access database that is automatically is synchronized over Internet and allow you to work online?
    >
    Vic: It depends. How many concurent users? Also, did it have ROI(Return on ivnestment afet development and on going operating costs? Can it be maintained?
    So what was the cost of SharePoint, Access per user, MS SQL server, etc.
    No mater what the tools, if you have profit, it's profesional.
    It seems that you did not use WebForms, after saying there is no such thing in Java, or did you?
    You can do MVC with .Net, such as Mavnet.

    I assume your client does not have any Mac PCs, most large orgnaizations do. Also why not use a Flash front end like Flex or similar.

    If you had to do this in J2EE, how would you?
    ALso... there was a question in the thread what is .Net, maybe you can answer.

    It is unprofesional of me to crtisize another developers design, pardon me.
    Anyway, that's it for me on this thread, I will read you answer, but this has less and less to do with the thread of Struts MVC vs .NET page controller

    .V
  67. tell me[ Go to top ]

    "What would you call an application, consisting of 60.000 rows of advanced C# code that you download and deploy over the Web (like webstart) that can do ad hoc SQL queries (among lots of other functionality) and where you from the menu can open any database of your choice, Oracle, SQL Server or whatever and also optionally open a local Access database that is automatically is synchronized over Internet and allow you to work online? "---> We've done that, not with java but with some other tool and actually the remote deployment wasn't that hard at all (we deploy it thru web and directly to desktop as standard windows forms), it has a built-in report builder, you can select the source of data you want (not only relational databases but XML,XDB,DB2 running on mainframe, any ODBC-compliant database, text...)... just using less than 5,000 lines of code (we used Forte4GL aka UDS).

    Does it mean anything? dunno... does a 60,000 lines of code application mean the work of a secretary? maybe... if u have monkey-coders you may end-up having 120,000 lines of code (and that does not mean your app is better, just bloated) or maybe those 60,000 loc are justified.
  68. tell me[ Go to top ]

    I mean "work offline" of course.
  69. *sigh*[ Go to top ]

    Normally I try to avoid funny remarks but I am sure that Vic has a sense of humor. He knows he is not among the 80% In fact I am positively sure he is in the 2% segment! But even he can have a blind spot.

    Of course .NET is a better product because it was build after Java and could draw upon Java experience and then add a good deal more. You can even program in Java in .NET!

    Java on the other hand is a language constructed for embedded devices that happened to glide into web-development as a coincidence. Now it is patch on patch and completely balkanized.

    Windows benefits from more than two decades of intense, heavily funded development. Because Windows has had such a longer product life cycle Windows is more than just Windows.

    But it is not only that. The superiority of Microsoft is that it is a cohesive product group. You can not do everything at the server. WinXP clients with its productivity programs work together and in consort with Win2003 Server with another large suite of programs. Just study how Infopath works with Sharpoint Services for example.

    We do not care for Internet servers for ordinary HTML or simple PHP pages. That is better served by the advertising agencies. The mainstream spot is the department "workhorse" servers, and systems up to 5000 users. More than 90% of the income from contract consulting comes from this segment.

    When you program in C#.NET you can build with upon hundreds - literary thousands of powerful of objects - components made in C/C++. Each program in the Windows world - even the tiniest is build from components that is available to outside program. When you choose a solution for the customer more than 50% of the work is finished already - and with a much better quality that if you should do everything yourself.

    Finally there is an other factor. In its eagerness to get at Microsoft (all successes breeds envy) the Java world have fallen back on "Computer Science". It makes them feel better. But do not be lured by a person that blurbs out: "Organize inter-service transfers according to use cases from known domain objects into a coarse-grained Composite". It is almost a certainty that he is an "impractical well meaning theoretician". And the JSR are the epitome of bureaucratic committee management.

    Do not misunderstand me. There are a lot of good ideas and project in the Java world. But thanks to the balkanization they never get the funding and backing they deserve. And Open Source? They lack the little extra touch that is called "finishing work".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  70. Choices![ Go to top ]

    Rolf >>
    You use Sharepoint Services which is included free in Win2003
    <
    How much did you pay for Win2003? Or did I miss something?
  71. Comment on ASP.net web controls.[ Go to top ]

    HI,

    I used ASP.net to reproduce something I did with JSP/Servlets about 2 years ago when ASP.net was in its final Beta and also worked with the first release.

    The web controls seem very nice, but in reality to two really important controls - calendar and Datagrid are easily found in the Java JSP world with several tag-libs that are out there.

    In terms of overall layout if you really know CSS and HTML (block level tags versus inline tags - Logical inline tags vs. Physical inline tags )you would instantly see that these GUI building controls actually get in the way.With good knowledge of the above (and it's not hard) you can put out nice pages in minutes.

    For me the time in creating an application is not found in creating the view, rather it's in the database operations ... still need to look at Hybernate.

    Stef
  72. I don't think so ![ Go to top ]

    Listen, I don't agree that you can layout professional looking pages by dragging and dropping ASP.NET Components. .NET does NOT solve the most basic GUI problem. Do you want to PROGRAM a gui, or do you want to LAYOUT a GUI. THis is the problem with all the 'drag and drop' gui tools. They typically fall somewhere in the middle.

    I think the TAPESTRY approach ( I know very little about tapestry ) is the right approach. You layout you GUI and associate behavior with the various controls.



    thanx
  73. .NET far superior to J2EE[ Go to top ]

    I agree very much with this article. I was never a pro-Microsoft professional. But, I have to appreciate the work done by Microsoft to give a highly productive environment (than Java/J2EE), which is excellent in every direction; Windows GUI, Web GUI and server-side development. I cannot imagine how complex the J2EE technology is. Microsoft simply showed how easy it is to implement Distributed applications. Good Job MS !!
  74. First of all, let me say that I'm a J2EE developer that has been working with ASP.NET for the last 6mths.

    When developing webforms in ASP.NET you can choose to use either the GridLayout or the FlowLayout. The GridLayout is great for dragging and dropping webcontrols, but the GridLayout does not support any outher browser except IE. So for those developers that still care to support other browsers the only choice is the FlowLayout. In the FlowLayout you have to use "Old School" HTML tags like TABLE and DIV to get your page the way you want it. This, in my opinion is much, much easier to do by writing the HTML yourself.

    Even if you chose to use the GridLayout, the HTML and CSS that the .NET Studio creates can be so bulky that if your web designers use a different IDE, they would have a very difficult time deciphering the generated code.
  75. I don't get it[ Go to top ]

    I've never understood the point of these articles from MS. If my employer wanted to risk everything on MS products, including the security issues and vendor lock in costs, then they'd be using .NET. Since they want alternatives they HAVE to use Java/J2EE. So what is the point of this article? Do they not get that choosing Java/J2EE over .NET has NOTHING to do with technology?
  76. Very good point. Whoever you are or whichever side you take in this debate, it really doen't matter since I doubt YOU are THE one to make the decision. The best thing as a software engineer can do nowdays is TRY to INFLENCE some decisions that out of your touch. J2EE and .NET debate has been going on for years and a smart CIO/CTO will have both of them in his talents pool. Also I totally agree that the 'switich' between .NET and J2EE for a seasoned OO programmer should be fairly easy.
  77. argumentation from the 80%..[ Go to top ]

    Rashid Jilani
    "develop a professional website using drag and drop"

    Please, nobody does drag and drop anymore, pages is made by professional designers..

    Vic Cekvenich
    "MS Access has nice UI, ..I don't use it"
    Access is a single user datebase and as such - the best in the world - the industry standard. Perfect for making the local copy for "occasional connected systems".

    The arguments of the Java zealots never cease to amaze me, "MS Access is not as good database as Oracle!" My God ;)

    The .NET world is a superset and far superior to Java in every way. Above all it is always faster with the same memory requirement. Get used to it.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  78. Hi, I cannot reconcile a. .Net is performant on MS platforms with b. ASP .net closes db connections after each operation (i.e. to support disconnected operation).

    This doesn't seem right. Solving the distributed transaction problem w/ complicated data structures in a multi-user environment is not easy.. and opening/closing connections after each user/page hit seems woefully inadequate. Is it really true?
  79. Although the title indicates that this article cpmpares Struts/ASP.NET..but reading further, it dives into J2EE vs. ASP.NET...and for that comparision, this paper is too weak.
  80. JSP web controls tag library[ Go to top ]

    I liked the ASP.NET web controls as well, so I started to work on a similar approach in JSP.

    See jspx.sf.net for more information. JSPX uses a pre-processor (so you can still use plain HTML), and also uses the concept of code-behind classes.

    I still need to implement the view-state thing, and would like to add additional controls, like the datagrid.

    Barry
  81. history repeat itself[ Go to top ]

    Interesting. Don’t forget to implement the user Control, the single most important advantage in the .NET world IMO; that you can construct a Control from an ordinary page - just by inheriting from System.Web.UI.UserControl instead of System.Web.UI.Page.

    Rashid Jilani:
    "the presentation tier has always been overlooked and looks down upon in Java world"

    Just so. Not to speak of the wall of non-understanding you meet when you try to talk about off-line use and occasial-connected clients. It is like you are speaking Sanskrit (the difficult northern variant not the south). And when you try to make them understand that client applications is Web-aware and have an important place in the scheme they just stand and stare at you and you may very well wonder if they have gone into some cationic state.

    This contempt of the user, very well illustrated in this thread will be J2EE’s downfall, just as it was for the old mainframe hegemony.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  82. history repeat itself[ Go to top ]

    Rolf, you're a bit too dramatic in stating that Java/Sun has "contempt for the user". MS has the largest focus on the user because it owns the user - it has a monopoly on the user. MS has a "cohesive product group" because it has a monopoly. .NET, just like IE, will be ubiquitous thanks to being shipped with all future versions of Windows. Even if .NET were garbage, it would still become a success because it's going to be on nearly everyone's computer.

    To me, .NET has most of what Java/J2EE has plus it has already made some decisions for you (and on average, those design decisions by MS are pretty good - ASP.NET definitely has some nice touches that J2EE could use) plus it offers more power/integration because it's all part of a bigger monopoly, joining Office and IE, all giving thanks to Windows. But Rolf, please spare us comments like "J2EE's contempt for the user" or "Open Source lacks finishing touches". It's hard to compete with MS's focus on the user when MS has a monopoly on the user, and the latter comment is the sort of broad-brush, completely unsubstantiated claim that is usually reserved for zealots.

    Rob
  83. Robert,
    I didn't wrote the example to show my technical brilliance. It was to show that Access has its place in the scheme of things, at the client, and is useful for the professional developer. And about the 60.000 vs 5000 rows - perhaps you missed "among lots of other functionality". As long as you don't know what that is comparisons are useless. It is not a contest between you and me.

    Rob,
    Everything you say is correct. I am not going to apologize though, we deal in many absurdities, this is no more that an ordinary example.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  84. "I didn't wrote the example to show my technical brilliance. It was to show that Access has its place in the scheme of things, at the client, and is useful for the professional developer."--->Ok, Granted but I still dont see the relationship between Access having its place and 60K lines of C# code.

    "And about the 60.000 vs 5000 rows - perhaps you missed "among lots of other functionality". As long as you don't know what that is comparisons are useless. It is not a contest between you and me"---> I dont have to compete with anybody. But you are right since "As long as you don't know what that is comparisons are useless" means that the same applies to you. Am i right? Maybe you missed the Mainframe integration part... (if you can do it with access, please teach me)

    My whole point is that you seem to very trigger happy when throwing arguments but after a carefull read, anyone can notice the holes in them. And as soon as they point them out, you start throwing diferent arguments.

    No need to answer me, but I wonder why I dont see you posting in Australian forums anymore...
  85. JSP web controls tag library[ Go to top ]

    I liked the ASP.NET web controls as well, so I started to work on a similar approach in JSP.

    >
    > See jspx.sf.net for more information. JSPX uses a pre-processor (so you can still use plain HTML), and also uses the concept of code-behind classes.
    >
    > I still need to implement the view-state thing, and would like to add additional controls, like the datagrid.
    >

    If you like page controller! a big if for me?, for that architecture you can use JSF. (I liked Sun's Rave screen shot that shows you can do drag and drop if you purchase the Sun's IDE) There is a place for Access level departmental apps.

    And there is a place for MVC.

    Look, there is even place for COBOL and 3270. But I agree with people that say that tools is not important. C# or Java, who cares.

    What I am saying is important... when using page controller (like JSF), you have limited UI and not as maintinable, scaleable. (in any langage)
    When you do MVC (in any langage, like MavNet) you can have a graphi artist create UI, and it is easier to maintain and scale, for example change the UI layer to another technlogy, or have 2 diferent Presentation layers go to same application, and more.

    Anyway, I had fun reading the original article. I like that MS is thinking about Struts.

    .V
  86. JSP web controls tag library[ Go to top ]

    I liked the ASP.NET web controls as well, so I started to work on a similar approach in JSP.

    >
    > See jspx.sf.net for more information. JSPX uses a pre-processor (so you can still use plain HTML), and also uses the concept of code-behind classes.
    >
    > I still need to implement the view-state thing, and would like to add additional controls, like the datagrid.
    >
    > Barry

    It seems great. Using HTML for dynamic pages is much better than using custom tag libraries like Struts.

    IMO, in JSP it should be possible to overwrite the root namespace, and then we could create custom tag libraries to overwrite standard HTML tags like text, input, form and other. In the end, we are using dreamweaver or frontpage to create dynamic web pages.

    * we can overwrite the root namespace by using JSP XML syntax
  87. JSP web controls tag library[ Go to top ]

    I liked the ASP.NET web controls as well, so I started to work on a similar

    >approach in JSP.
    you can see a lot of ASP.NET similar controls in Coldtags suite:
    www.servletsuite.com/jsp.htm

    Eugene
  88. This article provides some information on .NET but the Comparison is absurd and biased.

    The information that Microsoft missed is the benefit of the flexibility that J2EE API (by itself) + other API when combined together.

    What I believe is that MS .NET is a very rigid and BUGGY framework on a single BUGGY OS (My current exp tells me that).

    As MS mentions the cost of portability may be very high using Java is totally insane. Yes it can take some time tuning, but it is not like writing a completely rewrite of a old VB application to VB.NET or another language on Windows, UNIX or Mac OS.

    There are lot of items in the article that shows either MS doesn't have concrete knowledge of the J2EE + other API's or they are providing incorrect information to the MS Developers. (Shame if true).

    Very few may care how many languages .NET may support as long as it serves a purpose and expertise and manpower is available. Less Developers/Expertise means more Application Development/Maintenance/Support cost. Ex: VB (say 5 or 6) experts may need some time to get used to the VB (.NET). Forget other languages .NET may support and even the hardcore MS developers moving to it.

    MS has to go a long way to go with .NET where Java already is. May be with the Java Experience their journey will be short.

    Java is known for its simplicity. Some feel J2EE specs complex but will get tuned in coming yrs. Web Services are already part of the J2EE specs now (1.4)

    Sun is just playing leading role in developing the Specs for the technology with the help of various other key vendors.

    As many also know that the Leading Providers for J2EE Technology are some other companies (IBM, BEA etc..)

    There is no Monopoly in Java Technology and that's the reason all are making money and also technology is now well spread in client and especially in Server Side arena.
  89. Subterfuge via proxy[ Go to top ]

    Ah, TSS guys did not want to yet again appear like the villain, so they had somebody else post this article. Quite smart and cunning.
  90. Lets look at some good point[ Go to top ]

    Dotnet is really comparable to J2EE. But it is nowhere as superior as was claimed in the article.
    One good point I can see in dotnet development is Visual Studio.Net. It is the best IDE on earth. I have very rarely seen java or J2ee development using JBuilder or websphere studio or some other java IDE. At least for my five years of java development I have never used it.
  91. Another person who's never use IDEA[ Go to top ]

    "Visual Studio.Net. It is the best IDE on earth." rotfll. Try IDEA from IntelliJ for a while then come back and talk about IDEs. If you've not used it then, imho, you shouldn't be talking about what's "the best IDE on earth".
  92. Thanks Alex for pointing out a good IDE. I have never tried it. But I will definitely try it. Perhaps it&#8217;s not a very old product and during the last 2 years I have been in MS development. That&#8217;s why I missed it.
    I was just checking out IntelliJ web site for their IDEA.I found one screen shot under a heading &#8220;intelligence & usability&#8221;. In the screen shot, next to one line of java code, Which is String line = reader.readLine();, I found a list of tips to be appeared and among the list items, one item is &#8220;Add Exception(s) to Method Signature&#8221;.
    Is that intelligence or usability?
  93. What is for sure is you are an idiot.
  94. summing up[ Go to top ]

    With the WWW-boom everything dramatically changed

    Nobody, no matter what they say - not even Tim Berners-Lee, was able to foresee the WWW - including Billy Joe that claims he "invented the net":)

    Some, like Microsoft that had won their position in competition with some of the very best including OS2, Macintosh, Amiga and Atari found that the rules of the business had changed almost overnight and they had to start all over again.

    Others like Sun found that suddenly they was saved (under the gallow) from their idiotic business idea (selling Workstations without a decent graphical environment) and they could make a lot of money just by selling boxes to serve simple pages for porno sites and marketing fluff.

    And MS was bashed for how stupid Windows was adapted for Internet, security and otherwise. That Microsoft recovered from this blow is amazing.

    Now the situation is reverted again and the situation is like before - MS have the best tools and OS on the server. But the other side is still nostalgic to the short period of glee..

    You have to pay respect to an organization that could do such an turnaround in such a short time. Most companies when they grow turn into bureaucratic pettifoggery and hire relatives en masse (like Sun). Not so Microsoft. They still have a "developer culture".

    So what will be the next paradigm shift? Nobody knows but it could very well be the "combination of desktop and serverside power". The example with Infopath and Sharepoint is just a first example - many more will follow.

    Happy new year to everyone.

    Rolf Tollerud
  95. summing up[ Go to top ]

    wow... throwing new stuff in when you can't give an answer? I still wonder why you said what you said regarding sessions....
  96. viewstate on Java server?`[ Go to top ]

    Hi Robert,

    If you read the thread you can see that it was not I that changed the subject from performance to OS stability to Access and so on. It can not go on forever! I know nothing of sessions that can be any value to you because as I said, I never use it - on recommendation from Microsoft. You must ask a better expert than me!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  97. viewstate on Java server?`[ Go to top ]

    "I know nothing of sessions that can be any value to you because as I said, I never use it - on recommendation from Microsoft. You must ask a better expert than me!"---> you may be able to answer 2 questions for me:

    1.If Microsoft does not recommend the use of sessions: why did they implement sessions in .NET?

    2. Are you implicitly accepting the fact you don't have the expertise (besides following the advise from MS) as to state that sessions should be avoided and that stateless is the way to go?

    I guess, since you are a real programmer and have a thinking of his own, you will be able to answer my questions...
  98. help wanted[ Go to top ]

    I have requested Dion for a new thread so to see what the real heavyweights - Juergen Hoeller, Mike Spille, Vic et al think about this.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  99. help wanted[ Go to top ]

    Rolf -

    You think it requires a new thread to debunk your silly assertion that sessions are useless for web applications? Yet you haven't given one supporting piece of evidence, other than someone at Microsoft (maybe Bill Gates .. I heard he works there) told you not to use them?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  100. help wanted[ Go to top ]

    Hi Cameron,

    Only "silly"? Have you lost your touch? I would have expected a more colorful epithet.

    Beside I still would have counted you as a "real programmer" after all.. but everyone grows old, or so it seems.

    My best regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  101. help wanted II[ Go to top ]

    "I know nothing of sessions that can be any value to you because as I said, I never use it - on recommendation from Microsoft. You must ask a better expert than me!"---> you may be able to answer 2 questions for me:

    1.If Microsoft does not recommend the use of sessions: why did they implement sessions in .NET?

    2. Are you implicitly accepting the fact you don't have the expertise (besides following the advise from MS) as to state that sessions should be avoided and that stateless is the way to go?

    I guess, since you are a real programmer and have a thinking of his own, you will be able to answer my questions...

    -----

    I wonder why Rolf is silent about the above and hasn't answer yet... I am very worried...
  102. I have just return from the five day course at the Pataphysical Institute in London and now I am fluent in "Javaspeak". I can easely - on the spur of the moment talk like this:

    Session J2EE Event Parsing by Rolf Tollerud

    <irony>Do business studies with necessity have to study the existing pull parser interface? There is of course some grounds for maintaining that it must. The enterprise archtect should study things in the world, not phantasmagorias. Watch us use the pluggable inter-service transfer model to perform some cool tricks and at the same time using the field of J2EE domain, management and organization studies to shown a tendency to use highly utopian modes of problem-solving reveling in best-case scenarios and case-studies where every dissonant chord is carefully removed in the interest of object persistence. Not beeing irresponsible hobbyists -- "Microsoft hackers", we try to avoid the marginal space, where wishful thinking meets the friction of reality. When the inputs are taken from the real world they are often used to create fancies and legerdemains, utopias of best- or imagined domain use-case scenarios, not so obviously made-up coarse-grained Composites - the innovative corporation, the spiritual firm, the worldclass solution is condoned and even assumed.</irony>

    So you see? WHen I can learn Javaspeak then you can surely learn to program stateless web applications!

    Let it be your New Year promise!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  103. I have just return from the five day course at the Pataphysical Institute in London and now I am fluent in "Javaspeak". I can easely - on the spur of the moment talk like this:

    >
    >

    Rolf,

    First you quoted Laurel and Hardy, now it's Pataphysique. You're so European(-centric). If you want to be understood, get back to The Three Stooges and Superman.
  104. Rolf,

    Stateless applications are great, when the applications are indeed stateless.

    However, most "applications" (not web sites, but actual applications) have state that is managed on behalf of the user for a sequence of user interactions over a period of time, often referred to as a "session". You cannot simply wish away the need for state. You may move it to the client, or to the database, but that state is still there. You can leave it in the application server tier (e.g. HttpSession) as well.

    In other words, you may call what you are doing "stateless", but it is simply a matter of who is managing the state and what the engineering trade-offs are for that choice.

    As one example, with a particular .NET application I witnessed the average request size of 180KB because the app screens (DHTML+script) managed massive blobs of state in hidden fields and passed it to the server on every request.

    As another example, I've seen an application that managed several megabytes of data per HttpSession object, and the data was not user-specific, meaning that it could have been in a global cache instead of in each HttpSession.

    So it's easy to make bad engineering decisions, as ASP.NET shows in general for large-scale applications and some J2EE applications show in their use of HttpSessions.

    As for your own bad engineering decisions that you are referring to, I hardly have enough details at this point to mock you convincingly.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  105. It seems like Dion is not going to start a new thread so I guess I have to keep on.

    You know very well that in 99% of the ordinary cases (mainstream departmental workhouse servers and apps up to 5000 users) the only thing that is necessary to pass on the round trip is an encrypted sessionID. No doubt you can construct other cases but why always take up odd, "far out" cases?

    If you look at normal J2EE application you discover that they not only use sessions all the time but also EJB and O/R frameworks (instead of something simple like iBATIS) and heavy commercial J2EE servers in the great majority of cases instead the other way around. And when you check the presentation layer and find out that it is of type "one table on each page where you can add, edit and delete a row" you wonder why they did not just used a tool. They put so much effort in the server side that their resources are spent!

    <quote> Richard Öberg
    Bye bye JBoss
    "so we removed all dependencies on JBoss from our CMS SiteVision. Now we can run it with just Tomcat, and boy does it run. For development this is going to be great, since Tomcat starts much MUCH faster than JBoss. It also seems like its faster overall, and I think..."</quote>

    But why did he put in JBoss in the first case?

    It is the combination of over-engineering and this disgusting "Javaspeak" that turns me off.

    The J2EE world needs to do some seriously self-examination instead of bashing MS all the time if you want to stay in the game.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  106. Rolf: You know very well that in 99% of the ordinary cases (mainstream departmental workhouse servers and apps up to 5000 users) the only thing that is necessary to pass on the round trip is an encrypted sessionID.

    So you are suggesting that people use sessions then?

    Please, make up your mind, before someone else becomes as confused as you are.

    Perhaps you are getting confused between HTTP sessions and Session EJBs? After all, they both contain the word "session" in them, and years ago that did confuse some people.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  107. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    Arthur Bloch
  108. Rolf is speechless?[ Go to top ]

    Touché.

    The only fool bigger than the one who knows it all is the one who argues with
    him.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  109. "You know very well that in 99% of the ordinary cases (mainstream departmental workhouse servers and apps up to 5000 users) the only thing that is necessary to pass on the round trip is an encrypted sessionID. No doubt you can construct other cases but why always take up odd, "far out" cases?"---> An encripted session ID is useless if used alone itself (even though, it can still be used as a trasanction token, provided it is unique and generated on a per connection basis). Session ID exist to provide a unique way to identify a "session" and by doing so, the state data attached to it. Session ID are encripted just for security purposes. But the bottom line is that still, there is the need for a session, otherwise, state information should be stored in database (which is not scalable) or in a cache of some sort (which may imply additional complexity for managing the cache).

    "If you look at normal J2EE application you discover that they not only use sessions all the time but also EJB and O/R frameworks..."--->You are wrong. To use J2EE does not mean to use EJB (but the oposite is true). Normal J2EE application are the ones that use only servlets, only JSP's, Servlets+JSP's or the whole package: Servlet+JSP+EJB (or EJB + client running in a client container... have you tried it yet?). If you are refering to a issue with sessions, you may distinguish between all the diferent type of sessions available in that mix: http / EJB sessions. They both are used to store state information but are intended for diferent things. Again, sessions are OK as long as they are used properly.
  110. Roberto,

    > "otherwise, state information should be stored in database (which is not scalable)"

    Is that really so, how interesting :)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  111. You know something Roberto? At least you argue honestly, I give you that.

    You don't pretend that I am advocating Access on the server when I talking about the client, or pretend that I say that Linux is unstable when I say that WinX/Gnome is unstable or pretend that I don't know HTTP sessions or Session EJBs. I give you a warning though - arguing honestly is not going to give you much success - to achieve that you have to fish in more murky water.

    What many persons in the J2EE world don’t realize is that this combination of over-engineering and "Javaspeak" is comical to many persons - I seriously consider to earn money on a sideline as "J2EE Standup comedian". There certainly is an abundance of material.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  112. Rolf,
    >
    > What many persons in the J2EE world don’t realize is that this combination of over-engineering and "Javaspeak" is comical to many persons -

    I toooootaly agree with you Rolf.
    Something about Java newbies lets them talk like this:
    "recipes for ten-minute soup while Sun is more like -First the seed is planted, then cellular mitosis expresses genetic characteristics...let's stop to look at the details of nucleotides, shall we?"

    (quote from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0596001703/qid=1073239831/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2312561-5340657?v=glance&s=books )

    Those are not real Java developer that have ever put anything in production. For some reason... there is a sub culture in Java that talks buzz-word-bingo. I agree that to profesional developers talk like that is silly and commic.

    C++,C#, Linux, PHP, other community tend not to have that sub-culture.

    .V

    .V
  113. Dangrous opponent[ Go to top ]

    Ha ha Vic, Thank you. Even if you are on the "other side" I have to admit that I certainly do not want to compete against you using for Resin iBATIS and the framework of your choise :)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  114. Rolf,

    You haven't answered my questions yet (I think they are easy to answer but who knows...). So, here are they again:

    "I know nothing of sessions that can be any value to you because as I said, I never use it - on recommendation from Microsoft. You must ask a better expert than me!"---> you may be able to answer 2 questions for me:

    1.If Microsoft does not recommend the use of sessions: why did they implement sessions in .NET?

    2. Are you implicitly accepting the fact you don't have the expertise (besides following the advise from MS) as to state that sessions should be avoided and that stateless is the way to go?

    I guess, since you are a real programmer and have a thinking of his own, you will be able to answer my questions...

    I'd really appreciate a clear answer from you (and I'll be worried if you can't produce one )
  115. ok, very well[ Go to top ]

    Turn of all session management for the application. (And also "Viewstate if you are using .NET)

    After login, you generate a unique encrypted sessionID which is based upon userid and the current connection, save it in a hidden field between roundtrips.

    That id needs to be a parameter in all calls to the database of course.

    Close all database connection after each call. It looks expensive but in the MS world at least, even if you have closed - ADO still keeps the object "ready" just in case - how the internals work exactly I don't know and don't care.

    That is all there is to it. If you need to preserve more info between roundtrips save it in hidden field(s). In there is a lot of info like a survey for example, save it in the database.

    That is all there is to it. It works for me and is faster than anything else I have tried.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  116. joker[ Go to top ]

    Hi Rolf,

    making fun of Java developers is surely a way to make people more angry at you. If that's your intention, its ok. But mind you, this is a Java forum, there may be lots of Java developers angry at you right now. Your .Net conversion goal may be hugely affected right now.

    > Turn of all session management for the application. (And also "Viewstate if you are using .NET)
    >
    > After login, you generate a unique encrypted sessionID which is based upon userid and the current connection, save it in a hidden field between roundtrips.

    Let me understand this: wouldn't this sessionID mean that THERE IS A SESSION ANYWAY? The only difference is where session data is stored (the server, the client, the database, the cache, whatever), but it is there. There is a session, there is state.

    >
    > That id needs to be a parameter in all calls to the database of course.
    I think I dodn't get it: what would the database do with the sessionID? Wouldn't it be cheaper and faster to have state which is tied to the client session cached in memory, if properly made? RAM is cheaper and faster than DB.

    >
    > Close all database connection after each call. It looks expensive but in the MS world at least, even if you have closed - ADO still keeps the object "ready" just in case - how the internals work exactly I don't know and don't care.

    Would you call this "connection pool" concept "javaspeak" too?

    >
    > That is all there is to it. If you need to preserve more info between roundtrips save it in hidden field(s). In there is a lot of info like a survey for example, save it in the database.

    Is it up to the programmer to create and mantain this needed state, since session management if turned off? Wouldn't be simpler if the application server managed it for me?

    >
    > That is all there is to it. It works for me and is faster than anything else I have tried.

    Don't forget that speed is not all, ease of maintenance and productivity counts too.

    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    Regards,
    Henrique
  117. joker[ Go to top ]

    Hi Roberto,

    > "wouldn't this sessionID mean that THERE IS A SESSION ANYWAY?"

    of course not, sessions are disabled, remember?

    > "Would you call this "connection pool" concept "javaspeak" too?"

    You can use a connection pool if you want to, that doesn't change the concept -the pool is common to all users.

    > "Don't forget that speed is not all, ease of maintenance and productivity counts too"

    Correct, stateless is quality that maybe is not needed for a particular solution.

    > "making fun of Java developers is surely a way to make people more angry at you"

    That is true but it is so hard to resist! I can recommend this classic, the Adventures of Till Eulenspiegel
    http://www.semcoop.com/detail/0415937639
     
    Regards

    Rolf Tollerud
    Irresponsible hobbyist - Microsoft hacker
  118. joker[ Go to top ]


    > > "wouldn't this sessionID mean that THERE IS A SESSION ANYWAY?"
    >
    > of course not, sessions are disabled, remember?

    But you still have a sessionID, would that mean that the burden of session management in .Net must be on the programmer, since sessions are disabled and this sessionID and state data must be created/maintained?

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg (not Roberto)
  119. joker[ Go to top ]

    Henrique "would that mean that the burden of session management in .Net must be on the programmer"


    Yes, exactly. You have to create your own sessionID.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  120. joker[ Go to top ]

    Henrique "would that mean that the burden of session management in .Net must be on the programmer"

    >
    > Yes, exactly. You have to create your own sessionID.
    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    Well, if you are right, then this .Net still has some of the ASP dumbness in it. IMHO, state management should be done by the application server automatically, being it such a common service. The programmer shouldn't have to be distracted from business logic coding, to code this kind of recurrent service.

    Regards,
    Henrique
  121. joker[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: Yes, exactly. You have to create your own sessionID.

    So, you have built your own session management for your .NET applications.

    That to me seems very ill-advised, but I will assume that you have good reasons
    for having done so. However, you cannot claim that it is not session management
    just because you built it yourself. You can call it cat-herding if you want to,
    but the rest of the world knows it as session management. So you do suggest the
    use of sessions, you just suggest that we avoid the ASP.NET implementation of
    sessions because it sucks and someone at Microsoft told you that, right? Well,
    whoever told you that is full of it. The ASP.NET implementation is fine, other
    than being relatively expensive and slow if you persist session in MSSQL and
    having a SPOF if you use the session server approach (or just keep them in-
    memory.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  122. speed? nah - not important[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

    I am not writing this for your sake, but for the unwashed masses which you are in your usual way trying to confuse. Of course the ASP.NET implementation of sessions is fine - better than anything you have got. The thing is that the implementation of the stateless web application in the way I described doesn't use any (session) memory at the server at all and therefore increase the performance - something that you as a representative for J2EE know nothing about.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  123. speed? nah - not important[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: I am not writing this for your sake, but for the unwashed masses
    which you are in your usual way trying to confuse. Of course the ASP.NET
    implementation of sessions is fine - better than anything you have got. The
    thing is that the implementation of the stateless web application in the way
    I described doesn't use any (session) memory at the server at all and therefore
    increase the performance - something that you as a representative for J2EE know
    nothing about.


    Rolf, using memory is a way to make things more performant, not less
    so. That is why Computer Science has long had a notion of a size/speed
    trade-off, where size refers to the amount of memory used and speed refers
    to the shortness of latency of a given operation.

    In other words, you're again finding yourself on the wrong side of well
    understood concepts, concepts understood even by me, a person with
    no computer science background and very little scientific or
    mathematical understanding. In other words, you are one of the few people
    in this world who has managed to prove that you understand less than I do.
    Congratulations! You win a doughnut!

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  124. deja vu[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

    You know something? Talking to you give me an eerie feeling, like trying to talk to the wife in the film "The Truman Show". Jim Carrey is talking to his wife and the wife is pretending to talk to him but is in reality talking to the hidden cameras making advertising for the latest vacuum cleaner or whatever, trying to get more people to buy the crappy products.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  125. deja vu[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    I guess you are trying to avoid explaining how you could claim something so
    obviously and ridiculously stupid as "using memory on the server hurts
    performance."

    When you're ready to defend at least one of the wacko things you've claimed
    in this thread, let me know. Otherwise, please keep your promise that you
    made to me some time ago.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  126. Rolf,

    I am very worried, you haven't answered clearly the 2 questions I am asking you and it is the third time, you seem to be talking about almost everything else but no answering my 2 humble questions.

    You said:
    "I know nothing of sessions that can be any value to you because as I said, I never use it - on recommendation from Microsoft. You must ask a better expert than me!"

    So, from the above:

    1.If Microsoft does not recommend the use of sessions: why did they implement sessions in .NET?

    2. Are you implicitly accepting the fact you don't have the expertise (besides following the advise from MS) as to state that sessions should be avoided and that stateless is the way to go?

    I guess, since you are a real programmer and have a thinking of his own, you will be able to answer my questions...

    PLEASE ROLF, Could you answer the above in a clear way? The first question may require some little explanation but for the second one a YES/NO would be enough.
  127. Is this some kind of endurance test?

    I said, I know nothing of sessions that can be any value to you because I am sure that you knew already what I said in my last and next to last post, after all it is hardly rocket science.

    > "why did MS they implement sessions in .NET?"

    I don't know! For the quick and dirty non critical jobs? You have to ask MS.

    > "Are you implicitly accepting the fact you don't have the expertise"

    I make myself no illusions that I am among the best in the world or even in TSS! But I do think I am a "real programmer". It would be interesting to hear what the "elite" (do you think Cameron count himself to this group?) thinks about this matter but Dion would not start a new thread, I wonder why..
    So the answer has to be YES!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  128. Very confused....[ Go to top ]

    mmm... ok, so, from you answer: is it right to conclude that you consider yourself a "real programmer" despite the fact of having no expertise on sessions (which is hardly a topic of rocket science?)

    am i right with the above?
  129. Very confused....[ Go to top ]

    Roberto,

    I was not aware that it is an age limit here in TSS! Next time you ask a question, show me the permission from your ma first.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  130. Very confused....[ Go to top ]

    Roberto,

    >
    > I was not aware that it is an age limit here in TSS! Next time you ask a question, show me the permission from your ma first.
    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    Sorry Rolf, but dont get it. What are you talking about? I just asked you a question. I haven't been unkind to you, but... is the above the answer you have for me?

    Would you mind to answer mine?
  131. Is this some kind of endurance test?


    > I said, I know nothing of sessions that can be any value to you or to anybody
    > else because I am a bleeping moron who has been given orders from above to go
    > and torture all forums that have something to do with Java.

    > This is because I'm otherwise valueless to my great boss Mr. B.G. but I can
    > still survive by mocking other people with my multiple personalities which
    > nicely complement each other.

    It's sad that one person can ruin an entire site. This could be a good place to exchange information but no - one rotten apple spoils it totally.

    Rolf, with all your commitment to a destruction of a community you deserve to be elevated to the 'ranks' of Darl McBride and others.

    As for endurance, you'll win. Others have their jobs to do as a programmers/system architects/whatever but this is your sole business so I and nobody else can not match your stamina in generating cockeyed answers.

    Don't pretend to be a programmer. "Real programmers" - the term that you used - don't bash each other mindlessly. Go back to your family have a vacation and rethink the values.
  132. Sorry you should think in this way. I am not a troll just somebody that sets the light on some unpleasant truths. Last year it was much ado and discussion about EJB, now EJB are as out of fashion as AWT. Java is a good technique - the 80% project failure rate can easily be turned around to 80% success when used correctly.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  133. Mono.[ Go to top ]

    During this lovely discussion of Linux vs Windows, .Net vs Java, I can't believe that the only place Mono was mentioned was as the prefix of "poly"

    http://www.mono-project.com/about/index.html
  134. bad manners[ Go to top ]

    Come on Rolf, show some respect for the company that opened the doors and has shown the way to M$. M$ new that Java was the way of the future, and thus cloned it blatantly with .Net, there's no denying it. So you should say thanks to Sun and Java for having your beloved .net today.

    Like in a movie:

    Java: .Net, you are my son!
    .Net: NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! (jumps in the abyss and falls off the serverside) :D

    Just dont tell me how that movie ends using your crystal ball again, please! ;)

    Happy New Year!
  135. bad manners[ Go to top ]

    But Henrique,

    Respect for Sun! You must be joking. It was the international Web community that took up Java and made it into what it is today. Sun does not make neither its own hardware nor OS and has not made a single successful program in all its life. Sun have a boss that never have been a developer or specialist of any kind, a pointy haired management fellow that prefers to spend all the day in the courts instead of working on his own products (that nobody can remember the name of the week). Sun that only have some money at all because a lucky quirk of the evolution and that have the most incompetent and arrogant staff on the planet?

    No way.

    Vic, I refuse to take any responsibility for the morons behind A U.S. Election Vote Counting Program!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  136. MS Access[ Go to top ]

    Microsoft Access (!) used as the database for national eVote:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm#password

    You know... I can't even say something.
  137. hasta la vista[ Go to top ]

    We take a break I need a vacation..
    I'll be back!

    What shall we talk about?
    Caching?

    If anyone can correctly place the quotations I just made I stay away for a longer period!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  138. hasta la vista[ Go to top ]

    If anyone can correctly place the quotations I just made I stay away for a longer period!

    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    Well, I won't try to say where they should be correctly placed, or I'd probably get banned from this forum forever!!! :D :D :D

    What a waste of bandwidth this guy is...

    Peace! :)