Sun has written an open letter to the Eclipse Foundation, just as Eclipse gains independence. Sun points out key challenges that Eclipse will face, and suggesting a "more serious" mission that would encourage Eclipse to work in concert with the Java Community and Javatools.org to make the Java platform a better, broader base for tools.
- Posted by: Dion Almaer
- Posted on: January 30 2004 17:27 EST
New from around the net
Internet News: Dawn of the New Eclipse
Infoworld: As the Sun turns
JDJ: From Sun, An Open Letter to Eclipse Membership: "Get Serious"
ZDNet: Sun urges Eclipse to unify Java world
Newsforge: An open letter to Eclipse membership from Sun
- Sun needs to "Get Serious" by Arun Patel on January 30 2004 17:38 EST
- Sun Write An Open Letter to Eclipse: "Get Serious" by Carlos Perez on January 30 2004 17:48 EST
- SUN has gone mad. they dont know whats "java community" by shawn spencer on January 30 2004 18:37 EST
- Ho Hum by Andrew Oliver on January 30 2004 19:32 EST
- Sun's FUNatics...dont seem to end by Kapil Israni on January 30 2004 20:41 EST
- Sun Writes An Open Letter to Eclipse: "Get Distracted" by scot mcphee on January 30 2004 21:46 EST
- Drop Netbeans? Are you crazy? by Steven Vetzal on January 31 2004 08:39 EST
- politics by Stu Charlton on January 31 2004 09:23 EST
- Foundation and Consortium by Lofi Dewanto on January 31 2004 09:46 EST
- Sun Writes An Open Letter to Eclipse: "Get Serious" by Colin Sampaleanu on January 31 2004 09:47 EST
- Sun Writes An Open Letter to Eclipse: "Get Serious" by Laurent BEDE on January 31 2004 13:33 EST
- Sun Writes An Open Letter to Eclipse: "Get Serious" by JT Wenting on February 09 2004 04:26 EST
- Sun Writes An Open Letter to Eclipse: "Get Serious" by Laurent BEDE on January 31 2004 13:33 EST
- SUN needs help by Fred Ruopp on February 01 2004 14:39 EST
- Sun Writes An Open Letter to Eclipse: "Get Serious" by Karim Saloojee on February 02 2004 09:47 EST
They are a group of clowns these days. Eclipse could have been part of the community, but Sun was pushing netbeans which was a POS. It seems to me that Sun is OK with anything it controls and not OK with allowing anyone else to control something the helped to build. Ask yourself this question, where would Java be today if it were not for IBM, BEA, Borland, Oracle, and Open Source? The answer is very easy, nowhere. The creator of the standards still has the worst implementation of their own specs, they need to get serious.
I used many Java IDEs, and I don't think Eclipse is so good that everyone should be a fan of it.
Let all children grow happily. If everyone use Eclipse, just like the way we embrace msdos or mswin, than we are helping to form another Microsoft. If we love to use the things other people using, why don't we cock ourselves to .net? .net! great! easy to use, robust, fast, and most of all, everyone will addict to it =OP
Just get SUN to distribute swt.dll and swt.jar with the JDK.
Typically this shows the state of affairs of Java today! Too many tools, too many 'standards' , too many application servers ... each claiming to be far better than the rest!!! Where will it end. The web is full of information ... in fact what we see is chaoes...
Every drawback or shortcoming in the existing product give rise to a new 'feature' and a buzzword... soon it becomes another "technology"!! When Java was introduced all teh claims were on the client-side programming... and the web. Today, it is all shifted to server side... and Java applications cannot exist without EJB!! What will be buzzword tomorrow???
ibm java will be just as bad M$ java
Sun seems to be under the mistaken impression that the more control it gets over Java the more it can profit. However, that seems to fly against the face of reality.
Sun has never ever figured out a way to profit from Java. Meanwhile, the rest of the industry is making a killing?
The facts are plain and simple, control of Java doesn't equate to profits. Execution equates to profits. Maybe the Sun folks should stop blaming external parties but rather look at themselves as the cause of such failure.
Unfortunately, Sun keeps playing this game. Just take a look at Rave, c'mon its been announced several months ago with a lot of fan fare, but lets be realistic, it ain't going to be revolutionary.
Sun has been the Flag Bearer of Java Community. Nobody argues about that.
In the case of Eclipse Sun must leave netbeans and should merge with Eclipse.
Why to send all wrong signals to the Open Source Community.
The sun should accept that Eclipse has retained better position than netbeans, so merge netbeans team with eclipse team that's it.
Standardize Eclipse and also sun should seriously think about 'how to integrate java and AspectJ well'
At the end of day FREE,OPEN SOURCE should get respect.
new Eclipse slogan -"Write faster on Eclipse run anywhere"
Eclipse should the best IDE of the open source.
Keep in mind microsoft products are considered 'EASIER TO USE'
we should disprove this very quickly
I've used Netbeans a lot for the last couple of years and have found it to be a pretty good IDE, one that gets considerably better with every release. I have tried Eclipse on a number of occasions - people keep telling me how great it is. But every time I try it I feel very disappointed - it seems to need quite a bit of usability work doing on it and seems to want you to work in a particular way which doesn't fit in with the way I work.
I've been playing around with the latest nightly builds of Netbeans:
If you haven't tried Netbeans lately you might be pleasantly surprised by what you see - NB 3.6 is going to be a *very* nice IDE and the responsiveness, usability and look and feel of the interface makes you wonder why anyone ever bothered inventing SWT (although I'm sure many of you will be quick to point out why!).
Granted NB doesn't have the refactoring stuff in it yet (due in 4.0) but Eclipse's deficiencies meant I never got as far as trying its functionality in that area.
Its amazing how some people would cling on to old perceptions. I have been using Netbeans for long time and I have seen it transition into a great product. Ditto for Swing. Swing on JDK1.4 is a far cry from the earlier versions of Swing. The performance factors that led to creation of SWT are no longer relevant.
Other that "Refactoring" feature of Eclipse , which by the way is copied from IDEA and wil be included in Netbeans 4, there is no reason to switch to Eclipse.
Bottomline , swing rocks -- don't take my word for it -- download IDEA or ArgoUML and see for yourself.
While there is definitely room for several IDEs, I think there is no justification for SWT . SWT needs to die!
Sun doesnt know that Eclipse has more fans than any tools of SUN. Netbeans is worst tool i have ever come across. So instead of trying to do something good by joining Eclipse , SUN is trying to be a bully and threaten Eclipse.
Whats wrong with SUN ? I know they are headed by a moron - McNeally who has brain of size of a peanut, but whats wrong with rest of them.
Are they all in a bad mood becoz
* their stocks are not worth anything for about 2 years now.
* Linux has killed solaris market and windows is still in the market.
* the server market is taken over by IBM, HP and DELL.
* no one wants Star office or Netbeans becaoz it sucks and has hell lot of issues besides being slow ass.
* the billion dollar promise by mcneally thru sales of java desktop was a castle in the dreams.
* some of great techies and inventors have left sun in recent years and there is no direction to the company as such.
The big proprietary vendors pretend to do open source and then fight about it. This letter from Sun is amusing from a comedic perspective. Its the pot calling the kettle black. While Sun hijacks open source with its JCP and beats us all over the head with an endless barrage of "standards" they are lecturing us all on "choice is good"? Doesn't that strike anyone as a little strange? Overall, my message is lets get back to work and produce REAL open source alternatives. Eclipse is a nice product and I use it (I switched from Netbeans when it got slow), but I long for a real open source alternative.
Cmon, Not again.
I havent got over Sun's letter to IBM's CEO and now this.
I dont know what Sun's up to. Instead of this wining,childish behavior they should get down to creating better products. Simple. Wats so hard, guys ?
Somehow I feel they dont only embarrass themselves, but the entire Java community as well. Folks on the other side must having a nice laugh (not that I am not) at this wining.
I think, Scott needs to go. He's not taking Sun anywhere with this. It's like a kid complaining on the success of other kid, rather beating him down in the game.
Please tell me this is the last of them...
It depends on how we interpret this message. But i would say it's better SUN directs its resource and gets Netbeans better & better..After seeing IDEA i changed my mind, JAVA Swing applications can be responsive as well.. probably as time progresses Netbeans team can make it better....
After all Java = Choice isn't it ;)
"Challenge yourselves to be more than an "exemplary framework" as stated in the Eclipse mission. Push the organization to be a unifying force for Java technology. "
This is the sort of crap thinking that Sun inflicts on the world. Instead of being tightly focussed ('I can be the best thing X I can be') they want 'I can be everything to everybody', a recipe I think that always ends in disaster. You can't please everyone. Narrowing one's ambitions helps avoid costly distractions into areas where you don't see the whole picture and can get waylaid into some distrastrous sideshow.
Jonathan Schwartz is the real problem, he and his pony tail need to go. What oes he know about software anyhow? His background is in consulting, from the bio on the sun site. He is an imposter.
Come on people, let's not forget:
1. Eclipse threw the first punch, the name of the organization is a childish attack against Sun
2. Why drop a technology that _could_ be viable with a little shaking up?
Eclipse is a great environment, but has no RAD style UI editor of its own (yeah, they're trying, but that's what Netbeans _started_ with). Sure, Netbeans is slow and in many ways broken, but I'd rather have two choices for a free IDE than only one.
SWT is great and it sucks, Swing is great and it sucks. Eclipse is great and, well maybe it doesn't suck so bad, Netbeans is great and it sucks.
At the end of the day we need to play the hand we've been dealt and get what we can out of it. Choose your cards ladies and gentlemen, with your eyes open. Don't burn the deck because you think it's the wrong colour.
And leave Jon alone ;) I've bumped into him in some obscure O/S communities, he may be more tech than you think.
This is so obviously a political message, it's really sad.
- Eclipse is widely preferred over Netbeans.
- Sun doesn't like that and can't move away from Netbeans.
- Saying that someone "get serious" is a faux attempt to suggest they're small players, and only Sun holds the "serious bits" due to its political status in the community.
What this message basically says is that Sun is too politically motivated to understand what the market has decided: Eclipse is *the* standard tool platform that people overwhelmingly prefer. I'm not taking away from BEA Workshop, Borland JBuilder and JetBrains IDEA, which are all excellent alternative IDE's. But only NetBeans and Eclipse have tried to become *standard tool platforms*. And Eclipse seems to have won -- outside of the JCP and JTC.
Perhaps Eclipse wouldn't be hurt by membership in those communities. But then again, maybe it might. The Java standards communities take 18+ months to respond to anything Microsoft does. If they find away to balance between innovating and standardizing after the fact, it might pay off. But Eclipse needs its continued ability to innovate with real working code - not specifications that take 18 months to pass.
> What this message basically says is that Sun is too politically motivated to >understand what the market has decided: Eclipse is *the* standard tool >platform that people overwhelmingly prefer. I'm not taking away from BEA >Workshop, Borland JBuilder and JetBrains IDEA, which are all excellent >alternative IDE's. But only NetBeans and Eclipse have tried to become >standard tool platforms*. And Eclipse seems to have won -- outside of the JCP >and JTC.
The message basically says, "The required mandatory transition to the Eclipse platform would inhibit development of innovative technologies". Sun wants to continue to develop their Java Studio Creator product, but Eclipse say if you want to belong to the Eclipse community you have to drop the "competing" product.
So who is actually being "Political" here? Why should ANY company have to give up "competing" technologies with open source? So do you see whats coming?...As long as we (the development community) have a choose, we ALL win Don't we?
The message basically says, "The required mandatory transition to the
> Eclipse platform would inhibit development of innovative technologies".
> Sun wants to continue to develop their Java Studio Creator product, but
> Eclipse say if you want to belong to the Eclipse community you have to drop
> the "competing" product.
According to a quote in the InternetNews article http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3306491 , Eclipse has not said that. The words "required mandatory transition" are Sun's words.
Eclipse Steward Dave Bernstein responded Friday: "To be clear, the invitation for Sun to join Eclipse at the Board of Directors level -- extended unanimously by the Eclipse Stewards -- does not require Sun to abandon or in any way deprecate the NetBeans platform. It requires Sun to take development leadership of one or more Eclipse Projects and pay annual dues, as is required of every other Strategic Developer."
That doesn't sound like a "required mandatory transition" to me.
I work for IBM but don't speak for them.
Why should people be dictating what ide people should be using when there are many outstanding "choices" out there. I've been using Borland/TogetherJ and Sun's Developer Studio for years and they're both fabulous. Yes, some things can be slow if your doing something like reverse engineering your database into EJBs, but's it's a small price for saving weeks of drudge work. Why are these initiatives not going through the JCP? How did java get this far?
IMO, IDE market will be just the same as other infrastructure products (operating system, middleware, programming language). The chance to earn money in this market will be *zero* in the next couple of years. Companies like Borland should change their direction as soon as they can. It's just a matter of time that all those bigger companies which at the moment are the customers of Borland just jump into the Eclipse wagon ;-)
Surely it will be nice to have one standardized Open Source IDE, but this won't happen in short time as Sun will stick on NetBeans and IBM on Eclipse.
I see that Eclipse is getting a better momentum than NetBeans in the community. Through the creation of Eclipse Foundation which is now supported by many other companies, IMO, NetBeans with Sun just can't compete. The idea to make Eclipse Foundation *not free* (you have to pay if you want to be the decision makers in the foundation) supports the financial aspect of the Eclipse project in a very good way. This is the best way to develop community and collaboration. In this financial hard time it's a standard way to create a foundation or consortium which is non-profit to build a better network. Let's see, all the consortiums or foundations available:
- Apache Foundation
- Object Management Group
- Java Community Process
- ObjectWeb Consortium
- Now, Eclipse Foundation
All the companies, small and big, can join and have the same level. They can drive the direction of the foundation or consortium. For many companies, this is the best way, as many of those products are not their core competency. Let's see some examples:
- Why would RedHat join ObjectWeb? RedHat does not sell middleware product directly (none of their core competency). Putting theirself into ObjectWeb is a good way to support the middleware product of the consortium so that RedHat can deliver it with their operating system. Can you imagine if RedHat with - let's say - *one* developer has to develop the middleware product alone?
=> alone we are not strong, but with others we are very strong.
IMO, many other companies, which need middleware products but do not have the core competency, will join ObjectWeb for this purpose. This is the best way. Telco companies are some examples to be mentioned here.
- Why would SAP joins Eclipse Foundation? SAP needs an IDE for Java (their ABAP IDE is nice but... :-)) Before they build their own, it's much more economical just to join Eclipse Foundation. They can sit in the steering board of Eclipse without giving a lot of money and time, comparing if they have to build their own IDE. Just a simple investment calculation ;-)
=> alone we are not strong, but with others we are very strong.
In this case I also see that a lot of big companies will join the Foundation just because of the same reason as SAP.
Just a simple fact:
In the "long term":
- would you prefer to rent a house? You pay every month, you don't have any power to do everything what you like and the rent you pay every months is just gone. At the end you don't own the house. Or
- buy a house by asking money from the bank. Maybe you pay more every month but at the end the house will be yours!
In the long term, expecially for big companies, it's just more economical to join such a foundation or consortium than to buy a product and its upgrade everytime. Therefore I said, that it's a matter of time that all those big companies (at the moment Borland's customer or so) will join Eclipse Foundation and drop Borland's products.
Sun tries to compete with bringing the Javatools activity which actually, IMO, should be the place for those IDE vendors which are now afraid of Eclipse and its Foundation. Trying to build a common specification is IMO the way to make the "death" a bit longer ;-)
This is maybe a question to Sun's decision makers: why does Sun never think about building such a foundation or consortium for NetBeans? Is this because Sun does not want to have real "products"? Instead always see everything as "specifications"?
The IDE is only part of the picture. Especially in the new 3.0 stream, the Eclipse project is very focused (and succeeding) on delivering a great rich client platform, including a usable and extensible component plugin architecture. The architecture is clean, well thought out in general, and usable. This is going to be of tremendous benefit to the entire Java community. As such, the worst thing the Eclipse project could do is let itself get distracted by Sun, and do something in a half-asses fashion (i.e. some common interop architecture that is very limited) just so Sun is happy.
Funny to see SUN behaving like M$.
Same aggressive tone, same feeling they can still dominate the world.
One thing SUN forgets : they have no alternative to propose.
SUN should merge with Apple...at least they would have access to good progammers...anyway, later on, M$ will eat SUNApple...which won't change the market, except that M$ will probably kill SUN JVM...and here not a big deal for IBM since they have their own, neither fo BEA with jRockit...I won't be surprised to see Oracle move in a direction that would allow them to get their private JVM maybe in acquiring BEA.
Funny to see SUN behaving like M$.
> Same aggressive tone, same feeling they can still dominate the world.
One small difference: Microsoft (if you mean them, which seeing from the childish rants by Microsoft haters seems likely) would buy the competitor (OK, bit hard to do in case of IBM) or try to work through standards bodies like ANSI, ISO or W3 to get their ideas accepted as the world standard.
> One thing SUN forgets : they have no alternative to propose.
Netbeans and Sun One Studio...
This is an excellent thread. Every post makes a good point. Sun is in a bad mood; they are getting the stuffing knocked out of'em; they can't seem to make much money from Java; and, talent is leaving.
But , they did give us J2EE, Jini, JXTA, J2ME while everyone else just
imbibed SUN's seminal work and created successful products.
SUN seems to have a kernel of another good idea in it's Java stack.
They need a good IDE to round it out; why not offer 2 a la KDE & GNOME.
Most people do not work on their own cars because it's a waste of their time-
it's unproductive time. Most people use a MS client because it does a lot of the trivial and mundane for you.If you don't beleive that, then don't use a computer, go back to an adding machine or an abacus. If you want to buid a ship inside a bottle, that is a worthy endeavor; but, advancement comes through the door of productivity.
Sun has a chance to build a viable open source client that could compete with
the MS leviathan.
Sun could make money by becoming a standard. Open source need standards to sell sucessfully. Red Hat is a standard. Sure you can compile almost any
open source program if you have the correct kernel, the right libraies, and any,
other dependent programs loaded on the machine( and,their correct libraies).
You can learn every skill to fix your own car too; but people don't; people buy
Red Hat; and, Red Hat makes money.
A standardized Java enabled client PC that could rival Windows would be a valuble asset.
Dell and HP are installing JRE's on PC shipments. Many Cell phones are J2ME enabled. Verizon is using J2ME and JXTA. Java is becoming more widespread.
SUN truly has an opportunity, if it can stop fussing and start functioning.
SUN has the vision to give us a seemless productive Java stack from server to cell phone. Forget the easy money from the dying server market,SUN ;go back to your roots and innovate the future.
Well said. I think SUN needs to be serious here rather than fussing about what is happening is the market.
Come on guys, give SUN a break! Most of the posts here are bordering on the petty and childish. Yes we know SUN is trouble and its stock sucks but thats not the point.
Eclipse and SUN would do well to co-operate. Having an indepenent set of tools that would operate equally well on both Eclipse and Netbeans would be fantastic for all Java developers - yes the Eclipse ones too.
Anyone who uses Eclipse seriously (I love it) will see how good (and bad) it is. An open set of tools would address its shortcomings, the fact that a tool was developed by the Netbeans project would not concern anybody because why should it?
IBM and SUN are companies, they do whats best for themselves. Don't trust either one too much, and for the Eclipse fans remember OS2/Warp? Where is that now? SUN has produced some really good technologies and some bad ones. However, they have been Java's leading light and embraced other forces in the Java industry. Forces that were hard to swallow first like the Apache group. However they overcame their fears of open source, then they opened up Java with the JSR process. They listen to the Java community and move with it (some would say catch up). They are not trying to force a vision down anyones throat - look at how many of their JSRs have been rejected.
The open source community needs to work together, a dogfight between Eclipse and Netbeans is in no ones interest except M$ and Borland. Valuable time and money would go into fighting each other instead of making the IDE really hot (like IDEA).
What we need is this to be like a big ice cream counter, choose your flavour chocolate or vanilla (Eclipse or Netbeans) and choose the sauces (tools) you want, strawberry or maple.
With good interoperable choice we get stronger - with flag waving we get weaker. SUN has a good point here, stop trying to hard to miss it.