Discussions

News: OSI asks for Sun to open Java

  1. OSI asks for Sun to open Java (47 messages)

    Eric Raymond of the Open Source Initiative, said in an open letter Thursday that Sun needs to choose between controlling Java and seeing it spread as widely as possible.

    "Sun's terms are so restrictive that Linux distributions cannot even include Java binaries for use as a browser plugin, let alone as a stand-alone development tool." Raymond's remarks were in response to a Wednesday speech in which McNealy said, "The open-source model is our friend."

    Read the Open letter to Sun: Let Java Go

    Read the commentary in Open-source advocate: Release Java code

    Threaded Messages (47)

  2. Amen - I couldn't agree more[ Go to top ]

    I would like to offer my encouragement and support to Sun and Mr. McNealy should they decide to act upon Mr. Raymond's suggestions.
  3. Funny... my linux distro comes with Java[ Go to top ]

    I don't know what Eric is smoking, but my distro (SuSE) has Sun's JRE bundled. That is certainly enough for running applets in web browsers. Together with eclipse, it is even possible to develop without downloading anything of the web.

    BTW: It's funny how Windows doesn't have Sun's Java bundled. Doesn't seem to be a problem for most people to find java.sun.com ;-)
  4. Funny... my linux distro comes with Java[ Go to top ]

    I believe having the JRE alone will not suffice, you will need a plugin-element as well.

    And as for the JRE, Red Hat ships with an open source JVM (Kaffe or gcc-java, can't remember) instead of Sun's but from Suse's website, it seems that Sun's JDK is being shipped in their distro as well. And it seems Apache Ant and Eclipse is in the standard package too! You can view the package list here:

    http://www.suse.com/us/private/products/suse_linux/i386/packages_professional/index_all.html

    Eric Raymond says "Sun's terms are so restrictive that Linux distributions cannot even include Java binaries for use as a browser plugin, let alone as a standalone development tool."

    So what Suse is doing certainly contradicts what he's saying (at least he standalone development tool bit), though we don't exactly know how Suse got around to doing it and why Red Hat haven't seemed to have gotten around to that. Perhaps Suse and Sun cut a deal? Anybody knows?
  5. SuSE with Sun's Java[ Go to top ]

    I think, SuSE bought the license of Sun's JDK and RedHat does not want to. If you want to include JDK in a CD or so, you need to buy the JDK license from Sun. So generally you have 3 choices to distribute your Java applications:
    - Buy a JDK license from Sun (like SuSE) to distribute JDK/JVM/JRE.
    - Let your customer download the JDK/JVM/JRE from Sun's website by her/himself.
    - Buy an installation application like InstallShield, which has a license to distribute JDK/JRE/JVM.

    You are not allowed to distribute JDK/JRE/JVM without license in your own CD...

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
  6. SuSE with Sun's Java[ Go to top ]

    Here are the official press releases:

    http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2003-08/sunflash.20030801.1.html
    http://www.suse.com/us/company/press/press_releases/archive03/sun.html
  7. SuSE with Sun's Java[ Go to top ]

    If you want to include JDK in a CD or so, you need to buy the JDK license from Sun. So generally you have 3 choices to distribute your Java applications:

    > - Buy a JDK license from Sun (like SuSE) to distribute JDK/JVM/JRE.
    > - Let your customer download the JDK/JVM/JRE from Sun's website by her/himself.
    > - Buy an installation application like InstallShield, which has a license to distribute JDK/JRE/JVM.
    >
    > You are not allowed to distribute JDK/JRE/JVM without license in your own CD...

    I think that's wrong for the JRE if you use it for your own application.

    The licensee-agreement (http://www.java.com:80/en/download/license.jsp) says:

    ...
    License to Distribute Software. Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, including, but not limited to the Java Technology Restrictions of these Supplemental Terms, Sun grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited license without fees to reproduce and distribute the Software, provided that (i) you distribute the Software complete and unmodified (unless otherwise specified in the applicable README file) and only bundled as part of, and for the sole purpose of running, your Programs, (ii) the Programs add significant and primary functionality to the Software, (iii) you do not distribute additional software intended to replace any component(s) of the Software (unless otherwise specified in the applicable README file), (iv) you do not remove or alter any proprietary legends or notices contained in the Software, (v) you only distribute the Software subject to a license agreement that protects Sun's interests consistent with the terms contained in this Agreement, and (vi) you agree to defend and indemnify Sun and its licensors from and against any damages, costs, liabilities, settlement amounts and/or expenses (including attorneys' fees) incurred in connection with any claim, lawsuit or action by any third party that arises or results from the use or distribution of any and all Programs and/or Software.
    ...

    Cheers,
    Christian
  8. Off Topic[ Go to top ]

    http://www.bersk.com/programs/source.html
     
    Have fun :)
  9. I totally agree. To help Sun see the light lets turn up the pressure. I invite you to join the Viva! Call To Action today. See http://viva.sourceforge.net/action.html for details.

    If I may quote:

    Join the "Free Java Now" campaign and help to put pressure on Sun to open-source the Java core. Don't sit and wait until you're locked in and Sun starts charging for Java and ends the "first shot is free" era. Prepare yourself for a brighter tomorrow today and take action now and help secure the future of Java as an open royality-free standard.

    * Boycott Swing
    * Boycott NetBeans
    * Boycott the Java Cartel Process (JCP)
    * Boycott Java Server Follies (JSF)
    * Boycott Java.Net
    * Embrace Scripting Languages for Java
    * Embrace next-gen XML Markup Languages for rich UIs

      - Gerald
  10. Silly atitude[ Go to top ]

    I agree that Sun have to make Java more open, but absolutly disagree with Gerald's and viva.sourceforge.net attidute.

    If you have somthing against NetBeans, Swing don't use it. It's so simple. You don't have to do anything about it. And if you like SWT, Eclipse or anything else, just use it.

    You are taking destructive aproach instead of constructive. At the end you will get nowhere. What you are going to do then, will blame Microsoft? It's silly.

    I'm not very sure do I really want to see Java without Sun. How will I convince my customer to spend money for solutions that are build on top of Java without Sun (or some other well known company) standing behind Java.

    Remis
  11. Silly atitude[ Go to top ]

    <!--I'm not very sure do I really want to see Java without Sun. How will I convince my customer to spend money for solutions that are build on top of Java without Sun (or some other well known company) standing behind Java. -->

    I agree 100%. That mistake would be fatal and Java will be a history if Sun make the mistake of opening it up for open source community like some people are suggesting here. I think Java and JCP have a perfect harmony right now. It should be like that, not too open so we can never decide/agree on any thing, not too close so we don't have any say. I give SUN full credit for what they have been doing so far for the community.
  12. Openness vs Control[ Go to top ]

    When MS was in the Java scene, I think there was a potential conflict between opennes and control. However, since MS is now doing its own thing (C#) this is a mute issue.

    I Linux open? Yes, completely.

    Does Linus have /complete/ control over what goes into Linux? Yes, complete control. He will not let anything into the kernel that does not meet his exactly technical standards.

    Likewise, Java can be made 100% open and at the same time, Sun could maintain exactly the same level of control that it now exercises. Its just a matter of whether Sun trusts its (potential) Java contributors, and whether those contributors trust Sun.

    With MS in the Java scene, there was always the danger of an MS fork of Java. However, the "normal" dynamics of open source are that forks are strenuously avoided except when a project environment becomes seriously dysfunctional.

    Java can be open and Sun can regain control. This is a false dicotomy. Sun currently just does not trust its community enough to open up Java. And that is too bad.
  13. Openness vs Control[ Go to top ]

    If we take Linus and Linux as an example, the yes there is plenty of scope for Sun doing this and succesfully achieving it. However, to me Sun is not the issue, it's other Vendors.

    As I said in my previous post, Linux was born into OSS and Software libre, but Java wasn't - and many companies have a vested interest in the platform besides Sun, especially those associated with the JCP.

    I do believe Sun should Open Source Java or at the _very_ least send the JLS to a standards body (I'm not getting into which standards body), and it's reputation would be better for it (a discussion as to whether it has earned this current reputation from Gerald Bauer et al, I am also staying clear of). But there will be a great deal of pitfalls,

    Regardless of reputation, a much clearer issue is that of protection of Sun's investment in Java 'pre-OSS' - if Java is opened up, this issue will remain, and whoever has guardianship over Java must be vigilant.

    Also IBM may get a better degree of control on Java (the language and core) but what about everything else, opening up the 'Java Standards Body' to the community, could spell large bottlenecks for JSR's and commercial companies are not going to like that.

    I don't think the whole story can be told with a glib comment like ' ...Sun doesn't trust it's community' - this is business, and Sun doesn't trust it's commercial competitors. With efforts like OpenOffice.org, Sun has shown it can provide open source software to the community, and will back this up with real development time.

    The trick is to maintain flexibility in the process and not get mired in bureaucracy, provide openness to the platform and engage the OSS and FSF community in proper dialogue, but still maintain a degree of oversight and protect it's investments.

    As I said, in principle, I agree Java should be open sourced (maybe that point did not come across clearly enough in my previous post) I just think that it's going to be tricky for Java to be opened up now after almost 9 years as a commercial offering (whether it has been free [as in beer] or not), and the logistics in doing it will be very difficult indeed (orders of magnitude greater than the Eclipse announcement), but if it happens it'll be good for everyone (I hope). Most OSS languages have been free [both variants] from their very beginnings, or the implementation of the language has (with the language being a standard) so Java will face a number of different challaenges than say Perl, Python, Ruby, et al.


    Calum

    Calum
  14. will there be a JavaOne this year?[ Go to top ]

    Sooner or later the Java community will realize that there is Sun that is the biggest blocking-stock for Java acceptance. For instance the first 4-5 phones with MS OS appeared last year and sold 230 000. That is not so much compared to the ca 11 million phones sold with Symphian but in 2004 at least 20 new MS models is announced. The war has started. And it will not help Java that Sun has "hijacked" J2ME and tries to extract up 50 million dollar yearly in license fees from Nokia alone. Trick question: "Do you think that this tax will help to get a large number of these MS OS phones to have J2ME preinstalled?"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  15. will there be a JavaOne this year?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    Although not a fan of your MS posts, you do raise a valid question here:

    Will Sun out-price itself in the J2ME space (think about those Titanic engineers - this ship cannot be sunk) or will they truly compete with M$ when it comes to price, performance, and ease of development (in the J2ME space). Alot of people may not agree, but the phone (or any type of hand-held) IS the next computing platform that we should be creating apps for. I know Sun badly needs to make money, I just hope they don't price themselves out of a market that they ALREADY STRONGLY OWN.

    Regards,
    Tom
  16. the life is not correctly constructed[ Go to top ]

    Tom: I just hope they don't price themselves out of a market that they ALREADY STRONGLY OWN

    Well I can appreciate your feelings. The world is really quite wrong. At some point in your life, you should come to a goal-line; a man would appear and say: "Congratulations you made it, you won! Now you can keep this job, this wife, this money and so on". Unfortunately the world in not made that way :-).

    And beside of that this market, business software development for mobile phones and devices, has hardly started yet.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  17. Couldn't agree more[ Go to top ]

    Although I lost a big fortunate for owing Sun's stocks, I think people should be grateful that Sun gave birth and raised such a wonderful thing as Java.
  18. will there be a JavaOne this year?[ Go to top ]

    For instance the first 4-5 phones with MS OS appeared last year and sold 230 000.

    That's 0,2 million. J2ME devices sold 150 million.

    >That is not so much compared to the ca 11 million phones sold with Symphian
    That's not much compared to anything.

    >but in 2004 at least 20 new MS models is announced. The war has started.
    The war started already long ago. Each year MS has touted that this time it's going to take a good market share. 20 models? Globally? That really sucks.

    >And it will not help Java that Sun has "hijacked" J2ME and tries to extract up 50 million dollar yearly in license fees from Nokia alone.
    Sun hasn't hijacked J2ME, they created it. I don't know about the figures in Nokia's licencing plan but they don't seem to mind. Visit their web pages, they talk about java very favorably.

    >Trick question: "Do you think that this tax will help to get a large number of these MS OS phones to have J2ME preinstalled?"
    Trick question: do you think that MS's history of successful licencing plans and fair play in the market (Sendo anyone?) will help to get a large number of these MS OS phones manufactured? Is MS giving their mobile platform out for free or why is it that you call the J2ME licencing plan a tax?
  19. what I love most[ Go to top ]

    The total market was 510 million phones 2003.
    As Java 1.5 shows, competition is good for everybody.

    What I love most with being a Microsoft supporter is attitude of the opposition in the start of the "war" :).

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  20. a block around the foot[ Go to top ]

    Nipsu: why is it that you call the J2ME licencing plan a tax

    The fight is between Symbian and MS OS, not between Java (J2ME) and MS.

    The MS equivalent to J2ME- the .NET compact framework, is free. Nokia is not helped by having to pay for J2ME.

    Rather you can call it,
    "a block around the foot"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  21. IBM's J9 is the way...[ Go to top ]

    When Palm wanted to include Java with their Tungsten handhelds, they didn't go to Sun. They went to IBM.

    If Sun prices them out of the J2ME market, IBM is there to pick up the slack.
  22. Dear Sun Microsystems...[ Go to top ]

    If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it's yours forever.

    Let Java go. I have invested my career in learning this technology. If it becomes as ubiquitous as its potential would dicate, and if if can only do so once you entrust it to the community, then let it go to preserve the hard work I have put in becoming a user of Java.

    Best Wishes.

    John C. Dale
    CEO, President
    Down in the Desert, Inc.
  23. Progress...[ Go to top ]

    Of course it is hard work to become and remain a Java expert. But I don't think being a Java expert is enough for the time of a whole working life. I would feel very sad if in 30 years we would still be programming Java the way we do now. As a computer scientist I don't care much which programming paradigm I use, it just should not give me too much headaches.
  24. Sun gives Java professionalism[ Go to top ]

    Sun lends Java a lot of professionalism by backing it up with *dollars* in *expense* - documentation, website, downloads, upgrades, Reference Implementations, and above all, smart Java people on their payroll (which can be very expensive)
  25. OSI asks for Sun to open Java[ Go to top ]

    I blogged about this awhile ago, and I believe what I said then still stands now - there may be problems with Sun shepherding Java, but under any model it would be invariably far worse. As it is, when you consider everything _Java has been wildly successful under Sun's tutelage_. There may be some short term benefits that could be reaped from a completely un-Sun Java, but those sorts of benefits would be buried under the spectre of fragmentation. I think anyone with a brain knows what would happen to Java with Sun out of the picture - Microsoft and others would hammer out several incompatible versions and shatter the market place as a result.

    For today at least, I believe the catch phrase is that Java is open enough. It's not ideal, but the alternatives are even worse.

        -Mike
  26. OSI asks for Sun to open Java[ Go to top ]

    Mike,

    Sun needs to build a consortium around Java, the JCP is already half the way there. The next thing to do is to step down and release control as IBM has done with Eclipse.

    Have you read the post by Lofi Dewanto "Foundation and Consortium"
    http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.jsp?thread_id=23651#108935

    It is not a question of releasing control to hobbyist developers around the world.

    Lofi: In the long term, especially for big companies, it's just more economical to join such a foundation or consortium than to buy a product and its upgrade everytime.

    As for Microsoft, they have their .NET and are not interested in Java anymore. They would not be allowed into the consortium anyhow.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  27. OSI asks for Sun to open Java[ Go to top ]

    <!--Sun needs to build a consortium around Java, the JCP is already half the way there. The next thing to do is to step down and release control as IBM has done with Eclipse.-->

    I totally disagree with Rolf, because changes in languages are very tricky and political issues that cannot be easily resolved in a consortium, please don’t compare it with a mere IDE like eclipse. Just imagine even if we start a discussion on multiple inheritance vs. single inheritance, delegates vs. inner classes, generic and their implementation etc here on TSS, we have to kill some people:-) before we all reach to a common point. If you see and ask people in C/C++ committee they will let you know how difficult it is to let every one accept a design change/adding new features in the language. It takes lot of time and effort both from professionals and academia to reach a common conclusion. I am not saying that it is good or bad, but it is totally unacceptable in today fast changing environment of enterprise computing revolving around Java, unless you want to sabotage Java. Rolf I don't know from which camp you belong, but I hope you are a good guy:-)
  28. Apples and Oranges[ Go to top ]

    Sun needs to build a consortium around Java, the JCP is already half the way there. The next thing to do is to step down and release control as IBM has done with Eclipse.


    Java and Eclipse cannot be compared. Eclipse is just an IDE. netBeans is already free. Will IBM open source Websphere? Every software you try to download from alphaworks says "Your input from filling out this quick survey will contribute towards determining if a commercial license can be offered for this technology".
  29. Foundation and Consortium for Java[ Go to top ]

    <Rolf>
    Sun needs to build a consortium around Java, the JCP is already half the way there. The next thing to do is to step down and release control as IBM has done with Eclipse. It is not a question of releasing control to hobbyist developers around the world
    </Rolf>

    I agree with you, Rolf. It is the time that Sun should let its "child" to go, to search for its own way. Anyone saw the film "Finding Nemo"? You just cannot always forbid your child to do what it wants. You have to accept that someday your child is grown-up and will search for its own way. IMO, Java has already reached this stadium. As good "parents" Sun has to let Java go its own way on the right timing (not too early but also not too late). This is just the same as the mankind story, no difference.

    <Rashid>
    I totally disagree with Rolf, because changes in languages are very tricky and political issues that cannot be easily resolved in a consortium, please don’t compare it with a mere IDE like eclipse. Just imagine even if we start a discussion on multiple inheritance vs. single inheritance, delegates vs. inner classes, generic and their implementation etc here on TSS, we have to kill some people:-) before we all reach to a common point.
    </Rashid>

    No, not at all. Every single problems (not only language but also platform like Eclipse) are always *political issues*. I don't see any different on this topic. Like the Eclipse Foundation, only the board members can steer the way, not everyone, to avoid chaos. Different point of views are always there, but that's how democracy works. You can ask for the board to vote and everyone has to accept the result, just as the normal way we learn about democracy. So, I don't see any problems here...

    Can you imagine what does this mean for Java if you have such a Foundation or Consortium?
    There will be more financial support + developer support to develop Java. Take a look at Eclipse Foundation, how much do you have to pay and how many developers you have to put on the project to become a strategic member board? Here you are:
    - Strategic developer must contribute *eight developers* plus a fee not to exceed $250,000.
    - Strategic consumer requires a $500,000 contribution and no developers.
    (Check this article for more information about membership levels of Eclipse Foundation: http://www.sdtimes.com/news/096/story3.htm)

    Java Foundation can ask a lot more than this! I'm sure there will be a lot of companies join this foundation. One thing you should not forget: companies always want to make "the most out of their investment" with "less effort". So every companies which will join Java Foundation will have economic interest on Java, just like Eclipse Foundation. They will push Java to become economically succesful, no doubt on this.

    For us "normal" developers this means, that we'll get better JVM (less bugs), faster update, etc. Better quality of Java. Why do we need JRockit, Sun JVM, IBM JDK, Open Source GCJ, etc.? We only need *one best* JVM and JDK for each platform (Win, Lin, Sun, etc.). Can you imagine if we get one and the best JVM/JDK ever everywhere?

    <Rolf>
    As for Microsoft, they have their .NET and are not interested in Java anymore. They would not be allowed into the consortium anyhow.
    </Rolf>

    Microsoft should also join, why not? At the end you have the board members who will decide the direction of Java. Microsoft alone cannot do much on this. Anyway, I'm not sure whether Microsoft would join such a foundation :-) Until now I don't see that Microsoft will join Eclipse Foundation, although I admit, this would be really interesting.

    <Jay>
    Java and Eclipse cannot be compared. Eclipse is just an IDE. netBeans is already free. Will IBM open source Websphere? Every software you try to download from alphaworks says "Your input from filling out this quick survey will contribute towards determining if a commercial license can be offered for this technology".
    </Jay>

    The question is not about free or not. The question is about the same "power" between the consortium/foundation board members.

    Like Rolf said, the JCP is already half the way there. Only the last part "releasing" the control has not been there yet. If we see all the Open Source projects of Sun (OpenOffice, NetBeans, JXTA, etc.) there is no idea to open such a foundation or consortium where the members can also steer the direction *explicitly*. Internal, there are some cases where you have other developers than Sun's developers doing some important parts in those projects but again not explicitly. Maybe Sun should try the way of Eclipse Foundation?

    Anyway, I think Sun has a lot of intelligent people working there (not only technologically but also economically), so I cannot imagine that they never think about such an idea. Interesting to know, what are the reason(s), why they don't execute such an idea?

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
    http://www.openuss.org
  30. OSI asks for Sun to open Java[ Go to top ]

    As for Microsoft, they have their .NET and are not interested in Java >anymore. They would not be allowed into the consortium anyhow.

    >

    You can't get away with this Rolf :-) MS have their .NET indeed but they would be interested in trashing java so that they can sell their .NET better. It's all about money with MS, Rolf.

    By the way, welcome back :-)
  31. OSI asks for Sun to open Java[ Go to top ]

    I agree 100% with Mike's comments. M$ will break backwards compatibility, at some level, with every new generation of their technology. Whatever problems Sun's stewardship might cause, they have stringently guarded the backwards compatiblity of Java.

    I'm a languages freak. I would love to see a whole new language replace Java in the future, and I would love to see that language as an open standard, but I don't see any reason for Java to move to a completely open process until it comes time to totally break backwards compatibility... and I don't think now is the time for that. It's better for us to let Sun and M$ keep improving their technologies until we are ready for a major pradigm shift like AOP.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Ryan Rhodes
  32. OSI asks for Sun to open Java[ Go to top ]

    In Eric's letter, he said:

    "Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community"



    "You have millions of potential allies out here in the open-source community who would love to become Java developers and users if it didn't mean ceding control of their future to Sun."


    Eric's argument is that Java faces a grim future of lower adoption and will miss out on valuable community resources as long as it remains closed. While it may be true that more people will switch to Java if it becomes totally open source, perhaps the following will put things into a more balanced perspective:

    1. Open Source Java seems to be alive and well
    2. Java is already extremely open and accessible in spite of its proprietary nature

    A Sourceforge report on the breakdown of programming languages used in sourceforge projects are as follows (those with small shares omitted):

    Assembly (1207 projects)
    C (12757 projects)
    C# (1256 projects)
    C++ (12763 projects)
    Delphi/Kylix (1384 projects)
    Java (11197 projects)
    JavaScript (1612 projects)
    Perl (5318 projects)
    PHP (8437 projects)
    PL/SQL (923 projects)
    Python (2996 projects)
    Unix Shell (1378 projects)
    Visual Basic (1740 projects)

    Number of projects may not the best indication but it sure gives a rough guide. The number of Java projects on SourceForge is 3rd only to C and C++ (by a very small margin i must add!) and is surprisingly higher than PHP.

    There are so many successful Java Open Source projects familiar to the folks at TSS so I shan't even bother listing them. Open Source developers and users do not seem to be avoiding Java very much even though Java itself is not open source.

    The problem with proprietary software vis-a-vis adoption is often cost, and developer support, not whether it is open source or not. Sun has done a pretty decent job making their JDK available for free and actively growing the Java community so that developers can always find the support they need. Whenever somebody wants to learn, or to deploy Java, very often, he can get going without paying a single cent to Sun (free JDK, free IDE, free docs etc.). If we all have to pay Sun to build and deploy anything in Java, I'm sure that will kill Java adoption and a very strong case for making Java Open Source. But now that the barriers to entry are so low, is there really a compelling need?

    Because Java adoption among the open source community is already so strong and that Java is already so open and accessible, is it necessary to go all the way? (Considering that it may open up a whole new can of worms like Mike has pointed out.)

    Plus, it is already possible to write Open Source implementations of Java, and there are a few projects out there. The fact that they haven't been very successful, is often an indication that an open source alternative isn't particularly in very high demand! To most people, the question is "why use open source JVMs when the free ones i can download from Sun or IBM has a better chance of working better with apps?"
  33. OSI asks for Sun to open Java[ Go to top ]

    There is a greater issue here concerning fragmentation and OSS Java development projects.

    for arguments sake, we'll say that one day SUN OSS'es Java.
    sooner or later.....

    1) M$ latest version of .NET begins to pad out it's class library with various classes suspiciously like those in Java, but written in C#, and now J# is 'officially JDK 1.5 compatible' or whatever......who looks into that - someone will say 'oh the java consortium or some such....', so this Java Consortium owns java and deals with protection of IP? So what happens when _you_ don't like what this OSS Java Consortium is doing, and your pleading falls on deaf ears, because you and a thousand other people are shouting with horror at various changes made in JDK 1.6 (or 7 or 8....).......

    2) But wait now you are being listened to, as are the thousand others, but it's now taking 3yrs to get anything approved (XML Schemas anyone) to go into a JDK that's taking so long to spec that it's now the stuff of urban legend and that's before implementation and testing time, meanwhile M$ has managed to completely .NET it's database, Office and EMail tools to within an inh of their lives, and you can now .NETScript Outlook (just for the kiddies!). My point? The sheer number of people that would be involved in releasing an OSS next-version JDK would mean that getting agreement on anything would be a herculean task in itself. so.....
    Someone get annoyed, bitches and moans about the now quasi-official JDK, or that it doesn't quite fit 'their' definition of free - and sets about making YAJDK and fragmentation begins to happen

    3) Also, a number of these projects were originally designed to shore up deficiences in the JDK, that the developers of those projects could see, but in most cases ended up being far more than that original goal- this has been a _key_ success of Java. It is rather unlikely that Java would be where it is now without the efforts of the Open Source community but it would also not be where it is now were it not for Sun. Sun has removed the barrier for entry and the OSS community has in general, reacted favourably. If the JCP does something and you don't like it, Sun doesn't stop you from writing things in your way, but imagine what would happen if rather than having 10 different stand-alone data access libraries, you had 10 different JDK's implementing a different data access library for a standard API

    4) The CEO perception of OSS languages is, in many cases, not a forgiving one - M$ will use this to its competitive advantage. I wish that were not the case, I myself like Python and Ruby, but still that is the general situation.


    I do like OSS, and I think that the next generation of languages, is coming from OSS, but I think Java is just too great for so many hands to pull in so many different directions without there being huge issues. People may say 'Linux Kernel' - but the main differnce here? the kernel has been open since the very beginning, or as near as dammit. I would heartily put my support behind OSS java, _if_ the logistics of doing it did not impede the development of it (the JDK), don't say "oh 'n' thousand developers working night and day' because what happens when a core API get's scheduled for rewriting and you have a hundred different alternatives that could be used for it. Driving adoption forward is one thing, ensuring development and focus remains is another. I really, really would like this to happen, but I don't think it will, not because of Sun, rather lots of differing implementations vying for the JDK will just cause friction.

    Sure the JCP and Sun aren't perfect, but when a particular corner of the JDK or J2EE doesn't work, I am proud to say that OSS developers are there and they do a great job of putting alternatives out there and I thank them for it, things like hibernate, JBoss, etc. But the whole damn lot? is the OSS community actually ready for it, because if SUN allowed OSS java, it could just revoke all of it's code and just give you the basic public, protected, package classes, methods and interfaces and give you nothing else, and you would have to start from absolute scratch.....look at Mono ( I like mono) but how likely is it that Mono will reach full .NET 1.0 compliance before MS .NET 1.2 and then how much catch up before, Whidbey, Orcas, Longhorn......

    I'm not saying that I wouldn't like a OSS Java that would be the official version, but there are a multitude of issues....

    and I haven't even mentioned J2EE vendors or other parties currently on the JCP


    Calum
  34. If so many people, including heavyweights like Mike- support Suns ownership, OS Java is certainly not going to happen. I just wonder, what makes you think that Sun can keep up? Remember JSF?

    Indigo for XP/Server2K3 - no wait for Longhorn or Orcas

    "Indigo- the ultimate in serverside programming frameworks, will ship independently from Longhorn probably precisely after Whidbey that is due in 2004. Most of the latest and greatest is already available by using the WSE toolkit (version 2 beta 1 available for the moment)".
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/productinfo/roadmap.aspx

    Neither do you have to wait for Orcas

    Third parties already provide XAML rendering engines for non-Longhorn operating systems- for instance "MOBIFORM XAML Browser and XAML View Control".

    XAML has all of the capabilities of XUL, SVG, FLASH and PDF combined in a single XML based markup language. It is amazing, check it out at www.mobiform.com.

    Hmm..One-click-deployment with rich-Clients, What will Gerald say with his
    Open XUL Alliance - Creating A Rich Internet For Everyone?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  35. ok then, it looks like the train has gone[ Go to top ]

    If so many people, including heavyweights like Mike- support Suns ownership, OS Java is certainly not going to happen. I just wonder, what makes you think that Sun can keep up? Remember JSF?


    It's not a matter of support, but it's really tough for people to see the need for it when the JDKs, IDEs etc are easily available for free.

    If you ask people why they use Open Source Software, I believe a huge chunk of them will tell you it's because it's free (as in free beer) rather than because it is free (as in open). That's the reality of the matter.

    If Sun can't keep up, there are plenty of people who are more than happy to take over. I don't think Sun will deliberately sabotage Java by letting it rot when they no longer have the resources to maintain and develop it.
  36. XAML has all of the capabilities of XUL, SVG, FLASH and PDF combined in a single

    > XML based markup language. It is amazing, check it out at www.mobiform.com.

    > Hmm..One-click-deployment with rich-Clients, What will Gerald say with his
    > Open XUL Alliance - Creating A Rich Internet For Everyone?

     Rolf, you can check out my commentary about Longhorn XAML, Xamlon, Mobiform XAML Browser and more by browsing the XUL News Wire online @ http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.xul.announce

      - Gerald

    PS: You can find an alternative XUL News Wire archive online @ http://www.mail-archive.com/xul-announce at lists dot sourceforge dot net For more info about the XUL News Wire check out the XUL Alliance site online @ http://xul.sourceforge.net
  37. But my dear Gerald, the other XUL toolkits are not comprehensive. There must be twice as much in Avalon and XAML than all the 10+ other tool kits together! Are you not angry that Microsoft once again has "embraced and extended"? (and even taken out a patent :-)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  38. But my dear Gerald, the other XUL toolkits are not comprehensive.


      That's true. But may I point out that Windows Longhorn 2009 isn't going to hit the street tomorrow.

    > There must be twice as much in Avalon and XAML than all the 10+ other tool kits
    > together! Are you not angry that Microsoft once again has "embraced and
    > extended"? (and even taken out a patent :-)

      Rolf, since the Rich Internet For Everyone vs. XAML thread is off-topic I invite you discuss your questions on the xul-talk mailinglist hosted at the XUL Alliance site at sourceforge. You can subscribe/unsubscribe to xul-talk at any time online @ http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk

      - Gerald
  39. Off topic?[ Go to top ]

    Thank you but I have already read the list. There is no use arguing if we are of the same opinion!
    Gerald: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=3866689&forum_id=32541

    You can use XAML (with Mobiform) and most of Indigo (WSE 2.0) today. I was just reminding that Sun have do something or be overwhelmed.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  40. Sun is out[ Go to top ]

    Sun will not be exists as a viable corporation, it has finnaciail problems, it's proppriatory HW is slow and expensive, and here is the market share Sun has in Java:
    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2003/04/10/java_servlet_engines.html

    So the Java will have 0% impact w/o Sun, and then it will be Open Standards(Linux and Java) vs Propriatory (VB + IIS)

    Let the best win.
    I do not think MS has more programmers than Open Source, plus we can't see th quality of therei code. We know most fortune 500 companies ban Windows for Internet server becuase it just not secure.

    .V
  41. OSI asks for Sun to open Java[ Go to top ]

    Something to think about.

    Imagine that on the next Sun-shareholders meeting they decide that Steve Jobs will be there new CEO. We all know how open minded Apple does business.

    The first thing he'll do is asking a fee for each JDK and an even greater fee for J2EE and the source code is no longer available. They can do that because Sun has a 100% ownership on Java.

    What can we do? ...Nothing actually, complain, protest and ... pay of course.
    There is no alternative to paying. A lot of projects are completed and there is no way back without a huge cost.

    So all it takes to create a new Microsoft is 1 (yes only one) small decision and a few days to organize it.

    I think this is the best reason to pressure Sun to give up Java.
  42. Hello,

      To get a better understanding if anybody cares about open source Java and if it's just a pipe dream I've kicked off three online polls in the Java Republic news blog.

      I invite you to case your vote.

      Here's the poll line-up:

    Sun's CEO said that open source is Sun's friend. Do you think it's just empty rhetoric or do you think that Sun will set Java free, that is, open source it, so you can freely use, change and distribute Java without paying any licensing fees to Sun.
     
    Q: Will Sun Ever Set Java Free?

    o Yes, in 1 year.
    o Yes, in 2 years.
    o Yes, in 3 years.
    o Yes, in 4 years.
    o Yes, in 5 years.
    o When hell freezes over. Never.
    o Who cares. Don't know.
    o Other (Please Comment)


    Q: How much longer will Sun's the first-shot-is-free Java era last?

    o It's over in 1 year.
    o It's over in 2 years.
    o It's over in 3 years.
    o It's over in 4 years.
    o It's over in 5 years.
    o Who cares. Don't know.
    o Other (Please Comment)


    Let's assume Sun ends the first-shot-is-free era. How much are you prepared to pay for a Sun Java IP license before switching to a Java-free Linux distro.

    Q: How much are you prepared to pay for a Sun Java IP license?

    o US$ 50
    o US$ 100
    o US$ 200
    o US$ 500
    o US$ 1.000
    o US$ 10.000
    o Other (Please Comment)

    You can find the pollstation online @ http://viva.sourceforge.net/republic/2004/02/poll_will_sun_ever_set_java_free_is_open_source_java_a_pipe_dream.html

    - Gerald
  43. Questions[ Go to top ]

    I have two questions:
      * What are the advantages of having Java Open Sourced? (besides not being "owned" by Sun)

      * Have Perl and Python evolved more than Java in the last 4 years? Is that because they're Open Source? (note: I think that Perl and Python have evolved at least as much as Java)
  44. Questions[ Go to top ]

    * Have Perl and Python evolved more than Java in the last 4 years? Is that because they're Open Source? (note: I think that Perl and Python have evolved at least as much as Java)


    I don't think it's a fair comparison because the commercial vested interest for Java is a lot more than Perl and Python. This makes any kind of changes very hard to implement.
  45. Re: Questions[ Go to top ]

    I don't think it's a fair comparison because the commercial vested interest for

    >Java is a lot more than Perl and Python. This makes any kind of changes very hard
    >to implement.

    That's the main point: If Perl and Python evolved more than Java because the commercial interest in Java make it difficult to change the language, then ER has a point. If they're not or if Java has evolved more, then we should stop asking for an OS'ed Java.

    BTW, AFAIK, the python language evolution is managed much in the same way that Java (JSR for Java vs PEPs for Python, JCP for Java vs PSF for Python).

    What the Java model is lacking is the ability to submit "patches" for "bugs" in the language (that is, SUN) or "patches", implementations and ideas to the expert group (expert groups discussion should be open to the public). That way it whould be more "Open Source" like, and more community friendly.
  46. Re: Questions[ Go to top ]

    What the Java model is lacking is the ability to submit "patches" for "bugs" in the language (that is, SUN) or "patches", implementations and ideas to the expert group (expert groups discussion should be open to the public). That way it whould be more "Open Source" like, and more community friendly.


    These are two different issues and the "Java Model" addresses both of these.

    "Patching" the language is a feature request, and the JCP exists for that purpose.

    "Patching" the implementation is done through the implementor's support organization and methodologies, whether it be Sun, IBM, Open Source, etc ...
  47. Re: Questions[ Go to top ]

    That's the main point: If Perl and Python evolved more than Java because the commercial interest in Java make it difficult to change the language, then ER has a point. If they're not or if Java has evolved more, then we should stop asking for an OS'ed Java.


    Hi Rafael,

    I think I wasn't being clear enough. Commercial interests in a programming platform can exist whether a not a language is Open Source, as long as you have many big companies (tool vendors, application developers, end-users) etc having invested a lot in using the language/platform to build products or systems. Java is one such example. When you have stakeholders like Oracle, IBM, Sun and every other Multi-National Corporation having invested so much into Java, it's harder to move and it's much harder to break backward compatibility without a huge uproar among your user base.
  48. What part of Java?[ Go to top ]

    "Java" is not a single thing.

    There's the JLS. There's the virtual machine spec. There's sun's jvms and jres. There's the core libraries (by which I mean java.lang, java.lang.reflect, java.utils, java.io, java.nio, java.nio.subpackages, uh... isn't this getting a bit big for a "core" list?).
    (and J2ME complicates the above picture further).

    Sun's extreme conservatism in backwards compatibility of the JLS is fantastic. Thou shalt not wash away the foundations.

    Sun's stewardship has been (IMAO) excellent in the things that academic comp sci researchers are best at - eg, the core language. It has been worst at grungy, dull, real-world details that are a long way from the ivory tower (the GUI framework, EJBs, O/R mapping (ha!), etc).

    But Sun (and the JCP) are very bad at separating core libraries from periphery. Dependencies between the java.* packages do not appear to be well-managed, nor does there seem to be pressure on JSRs to keep dependencies down when building new things.

    The problem with this comes out if you consider Swing. The AWT was a disaster. Swing was crippled by attempts to connect it to the doomed AWT instead of doing something completely different. So Swing is not good. But because Sun's building a further house of cards on Swing they're politically committed to Swing. (The JSR for IDE extensions is a case in point - last I look it seemed to depend on Swing, which was why Eclipse couldn't match the JSR, which relates to why Sun and Eclipse will never get on well) (Feel free to update me on details here if I've got that wrong).

    So they should stop messing with the periphery. Open source as many libraries as is practical. And stop arrogantly ignoring what's out there: look at java.logging and log4j - where they took a really good logging package that was becoming a de facto standard and put out a competing standard that is no better.


    Sean
    PS: Worst case scenario - M$ buys Sun, and owns Java. M$ has the money for a hostile takeover if they wanted to. Think about it and have a nice day...