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News: Oracle Releases OC4J 10g Developer Preview 2

  1. Oracle Releases OC4J 10g Developer Preview 2 (32 messages)

    Oracle has released a new preview of their application server, OC4J 10g (10.0.3) Developer Preview 2. This version of the server has passed the J2EE 1.4 compatibility test suite and is officially J2EE 1.4 compatible. It replaces the earlier OC4J 10g Developer Preview released at the end of 2003.

    Read: OC4J 10g (10.0.3) Developer Preview 2 Now Available

    Threaded Messages (32)

  2. Is this the first app server to pass the J2EE 1.4 compatibility test suite?

    Where's the other server vendors at?
  3. J2EE 1.4 compatibility[ Go to top ]

    Is this the first app server to pass the J2EE 1.4 compatibility test suite?

    >
    > Where's the other server vendors at?

    Not the first one- there are a few vendors who have offerings.

    http://java.sun.com/j2ee/compatibility.html
  4. Are the Orion developers (http://www.orionserver.com) still contributing source code to OC4J, or did Oracle just take a cut of the code and develop it on their own?
  5. OC4J is not Orion any more. Oracle licensed Orion from Ironflare about 3 years back and has made significant enhancement/improvement and integrated OC4J with other stacks in Oracle Application Server.

    regards
    Debu Panda
    Oracle
  6. I am assuming some form of relationship remains. I checked out the packages and they are still using com.evermind.* Evermind is the old name of the company that is now known as Iron Flare.
  7. OC4J is robust now ???[ Go to top ]

    Oracle OC4J is not stable appserver. I have used OC4J 9i , my experience is that product is not prepared for mission critical application. I hope that oc4j 10g this preparing.
  8. OC4J is robust now ???[ Go to top ]

    Oracle OC4J is not stable appserver. I have used OC4J 9i , my experience is that >product is not prepared for mission critical application. I hope that oc4j 10g >this preparing.


    True, Oracle iAS 9.0.2 (containing a previous release of OC4J) was very problematic in installation, configuration and use. For that version the most important advice is/was, once you have it running don't touch it.

    Having said that and having worked with 10g (iAS9.0.4 with the new release of OC4J) on Linux for a few months now, I have to say the server is finally ready for prime time. It works fine, and at the moment we have had no real stability issues with it. We use it as our deployment environment for an application that’s using Java Servlets (+ws endpoints), JavaServer Pages, EJB SLSBs and MDBs.
  9. OC4J is robust now ???[ Go to top ]

    Oracle OC4J is not stable appserver. I have used OC4J 9i ,

    >my experience is that >product is not prepared for mission critical >application. I hope that oc4j 10g

    I have had very terrible experience with Oracle J2EE related products (version 9.x).

    JDeveloper is more or less OK, unless you use those Oracle frameworks like BC4J. Well... the idea is not bad, but it is very buggy and extremely unstable. BC4J failed very often just because minor changes in some code or for no reason at all. And at the and all developers gave up and whole project failed. My opinion is that quality of this framework is not even comparable with open source products like STRUTS. If something with STRUTS goes wrong it's easy to find problem, because of well documented config files and open/simple functionality. It's not like BC4J that shows only cryptic exception stack traces from some closed code components. Even those fat books from Oracle wont help, because they have a lot marketing style touting and not much useful information.

    And I remember one documented bug in JDeveloper which required to restart it and delete all it's cache from time to time. Because it started to show some strange problems because of problems with cache.

    The same applies for OC4J. We went to some company to gave some J2EE courses. They wanted to use OC4J, which failed to work on majority of student's workstations. As turned out it was dependent on very specific version J2SE, that is not documented anywhere. I dont know any OS J2EE container that has that kind of problems !.

    In summary - I dont think that all that overbloated, low quality stuff is really useful for developers. Often simple, open source solutions would work much better. Something like STRUTS/JBOSS/ECLIPSE/IDEA.

    Or WEBLOGIC/WL WORKSHOP if you want something that is more expensive.

    But better dont go Oracle way IMO.

    Maris Orbidans
  10. OC4J is robust now ???[ Go to top ]

    It looks like cache related problems in JDeveloper
    are still there :-(


    Dmitry Namiot
    http://www.servletsuite.com/
  11. OC4J is robust now ???[ Go to top ]

    It looks like cache related problems in JDeveloper

    > are still there :-(

    I am not surprised to hear this :-)

    Actually it is not funny because many companies have to use Oracle J2EE stuff just because they are historically Oracle oriented and they have all stack of licenses.

    But from developer's point of view it's dreadful. I would never suggest anyone who has a serious development project in mind to touch Oracle J2EE.

    There are many decent alternatives.

    However Oracle has a lot of resources and they could apply some effort to increase quality of J2EE related products. That would be good for all.
  12. OC4J is robust now ???[ Go to top ]

    We have been using OC4J successfully in production environment with almost no issues. There were some issues in 9.0.3 and these are fixed in 9.0.4. So my recommendation is to try 9.0.4. Assuming 10.0.3 a later version of 9.0.4 it looks good as they have J2EE 1.4 features.

    I assume TSS is using OC4J with few other app servers. They can share their experience too. I don't see TSS going down every day .. so OC4J should be ready for primetime
  13. OC4J is robust now ???[ Go to top ]

    I have had very terrible experience with Oracle J2EE related products >(version 9.x).


    Just wondering whether you've actually tried 9.0.4 (10g). As I said earlier, we too had problems with previous versions, but inspite of that managed to build a J2EE self-service application on top of OC4J which has been in production for about 1 year now (and still is).

    > And I remember one documented bug in JDeveloper which required to restart it >and delete all it's cache from time to time. Because it started to show some >strange problems because of problems with cache.

    Which version of JDeveloper was this?

    >The same applies for OC4J. We went to some company to gave some J2EE courses. >They wanted to use OC4J, which failed to work on majority of student's >workstations. As turned out it was dependent on very specific version J2SE, >that is not documented anywhere. I dont know any OS J2EE container that has >that kind of problems !.
    >

    We gave numerous of J2EE workshops using JDev/OC4J without any problems. Again, I would like to know specifics wrt the problem you had.
  14. OC4J is robust now ???[ Go to top ]

    Just wondering whether you've actually tried 9.0.4 (10g).


    No, I have not tried. It was not released at that time.

    I remember that those J2EE students were very annoyed when their OC4J didnt work. It threw ClassNotFound exception complaining about some standard class every time it received a remote request. That class was from javax.transaction package (actually from OC4J libraries) but only replacing whole J2SE helped to solve this problem. I was even more upset about that.

    I was one of instructors but what could I explain to them ?
    that oc4j is crap ?

    > Which version of JDeveloper was this?

    It was 9.0.3.

    > We gave numerous of J2EE workshops using JDev/OC4J without any problems. >Again, I would like to know specifics wrt the problem you had.

    I mentioned one oc4j related above. With BC4J we had so many problems that I even dont remember specific issues. We had to modify BC4J components to fit our requirements about Look&Feel etc. At the end all developers gave up and project failed!

    I dont want to be too critical about ORCL, but I have had only negative experience with it. I admit that BC4J would be very powerful and great framework... if it was not so developer-unfriendly.

    Anyway I dont have to worry about that very much, I am doing STRUTS related things for WL/WS now, and I am very happy about it. Struts never fails to fulfil expectations of developers IMHO :-)

    Maris
  15. BC4J...[ Go to top ]

    We are making a project with BC4J as the persistence layer. All we have with it since 1 year ago is problems. I mean, there are no doubt that BC4J is a great tool for a type of project, but definitely it doesn't work well with big projects (I speak about a project with 200 people involved and a lot of complex business code). It's very complex to manage and even to solve really extrange bugs. Even, when all the java community speak about light frameworks and modeling the business, BC4J make a migration of Oracle Forms to Java.

    Besides, I wan't to speak about the performance, the high coupling of the BC4J components and the complex to mantain which is really a problem to keep the systems in synthony with the business grown of the clients. To make an example of the problem complexity, between the subsystems of the project we had really painfull problems with the version of BC4J. Some codes worked with 9.0.3, others with 9.0.4 and others with 9.0.3 with a modification in the properties.

    Well, I hope that my comentaties don't hurt anybody, I only try to post our personal experience with the framework

    Regards

    German.-
  16. BC4J...[ Go to top ]

    We are making a project with BC4J as the persistence layer.

    >All we have with it since 1 year ago is problems.

    You can use ORACLE TOPLINK or maybe even HIBERNATE.

    We use good old entity beans. Works great! :-)
  17. BC4J...[ Go to top ]

    That was my recomendation, but i did't take this decision. Really that is what I want.

    Thanks!
  18. BC4J...[ Go to top ]

    We are making a project with BC4J as the persistence layer.

    >All we have with it since 1 year ago is problems.

    There is an easy solution - just dont use it !
  19. BC4J very good experience[ Go to top ]

    JDeveloper is more or less OK, unless you use those Oracle frameworks like

    >BC4J. Well... the idea is not bad, but it is very buggy and extremely
    >unstable. BC4J failed very often just because minor changes in
    We use BC4J for a Apache/Struts based web application with over 14.000 registered Users and we have very good experience. I recommend the use of the BC4J O/R-layer for database access.

    Michael Seyfried
    Europäische Reiseversicherung AG, Munich, Germany
  20. I'd be interested in having German above and anyone else who has had a negative experience with BC4J to contact me directly to drill into what issues you've hit. We run major web properties like http://ilearning.oracle.com using applications built using BC4J. That site handles 100,000 student page views per day running on a cluster of 8 linux application servers and a back-end solaris database. We also have over 2000 internal developers in our Oracle Applications division who leverage BC4J to build J2EE applications without having to waste time on handwriting and testing application plumbing code and hand-coded J2EE design patterns. We have many satisfied customers using it, so I'd like to find out off line what went wrong with your particular examples so we can make sure you're using the latest maintenance releases and/or get any necessary bugs encountered logged and fixed for the next release. BC4J application-building functionality is far more than simple persistence, so it's curious that that's the only aspect mentioned above. The BC4J Toy Store Demo illustrates our Struts integration and how really little code developers have to write to build a real-world web application using the framework.

    In our latest incarnation (JDeveloper10g) of our J2EE framework named Oracle Application Development Framework (ADF) we've refactored and enhanced the existing BC4J framework to support JSR-227 declarative data binding, pluggable business services and view layers (including JSF), and added a ton of new visual development tools for Struts, web development, modeling, etc. In fact, if you prefer the O/R mapping flexibility that Oracle TopLink offers, you can use that in the ADF framework as well. Or EJB's, or web services, or simple beans.

    I look forward to getting contacted by email by anyone who is not a satisfied BC4J customer and I'll personally look into the matter with the development team. From my experience with customers all over the world, you are definitely in the small minority but obviously need to have your issues looked into properly.

    Thanks.

    Steve dot Muench at oracle dot com
    Technical Evangelist, Developer, Author
    Dive into BC4J
    http://radio.weblogs.com/0118231/
  21. BC4J Experience[ Go to top ]

    I'am an experienced BC4J and OC4J user. I can't say if BC4J si good or not good. I think that every tool is an acceptable solution depending your problem. If you have to build an Administrative, not critical solution, you may evaluate BC4J. If you have to build a mission critical solution, BC4J is not the right tool. BC4J is a easy way to insert into the java world the lot of Oracle Forms developers. It was its principal objective. The way that BC4J born, and how it is evolving always was behind the 'migrate Forms and integrate java into Oracle Business Suite' idea. Not Oracle Forms nor BC4J are right for mission critical solutions.
    Thus German, if your application is a mission critical one, I would think that the architect involved around the choice of the persistence layer was extremely wrong. Oracle have TopLink, which cames free with Oracle IAS that is one of the best tools for this kind of solution.
  22. BC4J Experience[ Go to top ]

    I'm not of your opinion. We're working with BC4J for about 4 years now and there was no project that failed. The more you use the framework, the deeper your understandings get. In the beginning we had to decompile a lot of the bc4j classes to see what happened internally, but by now, you can use it out of the box. Sure, you need to get the philosophy of the framework... Even with Struts you easily can do the poorest things, if you ignore the contracts...
    We use BC4J for all kind of applications, where this makes sense. But stability or bugs are never decisive, always architecture dictates which framework to use. And BC4J does very well, especially for critical systems. That's my opinion.
  23. BC4J Experience[ Go to top ]

    Torsten, have you ever used BC4J in a time critical application that if you loose some control you cost of lose that is about u$s60.000, 24 hours a day 365 days?
    I am in this kind of development. BC4J together with IAS is not stable. We are using an HP Superdome in Rack and IAS has a lot of bugs. You can't do hot deploys and there is no possibility to keep transaction between the ears. BC4J is a not scalable framework very intrusive.
    I think BC4J may be OK for some kind of applications. I'm working with BC4J for about 4 years too and know it very well.
    I like BC4J and I love Oracle, but is not the right tool for this kind of applications. The problem is not of BC4J. The J2EE Architect that made that choice is the problem!
  24. BC4J Experience[ Go to top ]

    We use BC4J in a Jakarta Struts based web application deployed to Jakarta Tomcat/Apache Webserver. This application is in production since march 2003 with over 14.000 registered users. This is stable. I have over 8 years of deeply experience in developing and using frameworks and J2EE applications.
    I personally like the BC4J framework because it does really simplifying J2EE and EJB development. In my opinion thinking in entity beans to handle persistent data stored in databases is obsolete since BC4J!
    Wy do you think that BC4J together with IAS is not stable? What has BC4J to do with the deployment platform (IAS)?

    Michael Seyfried
    Europäische Reiseversicherung AG, Munich, Germany
  25. BC4J Experience[ Go to top ]

    Michael, I think you're a bit confused. Having 14.000 registered users doesn't mean that you have a mission critical application.
    I think BC4J together with IAS is not stable because you can't do hot deploys and have some memory leaks problems (some oracle experts are trying to solve this but they can't).
    I repeat, I can't say if BC4J is good or not good. Maybe for your tipe of application is good. But you can't be sure that BC4J is not the best.
  26. BC4J experience[ Go to top ]

    Having 14.000 registered users doesn't mean that you have a mission critical application.
    Not necessarily, but these 14.000 users are the people which book our travel insurance products and our main sale volume depends on these users...
    I think BC4J together with IAS is not stable because you can't do hot deploys and have some memory leaks problems
    We do not and likely will not use OC4J, because of license costs and good experience with open source deployment platforms. All our internet applications are running under Linux, JBoss, Tomcat, Apache with Oracl9i 9.0.2.x Server. So we run out of topic in this thread here...
    I repeat, I can't say if BC4J is good or not good. Maybe for your tipe of application is good. But you can't be sure that BC4J is not the best.
    You are right, it always depends. But I repeat: we have very good experience with the BC4J framework with very good support from the JDevelper development team on OTN and especially by Steven Muench who replies on bug reports sometimes within minutes.
    The BC4J framework is not only a black box framework. Not for me. Oracle delivers more parts of it in source code from release to release. The code that still is not there is the core ADF Business Components (currently know as BC4J) runtime. Steven Muench stated that he is pushing from inside Oracle to try and get that exposed, too.
    We will work together with Oracle to get this framework perfect for our business and I will push Oracle ADF, formerly BC4J as a part of our standard architecture in my company.

    Michael Seyfried
    Europäische Reiseversicherung AG, Munich, Germany
  27. Marcos,
    Your issue seems to be with IAS and deployment, not BC4J. Please contact me at steve dot muench at oracle dot com to give me a little background on your issue so I can chase up a solution for you (or at least become more educated on the problem). We can follow up with you off-list.
    Thanks.
  28. Oc4j not stable[ Go to top ]

    Well our experience was pretty much the same ,
    Oracle 9i is not suitable for production and again oracle had a very poor
    support for clustering using loadbalancer.jar, bundled with 9I.

    I hope all this changes with 10g...
  29. 9ias[ Go to top ]

    I agree with anyone who says that 9ias is unstable.
    My experience is that Oracles focus is on getting the app server out into the market along with all their other products that they recommend to sit on top it. They should put a bit more effort into making sure the products are stable before they bother to send their marketing people out to sell these products.
    I wonder how many IT managers, unfamiliar with J2EE technologies, have made decisions to purchase 9ias based purely upon the fact that they manufacture decent RDBMS's

    The developers are the ones that end up baring the brunt of the problem.
  30. Stable?[ Go to top ]

    I hope 10g will be more stable than 9i. The actual "stable" version is one of the worst appserver i've ever seen. Really, It has really important problems with hot deploy and stability in a production environment. I hope 10g will make things better.
  31. 10g = 9iAS + patchset ??[ Go to top ]

    If, at least, Oracle could solve the problems with session replication or memory leaks, it would be a very good advance for their application server. the 9iAS version is a sad version of Orion app. server.

    I hope they can achive a new agreement with Orion. They need it.

    Regards
  32. patchwork oracle stuff[ Go to top ]

    It is the way Oracle develops products: license source code of a good product and then add your mess to create a useless thing.They this successfully with JBuilder and then Orion. Why they could not develop a J2EE app server from scratch. lack of knowhow? I think they should do what they do good: dbms stuff
  33. patchwork oracle stuff[ Go to top ]

    Why they could not develop a J2EE app server from scratch. lack of knowhow?

    That's exactly the problem. Historically, ORCL has poor track records with development tools and product stacks outside its core RDBMS expertise.

    Now the hostile takeover of PSFT is going nowhere (except going down the tubes), ORCL should use the freed-up cash to buy BEAS, and use the left-over pocket change to migrate people from OC4J to WebLogic for free.