The Open Road: .NET to Java Migration

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News: The Open Road: .NET to Java Migration

  1. The Open Road: .NET to Java Migration (42 messages)

    IBM has published a three part series of roadmaps designed to assist developers of .NET, Windows client/server, and ASP applications make the jump to the Java platform. We have seen a lot of articles on J2EE / .NET interop, and even some Java -> .NET, so now it is our turn :)

    Read Getting on the open road: Migrate to the Java platform

    Are many developers jumping around a lot between the two technologies... or is the majoring of work in interop between the two systems?

    Threaded Messages (42)

  2. I make prediction that[ Go to top ]

    J2EE camp will produce tools that match functionality of .NET's JLCA (Java Language Conversion Assistant) and JBIMP (Java ByteCode Importer).
  3. More evil doing of M$[ Go to top ]

    Leaked Memo Says Microsoft Raised $86 million for SCO

    http://trends.newsforge.com/trends/04/03/04/0733231.shtml
  4. Question of needs[ Go to top ]

    Whether to use J2EE or .NET is really just a question of needs , if you are developing software for a client who heavily uses .NET then you would have to comply to your client and develop on .NET itself . If you are planning to market your product to a wider set of consumers , running on heterogeneous environments then your best shot would be J2EE.
  5. You are a wally[ Go to top ]

    If you want a wider set of consumers, then it is .NET (>90% of the market) ... not J2EE.
  6. You are a wally[ Go to top ]

    If you want a wider set of consumers, then it is .NET (>90% of the market) ... not J2EE.


    I am a very big .NET fan too, it is amost religion for me, but the makrt for .NET is almost 0% in my country, you are very lucky man, do you live in the Moon ?
  7. You are a wally[ Go to top ]

    I'm afraid that peter is lost in neverland ...
  8. Escuse me...[ Go to top ]

    Popularity will win (.NET), not technical superiority (Java).

    Such is life.
  9. Popularity on .Net[ Go to top ]

    Even there are 9x% using window OS. But ours topic is server side development. Shall we exclude counting for "User"?
  10. Popularity on .Net[ Go to top ]

    Even there are 9x% using window OS. But ours topic is server side development. Shall we exclude counting for "User"?


    MS guys don't know the difference between the two.. ;)
  11. Escuse me...[ Go to top ]

    Popularity will win (.NET), not technical superiority (Java).

    >
    > Such is life.

    In this case popularity and technical superiority will win (.NET)
  12. Escuse me...[ Go to top ]

    In this case popularity and technical superiority will win (.NET)


    I don't think so.
    In that case instead of well paid job (what I love) I will have to go and clean streets and live miserable life.

    f*** that
  13. Escuse me...[ Go to top ]

    In this case popularity and technical superiority will win (.NET)

    Exactly, just like Blackbird wiped out HTML and HTTP.

    Oh wait, what's that you say? The failure rate of proprietary products from Microsoft is close to 100% when industry standards are already in place?

    ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  14. Blackbird[ Go to top ]

    Ouch Cameron!

    Blackbird was the first project I worked on at Microsoft. I designed and implemented its distributed object database.

    But yeah, you're right. That project was aiming at AOL's closed system private network and then along came open standards on the Internet...the rest is history.

    Cheers,
    Roger V.
  15. In Ecuador[ Go to top ]

    I live in Ecuador, South America. Here, J2EE has made some inroads, especially in the government. As for the private sector, .NET projects are growing in a very notable way. At least down here, we don't take *any* software platform as religion. Which country do you live in?
  16. In Ecuador[ Go to top ]

    I live in Vilnius, Lithuania. We use JAVA in financial sector it is used in
    the government too. .NET is used for toys only, former MVC, VBA and FoxPro users
    use it to develop "Calendar" type applications, they can ignore security and performance, but I can not.
    I like .NET and will use it too if will need to write some desktop application for MS Windows, it is more easy to write application for single plaform with native features and to ignore quality.
    You can think I am an "idiot" too, but I am not going to use .NET and MS Windows for server side application. It needs security and performance form infrastructure not the mouse.
  17. Tools and carpenters[ Go to top ]

    I live in Vilnius, Lithuania. We use JAVA in financial sector it is used in

    > the government too. .NET is used for toys only, former MVC, VBA and FoxPro users
    > use it to develop "Calendar" type applications, they can ignore security and performance, but I can not.
    > I like .NET and will use it too if will need to write some desktop application for MS Windows, it is more easy to write application for single plaform with native features and to ignore quality.

    It’s recurring to talk about silly Visual Basic developers that know nothing about security, performance, distributed computing, etc. This may or may not be truth, but it is certainly misleading; I mean, we are discussing tools and its qualities (or lack thereof) not what certain carpenters do with them. It's perfectly possible for a naïve developer (even easy, I dare to say) to write insecure, not performant and unmaintainable Java apps. Would you call that a failure on the developer or the platform? Why should you judge in a different way a similar situation with .NET?

    > You can think I am an "idiot" too, but I am not going to use .NET and MS Windows for server side application. It needs security and performance form infrastructure not the mouse.

    Rest assured I never go ad hominem (even though some people do deserve it ;-). And forget that stereotype about Microsoft developers doing everything through wizards and mice, underestimating your opponent is a most dangerous thing to do.
  18. In Ecuador[ Go to top ]

    I live in Vilnius, Lithuania. We use JAVA in financial sector it is used in

    > the government too.

    hi

    I live in Riga, Latvia. I have J2EE both in financial and government projects ! I have never felt that I need something else. I mean in real IT projects. I have written toys even in QBasic !

    >Its not WORA it is WODE (Write Once, Debug Everywhere).

    I will disagree with that. At least server side applications are platform independent. Just install WEBLogic in your system of choice, deploy and run !
  19. In Ecuador[ Go to top ]

    I live in south america too and feel I have to point out that while Microsoft has a very (VERY) strong presence in South America (latam as they call it), SUN's presence is almost next to nil in some sout american countries. i.e SUN has own representation only in Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Venezuela. Countries like Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador are served through a re-seller: SONDA,a Chilean company.

    IBM's presence is mostly focused on the big companies tier like banks and financial companies.

    In the other hand, while you can find 1,000,000 VB developers in south-america, you need all the luck on the world to find 1000 (across all countries).

    the above speaks for itself
  20. You are a wally[ Go to top ]

    If you want a wider set of consumers, then it is .NET (>90% of the market) ... not J2EE.


    On the Desktop or the Server? Just because your consumer is on Windows doesn't mean the server has to be Windows......

    MS and a whole load of other companies made a lot of money out of the activex component market. Now they're trying to replicate this strategy on the server with ASP.net, whether it'll work or not is another matter entirely.

    It doesn't come down to number of consumers - it comes down to number of servers and providers
  21. Shouldn't this article appear on theserverside.net? theserverside.com certainly saw its share of java -> .net articles. I think its time for theserverside.net to get the same treatment.
  22. I think the .Net guys should know about .Net to Java articles.
  23. I think most of these things (Microsoft's JLCA, IBM's series) are just designed to piss off people from "the other side." As a result, I'm all for them :))

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  24. "As a result, I'm all for them :)) "

    The world needs iconoclasts............
  25. Comparing to ASP[ Go to top ]

    I noticed they only made references to ASP, not ASP.NET, saying that which ASP uses VBScript and JavaScript, JSP uses Java. So they aren't even talking about up to date technology.
  26. Comparing to ASP[ Go to top ]

    I think it is waste of time, how it can help for Mouse Oriented Progarmming ?
    MS users do not need any technologies, they do not need JAVA and they do not need .NET too, they need mouse friendly tools.
  27. Comparing to ASP[ Go to top ]

    It seems to be geared towards those who have not made the switch yet(VB6,etc to VS.Net). So if they are going to switch it might as well be something good. :)
  28. Are many developers jumping around a lot between the two technologies

    >or is the majoring of work in interop between the two systems?

    As per ASP.NET Coldtags suite: http://www.servletsuite.com/jsp.htm provides custom JSP tags similar to web controls in .NET

    Dmitry Namiot
  29. The Open Road: .NET to Java Migration[ Go to top ]

    Are many developers jumping around a lot between the two technologies... or >is the majoring of work in interop between the two systems?


    I think that most developers stay stable in J2EE side.
    Like I do ! :-)

    I have did some things in .net just for fun and out of curiosity. But I have never used it for any real work. And I could not use it even I wanted to do it, because I need WORA.
  30. You are an idiot[ Go to top ]

    You are an idiot. Its not WORA it is WODE (Write Once, Debug Everywhere).
  31. Not necessarily[ Go to top ]

    I think that most developers stay stable in J2EE side.


    We used to be a mostly Java shop, now we do more .NET than Java (which we still use when the project requires it). Other software houses down here are slowly following the same trend; funnily, most resistence come from people not liking Microsoft (which is a strange technological reason to me).

    > ... And I could not use it [.NET] even I wanted to do it, because I need WORA.

    Perfectly good reason, it so happens that many projects don't need WORA.
  32. from .NET to Java/J2EE[ Go to top ]

    I've developed software for 15 years professionally. Five and half years of that was working at Microsoft. Also worked on a .NET persistence project while there.

    Today - I've relegated .NET to doing just client-side development for my projects.

    We're a heterogeneous computing environment. We need IT technologies that run multi-platform. We need to be able to easily deploy server-side software we develop to both Windows and Unix (and eventually probably Linux).

    We do distributed applications yet for most part these are internal systems. Messaging middle-ware works far better than Microsoft's one-trick pony of web services SOAP RPC or .NET Remoting RPC. Their own MSMQ is a joke solution.

    So our IT is moving in direction of server-side development based on Java J2EE and we've purchased a JMS product that has excellent C# .NET client support.

    What I like about J2EE is that it is architecturally more advanced than .NET and ASP.NET. It addresses capabilities such as JMS connectivity. Again, ASP.NET is basically a one trick pony of web services. They have no architecture thought given to message processing. A crappy C# wrapper over MSMQ which has a really crappy heterogeneous story, sucks to program to, and there's no server architecture thinking in ASP.NET to accommodate it.

    (Like who the heck conceived ASP.NET? What a miserable excuse for an app server. ASP.NET is kind of like the Visual Basic of application servers. Is quick and pretty easy to do a few things at modest scale but is something you stay away from like the plague when you have heavy lifting and serious enterprise systems to devise that involve strategic long term consideration. It's a system that demonstrates a complete lack of thinking about a number of issues that have gone into J2EE the spec and the various J2EE implementations.)

    Also, we've enjoyed a luxury of vendor choices for various Java products that just doesn't exist in the Microsoft space. We've looked at three major JMS vendor products and several J2EE app servers.

    Beyond that there is an active Java open source development community that dwarfs what exist for .NET. And I can't begin to stress how crucial the open source tools are!

    It is obvious that Java owns more mind share amongst open source development than .NET (and that's despite the open source fanatics constantly bitching at Sun for not making Java open source). There are great tools that can be used such as XDoclet, JAXB, JBoss, Hibernate, Tomcat, Ant, etc., etc.

    There are lots of third party products. (Need high quality JMX applications to manage and configure JBoss? You can readily get them.)

    There's some of this kind of stuff in the .NET space but there's just a great deal more in the Java universe. For instance, there is the Sun JDO reference implementation, many other JDO implementations, and then there's open source Hibernate (and I haven't even mentioned J2EE CMP solutions here). Yet the notion of tool-based and/or framework managed persistence in the .NET world is still pretty much regarded as "crazy talk". There are some solutions there but they're pretty few and pretty anemic relative to the Java universe.

    Wild horses couldn't drag me back into the .NET ghetto away from Java and J2EE for server-side development.

    One thing I will say about Java community, though, is that it is chalk full of whiners that are constantly nagging about this or that with what seems like little appreciation for the embarrassing riches they enjoy as Java developers. And I almost feel like belly laughing when I see a posting about how .NET is going to trounce Java and J2EE because it's doing this better or that better. In all the areas in where it really counts in serious IT considerations, .NET has not caught up, and relative to the pace of Java innovation is slipping behind further. There are new ideas of computing that Java developers routinely toss around that vast majority of .NET programmers have never heard of. They truly live in a rather closeted computing ghetto.
  33. Please elaborate[ Go to top ]

    We do distributed applications yet for most part these are internal systems. Messaging middle-ware works far better than Microsoft's one-trick pony of web services SOAP RPC or .NET Remoting RPC. Their own MSMQ is a joke solution.


    Well, that's at least two tricks, as web services and remoting have different philosophies. Could you elaborate why you think MSMQ is a "joke solution"?

    > So our IT is moving in direction of server-side development based on Java J2EE and we've purchased a JMS product that has excellent C# .NET client support.

    Interesting, what's the name of the product?

    > What I like about J2EE is that it is architecturally more advanced than .NET and ASP.NET. It addresses capabilities such as JMS connectivity. Again, ASP.NET is basically a one trick pony of web services. They have no architecture thought given to message processing. A crappy C# wrapper over MSMQ which has a really crappy heterogeneous story, sucks to program to, and there's no server architecture thinking in ASP.NET to accommodate it.

    So I guess you can easily post and example that exposes this "crappy C# wrapper".

    > (Like who the heck conceived ASP.NET? What a miserable excuse for an app server. ASP.NET is kind of like the Visual Basic of application servers. Is quick and pretty easy to do a few things at modest scale but is something you stay away from like the plague when you have heavy lifting and serious enterprise systems to devise that involve strategic long term consideration. It's a system that demonstrates a complete lack of thinking about a number of issues that have gone into J2EE the spec and the various J2EE implementations.)

    Now, may be we just have a terminology problem here but ASP.NET is *not* an application server, it's a server-based front-end generator, the likes of servlets/JSP in J2EE. There are other elements of .NET (e.g. Enterprise services or MSMQ -which you will soon show me how bad is ;-) designed to cover this needs but certainly not ASP.NET.

    > Beyond that there is an active Java open source development community that dwarfs what exist for .NET. And I can't begin to stress how crucial the open source tools are!

    Sure enough, especially if the standard platform doesn't cover the need, e.g. there's no unit testing defined in J2EE, therefore JUnit. Of course, the same is true in .NET: we have NUnit and it works just fine.

    > There's some of this kind of stuff in the .NET space but there's just a great deal more in the Java universe. For instance, there is the Sun JDO reference implementation, many other JDO implementations, and then there's open source Hibernate (and I haven't even mentioned J2EE CMP solutions here). Yet the notion of tool-based and/or framework managed persistence in the .NET world is still pretty much regarded as "crazy talk". There are some solutions there but they're pretty few and pretty anemic relative to the Java universe.

    Oh, really? Could you elaborate how solutions like XPO (http://www.devexpress.com/?section=/products/NET/XPO) or DataObjects.NET (http://www.x-tensive.com/Products/DataObjects.NET/) are "anemic" with regards to the J2EE offerings?

    > One thing I will say about Java community, though, is that it is chalk full of whiners that are constantly nagging about this or that with what seems like little appreciation for the embarrassing riches they enjoy as Java developers.

    Here you are right, meanwhile the other side is full of positive energy, guess who will win in the long run...

    > They truly live in a rather closeted computing ghetto.

    A ghetto that covers 9x% of the computer desktops in the world ;-)
  34. Please elaborate[ Go to top ]

    You say:
    "A ghetto that covers 9x% of the computer desktops in the world ;-)"

    I say:
    And not for long. The company I work for is about to migrate ALL their windows servers (applications, pdc servers, email, etc) to Linux. It's been after 3 years of study we are deciding to do it now. The second step is to roll-out linux desktops to all of our 500 pc's across the country. Our pilot has showed us that there is no major problem in regards to user experience, windows-like environments are also available in Linux. Currently 40 users are already working with it with no problem at all.

    You say:
    "Here you are right, meanwhile the other side is full of positive energy, guess who will win in the long run... "

    I say:
    I dont dont if one side is full of positive energy but most of the MS people I still work with feels like they have discovered the gun powder (again!). I use to answer them : been there, done that, everytime they come to me to show me the powerful MS technology (like ClickOnce, which I have been doing since 1996, or discussing the decorator pattern, which again dates way back in time...)

    VB-Like guys now feel like superman with new powers. Ok for them. but remember, you like it or not, we are kind your big brothers. We've been dealing for a while with the kind of problems you are starting to deal. We, obviously, made mistakes and learnt from them. We've got the experience. (Everytime I tell a MS-developer that a particular thing is not gonna ork, they always say: it does not work with Java but c# is better!!... 4 weeks later they come back saying: hey!, how did you know it was not gonna work?)

    and on top of that: we are even sought by MS for their Architect positions in south-america!!! Have a look at the latam page and you will see that they require Java skills... for their MS technical architect positions!!

    Which one is better? none of them. the MS and Java camp will be here for long. but whereas the Java guys are mostly server-side focused, MS guys are desktop guys turning now into the server side. Good luck!!


    That obviously says something...
  35. Please elaborate[ Go to top ]

    Everytime I tell a MS-developer that a particular thing is not gonna ork, they always say: it does not work with Java but c# is better!!... 4 weeks later they come back saying: hey!, how did you know it was not gonna work?)


    Interestingly it seems, for what few .NET projects there are in my area, they would rather hire Java folks than folks steeped in MS technologies since the leap is so great between past MS stuff like VB compared to C#. Not quite like going from COBOL to Java, but a step nonetheless.
  36. I have been developing software for the last 25 years, Java since 1997/8.

    Now I work in Dot.Net and Java equally !

    With Respect
    Tony

  37. > Again, ASP.NET is basically a one trick pony of web services.

    ASP.NET is a web page producing language akin to JSP. It is not web services.

    > (Like who the heck conceived ASP.NET? What a miserable excuse for an app server. ASP.NET is kind of like the Visual Basic of application servers.

    Again, ASP.NET is not an appserver, anymore than JSP is an AppServer.

  38. > > Again, ASP.NET is basically a one trick pony of web services.
    >
    > ASP.NET is a web page producing language akin to JSP. It is not web services.
    >
    > > (Like who the heck conceived ASP.NET? What a miserable excuse for an app server. ASP.NET is kind of like the Visual Basic of application servers.
    >
    > Again, ASP.NET is not an appserver, anymore than JSP is an AppServer.

    I've used ASP.NET to develop middle-tier applications that process SOAP calls.

    It can also provide security authentication as it requires use of IIS up front to do that and it also has a role-based security model. And it has facilities for managing a session state comparable to stateful session beans in J2EE.

    So it is like EJB 1.0 and session beans where instead of RMI it uses SOAP.

    Oh, and of course it does do asp scripts - just as J2EE app servers provide a Java servlet and JSP container for dynamic web page creation, etc.

    Ah, and ASP.NET runs in it's own process in which in further runs a CLR - just as a J2EE app server runs in a process and executes Java byte code on a JVM.

    ASP.NET is basically EJB 1.0 and session beans but still minus some stuff that was in EJB 1.0, and it uses SOAP rpc as opposed to J2EE EJB 1.0 using RMI.

    It sure the heck is an application server. Is just a very minimal one by contemporary standards of application servers in the Java universe.

    Oh, and if you want to do .NET Remoting RPC, then you need to go write a stand alone .NET application to host your server-side implementation. Like I've said - ASP.NET is a one trick pony of just SOAP RPC web services.
  39. Some confusion here[ Go to top ]

    The fact that web services (.asmx files) are hosted by the same process as web pages (.aspx files) doesn't change the purpose of ASP.NET: to be UI layer of .NET web applications, not the application server itself. To better understand the parts and names of the .NET platform technologies I suggest you to read:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnbda/html/distapp.asp

    > Oh, and if you want to do .NET Remoting RPC, then you need to go write a stand alone .NET application to host your server-side implementation. Like I've said - ASP.NET is a one trick pony of just SOAP RPC web services.

    Not so, check this page of the standard .NET documentation:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/cpguide/html/cpconhostingremoteobjectsininternetinformationservicesiis.asp
  40. from .NET to Java/J2EE[ Go to top ]

    Exactly Roger , i agree 150 % with you. Why invest huge amounts of money in .Net projects in terms of stoftware , platform when you get the same output or even much better from Java/J2EE? I say it is a waste of money plus you can't afford to stay uptodate with changes in technology cause you are bound to invest more when using .Net.

    The only investment with Java and its open source tools is merely training and come to think of it if you were to use .Net you would have to invest on training too. The Java communities that surround certain Open Source tools such Xdoclet or Ant allows you to come into DIRECT contact with the core active-developers on these projects. These opens up a direct channel of communication which is impossible in the .Net world.

    I've been reading the threads and franky all the pro-.Net developers were unable to give one good reason why to shift to Microsoft. All i've come upon are people that say .Net is good cause there are loads of .Net delevelopers , etc...in their country so wat you are going to follow the crowd????
  41. I would agree for the most parts with Roger Voss’s assessment. .NET is nowhere near the level of maturity of J2SE/J2EE. But I believe that this gap will rather shrink as time progresses - it is version 1.0 after all and Microsoft usually gets it right awhile later.

    I would however question whether any significant amount of IT shops would migrate from .NET to Java at this time. What we are seeing from our prospective (both Java and .NET vendor) is that people are making very conscious choices when picking up either Java or .NET (and in middle to big shops it is almost always a combination of both). .NET prevails in Microsoft oriented organizations for client-side or WS-related projects while Java would be dominating the server-side development – quite obvious balance. Another point is that many of today’s .NET projects are pilots and I am expecting any serious growth in .NET server-side adoption when Windows Server 2003 + .NET 2.0 (Whidbey) duo hits the ground.

    Regards,
    Niktia.
    xTier - Service Oriented Middleware
  42. About the Article[ Go to top ]

    The article talks mostly J2EE Vs .Net framework, priciples and basics of both. For someone like me trying to get actual implementation help migrating from .NET framework to Java, its a sore.
  43. The Open Road? Should read 'The dead-end road'[ Go to top ]

    I can see several reasons why any firm would want to move from J2EE to .NET (developer productivity, ZERO runtime costs for .NET versus 30K per Websphere license, the fact that java still does not offer anything even comparable in terms of UI controls, easier web service implementations via WCF). Why anyone would want to go the other way remains a complete mystery to me. As a J2ee architect, I build over 6 apps using a variety if app servers (WebLogic, JBoss, Websphere). Since I discovered .NET, I have built over a dozen apps - each app took half the time and is as scalable if not more. Some of experience is summarized in this company that I co-founded

    http://migratetodotnet.com/Section1/webappmigrations/whymigrate/whymigrate.aspx