Discussions

News: Tim Bray joins Sun, explains .NET's "three flaws"

  1. Tim Bray, one of the XML founders, has joined Sun as a Technology Director. He writes about the choices he had, and on why he decided to join Sun, a move that some people have been surprised about.

    On his first day he explained that "Parts of .NET look technically excellent, but it has three fatal flaws".

    Tim on .NET flaws
    The pundits and prognosticators see .NET as a threat to Java's future, but that's silly. Parts of .NET look technically excellent, but it has three fatal flaws:

    • It makes no attempt to hit an 80/20 point. Java was actually pretty lean-and-mean when 1.0 launched and has grown into its current middle-aged spread fairly smoothly. .NET launched as a kitchen-sink-equipped behemoth; it had a legacy problem on Day One.
    • .NET was created by a company with a historic focus on (and infinite experience with) desktop applications, and has a lot of apparatus aimed at building desktop applications. I'm sorry; for most businesses, desktop applications aren't interesting. Put your business logic on the server side and use the Web for your delivery platform. (I think the interesting client applications are on mobile phones and PDAs, these days; and Java looks like a good way to build those, too).
    • .NET comes with the Microsoft agenda attached, wide as the horizon and high as the sky. That agenda is becoming markedly less and less popular among the CIOs and technology buyers of the world. This, I think, is the most serious problem .NET faces.
    Tim, welcome to Sun, and we look forward to seeing some interesting things out of you!

    Read Tim's annoucement on joining Sun.

    More commentary: One of XML's Founding Fathers Joins Sun.

    And a quick search of java.blogs will bring up many, many entries :)

    Threaded Messages (94)

  2. Some of the more ridiculous comments on .NET. Hey, I don't care that it had a "legacy problem on day one" if that means that they got things right in the first place (like detached result sets for example). And if they have a long history with desktop computing, maybe this is the reason, the ASP.NET components are among the best web ui components available, along with a pretty decent development framework. And, hey, developing web services obviously need to be as awkward as with Suns infamous WSDK.

    Honestly, arrogance of this kind is just not what Java needs. You do seldomly outrun the competition just by bad mouthing - you need to do better, offer better APIs (faster), more stable, more scalable implementation etc. etc. There was good reason, Sun tries to target the VB developer community. Some have understood this, others obviously haven't.
  3. Karl - "Some of the more ridiculous comments on .NET. Hey, I don't care that it had a "legacy problem on day one" if that means that they got things right in the first place (like detached result sets for example). And if they have a long history with desktop computing, maybe this is the reason, the ASP.NET components are among the best web ui components available, along with a pretty decent development framework. And, hey, developing web services obviously need to be as awkward as with Suns infamous WSDK."

    Karl is absolutely right, this kind of baseless criticism is not what Java needs. I work for a company that did a lot of .NET development in its early days due to client demand, and you know it's not too bad. ASP.NET is a smooth model although it can perform badly if you just trust VS.NET to get everything right. The toolset is nice although VS.NET had this annoying habit of mysteriousl unlinking buttons from their event handlers adding a bit of spice to the build process. It's quite funny hearing that desktop applications are not "where it is at" as we just put the icing on a huge LAN-based desktop application we built usng .NET. Our client was entrenched in MS and wanted only MS software - plus they have people working on the system 9-5 every day, they needed a nice rich client and .NET delivered.

    The annoying thing is that Java really is better than .NET for everything else but not for the reasons highlighted here. In the same application I spoke of that has the super smooth UI, we had to write our own wrapper for MSMQ as the .NET support is flaky at high throughput and the overhead required to use distributed transactions is diabolical.

    We have quite a bit of experience developing in both .NET and Java and we choose Java whenever the choice is ours, and even when the client is a heavy MS shop we try and get them into the Java mood. In my opinion Java is superior technology but slating .NET in this way is doing no-one any good (except MS maybe when the accusations prove to be just plain wrong).

    Rob
  4. not ridiculous[ Go to top ]

    Some of the more ridiculous comments on .NET.
    I do not think these are ridiculous comments !

    welcome , Tim Bray, WELCOME !
  5. Technology Vs Market[ Go to top ]

    One must remember that .NET is merely a technology but Java is the Market.

    welcome , Tim Bray, WELCOME !
  6. I want to see a bakeoff, that is Java versus .NET building a rich client application (i.e. client for the desktop).

    Yes, I agree, Java is better than .NET everywhere outside the desktop. However, I seriously think that even on the desktop .NET advantage is non-existent.

    So let's have it, a bakeoff, someone define the challenge and lets just see.

    Meanwhile, perfect opportunity to mention 101 additional .NET "flaws":

    http://101.manageability.org
  7. Learning from history, again[ Go to top ]

    Hi Carlos,

    I was getting a little tired of repeating myself, and also I was a little envious on you with your own site. So just in case you have missed it, here is my address

    http://www11.brinkster.com/monoasp/java-net/opinion.stm

    I apologize for the shortness and brevity of the material but I will expand it over the time!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  8. I want to see a bakeoff, that is Java versus .NET building a rich client application (i.e. client for the desktop).Yes, I agree, Java is better than .NET everywhere outside the desktop. However, I seriously think that even on the desktop .NET advantage is non-existent.So let's have it, a bakeoff, someone define the challenge and lets just see.Meanwhile, perfect opportunity to mention 101 additional .NET "flaws":http://101.manageability.org
    You cannot be serious. There is absolutely no comparison when it comes to rich clients. The development time for one thing is astronomical in Java. There are virtually no third-part components and those that are there such as Sitraka 1) absolutely suck 2)are expensive 3)want to get out of the Java UI component market because it costs so much development time and hence is not profitable.
  9. There is absolutely no comparison when it comes to rich clients. The development time for one thing is astronomical in Java. There are virtually no third-part components and those that are there such as Sitraka 1) absolutely suck 2)are expensive 3)want to get out of the Java UI component market because it costs so much development time and hence is not profitable.

    Having developed Java Rich Clients - It doesn't take that long. There are plenty of GUI builders that allow one to crank out Java GUIs (Swing and SWT). If that is the way one wants to do it.

    Third party components? There are more than enough OSS and Closed Source. How many do you need? And Swing makes it easy to roll your own. I've not done enough SWT to comment on that. But look at IDEs written in Swing and SWT. Looks like there are enough components.

    I agree that Java Components are costly if you gotta buy them. But I've found enough OSS components to do most if not all of what most applications need.
  10. I'm doing mostly .NET stuff nowadays. It's very ironic thing is that since JDK 1.4.2 it's easier to write a themed Windows XP look-and-feel application in Java than .NET.

    WinForms is far from a better API than Swing. It might look like that on the surface, but when you try to do interesting things with it it just doesn't work. WinForms is more like AWT than Swing. I suppose Longhorn and Avalon will sort all that out, but that's still years away.
  11. I'm doing mostly .NET stuff nowadays. It's very ironic thing is that since JDK 1.4.2 it's easier to write a themed Windows XP look-and-feel application in Java than .NET.WinForms is far from a better API than Swing. It might look like that on the surface, but when you try to do interesting things with it it just doesn't work. WinForms is more like AWT than Swing. I suppose Longhorn and Avalon will sort all that out, but that's still years away.
    Winforms is far, far richer than Swing. There is absolutely nothing you can do in Swing that cannot be done in Winforms quicker, easier and cleaner. The failure of Swing is only emphasised by the current interest in SQT (yet another API). The problem with SWT is that components and IDE support is only just coming into being so .NET has a huge lead here including a huge 3rd party market.
  12. The main issue I see in .Net currently as others have said is enterprise level support. The development environment for UI is superior as has always been true with Microsoft. The aspects that Microsoft needs to hone are transactions (WS-Transaction, etc.), security (WS-Security) and other enterprise-level services. I still see .Net and J2EE as being orthogonal in some respects, .Net based on web services which target internet-based applications, J2EE targeting LAN-based applications.
  13. Hmmm? Are we still arguing the merits (or lack of) of .NET WinForms API?

    Well here's a like from the 101 list that should stop the argument cold:

    http://www.manageability.org/manageabilityWiki/BetterGUIFramework

    Of course included is a nice quote attributed to Ted Neward (Editor in chief of theServerSide.net) :

    ""... one of the great tragedies of the .NET GUI story--as bad as it was, MFC had all this functionality (Doc/View, for example) that is completely missing in WinForms."
  14. Hmmm? Are we still arguing the merits (or lack of) of .NET WinForms API?Well here's a like from the 101 list that should stop the argument cold:http://www.manageability.org/manageabilityWiki/BetterGUIFrameworkOf course included is a nice quote attributed to Ted Neward (Editor in chief of theServerSide.net) :""... one of the great tragedies of the .NET GUI story--as bad as it was, MFC had all this functionality (Doc/View, for example) that is completely missing in WinForms."
    I didn't know there was an argument. And this article is clearly flawed:

    >> Controls such as TreeView?, ListBox? and ComboBox? don't separate model from presentation, thus it encourages developers to store data in their UI controls.

    this is just false. .NET controls databind to IEnumerable. IEnumerable is implemented by any container. ie. external container. This is much cleaner and easier implementation than the tedious model classes that have to be hand written each time you want to bind data to controls in Swing.
  15. I personally I think it was a better design choice not to include MVC based UI processing, but rather provide an Application UI Process Block: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnbda/html/uip.asp. This design choice gives developers the option of adding complexity only when needed.

    If Microsoft implemented this block or an MVC based development requirement as part of WinForms it would have most certainly ticked-off most its Windows GUI developers (VB Developers).
  16. Winforms is far, far richer than Swing. There is absolutely nothing you can do in Swing that cannot be done in Winforms quicker, easier and cleaner.
    Try embedding a custom control in a grid (you have to do all your own drawing, we just implemented our own grid component). Try doing layout of a form with highly dynamic content (we wrote our own layout manager). Try to use the data binding extensively without the whole thing falling over (you can't, we wrote our own data binding framework, without bugs). Try to understand the whole DataSet/DataGrid/DataView design tangle (I sure don't get it). Try to get themed Windows XP look-and-feel (you can with Genghis or commercial components, but they're either really expensive or performance is just absurd).

    Some stuff is definitely better in WinForms than in Swing, overall Swing is still in the lead though. I'm sure this will be changed with Avalon if the Java camp doesn't react soon.

    (And don't even get me started on SWT.)
  17. To really deliver on this challenge, arm your developers with XTT. A pure Java RAD tool specifically designed for distributed, Rich Client Apps on Java.

    It will blow .NET away !!

    http://www.insitechinc.com
  18. To really deliver on this challenge, arm your developers with XTT. A pure Java RAD tool specifically designed for distributed, Rich Client Apps on Java. Look and feel of VB / PB with drag and drop, point and click and wizards all in pure Java. FINALLY !!

    It will blow .NET away !!

    http://www.insitechinc.com
  19. I was hoping to see some technical arguments: while the first one may have some merit, the next two certainly do not -- although I'm not a .NET user I fail to see how either of these are really flaws, at least from the technical perspective. Disappointed.
  20. Agreed. I also think that it would be better to provide technical
    arguments, rather than talk about "Microsoft agenda" etc.

    Dmitry
    http://www.servletsuite.com/jsp.htm
    ASP.NET similar custom tags :-)
  21. technical arguments[ Go to top ]

    Agreed. I also think that it would be better to provide technical arguments, rather than talk about "Microsoft agenda" etc.
    OK, here's one that we are running into. In .NET, the inherent Date class has no concept of timezone. The system always thinks it is in the timezone that windows is configured with. So take you enterprise XML and move it from an East Coast to a West Coast server and watch your information magic transform all the times in teh XML by 3 hours.

    Daniel Holmes
  22. technical arguments[ Go to top ]

    Agreed. I also think that it would be better to provide technical arguments, rather than talk about "Microsoft agenda" etc.
    OK, here's one that we are running into. In .NET, the inherent Date class has no concept of timezone. The system always thinks it is in the timezone that windows is configured with. So take you enterprise XML and move it from an East Coast to a West Coast server and watch your information magic transform all the times in teh XML by 3 hours.Daniel Holmes
    Although .NET does have the TimeZone class for handling time zones.
  23. Tim Bray is right[ Go to top ]

    I'm sorry to disagree with the first two posters, but I think Tim is spot on.

    Microsoft agenda is definitely not something even a Microsoft apologist can ignore. .NET is not a first class citizen on Unix and never will be. Throughout Microsoft's history, Microsoft has offered only a token support of the competitors (such as Apple) and only when those competitors are in a non-threatening position. Don't bother bringing up Mono, because Mono is not a full .NET suite and again, never will be. That's true thanks to Microsoft patents and lack of standardization for huge areas of .NET. Only a token portion of .NET is ECMA standard, and even then, RAND licensing is dubious at best, because who gets to define "reasonable"? Remember the time when W3C was considering RAND licensing for some Web standards, and how strongly and unanimously the community has spoken against it?

    With Java, we have choice. Java is a first class citizen on a lot of platforms, and this includes Windows. It might even be said that Sun's Windows JVM is a higher quality build than the same for many other platforms. The day when Microsoft makes such awesome efforts to produce crispy clean .NET builds for Solaris, AIX, FreeBSD, Linux, Apple OS X/Darwin, is the day when we can say Tim's comments are unfounded.

    Of course, Sun does not make a JVM build for AIX, but on the other hand, the specification and JCP is open enough for IBM to make one. I am sure if .NET was a truly open platform (as opposed to the poison-pill-"shared source"-like "open") a company like IBM would embrace it and make their own .NET implementation. But this is not going to happen given current Microsoft's aggressively hostile (violent) attitude toward competitors. It's good to compete, but you never see an Olympic gold being won through backstabbing and mob-like baseball club beating, do you? Microsoft is just not a civilized citizen and there is no reason why we should close our eyes on Microsoft's misdeeds just to get a prettier GUI and more expedient short term results. With our actions today we decide the fate of the world 50 years from now.

    Here's to the computing industry that is free and open to all, forever.
  24. Tim Bray is right[ Go to top ]

    .NET is not a first class citizen on Unix and never will be.
    Java is a first class citizen on a lot of platforms, and this includes Windows.
    Sorry, but I disagree with you here. I very much prefer Java over .Net, but I don't agree that java is a first class citizen on any platform. Java + SWT already comes a lot closer than Java + Swing. But Java applications do not integrate well with many Windows functions (services for instance, or desktop integration), and neither do they integrate well with many Unix things -- unless you add C/C++ helper code.

    .Net at least is a first class citizen on Windows, but of course precisely that stops it from being a portable platform with regards to Unix...


    I'd have to say btw that I very much prefer Java's approach to database connectivity over .Net; .Net makes it very hard to write database-independant code unless you use ODBC or OLEDB. If you want to use a db-native driver, you're basically forced to write to it's classes directly and can't easily swap one for the other without putting your own abstraction layer on top of it... Yuck :-(

    regards,

    --Tim
  25. This is one of the more jejune comments I have seen regarding the technical merits of .Net.

    -M
  26. It's about freedom[ Go to top ]

    Hey, technically speaking, slave labor can be quite efficient. But it is not ethical.

    This is not about who builds the slickest GUI or the fastest runtime. This is about the kind of computing environment we are creating for our grandchildren. Computing is not just a clicky button. Programming is an art form and a mode of self-expression.

    What would the world be like if only one huge monopolist company manufactured all paints, canvases, brushes and other art supplies? What if said company only sold these to "licensed" artists whose paintings are in accord with the company policy? Such a world would be hell.

    Open your eyes. There is more to life than just making a quick buck. Life is not all about money and how to make the most of it in the fastest amount possible. This issue is bigger than mere technical merit. We should judge on every merit and not just on technical one.
  27. It's about freedom[ Go to top ]

    This one was funny. My friend, the American dream is all about making a quick buck. IBM,Sun,Oracle and all the other companies out there do it. Why should MS be held to some budha like priciple when every other company out there is operating in a darwinian world.

    -M
  28. ah[ Go to top ]

    Friend, us protesting Microsoft's unethical business policies IS a DARWINIAN responce! When I don't like something, I act against it. That's Darwinian. It is Darwinian evolution that has caused people to rebel against opression, and that's why we have the Constitution and the Bill of Rights! :)

    We enjoy these freedoms today because we have WON them in a fight. :) It's not because Britain or slave owners were finally held up to some Buddha-like purity. No, we paid for these in blood. I suppose it all depends on how impartant these things are to you. Not everyone is the same. But freedom of expression has been determined to be worth blood and lives in the past, and I won't be surprised if push comes to shove and the same decision will be made again.

    Yes, Darwinian evolution. Precisely. It works for business. It works for idealists too. It works for anyone who will fight. Of course diplomacy is always the first choice! How I wish Microsoft was willing to talk with its opponents. But beyond some merely symbolic marketspeak spin, I've yet to see anything solid and concrete from Microsoft. I've yet to see some kind of firm commitment to freedom of computing from Microsoft. If anything, all I see is attempt after attempt to take away whatever little freedoms we have today.
  29. It's about freedom[ Go to top ]

    This one was funny. My friend, the American dream is all about making a quick buck. IBM,Sun,Oracle and all the other companies out there do it. Why should MS be held to some budha like priciple when every other company out there is operating in a darwinian world. -M
    Yes, it is not a good argument. I think programming is more about enginiering than about the art or religion.
    If MS will do a better clone for JAVA than JAVA itself, then I will drop JAVA and I will use this clone, but I do not think MS can do it alone (without open source).
  30. It's about freedom[ Go to top ]

    This one was funny. My friend, the American dream is all about making a quick buck.
    That is not the original American Dream. That thinking has created the American Nightmare
  31. It's about freedom[ Go to top ]

    Hey, technically speaking, slave labor can be quite efficient. But it is not ethical.This is not about who builds the slickest GUI or the fastest runtime. This is about the kind of computing environment we are creating for our grandchildren. Computing is not just a clicky button. Programming is an art form and a mode of self-expression.What would the world be like if only one huge monopolist company manufactured all paints, canvases, brushes and other art supplies? What if said company only sold these to "licensed" artists whose paintings are in accord with the company policy? Such a world would be hell.Open your eyes. There is more to life than just making a quick buck. Life is not all about money and how to make the most of it in the fastest amount possible. This issue is bigger than mere technical merit. We should judge on every merit and not just on technical one.
    I strongly agree ! You are right!
  32. Having seen what Java has done wrong and done right, .NET is a viable competitor to Java. However, being pro-Java, there are a couple known issues I have:

    1. This is more of a philosophical issue. By default, Java puts most functionality behind an interface (javax.sql, org.w3c.dom, Swing data models). And despite having default implementations of these interfaces, Java almost EXPECTS other implementations to be created and have the need to easily plug in. On the other hand, Microsoft has fewer interfaces and expects to be the one any only provider of various pieces of functionality. Without writing wrapper interfaces, it's a pain to plug a different implemetation in.

    2. EXE's and DLL's vs JAR Files? Why do we have to have a special class collection to create an executable? Everything should've been generic assembly files with a default class built into the MS version of a manifest.

    3. Assembly dependence vs Classpath. This is no unnecessary. It makes it so painful to reorganize classes into different collections (maybe an assembly is too big and needs to be split). Java does much better in just making the runtime resolve the location of a class.
  33. not trying..[ Go to top ]

    Richard: "NET is a viable competitor to Java.."

    The old client-Server had easy of use and productivity, but was too expensive to install and maintain. Web-applications that have easy maintenance and no install solved that problem but the user-interface degraded- not so gracefully.

    It is obvious that if someone could offer BOTH, that technology will become the dominant. If, and I say if, this solutions should appear, it will certainly not come from the Java/J2EE side- because they are not even trying.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  34. not knowing - nothing new[ Go to top ]

    It is obvious that if someone could offer BOTH...
    You mean, like Java Web Start?
    You mean, like MS Click-Once?

    Given that Webstart has been around for 3 years now, I guess that the Java/J2EE side cant really be trying at all.... Has click-once been released yet?

    Having said that, Sun could put a one-handed student developer on WebStart and cover both his/her eyes, and hit them with a big stick every time they typed a character on the keyboard and still have had more progress on Web Start than it has seen in the past 3 years...

    It is rumoured that they are finally spending some effort on Web Start - there are meant to be some nice new features in JDK1.5 (pluggable security policies for one) - but I seriously hope they realise what a winner they have there for corporate application development.
  35. Nick: "You mean, like Java Web Start? You mean, like MS Click-Once?"

    No, I mean like Mozilla XUL, Macromedia Flex, XWT or many other such projects like Microsoft XAML. And work. "What do you mean work?" I mean that you rally have to put some effort into the client-Side too. I never saw a J2EE enterprise application with anything than a most simple client. It is not easy to make a good interface!

    It is almost as the Java camp in their hearts believe that it doesn't really matter and that Microsoft is going to win anyway.

    I do believe in Microsoft (and Open source Mono!). It is not that they have things like Delegates or True Generics or better web controls or bagatelles like that. It is about doggedly determination and persistence. I have seen so many releases from MS. Sometimes they succeed in the first try (like .NET). Other times they don't. But Microsoft is like the Terminator in the way that they never give up..

    "Microsoft will lie, cheat, steal, or maybe just work very, very hard—whatever it takes. That's the most intimidating realization of all for competitors."

    That is why my heart goes to MS. They are not WIMPS. Sun has descended to name-calling and has no faith in and resources behind Java- Microsoft see its very survival tied-up in .NET.

    Most of all I want to see the faces at Sun when they discover that "Java desktop" is build with C#! :)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  36. Can you now read what Cameron Purdy tried to explain in a previous post and give a decent answer ? :-)

    Can you understand the simple fact that replying to this "Java vs .NET" thing won't do any good to you or anybody else ?

    Can you understand that Java isn't about Sun but about OPEN ? I mean open like in "open minded" ?

    Can you understand that with all the money M$ is pushing their technology, the death of Java as a platform means we all would end up by not knowing anything else ? Do you know what a dictator is ? If you would have lived in Romania (and others of course, but there is where I've learned) for the past 50 years you would have known. That is why Java is better.

    When you'll learn all these maybe you'll manage to use your intelligence not to go ".NET is better than Java" which is a mere nonsense but "having a viable alternative is better than life".

    So again, read Cameron's post again and give an answer :-)
  37. The above post is for Rolf. I want to make sure he don't misses that :-)
  38. MS has already won[ Go to top ]

    Internet World runs on Internet Explorer not Netscape.
    If sun is not able to develop evena decent browser, then what is all this noise about ?
  39. Wrong way round.[ Go to top ]

    Internet World runs on Internet Explorer not Netscape.If sun is not able to develop evena decent browser, then what is all this noise about ?
    You haven't been paying attention. The Internet World runs on Apache, and there's J2EE behind a lot of them.

    "http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html
  40. Wrong again what is important are enterprise applications. PR, presentation and X-rated sites are not interesting.

    According to this survey, 53.5 percent of the sites surveyed ran Microsoft IIS. This was more than double the 19.3 percent running Apache.

    Microsoft Leads Port80 Web Server Study

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  41. Rolf:
    According to this survey, 53.5 percent of the sites surveyed ran Microsoft IIS. This was more than double the 19.3 percent running Apache.

    Microsoft Leads Port80 Web Server Study


    And my favorite quote from this objective article:

    Port 80, a Microsoft IIS software developer

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  42. The Port80 Web Server Study was measuring the Top 1000 corporate Web sites.
    Netcraft count all sites, x-rated, parked etc etc.

    you do not believe the Port80 study, you say, because they are a"Microsoft IIS software developer" company. So just for the record, how is your estimate of the share between Apache and IIS in the segment of "Top 1000 corporate sites"? Try to be honest for one time sake, please.

    I too can play this game of accusing conspiracy and foul play each and every time of every survey and study- even to the limit of distrusting your own forum :)

    But unfortunately I never can get to play this game, as there never is any positive survey for any J2EE product :( crying..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    "MS trolling philosophical zealot"
  43. Rolf: you do not believe the Port80 study, you say, because they are a"Microsoft IIS software developer" company. So just for the record, how is your estimate of the share between Apache and IIS in the segment of "Top 1000 corporate sites"? Try to be honest for one time sake, please.

    Every big company that we work with is absolutely dependent on Microsoft, including IIS. Oh, and Sun, including SunOne and iPlanet and Netscape server. Oh, and IBM, including AIX and MQ series its Apache rip and WebSphere. Oh, and BEA too, including WebLogic and some old C++ transaction thing that dresses up in a suit (Tuxedo). Oh, and Tibco. And so on.

    I'm a realist. I see Microsoft everywhere. They're not going anywhere. Neither is IBM or Sun or Oracle etc., but I will say that Microsoft doesn't have growth on the server side in most big companies, because they've all given up on the pipe dream of Windows running DCOM replacing their core systems that make them money.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  44. Apache still rules on web boxes[ Go to top ]

    Looking at the Netcraft results people are dumping IIs and .Not servers

    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html
  45. A modest attempt[ Go to top ]

    Dorel: "Do you know what a dictator is?" Yes.

    Webster: dic.ta•tor Latin, from dictare
    c : one ruling absolutely and often oppressively

    According to Platon, Socrates used the word Arkont- superior ruler, but divided between the one who ruled with the consent of the people, which he called King, and the case where the ruling was against the people will, which he called Tyrant. To call Microsoft dictator/tyrant is not by any stretch of imagination correct.

    To be able to use reason and logic is not the easiest. You could divide, in the manner of Socrates, the Sun/Microsoft case into the following parts,

    1) Criminal 2) Moral 3) Dedication 4) Competence 5) Resources and 6) Attitude.

    1) Criminal. MS has done nothing that not all big companies do daily.

    Diderot: "I can stand thieves, robbers and murderer- it is all part of the world’s multitude, I have more problems with intellectual hypocrisy."
    There was an old police chief in a little village that divided his whole jurisdiction in two parts: "taken and not taken yet". None of us is totally innocent if our lives should be examined in detail and described "as the devil read the bible". From my point of view, the Microsoft offense amounts to something like "luring Java developers to incorrect use of semicolon".

    BTW,
    Dorel: "Can you now read what Cameron Purdy tried to explain in a previous post and give a decent answer ? :-)"

    Why should I try to answer anyone that’s sneaks in false statements (Java a de facto standard! :) habitually in bi-sentences? Cameron is the epitome of hypocrisy.

    2)Moral. And all through this slimy behavior you hear Scott McNealy whining.

    To sue Microsoft was foul and cowardly. But not only that, Sun's behavior has always been more manipulative, crafty, cunning and insidious than even Machiavelli. Promising two times to deliver Java to a Standard Organization, and then redraw- drawing out the process as much as possible to give time for the international Java community to build up Java under false premises, giving Sun the stewardness and ownership of Java to which they perhaps have contributed 2-3 percent. Well done! And that of a company that neither produce its own hardware nor OS nor has had one single successful software product ever. :)

    Furthermore, neither Sun nor any J2EE vendor has had the courage to post any figure on any TPC benchmark, instead they created their own J2EE Benchmark and probits against comparing with MS!:) In fact sometimes I wonder how J2EE developers can se people in the eyes..

    3) Dedication and focus

    doggedly determination and persistence

    4) Intelligence and talent

    "Microsoft, the equivalent of an intelligent and talented individual in a world of mediocrity"

    5) Resources

    As we all know, Microsoft has more resources (more than 10 times as big as Sun). In other words, they have both the money and the talent.

    6) Attitude
    MS support and attitude against all three groups of customers, users, power users and developers is excellent. Sun support is a joke, and to support users? They are insulted by the mere idea. :)

    Finally.

    Contrary to common belief, there are not the big "houses" in Paris that sets the fashion. It starts in the streets of New York inspired by cultures all around the world. Then it is taken up by "the finger on the pulse companies" like Xara and H&M, and first then it is taken up by Armani, Hermes, Gucci and the likes. Last of all it is coming to the third world.

    I do not know the exact ways of "Software Fashion", but I know at least that it last comes to the former countries of East-Europa and in Latin-America. And I can assure you, Java/J2EE is not "Hot".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  46. A modest attempt of FUD[ Go to top ]

    I can live with "well-meaning impractical theorists", but "trolling philosophical zealots", man... They should seriously reevaluate what they are doing with their share of O2. ;)
  47. A modest attempt[ Go to top ]

    Dorel: "Do you know what a dictator is?" Yes.Webster: dic.ta•tor Latin, from dictarec : one ruling absolutely and often oppressively...

    Sorry Rolf you don't get it.
    I can read a definition that doesn't mean I actually feel what it defines. I can read 5 programming books, I won't be a good programmer until I'll feel the joy of running few programs I wrote myself. The question was rethoric. I don't think you ever felt what a dictator is. So you don't know what it is. You know the definition of it. That's all.
    In fact sometimes I wonder how J2EE developers can se people in the eyes..
    This is cool. Poor J2EE developers. They've been accused that they persist in the "Java is the coolest" kind of fanatism. Now they don't belong into this honest world having the sin of doing some J2EE programming. Gee.
    ResourcesAs we all know, Microsoft has more resources (more than 10 times as big as Sun). In other words, they have both the money and the talent.
    Indeed. Just that they use it for completely other purposes than "Open" stuff. And often aginst "Open" stuff. See the shit behind SCO attack on IBM/Linux.

    I won't cite all what you've said because they are nice definitions. Thanks to the people who bothered to give us a "standard" of naming things.

    So you answered to all questions Rolf but you didn't get what I said. Sad.
  48. more pseudo-philosophy[ Go to top ]

    Dorel: "If you would have lived in Romania (and others of course, but there is where I've learned) for the past 50 years you would have known"

    Socrates would not have loved you because he wanted men to use something he called "reason and logic", not strong points of Open Source proselytes.

    For instance, "Microsoft is a monopoly and Linux is a very good desktop OS that will in this and that year replace Windows" is not logical. Either "Microsoft is a monopoly" is true or "Linux will replace Windows" is true.
    Not both.

    Furthermore if you had used this "reason and logic" you would not have compared MS to Romania, (beautiful country BTW- I love Transylvania) If I should try to help you it would have been more apt to compare Microsoft to Dracula! (or Vlad Tepes, the character Stoker build upon). Open Source people on the other hand is very similar to early communists, the fanatism, the idealism, the semi-religiosity is all there (-as the vulgarity and crassness :)

    But it was the free market that has build welfare everywhere were it exists, not socialism or any "isms" at all. People follow these movements because they are stupid and incapable to independent thinking. Precisely the thing that enraged Socrates most.

    Cameron: "And, on the off chance that I'm wrong, it will truly mark the end of the open and competitive software industry."

    Wrong. It is Open Source that is threatening to destroy the open and competitive software industry.

    And with the .NET, I just can not resist it.
    Like Oscar Wilde ("I can resist everything, except temptations"), I have a lack in my character (who hasn't..) My particular decefit is that I can resist everything, except the latest fashions :(

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  49. more pseudo-philosophy[ Go to top ]

    Cameron: "And, on the off chance that I'm wrong, it will truly mark the end of the open and competitive software industry."

    Rolf: "Wrong. It is Open Source that is threatening to destroy the open and competitive software industry."

    Open Source is a natural reaction, just as anarchism and nihilism (and eventually communism) swept across Europe and Russia in a respose to 19th century totalitarianism.

    So yes, Open Source may have anarchistic and nihilistic and communistic tendencies, but ask yourself what totalitarian regime could have precipitated such a movement? ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  50. more pseudo-philosophy[ Go to top ]

    But it was the free market that has build welfare everywhere were it exists, not socialism or any "isms" at all.
    Rolf, this free market happens to be an "ism" too: Capitalism. I thought you'd know this, given all your high wisdom and philosophical knowledge.
    People follow these movements because they are stupid and incapable to independent thinking. Precisely the thing that enraged Socrates most.
    Tell me if you follow Capitalism with a true independent thinking. Are you sure? Maybe Open Source community is actually doing exactly this, thinking independently of Capitalism leaders and their "stupid followers"...

    Rolf, maybe I should remind you that this is a Java technical forum, so your MS propaganda and philosophical blatter is boring and uninteresting to us. But I thought you knew this, given all your high wisdom, philosophical knowledge and first world education.

    Cheers,
    Henrique Steckeberg
  51. more pseudo-philosophy[ Go to top ]

    For instance, "Microsoft is a monopoly and Linux is a very good desktop OS that will in this and that year replace Windows" is not logical. Either "Microsoft is a monopoly" is true or "Linux will replace Windows" is true. Not both.
    Check out the definition of "Monopoly" - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=monopoly

    Empires, Dictators, Monopolies and etc. do crumble. For one reason or another. And one day the MS desktop monopoly (not using it in a bad way) will fall. They all do. On reason or another - Arrogance, Corruption, external attacks, etc. History has this odd habit of repeating itself. Predicting when the fall will happen is not wrong. Maybe not smart.

    Also -
    Microsoft is a monopoly - Truth
    Linux will replace Windows - Prediction. Possible truth.
    A monopoly can fail and be replaced by something else. So they both can be true.
  52. more pseudo-philosophy[ Go to top ]

    Mark: "Win some lose some. That is the way it will go. I am working on a lean and mean product right now"

    Exactly, you and Felicity are 100% right. There will always be a market for a good lean and mean product. Back in time before the Web where MS had 90% of everything we had no problem at selling our product. The small stores that specialize have no problem compete against big warehouses.

    Mark: "Empires, Dictators, Monopolies (and civilizations, my comment) etc. do crumble..history has this odd habit of repeating itself"

    Of course you are right again. I understand that you have read your Toynbee and the "the rise and decline of civilizations". But it will not happen because of Sun/Java. The most common reason for the fall is inner corruption. Referring to Toynbee again, you will remember that when a civilization meets a challenge that not kills them it makes them stronger. While they that does not have any resistance is "resting on its oars".

    You will find another example of this peculiar lack of "reason and logic" in the Open Source community in the new thread Future of desktop development: Java, Mono, C++?
    johnyzee: "Like other posters I don't understand the drive to enable C# development on Linux. Clearly it would be a scoop for Microsoft to have additional commoditization of C# applications (and developers) through the support of the Linux community, increasing the value of the entire network of existing and future C# applications, platforms and developers."

    Of course it will be a big win for MS. But in thousands of posts in both TSS and in other Java forums they insists that Mono is just a big trap set by Microsoft so they can attack with IP and Patents :)

    Henrique: "maybe I should remind you that this is a Java technical forum, so your MS propaganda and philosophical blatter is boring and uninteresting.."

    I have posted a mail to Dion and said that he only has to ask me to stop and I will comply. But I have received no such request. So I think that I will continue for a while at least in the threads that deals directly with Java vs .NET like this one with Tim Bray's post.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  53. more pseudo-philosophy[ Go to top ]

    Henrique: "maybe I should remind you that this is a Java technical forum, so your MS propaganda and philosophical blatter is boring and uninteresting.."I have posted a mail to Dion and said that he only has to ask me to stop and I will comply. But I have received no such request. So I think that I will continue for a while at least in the threads that deals directly with Java vs .NET like this one with Tim Bray's post.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Rolf, everyone here would be more than pleased if you just gave technical resposes in defense of things said against MS in the forum, instead of just trolling and posting MS propaganda here, stating that MS is the best and java is crap. Not mentioning your crystal ball "I know the future" prophecies. Try to use your moral and think if this is adequate. I am sure you don't need to rely on someone else to come to a conclusion of your own.

    Maybe I am just wasting my time talking to you anyway: if you really had any technical expertise in MS technology, you wouldn't be defending it so much in the first place... it's kind of antagonistic, you know? ;)

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  54. respectfully, I disagree[ Go to top ]

    Henrique: "everyone here would be more than pleased if you just gave technical responses in defense of things said against MS"

    I am interested in technical matters in fact I am going to start a new C# project in a couple of weeks at "workspaces" for a "Java like" MVC framework.

    But there are 1000's of technical forums. The unique thing with TSS is just the way it is, difficult to explain but special. But at least it is not technical only. There are nothing like it on the entire internet.

    I take it that the next to last discussion we had was technical enough for you?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  55. respectfully, I disagree[ Go to top ]

    Henrique: "everyone here would be more than pleased if you just gave technical responses in defense of things said against MS"I am interested in technical matters in fact I am going to start a new C# project in a couple of weeks at "workspaces" for a "Java like" MVC framework.But there are 1000's of technical forums. The unique thing with TSS is just the way it is, difficult to explain but special. But at least it is not technical only. There are nothing like it on the entire internet.I take it that the next to last discussion we had was technical enough for you?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Yes, I consider that technical in some aspects. What I mean is that we stick to things that have some kind of "material" proof or is based on facts, instead of name calling, MS propaganda, future guessings and personal taste. We can leave those to marketing people. Of course we should express and respect personal opinion, and that's one of the reasons this forum exists, but we appreciate when it comes with some humbleness too.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  56. respectfully, I disagree[ Go to top ]

    I am interested in technical matters in fact I am going to start a new C# project in a couple of weeks at "workspaces" for a "Java like" MVC framework.
    Rolf, it's just my cusiosity, but does that mean that you are engaging in a Open Source project of your own, or am I missing something here? It's just because you have shown strong views agains OS, and so I am finding this a bit strange... And what about those KISS and Java complexity stuff too, wouldn't this MVC project be against your previous statements? One last thing: doesn't .Net already have a MVC framework in ASP.Net? Sorry about my curiousity...

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  57. Henrique: "does that mean that you are engaging in an Open Source project"

    No, Workspaces allow any kind of license, no GPL!

    Henrique: "And what about KISS"
    Yes, of course.

    Henrique: "doesn't Net already have a MVC framework in ASP.Net"

    Yes, and? In the Java world there is coming 1 or 2 every day, not having my own would be unfair. I need it for replication and synchronization issues, for raw performance and for the fun of it.

    Earlier in this thread we were broaching the subject of Rich-Clients and XAML. "To bring the web page design culture into the richer world of native UI".

    I though you might be interested to see what Gnome is pondering in this area:
    What next for GNOME's user interface?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  58. Henrique: "does that mean that you are engaging in an Open Source project"No, Workspaces allow any kind of license, no GPL!
    But Open Source != GPL, I meant Open Source in general (source code available for anyone for free, whatever the license adopted). Are you reevaluating your concepts? ;)
    Henrique: "And what about KISS"Yes, of course.Henrique: "doesn't Net already have a MVC framework in ASP.Net"Yes, and? In the Java world there is coming 1 or 2 every day, not having my own would be unfair. I need it for replication and synchronization issues, for raw performance and for the fun of it.Earlier in this thread we were broaching the subject of Rich-Clients and XAML. "To bring the web page design culture into the richer world of native UI".I though you might be interested to see what Gnome is pondering in this area:What next for GNOME's user interface?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    I again recomend to you highly Martin Fowlers's book about enterprise patterns, I am sure it can help you in your new endeavour!

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  59. always willing to help[ Go to top ]

    If you happen to see Martin Fowler passing by tell him to contact me if he wants any advice of how we real programmers optimise for performance.
  60. pillow talk[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: If you happen to see Martin Fowler passing by tell him to contact me if he wants any advice of how we real programmers optimise for performance.

    Yes, Martin and I discussed just this problem last night, and as a matter of fact, he asked for your phone number, but I couldn't find it. Please post it here, and I'll give it to him tonight.

    </sarcasm>

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  61. nighty, nighty[ Go to top ]

    Goodnight Cameron, time to go to bed. Thank you for entertaining my day!

    a last link, http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel//texts/patents.html

    Henrique, you complain that we don't talk about technical issues but when I give you links to interesting subjects I don't get any feedback! (You know that XAML/GNOME thing that Cameron is trying to laugh away to make it seem unimportant.. :-)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  62. hmm..[ Go to top ]

    Mark,

    I followed your advice and went to Dictionary.com. One of the definitions was,

    "arrogantly claims to have a monopoly on the truth"

    :) I confess I am guilty!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  63. hmm..[ Go to top ]

    Mark,I followed your advice and went to Dictionary.com. One of the definitions was,"arrogantly claims to have a monopoly on the truth":) I confess I am guilty!RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Usage. Not definition.
    But, you are right, it does fit.
  64. more pseudo-philosophy[ Go to top ]

    - "My particular decefit is that I can resist everything, except the latest fashions :("
    - "OO is out, WS in"
    - "Java? this is so last week!!"
    - "You must follow the fashion"
    - "Platon says...."
    - "Carefully handcrafted applications... a jewell!"
    <List goes on>

    Just got back home and noticed that most "technical arguments" from our favourite troll sound very similar to the kind of talking you can find in "Queer eye for the straight guy" reality show... I was laughing my guts off!!!

    If you wanna mark me as noisy, it's fine with me... hahahahah :-P
  65. "Microsoft will lie, cheat, steal, or maybe just work very, very hard—whatever it takes. That's the most intimidating realization of all for competitors." That is why my heart goes to MS. RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Wow. I mean, wow... I am speechless. Having no morals is something people applauds nowadays. And then MS zealots wonder why people hate MS so much. And it tells us a lot about some MS supporters personality too. How sad.
  66. Rolf - " I never saw a J2EE enterprise application with anything than a most simple client. It is not easy to make a good interface!"

    If you take a look at what all the wall st. financial firms are building their trading systems then you will be in for a surprise. Yes, its java swing rich clients with alot of functionality. Lesse - JP Morgan, Chase, Merril, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank, Goldman, etc.. The list goes on and on.

    Unfortunately your view is extremely limited.
  67. ya whatever[ Go to top ]

    No, I mean like Mozilla XUL, Macromedia Flex, XWT or many other such projects like Microsoft XAML.
    Well, thats not what you said. You said "The old client-Server ... too expensive to install and maintain ... Web-applications ... user-interface degraded"

    With both of these technologies, you have
    a) No installation concerns (there is no installation) - and complete inter-application isolation.
    b) Full desktop application functionality in a programming model suited to the problem.

    As for "impractical theorists" - your track record on theory is well established here.... and TSS.net...

    >> That is why my heart goes to MS
    Very touching.

    -Nick
  68. Whatever what..[ Go to top ]

    Nick,

    Sorry I don't understand your post. What two technologies have no problem?

    BTW, do you have any opinion of how Gnome could be programmed in the future?

    Nick: "Very touching"
    Thank you!

    Found another thread on C#/Gnome here,
    http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=5746&limit=no

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  69. The two I mentioned[ Go to top ]

    What two technologies have no problem
    ??

    The two I mentioned in my previous post? The one you replied to...

    Java Web Start.
    Click-Once.

    -Nick
  70. fashion now and in the future[ Go to top ]

    The only real pleasure for us trolling intellectual philosophers is to correctly predict the future :)

    Nick,

    Java Web Start
    Click-Once

    With both of these technologies, you have
    a) No installation concerns (there is no installation) - and complete inter-application isolation.
    b) Full desktop application functionality in a programming model suited to the problem.


    You know what? Somehow I don't think Java Web Start or Click-Once will make it in the current form. They offer more functionality, granted, but we will not be willing to abstain from the elegant HTML designs we have today.

    In the PDC samples collection there was an experiment that embedded IE in a C# desktop application so you could call back and forth between C# and JavaScript and at the same time had the full power of both Windows Forms and the browser- yes, yes, this is what I want!

    We are so easily spoiled, we wants,

    1) No installation concerns
    2) Complete inter-application isolation
    3) Full desktop application functionality
    4) AND all the browser capabilities we are used to today.
    5) Productivity

    In other words, everything. :)

    And that is what MS is promising with XAML/Avalon, and even adds to it.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  71. fashion now and in the future[ Go to top ]

    The only real pleasure for people like you (trolling intellectual pseudo-philosophers) is to correctly fool themselves in predicting the future ...

    Haven't you learnt your lesson after a MS Guy from MS EMEA HQ exposed you as a liar stating false metrics to support your claims??? http://www.theserverside.net/news/thread.tss?thread_id=24291


    Programming with Tomcat with Open Source middleware is an agreeable experience. The reason for me to leave that word - I have said this before - was that semi-technical management people did not understand that my carefully handcrafted and fast apps was superior to the EJB shit that was produced by fresh students from University. OK - so I move on.

    What a joke... nope buddy, you haven't moved on, you are still here, otherwise you will be discussing in TSS.NET (They may need your help since the site is quite silent... you for sure know to make noise)

    And also looks like you haven't got over the fact they prefered to work with fresh students instead of you. Just reading the loads of cyber-crap you pour in here makes me agree with your ex-managers.

    EJB shit?? hehehehe... how about DLL hell?

    my carefully handcrafted and fast apps Good, hope you dont mind to provide us with a sample of your carefully handcrafted and fast app. And I really hope your app is not just a grid displaying data. But who knows...

    Back to real things... Our migration to Linux has started!!!
  72. Welcome back![ Go to top ]

    Hi Roberto,

    Roberto: "The only real pleasure for people like you (trolling intellectual pseudo-philosophers) is to correctly fool themselves in predicting the future"

    Well to know if you have been right you need to wait until the future arrives of course. So maybe you remember the discussions about EJB? Maybe you even read "Marc Fleury Hard Core Tech Talk Interview Posted on TSS" (January 31, 2002)
    http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=11650

    Maybe you would like to ask Richard Öberg or any other of the staunch EJB advocates at the time about EJB today?

    So, I can see no reason for that I can not say:

    "I told you so"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (Anyhow I am glad you followed my advice to stop the shouting and big letters and even post under your real name. Welcome to the civilized world!)
  73. In the PDC samples collection there was an experiment that embedded IE in a C# desktop application so you could call back and forth between C# and JavaScript and at the same time had the full power of both Windows Forms and the browser- yes, yes, this is what I want!
    Hmm, internet explorer control has been available for years and years, equally Mozilla. What's new about that?
    We are so easily spoiled, we wants,1) No installation concerns2) Complete inter-application isolation3) Full desktop application functionality4) AND all the browser capabilities we are used to today.5) Productivity In other words, everything. :)And that is what MS is promising with XAML/Avalon, and even adds to it.
    Of course they are promising everything. That's what they and every other software company has been doing every since. I don't blame them. But you have to look at what it really is that they are promoting and what it means. XAML is a planned XML based UI description language. Very similar to what XUL has been for years. I like it and I don't doubt that everyone will be doing something very similar. I just wonder why MS needs that. Don't they have visual form designers that are so much more productive than coding UIs? I mean that's what we're told, isn't it? Or is there something wrong with the VB way of doing things?

    One other idea they are promoting is the 'smart client'. They claim to have made application deployment easier (I don't doubt that because it'd be hard to think of a worse nightmare than what they did with COM component registration in the past). Anyway, they go on to say that: "One obvious but critical advantage that smart client applications have over browser-based applications is the capability to work offline." OK, but to work offline, you need to have data available to work with. So what they are suggesting is not only distribution of applications but also distribution of data. Everybody who has ever worked on data replication and re-synchronisation, long running transactions, versioning and all the stuff that ensues, will no undoubtedly agree that these are hard problems from a design standpoint. The distribution of static application code artifacts is really the easy part there. You'd have to have persistent message queues, database replication and so on every client and you have to have people who understand distributed architectures. Most of the DBMS replication models I know of, leave important problems unresolved. What do you do, for example, if you have offline data on a PC, while the data model on the server side is modified?

    So clearly, smart clients need extremely smart and extremely expensive developers and consultants. Good for us. Bad for the companies that employ us. Believe me, IT departments won't do that because they don't have these really smart people available and they don't want to pay for consultants just to make a supposedly super-productive MS environment work. So smart clients will end up as nothing more than ordinary fat clients with a slightly improved deployment model.

    The systems management problems that come with such an architecture are also quite significant and are not addressed in their deployment model. Just think about the security implications of having bits and pieces of data lying around in caches on disconnected PCs all over the place. And lets not forget that corporations have to deal with generations of client installations at the same time. If Microsoft this year comes up with a really good idea in terms of client side deployment and you deploy it on all clients, they will inevitably come up with the next really good idea next year and all these really good ideas start to pile up again on millions of corporate PCs and conspire to create a really big systems management nightmare. If I was a CIO, I would try to avoid this situation at all cost.
  74. Alexander: "Of course they are promising everything"

    Rolf : "And of course Microsoft always deliver"

    Alexander: "data replication and re-synchronisation"

    Replication and synchronization happens to be a specialty of mine that is one of the reasons I never use O/R. Whatever "framework", I need to generate this audit-trail file: id, tblname, datetime, userid, groupid, fldtype, beforevalue, aftervalue.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  75. Whatever "framework", I need to generate this audit-trail file: id, tblname,
    >datetime, userid, groupid, fldtype, beforevalue, aftervalue.

    Thats the way you implement your audit-trails? Really?
  76. my wish list[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: We are so easily spoiled, we wants,

    1) No installation concerns
    2) Complete inter-application isolation
    3) Full desktop application functionality
    4) AND all the browser capabilities we are used to today.
    5) Productivity


    I would add:

    6) Supports bluetooth
    7) Enables grid computing
    8) Comes with rich UI support
    9) Fully HTML compliant
    10) Deploys to watches, cell phones, PC, notebook, handheld, and mainframe
    11) Requires less than 10KB to run, but scales up to support terabyte databases
    12) Interoperates with everything using all available integration and messaging technologies
    13) It's free
    14) It's easy to learn
    15) It's future-proof

    So, when you find that technology, let me know.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  77. something to hold on to[ Go to top ]

    Hi Cameron,

    I am glad you are still your good old self! It is comforting to know that it is at least something that is constant in this ever changing world. You may even become a proverb!

    "If hell freezes or Sun publish a J2EE TPC benchmark or Cameron changes his ways".

    What triggered you off this time? Hmm, can I presume you didn't take lightly that IIS is more than twice as used as Apache in the "Java de facto standard world? :)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  78. On the other hand, Microsoft has fewer interfaces and expects to be the one any only provider of various pieces of functionality. Without writing wrapper interfaces, it's a pain to plug a different implemetation in.
    That, an amazingly overzealous use of the sealed keyword means that in many cases you are screwed if you want to extend the behaviour.
    3. Assembly dependence vs Classpath. This is no unnecessary. It makes it so painful to reorganize classes into different collections (maybe an assembly is too big and needs to be split). Java does much better in just making the runtime resolve the location of a class.
    Although I tend to agree - I prefer the simpler, low-tech java approach, think of all the times you have had a NoClassDefFoundError/ClassNotFoundException - and had to guess what jar that missing class is in....
  79. I wholly agree about the problems with Microsoft's avoidance of interfaces. THey provide a lot of useful classes but they're often not useful in the ways you would like, or they're not exactly the right implementation you need. Compare Java collections to .NET's. The only thing .NET has in its favor is the "foreach" syntax, which Java will have shortly as well. The only collection interface MS has is ICollection, which is rather awkward to implement. They are also missing the sophistication of the Java collections interfaces (e.g., there's no concept of "Set", which is a useful interface). The IO classes are also somewhat confused and lack interface usage. THe simple fact is, it is much easier to program to interfaces than classes, especially when default, useful implementations are provided.

    I do not agree, however, with your criticism of assemblies. The assembly concept is a different one from Java but it is not necessarily worse. It's only bad when you expect it to work like Java. Assemblies provide some interesting class loading possibilities, and they offer some extremely useful functions. For example, it is extremely easy to load an assembly in code and scan it for specific implementations of an interface. This is useful if you want to have a drop-in plugin directory, where you drop in assembly files and your application can find plugin interface implementations and make them available for use. The same thing is MUCH harder in Java (in fact, I've yet to see it done well; if anyone knows how to scan a Jar for impls of an interface, let me know!). That's because the jar is simply a bundle. The classloader concepts don't make it easy to find things in the classpath; they can only detect if they're missing. Again, I could be wrong, but that's my experience.

    Also, have you ever used NUnit as opposed to JUnit? It's much slicker in a lot of ways, and part of that is because of what you can do with dynamic class discovery in assemblies. You open up assemblies or projects in NUnit, rather than tell it explicitly what classes to test. There's nothing built into JUnit to do that because it's harder to do (though some IDEs can do it).
  80. The same thing is MUCH harder in Java (in fact, I've yet to see it done well; if anyone knows how to scan a Jar for impls of an interface, let me know!).
    You can scan jar/zip files with java.util.zip.* API, there is no problems to parse class file too, see libraries like BCEL,ASM.
  81. Having seen what Java has done wrong and done right, .NET is a viable competitor to Java. However, being pro-Java, there are a couple known issues I have:1. This is more of a philosophical issue. By default, Java puts most functionality behind an interface (javax.sql, org.w3c.dom, Swing data models). And despite having default implementations of these interfaces, Java almost EXPECTS other implementations to be created and have the need to easily plug in. On the other hand, Microsoft has fewer interfaces and expects to be the one any only provider of various pieces of functionality. Without writing wrapper interfaces, it's a pain to plug a different implemetation in.2. EXE's and DLL's vs JAR Files? Why do we have to have a special class collection to create an executable? Everything should've been generic assembly files with a default class built into the MS version of a manifest.3. Assembly dependence vs Classpath. This is no unnecessary. It makes it so painful to reorganize classes into different collections (maybe an assembly is too big and needs to be split). Java does much better in just making the runtime resolve the location of a class.
    I have mixed feelings about core libraries like XML support embedded in interfaces. The advantage is of course that if you need a specific implementation, for example because you only handle very big XML files with big chunks of raw data, you can do it and you use the standard interface everybody knows. But then again, I'm not really sure that's interesting, because in most cases, the specific implementation you need to do needs also to extend, or change, the set of functions, thus the interface.

    I'll take on example with the XML libraries; in java standard interfaces, when you have a DOM document, you can't do selectSingleNode(String xpathExpression) or selectNodes(String xpathExpression), but this is really, really incredibly useful. Knowing that it is incredibly useful, many XML implementations provide it, but in a proprietary way, which defeats the purpose of the interface. I can give another example with nanoXML, which is a very small XML parser intended for applets; of course, it doesn't implement everything in the XML APIs, because even if you just throw an exception for every non implemented method, the resulting jar file is n times bigger! It's as difficult to define an all-purpose interface set as to define an all-purpose class set.

    So my conclusion is that with MS, you are locked because you depend on their classes; with Sun and Java, you are locked because you depend on the way they define their interfaces. Though one can argue that they define the interfaces with the JCP :-), but in the end, you're stuck again, somewhere else.

    Peace

    Francois
  82. Agree[ Go to top ]

    So my conclusion is that with MS, you are locked because you depend on their classes; with Sun and Java, you are locked because you depend on the way they define their interfaces. Though one can argue that they define the interfaces with the JCP :-), but in the end, you're stuck again, somewhere else.
    I strongly agree with your point

    I would like to hear more opinions about the abovesaid point of Francois
  83. The microsoft agenda flaw is IMHO the worse of them, since .Net has some serious strings attached, you just have to see the Yuck-on, I mean, Yukon and Widbey release delay until 2005, and how this may affect Visual Studio and all the rest. Just imagine if Borland would have the chance of releasing an IDE using some new .Net functionality _before_ MS does it for VisualStudio... MS could just hold the release of .Net until VS has all the upgrades needed to leverage on new functionalities, and the other IDEs would always be left behind... In the end, it promotes vendor lock-in, which may be regarded as flaw.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  84. I'm sorry; for most businesses, desktop applications aren't interesting. Put your business logic on the server side and use the Web for your delivery platform.
    To me, this seems like quite a foolish statement.
     The logic being on the server side doesn't mean that the client is not a desktop application - with all the attendant benefits of that approach. Microsoft, perhaps inspired by Mozilla XUL, Macromedia Flex, XWT or many other such projects, is introducing XAML to .Net (LongHorn). Meaning that you will easily be able to create rich desktop applications that interact with web servers for business logic.
     The java response to this should be to create something just as good for the java platform. Not to say "desktop applications aren't interesting". Sun famously espoused "thin clients" in the past. It is a shame that the java GUI technologies AWT/Swing have not been broadly sucessful so far.

     Java needs to do desktop GUIs better. I would like to see a XUL-like standard specification in Java for creating GUIs, particularly with thin clients in mind. One that would allow you to choose the implementor to use e.g. Swing or SWT. There are various projects out there: "xmlface" to name one that are doing something in this area.

    -f
  85. RE:
    "Java needs to do desktop GUIs better. I would like to see a XUL-like standard specification in Java for creating GUIs, particularly with thin clients in mind. One that would allow you to choose the implementor to use e.g. Swing or SWT"

    Take a look at www.insitechinc.com. RAD, Pure Java, thin-client tool for Rich GUI on Java.

    I think you'll be impressed !! Already has a plug-in to all leading IDEs: Eclipse, NetBeans, JDeveloper and JBuilder...did I miss one ??
  86. Just as another $.02, having used C#/.NET a bit, it is basically as technically sound as Java, and cleaner in a few areas as the result of coming later.

    However, as a proprietary product ("proprietary" not as a slur, but simply an statement of fact,) it is not anywhere near as attractive as a de facto standard (Java) that has almost complete industry buy-in and involvement.

    .NET won't "go away" because Microsoft has the funds to make it a successful development and deployment platform for Windows-only software, both desktop and server-based. However, it is in the interests of too many companies that Java succeed for .NET to actually displace Java on a significant scale.

    And, on the off chance that I'm wrong, it will truly mark the end of the open and competitive software industry.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  87. However, as a proprietary product ("proprietary" not as a slur, but simply an statement of fact,) it is not anywhere near as attractive as a de facto standard (Java) that has almost complete industry buy-in and involvement..
    Do you really believe that Java is non-proprietary? If Sun deceides that the source for jdk 1.5 is no longer available and you have to pay a licence for the use of it, do you really have a choice to change to another vendor? Of course not. Can Sun do this? Of course they can, they own ALL the rights for JAVA.
  88. Lets talk technology[ Go to top ]

    Forget moral and ethical. Lets talk technology. First is there a challenge for java language ? Why are we all bickering about java presentation. First of all there are different sorts of presentation. But java currently has 3 apis, to manage presentation (SWT, AWT and Swing). And more apis will come in without $$$ attached to it. Developers choose the best. With .Net Microsoft takes the decision for you. Same in the server side.

    Come on.. how many times we face a problem deep in our development that .net cannot fix and Microsoft support sleeps over it when our IT shops spend all the money for .net magic. How many times our network admins have sleepless nights because of security holes that microsoft forgot to fix. How many anti viruses..? how many fix packs..? how many memory leaks..? .Net is just a proprietary promise. Java is a portable reality. No technology that is flawed can stay in the market for long. I agree MS windows and MS office is a success. But that does no mean java in eterprise computing will die.
  89. Aaah, Mr. Bray had to come up with something that would stir the soup. Understandable. People seem to critize his comments because there was no technical 'proof' to back his comments up, but I do not feel the 'proof' is a requirement to post an opinion.

    Don't you see a trend in the IT industry? There is a lot of commodization going on. There is commodization of hardware (PC), and now the operating system (Linux). There is commodization of typical software like databases, office applications and so on. There is a revolution going on, right now, that is so big that you can't really see it (can't see the forest from the trees?).

    Microsoft is fighting this by bundling everything together as a big tarball to escape commodization - now media players and web browsers are equal to an operating system, soon databases are built into the operating system (the new Windows file system). This is the strategy that will turn against Microsoft when the times run by the slow moving tarball. Microsoft has cash to stall, give things for 'free', run legal battles using 3rd parties, and so on, but nothing is forever. The irony is that all these antitrust cases might be the saviour of Microsoft.

    So... Java is here to stay, and it will beat the crap out of .NET on the long run. That's my opinion.
  90. " I do not know the exact ways of "Software Fashion", but I know at least that it last comes to the former countries of East-Europa and in Latin-America. And I can assure you, Java/J2EE is not "Hot". "

    We didn't like Soviets then, we don't like MS now
  91. favorite quote[ Go to top ]

    I prefer markets to monocultures, I think that when you’re continually being sued by elected governments it’s indicative of an ethics problem
  92. Slashdot have an interesting thread,
    Coding the Future Linux Desktop

    Java, Mono, or C++?
    http://ometer.com/desktop-language.html

    and the discussion, here,
    http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/04/03/17/1335210.shtml?tid=126&tid=131&tid=156&tid=189

    Do we not live in interesting times. That is what I call a major decision, Hitchcock can go to bed..

    I was stunned that Netscape did not provide support for Microsoft ActiveX/Com technology..And the new Mozilla do the same thing..incredible.

    And now they are screaming for war again: "Do not use the superior Open Source .NET clone!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  93. great discussion.
    and we all win from the competition between sun and ms. so let them compete
  94. Lean vs. behemoth[ Go to top ]

    I sold a product where I told my customers: "My product is lean, the competition is a behemoth".

    The competition said: "We are full-featured; choose what you want to use."

    The customer saw us as "speaking with one voice". The customer concluded that the competition was better. Some still bought my product because it was cheaper and they really didn't want to pay for all that other cool stuff <sigh>.

    Felicity
  95. Lean vs. behemoth[ Go to top ]

    I sold a product where I told my customers: "My product is lean, the competition is a behemoth". The competition said: "We are full-featured; choose what you want to use."The customer saw us as "speaking with one voice". The customer concluded that the competition was better. Some still bought my product because it was cheaper and they really didn't want to pay for all that other cool stuff <sigh>. Felicity
    Win some lose some. That is the way it will go. I am working on a lean and mean product right now. The competition has a "full featured" product. But there are enough who just want parts and since the competition built theirs monolithically, there is room to compete and grow. Cause not everyone has money to burn.