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News: Gartner reports Java Skills Gap

  1. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap (86 messages)

    Gartner has released a report that claims there is a large skills gap for Java developers, and this is creating a large back-log in projects. ITWeb takes this information and concludes that a) It is healthy to be a Java developer, and b) various tools are trying to bridge the gap.
    Gartner says only 32% of the 2.5 million Java developers in the world have genuine knowledge, which means there is a serious lack of high-level development skills.
    Read more in Java's skills gap

    Threaded Messages (86)

  2. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Well, cutting through the self-serving testimonial of the gentleman from Compuware, this article can impart a few pretty useful perspectives:

    1) the Java/J2EE world is not, nor has it ever been, immune to the "paper tiger" syndrome of technology adopters (i.e., those that certify and pontificate without any practical experience to back it up)

    2) there's apparently a lot of work to go around for those that have the actual skills

    3) tools WILL continue to play a vital role in the evolution of J2EE systems as we move forward

    The inevitable question becomes then (other than "How the heck does Gartner quantify this?" :-):

    Who currently has all the knowledge and where will the growth sector form to fill the gap?
  3. Just another MDA pitch[ Go to top ]

    The problem exists (skills gap) but MDA is definitely not the solution. Complex tasks are complex for a reason and need complex skills.
  4. In other news...[ Go to top ]

    ...Gartner reports that there is no gap in the amount of revenue they're deriving from Compuware.
  5. Marketing hype, not analysis[ Go to top ]

    The rest of this article, after the first paragraph, is marketing hype for Compuware's OptimalJ. Can someone provide a URL to the Gartner report that claims to show a "serious lack of high-level development skills" ?

    The Gartner report sounds suspiciously like the obligatory mantra we constantly hear from managers: There is (or will be) a shortage of engineers.

    Where are the job openings for this back log of projects that need Java developers with "genuine knowledge"? And what is "genuine knowledge"?
  6. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    I do agree with what Gartner is saying that only 32% of Java geeks truely have the skills to cut it however the article seems to point to tools as our solutions. Tools do help but we simply need to get smarter. Also was this author ITWeb being sponsered by OptimalJ?
  7. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    I agree:

    1) I want a link to the original Gartner study

    2) I am getting tired of Compuware's constant attempts at trying to plug their product in such dishonest manners. I am not adverse to advertising but these guys have become masters at disguising their ads in what looks like real articles.

    Enough already.

    --
    Cedric
  8. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Cedric,

    This article was not "bought" or "sponsored" by Compuware, and I think it's unfortunate that you're characterizing it that way. It's pretty typical for software vendors to talk to the press about their products, but that doesn't make the articles that result from the interviews "advertising".

    If you have any further questions about Compuware's advertising practices, please feel to contact me directly.

    Regards,
    Mike Burba
    Product Manager
    Compuware OptimalJ
  9. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Cedric,This article was not "bought" or "sponsored" by Compuware, and I think it's unfortunate that you're characterizing it that way.
    I never said such a thing. I am just observing that this article contains one paragraph summarizing the result of a Gartner study (which nobody seems to be able to find) and that the rest of the article is nothing but quotes from a Compuware product manager.

    This particular article is actually explicitly showing its Compuware bias, so that's okay. Maybe some blame should be lied upon TSS for pointing to it instead of the original Gartner study (Dion, where is it?).

    --
    Cedric
  10. Gartner study[ Go to top ]

    I did some research and I didn't find this study anywhere. The last study that Gartner posted about Java was on February 25th (http://www3.gartner.com/7_search/Search2Frame.jsp?op=10)

    The few references to this study on the Web do just like TSS: they point at the ITWeb article but never to anything on Gartner's Web site.

    If this study is indeed fictive... well, draw your own conclusions.

    --
    Cedric
  11. Gartner study[ Go to top ]

    Maybe this is it:

    Predicts 2004: MDSFs Offset J2EE Complexity, 22 December 2003, by Michael J. Blechar and Mark Driver

    "Model-driven service frameworks with architecture-based code generators will become as prevalent as traditional fourth-generation languages were in the 1990s and help less skilled developers build J2EE and .NET applications."
  12. Possible Gartner reference[ Go to top ]

    I did some research and I didn't find this study anywhere. The last study that Gartner posted about Java was on February 25th (http://www3.gartner.com/7_search/Search2Frame.jsp?op=10)The few references to this study on the Web do just like TSS: they point at the ITWeb article but never to anything on Gartner's Web site.If this study is indeed fictive... well, draw your own conclusions.-- Cedric
    The research I did yesterday didn't turn up a source, either. However, I did turn up quotes from 2000 by a Gartner rep with similar breakdowns (along with a projected figure of 2.5 million "developers" by 2004).

    I'm wondering if this very old quote is the basis of the leading paragraph in the story.
  13. Gartner Study missing...[ Go to top ]

    Yeah Dion, where the hell is it?
  14. What jobs, Mike?[ Go to top ]

    Mike, where are the job postings for the backlog of Java projects that your sales director claims exists?

    With all due respect, this sounds like deceptive marketing to me.
  15. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    This article was not "bought" or "sponsored" by Compuware, and I think it's unfortunate that you're characterizing it that way. It's pretty typical for software vendors to talk to the press about their products, but that doesn't make the articles that result from the interviews "advertising".
    I wonder what sort of a retainer your press agency is on. I have to side with Cedric here, OptimalJ is a good product be you're not doing yourselves any favours with this sort of "marketing/advertising". Perhaps it was just billed wrongly, I wouldn't have even mentioned Gartner if I'd billed it.

    -John-
  16. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Tools do help but we simply need to get smarter.
    That's an interesting way to address the cost of intellectual capital: simply tell developers "to get smarter". Very insightful, though quite different from the market-proven automation/labor substitution curve taught in macro-econ 101.

    As much as some folk might love vi and javac, at some point an IDE makes competitive sense. If productivity suggests I use an IDE, then it makes more sense to learn one whose default behavior is to actually produce something that works.

    It's an amusing luddite defense mechanism to bash MDA's tool leader, but has anyone actually used OptimalJ and failed? That would be an opinion I want to hear, rather than Cedric gassing about how irreplaceable his premium skill is. The least useful thing to chat about is the protection of Cedric's comfort zone -- his expensive status quo. The last thing Cedric wants is common developers being able to compete with his uncommon productivity.
  17. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    That would be an opinion I want to hear, rather than Cedric gassing about how irreplaceable his premium skill is. The least useful thing to chat about is the protection of Cedric's comfort zone -- his expensive status quo. The last thing Cedric wants is common developers being able to compete with his uncommon productivity.
    :-)

    Well, by your own definition, all I have to do is use this tool myself and I will keep my edge over the rest of the world, right?

    It's really too bad you choose to resort to ad hominem attacks of this kind, because I actually happen to agree with the first part of your post. Let's try to keep this professional and ethical, please? (and this request applies to Compuware as well).

    --
    Cedric
  18. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Let's try to keep this professional and ethical, please?
    You called Compuware advertising dishonest and provided no evidence and little explanation. As for professionalism and ethics, do you know the origin of the word 'sabotage'? Hint: its history is very similar to Cedric's conduct in this thread.
  19. Tools do help but we simply need to get smarter.
    That's an interesting way to address the cost of intellectual capital: simply tell developers "to get smarter". Very insightful, though quite different from the market-proven automation/labor substitution curve taught in macro-econ 101.As much as some folk might love vi and javac, at some point an IDE makes competitive sense. If productivity suggests I use an IDE, then it makes more sense to learn one whose default behavior is to actually produce something that works.It's an amusing luddite defense mechanism to bash MDA's tool leader, but has anyone actually used OptimalJ and failed? That would be an opinion I want to hear, rather than Cedric gassing about how irreplaceable his premium skill is. The least useful thing to chat about is the protection of Cedric's comfort zone -- his expensive status quo. The last thing Cedric wants is common developers being able to compete with his uncommon productivity.
    There is another side of the question too: software development is mainly a creative work, where ideas and logic plays a central role at almost anything we do. No tool will ever replace this, instead they tend to limit our choices and freedom. I am not saying all tools limit us, but in order to automate things, usually tools take the path of least resistence. But there are exceptional situations where these "shortcuts" just won't work, and that's when the clever developer will be demanded. If we take things to a extreme, and one day all developers would work only with automatic tools, whenever a exceptional situation would arise, no one would be able to fix it. Most Ex-VB developers jumping at .Net are facing this situation right now: they are facing new issues with OO, frameworks, many dificult choices (to cache or not? to distribute or not? use O/R mapping or not? develop a full domain model or stick to rowsets? etc.) that they were not used to make. They have a greater freedom now, but they just don't know what to do with that. And no tool will help them regarding these, it's up to themselves, and no drag-n-drop component will save them.

    I igree IDEs are the path to productivity. But I don't think they will replace criativity and logic. And I won't like if they limit my creativity too.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  20. I suspect that this thread is going to degrade to flames because we don't have any definition of "Java Skills."

    Interestingly, I recently asked a group of fellow programmers how they determine whether a colleague is a good programmer, and, more importantly, how does their manager determine who is a good programmer. Nobody really knew of any "best practices" in hiring.

    My point is, if our peers have difficulty determining who is and isn't a skilled programmer, how is Gartner supposed to? (Never mind the pointy-haired bosses.)
  21. ... and, more importantly, how does their manager determine who is a good programmer. Nobody really knew of any "best practices" in hiring.
    Maybe this article will interest you: http://www.artima.com/wbc/interprog.html

    I don't know how my boss knows if I'm good or not. He asks my supervisors about me. Maybe he uses spyware, checks the mails? Who knows. Since he can't code Java and is not in the same office like me, he cannot really judge if I'm good or not. Fortunately he gave me a pay increase last time.
  22. ... and, more importantly, how does their manager determine who is a good programmer. Nobody really knew of any "best practices" in hiring.
    Maybe this article will interest you: http://www.artima.com/wbc/interprog.htmlI don't know how my boss knows if I'm good or not. He asks my supervisors about me. Maybe he uses spyware, checks the mails? Who knows. Since he can't code Java and is not in the same office like me, he cannot really judge if I'm good or not. Fortunately he gave me a pay increase last time.
    Hey, that's what processes are for (well, not only that but...): we need to collect data about productivity (function points / week), quality (defects injected / function point), and the like. That's how we know who is good and who is not, in a practical way, and not by guessings. You can apply that to any programming language and platform. Just make sure you check the collected data against an uniform group, that is, confront collected data of people working at the same or similar systems, same platform and language.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  23. Hey, that's what processes are for (well, not only that but...): we need to collect data about productivity (function points / week), quality (defects injected / function point), and the like. That's how we know who is good and who is not, in a practical way, and not by guessings. You can apply that to any programming language and platform. Just make sure you check the collected data against an uniform group, that is, confront collected data of people working at the same or similar systems, same platform and language.Regards,Henrique Steckelberg
    Nothing is routine in our project. So its difficult to compare. And its doesn't only count how fast someone has coded something or how few bugs there have been. It counts also how creative he is, his ideas for improving things. For example I don't like yes-sayers. If I were a boss, I wouldn't pay always-yes-sayers very much money. And quality of work does not simply mean fast and few bugs. Quality is more than that. This job is team work. If such data are collected this would introduce a high competition between the workers. The competition is already high. This would totally kill the team spirit I belive. Just a few ideas about this topic. A shot in the bush with a shotgun.
  24. Nothing is routine in our project. So its difficult to compare. And its doesn't only count how fast someone has coded something or how few bugs there have been. It counts also how creative he is, his ideas for improving things. For example I don't like yes-sayers. If I were a boss, I wouldn't pay always-yes-sayers very much money. And quality of work does not simply mean fast and few bugs. Quality is more than that. This job is team work. If such data are collected this would introduce a high competition between the workers. The competition is already high. This would totally kill the team spirit I belive. Just a few ideas about this topic. A shot in the bush with a shotgun.
    A bit off topic... ok, totally off-topic, but this is exactly why software development is still considered at ist infancy. No building project is the same also, no ship construction is the same also, no book pressing is the same also, but they all get nicely (well, almost all) from begin to end as a project. Why can't software be the same? We still have a long way to go. But don't despair. It means we still have a lot to do before buttons and dials replace us... ;)

    I recommend some books about the subject, while we are at it:
    A Discipline for Software Engineering by Watts S. Humphrey
    Managing the Software Process by Watts S. Humphrey

    Sorry about the off-topic post,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  25. One thing I'd like to try during an interview is to ask the candidate to read a fairly short technical essay, perhaps an article from TheServerSide, and ask him/her to synopsize it and perhaps comment on it.

    I find that often people don't read even short e-mails with technical content. One co-worker skimmed the subject of a message a few weeks ago and thought to himself, "Oh, he seems to have fixed the problem -- so I don't have to read this". Then he went and undid my fix!

    So I'd identify reading as a pretty basic and underestimated skill.
  26. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Mouse can help to draw code, but how it can increase my skills ?
    How programmer without skills can draw better code than skilled programmer with mouse or keyboard ?
    I think it is better to buy a book than a toy.
  27. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    It's an amusing luddite defense mechanism to bash MDA's tool leader, but has anyone actually used OptimalJ and failed?
    Cedric a luddite now that _is_ amusing :-)
  28. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    ... however the article seems to point to tools as our solutions. Tools do help but we simply need to get smarter.
    A company sold a ERP framework to our company. They said it is easy to use for "the average developer". EJB is too complex for the average developer they said. So they created that framework. The fact is, that their framework is as complex as EJB, but complex in a different way (and much more buggy). One complexity has been replaced by another.

    Here is what they promised, but in my eyes its nothing but shameless lies:
    Developments based on JAVATM/J2EETM, however, are very complex and might be difficult to master for less experienced developers. [...] This framework reduces complexity considerably and makes it easy to master also for less proficient developers. Thus, developers can concentrate exclusively on programming the application without being troubled by basic technology problems. [...] A standardized development process with tools and wizards for automatic code generation lets newcomers familiarize themselves with the framework easily and be productive after just a short period of time. [...] ... is exceptionally well suited for developing large, long-term software systems, which are continually adapted and extended in individual projects by various teams changing over the years.
    And their biggest and most shameless lie is:
    With its architecture and the use of open standards, however, it does not produce any proprietary dependencies.
    Using their framework produces high proprietary dependencies to the company who created the framework. They replaced open standards like persistance, GUI, component model and validation by closed proprietary technical solutions. And they are the only ones who can do the support and who provide the documents. Their is no "community" outside.

    Because of this experience I really hate those IT salesmen people who lie absolutely shamelessly about their product. A high know how is so important! But there are always such charismatic salesmen with their false promises and IT bosses who believe in them. Then the bosses buy such frameworks which cause more problems than they promise to solve. In the worst case, the project fails.
  29. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Because of this experience I really hate those IT salesmen people who lie absolutely shamelessly about their product.
    And yet you don't even care enough to mention the vendor's name. Why do you protect it? Are you so unconcerned for our trade's future? I apologize for not being intimately familiar with victim psychology. Perhaps you can explain.
  30. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    And yet you don't even care enough to mention the vendor's name. Why do you protect it? Are you so unconcerned for our trade's future? I apologize for not being intimately familiar with victim psychology. Perhaps you can explain.
    JCoffee.
  31. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    I disagree. My own estimates put the required skillset at 36% of all Java coders, but my gut tells me that it's only 25.7%
  32. Is there a UML gap?[ Go to top ]

    If there is a shortage of Java developers, what about MDA/UML developers - are there more of them out there. ;-)
  33. is it too easy?[ Go to top ]

    I know people because of the relative simplicity
    of java, good IDEs, and the availability of
    lots of good books, who can actually be quite
    productive without knowing almost any computer
    science.

    This was surprising to me because i would be
    dealing with people who could produce quite
    sophisticated applications, yet hit a wall
    when it turned out they didn't know quite
    basic things. And explaining even basic
    things is torture because they have no
    background and they really have no interest
    in knowing. This is both a good and bad thing.
  34. I have read this site for years now and never got the courage to pipe in. Here me out before you barbecue me.

    I consider myself at the top of my craft and I work my tush off. I am one of the lucky ones that was able to adjust to the massive down sizing in projects due to the dot.bomb bust. I humbly submit that I have done better than most. But when I hear reports of how there is a shortage of skills here I get this visceral reaction and think .. yeah right. I look at the vast wasteland of colleagues and peers who changed carriers or are still looking for jobs in IT. It makes me wonder, are most contractors and IT people that inept in this country. I think not. I will grant that there was a lot of resume fluffing back in the dot.bomb days.. and maybe a 20% of people were useless. I am torn. On the one hand I love the principals of a market econonmy.. supply and demand (cheaper better .. go for it.). On the other hand my heart goes out to all those IT folks trying to feed there families. All the while hearing corporate America shout we did have enought qualified people here. We need to outsource. We need H1B visas to help us thru the crunch.. Total BS. I am not saying that H1B visas are not qualified and capable. But for peats sakes call it what it is. You want (better cheaper faster). Dont feed everyone this BS that you can't find talent here.

    So.. to sum it up.. this reports seems to be like more corporate bull and justification that lacks the spine to just say " We want cheaper labor" Call it what it is and have the spine to say so.

    I apologize to any H1B's that I may have offended.. Not my intent.. everyone deserves to make a living. May beef is the misrepresentation given that these skill are not available here.
  35. Agree with you[ Go to top ]

    Sorry this is off track the topic but,

    I agree with you, and want to clarify one thing. H1-B's are not cheaper labor. They have to be paid same as any US worker. This is certified by department of labor by verifying the job description, wage codes and minimum salaries. Only thing h1-b's cause is due to easy availability, they hinder the pay growth in general.

    On the other hand Off-shoring is cheaper initially. It will be couple of years before the big guys see whats involved in real offshoring. Its low quality, lack of visibility into what they are doing and the time zone difference with all this networking, new age technology BS.. is not so easy!

    Wait for 2 years or so and you can see that off-shoring is not after all sooo lucrative.
  36. ahahahahah[ Go to top ]

    H1-B's are not cheaper labor. They have to be paid same as any US worker. This is certified by department of labor by verifying the job description, wage codes and minimum salaries.
    That's the way it is supposed to work. But do you really think it works that way? It doesn't. H1-Bs often get treated terribly by their employer. The pay is often poor and the H1-B folks have no recourse.
  37. I have read this site for years now and never got the courage to pipe in. Here me out before you barbecue me.
    It all starts with one post and then another and another......

    Welcome Ken -;)
  38. American IT workers, especially programmers, are paid too much anyway. There's a reason why medical doctors and engineers (real ones) are paid higher than your average worker. One can't just decide "I think I'll make myself into a doctor/engineer." You actually have to go to school and study for years.

    If anybody -- and I do mean anybody (journalists, musicians, college drop-outs, janitors, you name it) -- can be a programmer, then maybe your skills aren't that hot, are they? By the way, I'm a B.S. Computer Science graduate myself, and I also consider myself at the top of my craft!
  39. American IT workers, especially programmers, are paid too much anyway.
    Steve Balmer, Microsoft CEO agrees. A global wage equilibrium is inescapable at this point. So I googled and found a very comforting piece about talented folk being paid less. It's a U.Indiana Law School report about lawyers:

    "But perhaps less predictably, the high-earning practitioners in large private practices report the lowest average job satisfaction while the lower-earning types of practice all report higher average job satisfaction..."

    Maybe wishes do come true. Do you think so?
    One can't just decide "I think I'll make myself into a doctor/engineer." You actually have to go to school and study for years. If anybody -- and I do mean anybody (journalists, musicians, college drop-outs, janitors, you name it) -- can be a programmer, then maybe your skills aren't that hot, are they?
    I once worked at a software consultancy whose CTO used to be a nurse. I love IT's job mobility. I suppose it gives a boost to the software market.
  40. Kenneth, there's a big difference between H1-Bs and offshoring. I have many collegues who were on H1-Bs. Most of them are now US Citizens and permanent residents. A few are still on H1-B but they're on their way to becoming American citizens.

    The overwhelming majority of these folks lived here for an average of 10 years. They came as students and were hired after they graduated from American universities. They make as much money as anybody else, if not more, because they're very skilled, smart, and highly educated (most have Master's and Ph.D. in computer science). They share the American Dream with the rest of us, pay their taxes in full, and spend like any upper middle class American.

    It's a myth that companies hire H1-B workers because they cost less. In fact, H1-B workers cost an employer MORE money than American workers because, in addition to incurring the same taxing and benefit package (medical, etc.) costs, the employer has to pay additional fees for the labor department, not to mention legal expenses. They're hired simply because of their skills.

    On the other hand, offshoring is taking jobs from American AND H1-B workers to impoverished Third World countries. Not only is it hurting the middle class economically and further inflating the executive management's bonuses and salaries, but it's also draining away intellectual capital and skills.

    An offshore engineer would happily accept work for 10% of what an American or H1-B worker make because in his or her country the cost of living is 5% of what it is here in America.

    American and H1-B workers are put at an extreme disadvantage because you can't complete with someone demanding 90% less than what you make, even if you're more knowlegeable and skilled. The economics are overwhelimingly against you, especially when you figure in taxes and other benefits you're costing your employer.

    I know a couple of H1-B workers who got laid off with their American coworkers because their company decided to offshore an entire department.
  41. outsourcing[ Go to top ]

    In the land of capitalism, money is power and investors are Gods. What these Gods want? Ofcourse, more power! They say, outsoursing is saving at least 50% of cost so,here are some solutions to the problem:
    1. Let's accept 1/2 of salary.
    2. Work for 16 hours a day.
    3. Be ready to pay doulble for products.
    4. Throw out capitalism.
  42. outsourcing[ Go to top ]

    5. do it better.
  43. Gatner very reliable[ Go to top ]

    I really trust Gartner and believe everything their experts say.
    I think they are MBAs.

    Felicity
  44. outsourcing[ Go to top ]

    1. Let's accept 1/2 of salary. 2. Work for 16 hours a day. 3. Be ready to pay doulble for products. 4. Throw out capitalism.
    As Juozas Baliuka wrote, 5. do it better.

    But I would also agree with solution number 4. Its off topic, but just watch the documentary "Roger & Me" of Michael Moore. The question is do we want to have few winners and many losers or many winners and few losers in our society? In future centuries people will be shocked about the American free capitalism and its poverty consequences like today we are shocked about Gladiator fights in ancient Rome or about slavery. If people accept everything, they deserve everything.
  45. "An offshore engineer would happily accept work for 10% of what an American or H1-B worker make because in his or her country the cost of living is 5% of what it is here in America."
    Few points..
    First off, dont believe any country (atleast today) takes up outsourcing for 5% or even 10% of US costs. It is probably more in the range of 30-40%.

    Secondly, this is pure economics at work. If you can get the same product/service for much cheaper price elsewhere, it wouldnt make much sense to go for a higher cost option. Would anyone consciously buy a US made toy that is 5 times the cost of a Chinese toy? Precisely the reason why most US retailers (and even toy majors) prefer China as a manufacturing base to US.

    Thirdly, the offshoring is not just for reasons of cost. There is also productivity that is a factor. If Asians in US are considered to be better programmers, isnt it logical to expect Asians in Asia to be even better?

    Fourth, offshoring is not exactly a new concept. It has been around for a very long time. When economy was doing well.. and when it wasnt. It is not that suddenly the CIOs discovered the "low cost" havens. It is just that it has now become a political issue- and hence significantly increased mainstream attention.

    It is a well known Economics principle that protectionism and stiffling free-market only hurts the economy in the long run- by promoting lower productivity and efficiencies. Economies have massive resilience- once some aspect moves out, something else better moves in. If toy manufacturing moved out, there is more emphasis in toy design and development in US now. Higher value job! Software development is outsourced, there would be more emphaiss on conceivit& solutions and in architecting and marketing the same. Just get teh development outsourced. For now atleast.

    Cheers,
    Ramesh
  46. "If Asians in US are considered to be better programmers, isnt it logical to expect Asians in Asia to be even better?
    I put aside the racial flavor of this passage and just to summarize.

    Sure, computers, programming, computational math were created by by "Asians in Asia" and in US.
    Operation systems, programming languages, databases, IDEs, browsers, word processors, spreadsheets were created by the same staff.
    OOP, RUP, design patters from them and there too.
    Internet, of course, stems from natural wisdom and racial superiority of these people.
    Open source software is developing by them (they easily agree on low wages up to the point to work without money) to demonstrate their superiority. It is Apache products, JBoss, Mozilla, ... thousands and thousands.

    If we check contributors on the open source project then we expect to see there almost 100% Asians from all over the world taking into account the fact existing way over one billion population in each India and China only.

    Check, for example, the list of contributors for Apache HTTP server (the best Web server on the Planet):
    http://httpd.apache.org/contributors
  47. Yep![ Go to top ]

    Those who invented Unix, Linux, Mac, NT, VAX, C, C++, Java, Pascal, COBOL, SmallTalk, Eiffel, LISP, Prolog, Algol, Basic, SQL & relational calculus, Perl, Python, regexes, OOP, AOP, COP, design patterns, UML, structured programming, HTML, XML, TCP/IP, HTTP, NNTP, and RDBMS/ODBMS are all Asians.

    In fact, the overwhelming majority of the ACM Turing Prize winners are Asians.
    http://www.acm.org/awards/taward.html

    Also, %99.99999999 of RFC authors are Asians.
    http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc-activeV.html

    OK, no offense to Asians, but I'm just making fun of that guy's racist statement that mixes up cheap quantity with high quality.
  48. Secondly, this is pure economics at work. If you can get the same product/service for much cheaper price elsewhere, it wouldnt make much sense to go for a higher cost option.
    You sound as a distinguished economist!
    The same "pure economics at work" created slavery. H1-B and offshoring have a lot in common with it.
    ... the "low cost" havens.
    Excellent! Sound like poverty paradise.
    Higher value job! Software development is outsourced, there would be more emphaiss on conceivit& solutions and in architecting and marketing the same. Just get teh development outsourced. For now atleast
    So, marketing is higher value job than software development. Brilliant insight!
    Is so why for now? For good!
    Just get teh development outsourced. For now atleast
    Definitely, we will fight for it. Say to this forum: Do you also want us to hang yourself? And also want us to spend our own money on ropes for this?
  49. cost[ Go to top ]

    I guess there is as much good asian programmers as in the rest of the world (also true for dumb programmers). It's curious to see this trend implying indians are so much better than the rest of the world for computing : another marketing tricks to justify offshoring.
    And as a matter of fact I'm waiting to see if offshoring is really cutting cost : I don't speak of immediate cost but the real cost coming from maintaining and evolving a critical application over years when developpers are so distant from customers. I've already seen many projects failing because of the lack of communication and misunderstandings between the people who need and the people who code even if both are in the same country...
    Quality always has a price but times are not for quality anymore, only mass production of less tham average products
  50. "An offshore engineer would happily accept work for 10% of what an American or H1-B worker make because in his or her country the cost of living is 5% of what it is here in America."Few points..First off, dont believe any country (atleast today) takes up outsourcing for 5% or even 10% of US costs. It is probably more in the range of 30-40%.
    Oh really? Check this out:

    http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/8263034.htm

    From the article:
    Many companies turn to India because its technology workers are comparatively cheap -- about one-ninth the cost of their U.S. counterparts, according to documents in a recent tax case involving the Indian software company Infosys Technologies.
    So for every US engineer, you can hire 10 Indian engineers. No wonder why US students are quiting engineering and computer science courses. How can you compete with this?

    I honestly wish I didn't take CS in college, because with the current trends, all the technical professions are gowing down the drain in this country.

    Not only the technical professions are getting destroyed, but also the creative professions. I heard on CNN today that Disney is offshoring its animation to India. When will this maddness stop?
  51. ". I heard on CNN today that Disney is offshoring its animation to India. When will this maddness stop?"
    Why would this be madness. How can anyone spending dollars justifying paying more for anything, when lower cost and equally good options are available? And then again, it is not at all practical to offshore all operations. Only some parts of the operations can be offshored.

    The noise on outsourcing/offshoring aside, the whole of IT & BPO job market in India is under 800,000 (built over 2 decades!). The job market in US is bad not because of Outsourcing- read some estimates put it at about 2.3million lost jobs- Given that the Indian IT industry has grown by not more than 100,000 jobs in past few years, the remaining 2.1+ million jobs are lost entirely due to the poor global economy.

    Just face the fact- Outsourcing or not, the job situation would not be any better! Until the economy improves!

    ps: My remarks earlier were not meant to be racial. Was just commenting on a point made in this thread that in US H1Bs are hired not because of cost, but because of comparable/better skills. And the same post argued that while H1B is OK, offshoring was not. Dont believe as a race Asians are any better. If we were, we would not be underdeveloped (centuries of colonial oppression notwithstanding!).
  52. My remarks earlier were not meant to be racial.
    Your previous posting is racial. It is here and everybody can see it for yourself. You so certain in your superiority that shamelessly recon that you can say whatever you want and without any grounds (just in addition to what already was listed count you racially prefer geniuses in Nobel Prize winners (http://www.almaz.com/nobel ), Fields medals awarded (http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Societies/FieldsMedal.html ), ... . and do not forget the size of your population).
  53. "Your previous posting is racial."

    It is a free world. You are free to interpret anyway. All I was commenting was on the Indian/Chinese presence in the IT scene.

    :-)
  54. It is a free world. You are free to interpret anyway. All I was commenting was on the Indian/Chinese presence in the IT scene.
    You wrote: "If Asians in US are considered to be better programmers, isn’t it logical to expect Asians in Asia to be even better"

    It is NOT "All I was commenting was on the Indian/Chinese presence in the IT scene".

    It is a clear statement claming superiority based on race.

    Moreover it is a false statement. Who considered? People, government? Scientific researches, psychology, medicine?

    You wrote: "It's a free world". First of all it does not mean that you can do whatever you want, for instance, promote racism. Second, it is not free everywhere in any reasonable sense.
  55. ". I heard on CNN today that Disney is offshoring its animation to India. When will this maddness stop?"Why would this be madness. How can anyone spending dollars justifying paying more for anything, when lower cost and equally good options are available?
    It's madness because the USA will become a third world country if all the manufacturing, engineering, and creative work is done somewhere else.

    Have you ever heard about customs and tariffs? And why you have to pay them?

    On one hand, the low wage labor is already taken by illegal aliens. On the other hand, all the middle class manufacturing, technical, and creative professions will be offshored, not to produce a better product, but, as someone already mentioned here, to produce a mediocre, less-than-average product by brute force numbers for cheap.

    The other day I heard that CNET's Builder.com will offshore all work jobs to India. So what jobs are gonna be left here? Lawyers, salesmen, marketers, executives, and doctors?

    I spent all my life (and I'm not young) with computers, and I chose a CS major because I love what I do. But what I'm seeing now before my eyes -- not from media hype, but what I've actually seen happen to people I know -- is the end of software engineering and development as a viable profession in the US. I mean if you really want to compete with someone making 10% of what you do, you have to be homeless in the street and barely feed yourself.

    The guy in India making 10% of what I do is living twice better because the cost of living in India is %5 of that in the US. Most of the Indian offshore guys I know have two dedicated servents, a big comfortable home, a very nice car, and their fingers are loaded with gold rings.

    And the funny thing is, they complain about US programmers that they make high salaries and that the "poor" Indian programmers are more worthy.

    DUDE! Most of us are in dip-shit credit debt, won't own our modest house in 25 years, and our cars are leased!

    Our government is a bunch bought-up crooks that don't care about the welfare of Americans. All they care about are the interests of a tiny greedy oligarchy that could care less what happens to America as a country or a nation, because they can just move thier capital somewhere else.
  56. It's madness because the USA will become a third world country if all the manufacturing, engineering, and creative work is done somewhere else.Have you ever heard about customs and tariffs? And why you have to pay them?On one hand, the low wage labor is already taken by illegal aliens. On the other hand, all the middle class manufacturing, technical, and creative professions will be offshored, not to produce a better product, but, as someone already mentioned here, to produce a mediocre, less-than-average product by brute force numbers for cheap.The other day I heard that CNET's Builder.com will offshore all work jobs to India. So what jobs are gonna be left here? Lawyers, salesmen, marketers, executives, and doctors?I spent all my life (and I'm not young) with computers, and I chose a CS major because I love what I do. But what I'm seeing now before my eyes -- not from media hype, but what I've actually seen happen to people I know -- is the end of software engineering and development as a viable profession in the US. I mean if you really want to compete with someone making 10% of what you do, you have to be homeless in the street and barely feed yourself.The guy in India making 10% of what I do is living twice better because the cost of living in India is %5 of that in the US. Most of the Indian offshore guys I know have two dedicated servents, a big comfortable home, a very nice car, and their fingers are loaded with gold rings.And the funny thing is, they complain about US programmers that they make high salaries and that the "poor" Indian programmers are more worthy.DUDE! Most of us are in dip-shit credit debt, won't own our modest house in 25 years, and our cars are leased!Our government is a bunch bought-up crooks that don't care about the welfare of Americans. All they care about are the interests of a tiny greedy oligarchy that could care less what happens to America as a country or a nation, because they can just move thier capital somewhere else.
    It's called com·pe·ti·tion. Cope.
  57. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Gartner says only 32% of the 2.5 million Java developers in the world have genuine knowledge, which means there is a serious lack of high-level development skills.
    I don't how Gartner got this number, but I am not surprised. First of all, it says "in the world", which is much larger than the US. Hence, the H1B arguments are pointless. Secondly, it says "genuine knowledge", which can mean a lot of things. I know Bloch has "genuine knowledge" and my brother doesn't, but there's a large grey area between Bloch and my brother.
  58. Journalism Gap[ Go to top ]

    I think what we're seeing here is a Journalism Gap. MDA (Massively Documented Advertising) is a new paradigm that leverages the skills of fewer journalists to publish more articles.

    By using Compuware's PR engine, journalists can be freed up from their journalistic integrity and allow the engine to generate articles from a high level PIM (Product Integrated Message) and turn a standard newswire story about, say, a skills gap survey from Gartner, into a full page article about Compuware.

    This is the cutting edge of journalism.
  59. Journalism Gap[ Go to top ]

    MDA (Massively Documented Advertising) is a new paradigm that leverages the skills of fewer journalists to publish more articles.
    MDA is about abstraction and governance.

    I recognize these as important for attaining quality and time-to-market. Are you familiar with SEI's Capability Maturity Model?
  60. MDA (Massively Documented Advertising) is a new paradigm that leverages the skills of fewer journalists to publish more articles.
    MDA is about abstraction and governance.I recognize these as important for attaining quality and time-to-market. Are you familiar with SEI's Capability Maturity Model?
    I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed my point. I was not describing MDA, but journalism. It was an attempt at satire. Yes I'm familiar with CMM.
  61. Where there is hope[ Go to top ]

    The amount of press that this little article by a South African it news site has generated is an unfortunate reflection on the current state of the market. Everyone is so desperate to hear that _their_ market is not screwed in the long run that even the most tenuous thread of hope makes front page serverside and javalobby. Here's the reality: your java job will most likely be outsourced to someone who'll work for less than you, who may or may not have your skillset, their cost of living will be lower, the hours they are willing to work for more, your boss will get promoted because he hired them, your company's shares will go up because they're outsourcing, whoever they are they'll actually be working which means sooner or later they'll have more experience than you, while you bang away at the message boards and hope that your name on the contributors list for some open source project will mean that you can someday sell google ads on your blog to pay your parents back for your broadband.
  62. Where there is hope[ Go to top ]

    Here's the reality: your java job will most likely be outsourced to someone who'll work for less than you, who may or may not have your skillset, their cost of living will be lower, the hours they are willing to work for more, your boss will get promoted because he hired them
    The jobs of the bosses should be outsourced.

    Its the bosses who produce unemployment. And they like it because they can sell it as an success story (no matter what the facts are). Its them who are responsible for the unemployment, not the unions, the globalization or the world economy. For every new rich man 10 people become poor. YESSSS. Thats what we need.

    We had the internet hype a few years ago and many of us most thought that traditional shops will be replaced by internet shops. It simply didn't happen. Companies who neglected traditional commerce and put too much focus on eCommerce must have had hard times because of that wrong decision. What I want to say by this: It doesn't mean that offshoring will replace workers as some people fear.
  63. Here's the reality: your java job will most likely be outsourced to someone who'll work for less than you, who may or may not have your skillset, their cost of living will be lower, the hours they are willing to work for more, your boss will get promoted because he hired them
    The jobs of the bosses should be outsourced.Its the bosses who produce unemployment. And they like it because they can sell it as an success story (no matter what the facts are). Its them who are responsible for the unemployment, not the unions, the globalization or the world economy. For every new rich man 10 people become poor. YESSSS. Thats what we need.We had the internet hype a few years ago and many of us most thought that traditional shops will be replaced by internet shops. It simply didn't happen. Companies who neglected traditional commerce and put too much focus on eCommerce must have had hard times because of that wrong decision. What I want to say by this: It doesn't mean that offshoring will replace workers as some people fear.
    Take your socialist diatribe elsewhere, please.
  64. Take your socialist diatribe elsewhere, please.
    The people here talked about offshoring. Watch Michael Moores "Roger & Me" to realize what that means to the affected people, the affected city (Flint/Michigan) and the country (U.S.A.). Its ethics, not politics in my eyes.

    Off-Shoring is not just a technical or economical thing, its also something with painful social consequences. We all are responsible for how ethical the future develops, including you.
  65. The people here talked about offshoring. Watch Michael Moores "Roger & Me" to realize what that means to the affected people, the affected city (Flint/Michigan) and the country (U.S.A.). Its ethics, not politics in my eyes.
    I think you're both wrong. It's about neither ethics nor politics. It's about economics. Global wage equilibrium is a path to equality, and equality is something socialists want.
  66. It's about economics. Global wage equilibrium is a path to equality, and equality is something socialists want.
    Socialists want forced equality through redistribution. Capitalism will bring global equality as a not very objectionable by-product, while also bringing us better/faster/cheaper products/labor. Something socialism will never be able to.
  67. Socialists want forced equality through redistribution. Capitalism will bring global equality as a not very objectionable by-product, while also bringing us better/faster/cheaper products/labor. Something socialism will never be able to.
    You must take the best points of both capitalism and socialism in order to design a system that will increase the happyness in the world. Capitalism alone will make very few people happy. I heard about the many people in USA who must work on two jobs and still they are poor and modern slaves. Socialism alone will make also only a few people happy. What we need is a good mixture. And please look at the result, not on the means. Its very fruitless if such a discussion becomes irrational (capitalism vs. socialism). Thinking in black and white categories (good and bad) is not the thing we need.
  68. Take it from a Flintstone[ Go to top ]

    The people here talked about offshoring. Watch Michael Moores "Roger & Me" to realize what that means to the affected people, the affected city (Flint/Michigan) and the country (U.S.A.)
    Actually, that movie is a terrible example... I happen to have grown up in Flint, MI, and can testify that Moore's movie took shreds of truth and twisted them to a point that his movie was not a true representation of reality. Moore had an agenda, and packaged his messages in a shockingly funny movie, but please let's not make the jump that off-shore development will turn us all into rabbit farmers...
  69. Take it from a Flintstone[ Go to top ]

    Actually, that movie is a terrible example... I happen to have grown up in Flint, MI, and can testify that Moore's movie took shreds of truth and twisted them to a point that his movie was not a true representation of reality. Moore had an agenda, and packaged his messages in a shockingly funny movie, but please let's not make the jump that off-shore development will turn us all into rabbit farmers...
    Moore is a very talented filmmaker. The problem is that he passes his extremely biased, inaccurate, and sometimes downright deceptive, movies off as documentaries. His very good at what he does, but unfortunately people tend to take it seriously if it fits their own perception.
  70. Two angles to this[ Go to top ]

    Angle 1 - If you are a Java Developer, you can continue feeling smug knowing that there is great demand for your skills.

    Angle 2 - If you are a Project Sponsorer faced with the problem to choosing which technology to use, you would definitely consider that due to this "gap" -
    a) Good Java Developers would be more difficult to come by
    b) They would be more expensive.
  71. I wonder if outsourcing to India really cut cost. Let me explain, we all know that maintening and evolving an application is where most part of the cost is. Do we have any number to say outsourcing reduces mid and long term cost ? Sure the short term cost is reduced but that's only a small fraction of it : quality and adaptability of the architecture will decide the total cost.
    I would be very curious to see numbers.
    As for programming skills, I do think that not so many people are good at programming, maybe one on ten, just because so many people just don't like programming, they only do that for living (whatever your american or indian).
    It takes a lot of effort and learning to keep on the pace of the software technology : see the number of JAVA api you have to master for enterprise level problems (and saying you can avoid them is just pure illusion, you have at least to really understand the often very hard problems they resolve)
  72. 32%?[ Go to top ]

    "Gartner says only 32% of the 2.5 million Java developers in the world have genuine knowledge, which means there is a serious lack of high-level development skills."

    32%? Imho it's closer to 10% (no humiliation intended). Finding good programmers who can actually "think" rather than stick pieces to each other is really hard. I beleive programming is more about techniques than science but most programmers I've seen don't know these techniques. Don't know why though....

    Ara.
  73. 32%?[ Go to top ]

    Finding good programmers who can actually "think" rather than stick pieces to each other is really hard.
    Maybe business analysis is the skill you're referring to? I've compiled model diagrams, and it left me more time and enthusiasm for analysis. I felt I got better code faster because of it. And I absorbed the subject matter like an expert. I enjoyed it. That doesn't necessarily put me in the competent 32%, does it? Hmmm.
  74. Too high salary?[ Go to top ]

    I read in "The Mythical Man Month" that the good programmers are 10 times better than the average programmers. But they don't earn 10 times more, maybe only double as much. And in another discussion a guru stated that only every fifth programmer is really productive. The rest is just ballast.
  75. Too high salary?[ Go to top ]

    I read in "The Mythical Man Month" that the good programmers are 10 times better than the average programmers. But they don't earn 10 times more, maybe only double as much. And in another discussion a guru stated that only every fifth programmer is really productive. The rest is just ballast.

    I think it depends on the problems that you're trying to solve, but for a lot of complicated / difficult tasks (and only from my own experience and IMHO) I would say that the vast majority of developers will actually make things *worse* with every line of code that they write. What MDA tools try to do (again, IMHO) is to take complicated tasks and make them simpler, not just so more people can work on them easier / better / faster, but so the tasks become doable and manageable at all. Same thing goes for 4GLs, CASE tools, IDEs, etc.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  76. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    Well, I recently started looking for a Java development job after being in my current post for 7 years. I'd heard how bad the job market was (this is in the UK) and was a bit worried that it would take a while. Not wanting to blow my own trumpet, but I got 2 firm offers in under a month.

    This surprised me and I asked the people at the one I accepted about this. They said that while there are lots of people out there with EJB qualifications (i.e. bits of paper) they often can't do bog standard coding in any language, let alone Java. They want people who have a solid grounding in software development / computing science, not someone who graduated 6 months ago.

    The amount of developers who don't know thier way around a UNIX command line amazes me, for example.
  77. Projects don't finish[ Go to top ]

    Many developers do not get to exercise their familiarity-level knowledge in a practical way due to Projects not completing. Many projects fail due to bad project planning and management. If more projects got completed, then the 32% as quoted would be higher I'm sure. We need to improve on Project Management, and reuse. We are engineers, not backyard mechanics.

    Eanna
  78. Sure they conduct a "research"!

    Just visit Dice or other sites with job ads and check Java job requirements.
    In most cases they will include such "gentleman set" (all in one add):
    1. Java. J2SE, J2EE , RMI, mail, Messaging, Swing, Servlets, JSPs and more other APIs.
    2. Java IDE, usually several of them.
    3. Application servers, sometimes more than one
    4. Open source. Strats, JUnit, Cacoon, ... tons!
    5. OOP experience and very often RUP.
    6. XML - huge set.
    7. Database skills, usually more than one (Oracle, IBM, MS, Sybase).
    8. Ability to work in team environment (someone can think that there are a lot of programmers like R. Crusoe).
    9. Excellent verbal and writing skills (probably like a professional speaker and writer).
    10. No less than 3 years of experience, usually 5.
    11. Very often various business area experience.
    12. A long list "nice to have" things.

    Looks like a hybrid of Superman, Batman, Rocky IV and Terminator 3, doesn't it?

    Then put all these in the resume and send to them.
    I guarantee that result will be "no response" in almost all cases.

    It means that all managers and agents have no problem to find such remarkable
    people. Moreover, taking into account the requirement to have a specific business
    area experience, we can conclude our research that there are a lot of such people
    in each area.

    This nonsense so called research is only to lobby job outsourcing and importing
    H1-Bs.
  79. ...It means that all managers and agents have no problem to find such remarkablepeople. Moreover, taking into account the requirement to have a specific businessarea experience, we can conclude our research that there are a lot of such peoplein each area.This nonsense so called research is only to lobby job outsourcing and importingH1-Bs.
    Vladimir, you are soooo wrong, unfortunately. It only means that 1) The managers themselves are not sure what the heck they want; 2) almost everyone these days _puts_ all or much of this stuff in their resumes, regardless of the actual experience/ability level.

    What it doesn NOT mean is that there are many people who actually _are_ really good in all those technologies. In the past years, being a contractor (and, fortunately, a very busy one) I can tell you that the biggest problem I see in organizations today is that the majority of software engineers (many of whom have senior titles) are simply incompetent and do not deserve their paychecks! At the same time, unfortunately, I know some very capable people who have problem finding jobs.
  80. What a suprise ...[ Go to top ]

    The solution for bridging the gap is to use tools such as Compuware's OptimalJ ... says Compuware's sales manager.

    Sounds convincing to me :-)


    Regards,
        Dirk
  81. Just In Time Learning[ Go to top ]

    We have measured the annual increase in the rate of change of information (that's the second derivative) that must be assimilated by a modern programmer at 4.5%. For example, after spending 18 months to attempt to master JDK 1.4's 25,000 methods, programmers now must learn an additional 8,000 more methods for JDK 1.5 (a 35% increase) ... and the J2EE stack is also morphing at a similar rate.

    The days of being able to master your technology stack are over. The key to survival and indeed productivity is to have a firm grasp of fundamentals, and to be able to assimilate just-in-time information.

    For programmers, the best documentation regarding an API or a language is annotated code examples. <shamless plug>That's why we created Zamples.</shameless plug.>

    http://zamples.com
  82. Just In Time Learning[ Go to top ]

    We have measured the annual increase in the rate of change of information (that's the second derivative) that must be assimilated by a modern programmer at 4.5%. For example, after spending 18 months to attempt to master JDK 1.4's 25,000 methods, programmers now must learn an additional 8,000 more methods for JDK 1.5 (a 35% increase) ... and the J2EE stack is also morphing at a similar rate.
    So at the current rate increase, in 14 years we will have 100% change of information every year: your new year's wish will be a brand new frybrain neurolearner helmet! :)

    Cheers!
    Henrique Steckelberg
  83. chill out... and hit the books![ Go to top ]

    Folks, let's calm down for a minute and stop blaming each other - or cheap indian programmers, etc. Let's face it, as much as that article is nothing but a cheesy paid ad for OptimalJ, the truth is: most (I mean, the vast majority) of Java developers out there are INCOMPETENT! Most of them do not have a computer science degree, have absolutely no knowledge/understanding of algorithms and data structures, no concept of OO - or even basic structural/procedural - programming, they put all their spaghetti code into a single endless method that often spans hundereds and even thousands lines... but they all expect to be oaid good money! I guess one of the things we should blame for this phenomena in the IT field is the dot-com bubble. Way too many unsuccessfull accountants, art/drama or philosophy major graduates rushed into the technical sector and all of a sudden became "Java developers." I remember back in 96 or 97, when I was a hardcore C++ programmer, my rock-climbing instructor gave me a lecture on how great Java was - after he hacked together a one-page web site to promote his business. He told me that he was "really getting into Java." He seriously thought that after he had copied a few lines of JavaScript from somewhere, he was an expert. The less people know, the more they THINK they know... But, regardless of the lack of expertise, companies in the 90s kept hiring faster than the recruiters could dig out the candidates! Almost any dumbass could become a "Java consultant" and make 6 figures. Of course, when the bubble popped, many of those clowns - who, by the way, had learnt very little since the day they were hired, lost their jobs. However, none of them have lost their 6-figure ambitions. So, they are the ones we should blame, really. They are everywhere, they have saturated the job market claiming years and years of Java experience, they list all sorts of skills on their resumes while, in reality, they are absolutely useless. The greedy recruiters only push those who agree to work for a little less money than someone who really knows his/her stuff, that's why the hourly rates have dropped! And incompetent managers congratulate each other on hiring a bunch of "junior developers" for less money instead of someone who actually is capable of implementing their projects. Those "juniors" - together with the bogus dot-com "java veterans" - drive companies into the ground, stretch simple tasks into endless projects that constantly require maintenance and financial injections. Look around. If this is not the case in your organization, you are lucky, stick to your job! But I am sure that most of you guys know exactly what I am talking about. I think that the biggest problem today is the inability of the hiring managers to precisely identify the position requirements and tell whether the candidates indeed have the appropriate skill sets behind the wall of buzzwords and BS. Often, the manager is someone who also BS'd his way into his position and is more likely to hire someone who "talks right" rather than a person who is indeed capable of finding and implementing solutions. Recruiters are a major obstacle these days as well. They mushroomed in the 90's, it also became sort of a trend: thousands of "frat boys" rushed to form recruiting agencies specializing in IT industry, eager to make a quick and easy buck. Most of those companies have since disappeared, following their dot-com clients, etc. But too many useless recruiters are still out there, standing in the way between a good software engineer and a company that is looking for one. If a company is looking for a contractor, the recruiter negotiates the hourly rate, and then looks for the candidate who will agree to accept the position for the lowest rate. The recruiters pocket the difference that is often more than 50%. Therefore, the recruiters are almost intentionally send the worst candidates to the companies, as long as those candidates have the "right" things listed in their resume. If the company's interviewers do not have the skills (or, often, simply the time and dedication) to accurately determine the candidate's skills, there you have it: another useless Java developer in your organization. So, I have no doubt that the Gartner report is not overly pessimistic. Incompetence is indeed the curse of our industry these days... So, I guess, the answer is that each of us should just try to do our best and keep up with the technologies - so that we can always prove that we are better than average.
  84. I thought I was bitter[ Go to top ]

    I read through the entire thread. It felt like a replay of the same disgruntle lunchtime discussions I've heard during the last 20 years of my career.

    My advice to us all is to learn alot, practice alot, and share through example as much of our wisdom as it possible. If we are very fortunate then one day we might all find ourselves surrounded those skilled enough to recognize our skills ;-)
  85. Here is my take at MDA. I do believe it's a good theoretical idea. It also might prove to be a good tool for creating a prototype/skeleton/release-0.0.1 of the project from the scratch to demonstrate the domain model in the "real" life to the management to get project funding. The question is however where do you go from there. There are two main roads that the complex project might take:

    1) Try to stay with MDA and enhance the application using the "special free blocks" of the generated code. When you get desperate, which will happen eventually as no code generation tool is perfect:

     1.1 Try to "work around" the problem using the suggestion from the vendor. Depending on the complexity of the problem the work around might produce the code that is very difficult to understand and might defeat the whole purporse of the MDA.

     1.2 Try to modify the code generation patterns to accommodate for a situation. At this point, not only this would require a deep knowledge of the J2EE, Struts, etc. but a very good understanding of yet another beast, the language the code generation patterns are written with.

    2) The second road is to drop the MDA tool at some point and continue to enhance the application manually which of course makes the MDA code generation tool obsolete. That's what we all have seen happening with generated code in the past. One of the reasons that the second path might look more attractive for some projects is that investing in the code generation patterns modifications might be quite expensive and finding someone to do so is not going to be easy at all. Also, some J2EE patterns and best practices are more stable than others. It's even truer for the implementations: MVC with Struts vs. JSF is just one of many examples. If the MDA tool provider won't support a particular implementation then you are pretty much done there.

    I think it's very naive to hope that code generation patterns will take any case into an account. You would have to either modify the generation pattern, "work around" the problem inside MDA tool or give up on it at some point.

    Here is my take at the outsourcing. I believe that one of the reasons for a move to the outsourcing was the fact that the quality of the IT professionals dropped overall (even though lots of bright people were there and more came on working visas). Too many people "became" IT professionals overnight for the wrong reasons when IT was a hot business and demand was very high around y2k. Many of such people are now into something else (like real estate) that is now hotter than IT where they could not complete after conditions reversed back. They however have done a significant harm to the IT industry by letting management to come up with a universal slogan "It's hard to find talented people". Since so many IT projects fail for different reasons including both incompetence of the management and professional staff (naturally, the management mistakes are blamed on the programmers most of the time anyway), the outsourcing did not look so bad. Really, how could it go any worse? At least, it can save some money. We live in a global economy now and that means the increased competition as well. I however think that we are going to see some number of the outsourced projects fail but it will take awhile for executives to admit it.
  86. The second road is to drop the MDA tool at some point and continue to enhance the application manually which of course makes the MDA code generation tool obsolete.
    That's too drastic. Better to invoke hand code for the few aspects that the model compiler can't handle. With the commercial model compiler I used, it was very easy to invoke hand code from a behavioral model. If a pattern in hand coded routines were later identified, then it could be added to the runtime mechanisms or abstracted into a UML stereotype or annotation recognized by a generative template. The wall between handiwork and generated logic is a myth, and the two can be stitched together easily.
  87. Gartner reports Java Skills Gap[ Go to top ]

    The trend in manufacturing is that products to be sold abroad will be made abroad. Within 20 years, overseas market will comprise 50% of all revenues, so we really should expect even more outsourcing.