JBoss hopes to expand 'ownership' of open source

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News: JBoss hopes to expand 'ownership' of open source

  1. People are very interested in what JBoss, Inc is going to do with its new money aren't they? An interview with Marc Fleury discusses "professional open source" and how JBoss is "going for ownership of the code bases". "We control 95 percent of the Hibernate code base," said Fleury, "and 45 percent of Tomcat".

    Excerpt
    Middleware developer JBoss says it plans to use its war chest of VC money to 'own' key open-source projects, and even applications running on .Net could be in its sights

    Open-source middleware developer JBoss Inc. plans to use the $10m (£5.4m) venture capital injection it received in February to expand its 'ownership' of open-source projects, according to founder and chief executive Marc Fleury.
    Read the full article in JBoss hopes to expand 'ownership' of open source

    Threaded Messages (41)

  2. They should give Marc a Nobel prize for marketing: I can just see him on a golf course with some CIO explaining to him how he owns 45% of Tomcat ..
  3. Good to see the true color of JBoss. from a open source community to professional opensource company ..
  4. What is wrong with buying committers? It sounds like a great plan to show clients that their needs will influence the direction of key and emerging technologies. The "product" is not just the code base, which can always be branched, but also rock-star technology visionaries (with CVS commit rights), support, bleeding edge ideas like AOP, and $10M of oxygenated blood.

    Fluery/JBoss is sort of a Steinbrenner/Yankees thing. Both can hate each other and we can hate them both, but as long as they keep winning it works.

    The attack on Fleury's statements brings up a bigger issues as to what the long term trend for open source will be. Projects seem to go through a cycle of idea -> creativity -> (ego/pride) -> burn out -> money. In the end, all projects need a patron whether its IBM, MS, Apache, Sourceforge, or JBoss. JBoss's motive seems open and right on.

    Leave Mark alone on this one.
  5. LOL[ Go to top ]

    You all may be ashamed of youselves. Such a big april fool ...
    Marc should laughing his ass off reading this thread.

    They got you !
  6. Somebody sent us up the bomb[ Go to top ]

    All your code are belong to us ..
  7. Yeah, the change log shows us all what JBoss has done to Hibernate (= nothing):
    http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/hibernate/Hibernate2/changelog.txt?rev=1.41.2.20.2.9&only_with_tag=v21branch&view=markup
  8. And here comes the king[ Go to top ]

    I would like to know where, and when, open source stops and "professsional" begins... I´ve seen quite similar behaviour in another key industry figure... Bill Gates ;-)
  9. And if Remy leaves Tomcat he'll suddenly "own" 0% of Tomcat? If he (gasp!) hired me he'd "own" 100% of my tiny PyraLog contraption? He's going to be in for a very rude awakening when (not if, when) someone forks one of the code bases he "owns". This is especially weird when you consider that Bill Burke said that all code written in JBoss is owned (copyrightwise) by the writers, even if they work for JBoss.

    I think he should invest some of that $10MM and buy a book on copyright law....

        -Mike
  10. Ownership[ Go to top ]

    I think people are confusing the kind of ownership. Thought ownership matters a lot in open-source projects. It gives direct influence and control over the future direction of a project. That is much more powerful than legal ownership.
  11. Ownership[ Go to top ]

    Long time no see, CF. Here's a quick primer for you:

    Legal ownership lasts as long as the law will allow.

    The ownership you are talking about lasts as long as the developers stay around and don't get too pissed at Marc and leave. By this rather bizarre measure of ownership, how much did JBoss' "ownership" drop when the CDN guys left?

    By this measure of ownership, if Gavin hits the lottery, gets tired of Hibernate or gets tired of JBoss, JBoss' ownership will go from X% to near 0% real quick. If Bela leaves, the same thing. Hell, if Bill Burke gets a better offer somewhere JBoss' "ownership" of their new flagship AOP system plummets to zero too.

    One form is permanent and binding, the other ephemeral and volatile. And businesses don't do so well when their foundations are ephemeral and volatile. Customers and investors tend to like the more solid groundings.

        -Mike
  12. Ownership[ Go to top ]

    You are correct regarding it being ephemeral and volatile. However, it is Marc's ability to be able to take such risks and manage them that makes this possible. He seems to be able to foresee when the hen that lays the golden egg finds the worms on his lawn rather tasteless so that new hen (correct plural?) can be cultivated beforehand (e.g. Rickard and Bill). That is the savvy of a good project manager. The CDN guys left but JBoss is still alive. The risk was mitigated somehow and JBoss is still on the radar(AOP hype, Gavin, etc).
  13. Greetings,

    I found those news quite disturbing. I hope neither Hybernate nor Tomcat will become JBoss’s projects. A few years ago, I tried to use JBoss and it was my worst nightmare. Maybe it is different now and it is easy to use or maybe not. Maybe JBoss's support model requires application server to be complicated so more profit can be collected from support.

    Best regards,

    Taras
  14. Greetings,I found those news quite disturbing. I hope neither Hybernate nor Tomcat will become JBoss’s projects. A few years ago, I tried to use JBoss and it was my worst nightmare.
    What was wrong with it?
  15. whats wrong with jboss[ Go to top ]

    Greetings,I found those news quite disturbing. I hope neither Hybernate nor Tomcat will become JBoss’s projects. A few years ago, I tried to use JBoss and it was my worst nightmare.
    What was wrong with it?
    JBoss being difficult to use maybe down more to the J2EE component model being nasty to use.

    Take a look at Pico for clarity and ease of use.
  16. whats wrong with jboss[ Go to top ]

    I'm just not sure how anybody could consider JBoss hard to use when compared to some of the heavy servers like WebSphere and Weblogic, although I like Weblogic's admin interface but WLS (newest 8.1) still requied me to use the web interface to redploy apps. Do check the JBoss jmx-console and web-console which are both very nice.

    JBoss is so easy to use -> unzip/untar run -c all. And the cluster setup on a single machine is easy as well. Uncomment the BindingManager in the main jboss xml file and reference the ports file in the examples dir. Copy the all server to ports-01. Drop the farm xml example into the two servers farm directories and party. Oh and deploying on a JBoss cluster is easier then deploying on a single instance of WLS.

    JBoss also features a free getting started guide that is more than ample. http://www.jboss.org/docs/index#free-32x

    If you don't like the J2EE component model aka CMP 2.0 then use Hibernate with DAO classes and put your business logic into session beans. XDoclet is your friend here. It creates the remote and object interfaces as well as a handy util class for getting the home interface and your remote object. So that leaves you to develop in just the bean class (as you should).

    Have fun,

    Cory
  17. re: whats wrong with jboss[ Go to top ]

    I tried JBoss when servers like SilverStream, ATG Dynamo, WebLogic 5.X, Orion 1.5, JRun 3.1, IAS (BAS) 4.X, Pramati 3.X, etc. also were on a market. As you see it was long time ago and maybe JBoss got improved since that time. Anyway, I was able to run custom EJB application in all of those ASs except ATG Dynamo and JBoss (I don't even remember its version). For some reason I just have painful memories about JBoss. Now, I don't even want to try JBoss since there are other free Java Application Servers with better support. Actually, let me re-phrase it: JBoss is last application server on my list of java application server evaluations.

    Regards,

    Taras
  18. Now, I don't even want to try JBoss since there are other free Java Application Servers with better support. Actually, let me re-phrase it: JBoss is last application server on my list of java application server evaluations.Regards,Taras
    Meaning what, Jonas?
  19. whats wrong with jboss[ Go to top ]

    I'm just not sure how anybody could consider JBoss hard to use when compared to some of the heavy servers like WebSphere and Weblogic, although I like Weblogic's admin interface but WLS (newest 8.1) still requied me to use the web interface to redploy apps.
    The clustering capability is indded superb but being able to easily write one's own JMX mbean just really rocks.

    I use an app server to do industrial control applications within an intranet. A lot of the stuff I need to do just can't be dealt with properly by the business-logic-oriented programming model of EJBs. After taking JBoss training I'm now whipping out XMBeans to do this other kind of stuff that doesn't square with EJB.

    Because our intranet is totally programmed with Tibco JMS, my first XMbean (XMBeans use JBoss AOP which make it super easy and quick to devise JMX MBean interfaces) was a UDP listener that returns the JMS Provider URL path to the JMS failover cluster to any client on the network that does a UDP broadcast to request it. Kind of a DHCP for JMS. I next used a pre-existing JBoss wrapper class - specified in the jboss-service.xml deployment descriptor - to turn this XMBean into a cluster singleton. So this service runs on only one node of the cluster (which a lot of the mbeans I need to write need to be cluster singletons - they control things like TCP/IP interfaced hardware devices). If the node it is running on goes down, then it is automatically started on a surviving cluster node.

    JBoss, as a J2EE application server technology, just astounds me with how easy it makes this stuff to do and achieve complex, yet robust behaviors.

    Now I still do a lot of stuff with EJBs too - message driven beans of course because all communication is via JMS. And naturally I use Hibernate for persistence. I'm doing multiple instantiations of Hibernate as an JMX MBean due to fact that have differnet apps running that connect to different Oracle schemas and thus need their own partitioned XA data source. (I use XA to get roll back on my message queue when things go awry. Other cluster nodes often times will succeed or else will eventually give up and JBoss will put the message into the dead letter queue where email fires to alert admin of problem.) Hibernate and JBoss meld together wonderfully on account Hibernate supports an MBean and it well supports XA.

    When I look around at the other J2EE implementations none of them come close to comparing with JBoss for ease of doing the kind of app server development that am using JBoss for. Sure it's not run of the mill (and boring) web application development. But I see that as a testament to JBoss versatility that it has an architecture that can span web development needs to industrial control applications that need robust failover capabilities and programming models for hosted apps other that strict EJB.

    People on this forum bad mouth Fleury constantly - I could care less about Fleury's quirks. JBoss speaks for itself - and speaks quite eloquently where it counts.
  20. Greetings,I found those news quite disturbing. I hope neither Hybernate nor Tomcat will become JBoss’s projects. A few years ago, I tried to use JBoss and it was my worst nightmare.
    What was wrong with it?
    If it was the same experience I had lately: overly complicated, non-compliant to industry standards, poor performance.

    I much prefer Orion.
  21. I got really excited about JBoss when it started and used it for a while but then I got very turned off because Marc Fleury is such an ass. He reminds me of Howard Stern. A loudmouth jerk that gets a lot of people to think he is some kind of god. JBoss seems to be much more about ego and religion than anything else at this point.
  22. must be april fools[ Go to top ]

    as titled
  23. Ownership is an interesting term. What is ownership in open source? Marc is a loud mouth at time, but if you look at tomcat, hibernate, jgroups, jboss aop, etc, the people who write this code get a salry to write this code from jboss inc. Mysql owns all the code in mysql. Do you think there is a chance the journalist misquoted marc? They like to create contraversy. .
  24. excellent point...
    I can just imagine the conversation.

    <bold>Loney:</bold> Boss, you wanted to discuss my piece on the Fleury interview?
    <bold>ZDNBoss:</bold> Yes. For once, Fleury said absolutely nothing offensive! This just won't do. We want our readers to pay attention.
    <bold>Loney:</bold> Any suggestions?
    <bold>ZDNBoss:</bold> Sure...lets focus on the "ownership" quote. How about this for a title? "JBoss hopes to expand 'ownership' of open source"
    <bold>Loney:</bold> Great idea!! Every FOSS zealot within 8 billion miles of Sedna will smell the blood...hehe
  25. Wow...[ Go to top ]

    It is amazing how Mark has the unique ability to take something that is fairly good (or completely irrelevant) and spin it in such a way as to strike fear into open source developers everywhere.

    I will have to drop this into "completely irrelevant" unless if they start trying to get the developers they pay to turn over their rights to Jboss, in which case, that would be "very bad".

    I don't know what it is exactly, but there is just something about Jboss that makes me uncomfortable. Uncomfortable enough to be hesitant to use it at work even...

    Maybe Jboss 4 will change my mind like Netbeans 3.6 is doing to me right now (Well, Netbeans + Linux, Netbeans on Windows is still godawful slow).
  26. Wow...[ Go to top ]

    It is amazing how Mark has the unique ability to take something that is fairly good (or completely irrelevant) and spin it in such a way as to strike fear into open source developers everywhere.I will have to drop this into "completely irrelevant" unless if they start trying to get the developers they pay to turn over their rights to Jboss, in which case, that would be "very bad".I don't know what it is exactly, but there is just something about Jboss that makes me uncomfortable. Uncomfortable enough to be hesitant to use it at work even...Maybe Jboss 4 will change my mind like Netbeans 3.6 is doing to me right now (Well, Netbeans + Linux, Netbeans on Windows is still godawful slow).
    Just wanted to say that for MySQL, any contributor must sign over IP to MySQL Inc. before contributing. It allows them to relicense MySQL under a proprietary license for those squeamish about GPL. This is not the case for any JBoss project as contributors retain their copyright, but we require submissions be licensed under LGPL. We've added about 10 new non-JBoss-Inc. contributors over the past year (maybe more, not sure of number).

    Anybody wishing to contribute, please see the dev forums and TODO lists. We're pretty lenient about granting CVS access. Just show you have a clue and initiative. No legal contract or red-tape or commitee/board approval like some other organizations.

    For JBoss, AOP, Nukes, or Mail Services:

    http://www.jboss.org/index.html?module=bb

    For hibernate:
    http://www.hibernate.org/20.html

    For JGroups:
    www.jgroups.org

    Our dev process is totally open as well as we are hosted on SourceForge. No secret CVS repositories.

    Anyways, I hope JBoss 4 can change your mind. Until then....

    Regards,

    Bill
  27. Little fleury hacked blog[ Go to top ]

    little fleury fucking ******* hacked cedric blog this nite and took ownershit hehehehe

    http://beust.com/weblog/
  28. This hardly sounds as if JBoss are becoming the 'owners' of the code... I'd say it's more they are becoming the employers of the prime people who can support the platforms.

    I have no allegiance with JBoss themselves, but what they are doing hardly seems to go against the open source principle... they take on board good open source developers, pay them to develop their product, probably getting their other employees to learn a load on the way. This means they can then provide quality support for the open source frameworks for corporate clients who would otherwise shy away from using them. Surely this is promotes open source within an area that otherwise wouldn't use it?

    It's not like these developers couldn't go off on their own, found their own consultancy company to support their open source product. However, this all requires a big wad of cash, and a good user base. At the end of the day people should be rewarded for the good software they write - this would certainly encourage more people to release their software as open source. Otherwise we might be back to using poorly written products from big companies who are purely out to make as much money as possible.
  29. Well this article just goes to show how little we think before we post ....

    You're excused if April Fools day is not celebrated in your culture. The rest have no excuse :-)
  30. Of course anyone who would be serious about 'owning codebases' would be a greater fool :-)
  31. Well this article just goes to show how little we think before we post ....You're excused if April Fools day is not celebrated in your culture. The rest have no excuse :-)
    This article came out on CNET yesterday afternoon. It must have been 4/1 somewhere but I am not so sure it was a deliberate April Fools joke.

    Michael
  32. My mistake, it was just so ludicrous I didn't believe for a second it was a real article. I can only refer to my second post ....
  33. This is an April fool's day joke and ZDNet wasn't in on the hoax, right ?

    Marc :

    "We consider something open source when we control x amount of the code base," said Fleury, but declined put a figure on "x". "We control 95 percent of the Hibernate code base," said Fleury, "and 45 percent of Tomcat."

    Does the contrapostive hold true? That they don't consider something open source when they don't contol x percent of the code base? Does that mean linux isn't open source?

    Forgetting the 'imaginative' definition of open source presented here, how does he define 'We' and 'control'?

    I'm going to charitably assume that the reporter just blew it.

    geir
  34. Taking a leaf from mr McBride?[ Go to top ]

    "Ownership of open source"?
    Sounds a bit like Marc has learned and taken a leaf from the mouth of mr Darl McBride of SCO. ;)
  35. To fool or not to fool[ Go to top ]

    Oh great, a variant of Letterman's "George W. Bush joke that's not really a joke": "JBoss April Fools which is not really an April Fool". As with Dubyas twisted attempts at humor the mind really boggles when trying to decide whether this interview is serious, irony, double irony, or even triple irony. Who can tell? I guess we'll never really know for sure.
  36. Did you ever...[ Go to top ]

    do a lot of interviews with press people and get quoted both incorrectly and out of context? Do you know that most reporters have English degrees and do not know technology or business.

    Anyway, I think our Professional Open Source Strategy is pretty clear:

    If we support an open souce project for customers, we have to be credible and really contribute to that project technically. This means that JBoss employees (who (oh, horror) make some real money (just like an IBM or Sun employee who contributes to open souce)) are significant contributors to those open source projects. This means we can deliver valid support and fix bugs for customers who are in production situations. Customers pay us for this, which we then use to feed back into the system to continue growth and increasing strength. If it works, then more employees get hired and we support more customers and we contribute to more projects. Pretty simple.

    And, oh yes we are very, very open source. We contribute to JBoss projects and other projects at other places like Apache. Remy happens to be a JBoss employee and he has contributed about 40% of the changes to Tomcat. JBoss is free. Tomcat is free. Hibernate is free. If you don't want support or think you can do it yourself - that is cool. If you are an ISV and want to embed like hundreds of other ISV's - that is cool too. If you want to contribute to the project - that is cool.

    It seems to be working. We keep attracting new people, and our business model keeps providing the resources to hire new people and expand the number of projects that JBoss can provide support on.

    In fact, if you are interested in a job or are part of a great open source project that could benefit from this Professional Open Source model - let us know. We are hiring...

    Bob Bickel
    JBoss
  37. Did you ever...[ Go to top ]

    I'm going to assume you're serious even though you're posting on April 1. If you're not, then simply fuggetabadit.
    do a lot of interviews with press people and get quoted both incorrectly and out of context?
    If you are referring to this interview and not just as a rhethoric question, then please update us on exactly 1) what were the incorrect quotes and 2) what is the actual context for the quotes (after corrections etc.).

    In particular I would to understand the quote "We are going for ownership of the code bases" in its full context. I would also like to understand the quote "We consider something open source when we control x amount of the code base", with corrections and full context.

    I am sure that all TSS readers would like to know the truth of the matter.

    Thanks.
  38. Did you ever...[ Go to top ]

    I guess JBoss is getting its head in the same clouds Redhat has theirs.
    They have been claiming to BE Linux for a good time now, rather than just one distribution.

    And now of course Redhat is starting to move away from the free part in free software and requiring payment for their distribution (which previously was optionally available free of charge as a download).
  39. Did you ever...[ Go to top ]

    I'm going to assume you're serious even though you're posting on April 1. If you're not, then simply fuggetabadit.
    Since you have not replied I assume that you have fuggedabadit, and that the interview and your reply were indeed April Fools. Oh well. Haha.
  40. Did you ever...[ Go to top ]

    Rickard,

    No, I thought my post answered your question. It tries to clearly state our direction and strategy. It is obvious that open source is not "owned". We have a license FAQ on our web site.

    Bob Bickel
    JBoss
  41. Did you ever...[ Go to top ]

    Rickard,No, I thought my post answered your question.
    Your answer was an attempt at providing a general "sanitized" version of the situation, but it did not answer the (fairly) explicit questions. I would appreciate if you answered the explicit questions with equally explicit answers.
    It tries to clearly state our direction and strategy. It is obvious that open source is not "owned". We have a license FAQ on our web site.
    That's nice, but it contradicts what Marc says, which indeed talks about "ownership". If he was, as you implied, misquoted I would really like to know just what he said exactly.
  42. Business support for open-source[ Go to top ]

    " JBoss calls its business model "Professional Open Source" -- a trademarked term which basically means paying open-source developers to work on their projects, and charging customers for support."

    I believe this could be a very good thing. These developers get to devote full time to their projects, and get paid for their efforts. Makes the project better, and improves the product for all who use it.

    However, how much influence do the JBoss corporate managers/executives wield over the direction of the projects? Maybe they don't interfere at all, and all direction comes from project leads, and consensus among users, developers, and contributors. Maybe some JBoss direction is good, to help the tools work together.