An Open Letter to McNealy: Turn to the Enterprise

Discussions

News: An Open Letter to McNealy: Turn to the Enterprise

  1. Scott McNealy must be getting a lot of mail at the moment. In this open letter, Joshua Greenbaum, looks at history and asks Scott to "get real about enterprise software."

    Excerpt
    "So, Scott, it's time to get real about enterprise software. Which means getting real about moving out of the commodity stack and into the value-added side of the equation.

    Here's my advice: take that money you just got from Microsoft and go spend it on enterprise software. Buy some applications, acquire the service companies that can implement them, and start owning some of the Java solutions that everyone else is building on your dime.

    There's no alternative but to get on the enterprise software bandwagon. Or I'll be writing this same column two years from now. Only this time it will be an epitaph."
    Read An Open Letter to McNealy: Turn to the Enterprise

    In related news: Sun's Green Lands at Utility Computing Play

    Threaded Messages (82)

  2. Old Russian saying: If you are so smart, why are you so poor?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  3. Strange flip-flop...[ Go to top ]

    Old Russian saying: If you are so smart, why are you so poor?Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    ... in Russia we used to think it is a "capitalism"
    saying, because the system (USSR) did not support equation
    smart=rich...

    AV
  4. Old Russian saying: If you are so smart, why are you so poor?Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    Old bible says that every government is installed by god and is therefore good. Same wrong logic.
  5. Old Russian saying: If you are so smart, why are you so poor?Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    Old bible says that every government is installed by god and is therefore good. Same wrong logic.
    Uh. No it doesn't. Same wrong quoting as in "Money is the root of all evil" (it is the love of $$$ :) ).
  6. http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2594309

    Nice to see SUN is in linux desktop JDS just rocks
  7. Disheartening[ Go to top ]

    It is really sad to See SUNW on 4.49$ after so much to the community and some cool stuff to hack around,Sun you deserve something good and for that ,you guys really need a mindshift,We the Community would be happy to see SUNW exceeding those who cash on what u guys toil to invent!
  8. Disheartening[ Go to top ]

    I agree. Sun *deserves* to make money. They've given the software community a lot to be proud of. Now, they just need to figure out how to make money. For that, hire some people whose heads are not up their butts. Get away from idealism and stop this crap about Java desktop and the "network is the computer" and that kinda junk. They just don't have the clout to *market* those kinds of ideas.

    Instead, they should focus on what truly understand well: Server-side java applications. They have the right people to be able to deliver some really good products in this area, they just don't have the right business leaders in those departments.
  9. what shall Sun do?[ Go to top ]

    The worth of a company is something else than just the added sum of their assets. it is the "image in the market" that counts. So the best thing Sun can do at the moment is to sell as fast as possible before the stock-holders understand that at 4.49$ they are grossly overvalued.

    You can not turn a hardware company into a software company.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  10. At least have some sense[ Go to top ]

    You can not turn a hardware company into a software company.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    I think that asking you to have some sense if not much, isn't it? How come you first say that Sun doesn't make it's own hardware, and now say that it can't go from hardware making to software making?

    These flamebaits you spread here are a lame way of dragging attention to yourself.
  11. International Business *Machines*
  12. what shall Sun do?[ Go to top ]

    The worth of a company is something else than just the added sum of their assets. it is the "image in the market" that counts. So the best thing Sun can do at the moment is to sell as fast as possible before the stock-holders understand that at 4.49$ they are grossly overvalued.You can not turn a hardware company into a software company.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Looks like you are finance expert too.
  13. what shall Sun do?[ Go to top ]

    The worth of a company is something else than just the added sum of their assets. it is the "image in the market" that counts. So the best thing Sun can do at the moment is to sell as fast as possible before the stock-holders understand that at 4.49$ they are grossly overvalued.You can not turn a hardware company into a software company.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Oops ... what did IBM do in the last 10 years ... please shut up for good.
  14. stupid letter.[ Go to top ]

    Sun is going into the "Software Commodity" with products like Java desktop , J2ME . It is not looking into Enterprise Software areas like ERP , CRM etc or even a services model like IBM ( with statements like we know banking / insurance etc)

    I think it is planning to go head on with Microsoft in the Software Applications space(however this space might evolve) . It will not be the traditional market of desktop systems as we will probably have a bunch of Consumer devices requiring software applications.

    I think this is a good strategy as suns strength has been products / technology and the horizontal space.

    It would be good to see a microsoft alternative . Although I am not sure if SUN can do it.
  15. Uneducated letter[ Go to top ]

    I just posted the following on my weblog:

    The author has some severe misconceptions about the software field:
        But software technology -- operating systems, development tools, application servers, systems management tools, and the like -- all come with a major handicap. They become commodities so fast that pure technological excellence has little differentiating power.
    None of these industries are anywhere near commoditization. If such were the case

        * Windows would be free, as would be WebLogic and WebSphere.
        * There would be no differentiating factor between Windows and Linux, they would all provide the same set of services. Same for WebLogic and WebSphere.
        * Open source software would dominate all these markets.

    Even free IDE's such as Eclipse can't commoditize the IDE space, as JBuilder and IDEA have been showing for several years now.

    Software doesn't exist in a vacuum. What drives commoditization is user needs, not producers. And so far, user needs have constantly brought in new requirements on all these software stacks, precisely preventing commoditization from happening.

    The author needs to read up on some basic business principles before trying to patronize a CEO...
  16. Uneducated letter[ Go to top ]

    Software doesn't exist in a vacuum. What drives commoditization is user needs, not producers. And so far, user needs have constantly brought in new requirements on all these software stacks, precisely preventing commoditization from happening.
    Strongly disagree. Software vendors drive a lot of ‘innovations’ to make money and effectively prevent commodization.
  17. Uneducated letter[ Go to top ]

    Strongly disagree. Software vendors drive a lot of ‘innovations’ to make money and effectively prevent commodization.
    Right, but where do you think these innovations comes from? Mostly from user pressure and countless interviews asking them what they need.

    For example, toasters are pretty much commoditized, so what stops vendors to add all kinds of innovations to it, like a DVD player?

    Answer: because users don't need it.

    It's all about users.

    --
    Cedric
  18. source of 'innovations'[ Go to top ]

    Strongly disagree. Software vendors drive a lot of ‘innovations’ to make money and effectively prevent commodization.
    Right, but where do you think these innovations comes from? Mostly from user pressure and countless interviews asking them what they need.For example, toasters are pretty much commoditized, so what stops vendors to add all kinds of innovations to it, like a DVD player?Answer: because users don't need it.It's all about users.-- Cedric
    There is subtle but extremely important difference between users “wishes” and their “needs”. Vendors exploit users by satisfying user “wishes” and use customers computer “illiteracy”.

    There is huge difference between software that developed to satisfy “needs” and software that satisfies user “wishes”.
    First type of software has long life and might become commodity if addresses generic functionality (awk, sed, etc), but usually has a learning curve( sometimes steep one)

    Second type of software: has very short life because it satisfies user immediate “wishes” but customers quickly get frustrated because it does not do what they really need. This type of software is very popular: it satisfies all user requirements and vendors get paid, but real value of such soft is close to zero.

    In your “toaster” example user understand own “needs” and do not confuse them with “wishes”, when dealing with more complex things (not just soft) people are less able to make informed decision and often confuse “wishes” with “needs”. Suggested reading: Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman.
  19. Uneducated letter[ Go to top ]

    None of these industries are anywhere near commoditization. If such were the case * Windows would be free, as would be WebLogic and WebSphere. * There would be no differentiating factor between Windows and Linux, they would all provide the same set of services. Same for WebLogic and WebSphere. * Open source software would dominate all these markets. Even free IDE's such as Eclipse can't commoditize the IDE space, as JBuilder and IDEA have been showing for several years now. Software doesn't exist in a vacuum. What drives commoditization is user needs, not producers. And so far, user needs have constantly brought in new requirements on all these software stacks, precisely preventing commoditization from happening.
    I beg to disagree... and the proof is exactly in the examples you cite. For the
    vast majority of people, the OS and Office Apps are already commoditized, and if it wasn't because of backwards compatibility, the switch to an Linux/FreeBSD desktop with OpenOffice right now is not only feasible but highly advantageous in some respects (virus? stability? sysadmining?).

    Programmers IDEs evolve much more rapidly than, say, a spreadsheet app, but still... not rocket (computer) science you know.

    So I think the original author is right on, Free Software is changing the rules,
    and, in ten years time, most software companies will be service-oriented or dead.
  20. "Sun head on with Microsoft in the Software Applications space"

    A company that doesn't make neither its own hardware nor OS and that has not had even one single successful software product ever? Where they hire friends and relatives without proper screening? That have a pointy haired manager that never been a professional? That had a lame business idea with Unix "workstations"? That only exists because of the Internet boom? That tries to take credit for Java that is mainly developed by the international community? That makes "specifications" instead of real software? And when other companies finally have dragged the "product" to something useable claim ownership and charge 500 000+ for certification? The company that says they are not earning any money from Java when they actually has taken in approximatly 20 times as much as they have invested? That has the most arrogant staff on earth? That spend more time in court and inventing invent outrageous slanders about Microsoft and Bill Gates than develop own products?

    Curious

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  21. A company that doesn't make neither its own hardware nor OS
    Which world do you live in . have you heard the names SPARC / Solaris
    That tries to take credit for Java that is mainly developed by the international community?
    I am thinking why am I even responding to your message when clearly you have no clue java.
  22. Please Be Nice[ Go to top ]

    Rolf, these comments are not only uncharitable, they are false and out of line.
  23. "Sun head on with Microsoft in the Software Applications space"A company that doesn't make neither its own hardware nor OS and that has not had even one single successful software product ever?
    Rolf, you weren't clear whether your baseless assertions were regarding MS or Sun; from past posts I guess they were aimed at Sun so thanks for the opportunity to allow me to state some facts regarding Sun's software sucesses :

    o The Java System Directory Server is the #1 rated Directory Server by Gartner, #1 market share leader by Radicatti. Sun have sold over 1.5 billion seats - it is a very successful product.

    o The Java System Web Server is rated #1 in market share in the Fortune 100, Global 250, Fortune 500 (Financial & Ins. Verticals) by Netcraft - it is more secure than other web servers (only 3 CERT advisories for 02/03 compared with 16 for IIS and 31 for Apache) - it is fast (up to 24x Apache when using SSL).

    o The Java System Application Server was the first shipping, deployable J2EE 1.4 product and the first product to fully support WS-I. Sun's J2EE reference implementation has had over 4 million downloads.

    o The java System Portal Server - recently ranked above MS Sharepoint, BEA WL Portal and IBM WS Portal by Network Computing.

    o I could go on – Java Web Services Dev. Pack, MQ, Sun Cluster, Solaris, J2SE, Messaging & Calendar Servers, etc. etc. - these are all very sucessful products by anyone's measure.

    What is your measure of success ?

    As for some of your other statements - they're just not worthy of a response and I won't waste my time.

    Rich Sharples
    Sun Microsystems
  24. better than Sharepoint! wow[ Go to top ]

    I would like to say something about the venerable products you mention if I had any idea of what they are. Unfortunately I have never heard of any of them.

    unless the product once called "iPlanet" is one of them of course- in that case I regret to say that it must be the worst product I ever worked with. Or to you mean the product that you gave up upon and Jakarta changed into Tomcat? :)

    Keep to your specifications. That seems to be good business. Do you care to reveal how much revenue Sun has accumulated during the years in license and TCK fees for EJB 1.0 for instance? ("made by alien from other space") as somebody here in TSS so eloquently expressed it.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (no, I will not mention Petshop)
  25. I would like to say something about the venerable products you mention if I had any idea of what they are. Unfortunately I have never heard of any of them.
    I guess asking you to have some sense was too much indeed. I'm out of here.
  26. nice behaviour[ Go to top ]

    "I guess asking you to have some sense was too much indeed"

    but Henrique,

    Don't you think it is time that Sun takes a little flak when you consider what they have said during all the years about Microsoft?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  27. nice behaviour[ Go to top ]

    "I guess asking you to have some sense was too much indeed"but Henrique,Don't you think it is time that Sun takes a little flak when you consider what they have said during all the years about Microsoft?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Well, if you really want to hit Sun, at least know what you are talking about. The only thing you have hit until now is your own foot.
  28. better than Sharepoint! wow[ Go to top ]

    I would like to say something about the venerable products you mention if I had any idea of what they are. Unfortunately I have never heard of any of them.
    So WHY are you wasting time casting aspersions about something you openly admit to knowing nothing about. More to the point why am I wasting my time replying - Doh !

    Rich Sharples
    Sun Microsystems
  29. better than Sharepoint! wow[ Go to top ]

    I would like to say something about the venerable products you mention if I had any idea of what they are. Unfortunately I have never heard of any of them. unless the product once called "iPlanet" is one of them of course- in that case I regret to say that it must be the worst product I ever worked with. Or to you mean the product that you gave up upon and Jakarta changed into Tomcat? :)Keep to your specifications. That seems to be good business. Do you care to reveal how much revenue Sun has accumulated during the years in license and TCK fees for EJB 1.0 for instance? ("made by alien from other space") as somebody here in TSS so eloquently expressed it.RegardsRolf Tollerud(no, I will not mention Petshop)
    Rolf, I mean no disrespect, but you have been acting here more or less like an alien, LOL :)

    From my experience arguing with you the other day, which was predictably futile, you throw in outrageous claims, and when someone refutes your arguments and debunks them with facts, you change the subject by throwing irrelevant claims instead of conceding you were wrong.

    That is not to say that sometimes your claims do make sense, but you tend mix them up with fables and myths and draw the wrong conclusions for the most part.
  30. Peter: "You tend to draw the wrong conclusions for the most part"

    Is that so?

    OK, the claim is: Sun is grossly overvalued both in "Public Eyes" and in stock value. The smartest thing they can do is to sell now.

    So all we have to do is to lean back and wait to see the outcome of the "outrageous claim".

    No problem.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  31. Sun has the largest brainshare among enterprise developers, the most pervasive enterprise development platform, state of the art high-end servers (and no, clusters of cheapo PCs won't cut it for most enterprise applications that require high inter-node bandwidth), rock-solid 1337 OS ;), a fresh $1.9B in CASH, a long-term relief from distracting lawsuits, and most importantly, a stranglehold on IBM's, Oracle's, Borland's, BEA's, and Novell's huge investments in Java technology.

    And after all that, you claim it's a sinking ship? Hmmm, wonder which companies have stakes now in fueling that FUD?
  32. Peter: "You tend to draw the wrong conclusions for the most part"Is that so?OK, the claim is: Sun is grossly overvalued both in "Public Eyes" and in stock value. The smartest thing they can do is to sell now.So all we have to do is to lean back and wait to see the outcome of the "outrageous claim".No problem. RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Man, gotta have one of those cristal balls too, they are so cool! ;)
  33. 1.5 b-b-b-b-illion ????[ Go to top ]

    ...The Java System Directory Server is the #1 rated Directory Server by Gartner, #1 market share leader by Radicatti. Sun have sold over 1.5 billion seats
    I thought surely this must be a joke. 1.5 BILLION? Well, according to http://wwws.sun.com/software/products/directory_srvr/home_directory.html Sun has sold 1.5 billion licenses. Wow.

    Of course, reading the fine print, at http://store.sun.com/CMTemplate/CEServlet?process=SunStore&cmdViewProduct_CP&catid=95139
    you buy a license for every entry in the directory. That makes a bit more sense, but makes the initial claim a little misleading.
  34. Thank you Patrick. I owe you one!

    So now can we examine the other "Sun software projects".
    What can possible "The Java System Web Server" be?

    I found out myself. It is the old infamous iPlanet on which they change name every week. Last week it was called "Sun One".

    That "The java System Portal Server should be better than Sharepoint can we dismiss right away. Sharepoint has every signs to be one of Microsoft most successful products ever.

    So then remain only The Java System Application Server, "the first shipping, deployable J2EE 1.4 product" (supposed to be positive, I get ;)

    What can it possible be? I reach out to the TSS community for help.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  35. psychotherapy required?[ Go to top ]

    I reach out to the TSS community for help.
    Yes, yes, I see you need it!
    What did Sun/Java ever do to you as a child to cause you to hate them so?

    Here...lay back on this couch and tell us about it.
  36. "The java System Portal Server should be better than Sharepoint can we dismiss right away. Sharepoint has every signs to be one of Microsoft most successful products ever.
    Nostradamus, thanks for the prediction - your opinion will no doubt influence many an IT department's purchasing decisions (way more useful than that skimpy NWC article http://www.nwc.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18900467&pgno=5)

    Any idea which numbers will win the California Lottery this week ?

    Rich Sharples
    Sun Microsystems
  37. To predict the outcome[ Go to top ]

    of Sun Portal Server vs Microsoft Sharepoint..

    Well that should not be too difficult. Tell us how many working installations of the Java System Portal Server it is out there right now, will you?

    And when you are at it, why do you not solve for us "the mystery with the Java System Application Server". It is almost certainly an old failed product under a new name but which one?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Irresponsible hobbyist - Microsoft hacker
    Specialist in sticking pins in overinflated egos and overhyped products from Big Iron companies
  38. Trollerud
  39. Actually, his entire name is a suspicious anagram:

    Role Troll FUD

    Coincidence? ;)
  40. To predict the outcome[ Go to top ]

    Here's what it is:

    http://wwws.sun.com/software/products/appsrvr/home_appsrvr.html

    It was also known as iPlanet ans Sun One app server. Look at the description of the second entry in this search results page:

    http://onesearch.sun.com/search/onesearch/index.jsp?qt=Java%20System%20Application%20Server
  41. To predict the outcome[ Go to top ]

    Tell us how many working installations of the Java System Portal Server it is out there right now, will you? And when you are at it, why do you not solve for us "the mystery with the Java System Application Server". It is almost certainly an old failed product under a new name but which one?
    Nostradamus, again thanks for the opportunity:

    Here are some Portal server sucess stories : http://wwws.sun.com/software/products/portal_srvr/news.html

    As for the Sun Java System App Server, no it is not an old failed product under a new name - it is a fairly successful product under a new name. FYI, Version 7 onwards inherits nothing from the iPlanet App Server 6.x (which was developed under the Sun Netscape / AOL/ Time Warner / Whatever Alliance).

    Rolf, perhaps you could do the server side community a service and undertake a thourough evaluation of App Server 8 and post your results here; feel free to download it : http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/download-sdk.html#bundles

    About those lottery numbers - c'mon just a hint ;)

    Best Regards,

    Rich Sharples
    Sun Microsystems
  42. share with us[ Go to top ]

    maybe Rolf wants to share with us all the grief, trouble, wasted time and money regarding IIS 6.0 and Outlook, with millions of computers infected with viruses and trojans and security holes, thanks to his beloved Miscrosoft Corporation. Call that a sucessful track record!!! LOL!

    Of course it doesn't mean a thing to Rolf, since .Net is the bestest thig ever!!!! It rules! Never mind what holes IIS has, never mind what crap Windows ME is! Ferget DLL hell!! Microsoft has turned into the perfect secure company from night to day!! LOL!

    I don't think Rolf wants to be taken seriously... what a troll.
  43. all the grief, trouble, wasted time and money regarding IIS 6.0

    Can you point to any official/unofficial bug report(s) realated to
    IIS 6.0 (part of win2003) ?

    I understand that IIS 5 had some security issues.

    IIS 6.0 - security bugs is news to me.

    Please educate me.
  44. "Can you point to any official/unofficial bug report(s) realated to
    IIS 6.0 (part of win2003) ? "

    You have a point. However, if we used asto-turf Rolf logic it does not matter. It's still a security hole since it's still *called* IIS and produced by the same company, see?
  45. Please don't feed the troll[ Go to top ]

    See topic.
  46. > all the grief, trouble, wasted time and money regarding IIS 6.0 Can you point to any official/unofficial bug report(s) realated toIIS 6.0 (part of win2003) ? I understand that IIS 5 had some security issues.IIS 6.0 - security bugs is news to me.Please educate me.
    Unnoficial IIS 6.0 bug report: http://www.infohacking.com/INFOHACKING_RESEARCH/Our_Advisories/iis6/index.html

    I've read somewhere that MS won't recognize these, so people would believe IIS 6.0 is perfectly secure ;)
  47. Henrique,

    Can you not see that this fight can not go on any longer. If it was allowed do make an CLR compiler for Java 1.5 for both Unix and Windows everybody would benefit and could freely use the combined libraries of both Java and .NET. All this is stopped now because of Suns desperate death grip of the Java environment that is mostly developed by the international community. They hold literally millions of people hostage!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  48. Henrique,Can you not see that this fight can not go on any longer. If it was allowed do make an CLR compiler for Java 1.5 for both Unix and Windows everybody would benefit and could freely use the combined libraries of both Java and .NET. All this is stopped now because of Suns desperate death grip of the Java environment that is mostly developed by the international community. They hold literally millions of people hostage!RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Well, how would you define Microsoft's grip on the CLR and .Net? Don't they hold millions of users hostage too? Since Java is based on Specifications and not on a single instance closed implementation, how can .Net users be considered "more free" than Java users? Do you think Mono people are happy conding in the dark when they are not sure how things should really work under .Net's hood, since .Net's APIs are not clearly specified anywhere? How will Mono be able to keep up with .Net's evolution, given that it is solely under MS's closed control?

    AFAIK, anyone can make a CLR compiler for Java, there are already Python, Perl, and lots of other language compilers for Java, it would be just another one on the list. My guess is that MS would be the one to hinder you from doing it, and not Sun.

    The great question of all: why couldn't MS be compliant to Java Specifications like IBM, BEA and everyone else, instead of changing the language in order to lock users to windows's platform and break the "run anywhere" rule? There wouldn't be any need for .Net, all this interoperability problems, religious fights, and everyone would be happy, don't you agree?

    But no, MS can't play by others rules, it must be THEIR rules, always. Pity.
  49. Henrique: "AFAIK, anyone can make a CLR compiler for Java"

    If that is true why must the IKVM guy,
    http://weblog.ikvm.net/

    use CNU Classpath? What are the legal issues actually?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  50. Henrique: "AFAIK, anyone can make a CLR compiler for Java"If that is true why must the IKVM guy,http://weblog.ikvm.net/use CNU Classpath? What are the legal issues actually?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    And what has the classpath (a library) to do with the compiler? these are 2 completely distinct parts of java, like GCC and LIBC in linux. You can create a CLR compiler that generates compliant java bytecode, and it sould run ok on any Java implementation: sun's, ibm's, bea's, or your own.
  51. "You can create a CLR compiler that generates compliant java bytecode"

    What are your meaning? I am talking of a compiler that compile Java source code to IL, the .NET intermediate language so it can be run by the CLR engine.

    The other way around- to compile .NET languages to run on Java VM is not a viable option because Java is a subset of C#.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  52. "You can create a CLR compiler that generates compliant java bytecode"What are your meaning? I am talking of a compiler that compile Java source code to IL, the .NET intermediate language so it can be run by the CLR engine.The other way around- to compile .NET languages to run on Java VM is not a viable option because Java is a subset of C#.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    And who would want to be stuck to one platform only using such a compiler? The other way around would allow .net to run on 10s of different OSs and CPUs. I am not so sure if C# can not be compiled to java bytecode, I think whatever C# has that java don't can be overcomed when translating to bytecode, the same way you can compile both C# and java to native code of a specific CPU, but I am not a compiler expert.
  53. There was a product out since .NET 1.0 for compiling .NET applications into Java applications. It worked pretty well, even back then. I can't remember the name, though.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  54. There was a product out since .NET 1.0 for compiling .NET applications into Java applications. It worked pretty well, even back then. I can't remember the name, though.Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    I think it is this:
    http://www.mainsoft.com/products/vmw_j2ee.html

    It compiles MSIL code to java bytecode.

    I wonder what would have happened, had microsoft respected Java Specifications and invested in Java, instead of creating a whole new platform just in order to maintain control on its hands. Microsoft should be able to compete on a level field, given all its immense resources. Competition is good, but fragmentation is not, so I wonder if it would have been better for everyone (industry, developers and users) if MS had chosen to support Java, as other companies have (IBM, Novell, BEA, etc.)

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  55. "You can create a CLR compiler that generates compliant java bytecode"What are your meaning? I am talking of a compiler that compile Java source code to IL, the .NET intermediate language so it can be run by the CLR engine.The other way around- to compile .NET languages to run on Java VM is not a viable option because Java is a subset of C#.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    I see no problems to implement this kind of tool, but I see no meaning to compile java for .NET, do you have some problems with java applications on windows ?
    If CLR become better in some way than most of JVM implementations then somebody will implement it, but probably it is a nonsesnce at this time. It is more meaningfull to drop .NET and to run application on any plaform and probably on better VM implementation.
  56. Why don't you ask him ?!?
  57. Well, how would you define Microsoft's grip on the CLR and .Net? Don't they hold millions of users hostage too? Since Java is based on Specifications and not on a single instance closed implementation, how can .Net users be considered "more free" than Java users?
    First of all C# is an ISO standard, it doesn't belong to Microsoft anymore. The core of the CLR is also an ISO standard. Thus, both are more free (as in speech and as in beer) than their Sun counterparts, which are published "industry" standards but still are Sun IP (hence, Rolf's use of the word "hostage" for Java programmers). Granted, when you come to the rest of the platform (ADO.NET, ASP.NET, Windows Forms, etc.) the Java documentation is more mature than that of .NET but, as far as IP rights are concerned, for these other components Microsoft .NET is as propietary as Sun Java.
  58. .NET is not as propietary as you say[ Go to top ]

    http://www.linuxjournal.com/comments.php?sid=6833&tid=6841&mode=&order=&thold=
  59. Mono + MS = True[ Go to top ]

    http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/activity-log.php
    Scroll down a little, tio see the picture. How touching!

    http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/texts/patents.html
  60. Mono + MS = True[ Go to top ]

    This is just too funny :-)) And this is supposed to prove what ? Geeks can't dance ?

    Linux is public enemy #1 as far as M$ is concerned. Why in heaven's name will they allow Mono to become successful to the point where it becomes a threat to the Windows cash cow ?!? The only reason they are not attempting to kill it at the moment is prob because it's not in their interest, what with all the anti-trust stuff going on & them trying to win Java developers & the fact that Mono is not a real competitor to .NET yet, why bother. For the moment they are happy trying their level best to destroy underlying Linux.

    The moment Mono starts to threaten the Windows pot - o - gold they will come down on it like a ton of bricks. My goodness man, this is M$ we are talking about not the Salvation Army !!! What's next Rolf ? M$ will start to support OpenOffice just because it's the charitable thing to do ?
  61. the fox has always two exits[ Go to top ]

    Henrique! Can you help me explain to this (young?) fellow-
    I am to tired to day..ok I do it..

    John! Are you found of old proverbs?

    You see that it is quite possible that Operating Systems in the future will become independent of the hardware. Java and .NET both compete for this position, which may or not may become true - but it would be totalmente irresponsable to disregard it.

    So you see that it is very important for MS to have this "second exit", like the fox, in case the (likely or unlikely, take your pick) happens that windows loose its dominance.

    the second exit=CLR everywhere.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (if there are anymore simple things you want to know, just ask)
  62. the fox has always two exits[ Go to top ]

    So they will support Mono, to eat into their existing monopoly, as a way of protecting themselves in case they lose this existing Windows monopoly?

    And once Mono is everywhere how will this help them since they have no control over it ;-) ? .. unless they have some patents that will allow them to maintain control .. free at last !!!

    Come to think of it why don't they just implement full blown .NET on Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, OS X and AIX hey presto CLR everywhere and they control it .. or are you telling us this model of a company is exploiting those poor folks from Ximian .. Animal Farm again !!
  63. whatever[ Go to top ]

    Edgar: First of all C# is an ISO standard, it doesn't belong to Microsoft anymore.

    Edgar, those two things have nothing to do with each other. A version of C# has been published as an ISO standard: true. C# doesn't belong to Microsoft anymore: false.

    Edgar: The core of the CLR is also an ISO standard.

    So what, the core of Coca-Cola (water) is also a free and open standard.

    Please, refine these arguments before posting them again ;-)

    Edgar: Thus, both are more free (as in speech and as in beer) than their Sun counterparts

    This is somewhat true. Sun is very strict about what can be called Java, and enforces compliance at a technical level. (And sometimes at other levels.) That is hardly "free as in speech." Further, Sun charges for certain licenses related to Java, so it isn't "free as in beer" to all licensees. However, this is hardly accidental -- it has kept Java's "write once, run anywhere" promise an almost-reality for eight years now.

    Edgar: Granted, when you come to the rest of the platform (ADO.NET, ASP.NET, Windows Forms, etc.) the Java documentation is more mature than that of .NET but, as far as IP rights are concerned, for these other components Microsoft .NET is as propietary as Sun Java.

    Java is not made available piecemeal. When you run on a standard edition Java Virtual Machine of a certain JDK compliance version, you are basically guaranteed that certain classes and functionality will be there. Same thing for a certified J2EE application server. In Microsoft's case, the only implementation that has any of the APIs that you mentioned is the one that runs on Windows. Is that bad? No, it's not bad. No one that wants to run on something besides Windows would ever choose .NET, so it is a fine compromise (tight Windows integration, but only runs on Windows.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  64. As usual Cameron got it all wrong and forgot about the proportions. Microsoft has given away the three things that are most basic and important in any language, the IL format, the compiler and the runtime engine- in other words, everything new and innovative. The rest of the .NET is just some utility classes that can be done by ordinary engineer work, as Ximian already has proved. This is far more than water which doesn't need to be invented or discovered.

    There are more differences between Sun and Microsoft. MS has build .NET entirely with own money, one of the grandest and most expensive investments in IT history. Sun has build Java with trickery and deceit, like in Animal Farm and it has cost them nothing, in fact they have actually earned on it. (With license, TCK fees and by suing Microsoft).

    Microsoft gives away 80-90% of .NET. Sun, this notorious country-club company gives away nothing of its loot. And now they are holding the whole world hostage, causing countless grief, trouble, wasted time and money.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  65. Microsoft hasMicrosoft gives away 80-90% of .NET. Sun, this notorious country-club company gives away nothing of its loot. And now they are holding the whole world hostage, causing countless grief, trouble, wasted time and money.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Use .NET if it is better for you and do not let SUN to waste your time. We will use .NET too, after it will be as good as JAVA and will run on UNIX.
  66. Monday 12th April, 2004[ Go to top ]

    Welcome to this week's CodeProject newsletter. Site News

    We have our millionth member!
    Congratulations to Benoit from Quebec, Canada, who takes the guernsey as our Millionth Member. We were all hoping to be in the office to pop a bottle of champagne but instead we were in Seattle attending the MVP summit and enjoying the warm weather.
  67. Monday 12th April, 2004[ Go to top ]

    Is it your Animal Farm ? http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/index.cgi/work/summaries/animf.html
  68. let the truth be spread![ Go to top ]

    Animal Farm You should know by now that any analogy is flawed by definition. Sergei Einsenstein explained it very well in one of his books. I am assuming you how who he was but of course, I may be wrong.

    If you have any emotional issues with SUN, you should seek profesional help. Otherwise you risk to become (well, you've already are) the laughing stock around.

    A shame we share the same name... you are from Norway. Isn't it?
  69. let the truth be spread![ Go to top ]

    Symbolism is an interesting art, If you can find analogy then symbolism did its job, you have found it about yourself.
  70. To predict the outcome[ Go to top ]

    Rolf Tollerud
    Is that the name of an actual person?
    Irresponsible hobbyist
    Agree on the irresponsible bit. You are such a cheap laugh.
    Microsoft hacker
    Is there such a thing as a Microsoft Hacker? Please explain.
    Specialist in sticking pins in overinflated egos and overhyped products from Big Iron companies
    The above line sells you out... you are a poor buddy, with very low self-steem and still traumatised by the fact of not having any formal qualification in IT. Besides, you haven't got any experience working outside your one-man company you run from your garage. You see the others and get bitter and bitter. So, in order to feel better, you spend your life trolling forums and "sticking pins in overinflated egos" but hey!!! nobody takes you seriously!!. When it comes to payday, those "overinflated egos" get $$$$$ while you still have to battle with "enterprise problems" like http://www.thevbzone.com/wwwboard/messages/1603.html or "hard to solve problems" like http://www.dotnet247.com/247reference/msgs/10/53783.aspx .

    My friendly and charitable advice is GET_A_LIFE! Life is beautiful, the sun is shining and the summer is about to come!!! Opssss... sorry. I forgot you live somewhere near the north pole and references to a shiny sun and a hot summer (CA perhaps??) may render you even bitter :-P

    Quite ironic statement you've made since without those "overinflated egos" around... you'd be bored to death :)

    Sorry, gotta go. There is much more interesting stuff to do than reading your postings.
  71. To predict the outcome[ Go to top ]

    rolf.tollerud@telia.com
  72. To predict the outcome[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

    Sorry, that is an old email address that doesn't work anymore. If you want to know the future send the mail to my current email address, rolf dot tollerud at comhem dot se :)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  73. the TSS (FBI) community in action[ Go to top ]

    "The java System Portal Server should be better than Sharepoint can we dismiss right away. Sharepoint has every signs to be one of Microsoft most successful products ever.
    Nostradamus, thanks for the prediction - your opinion will no doubt influence many an IT department's purchasing decisions (way more useful than that skimpy NWC article http://www.nwc.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18900467&pgno=5)Any idea which numbers will win the California Lottery this week ?Rich SharplesSun Microsystems
    Pretty sure it is their most expensive.
  74. prophecy from Mark[ Go to top ]

    OK Mark, Let us just rephrase just what you are saying:

    "A product from Sun! are going to out-compete one of Microsoft flagship products?" :)

    Don't make me laugh.

    What makes you think that when probably not even Weblogic (that is a real company) can do it?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  75. OK Mark, Let us just rephrase just what you are saying:"A product from Sun! are going to out-compete one of Microsoft flagship products?" :)Don't make me laugh.What makes you think that when probably not even Weblogic (that is a real company) can do it?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    All I said was it was their most expensive.

    No I don't think or know what will happen with Sun's Portal product. But what I do know, from experience, is that basing a one's product on another product that is very expensive and is not compatible with anything else (i.e. Sharepoint) makes it very unattractive to even those with lots of money. On the other hand, basing one's product on a JSR 168 compliant portal means one can choose vendor, price, support, features, etc. Maybe that isn't attractive to some. "A fool and his money are soon parted".
  76. To R[ Go to top ]

    "It is the old infamous iPlanet on which they change name every week. Last week it was called 'Sun One' "

    Not sure why the HTTP server is infamous .. I think you are confusing it with that big security hole a.k.a. M$ IIS ??


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/09/24/ditch_microsoft_iis_now_says/
  77. To R[ Go to top ]

    Look at The Register's fabulous reporting and doctoring of quotes:
    "Gartner recommends that enterprises hit by both Code Red and Nimda immediately investigate alternatives to IIS, including moving Web applications to Web server software from other vendors, such as iPlanet and Apache," explains Gartner's John Pescatore.

    The alternatives "have much better security records than IIS and are not under active attack by the vast number of virus and worm writers."
    Breaking up the quote across two paragraphs conveniently excised what's been said in the middle, and it's underlined here from the original Gartner report:
    Gartner recommends that enterprises hit by both Code Red and Nimda immediately investigate alternatives to IIS, including moving Web applications to Web server software from other vendors, such as iPlanet and Apache. Although these Web servers have required some security patches, they have much better security records than IIS and are not under active attack by the vast number of virus and worm writers.
    I'm sorry, but The Register is a FUD rumor mill for the OSS/FSF/IBM alliance. I'm not exonerating Microsoft of blame for sloppiness in the security dept, but it's obvious why Microsoft and its customers is singled out for attacks with viruses and worms. I'm pretty sure if Apache or iPlanet were Microsoft products, we would've found in them as much security holes as IIS, if not more.

    While it's true that Microsoft uses FUD tactics (and let's not forget after which company that phrase was originally coined), the OSS/FSF/IBM alliance and its mouthpieces (Slashdot, The Register, etc.) out-FUDed Microsoft and ran circles around it.

    Again, I'm not saying that Microsoft is innocent or doesn't have perdatory business tactics, but truth to be said, its attackers aren't much better.

    Now that Sun made a deal with Microsoft, the OSS/FSF/IBM allience's ponderous FUD propaganda machine started directing its attacks on Sun. The Register's false claim that Green quit in "disgust" and the High Priest RMS' recently coined phrase to be parroted repeatedly by mindless zealots ("Java Trap") are but harbingers of a vicious campaign against "$un".

    I mean it's a weird coincidence that High Priest ESR's call for Sun to open-source Java was immediately followed by IBM's call. I wonder who's speaking for who?
  78. To R[ Go to top ]

    "I'm pretty sure if Apache or iPlanet were Microsoft products, we would've found in them as much security holes as IIS, if not more."

    Untrue, there is no way you can be pretty sure :-)).. or did you mean - if they were *developed* by M$ -

    "While it's true that Microsoft uses FUD tactics (and let's not forget after which company that phrase was originally coined), the OSS/FSF/IBM alliance and its mouthpieces (Slashdot, The Register, etc.) out-FUDed Microsoft and ran circles around it."


    Mnnm .. I don't really want to get into this whole World vs M$ babble , but what the heck . I think M$ has got them beat by far

    http://www.pa.msu.edu/~hamlin/facts/ms-stealth.html
    http://www.christopherlydon.org/viewtopic.php?topic=1488&forum=14
    http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/17/technology/circuits/17POGUE-EMAIL.html&OQ=pagewantedQ3DprintQ26positionQ3Dtop
    http://news.com.com/2100-1001-961994.html?tag=fd_top_3
    http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/technology/tech-tech-aol-msn.html

    "Again, I'm not saying that Microsoft is innocent or doesn't have perdatory business tactics, but truth to be said, its attackers aren't much better."

    Yes, they are !


    "
    I mean it's a weird coincidence that High Priest ESR's call for Sun to open-source Java was immediately followed by IBM's call. I wonder who's speaking for who?"

    Ok, I have to agree with you on this. IBM is Royal Game !
  79. At least Java is from Sun.
    I guess everyone on this discussing uses it. It is good.

    Sun will rise again. Java and J2EE will have good future.

    Wei
    Perfecting J2EE!
    "Sun head on with Microsoft in the Software Applications space"A company that doesn't make neither its own hardware nor OS and that has not had even one single successful software product ever?
    Rolf, you weren't clear whether your baseless assertions were regarding MS or Sun; from past posts I guess they were aimed at Sun so thanks for the opportunity to allow me to state some facts regarding Sun's software sucesses :o The Java System Directory Server is the #1 rated Directory Server by Gartner, #1 market share leader by Radicatti. Sun have sold over 1.5 billion seats - it is a very successful product.o The Java System Web Server is rated #1 in market share in the Fortune 100, Global 250, Fortune 500 (Financial & Ins. Verticals) by Netcraft - it is more secure than other web servers (only 3 CERT advisories for 02/03 compared with 16 for IIS and 31 for Apache) - it is fast (up to 24x Apache when using SSL).o The Java System Application Server was the first shipping, deployable J2EE 1.4 product and the first product to fully support WS-I. Sun's J2EE reference implementation has had over 4 million downloads.o The java System Portal Server - recently ranked above MS Sharepoint, BEA WL Portal and IBM WS Portal by Network Computing.o I could go on – Java Web Services Dev. Pack, MQ, Sun Cluster, Solaris, J2SE, Messaging & Calendar Servers, etc. etc. - these are all very sucessful products by anyone's measure.What is your measure of success ?As for some of your other statements - they're just not worthy of a response and I won't waste my time.Rich SharplesSun Microsystems
  80. It would be too late for Sun to compete in the vertical enterprise applications (ERP, Supply/Chain, CRM, BI, etc.) with the likes of PeopleSoft, Siebel, SAP, and in the enterprise services/consulting with entrenched companies like IBM, Oracle, and Accenture.

    Besides, companies in the enterprise software market were facing severe financial hardships and declining sales in the past few years. That market isn't as profitable as it used to be.

    Add offshoring to the equation and even enterprise software will become a commodity soon enough.
  81. Sun App Server Successful?[ Go to top ]

    After Sun ditched Netscape/Netdynamics/Forte/Kiva/iPlanet/SunOne, giving birth to a brand new app server that is based on the 1.4 Reference Implimentation is hardly a successful app server story. Giving it a version 8 and handwaving the RI download numbers is misleading. New produce = zero market share or ISV support.

    That said, Sun's LDAP and Web server have had a good run.

    Eric
  82. the obvious solution[ Go to top ]

    There is an idealistic solution to the problem but I guess is too obvious to be seen. Why doesn’t Apple buy Sun? Then Microsoft would have a real opponent that could foster some healthy competition that would benefit us all.

    If they don't have enough money can not someone borrow it to Apple? I offer 1000 dollar from my own pocket :)

    Unlike Scott McNealy Steven Jobs have style and flair as well as solid business sense.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  83. ANAGRAMS[ Go to top ]

    Has anyone else realised that Rolf Tollerud is an anagram of FUD Troll Role

    Question is, whose role?