Study reports a strong demand for tech workers

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News: Study reports a strong demand for tech workers

  1. Despite a steady rise in the number of IT jobs being outsourced, demand for workers with Internet-related skills such as Java and networking is helping to drive IT compensation higher, according to a report released by Meta Group.

    According to the 2004 IT Staffing and Compensation Guide, which is based on surveys of more than 650 large and midsize companies, 45 percent of the companies surveyed plan to pay premiums for IT skills that are difficult to find or retain. Skill shortages are most acute in highly specialized areas such as wireless computing and information security, according to the Stamford, Conn.-based market research and consulting firm.

    Nevertheless, 72 percent of the respondents said poor morale among IT workers—much of it fueled by budget and staff cuts—is a big problem in their organizations. To try and improve morale, 45 percent of the respondents said they have employee recognition programs in place, while 40 percent offer training and other skill-development opportunities.
    Read: Study: Demand strong for workers with Internet skills

    There has been anecdotal evidence that "things are getting better". What is your experience?

    Threaded Messages (144)

  2. Two months ago I was making $75 per hour. My current gig pays only $45/hour. I hope this study is accurate. Otherwise, I'm getting out of IT. I'm completely burned out on this crap and if it doesn't pay well I won't do it.
  3. I'm with you. If the pay doesn't pick up soon I'm also getting out of IT.
  4. I'm with you. If the pay doesn't pick up soon I'm also getting out of IT.
    Which leads me to the question how many of you fellows here actually have fun working as software developers, and how many just do it because the salaries are good. I wouldn't want to be working full-time in a job that pays 100$/hour if I can't enjoy it to begin with...

    Cheers, Lars
  5. That is the question!!

    I think there are 10% of developers that are at least twice as productive as the other 90% just because they love their job, and they are not earning twice...
    Development is a kind of art, not a production chain...
  6. Seeing is Believing[ Go to top ]

    Yep, I'm with you on that. I'll believe it when I see it.
  7. Very believable...[ Go to top ]

    I received unsolicited calls from three different recruiters on Friday, and I certainly haven't been floating my resume (I have a good gig at the moment). A lot of the prospects have been for 3-6 month contracts at the moment, but I'm sure many of those will convert to full time opportunities in the near future as the economy continues to firm up. The Atlanta Java Users Group has been getting a lot of traffic from recruiters as well - I definitely see reasons for optimism.
  8. Sweet[ Go to top ]

    Sweet
  9. Two months ago I was making $75 per hour. My current gig pays only $45/hour. I hope this study is accurate. Otherwise, I'm getting out of IT. I'm completely burned out on this crap and if it doesn't pay well I won't do it.
    So would you care to share exactly what career you're going to switch to that pays so much better than your current $90k+ per year? Especially without recent experience in that field? Rates aren't what they used to be, but those rates are nothing to cry about - certainly nothing that will get you sympathy for your friends and neighbors.
  10. Excellent question Rob. I'll get back to you when I have an answer. :)
  11. 20$ an hour[ Go to top ]

    Rob,

    When you do the math it's equilvalent to $20 dollars an hour...All that overtime quietly breaks down that 90k..




    :^)
  12. Skill shortage myth[ Go to top ]

    The primary purpose of all of these sorts of reports is to act as propeganda for the big corporations so that they can lobby government to relax vesa restrictions and bring down the cost of labour.

    Paul C.
  13. Skill shortage myth[ Go to top ]

    I think Paul has hit the nail on the head. After all, the H1B visa limit was brought back down last year. This report would be a good argument to increase that limit.
  14. Skill shortage myth[ Go to top ]

    I have noticed the media always seems to promote the idea of a programmer shortage despite many people losing their jobs. There is no reality to it at all. Not only do big corporations benefit from this myth, but many vocational training schools do also. Kind of a big fish story to flood market with a huge labor supply.
  15. Conspiracy (Skill shortage myth)[ Go to top ]

    So, you’re saying that The Media (which is some sort of single-minded entity, of course) and “large corporations” are conspiring to create this myth? How does that work? Do you have evidence of a payoff?

    So many others seem to think that The Media is corporate America’s greatest enemy. I guess it depends on what view you want to promote ...
  16. <!--So many others seem to think that The Media is corporate America’s greatest enemy. I guess it depends on what view you want to promote ... -->

    Who ever thinks that is smoking some thing very dangerous... Provided the fact that all of these medias are owned by corporate America...
  17. Who ever thinks that is smoking some thing very dangerous... Provided the fact that all of these medias are owned by corporate America...
    And yet we have papers like the NY Times that are very liberal (and often outright socialist), and TV stations like FOX News that are very conservative/capitalist.

    Weird.

    --Kevin
  18. There's a lot of money and jobs leaving America. These studies are damaging and misleading.
  19. Skill shortage[ Go to top ]

    There may be some shortage in highly skilled and expereienced technical people. I think that the reason is two fold

    1) Many software companies have adopted the onshore / offshore model. The onshore
    team consists of senior people with deep technical knowledge and experience. Their primary responsibility is architecture and development of the key subsystems. The offsrore team primary contributes in detailed design and developement.

    2) It may be difficult to fill these senior technical positions from the the H1B pool. Beacuase in many countries where the H1B are from it's difficult to stay on the technical track long enough do gain the kind of experience and skill necessary. There is always pressure to move into the project management track after only few years of technical work.

    Pranab
  20. 20$ an hour[ Go to top ]

    Rob,When you do the math it's equilvalent to $20 dollars an hour...All that overtime quietly breaks down that 90k..:^)
    Not when you're getting paid hourly. I dropped the $90k into the conversation based on Race Condition's talk of $45/hour. Which can be well above $100k with a few extra hours.

    That being said, if you're still regularly working more than 50 hours a week in a salaried position, it's time to get out of there. I know plenty of developers getting paid well to work reasonable hours. More developers need to be ready to send this message to employers as the job market warms back up.
  21. So would you care to share exactly what career you're going to switch to that pays so much better than your current $90k+ per year? Especially without recent experience in that field? Rates aren't what they used to be, but those rates are nothing to cry about - certainly nothing that will get you sympathy for your friends and neighbors.
    Expectations rise much more easily than they fall. After the Y2K and WWW booms of the late 1990s, it seems like no one can work for less than $100k/yr without feeling like they're being shafted, even while most families in this country have to make do with much less than that. I suggest that this industry's expectations (and those of its workers) got way out of wack, and are still out of wack. The sooner we adjust back to reality, the sooner we can get back on a sustainable growth track, which -- in the end -- will benefit the largest numbers of workers.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  22. I suggest that this industry's expectations (and those of its workers) got way out of wack, and are still out of wack.
    I can tell that you must be issuing the paychecks. If master gives slaves less, master keeps more for himself ;-)
  23. I can tell that you must be issuing the paychecks. If master gives slaves less, master keeps more for himself ;-)
    That _is_ true, however it is a mischaracterization of what I was saying. I do have rather strong opinions on this subject, having grown up in a household that suffered from perpetual "underemployment," which often bordered on poverty (by American standards, which I readily admit is not a universal constant.)

    Also, given a specific dollar figure, it is impossible to say it is "too much" or "too little" without knowing where the job is and what it entails. When I worked in the NYC area, my living cost was _much_ higher (Stamford, Connecticut) than when I worked in Bell/Red (Redmond, Washington.)

    My point about expectations is very simple; which of the following conversations would you accept:

    1. Your boss walks into your office and says, "Congratulations, the company is growing its profits and doing well, so we're giving you a 10% raise and a $10,000 bonus."

    2. Your boss walks into your office and says, "Unfortunately, the company is losing money, so we're giving you a 10% pay cut and taking $10,000 from your bank account."

    It's the same psychological problem that other markets have. For example, it's a well-known pattern that investors have a hard time selling a stock at a loss (speaking from experience. ;-) Similarly, selling a home at a loss -- which might not even be economically feasible (e.g. if you're "underwater.") This psychological pattern tends to remove both liquidity and a rational return to balance from a market, by changing the shape of the supply curve as the demand curve is sliding up, but not vice-versa. Fundamentally, it is one of the factors that causes recessions, or at least causes them to last longer than they need to. (I'm an economics major; I was going to write a thesis on this topic, but then I got a job in IT. ;-)
    Cameron is a business owner, not an employee. That should help you understand the tenor of his post.
    I am a shareholder in Tangosol, Inc. (a corporation,) and not a "business owner." I am also an employee of Tangosol, and I have a "boss" that I have to answer to (the board of directors.) As one of the founders, I went without a paycheck for several years to help start this company, and had to routinely use my own funds to finance the company until Coherence was released. If you knew me at all, you'd know how little money means to me personally, although I understand your comments entirely and do not find them to be unfair at all, in light of the behavioral norm (ruthless greed) that I too have witnessed in this market.

    My comments above were not complaining about the cost of hiring employees. It is my honest and personal opinion that we (not "you," but "we") in this industry expected too much long after the crash of the IT market would have told us otherwise, and by and large the expectations still have not come all the way down to earth. VC's still want a 10x annual return from their companies, and entrepreneurs still talk about building $100MM companies in 2-3 years from the starting line (i.e. from a business plan and a Clippy(tm)-powered powerpoint presentation,) and entry-level programmers wonder why they can't find their next $200k/yr or $150/hr jobs. It is possible that I'm the only insane one here, and that everyone really does deserve to be able to retire filthy rich by the time that they're 25 years old; you're welcome to believe so. I, on the other hand, hope to work as long as I'm able, and hope to be enjoying it as much in 40 years as I enjoy it today. I also hope that I can accomplish more good from it than simply paying some employees' paychecks; if that were all there were to this gig called life, I would have hap'ly offed myself years ago.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  24. My point about expectations is very simple; which of the following conversations would you accept:1. Your boss walks into your office and says, "Congratulations, the company is growing its profits and doing well, so we're giving you a 10% raise and a $10,000 bonus."2. Your boss walks into your office and says, "Unfortunately, the company is losing money, so we're giving you a 10% pay cut and taking $10,000 from your bank account."
    Both of those sound reasonable. The conversation that is harder to accept is "Congratulations, the company is growing its profits and doing well. Unfortunately, we don't want to increase our costs (you) at moment because we need to stay competitive."

    The correlation between a company doing well and the employee benefitting is slowy going away. Especially in IT where you are becoming an easily replaceable resource. Ever wonder why no one asks you about your soft skills at job interviews. Instead they go down the technology checklist such as "How many years of java, xml, jmx, blah blah blah". It's because IT has become a commodity market. It's hard to make a commodity out of soft skills. So, no company is going to increase your pay when it turns a profit because you can easily be replaced (or so they think) with a comparable resource in the market.
  25. I also hope that I can accomplish more good from it than simply paying some employees' paychecks; if that were all there were to this gig called life, I would have hap'ly offed myself years ago.
    I'm not faulting your for owning your own business, or making a profit, but when I read your post it seemed to scream, "You slaves should be happy with what you are getting!". A feeling anyone who has ever written a paycheck finds hard to resist.

    Tim
  26. Tim: I'm not faulting your for owning your own business, or making a profit, but when I read your post it seemed to scream, "You slaves should be happy with what you are getting!". A feeling anyone who has ever written a paycheck finds hard to resist.

    As I said, considering the market in general, your comments were pretty fair, although I hope that they don't truly apply to me. ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  27. As I said, considering the market in general, your comments were pretty fair, although I hope that they don't truly apply to me. ;-)

    You're correct, I don't know you at all, so these comments may or may not fit you. I would never fault anyone for working hard, taking risks, and then reaping the rewards. However, anyone who has been an employee long enough grows weary of the hints that they "already make too much" or "don't deserve any more".

    Tim
  28. Hi Tim,

    I just want to state for the record that Cameron is far from the "typical" employer, in fact he pays his developers more than himself! Just my 2 cents.

    Later,
    Rob Misek
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: It just works.
  29. I just want to state for the record that Cameron is far from the "typical" employer, in fact he pays his developers more than himself! Just my 2 cents.
    You must have gotten a bonus for this post! Bravo, Cameron is a good guy and not a boss-man, I stand corrected. It was just hard to tell from this thread.

    Tim
  30. Hi Tim,

    Unfortunately there is no "bonus-per-post" program at Tangosol, if there was Cameron would be getting paid more than our developers ;-). I just thought this little piece of information would put Cameron's comments into perspective.

    Later,
    Rob Misek
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: It just works.
  31. The market in the UK started picking up in December last year, even before then it was hard to find good programmers but now there really IS a shortage in the UK, even the agencies are admitting it. Now it's almost impossible to get anyone decent for under #450/day (just over $800/day) and rates continue to rise. I've seen programming offers for over #600/day (nearly $1100/day) in the City (of London) and architects well above that. We have roles in New York we just can't fill, even paying over $120/hour, it really is hard to find the people.

    Take a look at Jobserve

    I have to agree with some of the earlier posts, people are just not investing in themselves, you need to continually educate yourself, you're never going to progress if you don't work hard at it. Like Cameron I'm an employer as was as a contractor of 17 years, we pay our staff quite well but as one of the co-founders we too suffered many years of hardship, that's after 20 years working as a programmer etc.

    Having worked (as a contractor) in Hong Kong, Thailand, Switzerland, France, Luxembourg, German, the UK, United States and several other countries let me give you a brief comparison from my own point of view...

    Central Europe (France, Germany etc.) is probably the place with the most job security, so much so that you often find complete idiots still there after years, as someone else noted here, they just can't legally be sacked. In the long term this actually strangles businesses and makes it very hard to function efficiently (for the business). I met people employed by the European Commission who'd been there for years without a job or job title, they just invoiced every month and got paid. I knew people in Germany had two full time jobs, no one checked on them because it was a dead-end job, they spent most of the time in the pub (they were Brits).

    Both the UK and Mainland Europe get 6-8 weeks holiday, my wife started a new job in May this year (after 3 kids) and got over 6 weeks, prorate, from the first day, strangely it's actually a US company.

    Hong Kong was probably where people worked the hardest, we worked 6 days a week from 9am until 8-9pm every night, OK I've worked longer hours in the past but this is the "norm" in Hong Kong, everyone works those hours.

    I probably had most fun in the US quite simply because everything was so cheap there and perhaps because US women seem to like British accents (isn't that so Dion?!). I really lived it up on my European consultancy rate paid into my Swiss bank account paying Swiss tax, I even had my own plane. I've been offered jobs in the US but I couldn't cope with less than 6-8 weeks holiday (for a permi job), then of course there's the violence, the guns, the politics and the fact that my wife wouldn't approve of those girls who like Brit accents. :-(

    Tax in Europe is slightly higher than the UK but the UK is absurdly expensive, a 2 hour commute (each way) is not unusual, under an hour is "good", the transport is pretty bad although slowly getting better, very slowly. House prices are just unbelievable, a typical 3 bedroom terraced house about an hour from London (still technically London) starts at #400k, (will over $700k), a nice 3 bedroom in a nice area with a small garden can easily top #600 (will over $1million), parking spaces have been seen for over $100k.

    So, where to work? If I just wanted to work as a programmer I think I'd opt for France, having said that most of my business (banks) is in London and New York so where I'd win from cost of living and quality of life etc. I'd lose in having to commute to London and New York.

    If you can't find a job then take a look at your resume and learning something new, if you've got spare time (while looking for a job) then start working on one of the open source projects, download and learn Java 1.5, read some books. There is NO excuse, if you don't work for your job then someone else will and they'll probably not be in a country a long way away.

    My 20ps worth,

    -John-
  32. You spoke of NY based jobs you have been unable to fill. Please give me a list. I know 2 senior j2ee architects who are looking for high paying jobs in NYC.


    thanx
  33. You spoke of NY based jobs you have been unable to fill. Please give me a list. I know 2 senior j2ee architects who are looking for high paying jobs in NYC.thanx
    Send me the resumes, I'm flying over later this afternoon (john punct davies -at- c24 punct biz) punct = dot (in German).

    I can't promise anything but there's no harm in trying. :-)

    -John-
  34. I can't promise anything but there's no harm in trying. :-)
    Don't be suprised if you don't qualify for the $120 dollar rate. More than likely your resume will put you in the $40 range.
  35. The sooner we adjust back to reality, the sooner we can get back on a sustainable growth track, which -- in the end -- will benefit the largest numbers of workers.
    Translation:

    If employer pays each employee less, employer can hire more employees, and make more money for himself.
  36. The sooner we adjust back to reality, the sooner we can get back on a sustainable growth track, which -- in the end -- will benefit the largest numbers of workers.
    Translation: If employer pays each employee less, employer can hire more employees, and make more money for himself.
    Grand. More pretense that somewhere, moneybag fat cats are hiding in a room hoarding cash that should belong to the workers. Unless someone's hiding that money under a mattress, it is generally reinvested into the economy. (Try and prove otherwise.) Or is it simply unethical to turn a profit?

    If the workers aren't being fairly compensated, they should change jobs. If nobody else will make you a better offer, guess what? You're being fairly compensated.

    It's more than obvious that the salaries set during the .com boom and bust were unsustainable, based on a temporary scarcity of talent and a glut of VC money. The VC money is gone, so even if the talent pool dries up again, it's obvious the market conditions won't bear the same pay.
  37. Grand. More pretense that somewhere, moneybag fat cats are hiding in a room hoarding cash that should belong to the workers. Unless someone's hiding that money under a mattress, it is generally reinvested into the economy. (Try and prove otherwise.) Or is it simply unethical to turn a profit?
    You misunderstand, I was just translating Cameron's statement to show they were coming from the employer side of the coin. Neither employee/employer is right or wrong, just a different perspective.
  38. You misunderstand, I was just translating Cameron's statement to show they were coming from the employer side of the coin. Neither employee/employer is right or wrong, just a different perspective.
    Fair enough. Sorry to mischaracterize your statement. I'm on the employee side of the world, but tend to think that there is indeed a shared balance of power - unless an employee has painted themselves into the corner of no marketable job skills.
  39. LOTS of misunderstandings[ Go to top ]

    Oh, he misunderstands much more than that.

    <If the workers aren't being fairly compensated, they should change jobs. If nobody else will make you a better offer, guess what? You're being fairly compensated.
    >>

    Spoken like someone who has a job right now ! Oh, so it's that simple ? So in the early 30s as hourly wages in California dropped from 25 cents to 20 cents to ... 5 cents ...

    ... because nobody else was making a better offer ... and In West Virginia children starved to death ... for the same reason ...

    those people were being 'fairly compensated' ?

    Nonsense ! The free market is neither 'fair' nor 'unfair'. That's one of the feee market's strengths - and one of the reasons we have a government.

    We have come a long way from those times, my friends, but do not console yourselves for a moment with the thoughts that this is because there is something 'fair' about the way we do business or that the 'captains of industry' have changed their natures. They are as rapacious and immoral as they were in the 1920s and 1930s, and they would like nothing better than a world in which IT is reduced to a clerical function performed by minimum wage workers ... unless it is a world where wages do not have to be paid at all ...

    The only thing that will prevent that from happening is the awareness and action of professionals in the IT community. Don't be misled by the kind of happy talk in these reports. An economy with 5.6% unemployment REPORTED - and you know the real unemployment number is much worse that that - is not good for anybody, skilled or not, who is being hired rather than hiring.

    That's the threat to the American standard of living, not some guy in India, God bless him, who's taking care of his family as best he can.

    I'm not sure why anybody in IT would argue that his salary is 'inflated', when television celebrities are earning millions ... sometimes it seems we have an inferiority complex ... ;-)

    The struggle goes on as always.
  40. LOTS of misunderstandings[ Go to top ]

    We have come a long way from those times, my friends, but do not console yourselves for a moment with the thoughts that this is because there is something 'fair' about the way we do business or that the 'captains of industry' have changed their natures. They are as rapacious and immoral as they were in the 1920s and 1930s, and they would like nothing better than a world in which IT is reduced to a clerical function performed by minimum wage workers ... unless it is a world where wages do not have to be paid at all ...
    And the hopeful 'Benevolent Dictatorship of the Proletariat' is just as altruistic and far-sighted as it was in the 1920s and 1930s. And there are just as many people thinking that they will get to be as more equal as ever, but the plateau is much smaller there, and even the current few captains of industry couldn't all fit on that pinnacle.

    I'll take my chances with the free market and eat bread instead of literature.
  41. LOTS of misunderstandings[ Go to top ]

    Oh, so it's that simple ? So in the early 30s as hourly wages in California dropped from 25 cents to 20 cents to ... 5 cents ...... because nobody else was making a better offer ... and In West Virginia children starved to death ... for the same reason ...those people were being 'fairly compensated'? Nonsense!
    Both are simple cases of markets literally flooded with labor - more people moved there seeking jobs than there were jobs to offer. The labor side of the market MUST correct itself in such a case (move, learn a new trade, etc.). Industry is under no obligation to employ every worker in a market in the career of their choosing at a preferred wage. Outsourcing aside, if someone in the same *city* as you is willing to do the same job for less money, how can you say the business is wrong to hire them instead? Further, you should note that California's low wages happened because minimum wage laws had saturated businesses' ability to hire in other states. Although much lower paying, California was at least able to create jobs because it wasn't bound by those rules.
    They are as rapacious and immoral as they were in the 1920s and 1930s, and they would like nothing better than a world in which IT is reduced to a clerical function performed by minimum wage workers ... unless it is a world where wages do not have to be paid at all ...The only thing that will prevent that from happening is the awareness and action of professionals in the IT community.
    These professionals would be better off adapting to the changing world. Find an I.T. programming job with a company that needs close interaction with their developers. Find a software company that can compete on some basis other than cost, because even if they don't outsource, foreign software will try to compete on price with U.S. written software. Protectionism doesn't work in the long run, it's proven by history.
    Don't be misled by the kind of happy talk in these reports. An economy with 5.6% unemployment REPORTED - and you know the real unemployment number is much worse that that - is not good for anybody, skilled or not, who is being hired rather than hiring.
    You do know that 5-5.5% unemployment is generally considered by economists to be "full employment"? As for the people not counted in those numbers because they're not in the job market - how in the world are we supposed to measure that and get the statistics on it? People who have decided they'd rather not work than be "under-employed" (another sham phrase) for long periods of time shouldn't be counted. If you're not in a job or looking for a job, you're not part of the work force. It's that simple.
  42. LOTS of misunderstandings[ Go to top ]

    Spoken like someone who has a job right now ! Oh, so it's that simple ? So in the early 30s as hourly wages in California dropped from 25 cents to 20 cents to ... 5 cents ...... because nobody else was making a better offer ... and In West Virginia children starved to death ... for the same reason ...those people were being 'fairly compensated' ?Nonsense !
    No offense, but I find it rather ironic to try to relate us to some starving people and minimum wage workers, while we are a group who would feel ripped off if making anywhere less than *three times* of the national average.

    Moreover, IMHO, in this context "fairly" would be more in the economical sense rather than moral or political. It's just a matter of supply/demand.
  43. So would you care to share exactly what career you're going to switch to that pays so much better than your current $90k+ per year? Especially without recent experience in that field? Rates aren't what they used to be, but those rates are nothing to cry about - certainly nothing that will get you sympathy for your friends and neighbors.
    Expectations rise much more easily than they fall. After the Y2K and WWW booms of the late 1990s, it seems like no one can work for less than $100k/yr without feeling like they're being shafted, even while most families in this country have to make do with much less than that. I suggest that this industry's expectations (and those of its workers) got way out of wack, and are still out of wack. The sooner we adjust back to reality, the sooner we can get back on a sustainable growth track, which -- in the end -- will benefit the largest numbers of workers.!
    I don't know about where you live but here in the bay area where decent homes start at over $600K, $90K a year is not a lot of money. In my dad's generation, homes cost around 3 times an annual salary. Homes now cost almost 7 times an annual salary of $90K.

    I also disagree that our expectations are out of line with other industries. My brother who teaches dance classes, charges $90/hr. Another friend doing contract PR work charges $100/hr. In fact I don't know anyone who does contract work, charging as low as $45/hr.
  44. In my dad's generation, homes cost around 3 times an annual salary. Homes now cost almost 7 times an annual salary of $90K.
    Thomas Malthus long ago explained that population growth always outstrips whatever growth is possible in crucial resources. Tectonics creates new land at a geologic snail's pace. Overbreeding increases humanity's population "at the current growth rate of 77 million new people a year". Any parent with more than two children is to blame. But don't feel too sorry for yourself; you're offspring will get even smaller claims on fixed resources.
  45. Thomas Malthus long ago explained that population growth always outstrips whatever growth is possible in crucial resources.
    Fortunately, many of Malthus' theories were quickly proved wrong, both in the logical sense as well as in the real world. IIRC (which I probably don't) we would have all already starved to death if his predictions were correct.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  46. As someone who lives/works in the bay area I would have no issue taking a job for less than 100k as long as the cost of living, housing, taxes and education starts to fall.
  47. Adjust for reality?[ Go to top ]

    The primary earners for "most families in this country" probably do not find their job positions to be completely outdated and disposable if they let their professional development "slip" for 2 or 3 years. Keeping up with the pace of IT can be an expensive undertaking - both monetarily and personally. Most professional developers that I am acquainted with update their own skills on their own time, at there own expense. Many of those who can't or won't stay on top of current IT "trends" find themselves unmarketable - literally having to take jobs that not only pay 10 - 39k less, but also are not able to get credit for soft skills and on-the-job experience that would warrant senior positions and top salaries - just because they are missing a few Bull**** Bingo keywords on their resumes.

    I say as long as the job climate is as cut-throat and unstable as I've seen - why settle for less if you have the skills employers are looking for?
  48. correction[ Go to top ]

    I ment 30, not 39K
  49. Adjust for reality?[ Go to top ]

    I say as long as the job climate is as cut-throat and unstable as I've seen - why settle for less if you have the skills employers are looking for?
    Cameron is a business owner, not an employee. That should help you understand the tenor of his post.
  50. TELL IT, brotha![ Go to top ]

    This might help him be more open-minded too:

    http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einst.htm
  51. I suggest that this industry's expectations (and those of its workers) got way out of wack, and are still out of wack. The sooner we adjust back to reality, the sooner we can get back on a sustainable growth track, which -- in the end -- will benefit the largest numbers of workers.
    Who's side are you on, anyhow? Market rates are driven by good old supply and demand, so it's hard to say how they could get out of whack. Companies only pay those rates when someone has the balls to demand them and the company has no choice but to pay it. More often than not, people don't demand what they are able to get and end up getting less. This should tell you who's setting the out of whack expectations and which way they are really out of whack.
  52. Henry: Market rates are driven by good old supply and demand, so it's hard to say how they could get out of whack. Companies only pay those rates when someone has the balls to demand them and the company has no choice but to pay it. More often than not, people don't demand what they are able to get and end up getting less. This should tell you who's setting the out of whack expectations and which way they are really out of whack.

    You're right that the markets are driven by supply and demand. For example, when we see chronic unemployment, it means that there is insufficient demand to hire more people at the prevailing wage. In other words, there may be plenty of demand to hire everyone, but the wage being demanded (supply) makes a large number of people unemployable.

    But it's actually much more complicated than that. Many companies can't hire that next employee because they are holding onto a smaller number of employees than they need, but at an older (higher) prevailing wage. In other words (and from real examples that I've seen myself,) a company may be paying $150k/yr for each engineer that they have, and as a result they do not have the budget to hire a new engineer that was making $150k/yr but is now asking for only $50k/yr.

    I have an all-too-large number of friends in the unfortunate position of looking for jobs in this industry, and many of them have indeed dropped their wage expectations by 2:1, 3:1 and even 4:1, and they are still having a hard time finding work. My point is that I think there is a reasonable middle ground, but it's hard to get there, because there are people that will lose out "in the getting there." The net result is that it will take significantly longer to return to full employment in the IT industry _and_ jobs will continue to go to countries with lower cost of labor. It sucks, but it really is that simple.

    It also doesn't help build trust when executives cut massive numbers of jobs, then salve the pain by giving themselves gigantic bonuses, followed by the almost-immediate rehiring of the _same exact_ jobs using H1Bs (Sun Microsystems is the poster child for this one) or offshoring (IBM just did this in bulk recently.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  53. I have an all-too-large number of friends in the unfortunate position of looking for jobs in this industry, and many of them have indeed dropped their wage expectations by 2:1, 3:1 and even 4:1, and they are still having a hard time finding work.
    After reading your post, and some others on this thread, I think it is clear all developers need to drop their salary expectations and just take whatever "The Man" will give them, becuase if they don't IBM and SUN will offshore the jobs.
    But it's actually much more complicated than that. Many companies can't hire that next employee because they are holding onto a smaller number of employees than they need, but at an older (higher) prevailing wage. In other words (and from real examples that I've seen myself,) a company may be paying $150k/yr for each engineer that they have, and as a result they do not have the budget to hire a new engineer that was making $150k/yr but is now asking for only $50k/yr.
    Finally, if you do happen to have a high paying job, go ahead and ask your boss for a paycut because he might be thinking about offshoring your position, and you want to keep your job don't you?!?!

    Seriously though, it is not 2001 anymore, and as always you have to pay for good work.

    Tim
  54. Help?[ Go to top ]

    Cameron, "t also doesn't help build trust when executives cut massive numbers of jobs, then salve the pain by giving themselves gigantic bonuses, followed by the almost-immediate rehiring of the _same exact_ jobs using H1Bs (Sun Microsystems is the poster child for this one) or offshoring (IBM just did this in bulk recently.)"

    Actually, it does help... the revolution, that is.
  55. Help?[ Go to top ]

    Actually, it does help... the revolution, that is.
    Well, it's certainly true that if your revolution comes, we won't have to worry about anyone getting paid to much ... or eating to much ...
  56. Viva le revolution![ Go to top ]

    kevin lewis, "Well, it's certainly true that if your revolution comes, we won't have to worry about anyone getting paid to much ... or eating to much ... "

    Oh really? Have you ever heard of the American revolution? That seemed to work pretty well... hisotry was written with the idea that people should bear arms, so that should ceos start making so much money that there isn't enough for the rest of us, that we can take up arms and overthrow our oppresive rulers. :)
  57. Viva le revolution![ Go to top ]

    Oh really? Have you ever heard of the American revolution?
    The American Revolution was about freedom ... It sounded like you were referring to something more akin to the Russian Revolution, which had a similar theme to your comment.
  58. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    But it's actually much more complicated than that. Many companies can't hire that next employee because they are holding onto a smaller number of employees than they need, but at an older (higher) prevailing wage. In other words (and from real examples that I've seen myself,) a company may be paying $150k/yr for each engineer that they have, and as a result they do not have the budget to hire a new engineer that was making $150k/yr but is now asking for only $50k/yr.
    I understand what you are saying now: 'Take a paycut, or don't have high salary expectations so your fellow engineers can have a job and feed their family.' Boss man will try any argument that seems to work, as long as he gets to keep more of the profits.
  59. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    I understand what you are saying now: 'Take a paycut, or don't have high salary expectations so your fellow engineers can have a job and feed their family.' Boss man will try any argument that seems to work, as long as he gets to keep more of the profits.
    Right, because of course "Boss man" takes that money and hides it under a pillow. He doesn't reinvest it in the business (generating more jobs), invest it in other businesses (generating more jobs), put it in the bank (where it is loaned to small businesses or homebuyers, creating more jobs) or spend it (which gives other people jobs). Nope. He just puts it in his giant money bin and swims in it like Scrooge McDuck.
  60. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Right, because of course "Boss man" takes that money and hides it under a pillow.
    Well, if a pillow will keep the IRS from finding it "Boss man" may indeed hide it there.
  61. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Right, because of course "Boss man" takes that money and hides it under a pillow. He doesn't reinvest it in the business (generating more jobs), invest it in other businesses (generating more jobs), put it in the bank (where it is loaned to small businesses or homebuyers, creating more jobs) or spend it (which gives other people jobs). Nope. He just puts it in his giant money bin and swims in it like Scrooge McDuck.
    That's one rather idealistic way of putting it, but profits still always come first in line. Second comes increasing productivity of existing workers. Last comes hiring more people.

    What do you guys think interests all of your customers buying all your technology in the first place .... productivity --doing more with less people.

    Like it or not, that's the way it is. Adapt or die.
  62. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Late last year, Sandy Weill retired. Mr. Weill was the CEO of Citigroup, the 7th largest company in the world and the largest financial company in the world. He was paid $250 million in bonuses when he retired.

    Mr. Weill grew the company from a successful, but somewhat modest financial services company. Under his leadership it made billions upon billions of dollars.

    A good CEO is worth every penny you pay them. The problem is that a bad CEO can still earn millions. Maybe not to the extent of Sandy Weill, but still enough that most of us could retire on. I think that is the fundamental problem with executive compensation packages. They reward bad execs even when they fail.

    On the flip side of the coin, what is it that developers do that is worth so much money? I earn a very good living despite having a mere 5 years experience. I certainly earn more than many of my peers in other career fields. I don't have an advanced degree, just a Bachelors. I do have quite a bit more training, and I think the cost of training and education does justify the higher salary somewhat. I can show you places where my work will save my current client millions of dollars. I will not save them billions of dollars though.

    You can sit around and talk about how much you think you should earn, but what makes you so valuable to the company that you actually EARN that money? The day of the code monkey is over. Off-shoring, which I consider a valuable commodity, provides us with all the code monkeys we need at a much more affordable price. We need client-facing people with people skills in addition to their technical knowledge. More people need to get on the project management or architect tracks and quit making a career out of blowing code. Is there really a big difference in skill between someone who has 10 years of coding and 20 years of coding? After awhile, the guy with more than a decade of experience is spending a good portion of his time staying current. I would argue that their experience would better serve them in a mentoring capacity to more junior developers.

    If people are so envious of those who earn high salaries in management, why not work your way towards it. If it's not something that you want to do, then congratulations, enjoying your job is more important to you than wealth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, you choose to stay on that career path. Don't cry to me or anyone else about your pay when you earn a damn good living compared to the average American.

    I really can't think of many career fields that pay as good without an advanced degree that offer the perks it does. In addition to my pay being higher, I can take off for lunch when I please and I work in a controlled environment (ie: "indoors"). I'm well paid, comfortable, and relatively safe. I'm also learning new skills so that I can justify higher pay and I don't plan on spending my entire career just doing software development.

    I also wonder how many of these comments about the "Boss man" are more out of envy then a sense of justice.
  63. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    I also wonder how many of these comments about the "Boss man" are more out of envy then a sense of justice.
    Actually, these comments are just meant to bring out the veiled agenda Cameron is promoting. I own a small consulting company, and I just find it comical when Cameron tries to convince everyone on this board to work for cheap, so I'm trying to keep it real.

    Most of my clients sound just like Cameron, although he is a bit more subtle than the "Boss men" down here in South Texas.

    Profit,

    Tim
  64. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    But you never actually addressed how you justify your salary demands. What makes it worth it to the company to keep wages at dotcom levels in this day in age?

    There is a balance there. Workers will always want more and employers will always want to pay less. Somewhere in the middle there is a balance. It will never be enough for the worker, and too much for the employer.

    The problem with the recent economy is that it put too much power in the hands of the employer. The problem with the dotcom days is that it put too much power in the hands of the workers.

    I still fail to see the problem when we earn more than the average American. I like the little sidestep to my main point, that and the focus on Sandy Weill. I'm not saying execs DON'T earn too much money, but that is irrelevant to how much a developer is actually WORTH.

    But I expect that particular point to continue to be sidestepped.

    The reality is, you're only worth as much as someone is willing to pay you. You have some control over that process, but there is always going to be a ceiling based on market conditions. I prefer a good balance of employer/employee power than what we had in the dotcom days or what we had just last year.
  65. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Actually, these comments are just meant to bring out the veiled agenda Cameron is promoting.
    Wow. I'm absolutely speechless. I'm suddenly a robber-barron boss-man. ("So, Peter, you've become a pirate.") Oh, and I have a veiled agenda now, too. Jeepers, where did all this bad karma come from?

    Timothy, I'm not sure what I did to raise your ire, other than speak the obvious truth. Unemployment occurs when "Pe" (expected price level, which determines the expected wage level) is higher than what a producer is willing to pay. Which part of that do you think is wrong, and which part of this evil plot am I personally responsible for?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  66. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Cameron Purdy != Dr. Evil

    Jeez fellas! Cameron is just stating the economic facts.
  67. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    I'm suddenly a robber-barron boss-man. ("So, Peter, you've become a pirate.")
    Maybe not a pirate, but....

    From the earliest days of the settlement of Virginia by the English, labor was a major problem. The initial settlement at Jamestown comprised a large proportion of "gentleman adventurers" who were more interested in striking it rich quickly than in working-even to feed themselves. It was only after John Rolfe's successful cultivation of a strain of tobacco that would sell in England and Europe that the colony's success was ensured. The resulting boom, however, in which cultivation of "smoke" became the way to wealth, only highlighted the need for labor. The relative abundance of land meant that few were willing to work for others if they could establish their own estate; thus free labor remained scarce, expensive and uncertain throughout the seventeenth century. In order for a planter to secure any profit from growing tobacco, it was necessary to exploit the labor of others. The supply of fit persons to work Virginia's tobacco plantations was therefore of major concern to the large landowners.
  68. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Maybe not a pirate, but....

    From the earliest days of the settlement of Virginia by the English, labor was a major problem. <snip/> The supply of fit persons to work Virginia's tobacco plantations was therefore of major concern to the large landowners.
    You might want to credit your sources in the future: http://www.virtualjamestown.org/essays/costa_essay.html

    Furthermore, what does the need for labor in colonial Virginia prove? The initial solution to this problem was indentured servitude, where people CHOSE to immigrate and be bound to land in the hopes of a better life, and in return for food, shelter, and opportunity. Nobody forced them to leave Europe. What is your point?
  69. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Well, as I predicted they continue to sidestep the main issue at hand about economic realities and how much a developer is truly worth.

    Regardless of whether you earn 531 times as much or just 3 times as much as the average American, I still wonder how greed at any level is justifiable. I don't expect to get that answer from the parties who are on the offensive.

    Fortunately, with their outlook I'll never have to worry about any of them being my boss. I'd take a realist like Cameron over some pie-in-the-sky maniac who believes his greed is ok because its on a smaller scale.

    But you have to give them credit, that piece on Virginia was interesting. Completely irrelevant, but interesting.
  70. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Nobody forced them to leave Europe. What is your point?
    The point is this. It is in the plantation owners interest to keep wages at the lowest possible levels, their success depends on it. Keep that in mind and then reread some of the posts on this thread.
  71. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    I'm not sure what I did to raise your ire, other than speak the obvious truth.
    You haven't rased my ire, it just seems like some of your postings on this thread are pro boss-man. I was simply pointing that out, in order to keep the thread balanced. Obviously, I don't know what you're really like any more than I know Bill Gates.

    Tim
  72. Do the right thing![ Go to top ]

    Late last year, Sandy Weill retired. Mr. Weill was the CEO of Citigroup, the 7th largest company in the world and the largest financial company in the world. He was paid $250 million in bonuses when he retired.Mr. Weill grew the company from a successful, but somewhat modest financial services company. Under his leadership it made billions upon billions of dollars.A good CEO is worth every penny you pay them. The problem is that a bad CEO can still earn millions. Maybe not to the extent of Sandy Weill, but still enough that most of us could retire on. I think that is the fundamental problem with executive compensation packages. They reward bad execs even when they fail. On the flip side of the coin, what is it that developers do that is worth so much money?
    Funny you should mention Mr. Weill, one of the world's all-time biggest crooks, responsible for the fleecing of countless retired senior-citizens' nest eggs! Together with Jack Grubman and Worldcom CEO Bernie Ebbers, these guys pulled off one of the most egregious and massive thefts in the history of the world.

    Watch the story online (highly recommended): http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/view/

    I think your jealousy theory is a bit misplaced, don't you?
  73. ceo??[ Go to top ]

    "A good CEO is worth every penny you pay them"

    LMFAO!!! You IDIOT. You don't have a CLUE. You really want to give that one, 50,000 ft level CLUELESS guy ALL that credit for making that company? Oh man, you're a FOOL.
  74. ceo??[ Go to top ]

    "A good CEO is worth every penny you pay them"LMFAO!!! You IDIOT. You don't have a CLUE. You really want to give that one, 50,000 ft level CLUELESS guy ALL that credit for making that company? Oh man, you're a FOOL.
    Keep in mind, his prototypical "good CEO" made all his money by stealing it from Grandma's retirement account.
  75. Henry Rollins, "Keep in mind, his prototypical "good CEO" made all his money by stealing it from Grandma's retirement account. "

    Didn't you used to sing in a band?

    Anway, you're correct, but that's kind of beside the point; I think we live in a sort of "pop culture" where there has to be a "single face" since people typically have fairly small minds. It's not an option for a group of people to be granted credit for a company being successful, we have to pin it on one superstar and the rest of the mongrels under the table fighting for table scraps, well, they didn't have much to do with it, it was the big shot playing golf all the time and talking on the phone who got us where we are.

    Yeah, that makes sense.
  76. Didn't you used to sing in a band?
    Yeah, I get that all the time (from those with good taste).
    Anway, you're correct, but that's kind of beside the point; I think we live in a sort of "pop culture" where there has to be a "single face" since people typically have fairly small minds. It's not an option for a group of people to be granted credit for a company being successful, we have to pin it on one superstar and the rest of the mongrels under the table fighting for table scraps, well, they didn't have much to do with it, it was the big shot playing golf all the time and talking on the phone who got us where we are. Yeah, that makes sense.
    Trust me, when you're as connected as Sandy Weill, it doesn't matter what the minions do as long as they do what you say.
  77. You're not going to find more than $45/hour in any field, until you've got another degree and at least 10 years of experience behind you.
  78. You're not going to find more than $45/hour in any field, until you've got another degree and at least 10 years of experience behind you.
    That's nonsense. College degrees are one of the most overrated things around. Ten years experience? I've been averaging $65 per hour since the year 2000 and I have a grand total of eight years of IT experience.
  79. Maybe I should have said 'any OTHER field', but as it is, I suggest you stick with IT.
  80. Business folks = herpies[ Go to top ]

    The business folks need to lower their salary...Their management styles are very predictable: manage by politics and not for the success of the product.

    I have seen hordes or business folks that don't even understand their domain but still manage to get in the mix for ego frenzies..

    Someone should write a paper on people bottle necks within software developement..

    Enough of..blame it on the dam programmers..
  81. Wow! Where are you getting $45/hour?
  82. Despite a steady rise in the number of IT jobs being outsourced, demand for workers with Internet-related skills such as Java and networking is helping to drive IT compensation higher, according to a report released by Meta Group. According to the 2004 IT Staffing and Compensation Guide, which is based on surveys of more than 650 large and midsize companies, 45 percent of the companies surveyed plan to pay premiums for IT skills that are difficult to find or retain. Skill shortages are most acute in highly specialized areas such as wireless computing and information security, according to the Stamford, Conn.-based market research and consulting firm. Nevertheless, 72 percent of the respondents said poor morale among IT workers—much of it fueled by budget and staff cuts—is a big problem in their organizations. To try and improve morale, 45 percent of the respondents said they have employee recognition programs in place, while 40 percent offer training and other skill-development opportunities.
    Read: Study: Demand strong for workers with Internet skillsThere has been anecdotal evidence that "things are getting better". What is your experience?
    Hmmm. Did they specify which countries were the pay was going up?

    Makes me doubt the validity of the report when they say things like "Internet-related skills such as Java and networking".

    I'm not seeing it.
  83. Try Dublin[ Go to top ]

    Lots of jobs in Dublin, Ireland -- its become an employee's market again. Only problem is you will earn $60K-$80K as a good developer, you pay 50%+ tax, and the minimum suburban house that your average American would put up with costs $1m+ ... which means you will end up driving 60 miles each way every day on a windy country road at 30mph. Oh yes, and the cost of living is among the top handful of cities worldwide. And did I mention cars are 50% more expensive than the rest of Europe. And they have nearly completed the first ring-road after 30 years, so you will soon be able to do a complete circuit at 5mph. On the upside, the nearest pub is never more than eight inches away, and the Guinness (which is reputed not to travel well) is GREAT!
  84. Over the last six months I have been trying to full 5 java developer positions. In doing this process I have probably done technical interviews on 50+ people. I can honestly say I would have only hired 5 of them.

    There's plenty of people out there looking but the quality is pretty low.
  85. Over the last six months I have been trying to full 5 java developer positions. In doing this process I have probably done technical interviews on 50+ people. I can honestly say I would have only hired 5 of them. There's plenty of people out there looking but the quality is pretty low.
    Well I think I know a possible cause for the low technical ability. I've also encountered the same issue - many candidates but few with the skills and ability I need. Digging a little deeper I found that some of this may have been caused by the lack of ongoing education and training. During the economic slump many employers dropped many programs like book funds, education reimbursement, etc. I know I'm probably going to get flamed by those that feel that it should be the responsibility of the employee to ensure his skills and abilities are up to speed. I agree to a point. It becomes very expensive to shoulder the costs of all on going education. Unless you were one of the lucky few that had benefited by the booming 90's and your salaries are high enough to absorb the education costs - it's very daunting. I've spoken to some consultants for instance that have had to decide between paying the mortgage or attending a week course on the latest Oracle release (a skill required for their marketability). JMHO.
  86. I see your point but I found a lot of people lacking in basic skills like OO and OR mapping. I am not going to be impressed by someones ability to read and recite the J2EE Core Patterns book.

    In terms of training when I have been a permanent employee I have made it a big point that I expect a training budget as part of my comp package. I generally prefer to buy my own books as then they are then my own.

    As a contractor I have always paid for my own training as I am my own employer. :-)
  87. Education?

    Who will teach you such a very practical things that can come only as the result of years of trials and mistakes? Who will teach you the art of software design? Who will teach you how to turn 'development' into 'production'? Is there anybody, who concern issues of pipelining of software production process?

    The lack of talented pupils multiplied by the lack of talented teachers result in ... a lot of middling workers.
  88. Over the last six months I have been trying to full 5 java developer positions. In doing this process I have probably done technical interviews on 50+ people. I can honestly say I would have only hired 5 of them. There's plenty of people out there looking but the quality is pretty low.
    Yea I might have the skills you need, but then again I don't have much of a life. In Europe they live much better than in America. We need to do something about that.
  89. Just curious[ Go to top ]

    "In Europe they live much better than in America."

    In what ways?
  90. Europe[ Go to top ]

    8 week vacations
    Jobs more stable
    Gap in pay between the executives and employees much smaller
    Universal healthcare
    etc.
  91. Europe[ Go to top ]

    8 week vacationsJobs more stableGap in pay between the executives and employees much smallerUniversal healthcareetc.
    - Ehmmmz, can you explain those stable jobs to my last 3 empoyers who had some nice lay-off parties in their companies?
    - 8 week vacation, 60 hour work weeks (over time not being paid, "it's part of the job description"), what ever.
    - Crappy salary when compared to countries like .au and the US, not to mention our tax systems!
    - Gap between executives and employees, christ I wish I was making a 3rd of our CEO is earning.
    - Universal healthcare, where you pay about E 200,- a month for (even if you don't use it).

    And the list goes on and on and on.

    The US isn't better then europe for coders/designers/architects/what-ever-you-call-yourself, europe isn't better then the US. They're both different, with both their ups and downs.

    (This story is based on The Netherlands)
  92. Quality of life[ Go to top ]

    You are right. Quality of life means different things to different people. I'll take the great transportation system, healthcare for everyone, and a more just distribution of wealth anyday.

    P.S. Houses in many U.S. metro areas cost half a million, so those high salaries are not always so high.
  93. Europe != Netherlands[ Go to top ]

    I think France does pretty well here. Much better than the netherlands. This year I have 7.5 weeks vacation. It's almost impossible to fire someone who is at least below average. In my company there is no pressure to work overtime although I usually do just because I really like my project and enjoy my job. Insurance is about $30 for 100% coverage (no copay). The vacation is so nice, it's so refreshing to take a week off or even a long weekend and come back to work feeling refreshed and motivated. I wish the US would increase the vacation. They think it would cost more but I'm quite sure productivity would go up and it would end up costing less.

    As for IT turnaround, I haven't seen it here in France.

    -Michael
  94. Europe != Netherlands[ Go to top ]

    I don't share your idyllic vision of IT jobs in France.
    It really depends on who you work for. Being an IT consultant in France becomes less interesting than working in an IT service of a big company:

    - salaries are lower ( at least that's my experience in a major bank) than the ones of the IT people of your client and have most of the time been frozen since 2001. The only way to get a higher pay is to change for another employer ( you talked about stability?).
    - you get the work that your client employees don't want to do ( it's often uninteresting) and you are often seen as a second-rate worker . And worst, since the market is really bad today, consultants are often overqualified for what they have to do: clients ask for a 10 years experience consultant when a beginner would be enough. Also, due to lack of flexibilty of job market in France , consultants are paid to do a full time job when an employee should be hired to do it ( with all the benefits).
    - when you don't have a contract your consulting company often makes pressure on you to quit or find a way to legally fire you.
    - Consulting companies don't invest a lot on training, they often organize low quality training made by their own employees ( to avoid paying a training made by a software editor or a company specialized in training).

    This alleged stability is fake in consulting companies ( most of the big ones)
  95. Europe != Netherlands[ Go to top ]

    You're right, France has some big down-sides, they do get paid less than the UK, Holland etc. and the tax is rather nasty (around 50-60%). They are, as you said very inflexible but to be quite honest it's really all down to how you get on with the french. A lot of banks have a very anglophone attitude to IT and I've been lucky in finding good bosses in the past.

    They do have a strange consultancy infrastructure though, most consultants seem to work for a consulting company, normally small to medium size and then work through that company like consultants. The main reason for this is that in the UK and many other countries you can set up a company in under 24 hours for just a few hundred $$$s or less. In France it's a nightmare, you need about $20,000 and it can take weeks to set up. Finally you need permission to employ people. Now you see why there are so many French businesses are moving to the UK!

    I lived and worked in France and French speaking countries for about 6 years, each time I set up a company in a third country (not in the UK because I would have had to pay UK tax). If you know the system it's easy but the French don't make life easy, finally when it works they go on strike! :-)

    -John-
  96. Insurance is about $30 for 100% coverage

    I think you have to take a better look to your French pay slip.
    And you will see how much cost the social security insurrance coverage.

    Take a look to the employer's part and salarial's(your) part,add both.

    Also don't forget to add your private Insurrance to be 100 % coverage

    It will be around 8 to 10 % of the salary (employer's part and salarial's part)
  97. "8 week vacations
    Jobs more stable
    Gap in pay between the executives and employees much smaller
    Universal healthcare"

    I've heard the same thing. I mean, we may have a few bill gates in this country, but there are far more in poverty. Studies have shown that citizen contentment is much higher in most socialist countries.
  98. Europe vs US standard of living[ Go to top ]

    "I've heard the same thing. I mean, we may have a few bill gates in this country, but there are far more in poverty. Studies have shown that citizen contentment is much higher in most socialist countries."

    Sorry to dissapoint you, but you are extremely wrong on both accounts. In Sweden, where I come from, the average net yearly income for people is considerably lower than that of african-americans in the US, a group whose demographics is not exactly among the more well of in the US.
    And as for citizen contentment? I have no hard facts on that, but I doubt that is true with the extremely high unemployment (well over 25% of people between 20-65 in Sweden do not work), lacklustre health-care and mediocre education of socialist companies (such as Sweden).
    Even if citizen contentment is higher in socialist countries, who's suprised with state dominated media, an education system groomed to "form good social-democratic citizens" and some 500 government institutions with politically but non-democratically appointed leadership handling the propaganda of "We have the best standard of living in the word, saying anything else is thoughcrime"?

    Sorry for the rant, but hearing that "socialism is the best of worlds" for someone who has had to put up with the crap for the better part of his life is plain insulting.
  99. Europe[ Go to top ]

    Also, there is superb mass transit and bicycle paths galore. I could quit throwing money down the automobile expense rat hole. Plus, there are more castles and Roman ruins in Europe!
  100. Europe[ Go to top ]

    Also, there is superb mass transit and bicycle paths galore. I could quit throwing money down the automobile expense rat hole. Plus, there are more castles and Roman ruins in Europe!
    And don't forget, we have a history that goes further back than a lousy few hundred years. lol
  101. May be other countries[ Go to top ]

    I know no Spanish town where you can come and go cicling. Public bus service is a shame, and just 3 or 4 cities have a decent subway.
    We work over 50 hours a week, average salary rates among 12000€ - 40000€ for technical people, and above 90000€ for managers.
    Some years ago, working with computers was the panacea for all the media. As a result, everybody got to study computer science and telecomunications. Now, we have hundreds of those people looking for jobs. Companies now have what they wanted: cheap workers with fear of being fired.

    The situation at Spain is quite bad. I thought other european countries would be better, but yet I know they don't.
  102. Europe[ Go to top ]

    I am an British ex-pat who works in the Bay Area. My general thought is that working in the US is just different than the UK and you adapt. Just as much as working in the UK is probably different from working in Mainland Europe.

    I would not say the UK is better as it has its own sets of unique issues. For instance you have to be within a commute of London to get a decent job and training, house prices are out of control, the transport infrastructure is falling apart, taxes etc, etc.
  103. Europe[ Go to top ]

    8 week vacationsJobs more stableGap in pay between the executives and employees much smallerUniversal healthcareetc.
    The mindset and culture is surely totally different what comes to working in Europe. I have not seen 8 week vacations though, anywhere :) You might get something close to it after working in a place for 20 years or more. But I do find that the US 2-week vacation is plainly speaking laughable. They have not figured out that giving 4 weeks of paid vacation is better for productivity than 2 weeks....but wait, they have to pay 100K a year, forget about it.
  104. Europe[ Go to top ]

    "8 week vacations
    Jobs more stable
    Gap in pay between the executives and employees much smaller
    Universal healthcare"

    Higher unemployment,
    lower standard of living,
    lower quality healthcare,
    less opportunity to become wealthy through hard work and risk,
    etc.

    You can have it Mr. dodger.

    P.S. Say hello to Mr. Dickens for me ;-)
  105. Europe[ Go to top ]

    8 week vacationsJobs more stableGap in pay between the executives and employees much smallerUniversal healthcareetc.
    Dude, you´re absolutely wrong ...

    Lars (from Europe)
  106. Europe[ Go to top ]

    He's not wrong, he's just confusing the political system of Eastern Europe in the mid twentieth century with the living conditions in Western Europe in the late twentieth century and the pamphleteering of political organizations of the early twenty-first century (with doubled numbers)
  107. Move to Europe? ;)
  108. In Europe they live much better than in America. We need to do something about that.
    Allow me to step in, even though i am going to be quite disorganized in my reply :-).

    I don't disagree but can offer a view on the other side. Take France. They are a very low growth mode. Try to get a 90K$ salary as a software developer: You can forget it. They'll pay you 50K$ to work on low-skilled project, with dating technologies.

    Take Germany, near recession. There are so many IT people on the market that you can dream on to find a full time position, even if you are an architect.

    The problem of most countries of the old Europe, to take Rumseld's expression are huge structural costs due to rigid labor laws and a big welfare system.
    Americains might just say that they should just change it, but it is a choice of the people: They want to keep their social system and are willing to pay the economic price. The politics are not having the guts to lose their jobs. For example, France is under a right-wing government as they won the election with 85% of the votes, but the 35 hours law created by the socialists and communists is still in effect.

    In these countries, you need 2.1% growth rate for a stable (i.e. non growing) unemployment rate. Old europe is far from it, when the states are well above 3%.

    Also, it is my personal experience that most of european countries do not need the level of software engineeting sophistication that we find in the states. They are, generally speaking, less advanced in terms of technology because not willing to take technological risks (due to the same cost structure). Also VC money does not exist there, as the local tax laws are not advantageous for the VC business model.

    These factors take their tool on software development jobs: low skilled, low paid, no risks, high unemployment rate, agressive outsourcing are the main drivers of the market.

    Plus, let's not forget that outside Paris, Berlin, Munich and the few major european cities offering decent salaries, the market is very small, and employers are taking advantage of the small local IT markets to squeeze the hell out of the employees. In the states, cities are usually big enough to offer a good choice to software engineers and, in general, they are more keen to the "work offsite, or from home" idea, something that is not tolerated in Europe yet.

    How does this translate in your life. Our of my 10 immediate neighboors (in Switzerland), 3 are IT engineers. 1 Lotus Notes guy has been out of a job for 18 months and will be forced to sell his house if he does not find a source of revenue in the next 6 months (he has 2 kids...). 1 is a working for a startup which is running out of money. He did not get paid last month, and is aggressively looking elsewhere. The other one is very low paid, but his wife is working so they can paid the mortgage.

    Europe is no easy life... There is definitely no silver bullet in software development :-).
  109. Thanks for the insight into Europe. I'd have to say, as a budding entrepreneur, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. You can start your business and be making money in no time. If an American see's a problem, he also sees an opportunity, and most importantly does something.
    It's just expensive as heck here.
  110. I'm a hiring manager for a small multimedia company in Atlanta and I have had trouble finding quality people as well. My tech interview is horribly weak and I still stump quite a few candidates. I've had senior level candidates with masters degrees who couldn't tell me what a factory is, when it should be used and how to implement it. Same goes for a singleton. Quality developers are difficult to find.

    <begin rant>

    During a phone interview with a guy who claimed over 13 years of experience said that he had worked with EJB 2.0. So I asked him what features of EJB 2.0 he used that went beyond the 1.x specification. I could hear him flipping the pages in a book. He stalled. He continuted stalling. I gave him a minute to look it up. Still, no answer. I brought local references, CMR, EJBQL... he didn't seem to know what I was talking about. Classic.....

    I've got quite a few more stories like this. I was rather turned off by the lack of skills, exagerated salary expectations (one junior developer was looking for 80+ K/year) and lack of professionalism (one guy answered his cell phone in the middle of the interview) that I experienced in my first go round as a hiring manager.

    Here's some advice to those who caim they can't find a job.

    Do some studying

    Know JSPs, EJB 2.0, one of these JBoss/Weblogic/Websphere, one these MySql/Oracle/PostgreSQL, the basic gang of four patterns, XML, and Linux and Windows

    Lower your salary expectations

    Junior $45 - $55
    Mid $55 - $65
    Senior $65 - $80

    And conduct yourself in a professional manner (turn your cell phone OFF during an interview)

    And you shouldn't have any trouble finding a job.

    <end rant>

    In fact, if you're in the Atlanta area feel free to send me your resume. We're not hiring right this minute but will probably be in the next two months.

    Regards,

    --
    Dan Glauser
    Director of J2EE Services
    Roundbox Media
    dan at roundboxmedia dot com
    http://www.roundboxmedia.com
  111. <!--I've had senior level candidates with masters degrees who couldn't tell me what a factory is, when it should be used and how to implement it.-->

    With all due respect Master degree should not be a criteria for hiring some one experienced or knowlegable, specially if their bachelor degree is not in CS. I give you a guarantee that a BS in pure CS is technically much better than a MS in CS with a Bachelor degree in some other major. Again there could be some exceptions... Besides that it is very possible that a 13 years experienced person never has any exposure of design patterns, the key thing is that if he/she has real programming experience they gonna pick these buzz very fast..
     

    <!--During a phone interview with a guy who claimed over 13 years of experience said that he had worked with EJB 2.0. So I asked him what features of EJB 2.0 he used that went beyond the 1.x specification. -->

    It doesn't seem to me a fair question, it is very possible that a good EJB devloper never bothered to keep track of all the sepecification changes.
  112. Specification changes[ Go to top ]

    <!--During a phone interview with a guy who claimed over 13 years of experience said that he had worked with EJB 2.0. So I asked him what features of EJB 2.0 he used that went beyond the 1.x specification. -->It doesn't seem to me a fair question, it is very possible that a good EJB devloper never bothered to keep track of all the sepecification changes.
    No one pulled him to spit out the particular version number. Anyway, if "a good EJB developer never bothered to keep track of all the sepecification changes", then he'd probably stuck in dark ages of version number one.
  113. Specification changes[ Go to top ]

    <!--Anyway, if "a good EJB developer never bothered to keep track of all the sepecification changes", then he'd probably stuck in dark ages of version number one. -->

    You are absolutaley wrong in rephrasing me,I never said that. All I said is that it is very *possible* that you are a good EJB developer but you don't know the version game and which feature is part of whcih version of EJB.

    BTW after all it is not too bad if you stuck with version 1.0 of EJB and still living in the dark ages, it means no mandatory support for entity beans that equates to really prodcutive code minus all the buzz. Don't you think that I deserver a better job and high salary becuase I am still living in the dark ages:-) How ironic my friend...
  114. Lower your salary expectations

    Junior $45 - $55
    Mid $55 - $65
    Senior $65 - $80

    And conduct yourself in a professional manner (turn your cell phone OFF during an interview)

    And you shouldn't have any trouble finding a job.
    Moral of the Story:

    Developers are in general underqualified and disrespectful, so they should agree to work cheap.
  115. Lower your salary expectations[ Go to top ]

    Lower your salary expectations

    Junior $45 - $55
    Mid $55 - $65
    Senior $65 - $80


    <rant>
    I've always found the usual "cap" on senior engineer/architect salaries to be very saddening. One talented engineer/architect is worth 100 mid-level engineers. These are the people who "really get" software. They are the critical difference between project success and failure. Give them a customer or analyst to harass for requirements, and they deliver a working system, by hook or by crook.
    </rant>

    Dan, if you had as much leeway as you wanted, how much would you pay for an engineer that would be the most technically competent individual you have ever worked with? Do you really stand by $80K? (If so, remind me to immediately discard any offers from Roundbox Media).

    God bless,
    -Toby Reyelts
  116. I'm a hiring manager for a small multimedia company in Atlanta ... During a phone interview with a guy who claimed over 13 years of experience said that he had worked with EJB 2.0. So I asked him what features of EJB 2.0 he used that went beyond the 1.x specification. I could hear him flipping the pages in a book. He stalled. He continuted stalling. I gave him a minute to look it up. Still, no answer. I brought local references, CMR, EJBQL... he didn't seem to know what I was talking about. Classic.....I've got quite a few more stories like this.
    Give me a break. How about another one of those hilarious, "I interviewed this one guy and he sucked," stories! Yeah, yeah, we all love to hear those stories, they are so funny and unbelievable. People are dumb, and all that ...
    I was rather turned off by the lack of skills, exagerated salary expectations (one junior developer was looking for 80+ K/year) and lack of professionalism (one guy answered his cell phone in the middle of the interview) that I experienced in my first go round as a hiring manager.
    And, what does that tell you about yourself?
    Here's some advice to those who caim they can't find a job. Do some studyingKnow JSPs, EJB 2.0, one of these JBoss/Weblogic/Websphere, one these MySql/Oracle/PostgreSQL, the basic gang of four patterns, XML, and Linux and Windows
    I have some advice. Don't waste your time interviewing with this guy. If you do, make sure you can see both of his hands above the table.
    Lower your salary expectations
    Haha! You'll pay me what I accept and like it.
    Junior $45 - $55Mid $55 - $65Senior $65 - $80And conduct yourself in a professional manner (turn your cell phone OFF during an interview)And you shouldn't have any trouble finding a job.<end rant>In fact, if you're in the Atlanta area feel free to send me your resume. We're not hiring right this minute but will probably be in the next two months.Regards,--Dan GlauserDirector of J2EE ServicesRoundbox Mediadan at roundboxmedia dot comhttp://www.roundboxmedia.com
    Bwahahaha ....
  117. dirty laundry lists[ Go to top ]

    You should let them know ahead of time what the laundry list is for your test so they can study. I'd get on my cellphone looking for another job if I knew the recruiter was just trying to stump me...because I'd of accidentally ended up in front of you. Better yet, why don't you train people if you are so particular about what you want them to know. Then you'll have something better to do than put down people who aren't stupid enough to sit around memorizing the answers to your questions and somebody who is looking to hire talented programmers can interview them.

    I remember you, you were the guy who asked me what method in the String class could replace a character in the string and when I said none you looked at your answer sheet, saw 'replace', and said nope, wrong answer. You recruiters are immutable.
  118. "The business folks need to lower their salary...Their management styles are very predictable: manage by politics and not for the success of the product."

    VERY good quote. I get sick of seeing the ever-increasing gap in pay between ceo's and workers, it's truly disgusting, then we see guys like the hiring manager onthis thread asking us to lower our salary expectations - FU! YOU lower YOURS! Most managers are just overglorified secretaries unless they came from a development background. Most of the time all they do is get in the way.
  119. I get sick of seeing the ever-increasing gap in pay between ceo's and workers, it's truly disgusting, then we see guys like the hiring manager onthis thread asking us to lower our salary expectations - FU! YOU lower YOURS!
    No kidding. You know what the average CEO salary was in 2000? 531 times the average employee's salary. I think I need to repeat that. 531 times. Let me say it again so that it can sink in. 531 times. It's quite logical that senior engineers/architects, who are 100x more productive than mid-level engineers, should only make about 25% more, but CEOs should make 53100% more, right?

    Tell me again who needs to change their expectations? Something tells me that there needs to be some meeting in the middle here, and engineers aren't the ones who need to be moving on down.

    God bless,
    -Toby Reyelts
  120. No kidding. You know what the average CEO salary was in 2000? 531 times the average employee's salary.
    There seems to be somekind of cult of 'heroes' in the US where the top dog takes it all. It is reflected widely in the whole American culture. There always has to be a 'star' to make things right.

    One of the reasons why CEOs in large companies might get paid so much is that a company needs their 'star'. In reality they have very little influence in how the company is doing and they can never succeed without a good staff. Due to the star cult, the successes and failures are accounted to the CEO, when really his total contribution to the failures or successes is only marginal (he is afterall just one person).

    Another reason to the salaries is the consequence of the star cult. CEOs get fired without their own fault to polish the public image of the company. To get a new star (who consequently just gets fired) they have to feed the cult and image with cash. The point is that the star quality is hard to find.

    So, eventually the salaries in no way reflect the real productivity of CEOs in any way or manner. They get paid for their star quality and image which in constrast can not be readily measured.
  121. It's quite logical that senior engineers/architects, who are 100x more productive than mid-level engineers, should only make about 25% more, but CEOs should make 53100% more, right?
    Wanna know why? See here: http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2004024403618.gif

    Thank god the PHB offers at least an alternative! :)

    Cheers,
    Lars
  122. Lower your expectations[ Go to top ]

    Lower your salary expectations

    Junior $45 - $55
    Mid $55 - $65
    Senior $65 - $80

    And conduct yourself in a professional manner (turn your cell phone OFF during an interview) And you shouldn't have any trouble finding a job.
    At those rates plumbing and auto repair pay better. Health care pays _much_ better. Utility companies (e.g. gas and electric companies) pay their engineers better, and offer actual job security.

    But I suppose if you insist, here's the quality of developer I expect you'd get for those prices you're offering:
    Junior: Graduated college with a liberal arts degree and is willing to take any tech job to get on a career path that pays the bills and has a future.
    Mid-level: Knows enough to be dangerous. You'll spend more time cleaning up after him than you save from his code.
    Senior: Knows more buzzwords than you can shake a stick at, as a result of sitting around reading trade rags for the last 10 years. Can't/won't code.

    I'm sure all three are available in sans cell phone varieties.
    Quality developers are difficult to find.
    I'm sure at those rates they are difficult to find. Lots of quality developers already have jobs that pay more than that. And as a mid-level engineer I got offered substantially more than your top-end senior figure just the other week. To all you quality developers out there: don't give up! Things are picking up and there are still companies who respect you.

    Anecdotally, I think the initial article is right. I've been offered three jobs in the last month, and without looking. Hasn't happened for a while. Leading indicators (e.g. the components business) are up. It's slowly coming back.
  123. Lower your expectations[ Go to top ]

    It's amazing how many comapnies don't understand the simple concept of "you get what you pay for" when it comes to hiring. They would rather hire someone cheap, create a mess and then then pay a bundle to have a "real" engineer clean it up.

    There seems to be an effort, although not likely to succeed, to turn software into commodity, depress the salaries and make engineers easily replacable. As a result, it's prevalent to hire candidates based on a simple checklist of skills. But the interviewer has to do lot better than that to find the true gems. In my long technical career I have found that it's not that hard to judge a company by the nature of the interview questions and the way the interview is conducted.

    Pranab
  124. Lower your expectations[ Go to top ]

    It's amazing how many comapnies don't understand the simple concept of "you get what you pay for" when it comes to hiring. They would rather hire someone cheap, create a mess and then then pay a bundle to have a "real" engineer clean it up. There seems to be an effort, although not likely to succeed, to turn software into commodity, depress the salaries and make engineers easily replacable. As a result, it's prevalent to hire candidates based on a simple checklist of skills. But the interviewer has to do lot better than that to find the true gems. In my long technical career I have found that it's not that hard to judge a company by the nature of the interview questions and the way the interview is conducted.Pranab
    The fundamental problem here is that, for whatever reason, we're seeing more and more technical managers without technical experience.

    Software development seems to work best when it works like the military. You've got your young bucks, grizzled veterans, and reluctant leaders. The most immiediate supervisor should have experience in the skillset of the people they are supposed to be leading. A higher level manager doesn't necessarily need the same skillset, but they should have at least worked in technology in some capacity before trying to manage multiple technology teams.

    The real tragedy is that when these non-technical managers go to hire technical staff, they haven't a clue what to look for.

    You are right about you get what you pay for. On one side, I think some people aren't being very realistic about the market. On the other hand, too many employers are trying to pay below what is a fair market price. A good senior developer is worth more than $60K annual.

    Expectations should be tempered with realism. However, I believe there is a balance there. The market is good enough that an experienced developer should not have to take a significant pay cut to gain employment. In fact, in 2003 I lost my job and when I rejoined the workforce I increased my pay. I am now making over $10K a year more than when I lost my job and I really love my work. I think I'm fairly compensated for my work. I'm not greedy, earn a good living, and I don't believe I place an unfair strain on my employer for retaining my services. If they fail to keep up with my increase in knowledge than I'm confident I can find a new employer who will ensure my pay reflects my value.

    Be realistic, but don't settle. I think more people just need to be honest about what they are really worth.
  125. Lower your expectations[ Go to top ]

    The other point is, that if you are a hot shot senior developer/architect who is 100x as productive as the typical mid-level programmer, you don't DESERVER more than $60,000-85,000 a year if you insist on taking your money from the corporate trough. Nor is the Corporate World beholden to pay you what you are 'worth.' In the America I was born in, if you had the talent, you'd go out and make your own money instead of enhancing shareholder value for some other CEO. In fact, I think if you still in your cubicle after 10 years, you're probably not worth nearly as much as you think, and probably a good deal less than you are already paid.
  126. Lower your expectations[ Go to top ]

    Nor is the Corporate World beholden to pay you what you are 'worth.'

    I see - the whole "greed is good" thing. It's perfectly moral to screw your employees as much as possible. It's a good thing I make as much as I do, otherwise I'd never be able to afford paying the PeachCare taxes that go to the dual-income families with parents who work full-time at WalMart (earning Sam Walton billions of dollars), but still can't afford to feed their own kids.

    In fact, I think if you still in your cubicle after 10 years, you're probably not worth nearly as much as you think

    Some of us have kids and a mortgage and are a little more cautious with our careers then in our younger days. Counter to your intuition, that doesn't mean that we're morons. Then some of us write one-of-a-kind software that gets praise from Sun's compiler team (http://retroweaver.reyelts.com), or software that gets used by CERN, Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, Northrop Grumman, BBC, Carnegie Mellon, etc... (http://jace.reyelts.com/jace), or design and implement top-notch SCM systems based on leading-edge algorithms research (http://www.caps.com).

    I'm thankful for what I have, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't press for what I feel I'm "worth". If that were the case, I'd surely be making the same $40K/yr I was making a decade ago - After all, that's a lot more than starving people make, and it's really best if the company can screw me, right?

    In the America I was born in, if you had the talent, you'd go out and make your own money

    In the America I live in, people strive to quickly fake a company as exciting and luring as possible in the hopes that they'll be bought out by somebody like Microsoft or IBM. In the America I live in, corporations win contracts not by most competently meeting business needs, but rather through their salesmens' abilities in the most arcane art of wining and dining. In the America I live in, monopoly lawsuits and investigations are the order of the day. Perhaps you should double-check your country of residence.

    Well that was fun.

    God bless,
    -Toby Reyelts
  127. Lower your expectations[ Go to top ]

    Nor is the Corporate World beholden to pay you what you are 'worth.'I see - the whole "greed is good" thing. It's perfectly moral to screw your employees as much as possible. It's a good thing I make as much as I do, otherwise I'd never be able to afford paying the PeachCare taxes that go to the dual-income families with parents who work full-time at WalMart (earning Sam Walton billions of dollars), but still can't afford to feed their own kids.In fact, I think if you still in your cubicle after 10 years, you're probably not worth nearly as much as you thinkSome of us have kids and a mortgage and are a little more cautious with our careers then in our younger days. Counter to your intuition, that doesn't mean that we're morons. Then some of us write one-of-a-kind software that gets praise from Sun's compiler team (http://retroweaver.reyelts.com), or software that gets used by CERN, Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, Northrop Grumman, BBC, Carnegie Mellon, etc... (http://jace.reyelts.com/jace), or design and implement top-notch SCM systems based on leading-edge algorithms research (http://www.caps.com).I'm thankful for what I have, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't press for what I feel I'm "worth". If that were the case, I'd surely be making the same $40K/yr I was making a decade ago - After all, that's a lot more than starving people make, and it's really best if the company can screw me, right?In the America I was born in, if you had the talent, you'd go out and make your own moneyIn the America I live in, people strive to quickly fake a company as exciting and luring as possible in the hopes that they'll be bought out by somebody like Microsoft or IBM. In the America I live in, corporations win contracts not by most competently meeting business needs, but rather through their salesmens' abilities in the most arcane art of wining and dining. In the America I live in, monopoly lawsuits and investigations are the order of the day. Perhaps you should double-check your country of residence.Well that was fun.God bless,-Toby Reyelts
    Criteria:

    - Do something you enjoy (creating software).
    - Raise a family.
    - Make gobs of money.
    - Do it honestly.

    Pick three.
  128. True[ Go to top ]

    Toby, "In the America I live in, people strive to quickly fake a company as exciting and luring as possible in the hopes that they'll be bought out by somebody like Microsoft or IBM. In the America I live in, corporations win contracts not by most competently meeting business needs, but rather through their salesmens' abilities in the most arcane art of wining and dining. In the America I live in, monopoly lawsuits and investigations are the order of the day. Perhaps you should double-check your country of residence."

    Absolutely correct. We basically live in an economic 'survival of the fittest' jungle here. It seems at odd with such a legal system so concerned with etchics.

    I would add to your comments, "in the America I live in, great innovation is often STOMPED by big gorilla businesses like m$"

    Reagan was quoted as saying "the difference between big business and small business is that the small business needs govt to get out of the way so it can become a big business."


    Actually, we need MORE checks and balances to make competition fair in this economic system. Even if govt "got out of the way" the small business would just be CRUSHED by all the big guys.

    I love the political and legal system we have here, but our economis system needs an enima. It's WAAAY too bust and boom (just as Einstein predicted years ago in his essay on socialism) and needs way more checks and balances and HARSH penalties for CEO's who make huge mistakes then turn to outsourcing jobs to cover them up.
    What a typical, silver spoon, clueless statement.
  129. Speaking of clueless statements ...[ Go to top ]

    http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,93831,00.html

    I wonder where Gartner purchases their crystal balls. Anyone know? I really could use one.
  130. F you arron, you arrogant punk![ Go to top ]

    Aaron, "The other point is, that if you are a hot shot senior developer/architect who is 100x as productive as the typical mid-level programmer, you don't DESERVER more than $60,000-85,000 a year if you insist on taking your money from the corporate trough. Nor is the Corporate World beholden to pay you what you are 'worth.' In the America I was born in, if you had the talent, you'd go out and make your own money instead of enhancing shareholder value for some other CEO. In fact, I think if you still in your cubicle after 10 years, you're probably not worth nearly as much as you think, and probably a good deal less than you are already paid. "

    F you.
  131. auto repair?[ Go to top ]

    At those rates plumbing and auto repair pay better.
    I have a friend here in Boston who took a job in auto repair after he lost his job doing software development, and now he is making $16/hr, and he has five kids (two now in college) and a mortgage.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  132. auto repair?[ Go to top ]

    I have a friend here in Boston who took a job in auto repair after he lost his job doing software development, and now he is making $16/hr, and he has five kids (two now in college) and a mortgage.
    He must be working at Walmart changing batteries, because most mechanics make more than that.
  133. auto repair?[ Go to top ]

    I have a friend here in Boston who took a job in auto repair after he lost his job doing software development, and now he is making $16/hr, and he has five kids (two now in college) and a mortgage.
    That's must better than this Canadian job listing ;-)

    BTW, lots of friends of mine tell me that trucking industry is full of people driving big rigs with all sorts of degrees and previous work expierences: Psychology, Philosophy and History, Communications/Journalism and recently, EE and CS.
  134. Lower your expectations[ Go to top ]

    At those rates plumbing and auto repair pay better. Health care pays _much_ better. Utility companies (e.g. gas and electric companies) pay their engineers better, and offer actual job security.
    Those services aren't easy to globalize. However, information technology is.
  135. I'm a hiring manager for a small multimedia company in Atlanta and I have had trouble finding quality people as well. My tech interview is horribly weak and I still stump quite a few candidates. I've had senior level candidates with masters degrees who couldn't tell me what a factory is, when it should be used and how to implement it. Same goes for a singleton. Quality developers are difficult to find.<begin rant>During a phone interview with a guy who claimed over 13 years of experience said that he had worked with EJB 2.0. So I asked him what features of EJB 2.0 he used that went beyond the 1.x specification. I could hear him flipping the pages in a book. He stalled. He continuted stalling. I gave him a minute to look it up. Still, no answer. I brought local references, CMR, EJBQL... he didn't seem to know what I was talking about. Classic.....I've got quite a few more stories like this. I was rather turned off by the lack of skills, exagerated salary expectations (one junior developer was looking for 80+ K/year) and lack of professionalism (one guy answered his cell phone in the middle of the interview) that I experienced in my first go round as a hiring manager.Here's some advice to those who caim they can't find a job. Do some studyingKnow JSPs, EJB 2.0, one of these JBoss/Weblogic/Websphere, one these MySql/Oracle/PostgreSQL, the basic gang of four patterns, XML, and Linux and WindowsLower your salary expectationsJunior $45 - $55Mid $55 - $65Senior $65 - $80And conduct yourself in a professional manner (turn your cell phone OFF during an interview)And you shouldn't have any trouble finding a job.<end rant>In fact, if you're in the Atlanta area feel free to send me your resume. We're not hiring right this minute but will probably be in the next two months.Regards,--Dan GlauserDirector of J2EE ServicesRoundbox Mediadan at roundboxmedia dot comhttp://www.roundboxmedia.com
    I have the skills you are looking for. I don't even own a cell phone because I don't have enough money for it anymore. Almost, every interview I get I receive a job offer. To bad the country has turned to Fascism, or I might send you my resume. Low pay and insane skill sets alone don't keep me away, but Fascism does.
  136. Travis:
    To bad the country has turned to Fascism, or I might send you my resume. Low pay and insane skill sets alone don't keep me away, but Fascism does.
    Sound familiar?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  137. Rumors of fascism[ Go to top ]

    Don't you love how people who know nothing of what life is really like here in the US make sweeping statements about our country based solely on rumors they spread amongst themselves?

    It's envy, my friends, as the Swiss study mentioned in this article makes clear.
  138. ANOTHER advocate for outsourcing article.

    10% unemployment in a SKILLED trade is a STRUCTURAL change in any economy.

    IF we had the relatively low UE rates that we had during the late 90s early 2K I would agree with giving out work visas.

    We DONT have those low UE rates any longer meaning MOST visas should be taken back until we do.

    Remember the saying; be careful of the man who'll give you the shirt off his back.
  139. will work for $0.00[ Go to top ]

    Lower your salary expectationsJunior $45 - $55Mid $55 - $65Senior $65 - $80And conduct yourself in a professional manner (turn your cell phone OFF during an interview)And you shouldn't have any trouble finding a job.
    I'll work for $0.00 and at just 50% of those sum I would save on your J2EE project budget. Just give me such an opportunity and visa.

    Joke, or ... may be not ;-)
  140. Strong Demand and No Demand[ Go to top ]

    I think that the comment about short term contracts for SPECIFIC SKILLS is quite accurate. If you are an above average software developer (whether you are called architect, programmer, or something else) and you have demonstrated experience in a technology a company is looking for, you can find contract work pretty easily. In some cases, you can sign on as an employee if your skills closely match what they want. The technical recruiters (3 total) who are friends/acquaintances tell me that they have no interest in 90% of the candidates who submit resumes as they don't have the basic (specific) skills that employers are looking for. They also say that companies are very selective when hiring someone as an employee and most will hire them for a 3 to 6 month contract before even considering them as an employee. The other case is a company is "in a deep hurt" and is willing to pay up to get the people they think will bail them out. They have also said that the conditions vary by market and region of the country.

    In the end, I think the comment:

    "plan to pay premiums for IT skills that are difficult to find or retain"

    is accurate, though it speaks to a very small percentage of the software developer community. I would also say that the highly skilled IT professionals suffer no morale problems while the greater percentage (>90%) who are not experts or highly skilled in one of these areas would have poor morale (as they may worry about their job or pay being cut).

    sj
  141. Kiss My Java[ Go to top ]

    I'm think people in the U.S. have been and will continue to leave Engineering and Science fields for Business, Health, and Law.

    Current Labor and Statistics Algorithm for U.S. Employment:

    package us.employment;

    import lifesucks.under.tyranny.*;

    class JobsUtil
    {

    private JobsUtil()
    {
    }

    public static void findWork(Worker worker)
    {
       //The factory allows for runtime career
       //changes using Reflection..
       CareerInterface career =
          careerFactory.getInstance(worker);

       WantAds wantAds =
          Paper.getInstance().getWantAds();

       if(career.pay == Pay.LOW)
       {
          worker.quit();

          if(worker.isRich())
          {
             worker.retrain(wantAds.getHotCareer());

          //Note: Starts new worker thread
          //findWork is called again when
          //new job.
          //career != wantAds.getHotCareer()
             worker.start();
          }
          else
          if(worker.isPoor())
          {
             if(worker.isDigruntled())
                worker.attemptAttackOnOldBoss();
             else
             if(worker.isSuicidal())
                worker.attemptSuicide();
             else
             {
                HomelessPersonInterface hpi =
                   (HomelessPersonInterface) worker;
                Police.pickup(hpi);
             }

             if(worker.isAlive() &&
                !worker.isPrisoner())
             {
                if(worker.isBrave())
                {
                   worker.setCareer(
                      new SelfEmployed());
                }
                else
                {
                   worker.setCareer(
                      wantAds.getRandomHourlyJob());
                }

                if(USPatriotAct.isActive())
                {
                   if(worker.isDislikeByFeds())
                   {
                      Slave slave = (Slave) worker;
                      Police.pickup(slave);
                //Note: Start enslavement processing
                      if(slave.isPoor() &&
                         slave.isStillAlive())
                      {
                         slave.start();
                      }
                   }
                }

                //Note: Start new worker thread at
                //new job.
                //Hope this one lasts longer
                worker.start();
             }
          }
       }

       //Workers not in this method are employeed.
       //Sure...
       USLaborAndStatistics.removeUnemployed(worker);
    }

    }


    Note:

    A close look at this code will reveal that everyone will eventually be employed according the U.S. Government. Sure by 2010, 4 million will be in jail, 10,000 will be detained, and the rest will have low paying jobs except for the elite, but who cares we are at war right. Income after inflation is down 32 of the last 34 years. Only 44,000 FFL dealers are left compared to 300K+ in the late 80’s. Build warbots, bioweapons, clones, nukes, or whatever else you can and fight against tyranny! Yea, I know you don’t want to fight for anything. You drink, smoke, and **** your way to contentment while you accept blood money through redistribution of wealth. Well eventually the majority will be on my side as the economy continues to slowly collapse. Your guns are almost worthless against the police state and soon they will be completely worthless. Fight now while you still have a chance.
  142. Quite logical[ Go to top ]

    I find some logical reasons to this IT trend:

    - The advent of new technologies, specially the Wireless ones will make IT investment much more productive to bussiness. Big companies require IT experts to adapt to the new UMTS and WiMax era.

    - The "natural selection" of software platforms: A few years ago it was Pascal , VB, Perl, C, C++, Java, COBOL, Windows, Unix, CORBA, COM/DCOM,... Finding a group of people with common and enough skills to develop a serious software appliance was a nightmare. Those days all heads to TCP/IP, XML, Java and to a lesser extend to .Net and other high productivity platforms (SQL, Python, JavaScript, UML...). That will make IT people concentrate of developing solutions and not to fight technology.
  143. Is my client unusual?[ Go to top ]

    I'm listening to you. Is my client unusual? They need at least 5 full time permanent java programmers (employment not contract). I think the dollars are fair for the market and flexible because they are willing to look at a variety of levels...qualified jr to senior levels. I asked if you techies were so loyal to your employers that no one can find you. I'm told "no way." So how is it recruiters (like me) are looking everywhere to no avail. Yes, people do respond to Monster/Dice/etc. but not many of you with experience. (I work independently and cannot post on Monster/etc. or I would never recover from the deluge.) As a non IT specialist(uh oh, trouble)please (kindly) offer me insight regarding your job searches and networking. By the way, unsolicited calls from recruiters are a great way to stay informed and increase your own network. Share here or at marilyn at memsite.com .
  144. Is my client unusual?[ Go to top ]

    Few of us are so loyal to our companies that we wouldn't entertain better opportunities. The problem is virtually every contact I have with recruiters tends to be of the type: "I've got this job and they want to fill it today very cheaply!" which means the recruiters and companies lean towards those who do not have a job.

    While I can't blame them, I personally find it annoying and so I only have a very few recruiters I keep on a network list. A good recruiter is someone with whom I can work as a partner and with whom their corporate clients can also work as a partner to reach a solution beneficial to all involved.

    Cheers
    Ray
  145. fair market[ Go to top ]

    Junior $45 - $55
    Mid $55 - $65
    Senior $65 - $80
    ====================

    Dan,

    IMHO, almost all senior level you are looking for already have a job, or no trouble at all in finding one quickly, and most likely earn more your mark. So the employer side's story that it is hard to find good programmer is also true. The result, you have to pay more than what good programmers earn to get them transferred to your company.

    I submitted my resume to you 4 month ago... Now it appears I asked a little bit more.

    Supply and demand - simple as that.

    -George