The debate over Java, and whether it should be open-sourced is an old one. The wounds have been opened again recently, so a panel has been scheduled for the last day of JavaOne which will feature, among others, Java creator James Gosling, IBM's Rod Smith, Stanford Law Professor Lawrence Lessig and IT publisher Tim O'Reilly.

Hopefully a real debate can cut to the chase, and everything can be placed on the table. This will be a lot better than having this topic discussed year after year on blogs, communities, and mailing lists.

Read more: Sparks may fly at open source Java debate

Nice idea in theory but don't do it guys, JSR works nicely!

-John-

john++

Comparing the stability of the APIs that come from sun and the JCP against APIs from groups like Jakarta, I'd be happy Sun to maintain ownership of Java. A camel is a horse designed by committee and all that ;)

I think that Sun is doing a pretty good job with this as well, they maintain backwards compatibility fairly well between versions and they document most of the API calls in a coherent manner. I don't see the real value in makeing Java Open Source other than some other company could then claim to have the most developers working on Java. Why Open Source it?

(a) So the community can submit patches?
    -- I'm sure Sun would welcome patches

(b) For frequient builds?
    -- With 1.5, Sun's actually publishing weekly drops - This is way cool (and surprising that they are doing this), we should stop beating up on them and encourage them to keep making weekly drops available to everyone

It will be interesting to hear the debate and see what (if anything) new and interesting comes out of it. I personally would like to see IBM stop whining and be more like Apple and try innovating with their JVM implementation.

Rob
http://www.robsite.org

I think that Sun is doing a pretty good job with this as well, they maintain backwards compatibility fairly well between versions and they document most of the API calls in a coherent manner.

It just demonstrates one of JAVA flaws, I am talking about "autoversioning".

Don't worry .. within three years there will come a replacement for Java .. it is in the nature of the beast. There is only so much mutation a species can absorb before it desires extinction.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!

<!--Don't worry .. within three years there will come a replacement for Java .. it is in the nature of the beast-->

We don't know what it would be, but the name of the beast will be Java:-)

Dont get me wrong about this- I am a Java programmer and think it is a wonderful solution for many of todays computing needs- but-Actually I think it will be ForTran XX (05 or whatever) that will outlast any current language. After having 1st started computer programming with FortranIV when the then-president ate peanuts I think it has proven to be much more resilent and long living than any other language (with actual business applications) for whatever reason....I don't think it can fade away or die- it just keeps going......Maybe Java can learn a lesson from it and somehow join it! I can't wait for Object Oriented Fortran- or JavaTran- maybe in 2010!

Yes java is here to stay no matter whatever comes it way

Don't worry .. within three years there will come a replacement for Java .. it is in the nature of the beast. There is only so much mutation a species can absorb before it desires extinction.Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!

I started to read your email and thought, oh no it's Rolf. What a relief, it's just you Cameron!

My vote is that the beast will be Java 3, ask that one at JavaOne!

-John-

Ok, I am confused now: are they proposing Open Sourcing Java's specification or implementation?

Henrique: Ok, I am confused now: are they proposing Open Sourcing Java's specification or implementation?

Everything of course, but they never do it.

IMO ask Sun to opensource Java is asking too much.
You should be satisfied if Sun stopped using the TCK's to earn money and stopped destroying the business for companies like Excelsior and in general do as little as possible and leave the real work to IBM.

"Abstract discussions are entertaining, but we must keep ourselves focused on dynamic, rather than static processes."

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

I'll take that bet. Java is the COBOL of the 21st century. It will be around for many years to come.

Don't worry .. within three years there will come a replacement for Java

I actually remember James Gossling at a conference saying that he thought Java would meet most computing needs for the next 10 years or so shortly after it was released. Its about 9 years old now but to me shows no obvious signs of slowing down - indeed the level of enhacement and innovation in the Java world continues to amaze me. I suspect it might be around for a few more years yet!

On the open source debate I'm also of the view the Sun does a pretty good job with the JCP. Since the source is also included in the JDK for download/reading/education purposes (and bug fixing come to that), and the bug parade and other aspects mostly seem to work pretty well, I struggle to see what going to a full open source model would really achieve - and, of course, it risks MS or other competitors creating incompatible platform dependent versions of Java which I would personally like to avoid (I got badly burned in the very early days of Java applets - not an experience I want to repeat)! I know Sun has all the problems that any big company has, but I admire them for trying to change things and work in a more open and intelligent way.

IMHO it would be more interesting get a group of industry developers/thought leaders together who have strong feelings on the subject for and against. They could explain their feelings and discuss.

Maybe we could organise this for the symposium next year if there is enough interest and it is still relivant.
:-)

David

Before we even discuss this matter I would like to know what exactly is wrong with the current setup. I agree that SUN is being protective about its baby but the community has been allowed to pamper it through JCP.

I sometimes do have fun at the expense of my friends at SUN by my 'I want Java open sourced before SUN goes bust' shout :) but the fact is I am really happy with the way SUN takes care of 'our' baby. Unless the moving to 'open source' provides us with a significant advantage over the current state of Java affairs I don't see a need for this discussion.

Besides there are other dangers of open sourcing Java. The Reds, Blues and other interested parties can flood the community with enough developer to gain control (not entirely sure of this :) ).

Before we even discuss this matter I would like to know what exactly is wrong with the current setup. I agree that SUN is being protective about its baby but the community has been allowed to pamper it through JCP. I sometimes do have fun at the expense of my friends at SUN by my 'I want Java open sourced before SUN goes bust' shout :) but the fact is I am really happy with the way SUN takes care of 'our' baby. Unless the moving to 'open source' provides us with a significant advantage over the current state of Java affairs I don't see a need for this discussion.Besides there are other dangers of open sourcing Java. The Reds, Blues and other interested parties can flood the community with enough developer to gain control (not entirely sure of this :) ).

What's "wrong" with the current setup is that IBM don't control the platform and ESR has no way to destroy it in favour of his own baby (Perl) (of course IBM and ESR don't use those terms).
Given that that's all that's wrong with it I don't see anything wrong with it...

It is amazing how many Java developers that want Sun to go on mistreating the Java platform. If Java is opensourced they envisage some bearded leftist open source developers instead of an Eclipse like foundation stewarding java.

What's "wrong" with the current setup

What is wrong with the current setup is that you are "loosing the war". Java is gradually becoming irrelevant. No big J2EE projects with expensive EJB technology are started anymore. Every week comes a new "mutation". Next week Mono 1.0 is released, an international ISO standard with an open source implementation that has all the signs of becoming the main desktop develop language on Linux, Java's own territory. BEAS stock continues to plunge and nobody counts on Sun surviving more than 2-3 year at most.

That what is wrong with it.

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

No big J2EE projects with expensive EJB technology are started anymore

Funny how every six months or so I start a project at a new client on big expensive J2EE project. I've been doing this for the past eight years (Java) and past five years with J2EE. I see no signs of it abating.

As to "open sourcing" Java. I don't see it broken, so don't fix it!

The need for open source is the same as it has always been: so that bugs can be diagnosed and fixed by users, independently of the vendor, who may not be motivated to fix them or capable of fixing them in a timely manner. This applies just as much to the JVM as it does to any software, from a small utility up to operating systems.

I am working with a JVM that is based on Sun's code but customized, by a certain *extremely* large vendor whom I shall not name, for their own operating system that is essentially a mainframe OS underneath a UNIX personality layer. It displays various anomalies. I say "anomalies" instead of "bugs", because I do not have the resources (i.e., the source code) to definitively diagnose them; but it is profoundly unthinkable that the vendor will correct these anomalies. Perhaps they are even my fault: if I had the source to the JVM, I would be able to figure that out. But I don't, so I have to blunder around blind, trying to dream up this or that workaround on no better basis than trial-and-error.

It is amazing how many Java developers that want Sun to go on mistreating the Java platform. If Java is opensourced they envisage some bearded leftist open source developers instead of an Eclipse like foundation stewarding java.

What's "wrong" with the current setup

What is wrong with the current setup is that you are "loosing the war". Java is gradually becoming irrelevant. No big J2EE projects with expensive EJB technology are started anymore. Every week comes a new "mutation". Next week Mono 1.0 is released, an international ISO standard with an open source implementation that has all the signs of becoming the main desktop develop language on Linux, Java's own territory. BEAS stock continues to plunge and nobody counts on Sun surviving more than 2-3 year at most.That what is wrong with it.RegardsRolf Tollerud

As log as we, the developers, believe in Java and work as we did until now to keep Java on the edge, I strongly believe that Java is here to stay no matter what other people/Microsoft do or say. ;)

Razvan C.

No big J2EE projects with expensive EJB technology are started anymore.

Rolf,

Go to Jobserve type EJB and Search you'll find there are quite a few jobs there.


Carl

<quote>It is amazing how many Java developers that want Sun to go on mistreating the Java platform.</quote>

It's even more amazing how many open source supporters believe that they are privy to some higher understanding of the situation, that the rest of us somehow, don't get.

<quote>Java is gradually becoming irrelevant. No big J2EE projects with expensive EJB technology are started anymore.</quote>

... but not as amazing as the small number of them who seem to be living in a parallel universe.

<quote>If Java is opensourced they envisage some bearded leftist open source developers instead of an Eclipse like foundation stewarding java.</quote>

MMmmmm ... well let's look at this shall we? Your average Java developer reads "Java is becoming irrelevant"; so he checks the jobs pages and finds a glut of Java jobs still crying out to be filled.
She reads "No big J2EE projects with expensive EJB technology are started anymore."; and finds loads of EJB projects starting up left, right and center.
Are you surprised that they are questioning the credibility of the 'open source Java movement', when some of you are making bizarre statements like this?

<quote>Mono 1.0 is released, an international ISO standard with an open source implementation that has all the signs of becoming the main desktop develop language on Linux, Java's own territory</quote>

Well, have yet to see a really big Mono project on Linux yet; but when it happens, good luck. I just hope you all have enough cash to fight MS when they start enforcing some of those patents ... :-)

Java is gradually becoming irrelevant.

Really

No big J2EE projects with expensive EJB technology are started anymore.

You seem to be missing the facts again. Aren't you misplacing Java with J2EE somehow, and if you think J2EE is bad aren't you thinking entity beans in fact? Common. There's 1000 articles and opinions and all agree J2EE has it's place. We used J2EE in places that we never should. That gave it a bad name. But I suppose that means evolution. Now that has been corrected (Spring, hibernate and another hundred not that well known) and we won't get there again. But I think this has been discussed hundreds of times before.

Every week comes a new "mutation". Next week Mono 1.0 is released, an international ISO standard with an open source implementation that has all the signs of becoming the main desktop develop language on Linux, Java's own territory.

:-) I can't wait to move to Mono. In the meantime you can stop whining and start contribute to porting Spring to .NET. Make yourself useful for the language you prise so much.

BEAS stock continues to plunge and nobody counts on Sun surviving more than 2-3 year at most.That what is wrong with it.RegardsRolf Tollerud

I thought Java is not Sun since long time ago. Software is a tough market. They may or may not resist. However that has nothing to do with Java.

Hmmm. I wonder what Java can be used for if not J2EE/Only Serverside.

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-bluespace/

Too bad Java is becoming irrelevant. (sarcasm)

Next week Mono 1.0 is released, an international ISO standard with an open source implementation that has all the signs of becoming the main desktop develop language on Linux, Java's own territory

I do not get it. Mono could become the biggest weakness of Linux. How are you going to fend off Microsoft when they start their law suits? What an opportunity for Microsoft to slam Linux if Mono were to become popular. They will find a way to poop the party.

Next week Mono 1.0 is released, an international ISO standard with an open source implementation that has all the signs of becoming the main desktop develop language on Linux, Java's own territory

I do not get it. Mono could become the biggest weakness of Linux. How are you going to fend off Microsoft when they start their law suits? What an opportunity for Microsoft to slam Linux if Mono were to become popular. They will find a way to poop the party.

I agree. I think this was part of their plan all along. Their trump card. And I think I said as much quite a while ago (check back issues of JDJ).

Does anyone seriously think that Open Sourcing Java is going to solve any of the problems we’re complaining about? When’s the last time you had to pour over mountains of incomplete docs and API guides to figure out how some fantastic OS tool worked? Is that what you’d like to see in OS Java?

How about GUIs – Do you really want to see Java-lite built on SWT competing head-on with Java-pure built on Swing? So now users and developers would choose which flavor of Java to align themselves with before embarking on a new project?

Would it help things on the Server side – the who conundrum of EJBs and the lot is something of a badge of courage for a lot of Java gurus (ok fine, me too), but is completely an exercise in intellectual bombast and useless complexities in deployment, development and maintenance! The guy who let the idea of programmer-written XML deployment descriptors out of the shop should be packed in a neat little box and mailed off to Redmond… our little Trojan horse for the micro-softies. What of the needless headaches in setting this and that environmental variable, enforcing this synchronicity and that version control… all by hand!! Heavens!! These are not new problems, but in the case of Visual Studio for example, they have been relegated (rightly, I might add), to IDE responsibilities!! Now, how in the world can one imagine people who swear by vi and emacs, to understand the need for automation and rapid development?

Would OS-ing Java help develop a better JRE for client machines – hardly! The model to go by is Macromedia’s flash, which sits rather inconspicuously on a client machine, without taking up tens of megabytes, without requiring 10 seconds to start up, and without rendering awkward GUIs when it finally does come up. That, unfortunately, requires a lot of foresight, tight integration across various platform APIs, and most importantly… money.

In the end, I doubt there’s very much Sun will be able to do by itself on Java without the close participation of IBM, BEA, Oracle and Borland. Fortunately, that’s what the JCP is all about… and while it may be slow at times, it keeps version compatibility high on the agenda, and half-baked crap out of the gold editions.

Voila! How about that?? May we be asking for JCP 3.0, rather than Open Source Java?

The thing that a lot of people miss in this whole discussion is, who owns the specs to the Java language, and specifically, who owns the rights to the "classpath" libraries?

This other business, about SWT, or IDEs, or the speed of which new features appear in Enterprise Solutions are all red herrings. The core language neither aids nor hinders their development; if SWT remains an extension to the core product, so be it...

These are not new problems, but in the case of Visual Studio for example, they have been relegated (rightly, I might add), to IDE responsibilities!! Now, how in the world can one imagine people who swear by vi and emacs, to understand the need for automation and rapid development?

You don't have to have an IDE to achieve automation and rapid development. Have you not heard of projects like XDoclet that do alot of this meta data generation for you?

I personally use Eclipse not vi and/or emacs. However, I am in no way locked into use Eclipse as the only means to generate, build and deploy my J2EE applications. A simple/obviouis example of this that I can run Ant inside of Eclipse, or I can run it outside of Eclipse. I lose zero functionality when outside of Eclipse. This is exactly the way I want it, and imo that's the way it should be.

Since IDEs like Visual Studio are not free, the makers of the product are certainly more inclined to lock you into the IDE environment by, as you say, relegating many things to that IDE.

I prefer not to be locked into one IDE. So basically the premise that EJBS are a "conundrum" because there isn't a single wiz bang IDE that does all the grunt work is just plain silly and uninformed.

I think this is one area that Java has gotten right. Sure, there are alot of choices in Java in terms of how you develop and deploy applications, but to me, that's a strength, not a weakness.

I use VS.Net 2003. I still have to edit the "deployment descriptors". And when I do, it is a pain. I can find no direct explanation on how to fix the problem. And then when there is a Windows patch, my stuff gets reset [I have no idea how] and I have to fix it again.

There is something to be said for knowing how magic works.

(BTW, did anyone hear me again cussing out Windows, VS.Net, IIS6 and COM Interop last night?)

If Sun will come up with new license for distributing JRE and JDK, to allow it to be packaged in any OS (linux, windows, Mac, you name it) then no need to open source java.

The only problem i see now, is that most linux free distributions cannot include JRE or JDK in distribution.
And this does not allow ship java apps and dev. tools with linux.

If Sun will come up with new license for distributing JRE and JDK, to allow it to be packaged in any OS (linux, windows, Mac, you name it) then no need to open source java.The only problem i see now, is that most linux free distributions cannot include JRE or JDK in distribution.And this does not allow ship java apps and dev. tools with linux.

Tell me something, how many people do really need java in their desktop?

Yes, developers do need it. But they can download it from the web.(They do download 100s MBs from web. why not java?)

And most of the java stuff is done is server side,and end user see only a html page, which does not need java.

For the proliferation Linux, there is no need to package java as part of OS. Neither Windows includes java (now a days).

And open sourcing is not going to solve any problem. (infact it will create more stinky jvms. I am so fed up with this open source screaming! For me, Quality of Software is important rather than pricing itself. A software cannot earn respect just because its open source!)

And most of the open source project give next-to-non support. Yes, I can see the source code and fix the problem. But I am interested in getting my application up and running, dont have time to dig into some crappy source files which does not give any proper document.

At the end of the day, time spent on looking at the source is more costlier than buying a commercial software.

Its again, Total cost of Ownership!

It is amazing how many Java developers that want Sun to go on mistreating the Java platform. If Java is opensourced they envisage some bearded leftist open source developers instead of an Eclipse like foundation stewarding java.

What's "wrong" with the current setup

What is wrong with the current setup is that you are "loosing the war". Java is gradually becoming irrelevant. No big J2EE projects with expensive EJB technology are started anymore. Every week comes a new "mutation". Next week Mono 1.0 is released, an international ISO standard with an open source implementation that has all the signs of becoming the main desktop develop language on Linux, Java's own territory. BEAS stock continues to plunge and nobody counts on Sun surviving more than 2-3 year at most.That what is wrong with it.RegardsRolf Tollerud

Gee - have you compared the average number of posts/thread from theserverside.com vs theserverside.net?

Razvan: "Gee - have you compared the average number of posts/thread from theserverside.com vs theserverside.net?"

That is because if you try to post in TSS.NET you are immediately attacked by anonymous rabid "Slashdot zealots" of the worst kind. That is not a problem in itself, I can handle that. But if you retaliate in the same vain you get a reprimand. That leaves you no options, and you must turn your attention elsewhere. The responsible for TSS.Net is a Java guy.

If it had been some justice in the world I should have been responsible for TSS.Net. Then you would see it blossom!

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

The responsible for TSS.Net is a Java guy.

Was? Seems to me he is enamored with .Net.

Razvan: "Gee - have you compared the average number of posts/thread from theserverside.com vs theserverside.net?" That is because if you try to post in TSS.NET you are immediately attacked by anonymous rabid "Slashdot zealots" of the worst kind. That is not a problem in itself, I can handle that. But if you retaliate in the same vain you get a reprimand. That leaves you no options, and you must turn your attention elsewhere. The responsible for TSS.Net is a Java guy.If it had been some justice in the world I should have been responsible for TSS.Net. Then you would see it blossom! RegardsRolf Tollerud

MS zealots have attacked Java and its developers here at TSS for years, and this haven't hindered TSS (or Java) from blossoming too.

My dear Henrique,

MS zealots have attacked Java and its developers here at TSS for years

If you can not discern between my posts and the ramblings of for instance "just a software developer" I propose that you go to the shools you been to and demand your money back.

I am in fact a little surprised that you attack. You yourself never retort to the language of these anonymous zealots and have in fact on occasion showed good judgment.

Maybe we shall go back a couple of years and examine in retrospective light who that has had the best judgments?

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

My dear Henrique,MS zealots have attacked Java and its developers here at TSS for yearsIf you can not discern between my posts and the ramblings of for instance "just a software developer" I propose that you go to the shools you been to and demand your money back.I am in fact a little surprised that you attack. You yourself never retort to the language of these anonymous zealots and have in fact on occasion showed good judgment.Maybe we shall go back a couple of years and examine in retrospective light who that has had the best judgments?RegardsRolf Tollerud

I haven't even mentioned either your name or anyone else's, so this comparation comes from you only, not from me.

I do not attack Java, just trying to adjust the worst cases of hyperbole.

Henrique: I haven't even mentioned either your name or anyone else's

Even so, what others "defenders of the crown" (MS) are there here? You will not find any. Microsoft developers do not attack people that think otherwise in the same way as Java zealots do.

Maybe you can point out some of these "MS zealots have attacked Java and its developers here at TSS for years"? So we have something to compare with.

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

I do not attack Java, just trying to adjust the worst cases of hyperbole.Henrique: I haven't even mentioned either your name or anyone else'sEven so, what others "defenders of the crown" (MS) are there here? You will not find any. Microsoft developers do not attack people that think otherwise in the same way as Java zealots do.Maybe you can point out some of these "MS zealots have attacked Java and its developers here at TSS for years"? So we have something to compare with.RegardsRolf Tollerud

You can find one here and here.

"nosce te ipsum"

Excellent. Now we have something to compare with! As I said, Cameron is a special case I will not even begin to sum up all the epithets that Cameron has called me among where Ninja is one of the least offensive. All only for telling the plain truth on some parts of J2EE and Java that is now generally accepted.

And here is an example of what happed to me when I tried to be active in TSS.Net. :)
http://www.theserverside.net/common/printthread.tss?thread_id=23630

But I do not expect you to empathy. Sense of proportions is not among the Java community guy’s strong points.

I am sure that many would like to go back and erase what they said, but unfortunatly "Factum fieri infectum non potets".

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

"Factum fieri infectum non potets"

I believe that you mean "Factum fieri infectum non potest." If you're going to give people sh*t in latin, you should at least splel corerctly.

As for my Oxford education that you enjoy referring to, I do actually have a copy of The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (a wonderful book!), which you should try utilising -- particularly the latin phrases -- to sound a bit more superior to the rest of us commonfolk. (Notice how I cleverly spelled "utilising" with an "s" instead of a "z" to reflect my British education.)

Peace,

Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!

So you used your book to catch me with a spelling mistake Cameron? If you had followed my advice and visited the "library" some times you would not have to use a "book of quotations" at all. And if you had had a British education you would not have the taste of poetry that you display at your weblog!

Now it is midsummernightseve here in Sweden, you have to excuse me, happy week-end to all!

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

"If you had followed my advice and visited the "library" some times you would not have to use a "book of quotations" at all."

As far as I know, he isn't homeless or doesn't have an internet connection. So I don't know why he needs to go to the library. :)

I often wonder why J2EE guys so often goes two and two and I have come to a conclusion.. one can read and write and the other enjoy intellectual company.

I'm not a "J2EE guy".

... intellectual company.

Are you referering to "2 by 2"? Same could be true of ".Net guys". Where is your intellectual counterpart?

I'm not a "J2EE guy"

My apologies Mark, it was not aimed at you and I was just having a bad day anyway.

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

I often wonder why J2EE guys so often goes two and two and I have come to a conclusion.. one can read and write and the other enjoy intellectual company.

No wonder why you got treated like that back at TSS.Net. People reap what they sow.

But I do not expect you to empathy.

Don't expect to be taken seriously too, after all that you have said here at TSS.

If it had been some justice in the world I should have been responsible for TSS.Net.

The irony is complete.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!

After the fantastic support they provide, and seeing so many open source project in sourceforge and so many greate framework of frameworks, it stinks whenever i see a open source project.

Whats exactly the need to make java open source? Greate implementations? Oh!!! Fix your house first!!

The fact that Java is being given for free, and the commitment of Sun that keep pushing it forward is enough. The Java community should be thankful for this.
No business company should give up it's properties (even for noble ideas), if it want too keep them.

D. Orbach
http://www.javasight.com
Javasight - A view to the java world

No business company should give up it's properties

I understand that position, then perhaps you can understand our position too!

A language should not be property. If Sun will not change its license of Java it will be forked, like so many times before in IT history. Search internet and learn the history behind why there is GNOME for example, when KDE is sufficient. So as I said it will be forked - wait - It is forked already! It is too late then, the damage is already done. "Sic Transit Gloria Mundi", when you are too greedy you loose all of it.

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

No business company should give up it's propertiesI understand that position, then perhaps you can understand our position too!A language should not be property. If Sun will not change its license of Java it will be forked, like so many times before in IT history. Search internet and learn the history behind why there is GNOME for example, when KDE is sufficient. So as I said it will be forked - wait - It is forked already! It is too late then, the damage is already done. "Sic Transit Gloria Mundi", when you are too greedy you loose all of it.

.NET will fork too if MS doesn't opensource it. Get a grip on yourself Rolf.

If Sun will not change its license of Java it will be forked, like so many times

Here's a little something for you to read:

Some technologies are very hard to implement or are being phased out by components in the Longhorn time frame. In some cases, we feel that they are not crucial to the future of the open source desktop.

System.EnterpriseServices and System.Management come to mind, and we are unlikely to put any resources into the task. We would gladly host the code if someone cares to implement it, but they would likely remain unsupported features of Mono.

That came from the Mono RoadMap page by the way. Now how important these services are is unimportant ... this is a fork. And this is precisely what Sun is trying to avoid with Java. You are completely free to develop you own Java-type system. You could do this anyway, whether Sun open-source it or not. But rather than do this, the OS community decided a safer option was to build an incomplete copy of a system owned by Microsoft.

Mmmm ...

This is a rather moot discussion, as I said the damage is already done. But post analysis can be fun too, "learn from history to avoid further mistakes".

Why MS succeeded to convince Open Source to make a copy of .NET (yes, they are very happy about it) is because they turned over the core language and compiler technology to a standards body.

Why should Sun have the rights to Java? The international community took up Java and made it what it is today from Sun's "toy language for TV-Top devices". Sun's contributions are very small, even if you don't detract all the disasters they have done (EJB 1.0, Petshop, fake TCK's, strange distribution rules et al).

IMB has 10 times as many developers working on Java as Sun, why should they pay license fees to Sun. Do you think that is fair?

Article from JavaWorld 1999,
Sun Microsystems Inc.'s foot-dragging on the standardization of Java

"There are a number of significant parties that will not let Sun become the dictator and demise of Java," one developer said. "There are a lot of companies bigger than Sun that are putting a tremendous amount of faith in the fact that Java is going to become a standard. These companies have bet the farm on Java, and they aren't going to let Sun screw that up."

They were quite right. They were screwed.

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

Rolf, come back to the real world please.

System.EnterpriseServices ...

How odd. Every "app" I've done so far in .Net has referenced that.

<!--A language should not be property. If Sun will not change its license of Java it will be forked, like so many times before in IT history. -->

It is not completly true in case of Java since Java is much more than a language, more importantly it is a platform to develop robust enterprise applications. Besides that, do you know how long it takes to make a small change in languages like C/C++, ask the people who participate in the ANSI C/C++ committe. We definiltly can not afford these delays in Java world, specially if you want to compete with a 900 pound gorilla (.NET). I can not imagine how some one in the right mind advocate an open source Java, unless one wants to kill Java.

Although I'm generally in favour of OSS (they're not perfect but at least I can fix their mistakes myself) I'm ambivalent on Java. I feel that Sun has done an amazing job with Java. It is superbly crafted, a piece of art; Java was build with a passion to do it right. The Java API is very well documented, thoughtfully designed and implemented; Java gives us real OO - through the VM finally the programmers defined the computer.
For whatever inscrutable reasons Sun has shown that the big guys can (in some ways) be good guys. What I fear, like all Java programmers is that it can't last. Will Sun lose their soul? Will they just go bust?
Java is too pretty to die. I think that we would all sleep a little better if there was a safety net, a hope of Java beyond Sun. Simply loosening the redistribution licensing would be a start - then if disaster strikes we could stick with the last "true" version; a complete Open VM (doesn't have to be Sun's) would be even better. Completely opening Java offers the nearest to abolute security, yet would represent a tremendous loss to Sun who's only fault has been to do their work too well.
It cuts to toe core of the whole Software/IP debate, I know I don't have the whole answer.

Because I can't resist a soap box, here's my ode to Java:

I see Java as somewhat of a landmark in the computing landscape; it isn't perfect but it has raised the bar for computing.
Java gave us what we needed, as C, C++, Fortran etc did before and like those [im-]famous examples Java is here to stay.

Java made great strides for a widely deployed general purpose programming environment

* VMs brought us cross platform operation, and more importantly, a completely unprecedented level of dynamic linking and introspection - imagine life without reflection and class loaders

* Also via the VM: Tightly integrated REAL security - security managers, Policies, AccessContollers, Permissions & signed code; to date most applications have hardly scratched the surface, but they tried (pity JAAS took so long, and J2EE doesn't bear thinking about)

* again thanks to the VM: Exceptions for dummies, those neat little stack traces show you exactly what went wrong, all the user has to understand is how to send you the trace.

* An integrated documentation standard - try to imagine life without javadocs

* structured namespace and scoping - not exactly new ideas but package names and inner classes have made life better

I'd better stop before I get completely carried away. Perhaps it is just the ephemeral glow of youth, (perhaps it's just that I didn't sleep much last night,) but Java seems to have an aura of conceptual purity that places if among those few programming languages that will outlast the decade of their birth.