The Mono Project releases version 1.0

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News: The Mono Project releases version 1.0

  1. The Mono Project releases version 1.0 (107 messages)

    The Mono Project, an effort led by Miguel de Icaza and Ximian (now part of Novell), releases version 1.0 of the Mono project, an open-source ECMA CLI-compliant implementation. But, Mono also consists of a cross platform IKVM Java runtime engine.

    More details can be found at http://www.mono-project.com/about/index.html, and downloads for Mono can be reached at http://www.mono-project.com/downloads/index.html. Release notes for Mono can be found http://go-mono.com/archive/1.0/index.html, and a licensing FAQ can be found at http://www.mono-project.com/about/licensing.html.

    It will be very interesting to see just how well this technology performs compared to Java on Linux and especially how it competes in the enterprise market. It certainly looks very promising, since this now opens up the Linux operating system (among other platforms) to the C#/.NET developer. Several interesting questions persist, however:
    1. Will there be much interest in the .NET platform in Linux, from either the traditional Linux (open-source) community or the traditional Microsoft/.NET community?
    2. Will the performance of the Mono runtime match that of the CLR on Windows? Will the performance of the Mono runtime be acceptable on other platforms?
    3. Will Mono be able to catch up to the new features coming as part of the .NET 2.0/Whidbey release?

    Threaded Messages (107)

  2. Mono is Mondo[ Go to top ]

    Just some into on the questions:
    1. There is a HUGE interest in .NET on Linux. Life doesn't revolve around the pure .NET and pure J2EE developer. Companies who are heavily invested in .NET would like Linux as an option. If Mono was fully supported on Linux and Mac, my currnet project probably wouldn't even be Java.
    2. From what I can tell, the performance is very good even if it's not dead on. It's certainly acceptable just as Java on Linux is acceptable.
    3. The Mono guys have their work cut out for them, but Microsoft has some sort of support they're providing to the Mono guys as well. So it's very likely that they will.

    Personally if Mono can take my .NET assmebly for a web serivce, and run it on Linux, then that is freak'in cool. However .NET tech as a desktop application is totally out from what I've read, because the new UI manager in Longhorn makes all the currnet .NET winforms null and void.

    So I guess if you need cross platform desktop apps, then Java is still the only way to go.
  3. Mono is not Multiple[ Go to top ]

    Mono's readmap doc states that System.EnterpriseServices and System.Management APIs won't be implemented, so it means distributed transactions and such are out of rule. So if desktop is not their primary focus, neither high end complex entreprise systems would be, given the lack of these APIs. Where would mono aim reside, then? Web services? ASP.NET sites?

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  4. again?[ Go to top ]

    But Henrique, System.EnterpriseServices (just a thin wrapper around COM/DTS) is as old and unfashionable as EJBs. And if you still persist using outdated techniques why do you not use Tuxedo then as you already have been told in TSS.NET forum > http://www.otpsystems.com/DotTux.html

    As I said before, to be so extremely interested and waist so much time talking endlessly about those faulty and broken solutions is a sign of unhealthiness. It's like an old gramophone record, Persistence-Transactions, Persistence-Transactions, Persistence-Transactions, Persistence-Transactions in infinities. Please talk about something else.

    Let the market decide what to do with Mono. They always do.

    At least it is an Open Source Implementation of an Industry ECMA/ISO Standard and Open source has long been rhodomontading how much better their methods are than commercial companies. Let's see if the braggaderio holds true.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  5. again?[ Go to top ]

    Let the market decide what to do with Mono. They always do.
    Are you kidding? Microsoft will decide what to do with Mono, and they certainly will have nothing to do with Linux. Once Microsoft revamps its entire toolset, as they do every three or four years, Mono will be just as worthless as Visual FoxPro.
  6. This is a great moment in history. Once again the indominable spirit of man has breaked free of its shackles, kiss goodbye to Sun and Microsoft!

    Timothy: "Microsoft will decide what to do with Mono?"

    Allow me to laugh. First of all, Microsoft has indirectly soft funding the Mono project though Mainsoft, for example the whole VB Mono implementation was given to them by Mainsoft. That will certainly not help Microsoft if they decide to file a lawsuit.

    Second, the anti-trust issues won't help out MS either. Novell would love to get into a legal fight with Microsoft as well as several other parties including Miguel Icaza, potentially costing MS quite a bit of money.

    Almost all of mono is derived from the ECMA documents, which state rather clearly (with formal waivers signed by Microsoft) that anybody is free to create their own implementation of those standards. Mono and dotNet are two totally different pieces of software with already several classes that is not part of .NET. It is embrace and extend from the other side! :)

    Third, Avalon/Xaml is no threat to C# or other Mono/.NET languages. XAML is build upon and depend on C#, only WinForms is affected which the Mono team do not have put down a great deal of work on anyway, just an API around Winelib (the main effort was Gtk#). Avalon is a very long term project that will not begin to gain traction before in 6-7 years at least.

    Henrique: "So we can safely say that Mono doesn't compete with EJBs, whose primary focus _is_ distributed systems."

    We leave the broken and faulty EJBs to you Henrique, so we are free to pursue the world of SOA and Webservices.

    Kudos to Icaza and the Mono team! Freedom and democracy always wins.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  7. This is a great moment in history. Once again the indominable spirit of man has > breaked free of its shackles, kiss goodbye to Sun and Microsoft!We leave the
    > broken and faulty EJBs to you Henrique, so we are free to pursue the world of
    > SOA and Webservices.Kudos to Icaza and the Mono team! Freedom and democracy
    > always wins.
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    Every now and then I come back to this forum to see if this duracell bunny has ran out of batteries.. Seems that the paychecks keep coming still.

    'Freedom and democracy'? And you hope so?
  8. Mono 1.0 Beta 1
    Miguel de Icaza: 7 May 2004

    40,000 downloads in the first few hours
    http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3351561

    Mono 1.0
    Miguel de Icaza: 30 Jun 2004: Mono 1.0 is out

    We vastly underestimated the Slashdot effect. There were 85k hits in the first hour since we went live, and then the machine collapsed under the weight and has remained in that state despite repeated attempts to get some data out of it. None of the betas really had this problem, we got some mild load, but today the load on the machine was insane.
    http://www.go-mono.com/monologue/

    Regards
    ROlf Tollerud
  9. "Microsoft will decide what to do with Mono?" Allow me to laugh. First of all, Microsoft has indirectly soft funding the Mono project though Mainsoft, for example the whole VB Mono implementation was given to them by Mainsoft. That will certainly not help Microsoft if they decide to file a lawsuit.Second, the anti-trust issues won't help out MS either. Novell would love to get into a legal fight with Microsoft as well as several other parties including Miguel Icaza, potentially costing MS quite a bit of money.Almost all of mono is derived from the ECMA documents, which state rather clearly (with formal waivers signed by Microsoft) that anybody is free to create their own implementation of those standards.
    People forget, as many do, that the EcmA stuff concerns only the cli (eg Roto) and the C# language specs themselves - not the .NET framework( and that includes System.Collections et al).I also remember from an article somewhere that the Mono team had only chatted briefly once or twice with Microsoft and that was at that very inception of the projects, and that Ximian itself admitted that Microsoft could drop a spanner in the works at any time.
     "So we can safely say that Mono doesn't compete with EJBs, whose primary focus _is_ distributed systems."We leave the broken and faulty EJBs to you Henrique, so we are free to pursue the world of SOA and Webservices.<br>
    Whilst you're decrying the state of System.EnterpriseServices - what about System.Messaging, the namespace for MSMQ - in Mono all the Messaging stuff had been left out (when I last checked the code), so, Rolf, I really don't think you're quite there when you talk about SOA. Quite how Microsoft intends to enable SOA when 90% of the .NET API's are linked to only MS products (System.Messaging being a prime example) escapes me, beause I have pondered this in my head.<br>
    <br>

    --Calum
  10. Calum:
    "Rolf, I really don't think you're quite there when you talk about SOA. Quite how Microsoft intends to enable SOA when 90% of the .NET API's are linked to only MS products"
    WSE 2.0
    What is stopping any language/platform to expose and consume WSE 2.0 services?

    And when you are at it, check also,

    Secure, Reliable, Transacted Web Services: Architecture and Composition

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  11. WSE 2.0What is stopping any language/platform to expose and consume WSE 2.0 services?And when you are at it, check also,Secure, Reliable, Transacted Web Services: Architecture and CompositionRegardsRolf Tollerud
    I still contend that my point is still valid - System.Messaging (for example - there are others) is not available in Mono so there are applications that will not port even if they are developed in Windows and compiled under Mono. Just assuming that WebServices automatically solves these issues, is just sweeping things under the carpet, IMO.

    Service Oriented Architectures are not just magically realised through coding Remote Facades into your architecture via Webservices, there are a whole raft of issues and changes in the way you design software.

    On the subject of WS, how long, in your opinion, do you think it will take to get all of the WS-* specifications (mentioned in the article you referred me to) ratified to a 1.0 version with fully compliant and interoperable implementations and toolkits. For instance WS-AtomicTransaction and WS-Coordination?

    --Calum
  12. not perfect yet[ Go to top ]

    Yes you are right in that applications that use products that is MS specific like System.EnterpriseServices, that uses COM+ and System.Messaging that use MSMQ will not port so easily - that is in the nature of things. That is not any fault of the Mono. Only time will tell if there will appear "pure" .NET versions of those services. Platform compatibility is only one side of the matter though. Everything points to that Mono will be a great success on developing "Linux only" applications. And the great majority of apps will still port.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  13. again?[ Go to top ]

    But Henrique, System.EnterpriseServices (just a thin wrapper around COM/DTS) is as old and unfashionable as EJBs. And if you still persist using outdated techniques why do you not use Tuxedo then as you already have been told in TSS.NET forum > http://www.otpsystems.com/DotTux.htmlAs I said before,
    I don't want to be locked in some vendor's proprietary API. But it seems .Net doesn't give me any choice... to be so extremely interested and waist so much time talking endlessly about those faulty and broken solutions is a sign of unhealthiness. It's like an old gramophone record, Persistence-Transactions, Persistence-Transactions, Persistence-Transactions, Persistence-Transactions in infinities. Please talk about something else.I'm sorry Rolf, but ignoring a problem won't make it go away.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  14. outdated????[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,
    System.EnterpriseServices are outdated? Is there any alternative in .NET for
    transaction management?
    Henrique's points about Mono are totally right.
    Mono cannot be an alternative(at least serious one) for an enterprise platform
    due to its lack of, or ignorance for, transaction management issues.
    Do you think that just implementing data access api will let us to develop serious enterprise apps? I dont think so like
  15. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    System.EnterpriseServices class library is outdated for two reasons.
    For the first because there are better solutions to distributed transactions called WSE.
    Secure, Reliable, Transacted Web Services: Architecture and Composition

    For the second because System.EnterpriseServices is only a thin wrapper layer around COM+ which is done in C i.e., not managed code.

    That said even if COM+ is outdated it is not as outdated as EJBs! If you are stubborn enough to make things in the old way COM+ still outperforms EJB in all directions, speed, reliability and productivity. And you can also use Tuxedo from both .NET and Mono.

    Everything is relative as people in this forum so easily tends to forget.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  16. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    old way COM+ still outperforms EJB in all directions, speed, reliability and productivity. There are better solutions to distributed transactions called WSE
    really ? I have never written anything in COM+, but what you claim sounds at least very biased. Can you provide some meaningful arguments ?

    I write transactional EJB's almost every day but I couldnt use COM+ at all, because my EJB's have to be multiplatorm !

    And what is WSE ? It's never mentioned in that link you posted ! The article describes transactional WEB services. Are you going to use WEB services to access you'r database ? After all DB is first thing what you want to be transactional.

    If this MONO doesnt support transactions then how can it be used to write anything except "hello world". Or there is some way to do it via ADO ?

    best regards,
    Maris Orbidans
  17. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    There are many benchmarks to show that COM+ outperform EJBs, for instance The Middleware's own benchmarks. But can you nor reason out for your self that C is faster than Java?

    And for Mono, I mentioned several times that you can use Tuxedo from Mono right now. This solution will also port to Windows. Or you can use CORBA. And regarding Distributed transactions do you not have any counterpart to WSE 2.0 in the your world? Remember that Tuxedo, Corba, COM+ and Web Services all work across both language and platform boundaries, everything does not have to be Mono/C#. The service could even be provided by EJB! :)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  18. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    There are many benchmarks to show that COM+ outperform EJBs, for instance The Middleware's own benchmarks. But can you nor reason out for your self that C is faster than Java?
    C being faster than Java thus favoring COM+ over EJB is also one of the most stupid arguments I have ever heard.

    Also it's very questionable, have you read this ?
  19. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    There are many benchmarks to show that COM+ outperform EJBs, for instance The Middleware's own benchmarks. But can you nor reason out for your self that C is faster than Java?
    C being faster than Java thus favoring COM+ over EJB is also one of the most stupid arguments I have ever heard.Also it's very questionable, have you read this ?
    If benchmarks say true then java is faster than C and .NET is faster than java, but perl is faster than .NET. So drop everything perl is the best for mission critical enterprice aplications.

    P.S. I have never saw perl vs .NET benchmark, but I am sure it is possible to prove it using some lame benchmark.
  20. philosophing on TSS[ Go to top ]

    "There is nothing TSS members love more than persistence".
    "There is nothing TSS members hate more than benchmarks".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  21. philosophing on TSS[ Go to top ]

    "There is nothing TSS members love more than persistence"."There is nothing TSS members hate more than benchmarks".RegardsRolf Tollerud
    We are talking in the technical realm, right? ;)
  22. Yes Rolf, everything is relative: if it is Java, it is bad, if not, it is good. May I quote you on this too? ;)

    Sorry to break your dreams, Rolf. Time to get down to earth and contemplate the reality in front of you: Mono is not the end all be all platform that will kill dotNet or Java, they are very far behind both platforms. I don't blame them, this is just a 1.0 version, and what they have acomplished up to now is already something. Maybe it will evolve into something really big in the future, but right now, it is nothing more than an web app platform, far from a free and complete SOA platform. So calm down, open your eyes and face reality, it is better than live dreaming on the catwalk, wondering what the next season's fashion will be.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  23. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    That said even if COM+ is outdated it is not as outdated as EJBs! If you are stubborn enough to make things in the old way COM+ still outperforms EJB in all directions, speed, reliability and productivity. And you can also use Tuxedo from both .NET and Mono.
    Yes, it definetly makes you more productive when you can watch the little sppining balls. COM+ is the primary reason J2EE is so pervasive. I remember when Microsoft would say how they were placing all their chips on COM, but it turned out to be such a mess they had to dump it all and copy Java. They only reason they even had the sense to do that was because they stole Anders from Borland and he knew for sure COM was a disaster.
  24. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    That said even if COM+ is outdated it is not as outdated as EJBs! If you are stubborn enough to make things in the old way COM+ still outperforms EJB in all directions, speed, reliability and productivity. And you can also use Tuxedo from both .NET and Mono.
    Yes, it definetly makes you more productive when you can watch the little sppining balls. COM+ is the primary reason J2EE is so pervasive. I remember when Microsoft would say how they were placing all their chips on COM, but it turned out to be such a mess they had to dump it all and copy Java. They only reason they even had the sense to do that was because they stole Anders from Borland and he kne for sure COM was a disaster.
    Unfortunately, they have not dropped it. Yet. Just covered it up. So the pain is still there.
  25. between pest and cholera[ Go to top ]

    Interesting, now we have two technologies that is both outdated but we argue over who is the worst! EJB has come a long way down since 2.5 years ago when I was new to TSS. But it still has a long way down where it belongs!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  26. COM+ dead-end for many years now[ Go to top ]

    That said even if COM+ is outdated it is not as outdated as EJBs! If you are stubborn enough to make things in the old way COM+ still outperforms EJB in all directions, speed, reliability and productivity. And you can also use Tuxedo from both .NET and Mono.
    Yes, it definetly makes you more productive when you can watch the little sppining balls. COM+ is the primary reason J2EE is so pervasive. I remember when Microsoft would say how they were placing all their chips on COM, but it turned out to be such a mess they had to dump it all and copy Java. They only reason they even had the sense to do that was because they stole Anders from Borland and he kne for sure COM was a disaster.
    Unfortunately, they have not dropped it. Yet. Just covered it up. So the pain is still there.
    The last year I worked at Microsoft I wound up in the COM+ group developing a .NET subsystem. Even inside MS COM+ was viewed as dead-end. One of those technologies kept on life-support by marketing while development works to eventually phase it out. The biggest disappointment of .NET at that time was its continued reliance on COM+ to do transactions and MSMQ for messaging (politics canned an attempt to do a new managed messaging implementation). Now that was back in '99. Is interesting that practically five years later .NET still has that same legacy dependency problem that keeps it from being taken seriously in an enterprise setting. (BTW, it wasn't known as .NET back then but am using that term as that is what everyone knows it as now, of course.)
  27. 1) For the first let us make something clear. It certainly is not COM on the client that is outdated, it is the only thing that works. ActiveX is what makes every MS client application a development tool too, pretty much useless to explain to a Unix user because the concept is too strange for him. It was made a hopeless try to copy it though, something called Bonobo. This is BTW the reason that OpenOffice never will be able to compete with MS Office.

    2) When I explain why COM+ on the server is outdated I first have to explain a concept that also is very strange and alien for Unix users, namely "Sense of Proportions".

    COM+ for distributed transactions on the server is outdated because of deployment issues only. They can not be "hot" deployed like a normal .NET DLL that can just be xcopied into the bin catalog of a running server.

    It is not outdated because it is unmanaged super fast C code! The concept of .NET is to work as near the metal possible when compatibility is not needed (unlike Java that is always bloated and slow). The C XML parser, (20 times faster than a Java parser) is another example.

    So if COM+ could be ported to Unix/Linux, it would be such a huge improvement over EJBs that they would dance with joy. They never has had "hot" deploy anyway... :( Now we have server side applications that behave like 1992 desktop applications.

    That is what is meant by "Sense of Proportions". Exactly the same as when medicine that is outdated or considered dangerous in US is useful in other part of the world.

    I could not post this immediatly because the server was down. BTW TSS.Com was down the whole weekend and 3 (no 4 with this) times since then. It is very sad that TSS.NET is coupled to J2EE with some interoperability scheme. TSS.NET should be completly standalone so that everybody can see the difference in uptime between a .NET application and a J2EE application.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  28. 1) For the first let us make something clear. It certainly is not COM on the client that is outdated, it is the only thing that works. ActiveX is what makes every MS client application a development tool too, pretty much useless to explain to a Unix user because the concept is too strange for him. It was made a hopeless try to copy it though, something called Bonobo. This is BTW the reason that OpenOffice never will be able to compete with MS Office.
    Do you know what API means? it means "Application Programming Interface". Almost every application in unix has an API, which makes them into a "development tool". I have worked on one such application back in 1994, whose implementation goes back into the late seventies, way before Windows ever existed. I think this COM thing is a copy of unix APIs concept instead.
    2) When I explain why COM+ on the server is outdated I first have to explain a concept that also is very strange and alien for Unix users, namely "Sense of Proportions".
    Besides desktop OS market monopoly, MS now has sense of proportion monopoly too. ;)
  29. I am only trying to explain that because of MS deprecate some technology, in this case COM+, that is not a proof that Unix had something better. All this is difficult to understand for the 7 year old. They only hear: "MS say that this is shit! I knew it! Glee! Without reflect over that their current technique is in fact inferior to the thingy that MS cast away. :)

    Anyway Mono will soon be able to use Indigo, which is not far away.
    Then all the old will pass away like a feather in the wind.

    Best Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  30. I am only trying to explain that because of MS deprecate some technology, in this case COM+, that is not a proof that Unix had something better.
    It proves that Unix is a more stable and proven concept.
  31. COM on.[ Go to top ]

    1) For the first let us make something clear. It certainly is not COM on the client that is outdated, it is the only thing that works.
    Maybe COM in general works. But have you tried to control Office outside of office? What a pain. Excel doesn't shut down. Word doesn't. The "API" doesn't expose things your user can clearly see in his UI and he/she/you don't understand why it ain't in the API. Got a funny story about that - Active Directory (Via a Windows GUI) allows certain changes to be made. I had to use a Java based tool to see what it was generating. Windows and all the MS tools nicely hid that from me.
    ActiveX is what makes every MS client application a development tool too,
    So is this supposed to be an advantage? :) Every "script kiddy" thinks it is.
      This is BTW the reason that OpenOffice never will be able to compete with MS Office.
    Again with the foretelling.
    Oddly, it does seem to be competing.
    OpenOffice can be "scripted" and offers more options than Office. And since the documents are not in an proprietary format any tool can read them, not just the original vendors.
    I use OpenOffice to open Office files I get from sources I don't fully trust (pretty much everyone) so I don't get viruses. BTW, this is the same reason I use FireFox. Ok it isn't the only reason (built in popup blocker, tabs, themes, etc.). I only use IE with sites that are poorly developed (read require IE : ) ).
  32. Fantastic Troubleshooting ...[ Go to top ]

    I could not post this immediatly because the server was down. BTW TSS.Com was down the whole weekend and 3 (no 4 with this) times since then. It is very sad that TSS.NET is coupled to J2EE with some interoperability scheme. TSS.NET should be completly standalone so that everybody can see the difference in uptime between a .NET application and a J2EE application.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Note to self: Never ask Rolf to help with troubleshooting application/OS/Hardware/Network problems especially if Java is involved.
  33. Is that so?[ Go to top ]

    Mark: Note to self: Never ask Rolf to help with troubleshooting application/OS/Hardware/Network problems especially if Java is involved.

    I put a watch on TSS on Saturday and here is a copy of the results so far.
    http://www11.brinkster.com/monoasp/tss/alertsite.html

    I never troubled to notify Dion as I am sure that he is perfectly aware of the situation.

    We in Europe observe the problem earlier because we are 6 hours before, the startup time in the morning is in the middle of the night in US - when the server most often fails.

    The uptime of TSS varies between 98-99%. That is not good enough in IMO, especially as you have the crème de la crème for staff: the consultant’s consultants of the Middleware Company.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  34. Seems so[ Go to top ]

    Mark: Note to self: Never ask Rolf to help with troubleshooting application/OS/Hardware/Network problems especially if Java is involved.I put a watch on TSS on Saturday and here is a copy of the results so far.http://www11.brinkster.com/monoasp/tss/alertsite.htmlI never troubled to notify Dion as I am sure that he is perfectly aware of the situation. We in Europe observe the problem earlier because we are 6 hours before, the startup time in the morning is in the middle of the night in US - when the server most often fails.The uptime of TSS varies between 98-99%. That is not good enough in IMO, especially as you have the crème de la crème for staff: the consultant’s consultants of the Middleware Company.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    So you can't ping the site. Is it the network? Is it the service provider? Is it ... ? There is much more to determining what is wrong with distributed applications than just checking if you can hit the site. Hmm sounds like a Shark Tank episode to me (http://www.computerworld.com/departments/opinions/sharktank/). Need to get right on fixing the Internet. :)

    Have you read the Falacies of Network Computing?
  35. slashdot is always up[ Go to top ]

    Alertsite,
    "We measure from as many as 12 locations worldwide, web sites and servers are tested as often as once per minute"

    Mark: There is much more to determining what is wrong with distributed applications than just checking if you can hit the site

    Please Mark, stop this nonsense. This never happens to slasdot.org for example.

    I wouldn't mind so much if I only was able to see the site or not get the message "No more news". :(

    Notice that Dion does not do squirmy excuses, unlike you.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  36. Alertsite,"We measure from as many as 12 locations worldwide, web sites and servers are tested as often as once per minute"Mark: There is much more to determining what is wrong with distributed applications than just checking if you can hit the sitePlease Mark, stop this nonsense. This never happens to slasdot.org for example.I wouldn't mind so much if I only was able to see the site or not get the message "No more news". :( Notice that Dion does not do squirmy excuses, unlike you.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Maybe they should have who ever hosts slashdot host TSS. Or send it to Mars to run on the Rover(Java seems to be doing just fine there). :)

    It is difficult to post a "down" message if the site is not accessable. That happens alot. It could be hardware or network. And more than likely is. Maybe it is not. But Alertsite only tests the site presence. Nothing else. You need to stop the nonsense in trying to prove the Java is the culprit with circumstantial evidence at best. Just because site A is available and doesn't use Java but site B isn't and does use Java does NOT mean it is software related (or Java software related). It could be the reason. I've done troubleshooting in electrical and electronic systems (F4, F5, F16, C130, C140, DSCS and Milstar Satellite Systems (btw all the 'modern' systems contained computers), etc.) and in software applications (a lot in multiplatform distributed systems) and, IMHO and other's too, I was and am very good at it. So I do know what I am saying in saying that you don't.

    This is not a squirmy excuse. I don't know Dion and I am not trying to defend the lack of availability of TSS. It is just proper troubleshooting technique. It is what I do everyday.

    So to Dion: please fix the real problem (even if it is Java related), so Rolf will get off of this.
  37. TSS uptime stat[ Go to top ]

    Well, now it's passed 4 days with a uptime stat of only 91.86 percent against slashdot's 99.82. I can also show some other commercial sites to have something to benchmark against!

    Rsp DNS Connect Redirect 1stByte Content Length %Avail

    0.9799 0.1207 0.0612 0.0000 0.2549 0.5431 33250 91.86 (TSS)
    0.8705 0.0207 0.1050 0.2196 0.1492 0.3760 49177 99.82 (Slashdot.org)

    0.2521 0.0051 0.0695 0.0000 0.0613 0.1162 21920 100.00 (ballyfitness.com )
    0.1053 0.0036 0.0148 0.0284 0.0246 0.0340 12823 100.00 (blackanddecker.com )
    0.2454 0.0039 0.1291 0.0000 0.1119 0.0005 511 100.00
    (www.bosch.com)

    I will continue to monitor awhile. Look forward to interesting reports!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  38. COM+ dead-end for many years now[ Go to top ]

    And it continues to be a pain cause it doesn't work well. And when it doesn't work ... have fun trying to figure out why.
  39. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    COM [...] a disaster.
    How is COM a disaster ? The programming model may be cumbersome, error prone, whatever, BUT it seems to be the *only* component framework that actually works in reality. COM components are real. Can I create an instance of the Mozilla Mail Agent in my programs ? Can I use the OO spell checker in my software ?
  40. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    COM [...] a disaster.
    How is COM a disaster ? The programming model may be cumbersome, error prone, whatever, BUT it seems to be the *only* component framework that actually works in reality. COM components are real. Can I create an instance of the Mozilla Mail Agent in my programs ? Can I use the OO spell checker in my software ?Yes I know, real components that work in many different language environments. Just pray no one runs regsvr32 for the class your application depends on, then you will understand why COM was a disaster for enterprise software.
  41. everything is relative[ Go to top ]

    How is COM a disaster ? The programming model may be cumbersome, error prone, whatever, BUT it seems to be the *only* component framework that actually works in reality. COM components are real. Can I create an instance of the Mozilla Mail Agent in my programs ? Can I use the OO spell checker in my software ?
    Yes I know, real components that work in many different language environments. Just pray no one runs regsvr32 for the class your application depends on, then you will understand why COM was a disaster for enterprise software.
  42. Mono has a fit[ Go to top ]

    Mono's readmap doc states that System.EnterpriseServices and System.Management APIs won't be implemented, so it means distributed transactions and such are out of rule. ... Where would mono aim reside, then? Web services? ASP.NET sites?Regards,Henrique Steckelberg
    That depends... distributed transactions are not needed for 80% (number off the top of my head) of the companies using transactions. Personally, there have only been a handful of projects I've worked on that needed distributed transactions. So I'd say that Mono resides primarily in a web service and/or web application model.
  43. Mono's readmap doc states that System.EnterpriseServices and System.Management APIs won't be implemented, so it means distributed transactions and such are out of rule. ... Where would mono aim reside, then? Web services? ASP.NET sites?Regards,Henrique Steckelberg
    That depends... distributed transactions are not needed for 80% (number off the top of my head) of the companies using transactions. Personally, there have only been a handful of projects I've worked on that needed distributed transactions. So I'd say that Mono resides primarily in a web service and/or web application model.
    As I imagined. So we can safely say that Mono doesn't compete with EJBs, whose primary focus _is_ distributed systems.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  44. Mono is Mondo[ Go to top ]

    However .NET tech as a desktop application is totally out from what I've read, because the new UI manager in Longhorn makes all the currnet .NET winforms null and void.

    So I guess if you need cross platform desktop apps, then Java is still the only way to go.
    And since Microsoft is pushing back to the client (http://msdn.microsoft.com/smartclient/understanding/) ...
  45. Mono is Mondo[ Go to top ]

    ... There is a HUGE interest in .NET on Linux. Life doesn't revolve around the pure .NET and pure J2EE developer. Companies who are heavily invested in .NET would like Linux as an option. If Mono was fully supported on Linux and Mac, my currnet project probably wouldn't even be Java.2.
    I'm not so sure that there is such a HUGE interest in .NET on Linux. If a company is willing to go down the .NET route for their product development, then they've pretty much by default made the decision to use Windows as their server and client platforms as well.
    So I guess if you need cross platform desktop apps, then Java is still the only way to go.
    Not to mention the staggering amount of open source Java projects that developers can leverage in their own products. Using Java isn't just about being cross-platform. It's about maturity and a wealth of toolsets as well.
  46. interesting[ Go to top ]

    Just some into on the questions:1. There is a HUGE interest in .NET on Linux. Life doesn't revolve around the pure .NET and pure J2EE developer. Companies who are heavily invested in .NET would like Linux as an option.
    I question the validity of this statement. I see plenty of company using .NET to replace old VB clients. What I don't see is java serverside applications moving to IIS + .NET. I see plenty of ASP moving to ASPX and ASMX, but not from java world. This is in the northeast area and not necessarily representative of the US in general or any real pattern.
    3. The Mono guys have their work cut out for them, but Microsoft has some sort of support they're providing to the Mono guys as well.
    Does anyone have verifyable proof of this cooperation? I hear some rumors about it, but I don't see concrete proof. How clean is a clean room implementation if the Mono guys are getting help from Microsoft. That feels risky to me.
  47. Kinda Mondo[ Go to top ]

    I question the validity of this statement. I see plenty of company using .NET to replace old VB clients. What I don't see is java serverside applications moving to IIS + .NET. I see plenty of ASP moving to ASPX and ASMX, but not from java world.Well think about the server software costs and web client access licenses. Linux is certainy "cheaper" in terms of upfront costs... it's been one of the stronest driving forces for Linux and Java from the beginning.

    I'd certainly pay for .NET Studio dev tools to build products to run on a Linux/Mono framekwork/platform if I verified Mono does everything I need it to do. The cost savings, especially for large NOCs, can be staggering. I can tell you here that .NET apps are rapidly replace J2EE implementations for many companies here in the SE US. Granted though that most of the work around here is some form of enterprise web serivces like Cheap Tickets, Memberclicks, etc.

    As for the rumor, I can't even confirm it. However I did here a rumor that the rumor was posted on the Mono site somewhere. :)
    Not to mention the staggering amount of open source Java projects that developers can leverage in their own products. Using Java isn't just about being cross-platform. It's about maturity and a wealth of toolsets as well.
    This open source argument no longer holds water. There is NetUnit, NetUnitGui (which is the BEST Junit like gui I've seen to date), Hibernate for .NET, etc. Also since .NET already supports class/method metadata, most make use of it, and the resulting implementation is more straight forward. No, I'd like to have some of the cool .NET tools on my side of the java fence.

    Also something that every java addict must realize: without java, there'd be no .NET.... and without .NET, there'd most likely be meta data attributes, JSF, SUN Studio Creator, and a list of other goodies - IMHO.
  48. Kinda Mondo[ Go to top ]

    There is NetUnit, NetUnitGui (which is the BEST Junit like gui I've seen to date), Hibernate for .NET, etc. Also since .NET already supports class/method metadata, most make use of it, and the resulting implementation is more straight forward. No, I'd like to have some of the cool .NET tools on my side of the java fence.
    Please provide link for Hiberante for .Net.
  49. NHibernate[ Go to top ]

    NHibernate is the project, but it's still in Alpha. My bad on that one. However there are other ORM options, like TierDeveloper, but I'm not sure about open source.

    Link:
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/nhibernate
  50. NHibernate[ Go to top ]

    Thanks for the link, I wasn't aware there was anything yet, but pre-alpha is better than non-existent.
  51. Kinda Mondo[ Go to top ]

    Not to mention the staggering amount of open source Java projects that developers can leverage in their own products. Using Java isn't just about being cross-platform. It's about maturity and a wealth of toolsets as well.
    This open source argument no longer holds water. There is NetUnit, NetUnitGui (which is the BEST Junit like gui I've seen to date), Hibernate for .NET, etc. Also since .NET already supports class/method metadata, most make use of it, and the resulting implementation is more straight forward.
    I wasn't making an open source argument. Plus my statement wasn't an argument. It was simply a statement of fact. So that no-one feels left out, I'll further qualify my prior post by saying that there is also a staggering amount of non-open source/commercial libraries, IDEs, toolsets, etc. for Java as well.
  52. Kinda Mondo[ Go to top ]

    I can tell you here that .NET apps are rapidly replace J2EE implementations for many companies here in the SE US.
     Is it possible to use Windows or MS DOS on server ?
  53. I can tell you here that .NET apps are rapidly replace J2EE implementations for many companies here in the SE US. Granted though that most of the work around here is some form of enterprise web serivces like Cheap Tickets, Memberclicks, etc.As for the rumor, I can't even confirm it. However I did here a rumor that the rumor was posted on the Mono site somewhere. :)
    I used to work on a platform project that integrated with other travel sites. Most of them were running windows. If I remember correctly, some of them changed to Java to improve scalability. If I was running J2EE on windows, it definitely makes sense to switch from servlets back to IIS+ASPX. I also remember several of the travel sites already has webservices like interfaces using plan old XML. In the NorthEast where financial companies dominate the IT field, I've been seeing numerous defections to J2EE. The most prominant one is when fleet's homelink switch from ASP to J2EE. The performance and reliability improved dramatically.
  54. Mono is very immature platform it reminds when Java was in beta .1 version.
    .Not is like Java when it was .5 version . Lotta M$ hypeagain just like windoze 95 and VB4
  55. Mono is a Nono[ Go to top ]

    Mono looks a good idea, but given the Microsoft factor, its a waste of time. To expect that Mono will survive the legendary Microsoft skulduggery (over 25 yrs and counting)is a chase of the wind. Miguel and co may as well move to cloud cuckooland land. Mono represents nothing but a waste of intelligent brain cycles that would have been better spent improving GNOME and or Linux desktop.

    No prizes for guessing that this will all end in tears; I already picture Bill G's clandestine tactics at play. Why wont some people learn from history ?, why stick your head in the sand, Miguel ?!!; is the SAMBA saga not example enough ?. What do you and your ilk want to see before you listen ?, a poke in the eye ?.

    What a crying shame this pathetic episode is.

    Sorry to burst your bubble Novell, Miguel etc but Mono is a Nono !!
  56. Dept. of Homeland Security Says to Stop Using IE

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=74&e=3&u=/cmp/20040702/tc_cmp/22103407

    he Department of Homeland Security's U.S. Computer Emergency Readiness Team touched off a storm this week when it recommended for security reasons using browsers other than Microsoft Corp.'s Internet Explorer.

    he Microsoft browser, the government warned, cannot protect against vulnerabilities in its Internet Information Services (IIS) 5 server programs, which a team of hackers allegedly based in Russia has exploited with a Java script that is appended to Web sites.

    The particular virus initiated this week inserts Java script into certain Web sites. When users visit those sites, it initiates pop-up ads on home and office computers, and allows keystroke analysis of user information. The target is believed to be credit card numbers. CERT estimated that as many as tens of thousands of Web sites may be affected.

    CERT said vulnerabilities in IIS and IE could include MIME-type determination, the DHTML object model, the IE domain/zone security model and ActiveX scripts. Alternative browsers such as Mozilla or Netscape may not protect users, the agency warned, if those browsers invoke ActiveX control or HTML rendering engines.

    The only defense may be completely disabling scripting and ActiveX controls.

    Microsoft said earlier in the week it is working with law enforcement officials to identify the source of the latest Internet virus.
  57. A nice collection[ Go to top ]

    The Java technical community tolerates and/or encourages very undisciplined and intolerant speech. The rhetoric used by Java advocates about .NET and Microsoft is not subject to common standards of decency or honesty. Furthermore logic, reason and common sense are not strong points of Java zealots. Neither is sense of proportions.

    Java stopped being technology years ago and became a religion of hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. A community of gross, vulgar and common well-meaning impractical "computer-scientists".

    It goes without saying that anyone that partipicate in searching out and ridicule the typical smug, self-aggrandizing, pompous and hypocritical Java jerk does a great service to society.

    This is the opinion of MS developers as well as Linux developers. That is why Mono will win on Linux.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  58. A nice collection[ Go to top ]

    That is why Mono will win on Linux.

    The war is over before it started, Java already rules on linux. Look at all the major enterprise apps like PeopleSoft, Oracle, etc., all built on Java. To think that an implementation of .Net written by some Euro trash evolutionist will have any chance against Java on Linux is pure fantasy.

    I thought I would throw in some intolerance for effect ;-)
  59. A nice collection[ Go to top ]

    Java stopped being technology years ago and became a religion of hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. A community of gross, vulgar and common well-meaning impractical "computer-scientists".
    You have said a lot of crap about companies like SUN,IBM and talk about paranoia at the same time. You have said open source developers are communist, animals, java developers are impractical, but you do not know how to store date field yourself. Any man can become vulgar after you start to talk about your religion, do you think it is not your problem ?
  60. A nice collection[ Go to top ]

    The Java technical community tolerates and/or encourages very undisciplined and intolerant speech. The rhetoric used by Java advocates about .NET and Microsoft is not subject to common standards of decency or honesty. Furthermore logic, reason and common sense are not strong points of Java zealots. Neither is sense of proportions. Java stopped being technology years ago and became a religion of hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. A community of gross, vulgar and common well-meaning impractical "computer-scientists". It goes without saying that anyone that partipicate in searching out and ridicule the typical smug, self-aggrandizing, pompous and hypocritical Java jerk does a great service to society.This is the opinion of MS developers as well as Linux developers. That is why Mono will win on Linux.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Sorry Rolf, But the some can be said for other platform communities. I get the same "junk" from .Net communities and ... . Unfortunately you have the tendancy to speak inclusively when the truth is there many varied thoughts and beliefs within the Java community. Java has its zealots as do .Net and Mono and ... . And sometimes people are zealots about one thing in Java and not others.

    "People who live in Grass Huts shouldn't stow thrones."
  61. Mark:
    "People who live in Grass Huts shouldn't stow thrones."
    "

    Sorry Mark, but I can not agree with you. This attitude does not exist in any other camp like the C#, C++, PHP, Perl, etc. I am not the only one of that opinion, see,
    http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/1343

    Daniel H Steinberg:
    "What surprised me most was how the topic of Java, even among and between perfect strangers, always returned not to the technological flaws of our platform, but to the "jerk" attitudes of our developers."

    It does not pertain to "all" Java people but enough of them. What makes me curios (always interested in the psychology of the individual) is, why? That is the question. Sometimes in the future perhaps some insightful person will explain.

    I do have my own private unscientific explanation though! What happens if some group is:

    1) Utterly annihilated in a competition.
    2) With some quirk of chance suddenly gets to the top (without "earning it").
    3) For some time enjoy an exalted status on false premises.
    4) But then perceive that is a possibility the 1) will happen again.

    As I said I am not the only one. On day you will realize that you are the laughing stock of the whole IT industry.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  62. Pity to see an MS developer going so low in a tech forum, it really shows how MS zealots are fearful, paranoid and confused when real competition hits them.
  63. was something passing?[ Go to top ]

    What I do is only a trifle compared to what you do to yourself Henrique. Soon at every Java conference and gathering you will be frisked for weapons at the entrance! It's quite entertaining really, watching from the outside. :) That is not hard to explain though: "it is not difficult to get along as long as everything goes smoothly but when the hard times comes the bickering starts.."

    It will be interesting to see what happen at the Javaone conference. What? - "it’s already has happened?" My God, I did not even notice it!

    News
    No threads in forum

    More news
    No more news

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  64. was something missing?[ Go to top ]

    Look at yourself, Rolf, you are the very definition of the words "troll" and "zealot", offending people in a public forum aimlessly, just because some of them contest technically your arguments, and what to you offer back? Name calling, flame baiting and trolling, and still think that you're doing manking any good. Oh, of course, MS needs Don Quichote's help against the evil Java comunity, else it should fail.

    Are you sure you are not being slightly paranoid about this, after 2.5 years trolling a place where noone likes you? Doesn't this sound like masochism to you? It does to me.

    I was able to get rid of you back at TSS.Net, after showing everyone your real agenda, but nothing will make you go away from here, so whatever. I give up trying to dialogue with a troll.

    Henrique Steckelberg
  65. 2.5 years trolling?[ Go to top ]

    Is it trolling to tell the truth? It is not only about EJB and how to save a datevalue in the database. Remember when I was ridiculed for "the stateless web application?" Well, go to Carlos E. Perez page and read,

    http://www.manageability.org/blog/stuff/about-ebays-architecture

    Nuggets of Wisdom from eBay's Architecture
    (380 Million page views a day, of course without EJBs)
    This basically means that right now we are not really using server-side state. We may use it; right now we have not found a good reason to use it. [snip] if there is something that needs to be stateful, then we put in the database; we go back and get it, if we need to. We just take the hit. We do not have to do clustering; we do not have to do any of that stuff. [snip] The key nuggets of wisdom are a stateless design.
    And when you are at it read,
    The Select Star Problem, about O/R mapping.

    Making Web applications is mainly a boring procedure of tedious reports from the database and simple data-entry forms. All the frameworks are born from the same need - to make frameworks is more interesting than the real work. Henceforth this insane need to overcomplicate things.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  66. http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040706/dell_questar_1.html

    Dell Launches Desktop Linux Line in Europe Through Partnership With Questar Corp.

    SAN DIEGO (AP) -- Computer maker Dell Inc. said Tuesday that it launched its first line of Linux-based desktop computers in Europe through its partnership with diversified energy company Questar Corp.

    The Dell Optiplex desktop is targeted to businesses, educational institutions and computer users seeking a space-saving, upgradeable system. The computers will be shipped by Dell, pre-installed with the English or Italian version of Linspire 4.5 operating system and include Dell's gold technical support.

    All Dell computers sold by Questar will be equipped with word processing, spreadsheet, and presentation software and file compatibility with Microsoft Office. Customers will also receive a one-year free membership to the Linspire software download warehouse.




    http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2004-07-06-004-26-OS-SW-DV

    "Since Sun Microsystems released the first version of Java, the industry has been displeased with the way Java's front-end development toolkit works. Though Swing appeased some developers with its look-and-feel, the interfaces one could build with it still lacked the right look and its performance did not meet the requirements of large-scale, industrial-strength applications.

    "To address this shortcoming, some folks like IBM set out to develop an entirely new toolkit that has a widget framework similar to Java's Abstract Window Toolkit (AWT) but is entirely dependent on the native operating system's GUI widgets..."
  67. too little too late[ Go to top ]

    "To address this shortcoming, some folks like IBM set out to develop an entirely new toolkit that has a widget framework similar to Java's Abstract Window Toolkit (AWT) but is entirely dependent on the native operating system's GUI widgets..."

    That’s what Sun should have done from the beginning instead of seeking confrontation.
    Now it is too late though.

    http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=27059#128835

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  68. too little too late[ Go to top ]

    "To address this shortcoming, some folks like IBM set out to develop an entirely new toolkit that has a widget framework similar to Java's Abstract Window Toolkit (AWT) but is entirely dependent on the native operating system's GUI widgets..." That’s what Sun should have done from the beginning instead of seeking confrontation.Now it is too late though.http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=27059#128835RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Maybe it is. But I doubt you can see the future any better than I can. In my eyes, the time is right. And Eclipse/Netbeans + all of the things that came out of JavaOne show that Sun, IBM, ... all realize this.
  69. Java + SWT + Excelsior == very good[ Go to top ]

    Well I agree that Java with SWT is an excellent solution, even more so when you compile with Excelsior. But if it is true as you say (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) that there isn't a good SWT implementation for Linux then it can only one reason for that namely that nobody has cared to make any. Certainly there can not be any technical reasons.

    Maybe it is not too late but I have noticed that there is a good deal of resentment against SWT in Java circles. Funny really - they are angry at the only thing that perhaps can save them. :) "Most empires and civilizations is destroyed from inside" Gibbons and Toynbee.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  70. SWT == controversial[ Go to top ]

    Look http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=27138#128850
    Then there is not much hope is it?
  71. SWT == controversial[ Go to top ]

    Look http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=27138#128850Then there is not much hope is it?
    Only proof that there is at least one "extremist" (I'm being nice) in the crowd. But there is one in every group. At least they serve to make the rest of us look sane. The unfortunately those looking for a scapegoat point at that person and use them as representative (Know anyone like that?).
  72. Java + SWT + Excelsior == very good[ Go to top ]

    But if it is true as you say (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) that there isn't a good SWT implementation for Linux
    I didn't say that.
     Maybe it is not too late but I have noticed that there is a good deal of resentment against SWT in Java circles.
    I've not noticed that. I have noticed a few loud voices. But they really are not that important. I think the amount of Eclipse downloads proves otherwise.
     Funny really - they are angry at the only thing that perhaps can save them.
    Glad you said perhaps. Maybe can teach an old dog new tricks. I think SWT and Swing are Jack Sprat and his Wife. Together they will lick the plater clean.
  73. Dell Launches Desktop Linux Line[ Go to top ]

    And they say this too: "If platform independence is not a required feature for your application, SWT may be a very attractive option." If platform independence is required SWT still is an option.

    This stuff is typical of mags (Computerworld, Linuxworld, JavaPro, ... ). They mix truth with hearsay with urban legends ... . I guess if you say it long enough, it becomes truth.

    Oh, they really are quoting DevX. Nuff said there.

    (Sorry Rolf if this sounds like typical Java talk. Its the truth so it is ok :) )
  74. 2.5 years trolling?[ Go to top ]

    Don't forget to read what he has to say about .Net. :)

    "Making Web applications is mainly a boring procedure of tedious reports from the database and simple data-entry forms"

    Do you believe that? I think that is all it is good for. Unfortunately the "pointy headed ones" desire that all apps are web apps. Thus the plethora of frameworks trying solve the problem of webapps trying to be desktop apps. I never bought into "the everything should be webapps" theory.
  75. I wonder if it ever occurs to some folk, how much of a disservice they are doing to the Open Source movement, when they dive into a forum and start behaving like this.

    To be honest, I used to think that Open Source Java was a good idea, but having not received a satisfactory answer on how compatibility would be maintained, I started to change my mind. What sent me completely the other way though, was watching the behaviour of some of the "Free Java or die" proponents in forums such as this.

    I had to ask myself

    "Are these really the people who should be entrusted with the future of Java?"
  76. a language can never be property[ Go to top ]

    The question is not to free Java anymore, it is too late. This is only a Post Mortem discussion, for the benefits of us that like to learn from history. Sun twice submitted Java to a standards body and twice withdrew despite many warnings that if they did, it would be forked.

    Well, they did not heed the warnings and it was forked. And to those that claimed that MS would have taken over the position as Java steward I only can say, if that really had happened Java would have benefited enormously and we would have a faster, more consistent and less memory-consuming Java compatible over all platforms, but still with the possibility to optimize for a certain OS like Linux or Windows in those cases compatibility is not needed.

    What we have to look forward to is a long and bitter fight that can only end in one way. MS is now Java's enemy and Sun or any other group or company does not even have hope left, as is evident from the vehement fight among them. Javaone passed away without being noticed or even discussed.

    Unix people like to take credit for the Internet (Bill Joy: "we created the Internet" :) but Internet was invented by the American military and once that was in place the Web was bound to happen. At least Sun/IBM/Oracle had nothing to do with it!
     
    The web changed everything and suddenly "Big Iron" was back in fashion. Instead of cooperation they sought confrontation using their new-won (by luck only) position to attack MS products made before the Internet on the grounds that they were that was not adapted to internet! Constructing a Java not usable for the MS platform despite that 95% of the business world was busy using ActiveX/COM for development..

    And such the story goes. The EJB Crown Jewels of Java proved to be the Emperors New Clothes, responsible for more waist of money that any other mistake in computer history.
     
    All born out of hatred, envy and vanity.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  77. Sorry Mark, but I can not agree with you. This attitude does not ...
    You don't have to agree. It is true. Just because you can't or don't want to see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And just because someone weblogs about it, doesn't mean they are right either. Maybe why you don't see it as much is because not many "Java" developers troll on the .Net, etc. discussion boards.
  78. A nice collection[ Go to top ]

    The Java technical community tolerates and/or encourages very undisciplined and intolerant speech. The rhetoric used by Java advocates about .NET and Microsoft is not subject to common standards of decency or honesty. Furthermore logic, reason and common sense are not strong points of Java zealots.
    I am sure people are still the same whether they program for Java or C#/VB.NET etc. etc. If there are differences, they can be found from the environment. Does Microsoft care about your opinion about C#? Oh, wait, your opinion IS Microsoft's opinion about just about everything. Hence you come here because there are no heated discussions elsewhere.
     Neither is sense of proportions. Java stopped being technology years ago and became a religion of hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. A community of gross, vulgar and common well-meaning impractical "computer-scientists". It goes without saying that anyone that partipicate in searching out and ridicule the typical smug, self-aggrandizing, pompous and hypocritical Java jerk does a great service to society.This is the opinion of MS developers as well as Linux developers.
    Spoken like a true religious hyperbolic, paranoid zealot.
  79. Now, man, THAT'S noisy![ Go to top ]

    Java stopped being technology years ago and became a religion of hyperbole, paranoia and hatred.
    Now, man, THAT'S noisy!

    If you agree with me just click the little link over THAT Rolf's posting!
  80. A nice collection[ Go to top ]

    The Java technical community tolerates and/or encourages very undisciplined and intolerant speech. The rhetoric used by Java advocates about .NET and Microsoft is not subject to common standards of decency or honesty. Furthermore logic, reason and common sense are not strong points of Java zealots. Neither is sense of proportions. Java stopped being technology years ago and became a religion of hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. A community of gross, vulgar and common well-meaning impractical "computer-scientists". It goes without saying that anyone that partipicate in searching out and ridicule the typical smug, self-aggrandizing, pompous and hypocritical Java jerk does a great service to society.This is the opinion of MS developers as well as Linux developers. That is why Mono will win on Linux.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    I have a theory that people tend to ascribe motives and attitudes to other people that they themselves hold*. So, for example, if you are a dishonest person you are likely to think that other people are after your money. If you are an open trusting person, you are likely to think that other people are trust worthy, and that any slight is an honest mistake, and so on.

    Your post seems to back up this theory nicely...

    *Similar to the psychological idea of projection.
  81. Microsoft said earlier in the week it is working with law enforcement officials to identify the source of the latest Internet virus.
    Have MS finally decided to give themselves up? ;)
  82. Have MS finally decided to give themselves up? ;) <
    Now that made me laugh ... :-D

    But not nearly as much as Rolf .... :-)
  83. Compatibility[ Go to top ]

    At least they keep very accurate track:

    http://www.go-mono.com/class-status.html
  84. Novell, Mono, open source[ Go to top ]

    Novell is sponsoring the Mono project.

    Is Novell sponsoring any open source Java projects?
  85. sean, as of novell & open source - novell joined eclipse, about month or two ago.
  86. Not quite 1.0[ Go to top ]

    Mono may be wonderful, someday, but my experience with this release so far shows it to be optimistic in labeling itself 1.0. Crashes, and complexities. Trying to compile programs made me yearn for the old ".jar: distribution system. So far, not impressed, but maybe someday.
  87. Mono is the perfect example of why to open source java. Would anyone care about Mono if java was open source?

    As soon as GNU Linux distros can ship Java without worrying about licensing issues, then there will be a much wider acceptance of Java in the Open Source community.
  88. To outsource Java doesn’t have any meaning anymore

    Sun has been harassing Linux developer for a long time.
    Consider only,

    1) Not allowing the Java to skip with Linux! (This is the most outrageous)
    2) Destroying for program authors by demanding that the whole JRE must be skipped, even when you have compiled the application and do not need it.
    3) Reinventing the wheel to maintain control instead of using superior libraries from Open source like log4j.
    4) By charging 500,000 and upward for fake TCK tests.
    5) By not delivering Java at Linux at all, when it was done by third party trying to steal the credit.
    6) The new agreement between Sun and OSS/JCP was negotiated by gunpoint. "We threatened to stop all Java development" said Jason Hunter from Jakarta and creator of Servlets.com. "The only way to get Sun to comply".
    7) Luring the Open Source community by twice promising to Open Source Java and then withdraw.

    etc, etc..

    All the time while keeping a straight face "we support Linux", "Nobody has given more code to Open Source" (when they do not have the competence themselves and had to be helped). Ha! What Java would have looked like if Sun alone had done it can best be understood by this little gem: http://teachweb.cis.uoguelph.ca/cs311/SunJavaMemo.txt

    The hypocrite Sun really should have a nickname like "Tricky Dick", that would be most appropriate. But it doesn’t have any meaning anymore. The Linux developer has voted with his feet.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  89. 1) Not allowing the Java to skip with Linux! (This is the most outrageous)
    Sounds unbelievable. After all, SUN provides JDK for Linux.
  90. Linux and Solaris are competitors[ Go to top ]

    Maris:
    "Sounds unbelievable. After all, SUN provides JDK for Linux."


    Nevertheless it is true. And JDK for Linux was not done by Sun.

    If it finds it hard to believe remember that Linux is the main reason that Sun is going out of business. As showed, to rely on Sun to help Linux is not the smartest thing in the world.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  91. P.S.

    Sun Stealing Blackdown?
    "A Linux Today story talks about how Sun repackaged Blackdown's porting of JDK 1.2.2 and called it their own. Even the script wrappers for this thing are the ones Steve Bryne wrote for the Blackdown effort and even have the name of the Blackdown developers in it."
    http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/99/12/08/027200.shtml

    Of course, you are allowed to distribute it if you pay! ;)
  92. P.S.Sun Stealing Blackdown?"A Linux Today story talks about how Sun repackaged Blackdown's porting of JDK 1.2.2 and called it their own. Even the script wrappers for this thing are the ones Steve Bryne wrote for the Blackdown effort and even have the name of the Blackdown developers in it."http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/99/12/08/027200.shtmlOf course, you are allowed to distribute it if you pay! ;)
    Be complete and mention that Sun had every right to do so:
    It says quite clearly on a page pointed to by the Blackdown FAQ about licensing that Sun owns all changes made under the non-commercial internal use agreement that the Blackdown team have agreed to.
    It might not have been very nice of Sun but the Blackdown developers knew it was a possibility. Hopefully something similar won't happen 4 years down the road of the Mono project (MS might suddenly decide the Mono's class libraries are better than theirs for example ;-).
  93. Linux and Solaris are competitors[ Go to top ]

    Maris:
    "Sounds unbelievable. After all, SUN provides JDK for Linux."
    Nevertheless it is true. And JDK for Linux was not done by Sun.If it finds it hard to believe remember that Linux is the main reason that Sun is going out of business. As showed, to rely on Sun to help Linux is not the smartest thing in the world.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Java is shipped with SUN's clone of Linux - JDS. Some people even migrate from Windows to JDS.

    Windows Loses Another Customer to Sun's JDS

    The Allied Irish Bank is undertaking the latest migration, echoing earlier Windows farewells by governments and companies in Europe, Asia and even the United States.
  94. ?[ Go to top ]

    To use the argument that Java do ship with Linux because Java is shipped with SUN's clone of Linux is one of the most stupid arguments I ever heard.

    Goodbye.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  95. ?[ Go to top ]

    Sun is also selling x86 blades that come with Linux pre-installed.

    http://www.sun.com/servers/entry/b100x/

    Under Key Specifications:
    Supports Solaris 9 Operating System x86 Platform Edition and standard Linux distributions from Sun
    They've been bundling Linux on their x86 blades since 2002.
  96. Rolf again and again[ Go to top ]

    because Java is shipped with SUN's clone of Linux ...
    Rolf, What would be that ? The clone ? I'm just asking, I didn't follow the thread it's just another thread turned by you in the .NET vs Java against SUN ... etc the rest of the bullshit. Boring.
  97. As showed, to rely on Sun to help Linux is not the smartest thing in the world. <
    .. and relying on Microsoft is? .... :-D
  98. SuSE Linux ships with Java[ Go to top ]

    "1) Not allowing the Java to skip with Linux! (This is the most outrageous)"

    http://www.suse.com/us/private/products/suse_linux/pers/packages_personal/java2-jre.html
  99. SuSE Linux ships with Java[ Go to top ]

    Then they most have paid.
  100. SuSE Linux ships Java[ Go to top ]

    "Then they most have paid."

    Is that the same as "I appear to have misspoken. Thanks for the information!"?
  101. A bit confused?[ Go to top ]

    ,1) Not allowing the Java to skip with Linux! (This is the most outrageous)
    Are you sure you're not confusing this with Debian's CHOICE not to ship Java because it's not GPL/LGPL?
    2) Destroying for program authors by demanding that the whole JRE must be skipped, even when you have compiled the application and do not need it.
    What do you mean "not need it"? You mean compiling to native?
    3) Reinventing the wheel to maintain control instead of using superior libraries from Open source like log4j.
    Just because Log4j is very popular doesn't mean it's perfect. Log4j had a lot of vocal fans that protested java.util.log in 1.4, I guess that's what made you pull that out. As a counterpoint: The advanced Ausio API they bought and rolled into the JRE.
  102. Who is confused did you say?
    "Are you sure you're not confusing this with Debian's CHOICE not to ship Java because it's not GPL/LGPL?"
    Am I in TSS forum? Is it not supposed to Java specialist here? Do you mean that you do not know that Linux can not distribute the SDK without Sun's explicit permission and they charge for it?
    "What do you mean "not need it"? You mean compiling to native?
    If you make an Swing application and compile it to native you should need only to distribute the windows (Swing) dll’s with your application. But Sun demands are "all or nothing" which means that you have to bundle the whole JRE, defeating the whole purpose.

    This is just some points on a long list. Wake up and get out of the denial phase. A false friend that is really your enemy is worse than a real enemy.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    BTW, java.util.log in 1.4 is shit compared to Log4j!
  103. end of denial phase?[ Go to top ]

    Tim O'Reilly (The Java Ecosystem Debates the Future of Java):
    "There's an elephant in the room," he said. "The fact is that on Linux the Mono Project is implemented on .NET not Java. Microsoft has a foot in the door, it has its own programming paradigm. We are starting to see another platform war, and we can't count Microsoft out. IBM has more touch points with the Linux community. How do we get that community to choose Java rather than .NET?"
    That wraps it up nicely. Have a nice weekend.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  104. end of denial phase?[ Go to top ]

    Tim O'Reilly (The Java Ecosystem Debates the Future of Java):
    "There's an elephant in the room," he said. "The fact is that on Linux the Mono Project is implemented on .NET not Java. Microsoft has a foot in the door, it has its own programming paradigm. We are starting to see another platform war, and we can't count Microsoft out. IBM has more touch points with the Linux community. How do we get that community to choose Java rather than .NET?"
    That wraps it up nicely. Have a nice weekend.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    And since when Did Tim O'Reilly become the final word ?.

    What an indefatigable scoffer this Rolf of a man is !!
  105. Ah, Mono is great. And, I still do not get it. I can't believe how naive people are thinking that Mono is set free from the shackles of Microsoft. Come on now, if Mono ever gains any popularity, Microsoft will find a way to harpoon it. Go ahead an invest time and money building Mono applications. And how can you base any open source projects of any significance on Mono? ECMA standards don't mean a thing either - nothing but public relations. Does Microsoft standardize the new features of C# too?
  106. for your information[ Go to top ]

    Tero:
    Does Microsoft standardize the new features of C# too
    C#
    ECMA standard ratified December 2001
    ISO standard published April 2003

    There are at least 2 released versions of the ECMA standards; The original, and a modified one released to match changes made by the ISO committee. (The ISO committee took the ECMA spec and fast tracked it to an ISO standard, making a few changes that were ratified by ECMA, which released a 1.1 version of the spec.) ECMA will at some point release a version 2.0 standard, Microsoft Whidbey, Mono, and Portable.NET are all working to the preliminary 2.0 spec, which hopefully will not change much before it is released. This will be the third ECMA C# standard.

    Burned from past practice, ECMA will never to release a standard for there are no working implementation. (unlike Sun)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  107. "Soon the borders between web and desktop will be blurred as all software will be written in C# and delivered over the net. CDrom sales will decline and finish of in 2010 something and people without broadband will be banned from the human race. IBM understand this and the entire company is getting geared up for time share of z/OS via .NET. Then it will be a choise of being controlled by MS via .NET or using free software via the Linux community and thousands upon thousands of free C# applications servers. A battle in C# between MS and it's 3rd party contributors against a Open Source with 500,000+ developers around the world".

    Interesting times ahead.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  108. "Soon the borders between web and desktop will be blurred as all software will be written in C# and delivered over the net. CDrom sales will decline and finish of in 2010 something and people without broadband will be banned from the human race. IBM understand this and the entire company is getting geared up for time share of z/OS via .NET. Then it will be a choise of being controlled by MS via .NET or using free software via the Linux community and thousands upon thousands of free C# applications servers. A battle in C# between MS and it's 3rd party contributors against a Open Source with 500,000+ developers around the world".Interesting times ahead.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    MS tech DO NOT EXIST w/o MS. so be carefull what you wish for