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News: Opinion: Don Box and the Java Community

  1. Opinion: Don Box and the Java Community (58 messages)

    Don Box has written a few thoughts on the Java community. This comes after Eric Gunnerson (also from the Microsoft camp) wrote-up his thoughts from JavaOne. It is good for us to reflect on both the good and the bad that we have in our community. We can be proud AND can make things even better.

    Don Box: Travels in Java land

    Eric Gunnerson: Reports from JavaOne

    My thoughts: Microsoft view of JavaOne

    Threaded Messages (58)

  2. Don Box marvels at the flare of the Java community and laments the lack of personality in the Microsoft community. Why does it surprise him that a monopolistic pig attracts only boring folk? By definition a monopoly obsesses about the status quo, and this will always repell the spirit of early adopters.
  3. Don Box marvels at the flare of the Java community and laments the lack of personality in the Microsoft community. Why does it surprise him that a monopolistic pig attracts only boring folk? By definition a monopoly obsesses about the status quo, and this will always repell the spirit of early adopters.
    Don, like most Microsoft folk, is a reasonably nice guy etc. etc. Eric too (he's a very bright and helpful chap .. I'd hire him. ;-) I used to live in Redmond, and most of my friends there worked for Microsoft (or had recently worked for Microsoft or were about to return to Microsoft, depending on the status of their stock options.)

    What Microsoft isn't willing to "get" is that community is a two-way street. Asking customers for feedback, and even listening well to customers does not make a community. Since Microsoft is playing catch-up to Java in many areas in the market (not necessarily on a technical level, but on a penetration level for new app development) they are currently very willing to listen and improve in order to compete. Microsoft truism #1: They scrap hard when they're behind.

    In fact, Microsoft has always been that way. It's just that now, with Java being such an entrenched standard, that they have to really work at it. Before, you had to know people on the inside (that whole "face time" / "first name basis" thing, if you are unlucky enough to be caught in that vortex, eh Ted?) to have anyone listen to you. Now you can just comment on the architect's blog ;-)

    The difference in the Java market is that the community is made up of peers. It is _not_ simply a vendor / customer relationship of convenience. Instead, there are competitors, partners, customers, vendors, standards bodies, academics, bloggers, writers, etc. all interacting as peers. The Microsoft market has all of that too, but it's all "one level down" from Microsoft; Microsoft is always on the top, untouchable, unassailable, and _without peer_. By definition, Microsoft has no competition in _its_ market, and it never will. It is, in many ways, a feudal system. If you study history, a feudal system is literally incapable of _evolving_ to any other form; you either emancipate the serfs or you attempt to continue the tradition of the feudal lord until history has completely passed you by.

    I think (and time will prove me wrong or right) that Microsoft has to choose between being a monopoly (the feudal lord) and having that vibrant community that will actually _attract_ participation, not just of random developers, but of vendors. So far, they have valued the absolutist control far more than the vibrancy of the market. In the end, it is their undoing.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  4. save me from the Java idols[ Go to top ]

    Cameron:
    "By definition, Microsoft has no competition in _its_ market, and it never will. It is, in many ways, a feudal system. If you study history, a feudal system is literally incapable of _evolving_ to any other form"
    You could not be more wrong it is just that that is Microsoft greatest acomplishment, to have maintained the culture of a startup Silicon Valley company despite the size of the company today.

    Here is what the J2EE impractical "EJB Scientists" is up against:

    Ian P. McCullough (MS Intern 2003)
    "but at the end of the day, working there is like being an endowed researcher at the coolest, most well-funded university on earth, where they only let in the über-smart. It was easily the highest concentration of smart people I've ever had the pleasure of being around."

    On the other hand, if any system could be compared to a feudal system is Sun:

    "If you get a list of employees in SUN, u can draw a lot of "Family Trees". This is all because SUN hired most of the programmers throgh some reference or someone who is related to one of the employees without proper screening or interviews.."
    http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=17831#73715

    From history we learn that a feudal system envolves when somebody is given something for free, or too easy, without earning it. Like when a Duke or Baron was given a large piece of land at the whim of the king. Not when somebody has to work hard to win what they have.

    Cameron: "Since Microsoft is playing catch-up to Java in many areas in the market (not necessarily on a technical level, but on a penetration level for new app development"

    To be "the underdog" when you know you have the best equipment is just fun.

    Cameron: "Don Box marvels at the flare of the Java community and laments the lack of personality in the Microsoft community"

    Ha ha, MS guys is individualists that wants to have nothing to do with any group or community. Wherever I see a group gathering, I know that truth is first victim. There may be persons that see Marc Fleury or Larry Ellison or Scott Mcnealy as flamboyant and colerfull personalities. I am not one of them. I just see somebody desperate to get attention for uncompetive products.

    Eric Gunnerson on the other hand is well-mannered, courteous, low-keyed, charming and cool.A perfect example on that you can be a decent human being even if you are a genius. Don Box is "father" to all us in the Microsoft community.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  5. You could not be more wrong it is just that that is Microsoft greatest acomplishment, to have maintained the culture of a startup Silicon Valley company despite the size of the company today.
    Yup, Microsoft is just like a startup. No politics. Everyone is happy to work long hours. The pay doesn't matter. Stock options are the big thing. Yup.

    That wasn't true even 10 years ago. It's certainly not true today.

    p.s. no major disagreement on Sun, though ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  6. Microsoft vs. Java[ Go to top ]

    Where is the "mark as boring" button on this news group?

    :-)

    I do think that Cameron's argument is near the mark. The java community is more of a democracy of peers, which I think is basically why there is more involvement.

    Why have discussions about how to do something with .NET when there is only one source for "the" answer.
  7. Microsoft vs. Java[ Go to top ]

    Where is the "mark as boring" button on this news group?:-)I do think that Cameron's argument is near the mark. The java community is more of a democracy of peers, which I think is basically why there is more involvement.Why have discussions about how to do something with .NET when there is only one source for "the" answer.
    Because, unfortunately, the well at the source is often dry. Came up dry yesterday. Again. :(
  8. save me from the MS idols[ Go to top ]

    From history we learn that a feudal system envolves when somebody is given something for free, or too easy, without earning it. Like when a Duke or Baron was given a large piece of land at the whim of the king.
    Actually, I think that fuedalism dies when the serfs cannot pay for their land because of high taxation and revolt. It also helps when deisim comes along and rulership is no longer a divine right. The growing middle class also helped. However, the stab at Duke was a nice tough ;)
    Ha ha, MS guys is individualists that wants to have nothing to do with any group or community.
    Especially their consumer base who they have traditionally been able to alienate by not listening to their views. Also, as "individualists" they seem to score established standards (not good for people who want to use their tools and still interoperate) and as "individualists" they often seem to not even care if their individual ideas are sensible.
    Wherever I see a group gathering, I know that truth is first victim.
    Interesting that you state truth is the victim when you misquoted Cameron.
    There may be persons that see Marc Fleury or Larry Ellison or Scott Mcnealy as flamboyant and colerfull personalities.
    I am not at all sure how to respond to this. Larry Ellison is the Oracle boss and as such lumping him in with McNealy and Fluery seems a bit odd. However, the Java community accepts everyone even those may not agree with because sometimes those who we may not agree with have good ideas, too. If we only accepted people in our group that thought as we do, that would make us a) either an inbred family tree or b) a group of rugged individualists who think exactly same.
    I just see somebody desperate to get attention for uncompetive products.
    How many downloads does Oracle, JBoss, and Sun have? Uncompetitive products is flat out wrong.

    <blockquoteDon Box is "father" to all us in the Microsoft community. Don't forget Charles Petzold!
  9. just take them away please[ Go to top ]

    Chris,

    It is not that I do not agree with their technical opinions that is the problem. The problem is "how they are as human beings". :) I just happen to appreciate people that are well-mannered, intellectual, laidback and cool. Like Eric Gunnerson and Anders Hejlsberg, but also Rod Johnson and Juergen Hoeller.

    I most violently disagree with people that shout strong opinions with a "mission". It doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, just take them away. To try saving them from their folly by saying they have "flare" or "colorful" is just pathetic.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  10. common interests?[ Go to top ]

    P.S.
    Notice that both Cameron and Cedric Beust have examples from Whidbey in their blogs today.

    hi hi
  11. common interests?[ Go to top ]

    P.S.Notice that both Cameron and Cedric Beust have examples from Whidbey in their blogs today. hi hi
    I bet this "open-mindedness" thing baffles you.

    It will come to you. One day.

    --
    Cedric
    http://beust.com/weblog
  12. ?[ Go to top ]

    I bet this "open-mindedness" thing baffles you.
    It will come to you. One day.
    Touchy today aren't we? And to think that I almost added you to the list of reasonable fellows above! But you were left out because of the one thing that I disremembered in the list. "And have a drop of humor".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  13. ?[ Go to top ]

    I bet this "open-mindedness" thing baffles you.It will come to you. One day.
    Touchy today aren't we? And to think that I almost added you to the list of reasonable fellows above! But you were left out because of the one thing that I disremembered in the list. "And have a drop of humor".RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Oh so you're one of these people who absolutely need to see a smiley to realize that humor is implied.

    Sorry, can't help you there.

    --
    Cedric
  14. just take them away please[ Go to top ]

    I most violently disagree with people that shout strong opinions with a "mission". It doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, just take them away. To try saving them from their folly by saying they have "flare" or "colorful" is just pathetic.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    I swear that you often describe yourself without knowing it.
  15. just take them away please[ Go to top ]

    I most violently disagree with people that shout strong opinions with a "mission". It doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, just take them away.

    Am I the only person here to see some irony?
  16. save me from the Java idols[ Go to top ]

    Ian P. McCullough (MS Intern 2003)"but at the end of the day, working there is like being an endowed researcher at the coolest, most well-funded university on earth, where they only let in the über-smart. It was easily the highest concentration of smart people I've ever had the pleasure of being around."
    Such a foul dose of historical revision. In the early years of Java penetration, Microsoft was in luddite denial of Moore's Law and repeatedly insisted that virtual machinery was a waste of processing cycles. Now it finds itself a technological follower, and (as Cameron mentioned) utterly lacks the goodwill of early adopters. The above phrases "most well-funded" and "pleasure of being around" suggest a sort of groupie mentality rooted in conformity and presumptuousness -- not exactly what I'd associate with innovation. Then there's the matter of being a recently convicted monopolist that reenforces the air of social darwinism inherent in the puffing above. We're talking about a very big corporate machine with Enron-like appeal to some minds.
  17. Brian Miller:
    technological follower - lacks goodwill - groupie mentality - convicted monopolist - corporate machine - like Enron
    Spoken in the true Java spirit. Thank you for illustrating my point! Far from being an asset the Java community is a liability to Java, a place where 70% of the population behave like Talibans that not only doesn't know how to play cricket but do not even know the word.

    Daniel H Steinberg:Outreach

    But with that said I do have noticed an enormous improvement in the last two years. Credit must be given when credit is due! Slashdot is worse, thereafter Javalobby, and an TSS is best (relatively speaking, that is). But even in Slashdot I see changes.
    With this speed the Java society will join the rest of the human race in 4-5 years or so.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  18. With this speed the Java society will join the rest of the human race in 4-5 years or so.
    This concept is laughable. You are stuck in the 1990s vendor lock-in mentality, and assume that we will revert to that same irresponsible behavior. Rolf, we already graduated from that school. When will you?

    (Or are you just forgetting your smileys again?)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  19. With this speed the Java society will join the rest of the human race in 4-5 years or so.
    This concept is laughable. You are stuck in the 1990s vendor lock-in mentality, and assume that we will revert to that same irresponsible behavior. Rolf, we already graduated from that school. When will you?(Or are you just forgetting your smileys again?)Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    Sorry, I don't buy the vendor lock in argument.

    You still have to migrate...which is still an &*!@!load of work. It's not drag and drop and won't be for quite some time.

    I've been migrating client by client on a Java platform for the past year. If it was as easy as everyone claims it would have been done in 2 weeks. Object Oriented Database persistance doesn't make it easy to do either. According to my DBA's it makes it even harder to handle with the Object IDs.

    I question how many people are really getting down in the trenches, doing the grunt work. Or are they just pontificating on their blog hill down to all that will listen...hoping people start using their framework so they can sell consulting fees.
  20. Rolf, I noticed you ignored what anyone who's been following the drama since Java first arrived knows:

    "In the early years of Java penetration, Microsoft was in luddite denial of Moore's Law and repeatedly insisted that virtual machinery was a waste of processing cycles. "

    With .NET, obviously, Microsoft now believes virtual machinery is going to save the world, agreed? Why the 180? Don't they have the customer's best interest at heart? The answer is obvious: they don't. If they did, they would have supported Java and not tried to force countless millions in investment on a new, proprietary and unnecessary platform. They have created .NET for one reason: to start a new cycle of revenue. Please note, I don't blame them for it (it's a smart and typical thing to do in business), I just think we should call a spade a spade.

    Cheers,
    Steve Q.
  21. you are right, It is a good drama[ Go to top ]

    Steve: "Microsoft was in luddite denial of Moore's Law"

    What are you saying? When MS was doing Java they did it better than anybody else and if it wasn't for Sun's lawsuit Java would have benefited enormously and we would have had a faster, more consistent and less memory-consuming Java compatible over all platforms, but still with the possibility to optimize for a certain OS like Linux or Windows.

    Cameron: "Microsoft do not listen to customers!" What kind of discussion is that? Why don’t you stick to the good old "Microsoft is not secure type of thing!" :)

    But this is verging dangerously close to "my Daddy is better than your Daddy" type of discussion. We just have to wait and see. If you have been participating in TSS for 2-3 years you can not deny that practically all things I advocated have come true in one way or other or are under way. Track record must have some significance.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  22. Steve: "Microsoft was in luddite denial of Moore's Law"What are you saying? When MS was doing Java they did it better than anybody else
    If you are talking about JVMs, then you are right, Microsoft did have a better VM. However, if you are talking about J++ or J#, then that's just indefensible. J++ was locked into Java 1.1.8 when I was writing Java 1.3 code.
  23. you are right, It is a good drama[ Go to top ]

    "and if it wasn't for Sun's lawsuit Java would have benefited enormously". Interesting way to put it. So let's see, modifying Java to work only on Microsoft platforms (that is what the lawsuit was trying to prevent) would have benefitted Java "enormously"? How???

    "and we would have had a faster, more consistent and less memory-consuming Java compatible over all platforms". Rolf, this is beyond the absurd. You must have had a good chuckle after typing that sentence in ;)


    Cheers,
    Steve Q.
  24. you are right, It is a good drama[ Go to top ]

    "and if it wasn't for Sun's lawsuit Java would have benefited enormously". Interesting way to put it. So let's see, modifying Java to work only on Microsoft platforms (that is what the lawsuit was trying to prevent) would have benefitted Java "enormously"? How???
    We might get our chance to see what the result might have been with [MS].Net and Mono.
  25. you are right, It is a good drama[ Go to top ]

    Mark,

    If you want to see what Java would have looked liked you only need to go to C#/Mono. A faster, more consistent and less memory-consuming language compatible between platforms, but still with the possibility to optimize for a certain OS like Linux or Windows when compatibility is not needed. Just as I said.

    It is the last five words that is important. Of course you must be able to optimize for a certain OS. So in this fictive "Java-word not to be thank to Sun" each OS vendor builds to the common standard (agreed upon in democratic spirit!), Sun is responsible for Solaris implementation, MS for the windows implementation and Open Source (read IBM) for the Linux implementation. Once that is in place, it must be legal to build extensions like what Mono has done with gtk# when compatibility is not needed. Or do you want us all to wrestle with Swing?

    So then you would have a choice. If you want platform compatibility, you keep to that standard, if not you can squeeze every possible performance out of the system.

    Of course Sun did not want that. They knew that they,
    1) Could not build as good VM as MS.
    2) Could not build as good extensions as MS.

    Henceforth the lawsuit.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  26. Mark,If you want to see what Java would have looked liked you only need to go to C#/Mono. A faster, more consistent and less memory-consuming language compatible between platforms...
    I assume C# only runs on x86 chips, which doesn't seem very cross-platform to me, especially not in a world increasingly processed by cell phones. And you're changing the subject. The issue is Microsoft's brightest mind misses genuine community. He's lonely. You obviously miss it too. So how's the grassroots collaboration at TSS.NET? Any chit chat about independent innovation? Or is it just an ad hoc relay of Microsoft's proprietary material and Mono vapor, lustily lapped up by unimaginative scabs? Not that I care. It's just that your eager presence here proves our thread well.
  27. Brian: "your eager presence here"

    It is a little hobby. I think it is a shame not to have someone countering so much massive misinformation.

    Brian: "C# only runs on x86 chips"
    All in good time. It runs on OSX!

    The whole story is entertaining like one of Aesop Fables. Or the story of the fisherwoman. She got three wishes from the fish and the two first was fulfilled but when she asked to be God she loosed all.

    Sun wanted to be God and dictate for everyone including the 10 times bigger Microsoft how everything was to be. And loosed all just like the fisherwoman.
    The situation for Sun is far worse than if they had not sued.

    A moral story to common enlightening.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  28. you are right, It is a good drama[ Go to top ]

    Maybe Sun should have invested in some other company to sue Microsoft on their behalf? But no, no self respecting company could go that low :)


    Cheers,
    Steve Q.
  29. I think it is a shame not to have someone countering so much massive misinformation.
    What are you talking about? The whole TSS community has been doing that with you for months now.

    You remind me of this guy driving up a one-way street and swearing at all these people who keep honking their horns at you.

    --
    Cedric
  30. you are right, It is a good drama[ Go to top ]

    Mark,If you want to see what Java would have looked liked you only need to go to C#/Mono. A faster, more consistent and less memory-consuming language compatible between platforms, but still with the possibility to optimize for a certain OS like Linux or Windows when compatibility is not needed. Just as I said.
    Not exactly what I meant. I don't think we have the final outcome yet. But we do have hints of what is probably to come. Your points hit them mostly on the head. Only you tout some as good while, in reality, they are either not good or don't emphasize the correct [bad] thing.

    As I gaze into my crystal ball (all is fair) I see two .Nets. While they share syntax and some core apis, they are effectively not able interchangeable. So in reality they are two different platforms and languages. The Linux.Net VM is just as fast the Windows, because this time the playing field has been leveled because the Linux.Net developers have access to the OS code. My crystal ball begins to cloud as I see MS.Net falling behind and the owners of it determining a course of action to defend their turf.
  31. a difference as big as night and day[ Go to top ]

    Your post is exactly an example on the misinformation I speak about. It is Sun that sues all the time, not Microsoft. On the contrary, it is MS that gets sued all the time :) Their so called "patents" is only for self-defense from a broken system.

    Or perhaps you can tell me,
    How many times has Microsoft initiated a patent infringement lawsuit?
    Were any of these lawsuits instrumental in eliminating a competitor?

    so? Zero? Ok

    I can guarantee you that Novell and MS will keep the important part of the framework in sync, no matter how much certain parties don't want them to.

    You see in my world it is Sun and their allies that are the villains, MS is on the good side. Of course there is to be a big .NET competition between MS and Novell/Xmian but it is going to be a good-natured fight unlike the Sun/MS unfortunate affair.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  32. a difference as big as night and day[ Go to top ]

    Your post is exactly an example on the misinformation I speak about. It is Sun that sues all the time, not Microsoft. On the contrary, it is MS that gets sued all the time :) Their so called "patents" is only for self-defense from a broken system.Or perhaps you can tell me,How many times has Microsoft initiated a patent infringement lawsuit?Were any of these lawsuits instrumental in eliminating a competitor?so? Zero? Ok
    Re-read it. No where does is say suing. Just determining a course of action. Maybe that course is "if you can beat them, join them". Even so, I can't see how gazing into a crystal ball can be misinformation. Definitely not as much as coming out and saying for sure what the future will be. Lets see. Who does that? Let's read further.
    I can guarantee you that Novell and MS will keep the important part of the framework in sync, no matter how much certain parties don't want them to. You see in my world it is Sun and their allies that are the villains, MS is on the good side.
    Too bad you are in your own [little] world. Could you stay there? :)
     Of course there is to be a big .NET competition between MS and Novell/Xmian but it is going to be a good-natured fight unlike the Sun/MS unfortunate affair.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Ahh. There it is. The foretelling. Like it is fact based on fact.

    Yup. Microsoft is such a big teddy bear. So soft and cuddly. :) Novell too. I'm sure they will play nice together seeing how MS almost destroyed them. No reason for them to want to not play nicely. "Paybacks are a ..."
  33. a fundamental difference[ Go to top ]

    Thank you for the good example. Yes Novell lost against Microsoft. But never did you hear any squirmy excuses from Novell, or cry-babies. They lost in fair fight, now they have regrouped and coming back. And they are not exactly alone, 500.000+ Open Source developer are backing them up.

    The position between "us" and the Sun/Java/Oracle group is not a technology thing; it is an animosity between fundamental different types of people that runs deep. I like to see myself as easygoing, open-minded, intellectual, educated, tolerant in the style of Voltaire, Diderot, Jonathan Swift, Benjamin Franklin, Mark Twain and so on, in short a representant for an enlightened age. I detest and abhor the ignorant vulgar and common, bureaucrats, impractical theoreticians, pompous bigots, rudeness and all the other boring qualities I find in abundance among Java zealots, worst of all is this oscillations between arrogance and self-pity.

    "There are no defeats in a good cause, only delayed victories".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  34. a fundamental difference[ Go to top ]

    I detest and abhor the ignorant vulgar and common, bureaucrats, impractical theoreticians, pompous bigots, rudeness and all the other boring qualities I find in abundance among Java zealots, worst of all is this oscillations between arrogance and self-pity.
    Still Microsoft has lost (perhaps irrevocably) some crucial elements of dominance: the goodwill and attention of enterprise developers. Microsoft tools and architecture don't captivate our scene any more and likely won't ever again. Our community has simply evolved beyond anti-competitive supply. Microsoft lost the mindshare.
  35. a fundamental difference[ Go to top ]

    Still Microsoft has lost (perhaps irrevocably) some crucial elements of dominance: the goodwill and attention of enterprise developers. Microsoft tools and architecture don't captivate our scene any more and likely won't ever again. Our community has simply evolved beyond anti-competitive supply. Microsoft lost the mindshare.
    I disagree with your point, only that I believe the Java community is not the friendliest community. One thing about MS guys, is they seem to back a common goal, meanwhile the Java guys run around in an apparent controlled anarchy...supposedly looking to win.

    The difficulty is, if you're new to the community, you're almost shunned as if to say "Where the F have you been?" It's not easy to get involved and figure out what's going on.

    There's a couple of COBOL guys in my group at work...I can't imagine plunging them into the Java community...they'd be lost instantly (as they would in the MS world). How do you attract people to the community, when it is so difficult to understand direction? To me, MS's direction is much easier to understand. Communities are only as strong as their ability to attract new members.

    I'm here out of happenstance. My company went a Java direction...pretty soon there's a good chance we'll shift to .NET...and I'll probably end up going in that direction...if not, I'll probably stay here...just because I've been implementing Java solutions...but not because it's an easy place to understand...I've probably gotten more confused since I came here. It still boggles my mind to see OO based databases, when my experience with them has been horrid...and I keep thinking..why do people want to use these? Have they ever tried to migrate this stuff? Yet, that's the direction people are going...so I stay confused.
  36. a fundamental difference[ Go to top ]

    I disagree with your point, only that I believe the Java community is not the friendliest community. One thing about MS guys, is they seem to back a common goal, meanwhile the Java guys run around in an apparent controlled anarchy...supposedly looking to win.
    I guess the difference is the MS "community" is more like Stepford while the Java community is more like a normal neighborhood. You have your good neighbors and your bad. You can find neighbors who will watch your dog, etc. But there are neighbors who call the cops anytime you drop a trash can cover. Sometimes those are the only ones you see cause the rest are at work.

    Guess what I am getting at is that the Java community is really a community so people feel more free to express their opinions. And think. You should have seen the Microsoft "community" when .Net started coming out, especially the VBers and C++ers. I was there. Think things that go on here are bad? MS threw the VBers a little bone and, well, I don't know how the C++ers are taking it. But they finally became resigned to the fact that is was business as usually and they get what Microsoft gives them. Good or bad.

    There are places in the Java world where help is available and there are nice people. Gotta get in the right neighborhood for you.
  37. Joining the Java Community[ Go to top ]

    Hey Mike, your comments are interesting, because if true, they don't speak well to the Java community. However, I don't find them true based simple on the fact that they are not true for me. However, I'd be interested to know what you think the barriers to entry into the Java community are.

    For instance, if one wants to be involved, sites like Soureforge advertise projects that need Java coders to help out. The projects on Apache.org always publish project roadmaps and ways to get started. In general, I've found the people in the community are fairly approachable and as a whole, the newbie tutorials blow away anything I've seen in VB or .NET. Then again, I go home and write code for fun so I may be unique.

    I would acknowledge it takes effort, but is it difficult? Or is it simply more difficult than joining the .NET community? Do you think that .NET will stay an easier to open community once it has been around for a few years like Java? Do you like being interrogated? Where were you on the night of February 14th?????

    Then again, I am naturally gregarious, wonderfully charming and superbly handsome to boot! :)
  38. Joining the Java Community[ Go to top ]

    I'm not saying .NET is any better. I'm just saying that with Microsoft setting direction, it's much easier to get a roadmap of where to go.

    With Java, it seems everyone questions Sun's direction. This is a double edged sword. One the one hand you get lots of great innovation. On the other hand, you have no idea what to use.

    Case in point...if I'm just starting out with Java, where do I go? Sun's site. They tell me to develop web applications using Servlets and JSPs, and maybe soon this new thing called JSF.

    Now if I go more open source, I learn there's about 10 or 20 different frameworks, which all handle things differently. The thing about the community, is it tends to slam Sun's technology in favor of its own.

    So what should I learn? What Sun's standards are, or should I pick a framework and hope it succeeds? If I pick, say Struts 2-3 years ago...great pick! If I don't...then I may be hung out to dry so to speak. Not to say that I didn't learn something...but my resume may be hindered. I mean, I just left doing COBOL or Fortran or something...why would I want another dead thing on the resume?

    The issue is that the Java community doesn't have a firm idea of how it wants to accomplish its goals, so it goes off in a dozen different directions. If you're just learning something, you have no idea which one you want to go in, and you end up being confused.

    My point is, the Java comminity needs to do a better job of reaching out to those new to Java in getting a clear message as to what they should be learning. I read a thread on here the other day claiming that the J2SCP and the JWCDC were basically pointless in terms of Certifications. As a new to Java programmer, I would have thought those were important. Now you find that many in a comminity conclude they aren't because they aren't testing you on the framework of the month?

    To me it's extremely arrogant and shortsighted to do so. And IMHO, it's Sun's job to provide concrete direction (Which Microsoft does do...even if you don't agree with the direction) and to make an effort to reign in some of the comminity to make sure the message is consistant to ensure the transition of new developers. And it's the community's job to make sure it doesn't end up being such a confusing place so that businesses use their software.

    In the end, who is the Community's customer? It's not each other....they're already there. It's the new developer, and the business decision makers. If they find that the community is confused, they won't buy into the technology and might choose something else that appears to have the direction set in stone. That means less Java developers and fewer Java installations, which ultimately means fewer Java jobs.
  39. on self compliments[ Go to top ]

    I like to see myself as easygoing, open-minded, intellectual, educated, tolerant in the style of Voltaire, Diderot, Jonathan Swift, Benjamin Franklin, Mark Twain and so on, in short a representant for an enlightened age.
    While in a group self-indulgent mood, I like to think of myself as a 6'4" (~2m) hunk with black, wavy hair and a great tan, bulging biceps and a really big .. um nevermind. Also, I like to think of myself as having several PhD's and PhPhPhD's from various ivy league and fine European institutions. Also, I like to think of myself as a world-class champion sailor, winner of several America's Cups, a fine sommelier, a great poet, and an elder statesman. Oh yeah, also I will live forever unless someone cuts my head off because there can be only one. And the force is strong in my family. And I'm a ninja.

    Complimentary words mean so much more coming from someone else, don't you think?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  40. a typical specimen[ Go to top ]

    Cameron: "Complimentary words mean so much more coming from someone else, don't you think?"

    Yes you so are right so therefore I will give you a compliment: I think you fit in very well and are a good representant for the Java community!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  41. The thing is[ Go to top ]

    The thing is Rolf, most of your complaints are products of your worldview.

    It's quite possible to go off and develope PD/OS/Commerical java code, using the base SDK and no thought leader 'mandated' APIs/toolkits etc.

    I think it boils down to some people really like MS because their is only one way to do things in the MS world and MS tell you what it is and everyone does it like that.

    I used to develope apps in C++ for WinNT, most people at the time would have done that using MFC, I hated MFC, it just didn't fit my mindset and it was painful to grok. So I used the Win32 API and my own ClassLib. My apps still worked, but I felt like I was doing something wrong :-)
  42. like confused hens[ Go to top ]

    I hope you do not think that Word & Excel is developed with MFC, do you?
    The use Win32 API and their own Classlibs just like you. In this way they build the world most successful applications ever. They are real programmers unlike we web application people that just draws some reports from the database with simple data entry forms.

    Lyndon,
    I think it boils down to some people really like MS because their is only one way to do things in the MS world and MS tell you what it is and everyone does it like that.
    So it is better to run around like confused hens? While the best people is leaving the ship?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  43. like confused hens[ Go to top ]

    "The use Win32 API and their own Classlibs just like you"

    Microsoft doesn't use their own classlib for building Office??? Hm, does Microsoft even use Windows on their desktop?

    "They are real programmers unlike we web application people that just draws some reports from the database with simple data entry forms. " Shucks, you're making me blush. I've been programming Windows desktop apps for a long time and I've seen most of what's out there: Win16 API (ouch), Win32 API (eek), Borland OWL (hmm), Delphi VCL (woo hoo!), MFC (ouch)... Nothing comes close to Delphi for rapidly building performant Windows applications. I guess that's why Anders was bought, huh? Too bad not everyone's for sale, ahem Miguel.


    Cheers,
    Steve Q.
  44. like confused hens[ Go to top ]

    I hope you do not think that Word & Excel is developed with MFC, do you?The use Win32 API and their own Classlibs just like you. In this way they build the world most successful applications ever.
    That was the greatest spiritual problem I had with Microsoft when I developed for Windows. Microsoft artificially handicapped the market by hording the slick pieces for its own Office applications, and the independent vendors were stuck with whatever inferior crap Microsoft chose to donate. It's as if there have always been two Windows frameworks: one for the peons and another for their overlord. Microsoft shipped everything, but was very careful to document only a lame subset. It reflects upon Microsoft's corporate ethos.
  45. The thing is[ Go to top ]

    I think it boils down to some people really like MS because their is only one way to do things in the MS world and MS tell you what it is and everyone does it like that.
    It was even worse than that when I was developing for MS-Windows. Often Microsoft never revelead how to use the product, and to truly be an expert a developer needed a copy of "Undocumented Windows" on his shelf. Microsoft's architecture was so arbitrary and the official documentation was so poor. At least with Java I can browse the JDK source code if there's ever a question about a boundary case.
  46. The spirit of early adopters[ Go to top ]

    Back in 1998 we started using Java. For our country, Ecuador, we were being really early adopters by then. During more than 3 years we tried to lure the big Java players down here (Oracle, IBM, Sun) to work together on Java projects. They rather stick to the status quo: selling their big hardware or software, using their own consultants, and in general behaving like a closed family. Enter .NET circa 2001: we were well received and started using the early betas, we started to do projects together. In 2003, we got access to what was going to become Visual Studio 2005 and Sql Server 2005, and now we are part of a training/feedback process that allow us to be ahead of our competition. The Java big players down here still work like a closed family, and the brave Java start-ups have to fight for survival. I consider myself a software early adopter, whether it comes from Java or .NET, I love playing with Tiger and reading about EJB 3.0 as much as working with ASP.NET 2.0 or reading about SOA in .NET. It's only that, at least down here, I get more support and helping hands from Microsoft than from the Java corporate backers. Of course, I have no illusions about Microsoft: they do what they do because they understand I bring business to them whereas IBM, Sun, and Oracle are sure they can do very well without me, thank you. I think you will agree this attitude doesn't exactly attract early adopters.
  47. the silent are also guilty[ Go to top ]

    What I can not understand is why are all normal decent Java people silent? It says on the top of TSS page, 375953 members. If we assume that 70% is raving fanatics, like Brian Miller here, there still are 112678 left - presumable reasonable people.

    So why does they not react? Do they think that it is good PR to be represented by a person like Brian Miller and the 263275 similar to him? Don they not understand that the whole IT industry is laughing?

    That is what astonish and amazes me most.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  48. the silent are also guilty[ Go to top ]

    Don they not understand that the whole IT industry is laughing?
    I consider it highly unlikely that you're correct. Our sector isn't laughing at us Java developers. Microsoft has significantly lost respect with the advent of virtual machinery and other platform abstractions. Eventually this lost respect will affect Microsoft's profit, if this isn't already happening. National and regional governments are wholesale dumping Microsoft. Universities are introducing programming with languages such as Java and Python. Acronyms such as LAMP are gaining traction. Shopping for solutions has become much more open. MDA is offering platform independent design with pluggable targeting. IBM offers Linux for its mainframes. Sun sells Linux boxes to compete against its own Solaris. The nature of our market is changing. Microsoft inventions such as ODBC and SOAP help accelerate this change. NASA chose Java for its Mars rover's command center and photographic render farm. Can you cite literature supporting your claim that our industry is laughing at the Java community?
  49. The level of idiotic crap in your post has no match. At least you are innovative in one area! My advice to you is that when you make a fool out of yourself you should at the very least try to keep a certain amount of dignity and aplomb and not compound to the folly.
  50. laughing or looking in disbelief[ Go to top ]

    The level of idiotic crap in your post has no match. At least you are innovative in one area! My advice to you is that when you make a fool out of yourself you should at the very least try to keep a certain amount of dignity and aplomb and not compound to the folly.
    Oddly, that is exactly what I was going to post to you. :)

    Or did you leave off "Note to self:" ? :)
  51. The person you are insulting posted a reasoned argument. You haven't argued against it, merely insulted that person. And again, you have accused another person of the exact thing that you are guilty of.

    ps. I consider myself to be one of the reasonable silent majority of java developers - sometimes your arguments are right, but then again you make so many of them that by mere chance some of them will be right.
  52. Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,
    The level of idiotic crap in your post has no match. At least you are innovative in one area! My advice to you is that when you make a fool out of yourself you should at the very least try to keep a certain amount of dignity and aplomb and not compound to the folly.
    This approach to reason isn't helping to make the case for your previous claim:
    I like to see myself as easygoing, open-minded, intellectual, educated, tolerant in the style of Voltaire, Diderot, Jonathan Swift, Benjamin Franklin, Mark Twain and so on, in short a representant for an enlightened age. I detest and abhor the ignorant vulgar and common, bureaucrats, impractical theoreticians, pompous bigots, rudeness and all the other boring qualities ..
    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  53. Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde?[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

    You say so? I am so sorry. My advisement was nothing but 100% philanthropical, indented as guidance and to provide this fellow with a counsel he can bear with him through life, to advantage and benefit.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  54. Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde?[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,You say so? I am so sorry. My advisement was nothing but 100% philanthropical, indented as guidance and to provide this fellow with a counsel he can bear with him through life, to advantage and benefit.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Thats odd. I didn't realize philanthropic enterprises now involve sledgehammers.

    "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime." I guess we can add. "Horsewhip him while teaching him and he won't forget."
  55. Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde?[ Go to top ]

    I guess we can add. "Horsewhip him while teaching him and he won't forget."
    Rolf is inflamed. His cricket remark was beyond the pale of decent discourse, and I'm surprised TSS didn't yank his account for it. Not much he's said in this thread is very interesting. What is intriguing is what his motivation could be? Like Don Box, he seems lonely for bright colleagues, with the added affliction of what could be low grade Tourette's syndrome. These two have just further validated my spiritual step up to Java during the aboriginal JDK 1.0. Rolf and Don show that the other side of the fence isn't nearly as green in any emotional way.
  56. Ad Nauseum[ Go to top ]

    "Horsewhip him while teaching him and he won't forget."
    I think it's a bit more complex than that .. something along the lines of:

    1) Denigrate other viewpoints with supposed air of aloofness
    2) Compliment self using author names from Nathalie's blog
    3) Launch ad hominem attacks upon anyone who disagrees
    4) Feign surprise at reasoned responses
    5) Repeat ad infinitum, using latin when possible

    ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  57. talk about the real problem[ Go to top ]

    Wasting so much time discussing my person and faults is just to distract from the real issue.

    Sun and the Java community has presented the expensive Java EJB Server as the fastest and most scalable when in reality it was the slowest and least scalable, becoming responsible for the most expensive fiasco ever in the history of the IT industry. That is the problem.

    I could be funny if it was not so serious.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  58. Ad Nauseum[ Go to top ]

    "Horsewhip him while teaching him and he won't forget."
    I think it's a bit more complex than that .. something along the lines of:1) Denigrate other viewpoints with supposed air of aloofness2) Compliment self using author names from Nathalie's blog3) Launch ad hominem attacks upon anyone who disagrees4) Feign surprise at reasoned responses5) Repeat ad infinitum, using latin when possible;-)Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    You forgot
    6) change subject when challenged
  59. Cameron is a border case[ Go to top ]

    Sorry if I changed the subject. The problem is that I can not answer ad hominem attacks without doing the same myself. (and be marked as noisy and get a warning). It is a little boring only to defend oneself..

    But I will try.

    "The level of idiotic crap in your post has no match"

    That was not an attack on him, but on the things he wrote.

    "At least you are innovative in one area!"

    So, a compliment. What is wrong in that?

    "My advice to you is that when you make a fool out of yourself you should at the very least try to keep a certain amount of dignity and aplomb and not compound to the folly."

    That is a good advice which I follow it myself! :)

    The rule is, to attack any group is allowed, but not a special person. However, if you are a public person, you are supposed to stand for it. (like Scott McNealy, Lars Ellison, Marc Fleury, Bill Gates and the American president have to.. :)

    I would argue that Cameron should be included in the group, on the reason of his position in the Java community.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (cannot or can not?)