Discussions

News: JDocs.com: Sun protects itself, Javalobby wants to move on

  1. There has been some controversy around the new community documentation effort, JDocs.com. Sun told Javalobby to take down the standard documentation for J2SE/EE/ME. There was a large stink over this, as JDocs.com is a community effort.

    Do you think that Sun is just standing up for its IP? Or do they just not understand grass roots and the community?

    Let's build the greatest Java knowledge resource together!

    What Happened to J2SE and other Sun APIs?

    http://jroller.com/page/shareme/20040820#sun_censors_javalobby

    Threaded Messages (56)

  2. We'd like to thank everyone who has sent us notes of encouragement. There's no good reason to fan the flames of controversy on this issue, and it will be better for everyone if we simply move on. Hopefully we'll now be able to get our effort back on track for the good-spirited purpose it is intended for.

    The ironic thing about the entire episode is that there are tons of places where the Sun API javadocs are online and have been since JDK 1.0. Sun has singled out JDocs.com for a special kind of love and attention, and it isn't at all clear why?

    Their position that they must "protect" themsleves by ensuring javadocs only appear at sun.com simply doesn't hold water. The most trivial Google searches show that javadocs for Sun APIs are all over the web. Perhaps one day Sun's real motive will come clear, but as of now the JDocs service has been pretty severely compromised by their demands.

    Some have suggested that the presence of ads is the problem, although Sun has made quite clear this is not the case. Regardless, we would happily have removed ad tags from those pages if that was the issue.

    Our primary goal has been to supply a useful system for sharing API-related knowledge in the developer community. Ironically, it was part of an effort to move past all the political drama that too often surrounds Java.

    We'll be putting up a page to share some of the amazing emails we have received, and we'll keep hoping that eventually Sun will recognize there is no reason not to cooperate with longtime friends and Java supporters at Javalobby.

    Life goes on... There are a hundred other APIs in the system, so please support it by sharing your knowledge with others there.

    Thanks,
    Rick Ross
  3. Link to J2SE1.4[ Go to top ]

    Hmm..... since JDOCS have links to sun.com, for example:

    http://www.jdocs.com/j2se/1.4.2/api/index.html which redirects/forward to http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/api/index.html

    I think thats good enough?

    I guess i might have missed something important. Anyway, I would like to know whether it make a big difference hosting it on JDOC's own server than sun.com's server..

    Anyhow, kudos to Rick & all those that are involved for setting up such a wonderful site. :)

    Cheers,
    Tuan
  4. Link to J2SE1.4[ Go to top ]

    The big value in JDocs.com for me is the ability to comment javadocs. At the moment, it is not possible to comment J2SE1.4 or view the comments already posted against J2SE1.4 (before it was removed). This is why, to me, it is not enough to have a link to Sun's Javadocs. Many times I find myself hitting google because J2SE Javadocs do not fully explain the behavior of a method or class. It would be nice to save that time and have knowledge in a central location. At the very least, Sun should consider employing JDocs.com technology on their own server. That would give them the control they desire, and the central place for knowledge against the Javadocs that I desire.
  5. Link to J2SE1.4[ Go to top ]

    Why not all of us come out with some work arounds and forward them to sun?

    Of course, we need to know Suns constraints first. Would anyone from Sun like to post their views on this issue?

    Is Sun concerned that people would post bad comments on their APIs? Or are they worried that people with malicious intent would simply put misleading comments?
  6. a conspiracy theory[ Go to top ]

    Could the fact that JDocs gives us more than a regular Sun API documentation be the reason for Sun's denial to Jdocs ? Could they be afraid that eventually people will get to jdocs before javadocs and that could jeopardise any leverage sun might have on java as a result of javadocs?

    May be they had some project lined up (may be near completion) that actully is revamping the javadocs?

    Well so much for conspiracy theories - I have done well with Javadocs upto this point - but certainly Jdocs is welcome!
  7. The ironic thing about the entire episode is that there are tons of places where the Sun API javadocs are online and have been since JDK 1.0. Sun has singled out JDocs.com for a special kind of love and attention, and it isn't at all clear why?
    These "tons of places" usually just hold plain copies of javadocs _without_ added stuff. These places are usually colleges with slow access/badwitdth restrictions to the internet. They host _plain copies_ of javadocs, that is all. JDocs shows Flash ads (are they ads? I cannot tell for sure, because Flash is disabled in my browser along with all other ActiveX controls). JDocs does not check for flash feature on the client, it wants to install Flash player each time I access the page. This pisses me off, I think that this can irritate Sun too a little bit. One thing is when their javadocs hosted on *.edu website, and another is the possible added value and possible income from advertisement.
  8. This sucks![ Go to top ]

    I was one of the people who were very excited to see JDocs. Sun seems to have a problem understanding who their friends are. I have never supported open-sourcing Java before, but I have changed my position now.

    What the heck would Sun lose by this? It has the ability to get excellent feedback from the user community for each of its classes and methods from JDocs. I want a place where standard java apis can be discussed and analyzed, with sample code if necessary. Sun is not providing one.

    May be the newfound friendship with M$oft has influenced Sun too.
  9. Again, this is an effort from Rick Ross all meant for financial benefit. He thought this way could draw more attention to his site therby increasing page views to convince his advertisers to throw money at him. Rick, remember you're dealing with a community consisting of people who are far smarter than you.
  10. Thank goodness for mighty intellect[ Go to top ]

    Well, Francis, I don't know you any more than you know me, but I'll just assume it's true you are as much smarter than me as you say you are. That said, I'd still like to point out a few facts, and we'll see if your superior intellect can process them:

    1 - Someone else posted the article here, and it was fairly balanced IMO.

    2 - The Javalobby message asking people to post comments is not at all about controversy and blames no-one in any way for anything.

    3 - My reply in this thread, the very first, said clearly that we want to move on and do not wish to fan flames.

    4 - The JDocs project is an effort to deliver a useful service, one which may help those of us who do not possess such mighty intellect. Javalobby hopes to help developers share useful knowledge and be more successful with Java.

    5 - I am certainly not smart enough to understand why it is so objectionable to generate revenue from a service that users find worth using? The last time I checked we had bills to pay and need to generate revenue to pay them.

    You may indeed be very, very bright Francis. That doesn't mean you're not a jerk. Even someone as stupid as I am can detect preliminary clues that you may be...

    Rick Ross
  11. Rick Ross, stop being greedy[ Go to top ]

    Rick,

    Tell me. You placed the Javadocs for the JDK at your commercial site. Sun said, no, make a link to it at their site instead. Use your "big brains" to tell me Why Sun is not being fair here? What is wrong with that? Does the content change if you make a link to their site as opposed to you placing the real meat on your commercial site? Your aim is simply to split the community. I personally think you have something against Sun. As I have mentioned before in a previous post, this whole fuss is meant to draw attention to your ambitious project. And I find it sad and appauling you have to go this way.

    Rick Ross, I think you're a greedy little man.
  12. Francis, stop being a troll[ Go to top ]

    If you must insult other people, why don't you start your own "JavaTrolls"-community together with Rolf. But stay away from TSS if you can't stay civilised.
  13. Francis, the core enhancement of JDocs over the original static html javadocs is that JDocs pages can be enhanced with user contributed notes. By linking to Sun's static pages instead of using the JDocs version we have had to eliminate that benefit from major APIs like J2SE and J2EE.

    People clearly wanted to share their knowledge about those APIs. In just the 2 days that the J2SE was online at JDocs we accumulated over 50 contributed comments from users, and their quality was excellent. Now the context for this knowledge sharing, which enhances the original docs, is no longer available.

    Most definitely there is a difference between the JDocs pages and the originals.
  14. Frames?[ Go to top ]

    Can't you do this with frames?

    -Magnus
  15. I'm sure many of us would be interested in seeing the high-quality comments made by community members against J2SE documentation. Surely these comments could be posted on a separate page at JDocs? It won't be as neat as an integrated solution, but it will offer almost all of the benefit. You could even allow comments to continue to be added, by allowing a user to indicate via a form the package/class/field/method to which the comment applied.
  16. I'm sure many of us would be interested in seeing the high-quality comments made by community members against J2SE documentation. Surely these comments could be posted on a separate page at JDocs? It won't be as neat as an integrated solution, but it will offer almost all of the benefit. You could even allow comments to continue to be added, by allowing a user to indicate via a form the package/class/field/method to which the comment applied.
    We definitely agree that these comments should be posted on the site and hope to have a nice clean solution for this soon so that the context is clear when your read them. Thanks for the reminder.
  17. implement wrapper[ Go to top ]

    Dear Rick, first of all: it's a great idea to gather and comment APIs.

    I don't know the details of your agreement with Sun, but maybe it's possible to implement a wrapper around the Sun API in jdocs: as structure info on top/left the java classes, as content API and user comments of jdocs, implemented e.g. as includes or frames. So the Sun API is unchanged, but all comments are available and linked to the javadocs.

    Best regards,
    Joerg
  18. Well there you have it ....[ Go to top ]

    By linking to Sun's static pages instead of using the JDocs version we have had to eliminate that benefit from major APIs like J2SE and J2EE. <
    How useful this is, depends on how accurate the annotation is. I can see why Sun has a problem with this.

    I'm sure you've noticed that other copies of the Sun docs littered around the 'net, don't have annotations.
  19. Own goal?[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    Do you think that Sun is just standing up for its IP? Or do they just not understand grass roots and the community?
    </quote>

    Really I have no idea. Talk about &#8220;how to loose friends and alienate people.&#8221; I normally find myself defending Sun. On the whole I think they do a pretty good job treading a very difficult line between control of Java and being pretty open with the community that supports it. I find myself baffled by this decision, though. They might be concerned about the docs being up-to-date (one version of the docs in one place is a lot easier to manage) but the Jdocs intuitive has been such an instant hit with so many Java developers and enthusiasts that I&#8217;d have thought Sun would be falling over themselves to help out and make sure that the project was a success. I&#8217;d have liked to see comments from Sun developers etc. From their point of view it costs them next to nothing and provides developers with a free MSDN like library of useful info. Perhaps someone from Sun would like to comment?
  20. Own goal?[ Go to top ]

    This is nothing new for Sun. I have seen them threaten legal action against other Java community groups. JavaRanch for one, has been called out by Sun legal on more than one occasion. The whole thing leaves me puzzled. Groups like JavaRanch and JDocs seek only to promote the use of Java. Hopefully, Sun will realize these groups are allies, instead of threats.
  21. What really happened?[ Go to top ]

    To me this whole thing is a little confusing. As far as I know Sun hasn't actually told Rick to take it down. As far as I know a Sun employee pointed out to him that doing what he was doing would violate the copyright, and that Sun would *have to* take action. Rick then acted preemptively in response to this, as if Sun had actually taken action.

    Rick said in his JL notice: "Sun has asked us to remove those APIs"
    and
    "Sun is adamant that the javadocs for Sun APIs must be accessible solely and exclusively from sun.com - nowhere else."
    I personally would be very interested in hearing exactly *who* at Sun said exactly *what* and *when* with regard to the two above comments. If Rick could clarify this that'd be great.
  22. Rickard, the demands of Sun have been stated by Onno Kluyt, Jeff Jackson and others. We saw no reason to let the ugliness get any worse, so we chose to be cooperative. We don't want to draw out controversy and argument. It will serve no purpose.

    Rick
  23. Rickard, the demands of Sun have been stated by Onno Kluyt, Jeff Jackson and others. We saw no reason to let the ugliness get any worse, so we chose to be cooperative. We don't want to draw out controversy and argument. It will serve no purpose.Rick
    Rick, could you please answer my questions? Again:
    who?
    what? (Quotes would be nice)
    when?

    So far this controversy has served your goals (=getting attention for JDocs.com), so I think it is important for us to know what the exact basis for the controversy is. If there *is* indeed foundation for it, and you have made friends with Sun again, that's great. If there is no foundation for it, then that is a different story. So please, enlighten us on what really happened.
  24. Rickard, please hear me clearly. We do not wish to fan the flames.

    If the purpose of your questions is to discern whether Sun made legal threats, then the answer is a simple "yes." I see no purpose to be served by laying out "who, what, when" in public. All that will achieve is to fuel further animosity. Sun took a position that JDocs was violating their copyright, and it is not our desire to violate anything from anybody. If we had wanted to express outrage and condemn Sun openly, then you can well imagine the format and content of our messages would not be so temperate.

    Your suggestion that all this nonsense is positive PR is not well considered. JDocs has been badly hurt. We are baffled and disappointed by the about face towards JDocs from the Java steward. Prior to the initial public announcement of the service there had been very exciting and cooperative discussions between Sun and Javalobby.

    Our honest hope is that this new JDocs service will be a positive force for knowledge sharing within the community, not something that divides groups who have every reason to work together where their interests converge. Only in the Java world could such a ridiculous debacle have ensued, much to our dismay.

    Rick
  25. You already said "who" above: "Onno Kluyt, Jeff Jackson and others". I really don't see how the "what and when" will fan any more flames <g>.
  26. Rickard, please hear me clearly. We do not wish to fan the flames.If the purpose of your questions is to discern whether Sun made legal threats, then the answer is a simple "yes." I see no purpose to be served by laying out "who, what, when" in public. All that will achieve is to fuel further animosity.
    Ok, do as you wish. What you say contradicts what I've heard, but whatever then.
  27. Rick,

    It's good to see that you are approaching this issue without vitriol. Hopefully, if the flames don't go up, it will be simple for Sun to "fix" their decision without pride etc. getting in the way.

    Regardless, Sun's decision appears to be extremely poorly thought out, and I don't think we should let this issue disappear, but I agree that flames aren't going to help.

    I, like Rickard, would also like to know the details of exactly what the legal issue was and where it originated. As others have pointed out, there are lots of copies of the JDK docs all over the web .. is JDOCS.COM the only site that can't post them? Is it related to the fact that you were "J++izing" the JavaDocs by letting others "make the docs unpure"? I assume that if you felt you could answer these questions publicly, you would have done so already without us asking, so to be honest I'm not expecting an answer any time soon.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  28. Rick Ross: Stop Whining[ Go to top ]

    I really think Rick Ross should stop whining about this. It is very clear that Rick has profit motives behind his site. when he started javalobby it was to lobby his image and his interests and NOT necessarily the community. A few folks who originally started this kind of a community effort, later start using their community strengths to further their personal growth and later turn it into a profit $$$ initiative. Learn from open source and free software!! What you are doing is very similar to what is happening in the DVD industry.

    So, Rick just move on ... either you give us the real specifics and please don't do the wishy washy game like lawyers here.. I am in total agreement with Sun on this. You loose your credibility by whining this way. that is if you have any left.
  29. Philippe, which specifics are you asking for?

    We stated above with simple clarity that Onno Kluyt and Jeff Jackson from Sun conveyed the company's position that JDocs was in violation of their copyright and demanded that we stop serving Sun API docs from the site. We decided to cooperate with their request and redirected requests for Sun API info to pages at Sun's site, which they had stated would be acceptable to them.

    That seems pretty succinct and specific to me. End of story.

    Rick
  30. Rick Ross: Stop Whining[ Go to top ]

    Philippe,
    It is very clear that Rick has profit motives behind his site. when he started javalobby it was to lobby his image and his interests and NOT necessarily the community. A few folks who originally started this kind of a community effort, later start using their community strengths to further their personal growth and later turn it into a profit $$$ initiative. Learn from open source and free software!!
    There are so many fallacies and untruths in your post that it's hard to decide where to start.

    Rick has, since day one, been a rabid and vociferous supporter of the concept of community and involvement and positive lobbying in the Java space. Any nitwit can see that. You might think that he's crazy or misguided, but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that he isn't interested in furthering the adoption and success of Java.

    Secondly, you are posting on a profitable community site. 'nuf said.

    Third, this incessant whining about profitability has got to stop. Since when is profit an evil? Can you name one bad thing about profit? (If you stop for a moment to use that portion of your brain associated with "reason," you will realize that profit is itself an objective measurement of revenue against cost, and thus cannot in and of itself attain moral attributes of good and evil.) I don't wish to drill this tediously obvious point too far into the ground, but if it were not for profit, none of us would be getting a paycheck.

    The last part of your comment, referring to the pure motives of open source as compared to the "$$$" profit motive, is completely laughable. Maybe you missed the Spring announcement? Maybe you never heard of JBoss? CDN? Protique? Lots of developers working on open source software are trying to make a living from their work. Oh, and profit too.

    If you want to disagree with Rick on his public statements and the positions he takes, go right ahead. Please cut out the nonsense, though.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  31. Rick Ross: Stop Whining[ Go to top ]

    'nuf said.Third, this incessant whining about profitability has got to stop. Since when is profit an evil? Can you name one bad thing about profit?
    There is a difference between "making profit" and "making profit disguised as community welfare and non-profit".
  32. Rick Ross and his whining[ Go to top ]

    Cameron: with all due respects. I don't think you have a clue of what you are talking about.

    Lokesh: you got it! "There is a difference between "making profit" and "making profit disguised as community welfare and non-profit"

    >Cameron write: "You might think that he's crazy or misguided, but you'll have >a hard time convincing anyone that he isn't interested in furthering the >adoption and success of Java" I think we all should speak for ourselves.

    There are quite a few who might agree and disagree with your statement. You can speak on behalf of yourself and not everyone.

    >Third, this incessant whining about profitability has got to stop.
    I think the world can learn a bit from Richard Stallman. Money is not everything in life. Or learn from the folks who started http://www.gorilla-haven.org

    >(If you stop for a moment to use that portion of your brain associated
    > with "reason," you will realize that profit is itself an objective
    > measurement of revenue against cost, and thus cannot in and of itself attain
    >moral attributes of good and evil.)

    It depends on how you look at this. Let us just agree to disagree on this topic and move on...and put an end to this thread.

    flames -> /dev/null
  33. Rick Ross and his whining[ Go to top ]

    Third, this incessant whining about profitability has got to stop.
    I think the world can learn a bit from Richard Stallman. Money is not everything in life.
    Richard Stallman does not have a monopoly on the attitude that "money is not everything in life." If you get nothing else from what I'm saying, please understand this: The love of money is in no way related to the necessity of profit.

    Profitability is simply a fiscal necessity for people to eat. For example, when we (Tangosol) achieved profitability, we were able to hire more employees and pay them salaries. Without profitability, we cannot hire. Without hiring, people don't get paid. Without pay, people either grow enough food for themselves and their entire family, or they starve to death. Businesses have to be able to profit, or most of the world will starve to death -- it really is that simple. The concept of "profit" is as fundamental a building block for our society as "language" is.

    Take that in comparison to the concept of the love of money (as in, "the love of money is the root of all evil.") One can be a greedy bastage whether or not one is profitable. Further, we often associate profits with greed because we are forced to repeatedly witness profiteering and modern "corporate excesses" (e.g. CEOs giving themselves tens of millions of dollars in bonuses while simultaneously laying off thousands of workers.) These are the types of things that should make our blood boil, not "profit" itself.

    The economic system that we have is incredibly powerful. It is unfortunate that abuses of that power have left such a terrible taste that we now confuse power itself with the effects of corruption. However, you as an individual have a choice to accept such obviously-irrational dogma, or to come to a rational conclusion.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  34. Re:[ Go to top ]

    The concept of "profit" is as fundamental a building block for our society as "language" is.Take that in comparison to the concept of the love of money (as in, "the love of money is the root of all evil.") One
    oh! boy. You have got it all wrong Cameron. I think you are taking my sentences out of context and mixing things in like in a bag full of potpourri. You can't mix language and profit in the same bag. Profit is a bi-product of greed and discontentment.

    Anyways you say what you want. It ain't going to change reality. When one looks at oneself in front of a mirror, the truth is always there. It is left for each individual to check their conscience and know what is right. Whom are we really to trying to decieve...We can't run away from our true form that is inside. You know yourself better. So that said I am out of this thread and won't be replying to anymore of these posts. Cameron, you should not be calling my posts nonsense etc... If you can't make sense of what I talk either refer to a dictionary or better yet, don't say something that makes you look hollow.
  35. Profit == progress[ Go to top ]

    There is nothing wrong with profit. In fact, there would no progress in this world whatsoever without the motivation of profit. I acknowledge that monetary profit is only one (most common) kind of profit, however.

    As a consumer, dealing with a company that is trying make a profit is beneficial to me. I can demand satisfaction or take my business elsewhere.

    If I deal with someone who works for his "satisfaction" or "global welfare" or to solve world hunger, all I can do is hope that he agrees with my needs and wait and pray patiently.

    I am an enthusiastic supported of free software and open source, but communism is a misguided reason for doing that.
  36. Rick Ross: Stop Whining[ Go to top ]

    There is a difference between "making profit" and "making profit disguised as community welfare and non-profit".
    That is true. So tell me, how much profit does Javalobby make? Especially since it is incorporated as a non-profit? And barely generates enough revenue to pay the bills?

    Can we please stop throwing around baseless accusations?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  37. Rick Ross: Stop Whining[ Go to top ]

    I really think Rick Ross should stop whining about this. It is very clear that Rick has profit motives behind his site. when he started javalobby it was to lobby his image and his interests and NOT necessarily the community. A few folks who originally started this kind of a community effort, later start using their community strengths to further their personal growth and later turn it into a profit $$$ initiative. Learn from open source and free software!! What you are doing is very similar to what is happening in the DVD industry. So, Rick just move on ... either you give us the real specifics and please don't do the wishy washy game like lawyers here.. I am in total agreement with Sun on this. You loose your credibility by whining this way. that is if you have any left.
    Yeah, get a real job and stop hiding behind the cause of community. I have been receiving newsletter from javalobby with 1% news, 99% ads.
  38. Rick Ross: Stop Whining[ Go to top ]

    I have been receiving newsletter from javalobby with 1% news, 99% ads.
    Yeah, the latest was with an ad^H^Hguest column from Cameron.

    Tss tss

    -- Andreas
  39. Rick Ross: Stop Whining[ Go to top ]

    the latest was with an ad^H^Hguest column from Cameron
    ROTFL .. but you have to admit that it's the first time I've written anything without mentioning Coherence ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  40. Well may be an IP issue for Sun and I don't know about it.

    But as a developer and especially if I am new comer, I would prefer to view documentation from the source than the 3rd party server. If it not available available at source that can be different issue.This way I am confident that the information is correct one, though the 3rd party servers may also provide the same. This way chances of accidently missing any information are minimal.

    The 3rd party sites may provide links to the source sites. (I don't know if Sun has any objection to this)

    I don't think it is a community or grass roots issue.

    Though JDocs.com is a great efforts but I don't think issue should be made out of this based on Sun's decision. JDocs.com may be more visible than the other sites posting the documentation which may have prompted the Sun to take some action.

    Cheers
  41. it is disheartening to see this idiotic knee-jerk reaction on sun's part. the added value of community is obvious, and potential for growth for this project is tremendous.

    instead of attracting and benefiting from community efforts, they alienate their supporters and offer nothing in return. clearly jdocs is a great idea - php.net, mysql.com and others are a living proof; to this date all sun's attempts at organizing communities were pitiful.
  42. Creative Commons[ Go to top ]

    Just as Sun has considered open source licenses for various Java-related efforts, I'd encourage them to consider a Creative Commons (creativecommons.org) license for their Javadocs.

    I think the proper license could be found to allow Sun to protect their IP and JDocs.com to republish the content (with comments enabled).
  43. Keywords in Search[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    Can anybody tell me how many search keywords are supported by jdocs? And what are they?

    From jdocs FAQ, I found these:
    what - type of the documents, i.e. class, method etc.
    class - name of the class, i.e. XMLOutputer, XMLReader etc.
    api - name of the api, i.e. jdom, struts etc.

    Thanks a lot.

    Jack
  44. Keywords in Search[ Go to top ]

    Hi,Can anybody tell me how many search keywords are supported by jdocs? And what are they?From jdocs FAQ, I found these:what - type of the documents, i.e. class, method etc.class - name of the class, i.e. XMLOutputer, XMLReader etc.api - name of the api, i.e. jdom, struts etc.Thanks a lot.Jack
    We're in the process of getting a page up that explains these. If you add &advanced=1 to the url after the first search you'll get a few more links to click, some that explain what fields are index, letting you search them.

    I do believe that you can do +package:<name>, +title:<qualified name>, +final:y|n, +native:y|n, +abstract:y|n, and maybe even something like +extends:java.awt.Panel.

    Hope that helps,
    Matt
  45. Keywords in Search[ Go to top ]

    Thanks Matt. The "advanced" parameter does the trick.

    Best Regards,
    Jack
  46. Keywords in Search[ Go to top ]

    The FAQ at jdocs says you need to register to use advanced search.
    What's the business rationale behind annoying us with registration to search???

    jan
  47. Keywords in Search[ Go to top ]

    The FAQ at jdocs says you need to register to use advanced search.What's the business rationale behind annoying us with registration to search???jan
    Sorry about that, in a first pass at that, we had thought about requiring it. The basic search is quite advanced and requires no registration. We hope to have a page up explainining to how to better use it this week.
  48. Start with undocumented API?[ Go to top ]

    Isn't it the Javadoc comments that are copyrighted?

    Can't we start with the classes, interfaces, methods etc. without any comments and then add our own comments and build our own API documentation?

    That would solve the problem.

    Or is the API also copyrighted? Did books like Java in a Nutshell, which include the API, needed permission to publish this? If they didn't have to, JDocs don't have to, either.
  49. I'm with Sun[ Go to top ]

    I like jdocs, I think it's a great idea, and there's a lot of potential there.

    Having said that, I absolutely understand and sympathise with Sun's position.

    If you think that it's Sun 'not getting it', then try and put up a copy of MSDN documentation and allowing users to modify things and add annotations, let's see how well that works out. Try the same thing with IBM documentation, BEA docs, or any other 'proprietory' docs. Sun's reaction is sensible and perfectly comprehensible. To be stunned, surprised, confused, or befuddled by it is to demonstrate a surprising ignorance about The Real World (tm).

    From Sun's perspective, someone going a google search for 'ArrayList' and getting a jdocs.com page as a result, with an ad for BEA or whoever would pollute the search space and clearly is not something to be encouraged. It's not THAT hard to understand that attitude.

    It is pathetic however to bleat about how mean Sun is and trying to troll for sympathy for jdocs and generating ill-will towards Sun (this does not apply to Rick Ross in particular, but to TSS too).
  50. I'm with Sun[ Go to top ]

    I'm with Sun too.

    Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill of this issue. :)

    Time to move on to more important stuff.

    Oh.. as for Java SUN API samples, why not http://javaalmanac.com/ ? Only lacking is comments..

    Cheers!
  51. Use the GNU Classpath version of the documentation, Sun have no copyright's over it.
    The only downside is the non-completeness of it, but that's what JDocs is all about, right?
  52. You may be exactly right, Rodrigo[ Go to top ]

    There's a lot of merit to the idea of helping GNU Classpath complete its documentation. It's something we're looking into, and even if come other positive option surfaces it may be well worthwhile to try to supply resources to Classpath.

    Rick
  53. Lame cop out in javadocs[ Go to top ]

    If SUN wouldn't do things like this:

    "A common question we get is: Why aren't the JavaTM 2 platform API specifications written as more complete developer documentation? Why don't they include full working code examples, definitions of common programming terms, conceptual overviews, metaphors, illustrations, descriptions of implementation bugs and workarounds? We have chosen to put this information in the books listed below, and restrict the specifications to "assertions" necessary for conforming implementations."

    I see. So those lame comments that don't explain anything about what a method does or what it's parameters need to be are ""assertions" necessary for conforming implementations." So reimplementing a library class requires less knowledge than using it ????
  54. You may be exactly right, Rodrigo[ Go to top ]

    + 1.
    I agree with you Rick R. on the GNU Classpath and would help out.

    There are other java's out there (GNU, GCJ, Kava, BEA JRockit, IBM "jikes", and more I am sure. Just in case the SUNW goes below $3.00, I still want my products viable).

    .V
  55. What if...[ Go to top ]

    Has anyone considered what would happen if Sun did not stand up for its copyright ownership? If Sun does not do it in one instance, that seems like an invitation for others to start doing the same. And those others are most likely not about either grass roots or community...

    To sum up this entire non-event, Rick got himself into a position where Sun *had* to tell him that "dude, you can't do that", and then he whines about it in order to get attention for jdocs.com in order to manufacture support for it by playing the "little guy". And then, even though nothing dramatic has happened, really, he makes it appear as though even this Big Evil Corp, that he is supposedly a "lobbyist" *for*, is putting pressure on him he is willing to make peace and work towards providing this great service to the Java community. Just because he's such a nice guy.

    Brilliant.
  56. Simple, really[ Go to top ]

    Sun forbidding the inclusion of the base APIs is annoying, but perfectly understandable. Each time a programmer goes to check Java API using Sun's pages there's a mental connection to Sun. That's one small act of marketing. Start to diminish that by ecouraging other sites that "steal" your audience would be foolish. As simple as that.

    To the people complaining about the quality of the Javadocs; I have found Sun's Javadocs to be one of the nicest thing in Java programming! Maybe not perfect, but each time I have to do some C++ or Perl or whatever I am so annoyed "where are my damn Javadocs!". Plus, compare those to some open-source ones, such as Struts API and you see why Java should not be made open source.
  57. Nice ... TSS links to jrollers lunatic #1 ... ouch.