Apache may hire full-time, paid staff

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News: Apache may hire full-time, paid staff

  1. Apache may hire full-time, paid staff (23 messages)

    It was interesting to be at ApacheCon this year, and see how the Apache Software Foundation is growing. Until now, volenteers write the code, help with sysadmin tasks, and work on administrative tasks. However, ASF members are currently discussing the plan to hire staff. The ASF is also considering restricting the number of new projects it adds, and narrowing its focus to a few technology areas.

    If it continues to grow, would the ASF ever pay top coders to work full time in their community?

    Read more: Apache may hire full-time, paid staff

    Threaded Messages (23)

  2. As a committer[ Go to top ]

    It would be good to have some fulltime staff to take care of infrastructure related tasks. But when is Apache going to have fulltime paid developers?

    So many companies out there are using Apache software. collectively, they could easily pool together 1 million a year for a few developers. Not an army, but just a handful. I can think of so many great developers working on apache software that some of them really do deserve it.

    Most of the apache developers do a good job and contribute to 1-3 projects, but a few individuals really crank out some great software.
  3. As a committer[ Go to top ]

    Peter :
    It would be good to have some fulltime staff to take care of infrastructure related tasks. But when is Apache going to have fulltime paid developers?

    Probably never. Remember, the ASF is a non-profit corporation dedicated to providing the infrastructure and support so open source, community-driven projects can work and thrive. The ASF has no top-down management of technology. Rather, it's bottom up - leaving the decisions and direction of the projects to the people participating in the projects themselves.

    The discussions at ApacheCon were about how the Apache community wants to ensure that we can keep scalaing and operating efficiently. The ASF is a volunteer organization, from the heros that run the infrastructure to the organizing comittee for the ApacheCon conference to the press to the board to the....
    So many companies out there are using Apache software. collectively, they could easily pool together 1 million a year for a few developers. Not an army, but just a handful. I can think of so many great developers working on apache software that some of them really do deserve it.Most of the apache developers do a good job and contribute to 1-3 projects, but a few individuals really crank out some great software.

    And there are probably a lot more people than you might imagine that are paid to work on Apache (and other open source) software. There are quite a few paid individuals working on Apache Tomcat, for example. There always have been. Apache Derby, the database in the Incubator also has quite a few paid developers. Apache Geronimo, Hivemind, Jetspeed, the various webservices also come to mind.

    This is a Good Thing, because among other things, it shows how open source software can be produced by a diverse, open community of sometimes even competing interests, and still produce good stuff that people want to use, all under a great license. ;)

    geir
  4. As a committer[ Go to top ]

    Peter :
    It would be good to have some fulltime staff to take care of infrastructure related tasks. But when is Apache going to have fulltime paid developers?
    Probably never. Remember, the ASF is a non-profit corporation dedicated to providing the infrastructure and support so open source, community-driven projects can work and thrive. The ASF has no top-down management of technology. Rather, it's bottom up - leaving the decisions and direction of the projects to the people participating in the projects themselves.The discussions at ApacheCon were about how the Apache community wants to ensure that we can keep scalaing and operating efficiently. The ASF is a volunteer organization, from the heros that run the infrastructure to the organizing comittee for the ApacheCon conference to the press to the board to the....
    So many companies out there are using Apache software. collectively, they could easily pool together 1 million a year for a few developers. Not an army, but just a handful. I can think of so many great developers working on apache software that some of them really do deserve it.Most of the apache developers do a good job and contribute to 1-3 projects, but a few individuals really crank out some great software.
    And there are probably a lot more people than you might imagine that are paid to work on Apache (and other open source) software. There are quite a few paid individuals working on Apache Tomcat, for example. There always have been. Apache Derby, the database in the Incubator also has quite a few paid developers. Apache Geronimo, Hivemind, Jetspeed, the various webservices also come to mind.This is a Good Thing, because among other things, it shows how open source software can be produced by a diverse, open community of sometimes even competing interests, and still produce good stuff that people want to use, all under a great license. ;)geir

    Yeah, I know, I wasn't serious. More of a joke than anything else. Well maybe wishful thinking. It would be nice to have more infrastructure for testing things like the new load balancing mod the tomcat guys are working on. Or a few small boxes to test the clustering in Tomcat5, so that those who don't have a cluster of servers to test patches/changes have a way of doing it.

    It would also be nice to automated functional and stress testing of various apache projects. That way, when someone asks does X scale, the developers can point to a URL. Then again, that's why there's business now focusing on providing that :)
  5. Apache may hire full-time, paid staff[ Go to top ]

    It was interesting to be at ApacheCon this year, and see how the Apache Software Foundation is growing. Until now, volenteers write the code, help with sysadmin tasks, and work on administrative tasks. However, ASF members are currently discussing the plan to hire staff. The ASF is also considering restricting the number of new projects it adds, and narrowing its focus to a few technology areas.If it continues to grow, would the ASF ever pay top coders to work full time in their community?Read more: Apache may hire full-time, paid staff

    Go proffessional open source ! :-))
  6. Go proffessional open source ! :-))

    Apache benefited from the tremendeous traction that a "killer app" brought. The killer app was the Apache server -- not because it was an HTTP server, which was nothing new, but because it was a whole new concept of enabling anybody to post on the web, at no cost, and even to tinker with the underlying technology. Freedom of speech, if you prefer.

    But then after, growth is something that has to be managed.

    Recent addition of projects (eg, projects such as Beehive and other Java projects) don't follow the same logic or rationale.

    This is something we know pretty well at ObjectWeb -- because the consortium was designed from the begining to enable sustainable development of open-source software, by involving companies, backing projects by professional teams, and appointing full time staff to manage infrastructure (eg web servers, forge, etc) and run the consortium.

    Being focused and backed by professional staff is what will ensure the success of new generation of open-source organizations: eg Eclipse, OSDL, ObjetcWeb, MMBase, etc. This is good that Apache realize the same now.

    It may avoid overlaps between ASF projects and other projects from other FLOSS communities -- as Brian says, "We don't have to constantly reinvent the wheel just to be different, a trap that software projects frequently fall into" (see http://www.objectweb.org/phorum/read.php?f=25&i=49&t=49)

    the specific emphasis on legal matters would be good -- and the first thing I can think of is the question of licensing. At ApacheCon, we hosted a very interesting BOF with Geir Magnusson and the Geronimo folks about cooperation between ObjectWeb/JOnAS and Apache/geronimo, and beyond. It rapidly turned out that ASF's position wrt licenses may actually make between FLOSS communities harder in the long run. Another subject matter is the differences between local regulations of different countries. Yet another may be software patents (see our whitepaper: http://wiki.objectweb.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CWP_SoftwarePatents), as it's be interesting to share viewpoints between various communities.

    One thing is sure: we, ObjectWeb, are looking forward to even closer collaboration with Apache after such evolution!
  7. Oh-oh -- I forgot to add:

    For those who are interested in professional open-source and its collaborative development, Brian Behlendorf will deliver a keynote at ObjectWebCon '05 (http://wiki.objectweb.org/ObjectWebCon05/Wiki.jsp?page=KeynoteSpeakers) next January -- with other folks from other communities, eg Eclipse, JCP.

    A great opportunity for those who are in Europe or who would like to come over to spend a long ski week-end in the Alps :)
  8. yeah, I wish[ Go to top ]

    I'm poor, so not very likely. Heck i couldn't even go to ApacheCon let alone ObjectWebCon. I noticed this year's ApacheCon was mostly Apache httpd stuff and jakarta and other projects weren't represented very well. Hopefully next year the other projects will make more of a showing.
  9. Go proffessional open source ! :-))
    consortium was designed from the begining to enable sustainable development of open-source software, by involving companies, backing projects by professional teams, and appointing full time staff to manage ....[blah blah blah]

    I think you're missing on what professional open source actually means.

    Professional source means:
    * Writing great software.
    * Paying your open source developers. Paying them to work on the code they love. Paying them, and paying them well. The JBoss Inc. umbrella has grown over the years to fund the large majority of development on Hibernate, Tomcat, JGroups, jBPM, etc. Our developer not only have an idealistic stake in our company in the promotion of open source, but also a financial stake.
    * Creating a consortium of industry partners. Many of our partners like Iona, Unisys, HP, Computer Associates contribute to JBoss Inc. open source development. But, I'm not just talking about collaborative development here. JBoss Inc. is building an ecosystem where companies can actually FINANCIALLY BENEFIT from JBoss projects. They have a concrete ROI on any development that they contribute. They market our projects, because it allows them to grow their business.
    * Just because you have great open source software, doesn't mean anybody is going to use it. They have to know about it first. This is where Professional Open Source is crucial. JBoss Inc. actually has a marketing staff and budget that spends money on JUG tours, conference talks, and advertisements. JBoss Inc. has a sales staff that sells our projects. Somebody wants JBoss? Sales also says "Hey, entity beans suck, try out Hibernate!". JONAS has been around almost as long as JBoss. Why doesn't anybody use it? It either A) sucks or B) nobody knows it exists.
    * Finally, a HUGE part of adoption of open source is that companies that use the software needs somebody to get on the phone when something goes wrong. They need professional services like training, consulting, and most importantly, 24x7 support.

    Professional Open Source is about facilitating all the above points and growing the model, infrastructure, and organization to enable all of the above in a cookie cutter fashion. We have applied this coookie cutter to Hibernate, JGroups, and now jBPM.

    To create mass adoption of an open source project, great software is not enough. You have to promote your project. Companies have to be able to make money as well as save money from open source. Developers have to have a life. And finally, if nobody nows about your project, nobody will use it.

    Bill

    P.S. If you want to see what Professional Open Source REALLY means, attend JBossWorld March 1-2. We've got the lead developers from all our projects speaking as well as papers from various USERS of our projects to show how people fare with open source.





    infrastructure (eg web servers, forge, etc) and run the consortium.Being focused and backed by professional staff is what will ensure the success of new generation of open-source organizations: eg Eclipse, OSDL, ObjetcWeb, MMBase, etc. This is good that Apache realize the same now.It may avoid overlaps between ASF projects and other projects from other FLOSS communities -- as Brian says, "We don't have to constantly reinvent the wheel just to be different, a trap that software projects frequently fall into" (see http://www.objectweb.org/phorum/read.php?f=25&i=49&t=49)the specific emphasis on legal matters would be good -- and the first thing I can think of is the question of licensing. At ApacheCon, we hosted a very interesting BOF with Geir Magnusson and the Geronimo folks about cooperation between ObjectWeb/JOnAS and Apache/geronimo, and beyond. It rapidly turned out that ASF's position wrt licenses may actually make between FLOSS communities harder in the long run. Another subject matter is the differences between local regulations of different countries. Yet another may be software patents (see our whitepaper: http://wiki.objectweb.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CWP_SoftwarePatents), as it's be interesting to share viewpoints between various communities.One thing is sure: we, ObjectWeb, are looking forward to even closer collaboration with Apache after such evolution!
  10. I think you're missing on what professional open source actually means.

    So there is only one truth, yours, one model is viable the JBoss one...one monopolistic company ruling the Open Source world, will the next M$ becomes the JB$?

    This type of speech which denotes fears of seeing a strong Open Source consortium competitor -funded by industry giants - is quite funny.

    Look at this sentence...should remind yous something

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." (Mahatma Ghandi)

    There is no one model, no solution that fits all even in the Open Source world, Bill...and you know I like you ;)

    Benjamin
  11. I don't think there is one model and one way to do things.
    Paying your open source developers.
    Even if Objectweb pays some open source developers and others from the staff, it's not objectweb's goal.
    We are a company participating to Objectweb and JOnAS ( http://www.scub.net ), we are, thanks to JOnAS and Objectweb, living thanks to Open Source.
    The difference betweeb Objectweb and JBoss is for me :
    - JBoss is the company allowing peoples inside to make money thanks to JBoss
    - JOnAS is an organisation allowing peoples working on project to manage to make money but you don't have to be working inside Objectweb. Each member can just do what he likes to make money ( or not )

    It's just a different point of view :) we both have our way to see things and we are both professional Open Source.

    We provide training, consulting and support as others does... but we are all participating as we want it in the consortium.

    And JOnAS is used, trust me or i won't eat everyday !

    Stéphane
  12. Bill you're such a pathetic excuse. Further ranting is futile.
  13. OK. Let's address one point after another...
    I think you're missing on what professional open source actually means.Professional source means:* Writing great software.

    Writing great software...
    Let's see:
    - JOnAS, first nonprofit J2EE 1.4 appserv to receive the scholarship from the JCP for certification
    - eXo, first JSR168 certified portal server (am I right, Benjamin) ?
    - JOTM: transaction manager selected by Geronimo folks for its quality
    - ASM: bytecode manipulation framework, selected by Geronimo too due to its efficiency
    - C-JDBC: winner of Derby contest at ApacheCon ; finalist of LinuxWorld awards at SF this summer
    - Byline: one of the best open-source CMS around

    * Paying your open source developers.

    Hmmm. ObjectWeb counts 37+ corporate members staffing more than 300.000 people worldwide. I'd say that 95% of the full time developers are paid for what they do. Other are volunteer contributors.
    * Creating a consortium of industry partners.

    You got it: a consortium. ObjectWeb is a consortium. That's it!
    * Just because you have great open source software, doesn't mean anybody is going to use it.

    Do you mean ObjectWeb should hire bloggers who would post praiseworthy comments on OW software and bash all other projects ?
    JONAS has been around almost as long as JBoss. Why doesn't anybody use it? It either A) sucks or B) nobody knows it exists.

    The answer is C/ neither of the above. JBoss is a brand. JOnAS is an appserv. People who deploy JOnAS so far didn't care much about publicity. ObjectWeb did not organize a big PR campaign (should I say "hype" campaign), because the founders of the consortium were thinking of collaborative development, as opposed to milking the open-source cow right away.
    * Finally, a HUGE part of adoption of open source is that companies that use the software needs somebody to get on the phone when something goes wrong.

    Sure. This is what companies providing support do (you may check http://solutions.objectweb.org/vendors.html for a partial list). When an integrator deploys JOnAS, the integrator provides support.
  14. Do you mean ObjectWeb should hire bloggers who would post praiseworthy comments on OW software and bash all other projects ?

    That line is destined to become a classic ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  15. Isn't that standard mode of operation?[ Go to top ]

    Not to be too synical, but humans are emotional creatures and proned to rants :) If we were all logical, it wouldn't be as much fun. Without the freedom to make a total fool of ourselves, we'd probably wouldn't grow.
  16. P.S. If you want to see what Professional Open Source REALLY means, attend JBossWorld March 1-2.

    Personally, at these dates, I would recommend EclipseCon - Feb 28 - Mar 3, Burlingame, CA, USA
  17. I believe the ASF should look at doing some of the things that the ObjectWeb Consortium is doing. Having organizations as paid members of the Foundation will allow ASF to utilize these funds for needs such as those Brian was discussing. At SourceBeat, we give back a portion of our proceeds to the open source projects we write on. In working with Francois on the JOnAS title, we realized the best way to do this was to become a member of the ObjectWeb Consortium. We would love to do the same for the ASF, and I am sure there are many other software and services organizations that would like to be a contributing member of ASF as well.
  18. I believe the ASF should look at doing some of the things that the ObjectWeb Consortium is doing. Having organizations as paid members of the Foundation will allow ASF to utilize these funds for needs such as those Brian was discussing.

    We only have humans as members, not companies or other entities. Membership is based on peer recognition of contribution to the community.

    However, we're always happy to accept contributions. We're a 501(c)3 and all of our operating expenses (colo, mainly) come from contributions and volunteer work.
    At SourceBeat, we give back a portion of our proceeds to the open source projects we write on. In working with Francois on the JOnAS title, we realized the best way to do this was to become a member of the ObjectWeb Consortium. We would love to do the same for the ASF, and I am sure there are many other software and services organizations that would like to be a contributing member of ASF as well.

    http://www.apache.org/

    or write me directly to discuss. Seriously. :)

    - geir

    (geirm at apache dot org)
  19. Geir for ASF $?[ Go to top ]

    There has to be other people at ASF that one can talk to other than Geir about money and paying.
    http://apache.org/foundation

    I wonder if Gluecode also needs help from Geir and with what.

    .V
  20. Geir for ASF $?[ Go to top ]

    There has to be other people at ASF that one can talk to other than Geir about money and paying. http://apache.org/foundationI wonder if Gluecode also needs help from Geir and with what..V

    If you are interested in contributing, go to

    http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html

    and choose whatever is best for you.

    geir

    (at Gluecode, I work on product development, management and strategy.... They still let me program too :)
  21. NObody has heard of JOnAS?[ Go to top ]

    Apparently RedHat is nobody...
    http://www.redhat.com/about/presscenter/2004/press_apps_server.html
  22. At ApacheCon, we hosted a very interesting BOF with Geir Magnusson and the Geronimo folks about cooperation between ObjectWeb/JOnAS and Apache/geronimo, and beyond. It rapidly turned out that ASF's position wrt licenses may actually make between FLOSS communities harder in the long run.

    Actually, we are working as hard as we can to resolve this issue both to ensure that we can continue our successful collaboration with you as well as with other communities. We would like to see the problem go away, because there's lots of great software out there under the LGPL.

    As an example of the sort of clarification that a project can provide that makes the intent of the authors clear and relatively unambiguous, take a look at the statement from the Hibernate folks, found here :

    http://www.hibernate.org/196.html

    This is a Really Good Thing, and... stay tuned :)
    Another subject matter is the differences between local regulations of different countries.

    This is an interesting issue too - we are trying to quantify out the material differences between interpreting the LGPL under US Law, and under French or EU law, for example.

    - geir
  23. Apache may hire full-time, paid staff[ Go to top ]

    Not to get into this thread too much - but if you are an open source developer, JBoss is hiring full-time, paid staff (and developers!) now. http://www.jboss.com/careers and the Forum (uses our JBoss Portal product by the way) http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewforum&f=198.

    Bob Bickel
    JBoss

    P.S. Sorry for the ad - but I figured the topic was employment and some might be interested in actually finding a cool job.
  24. Apache may hire full-time, paid staff[ Go to top ]

    Frankly, I think Apache could find a way to employ developers. They could simply use the RedHat/JBoss model. By having a somewhat separate organization that provides service and support of Apache projects they would also be able to fund the infrastructure needs of the Apache project.