Discussions

News: Sun Launches Java Studio Developer 7

  1. Sun Launches Java Studio Developer 7 (38 messages)

    This is becoming a pretty impressive looking package – good UML support, good looking IDE with "Code Folding" (like VS.NET), Task Reminders with Custom Tag capabilities, Good Refactoring capability and nice looking collaboration tools. Plus Junit support, code profiling capability and built in volume/stress testing tools.

    I'd be interested to know both how many Java developers would be interested in this as an alternative to their current tool of choice (assuming it to be Eclipse/IDEA or something similar).

    I was also interested in how much this looks like the current and forthcoming releases of MS Visual Studio. Are there any Microsoft developers out there who have given Java Studio a go and, if so, how did you find it?

    Home page: http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jsenterprise/

    Java Studio Developer 7 Overview

    Java Studio Developer 7 Upgrade Information

    Threaded Messages (38)

  2. Sun Launches Java Studio Developer 7[ Go to top ]

    This is becoming a pretty impressive looking package – good UML support, good looking IDE with "Code Folding" (like VS.NET),

    As does every other Java IDE today.

    code profiling capability and built in volume/stress testing tools.

    I am interested in the volume/stress testing tools can someone elaborate on this?
    I'd be interested to know both how many Java developers would be interested in this as an alternative to their current tool of choice (assuming it to be Eclipse/IDEA or something similar).
    I am sure its much less simply given that it costs $1,895. (not to criticise its features, but how can it truly compete when the market has two quality products that are inexpensive or free)

    I'd like to hear about the features that it may have that are not in Intellij or Eclipse, because those are the features you will get sales on, not the ones that do exist.

    -jp
  3. Sun Launches Java Studio Developer 7[ Go to top ]

    I am sure its much less simply given that it costs $1,895. (not to criticise its features, but how can it truly compete when the market has two quality products that are inexpensive or free)I'd like to hear about the features that it may have that are not in Intellij or Eclipse, because those are the features you will get sales on, not the ones that do exist.-jp

    The bidirectional model support is appealing to me (if it is well implemented), but according to the feature list the refactoring support is really weak. And after using IDEA for two years, giving up automated refactoring is harder than giving up crack.

    As unfair as it is, I also have a real bad taste in my mouth from past Sun product efforts, which makes me even less motivated to try it.

    Not that they care, at their price point they are targeting big corporate licenses, not folks like me.
  4. Sun Launches Java Studio Developer 7[ Go to top ]

    $1,895. I also have a real bad taste in my mouth from past Sun product efforts, which makes me even less motivated to try it.Not that they care, at their price point they are targeting big corporate licenses, not folks like me.

    I am with you. With such a price tag I am not even going for a trial.
  5. Hear, hear![ Go to top ]

    $1,895. I also have a real bad taste in my mouth from past Sun product efforts, which makes me even less motivated to try it.Not that they care, at their price point they are targeting big corporate licenses, not folks like me.
    I am with you. With such a price tag I am not even going for a trial.

    Unfortunately, they don't understand what Microsoft has known for twenty years... it's about winning the war for developer's hearts and minds. You need to get them involved early and cheaply and move them up to moderately expensive tools later, and charge for corporate service contracts that included maintenance. Instead, they are trying to follow IBM and Rational Rose which is too expensive to have everyone using. I suppose it's easier to support one developer at 2k a pop than 30 developers at $500.00 a seat. I too, must sadly opt out of the trial. I won't use Rational Rose for the same reason... IntelliJ IDEA and Visual Paradigm are very nice for the price. I don't need someone charging me a premium for climbing their learning curve... go talk to TogetherJ.
  6. Studio Ent. pricing[ Go to top ]

    Sam,

    as I posted already, Studio Enterprise is also available via a subscription based, 5 USD/employee/year pricing. (with a minimum of 1ooo employees)
    so in case you have a small company with 50 J2EE developer gurus, you only have to pay 5000 USD/year and all of your developers can use Studio Enterprise.
    5000 USD/ year for 50 developers? is that so bad? I guess its a killer price
    whats more, if your company grows to 200 developers, you still need to pay 5000 USD/year for Studio Enterprise.
    Peter
    (Sun employee)
  7. pricing[ Go to top ]

    Studio Ent. is also avaliable under a per user license which might be better in some situations.
    it costs 5 USD/employee/year with a 1ooo employee minimum.
    so in case your developer company has 98 employees, for 5ooo USD everybody can use Studio.
  8. pricing[ Go to top ]

    I think this can be a very attractive offer for some large organizations. For example, our company has ~1,500 staffs with ~30 Java developers. With this licensing scheme, all we need to pay is 7,500 USD per year, then everyone can use the Studio. This cost is only enough to buy ~2 licenses for JBuilder Enterprise Edition.
  9. pricing[ Go to top ]

    you got it!
    Peter
    (who works for Sun)
  10. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    For home users - Eclipse with free plugins.
    For corporate developers - Eclipse with IBM plugins.
    For normal users - Eclipse workplace.

    It means Eclipse everywhere. I'm specially happy about workplace edition which is stable platform for rich client deployment. I hope IBM will push it everywhere.

    Sun decided to stick with NetBeans. Market will decide about Sun.
  11. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    For home users - Eclipse with free plugins.For corporate developers - Eclipse with IBM plugins.For normal users - Eclipse workplace.It means Eclipse everywhere. I'm specially happy about workplace edition which is stable platform for rich client deployment. I hope IBM will push it everywhere.Sun decided to stick with NetBeans. Market will decide about Sun.

    NetBeans is ahead of Eclipse in some respects, at least for a while. For me, the key advantage is full Java 1.5 support right now (not the half-finished support in Eclipse). There is also very good ant project support, and seamless JSP/Servlet support as shipped (no need for plugins of variable quality). The latest NetBeans now has (at last) reasonable refactoring and class usage tools - not quite as good as Eclipse, but not bad.

    Netbeans 4 is a seriously better IDE than 3.5/3.6.
  12. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    For home users - Eclipse with free plugins.For corporate developers - Eclipse with IBM plugins.For normal users - Eclipse workplace.It means Eclipse everywhere. I'm specially happy about workplace edition which is stable platform for rich client deployment. I hope IBM will push it everywhere.Sun decided to stick with NetBeans. Market will decide about Sun.
    NetBeans is ahead of Eclipse in some respects, at least for a while. For me, the key advantage is full Java 1.5 support right now (not the half-finished support in Eclipse). There is also very good ant project support, and seamless JSP/Servlet support as shipped (no need for plugins of variable quality). The latest NetBeans now has (at last) reasonable refactoring and class usage tools - not quite as good as Eclipse, but not bad.Netbeans 4 is a seriously better IDE than 3.5/3.6.

    I think that eclipse's half is more than sun's full - it is only words
  13. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    NetBeans is ahead of Eclipse in some respects, at least for a while. For me, the key advantage is full Java 1.5 support right now (not the half-finished support in Eclipse).I think that eclipse's half is more than sun's full - it is only words
    Not if you are trying to develop serious apps with generics, boxing/unboxing and Annotations, and other new features. Eclipse's half-support for Java 1.5 is definitely NOT more than Sun's full support! Its not 'only words' - it's a real hindrance.
  14. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    Not if you are trying to develop serious apps with generics, boxing/unboxing and Annotations, and other new features. Eclipse's half-support for Java 1.5 is definitely NOT more than Sun's full support! Its not 'only words' - it's a real hindrance.

    currently eclipse (pre 3.0 m4) have boxing and annotations
    3.0 m4 will be released for a few days
  15. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    currently eclipse (pre 3.0 m4) have boxing and annotations3.0 m4 will be released for a few days
    Netbeans have full
    Tiger support. Why don't you give it a try? It also has a profiler which currently only profiles 1.4 code. Can't wait for it to release 1.5 support.
  16. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    Netbeans have full Tiger support. Why don't you give it a try? It also has a profiler which currently only profiles 1.4 code. Can't wait for it to release 1.5 support.

    I try netbeans first (have last netbeans cvs now, too), but eclipse have much better features (for me).I like one thing on netbeans : locale property editor is cool, xml family editors are better (yet), but for java ...
  17. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    Try netbeans4.0 .It's really fantastic , As for as i know it has all the features i have seen in eclipse2.1 and eclipse3.0 .I have used plugins like MyEclipse ,Lomboz in eclipse2.1 and eclipse3.0 but netbeans4.0 has got all the features which are present in these plugins. So just try netbeans4.0 you will see the real difference.
    The only problem i see in netbeans4.0 compared to eclipse is that netbeans is slightly heavy weight and i haven't seen any option for plugins as compared to eclipse.
    If SUN makes its netbeans IDE as light weight as eclipse then nothing like that.
  18. Netbeans and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    I loved Netbeans until I was forced by the project to work with Eclipse two years ago. Eclipse gave me what I had ever missed in Java community, namely "productivity". My love for NetBeans is still there, and thus I try various versions of NetBeans from time to time. I tried release 4.1 early access, but was disappointed with respect to developer-productivity. Many of the features Eclipse offered two years ago are still missing in NetBeans. Just to mention a few examples, the problem window, incremental compile and problem finding (so you do not need to run full compile), the choice of using different editors to edit various files,...

    I might be wrong about the lack of productivity in NetBeans, and if so please give me guidance.

    I believe in competition even within the open source community. As it goes to NetBeans, it is a good product, but kind of out-dated and old fashioned as it comes to really understand the need of the developer. I remember well when Microsoft offered wizards in Visual Studio. It gave me some jump. But then Visual Studio (at that time) stopped there. Having used the wizard once or twice, you realize that next time, you can do it by hand more effectively. But what a developer needs is to early get feedback about problems, failures, mistakes in the code. In that respect, I believe Eclipse is doing a far better job. So back to NetBeans, if it is going to do a better job, it should consentrate on the developer productivity and simplify the development process.

    NetBeans guys should make it "very easy" and attractive for third parties to write plugins for NetBeans. By doing so, support for things like EJB and JSP could be handed over to third parties to develope. Personally, I have read the entire NetBeans book, have digged into the source code of NetBeans, have read all the plugin samples. But I still find it very difficult to write a plugin for NetBeans.

    Those were just some thoughts.
  19. Netbeans and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    Great i agree with you .
  20. Netbeans and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    I might be wrong about the lack of productivity in NetBeans, and if so please give me guidance.

    Actually, I agree with you about some of the productivity benefits of Eclipse, although I found the errors window to be a real nuisance, as I could not find a way to easily customise what was shown - it was like a constant nag at me when all I had was minor warnings!

    incremental compile and problem finding (so you do not need to run full compile),

    I feel that these days, things are so quick I just rebuild entire projects in a few seconds in NetBeans (I do like the incremental way that Eclipse works though).

    But what a developer needs is to early get feedback about problems, failures, mistakes in the code. In that respect, I believe Eclipse is doing a far better job. So back to NetBeans, if it is going to do a better job, it should consentrate on the developer productivity and simplify the development process.

    Have you looked at Netbeans 4 in depth - I find there is an enormous amount of feedback - problems are highlighted and fixable as I type (at last Netbeans has an automatic import handler).

    I do like Eclipse in many ways, and would like to use it because of the productivity features you mention, but I have always found it lacking in areas that are important to me. The most puzzling lack was any GUI designer for SWT. Eclipse was supposed to be a flagship application for this new GUI API, so why on Earth did IBM not include a tool for developers to design SWT forms? I find this utterly baffling. I often write client-side apps, so a Swing GUI designer would have been nice (this is, of course, provided as standard in NetBeans), but there would have been politics there.. Another thing is that huge numbers of Java developers use the JSP/Servlet API and other non-EJB features of J2EE. Why couldn't tools for developing with these APIs have been provided built-in? NetBeans had been doing this for a long while before Eclipse appeared. Finally, Java 1.5 support. Why isn't this ready? the specs and beta for Java 1.5 have been around for a very long time, and I simply won't accept an IDE that won't allow me to use the important new features of this latest Java release.

    I have also had real problems installing Eclipse on some Linux distributions in the past. Getting obscure library error messages does not make me confident about using an IDE.

    In short, my impression that what Eclipse does, it does well, but it leaves out a lot of what I would expect from a quality IDE. I realise I could get plugins, but installing these can be fiddly, and some plugins are very sensitive to the versions of Eclipse.
  21. Netbeans and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    First of all, I agree with you that I have to spend more time with NetBeans 4 in order to make a "qualified" statement.

    Problems windows specially in Eclipse 3.1 has few customization features. Earlier at WSAD, I found it very annoying. But when I seriously started using it (100 Java developers), with our templates ++++, it was just something we would not like to miss. I have to check in depth how good NetBeans does the same kind of things.

    GUI builders: NetBeans has a built-in builder from day one which is very good. IBM donated their builder from Visual Age and later on WSAD to Eclipse. You just need to install the plugin.

    As it goes for J2EE (JSP/Servlet/EJB): Forte tried to support it, but it was simply awful. WSAD has supported it pretty well. There are some commercial distributions of Eclipse that after what I hear do a good job. NetBeans 4 seems to provide the same features. Although it would be nice that such features are standard part of an IDE, I do not think it is a must. If the IDE has a good plugin infrastructure, third-parties can compete on providing the best plugin.

    Java 1.5: I am daily running Eclipse 3.1 early access release. I am not sure how much it supports 1.5, but I am happy with its support for Generics. Of course, it could have been better. If NetBeans fully supports 1.5, it is then great.

    Last comment about plugins: in an ideal world, an IDE would have all the necessary plugins fully tested and installed. Unfortunately, the world is not ideal. When there are problems, there are also opportunities. Do not you think so?

    Most of the IDE discussions are about what versions, support for this new XYZ technology, that WTZ specification etc. However, when you work in Java projects, and specially large projects, you soon realize that any IDE comes short after few days. Very often, the development team creates a system that in one way or another automizes the processes. E.g. many J2EE projects use rather XDoclet, or many Swing projects never use a GUI builder because they need some instrument that can help them control over the source code and results of hundreds and thousands of classes and forms. I am not saying that IDE's should not support such things, but I am suggesting that IDE's focus on things that are really important for the success of a project. For example, what if IDE's really helped you know from the day one about the memory leaks, bad SQL/JDBC statements, code that is not scalable, code that cannot be clustered, wrong use of threads or unsafe code, security holes,.....? Regardless of whether you are coding a Swing application or developing a J2EE application, the customer needs a stable, scalable and secure code. And customers want these from the day one. Customers do not care whether you are using EJB 78.23. release 96M?

    Peace
  22. Netbeans and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    An interesting and well-argued post!
    Although it would be nice that such features are standard part of an IDE, I do not think it is a must. If the IDE has a good plugin infrastructure, third-parties can compete on providing the best plugin.

    I see what you mean, but I think there could be problems here. For example, there is no standard way of marking up code or storing additional information about GUIs: a JForm developed using one GUI designer is likely to be incompatible with another. With a built-in GUI designer things become far easier: I can pass my GUI code to anyone running NetBeans - I don't have to ask which plug-in they are using.
  23. Netbeans and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    so why on Earth did IBM not include a tool for developers to design SWT forms? I find this utterly baffling. I often write client-side apps, so a Swing GUI designer would have been nice (this is, of course, provided as standard in NetBeans)?

    Ans:

    Try jigloo plugin with eclipse for swing and swt , it looks great .there are some samples provided for swt , its easy to work with the swt designer.
  24. Netbeans and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    I tried release 4.1 early access, but was disappointed with respect to developer-productivity. Many of the features Eclipse offered two years ago are still missing in NetBeans. Just to mention a few examples, the problem window, incremental compile and problem finding (so you do not need to run full compile), the choice of using different editors to edit various files,...I might be wrong about the lack of productivity in NetBeans, and if so please give me guidance.

    NB 4.1 has incremental compiler (build system is ANT based). Also it has "on the fly" code analyzer that is not worse than that in Eclipse.
  25. Sun Launches Java Studio Developer 7[ Go to top ]

    How does this refactoring compare to JBuilder 2005's? Forgetting about the price for a moment, does anyone know the difference in functionality between JBuilder refactoring and IDEAs or IntelliJ or any of the others? I'm curious if you are getting more with JBuilder products because you are paying more and you have to decide to pay more (personal choice) or if that's all malarky and you're not getting more.
  26. sun appserver 8 not supported[ Go to top ]

    now, if they would also support the current version of their appserver (version 8), there would be a real incentive to use the IDE at least for us users of the Sun appserver. As it stands, we will stick with eclipse (and XDoclet).

    chris
  27. Too Expensive[ Go to top ]

    At that cost I'm not even going to look at it. Besides Java itself, SUN sucks at making Java products. I wonder how they got their head so for up their......
  28. Sun Launches Java Studio Developer 7[ Go to top ]

    You'll have to double the price for the hardware required to run it ;)
  29. why fight?[ Go to top ]

    based on java, why fight each other?
    just use, and find what u want.
    that's feel good.
  30. looks like solid progress[ Go to top ]

    If I could afford the darn thing I would give it a try, but at this point, I've been using eclipse for 2 years and I'm not going to change. Unless it's much much better, the cost of learning a whole new tool just takes too much time.

    though, if my next job requires I use it, then it's no big deal. There are so many eclipse plugins now, the incentive to change IDE platform just isn't worth it. then again, I would love to be proven wrong and have Sun deliver a kick butt IDE. better productivity is very desirable to me.
  31. Vi vs Emacs[ Go to top ]

    Vi is better! If you don't use Vi, you may not have a fully developed brain. <-- bait />

    We need to have IDE fights once every few months. Like the Miller beer girls. Tastes great.
    Hm.. Beeeeeerr.

    .V
  32. Vi vs Emacs[ Go to top ]

    Vi is better! If you don't use Vi, you may not have a fully developed brain. <-- bait />

    Hook, line, sinker. I use NB for doing GUI. Once the GUI is done, I drop back to vi, well, not vi actually but vim. AFAIC, its pretty productive and it even has code completion ^X^] :-)
  33. Both Vi and Emacs are "better"[ Go to top ]

    I spend most of my time in an IDE navigating and editing code. I tend to spend my time performing tasks like, delete line, change word, insert line etc.

    I find that modern IDEs although great at things like refactoring are pretty poor at basic code navigation and editing. I hate using a mouse as time away from the keyboard just slows me down. And as for CUA key-bindings I find them cumberome and inadequate for code editing.

    Is this just me or do others feel the same way? BTW does anyone know of a good vi/emacs plugin for elipse? :)
  34. Fails to scale upto expectations[ Go to top ]

    I have been working with TogetherJ and then JBuilder and the modeling tool components and the reverse engineering components are really cool.
    * JBuilder provides excellent round trip engineering. In comparison, Sun Studio 7.0 was very poor. The GUI look and feel of the modeling piece is quite trivial.
    * If you are using a Windows version of Studio, you can see that it uses a lot of CPU time, every time you click the modeling tab or any changes you make there, it hogs the CPU.
    * In addition to this, I got some random exceptions navigating the IDE.
    * Though the memory footprint seems to be comparatively lesser than JBuilder, the performance is definitely affected.
    * It is not very intuitive to work in the Studio as it is in JBuilder.
    * The UML diagrams that it generates are not always correct. I loaded the same module in JBuilder which displayed a perfect inheritance hierarchy which was not shown by Studio.

    All in all, I will stay with what I have rather than think of switching to Studio
  35. And perhaps it will be worth looking at .....

    http://swingwt.sourceforge.net

    Swing almost completely implemented in SWT. I downloaded it the other day and it blew me away.

    Now all Sun have to do is admit that they were wrong about SWT, integrate it with JRE 6 or whatever the hell they're calling it and put Java under the CPL.

    --b
  36. recompile netbeans using swingwt...[ Go to top ]

    And perhaps it will be worth looking at .....http://swingwt.sourceforge.netSwing almost completely implemented in SWT. I downloaded it the other day and it blew me away. Now all Sun have to do is admit that they were wrong about SWT, integrate it with JRE 6 or whatever the hell they're calling it and put Java under the CPL.--b

    Have you actually tried NetBeans 4 with Java 5.0? At least on the machines I have tried it on (Windows and Debian unstable Linux) - it's fast and very responsive.
  37. recompile netbeans using swingwt...[ Go to top ]

    At least on the machines I have tried it on (Windows and Debian unstable Linux) - it's fast and very responsive.

    I am not sure about Windows and all IDE versions, but I found Netbeans (with all standard pluggins) is faster and more stable on Linux than Eclipse.
  38. recompile netbeans using swingwt...[ Go to top ]

    http://swingwt.sourceforge.net
    >
    >Swing almost completely implemented in SWT. I downloaded it >the other day and it blew me away.

    Things missing from the swingwt
    * Printing support (not available in SWT/GTK2 so may be a while!)
    * Drag and drop support
    * Complete Java2D support
    * Complete StyledDocument support for text components
    * Probably more (the odd little bit here and there missing)... See the TODO list in CVS for more info.

    No Drag'n'Drop? Phew! That blew me away.
  39. I would use studio 7 enterprise just for the Web App Framework and Connector Builder. Wouldn't mind the bundled UML either, whether or not it round trips.