Developers turning to open source alternatives such as Eclipse

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News: Developers turning to open source alternatives such as Eclipse

  1. Commercial tools are sometimes restrictive and provide questionable standards support. In response, developers are increasingly turning to open source platforms like Eclipse for a more customized development experience.

    http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid26_gci1061042,00.html

    Threaded Messages (85)

  2. Who said what and why?[ Go to top ]

    From the referenced article:
    "Developers turning to open source alternatives such as Eclipse"

    Reading on it seems like the above is the opinion of the interviewed Eclipse member, and not something which is based in fact (at least no references substantiating the above is given). It would be great if you in future articles clearly separate fact from opinion, and in this case it should be stated that the above is the opinion of Mike coming out of Nitins mouth as though it was a fact.

    Fair enough?
  3. Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    I've used a bunch of different IDE's, and Eclipse actually has an EXCELLENT UI and usability... that is, once you actually start using it.

    Yes, you can call me biased, as I don't use ANY non-open source software (period)... but I've never ran into any problems doing what I'm doing on a day to day basis.

    I worked for, and am working for, companies which solely rely on Ope Source platforms, and they are VERY profitable and have brilliant engineers.

    Oh yeah... Eclipse is the sh*t !!!
  4. Open Source v/s Licensed IDE[ Go to top ]

    I use both Eclipse 3M4 and WSAD 5.1 on my workstation so I think am well equipped to talk about open source and vendor tools.

    Eclipse 3M4 has been out more recently than WSAD 5.1 and is a really nice IDE to work with it gives you a ton of functionalities such as code folding, ant support, bracket matching ,etc.. however you still feel that there is something lacking in it , there are no wizards to be build web-apps with Struts or JSF for example. Which are really what any web-devlopper would be looking for in an IDE. To get the necessary wizards , you would have to BUY plugins.

    WSAD5.1 on the contrary , which was out like ages ago although not free does have the support for building the web-apps using simple wizards, you dont have to re-invent the wheel each time.

    Eclipse like many other open source project will always require you to spend an extra amount of money to buy either plugins , documentation , training ,etc..

    So the question arises why in enterprise conditions will I risk getting into open source tool which may stop due to unsufficient budget,developer activity,complexity,etc.. when
    I can invest in a licensed tool and get all the tools and the support I need .I personnaly beleive its really risky to adopt open source projects only to find mid-way in the project development phase that its causing this or that problem.
  5. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    I'll have to check out IntelliJ. I've been using Eclipse for about 10 months now (using version 3 at the moment). It is okay, but I have 4 gripes, in order of severity.

    1. I crash it between 2 and 12 times a day. It seems clearly to be the editor that's the issue. "Save early, safe often" - not since the early 90s have I felt I had to do this with any editing software.
    2. Roughly every other day it starts typing right-to-left on me in the editor, and the only way to fix it is to restart it. Any idea what this might be?
    3. The "IntelliSense" help is way, way, way far behind what you get from Visual Studio .NET. Did I say way, way, way behind? I meant way, way, way, way, way behind. No help for constructors? No specific help describing method parameters?
    4. The auto-completion of parenthesis and quotes is a hindrance (I should probably find out how to disable it). It is more often wrong that not, and has actually introduced bugs in my code. When I try to delete one quote, it deletes two. When I try to enter two parenthesis, it seems to enter one. It simply guesses wrong at what I'm trying to do.

    Eclipse as a Java IDE is not too bad for free, but I'd pay for something better. However, I hear from most folks that it is the best Java IDE. Too bad, if true. It doesn't compare with Visual Studio .NET. (I should say that I am more a Java programmer these days than MSFT, and actually like it just fine. I have been a Visual Studio user since version 1.52c though, and they build the best IDEs).

    Dan
  6. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    I'll have to check out IntelliJ. I've been using Eclipse for about 10 months now (using version 3 at the moment). It is okay, but I have 4 gripes, in order of severity.1. I crash it between 2 and 12 times a day. It seems clearly to be the editor that's the issue. "Save early, safe often" - not since the early 90s have I felt I had to do this with any editing software.2. Roughly every other day it starts typing right-to-left on me in the editor, and the only way to fix it is to restart it. Any idea what this might be?3. The "IntelliSense" help is way, way, way far behind what you get from Visual Studio .NET. Did I say way, way, way behind? I meant way, way, way, way, way behind. No help for constructors? No specific help describing method parameters?4. The auto-completion of parenthesis and quotes is a hindrance (I should probably find out how to disable it). It is more often wrong that not, and has actually introduced bugs in my code. When I try to delete one quote, it deletes two. When I try to enter two parenthesis, it seems to enter one. It simply guesses wrong at what I'm trying to do.Eclipse as a Java IDE is not too bad for free, but I'd pay for something better. However, I hear from most folks that it is the best Java IDE. Too bad, if true. It doesn't compare with Visual Studio .NET. (I should say that I am more a Java programmer these days than MSFT, and actually like it just fine. I have been a Visual Studio user since version 1.52c though, and they build the best IDEs).Dan

    What features does VS.NET intellisense offer that Eclipse doesn't?

    I have had all the syntax highlighting vanish once or twice in Eclipse 3.0, with the odd error message or two, other than that it has been pretty stable. That said NetBeans 4.0 is pretty solid too.

    As far as the parenthesis are concerned you should turn on smart insert for semicolon and brace under the options-editor-typing tab (or close enough).
  7. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    I really don't mean to clutter the thread with an Eclipse vs MSFT comparison, so I'll try to avoid that...

    Is there a way to have Eclipse show intellisense for constructors? When I type
    [ObjectClass] inst = new
    I'd expect when I hit space to see it suggest [ObjectClass] and then let me use up/down arrows to browser the available constructors.

    Also, is there a way for Eclipse to show documentation of individual members as I make a method call, such as typing
    foo(param1, param2,
    As I enter the comma after param2, I'd expect to see a detailed description of what param3 is.

    Maybe Eclipse supports these but it is not turned on by default? I'll try looking at the preferences again.

    Regarding VS being the best IDE, I didn't mean to imply going all the way back to 1.52c. They actually didn't really start getting their act together until 6.0, and VS.NET was a major improvement. The wizards are not so big a deal (they certainly weren't much help back in the ATL/COM and MFC days). The integration of Intellisense with your own assemblies using XML documentation is quite nice now (with compiler warnings if your docs are out of date of missing), and NDoc does a very professional job with the output. Anway...

    As for the crashing, it happens all the time to me - I run a ThinkPad 42p with 1.5 Gig of memory, and it is not a low memory condition. None of my other Java applications have any stability issues. 2.0 didn't crash as much - it started with 3.0. I'll try upgrading to 3.1. I've seen one other bug report about the reverse typing issue, but it seems like it couldn't be reproduced and wasn't fixed. It is very strange.

    Dan
  8. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    When I type[ObjectClass] inst = new I'd expect when I hit space to see it suggest [ObjectClass] and then let me use up/down arrows to browser the available constructors.

    Not everything is exactly the same, but yes, you can get a list of contructors.
    Also, is there a way for Eclipse to show documentation of individual members as I make a method call, such as typing ...
    Yes. CTRL + Space. In fact it is much easier than bringing it backup in VS.Net. And you can preview the method signature + javadocs with putting your cursor over the method or the actual method code the putting your cursor over the method + CTRL. F2 will bring focus to either one so you can scroll throw the whole thing.
  9. Thanks![ Go to top ]

    Thanks! That should help out quite a bit. Didn't see that from the documentation somehow (and I wonder why it doesn't just show up by default).

    I'll confess I'm not actually sure how to bring tips back up in VS.NET if they disappear, but they seem to do a better job of staying up than Eclipse. In Eclipse if you type-ahead to further refine a term and then backspace over a typo, the tips go away. This doesn't happen in VS.NET. Now that I know that Ctrl+Space brings it back up, that's not so big a deal.
  10. Thanks![ Go to top ]

    Some additional help -
    http://eclipse-tools.sourceforge.net/shortcuts.html

    Also read through the New and Noteworthy for each release and milestone. A ton of cool stuff.

    for example - http://download.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops/S-3.1M5a-200502191500/eclipse-news-M5.html
  11. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    1. Crashed?!? For me only way how it "crashes" is, that IDE is asking if I could leave IDE when it get not enough memory.
    2. Never seen
    3. What are you speaking about. All mentioned features implemented.
    4. For me is fine, you can turn it off.

    Suggestions:
    Try new version 3.1, reinstall JDK, reintall OS, update HW.
  12. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    <blockquoteIt doesn't compare with Visual Studio .NET. (I should say that I am more a Java programmer these days than MSFT, and actually like it just fine. I have been a Visual Studio user since version 1.52c though, and they build the best IDEs).Eclipse doesn't come with wizards that VS.Net has. But for day to day programming, Eclipse is MUCH better. Much better IntelliSense, etc. Everything you describe as better in VS.Net. Try creating a new interface in VS.Net. Try adding accessors to a field. try adding "Using " without going to the top and typing it in. Try ... .
    I've been using Visual Studio and VS.Net for years. I am glad to be back to using Eclipse for the majority of my development. If you use VS.Net, you had better stay on the straight and narrow.
  13. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    1. I crash it between 2 and 12 times a day. It seems clearly to be the editor that's the issue. "Save early, safe often" - not since the early 90s have I felt I had to do this with any editing software.

    Never happened to me.
    2. Roughly every other day it starts typing right-to-left on me in the editor, and the only way to fix it is to restart it. Any idea what this might be?3.

    :)) Huh? Check Your OS configuration.
    The "IntelliSense" help is way, way, way far behind what you get from Visual Studio .NET. Did I say way, way, way behind? I meant way, way, way, way, way behind. No help for constructors? No specific help describing method parameters?

    What? Way behind? Are You joking? Tried Alt+Spc+?, linked Your project jars with javadoc? Not to mention other features like templates (customizable - for example type "for" and press "autocompletion" shortcut. But my favorite feature is autobuild+ Quick Fixes - just rocks.

    4. The auto-completion of parenthesis and quotes is a hindrance (I should probably find out how to disable it).
    [...]
    It doesn't compare with Visual Studio .NET. (I should say that I am more a Java programmer these days than MSFT, and actually like it just fine. I have been a Visual Studio user since version 1.52c though, and they build the best IDEs)
    Could not disagree more. I used to use VS since 1998. It cannot compare to Eclipse 2.0 - not to mention about 3.0 or 3.1. Guess why there is a lot o plugins improving (yes!) IntelliSense - VisualSlick, Tomato Software even JetBrains AFAIR.
  14. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    It doesn't compare with Visual Studio .NET
    <snip>
    >>and they build the best IDEs

    Are you serious?

    Visual Studio .NET is nowhere near the same league as IntelliJ or Eclipse. Not even Visual Studio .Net 2005! Its as productive as a dead goat!

    This "microsoft build the best ide's" myth is a hangover from their 1990's success - and only believed by people who have never used IntelliJ or Eclipse.

    Since IntelliJ and, more recently, Eclipse have entered what was a very crowded market, people have been talking about 2nd-generation IDE's - and Visual Studio is only just now (VS2005) making its first steps out of the 1st-generation. And they are a long way behind what ReSharper can do.

    Have you looked at any of the refactorings in Eclipse or IntelliJ? The live templates? The code naviation? These are not rarely-used, fancy features - but core features to help you write your code much faster.

    E.g I do not write:
    MyClass myclass = new MyClass();

    Instead, I write:
    new My<CTRL-ALT-SPACE><RETURN><CTRL-ALT-V><RETURN>

    and IntelliJ writes the rest - including import. I havent written an import statement for about 3 yrs now...

    Granted (IMO) Eclipse isnt as user-friendly and intuitive as IntelliJ. But its way ahead of VS.Net in functionality.

    If you are a Visual Studio user, have you looked at Resharper? Its the only thing that makes VS.NET some way bearable!.

    -Nick
  15. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    !This "microsoft build the best ide's" myth is a hangover from their 1990's success - and only believed by people who have never used IntelliJ or Eclipse.

    I don't understand how the myth of "microsoft build the best ide's" arose. I have been using Microsoft development tools for decades, and they have always been playing catch-up. This surprises me, as Bill Gates was shown some impressive tools in the 80s, including Smalltalk development environments which had features that still aren't present in most IDEs today. After being shown some of the most powerful development tools and languages ever written, Microsoft came up with Visual Basic! In the years since then, I have dealt with Microsoft IDEs that have been frustratingly limited in capability. The worst case was a recent attempt to debug some legacy VB code that actually crashed Visual Studio.

    Eclipse (I have no experience of IntelliJ) is far better (as is the new version of NetBeans).
  16. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    Ahh, Smalltalkers are always there to prove you wrong ;-)

    Sadly, I have never written a line of smalltalk in my life... so, like all the other times I have been countered with "smalltalk could do that in the 80's!" I will have to just trust you... :-)

    However, why do you think Visual Basic was so successful whereas Smalltalk was not? You think it was just down to "marketing"?
    For a certain class of application, VB was (and still is) very productive - and a very low barrier to entry.

    Microsoft have always been good at keeping the barrier to entry very low (and the barrier to exit very high).

    The main problem with a lot of OSS tools is that often the barrier to entry is quite high. You have to choose the right one first - from the 100's there are. Then you have to use the tool correctly - the experienced users dont think there is a need to document it.

    I would say that its only been very recently that the barrier to entry for OSS has come so low - that there has been such a great deal of attention to detail and to documentation and for their users. Often, the developers for OSS have had little sympathy for their users. "Its free after all - what more do they want? Damn hippies!"

    -Nick

    PS: Give IntelliJ a go. Its a pleasure.
  17. VB?[ Go to top ]

    Just to clarify, since I started this, I have to say that I detest VB (doesn't matter which flavor).
  18. I am not sure about SmallTalk like many around.
    But have some thing to say about VB and VS
    >>>
    For a certain class of application, VB was (and still is) very productive - and a very low barrier to entry.
    >>>

    I read some where, (I think on TSS.Net) (very aptly said) "Visual Studio with VB was like a shot gun in the hands of a five year old" (I had that impression always about most VB developers i came across, but could not have said it better ;-) )

    Productivity is not about being able to drag drop widgets and using break points to get things working. It is about being able to use tools like Unit Testers, support for refactoring, ability to use code generation tools (VS and VS.Net definitely score better here), support for deployment and building. Eclipse does a pretty good job at most of these, though people could argue, at a small price there are other IDEs mentioned above which provide all these and more.

    I have loved Eclipse for it intellisense (which i believe is much stronger than VS.Net), Organize Imports (like some one said now we donot need to bother about whether I have imported some thing just use the tool and be sure), Rename or Move Interfaces, Classes, methods, variables What not!!!,
    A very interesting plugin i use regularly for review is the Jupiter plugin for code review, a wonder ful piece of work.

    Freedom for me, (esp with eclipse) is about finding such wonderful pieces of work and using them and trying to help imporoving them if possible. It is not about price, but about that choice. The choice to choose to use or the choice to tomorrow relinquish eclipse in favor of some thing i might like without having to worry about capital down the drain.

    But in the past few years the stability that eclipse has achived is a good indicator for me, that this can go a long way. Though there are concerns rightly mentioned already, lack of great XML support, etc.
    I look at it like this, If i were using VS.Net and did not like the XML Support WHAT DO I DO!? Atleast eclipse offers me free or pretty cheap plugins that I can choose to use, without having to depend on the vendor of the IDE.

    That I believe is where Eclipse for OSS scores IMO.

    One of the reasons why Reshaper is good is because it is needed by developers but VS or VS.Net doesnot provide it!


    Sarath.
  19. In short, I agree with everything you say.

    But we are talking about two different kinds of developers.

    VB was very successful - precisely because it targeted a large population of developers who wouldnt know refactoring was if they sat on one.
    And despite this, the 5yo with the 12-guage managed to bag a lot of game :-)
    -Nick
  20. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    Ahh, Smalltalkers are always there to prove you wrong ;-)

    Of course :)
    Sadly, I have never written a line of smalltalk in my life... so, like all the other times I have been countered with "smalltalk could do that in the 80's!" I will have to just trust you... :-)

    Let me give you a flavour of how wonderful it was...
    The IDE was just another program running along with many others in the Smalltalk VM. Development consisted of nothing more than adding classes and methods to a live system. At any time, any section of code could be interrupted, re-compiled and restarted without halting the system. Exceptions did not stop a program: they were just like breakpoints, so that any time an error occurred, you could always inspect and modify variables and code and resume (how I wish Java was like that). The full source code of the IDE was available, so it was routine for developers to be add their own features, and it was routine for even beginners to be able to develop their own GUI components. Full code inspection and tracing was available. Things that are considered reasonably advanced in Java-like languages - reflection, AOP etc. were totally routine, and so easy that even inexperienced Smalltalk developers would use such techniques, usually without even knowing that they were anything particularly special.

    I realise that in many ways, Java is a better language and system for serious application development and deployment: No single Smalltalk product is inexpensive + cross-platform + compatible + fast in the way that Java is, and there was not much compatibility between different Smalltalk versions. But, I have never been so productive and had so much fun coding!

    Moving to Visual Basic, where the IDE was locked away and unmodifiable, and you could not even use inheritance in the VB language, or write your own components in VB (although that changed later) was frustrating and made me annoyed - it could, and should have been better. Then, when VB gets inheritance years later in VB.NET, Microsoft call this 'innovative'! Pah - shame on them!

    You don't have to trust me: GNU Smalltalk is a good approximation to early 80s versions of the language and tools, providing you include the GUI.
    However, why do you think Visual Basic was so successful whereas Smalltalk was not? You think it was just down to "marketing"?

    Yes. Well, perhaps not just down to that, but mainly. Digitalk Smalltalk was, for a while, very successful, and nearly got there as a cheap cross-platform development system. Then the versions diverged, the price went up etc.
    For a certain class of application, VB was (and still is) very productive - and a very low barrier to entry.

    Smalltalk was designed from the start to have a very low barrier to entry, and for the beginner to be productive. Even Bill Gates went on record as saying how great it was... but I guess giving a developer all that freedom and power was considered unwise. How could you have a market for IDE extensions and components if even beginner developers could write all this themselves for free?
    PS: Give IntelliJ a go. Its a pleasure.

    I think I will, as you all say such good things about it.

    Please forgive the nostalgia trip. I believe that all developers should be encouraged to play with fun systems like Smalltalk, even if they are not going to use it in practice. Perhaps then they will know what they are missing and not put up with mediocre products.
  21. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    Steve,
     I should have known you were a smalltalker. :) And, yes, I think that is a GOOD thing.

    Mark
  22. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    Moving to Visual Basic, where the IDE was locked away and unmodifiable, and you could not even use inheritance in the VB language, or write your own components in VB (although that changed later) was frustrating and made me annoyed - it could, and should have been better. Then, when VB gets inheritance years later in VB.NET, Microsoft call this 'innovative'! Pah - shame on them!
    If I am not mistaken, VB got inheritance in version 7, a little bit earlier than .NET arrived. On the other hand, inheritance was the inherent part of Object Pascal. So Delphi had it right from the beginning. Including the possibility to create your own components (for your application or to extend IDE), full source code of VCL, great 2-way code editor, etc. The barrier to enter was extremely low. You could just create a form and slam a control onto it, and then create an event handler. But if you wanted to go further, you could get HWND for each object which represents a control, you could access main message loop or create your own, you could write DLLs, write parts of code in assembly language right within Pascal code, etc. The level of complexity in Delphi depends only on how low do you want to dig. The best IDE for Windows ever. Period.

    I really feel for Borland, that they released Delphi one year after VB. One year was enough for VB to capture the market. Timing is everything...
  23. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    If I am not mistaken, VB got inheritance in version 7, a little bit earlier than .NET arrived.
    VB7 is/was VB.Net.
  24. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    On the other hand, inheritance was the inherent part of Object Pascal. So Delphi had it right from the beginning. Including the possibility to create your own components (for your application or to extend IDE), full source code of VCL, great 2-way code editor, etc. The barrier to enter was extremely low. You could just create a form and slam a control onto it, and then create an event handler. But if you wanted to go further, you could get HWND for each object which represents a control, you could access main message loop or create your own, you could write DLLs, write parts of code in assembly language right within Pascal code, etc. The level of complexity in Delphi depends only on how low do you want to dig. The best IDE for Windows ever. Period.

    Delphi was, and is, a wonderful language and IDE (although I did feel Borland missed an opportunity by not including garbage collection). Like Turbo Pascal for Windows before it, Delphi is a great way to write high-performance Windows programs quickly. It was what Visual Basic should have been. I used Delphi for a while after it came out, and Delphi + Kylix nearly tempted me away from Java for a while many years later. I guess it did not replace VB because it did not have the Microsoft badge on it.
  25. Point taken[ Go to top ]

    Ok, ok, I was a little extreme. If I can figure out why Eclipse crashes so often for me I think I'd actually be pretty happy. It seems like that isn't the common experience. I don't have much against it otherwise, and free is a pretty nice deal.

    I type about 80 to 100 words a minute, so the super-keyboard-shortcut approach is cool but not entirely required. I tend to rely on the popups mostly to refresh my memory on documentation without leaving the current context, rather than to type faster. And the fastest way to write code is to design such that you write less of it anyway, or so that is generated ;)

    Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled thread and thanks for the tips.
  26. Point taken[ Go to top ]

    I type about 80 to 100 words a minute, so the super-keyboard-shortcut approach is cool but not entirely required

    No, no, not so. :-)
    Just think about how much faster you could write using these features.

    (actually, do check out those links - its the first time I have looked at the feature-list in over 2 years... - Jetbrains have done a fantastic job on that documentation)

    And if you are using intellij 4.5, you must check out the productivity statistics - find out what features you arent using! Even I learned a new feature!

    -Nick
  27. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    This "microsoft build the best ide's" myth is a hangover from their 1990's success - and only believed by people who have never used IntelliJ or Eclipse.
    Or who never used Turbo C or Delphi. Or who have not had a chance to compare Turbo Debugger to CodeView.
  28. Visual Age For Java++[ Go to top ]

    I love eclipse because it gives me the java browsing perspective that I had in Visual Age for Java which was inspired by Smalltalk object browsing IDEs like Visual Works. If your into objects then you just want to see your work as objects rather than files. (And your compiled all the time if you want on a workspace level and deployment and run can be a snap) Interestingly, alot of folks who use eclipse for Java dont even use the Java Browsing perspective because theyve never used such an IDE and prefer the "left pane" tree, "right pane" editor thing which I gladly do without.

    Eclipse has done wonders with perspectives which allow me to have my preference and allow the left-right pane file people have theirs too which is cool.

    The only drawback with perspectives is that I find that in a rich environment like WSAD I end up switching between them way too much. If I end up using a left pane based perspective such as the resource perspective I feel lost because some other perspective doesnt show me everything I need so its just a glorified windows explorer.

    Maybe it could be more adaptive somehow. Plugins seem to center around a given perspective and its frustrating to go to the java browsing perspective to do refactoring and then to another to edit the web.xml file or the struts config. Especially when you do it all day long collapsing trees and opening trees again and again. They tried to do it with the wsad J2EE perspective but thats just a root node to get into other perspectives not really a solution.

    Maybe eclipse 3.0 is better dont know but Id like better transition between the perspectives so I dont lose my place in the context of the tree views and such as I switch.

    Other than that I cant see anything close to this stuff. Ive tried em all and all the left pane right ones cant touch this thing overall.

    Who is discouraging the free EJB and web plugins for Eclipse anyway? ahem. Cmon we know who you are.
  29. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    I've never had the problems you had except when I was using Eclipse on the Blackdown JVM, where I experienced some crashing. I've been using Eclipse for three years and I'm currently on version 3.1M4, on the JRockit JVM.

    My current employer makes me use IDEA for our Java development, and I was eager to find out why everyone was so excited about it. After using it for almost four months, I don't understand the hype. I haven't found anything that Eclipse doesn't offer, and often Eclipse offers it in a more full-featured way. If it's so intuitive, how come after four months, I haven't figured out how to generate a try-catch block around some code? (ok, i guess some IDEAers are thinking, "what an idiot, he hasn't figured that out!", but an intuitive IDE should've gotten an idiot like me to know these things by now.) And I find it a little frustrating to know that there are no IDEA plugins out there for alternative frameworks like Spring, FreeMarker and Hibernate. (are there? ok, didn't really look all that much)

    In fairness, I haven't really spent ALL four months on IDEA. Most of that time I've actually been doing C++ code. Which IDE do I use for C++? Eclipse! ;) Have also started learning Python and have been looking at Eclipse plugins for Python and Jython. Possibly stick in a plugin for C# or Perl or PHP if the need comes around. ;)

    Calen
  30. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    haven't found anything that Eclipse doesn't offer, and often Eclipse offers it in a more full-featured way. If it's so intuitive, how come after four months, I haven't figured out how to generate a try-catch block around some code? (ok, i guess some IDEAers are thinking, "what an idiot, he hasn't figured that out!", but an intuitive IDE should've gotten an idiot like me to know these things by now.)

    I'll say because you are biased. For those who don't know, you can select a block of code, hit ctr-alt-t and get a list of code options from for loops to try-catch.

    If, in 4 months, you haven't found that, you aren't interested in trying.

    Why not tell your employer that since everyone uses ant, why not let you use Eclipse? It's been years since I've heard of a company making anyone use anything.
  31. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    It's been years since I've heard of a company making anyone use anything.
    I could give you a list. Well, I would tell you person-to-person but not on this forum. Within the last year I've worked for a Company that EVERYTHING had to be approved. Problem was that those doing the approving were not in the know about Java dev. In the slightest.
  32. Eclipse - okay, for free[ Go to top ]

    It's been years since I've heard of a company making anyone use anything.
    I could give you a list. Well, I would tell you person-to-person but not on this forum. Within the last year I've worked for a Company that EVERYTHING had to be approved. Problem was that those doing the approving were not in the know about Java dev. In the slightest.

    Sucks. But allow me to modify my previous statement. It's been a while since I had a company order the use of a particular dev tool. My company worked with a company that originally said that we had to use JDeveloper, but we held firm and stated that as long as Ant is the common denominator, we won't introduce those IDE project build issues of the past.

    That was the one item they were reasonable about.
  33. os[ Go to top ]

    http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php
    (as the url says)

    You get better support and stuff that works. At least you can tell there are other users. Developers are there, not like test of will with commercial phone support. And you get the source without being in lng legal meetings.

    Imagine a business that has racks of servers, why spend $ on all licensing. Less captial is better, give the $ back to shareholders of your organization.

    Linux + Samba + Gnome (vs MS Etnerprise Networking thing + MS Exchange)
    PostgreSQL (vs Oracle)
    Tomcat + iBatis (vs Bea EJB)
    OpenOffice (vs MS Office)
    Eclipse (vs Borland)
    JDNC (vs Flex)
    You can then get a niceer AMD box(es) 4-16 way w/ SCSI cacheing controllers.

    If you have one or 2 servers for deprmental use, it's no big deal to go commercial. For large sites that are revene/profit driven.... it gets into 7 digits.
    THERE ARE NO BUDGET MEETINGS!

    You can spend $ on us, the programmers.

    .V
  34. os[ Go to top ]

    There are still a couple of gaps. For one, i haven't seen a viable exchange replacement yet in opensource. If there is one, I'd love to hear about it. I'm using Bynari server, which isn't opensource but is a replacement for exchange and seems to work pretty well. It also plays well with Outlook (though not yet with Entourage or other Mac mail programs, so there's a big gap).

    As for JDNC vs flex, I think Laszlo is the OS competitor to flex. JDNC doesn't quite match up to Flex. For one thing, JDNC requires a JRE on a client, where Flex (and Laszlo) only require the Flash player. The Flash player is a lot more ubiquitous than a decent JRE, and more importantly, it installs MUCH more cleanly and looks a lot nicer when it starts up.
  35. os[ Go to top ]

    i haven't seen a viable exchange replacement yet in opensource. If there is one, I'd love to hear about it.

    Most if not all comercial email providers... including MS Hotmail use OpenSource Linux based mail servers.
    It is an area where O/S domianites.


    .V
  36. os[ Go to top ]

    But exchange does much more than just mail...

    Rob
  37. os[ Go to top ]

    But exchange does much more than just mail...Rob

    I would not know :-) :-) :-)
    .V
  38. os[ Go to top ]

    But exchange does much more than just mail...Rob

    Checkout -
    http://mirror.open-xchange.org/ox/EN/community/

    Yes, Exchange is more than mail, but doing anything outside the box is a pain. Like trying to code in .Net and call Exchange COM functionality.
  39. SHAME[ Go to top ]

    requires a JRE on a client, where Flex (and Laszlo) only require the Flash player. The Flash player is a lot more ubiquitous than a decent JRE, and more importantly, it installs MUCH more cleanly and looks a lot nicer when it starts up.

    Ture.It's a Shame that Sun is acutley unaware. There is a 4 year old bug that prevents deployment of more Java applications. Please help do something about it.
    http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=315&tstart=0
    Post a message.

    .V
  40. os[ Go to top ]

    yeah, that'd be nice Vic. Except most developers don't get to choose what goes in the server room. the server folks, and the technical support staff decides that type of stuff.

    sometimes software development management gets involved, but they don't mind letting the technical services department budget pay out for software licenses and for server hardware. TS likes to have a name and a worthless support contract behind them. Red Hat realized this and now charge more than microsoft to put their software on a server box.

    regarding the legal meetings... you've got to be real careful when choosing the tools you use to avoid the legal meetings. the GPL is very very viral, and if you're using MySQL as a database, and use it's GPL drivers, you're going to have to GPL your application. or at least there's enough controversy to get yourself back into the legal meetings.

    if you stick with apache and postgresql and the tools you mention you'll probably be safe.
  41. GPL is about free enterprise[ Go to top ]

    I think it's important to stop the spread of propaganda that surrounds the GPL. MS is spending millions to perpetuate the myth that "The GPL is viral". The GPL is all about free enterprise. It's the beauty of capitalism and free markets. In fact I would suggest that the GPL may be the answer to our oursourcing woes in that it empowers programmers more that corporations do.

    The GPL prevents programmers from stealing, it makes for a level playing field. The success of Gnu/Linux is primarily due to the choice of GPL as the licensing. Does it make difficult certain business models based on erecting proprietary barriers to entry by painting crappy code with pretty colors, perhaps.

    But it has nothing to do with money. It's about freedom, So WTF does this have to do with viruses

    kind regards,

    Bob Dionne
  42. GPL is about free enterprise[ Go to top ]

    You presume that microsoft is targetting techies. Actually, you don't, but the argument kind of hints it.

    They are targetting folks who don't care about technology, do care about buzz words and have a personal belief in faries (and other invisible folk). Most of the human race believe what they are told if the person saying it is pretty/and/or/rich/powerful. Trust is a wonderful thing.

    GPL viral. I believe it man.

    Jonathan
  43. GPL is about free enterprise[ Go to top ]

    I think it's important to stop the spread of propaganda that surrounds the GPL. MS is spending millions to perpetuate the myth that "The GPL is viral".

    I thought that the "viral" concept was espoused by the Gnu organization itself. I thought it was considered a positive attribute by Gnu, not a negative.
    The success of Gnu/Linux is primarily due to the choice of GPL as the licensing.

    Only in that it allowed them to "steal" most of FreeBSD and prevented FreeBSD from getting back any improvements. ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  44. stealing from freeBSD[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps it is, though I don't recall seeing RMS use the phrase "viral" in any of the published docs at FSF. I most often hear it used by folks criticizing GPL because it prevents them from embedded free software into their proprietary software.

    Your comment about stealing from "freeBSD" is interesting, could you elaborate on that?
  45. stealing from freeBSD[ Go to top ]

    Your comment about stealing from "freeBSD" is interesting, could you elaborate on that?

    The entire network stack in Linux and many drivers (including things like "IDE drives") originally came from FreeBSD. In a few cases that I remember, the license text and attribution was even stripped off the GPLd code too, but that eventually got corrected.

    Anyhow, fixes to that GPLd code can't be donated back to FreeBSD, so Linux can technically take what it wants from FreeBSD, but the opposite is not allowed.

    I only mentioned it because you said something about GPL preventing stealing of code, and so I wanted to point out that there are two sides to that street ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  46. point taken[ Go to top ]

    thanks, it's good to learn this.

    regards,

    Bob Dionne
  47. stealing from freeBSD[ Go to top ]

    Anyhow, fixes to that GPLd code can't be donated back to FreeBSD
    Yes, they can. The author of a change has the copyright on their change, and can freely alter the BSD source tree in the same way.
  48. stealing from freeBSD[ Go to top ]

    Anyhow, fixes to that GPLd code can't be donated back to FreeBSD

    Yes, they can. The author of a change has the copyright on their change, and can freely alter the BSD source tree in the same way.

    Exactly. The author has the right to make the same fix twice, assuming that the author knows where to go to submit a fix to FreeBSD, and the author is aware that the code came from there, and the author cares to do all that. Anything else that I missed?

    So, like I said:
    Anyhow, fixes to that GPLd code can't be donated back to FreeBSD

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  49. I think it's important to stop the spread of propaganda that surrounds the GPL. MS is spending millions to perpetuate the myth that "The GPL is viral". The GPL is all about free enterprise. It's the beauty of capitalism and free markets. In fact I would suggest that the GPL may be the answer to our oursourcing woes in that it empowers programmers more that corporations do.The GPL prevents programmers from stealing, it makes for a level playing field. The success of Gnu/Linux is primarily due to the choice of GPL as the licensing. Does it make difficult certain business models based on erecting proprietary barriers to entry by painting crappy code with pretty colors, perhaps.But it has nothing to do with money. It's about freedom, So WTF does this have to do with viruseskind regards,Bob Dionne

    Have you ever looket at GPL and considered releasing a piece of software under it? When I say a piece of software I mean more than a college project that you never realy intended to use or make money with.
    The success of Linux has nothing to do with it being released under GPL, it has everything to do with the likes of RedHat, Suse etc. who have built very creative business models around the product. Success means business success and not so much geek fan base. Moreover, the phrase "business model" contains the word "business", which implies revenue. Free = no revenue. Also, free != cost effective (most of the times).
    The trend I see is that more and more businesses come out with products or services around the work of countless uncompensated developers. While some of them have no problem with that, I do. To me "free" also means the fredom to chill and have a beer after a day of work, knowing that all bills are paid. I can't achieve that by putting out free software.
    To make a long story short, I think that more often than not free software means cost somewhere else and I find this "free software or die" attitude to be rather. I have no problem paying for software when it cuts the amount of time I need to spend doing something.

    ... as for your comment about GPL being the answer to the outsourcing woes, that's naive to say the least.
    I will remind you that in most jurisdictions in the world (other than the West), people don't give a rat's behind about licenses. Give them GPL software and they'll use it any way they please ... maybe they'll even say thank you.

    Cheers!
  50. free as in freedom, not price[ Go to top ]

    DB4O is released as free software under GPL
    MySQL is also
    NetKernel has a modified GPL, etc. etc..

    Then there is IBM, spending millions on GPL software and making millions on GPL software.

    The GPL prevents the kind of free loading you speak of. Microsoft has leveraged "open source" software in their code, there by freeloading on the efforts of others. Nothing prevents one from making a business out of free software. Isn't that what Plone vendors are doing?

    It's not about free beer, though some may wish it were, we all love free beer.

    FYI, I've used emacs my entire 20+ years of programming. I've never had the desire to extend it or pass on the small extensions I've made ( the contents of my .emacs file ). It's a beautiful thing really and contains lots of useful ideas that are being rediscovered and reinvented again. For some reason this happens a lot in compsci. I mention it only to point out that as GPL software it comes with the license and I read it often. It's beautiful when you look at it the right way, especially as it wasn't written by a lawyer, but rather a programmer.

    best regards,

    Bob Dionne
  51. outsourcing[ Go to top ]

    sorry to be so wordy, but I am familiar with how things work somewhat in Asia and what I meant was that if there is no money to be made by producing software at low cost by offshoring to India/China/Ukraine/etc. and charging proprietary license fees in the US market then that leverage game goes away. In others words free software empowers programmers the most.

    I personally think we've created this IP mess by applying propery law that works well with land/oil/houses/chips, etc.. to software.

    Software is truly different with almost zero marginal distribution fees. Moreover software needs to constantly change to adapt to changing hardware and business needs. Free software models are superior in this regard. This is the reason they are winning market share. One could argue much of the NEt is powered with Free software.
  52. GPL is about free enterprise[ Go to top ]

    I think it's important to stop the spread of propaganda that surrounds the GPL. MS is spending millions to perpetuate the myth that "The GPL is viral".
    It's not a myth. Not only is it viral, that's actually how the FSF wants it and promotes it.

    It's viral because if you use GPL code, you need to make your code GPL as well.

    Which is why it's banned in 100% of all the companies (and even open source projects) that I have ever worked or interacted with.

    The GPL gives you a choice, and most of the time, people choose to say "thanks, but no thanks".

    --
    Cedric
  53. Point also taken[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps you are right about use of the term "viral", though I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned in FSF web pages. I often hear is used by propagandists who claim RMS is a communist and claim the FSF folks don't want programmers to make a living. Viral has a negative connotation and in fact the GPL doesn't act like a virus. The idea of free software though is an interesting meme.

    I would argue that the choice of GPL has been a critical success factor for Linux. Companies you've worked at have steered clear of it, as has my company, but clearly some embrace it, .eg. folks who use dual licensing.

    What's clear is that the restrictions on derivative works prevent users from accepting GPL software, modifying it and using it to sell products without sharing the source. It seems to me that a dual licensing model allows one to capture mindshare by allowing fellow programmers to try software, inspect the source and see if it fits. Commercial licensing then allows embedding in proprietary code and/or support for those who preferthat route. There are companies doing this and it seems to work.

    Of all these "open source" licenses it seems to me that only the GPL truly protects programmers from seeing their hard work incorporated in the products of others. If you want to work on something and give it away for free ( as in price ) and not care if someone else make money from you work, then that's cool also. But using GPL requires that others share and not take away form others what they've been given.

    Perhaps the real confusion is that we've come to take for granted that software is "property". Maybe that's the real lame idea. Before the internet IBM used to act as a clearinghouse for changes to all it's software, which came free with the mainframes. I suppose it was a clever idea to see that the diff between source and object code could be used to make a program a piece of property, it certainly worked well for Microsoft.

    It's interesting,my understanding is that the Dakota indians regarded things like names and tepee paintings as property. One couldn't just use someones name, especially outside the tribe. On the other hand they regarded land as owned by all.

    If programming is just mathematics, does anyone have a right to own it.

    Anyway if you read these words and compile them into internal representations and run them through your brain, perhaps you'll think other thoughts. But they are free to you, imagine the GPL attached :)

    regards,

    Bob Dionne
  54. Point also taken[ Go to top ]

    Viral has a negative connotation and in fact the GPL doesn't act like a virus.

    Viral has both positive and negative connotations. For example, "viral marketing" is considered a good thing.

    However, I am curious how you can suggest that GPL is not viral.
    It seems to me that a dual licensing model allows one to capture mindshare by allowing fellow programmers to try software, inspect the source and see if it fits. Commercial licensing then allows embedding in proprietary code and/or support for those who preferthat route. There are companies doing this and it seems to work.

    Ironically, such a scheme cannot itself be based on GPL libraries or products. In other words, to pull off what you just described, you can't use any GPL.

    Regarding the "it seems to work" part of what you said, how many software companies with more than five employees are doing this successfully and profitably? Please don't list MySQL more than four or five times in your answer ;-)
    Perhaps the real confusion is that we've come to take for granted that software is "property". Maybe that's the real lame idea.

    As soon as all other industries start giving away their goods and services, we should consider doing the same.

    Just as an aside, the GPL couldn't work if software were not covered by property law.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  55. It's about Freedom, not price[ Go to top ]

    I'm certainly not advocating one should give away software for free, or services, but rather that free software makes better software, it's a superior model, a detailed argument about this can be read here

    Viruses propogate themselves, that's their main goal, regardless of whatever harm is done to the host.

    Free software is about four main freedoms. The GPL restricts one from taking away those freedoms from others. If one uses free software to build software of additional value then it strike me as stealing to not want to share that value. Other open source models allow this but GPL does not. There's nothing wrong with that. It seems also to produce better software.

    I suppose MS doesn't like the GPL because it doesn't allow then to take software like kerberos, modify it to create advantage and bundle it into their software. In that case they shouldn't use free software. It's a matter of choice.

    regards,

    Bob Dionne
  56. Why can't you open your stuff?[ Go to top ]

    , and if you're using MySQL as a database, and use it's GPL drivers, you're going to have to GPL your application. or at least there's enough controversy to get yourself back into the legal meetings. if you stick with apache and postgresql and the tools you mention you'll probably be safe.

    Why worry about GPL?

    If we can get the GREAT FREE software occupying all of the server room, (OK, OK, you still have to pay for the silicon and the metal boxes,) why should your software worth anything? The GREAT FREE stuff is better implemented than yours, better documented than yours by your illiterate document writers and better supported by real talent develpers than yours by the dummies at your company.

    If they are not better now, they will become better sooner than you can fix your bugs. If your software does something unique and has any market, some GREAT FREE software will come up before you ship the next release.

    So I suggest you stop charging money, GPL your software products, post your download URL here and go flip burgers.

    ;-)
  57. os[ Go to top ]

    http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php(as the url says)You get better support and stuff that works. At least you can tell there are other users. Developers are there, not like test of will with commercial phone support. And you get the source without being in lng legal meetings. Imagine a business that has racks of servers, why spend $ on all licensing. Less captial is better, give the $ back to shareholders of your organization. Linux + Samba + Gnome (vs MS Etnerprise Networking thing + MS Exchange)PostgreSQL (vs Oracle)Tomcat + iBatis (vs Bea EJB)OpenOffice (vs MS Office)Eclipse (vs Borland)JDNC (vs Flex)You can then get a niceer AMD box(es) 4-16 way w/ SCSI cacheing controllers.If you have one or 2 servers for deprmental use, it's no big deal to go commercial. For large sites that are revene/profit driven.... it gets into 7 digits. THERE ARE NO BUDGET MEETINGS!You can spend $ on us, the programmers. .V

    Yes, I suppose in a choice between free Eclipse and $5000 JBuilder I'd take Eclipse. Probably even if JBuilder was free. But free Eclipse vs. $500 Intellij IDEA? How much productivity do I have to pick up to make up $500? Not much... Seems like a good deal to me.
  58. os[ Go to top ]

    Or Eclipse for free versus IDEA for free (if you contribute to an open source project). Or IDEA for free if you want to use EAPs.
  59. IntelliJ[ Go to top ]

    I've nothing against Eclipse and have used it on several platforms and projects. However I started using IntelliJ a few months ago. It took 2 weeks to become familiar with it, and since then I haven't looked back. I strongly recommend it. The small per-developer fee is money well spent.

    Kind regards, Robin.
  60. Free Open Source[ Go to top ]

    Free Open Source

    RH Linux:
    - Fedora - experimental, unstable ...
    - Enterprise RH - stable; you have to buy a support contract; more expensive than Solaris 10 support contract

    Suse:
    - do they have any free version???

    JBoss:
    - OK, but you have to pay for a professional documentation

    Tomcat:
    - OK; why? maybe because all big J2EE players are pumping money there, so they can plug it into their app servers ...


    Human nature is about making money ...

    Also I got a feeling from jobserve.co.uk that open source specialists get less money than close source ...

    regards,
    df
  61. Free Open Source[ Go to top ]

    Tomcat:- OK; why? maybe because all big J2EE players are pumping money there,

    Can you show ANY J2EE player, other than open source jBoss is pumping ANY money into Tomcat?

    .V
  62. Free Open Source[ Go to top ]

    Tomcat:- OK; why? maybe because all big J2EE players are pumping money there,
    Can you show ANY J2EE player, other than open source jBoss is pumping ANY money into Tomcat?.V

    http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/1999/board_minutes_1999_09_16.txt

    RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the Jakarta Project Management Committee.

    Elias Bayeh, IBM <ebayeh at us dot ibm dot com>
    Hans Bergstein <hans at gefionsoftware dot com>
    James Davidson, Sun <duncan at apache dot org>
    Pierpaolo Fumagalli, IBM <pier at apache dot org>
    Craig McClanahan, MyTownNet <cmcclanahan at mytownnet dot com>
    Stefano Mazzocchi, Independent <stefano at apache dot org>
    Jon Stevens, Clear Ink <jon@working-dogs.com>
    James Todd, Sun <gonzo at eng dot sun dot com>
  63. Free Open Source[ Go to top ]

    <blockquoteHuman nature is about making money ...I can have more profit by paying less. Lets say you have several 4 CPU boxes and you run advacned server software. Why pay 7 digits, when you can pay $0.

    And which is more secure and stable, Linux or Windoze?
    Some organiuzations are not driven by profit, they are instituionalized lemmings.

    Here is a prediction in PDF reprint from a MS centric magazine as to who will win out OS vs MS:
    http://www.sandrasf.com/other/sandra/Dvorak.pdf

    Wait and see, may the best one win.
    .V
  64. Free Open Source[ Go to top ]

    Human nature is about making money ...

    I can have more profit by paying less.

    No. You can have more profit by increasing the differential between your revenue and your cost.

    You're assuming that when you decrease your cost, your revenue will stay the same. If that were the case, all companies would fire all of their employees and stop buying anything.
    Lets say you have several 4 CPU boxes and you run advacned server software. Why pay 7 digits, when you can pay $0.

    Why even buy 4-CPU boxes? Buying zero zero-CPU boxes would be $0 ..

    The only reason to pay any money for software (or hardware or employees or consultants) is that it creates revenue and/or solves problems more cost effectively than the other options, where cost=f(time, money, opportunity).

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  65. Odd...[ Go to top ]

    I've been using IntelliJ for two years and have never felt "tied down", with the possible exception of being limited to using Java. And that restriction will be fading away soon.

    While Eclipse offers lots of plugins that allow developers a great variety of customized options, it's appeal for me is non-existant by virtue of it's unintuitive interface.

    I guess freedom isn't simply a factor of whether something is open source or not.

    Marc

    p.s. I love open source projects and I have used them on every project I have worked on in the last several years.
  66. I've been using free open source software for many years and there's great stuff out there. But the economics of FOSS start to worry me. As it turns out, most companies don't want to rely purely on volunteers and for some types of software, volunteers alone are simply unable to produce a fully featured solution. That's why all those new, more professional, business models around FOSS have emerged. Apparently the two most successful models are:

    (a) big vendor funds OSS project and sells very expensive stuff on top of it.

    (b) big vendor or small consortium/company offers support and services around a srawling, badly documented and badly coordinated range of packages and fragments of OSS software.

    I don't like some of the dynamics that these models cause. Eclipse is a case in point. In its core, it has a world class design, but the set of plug-ins it comes with is incomplete. This is 2005 and the most widely used Java IDE doesn't come with decent support for XML or any of the J2EE technologies. How can something like this happen? I know, there are eclipse sub-projects under way that will eventually solve this problem. And I know there are plug-ins for many of these things. I've tried some of them and I have to say it wasn't pleasant. I'm not saying that this isn't going to be resolved or that there are no workarounds. But if you want this problem to be solved comprehensively and instantly (on top of eclipse), what you need to do is go to IBM and pay them a couple of thousand dollars.

    I find it hard to believe that this is purely coincidential. I'm more inclined to think it is a consequence of the particular business model that eclipse is based on. It comes down to a few big vendors throwing us a few (if high quality) crumbs and have us pay huge sums to get the real thing. In a way, this lacks economic scalability.

    It's even worse with mysql. If you grow out of mysql and you have to move over to Oracle, you not only pay big time license fees (although not as much as it used to be), you also have to develop a whole new set of skills or buy expensive developers (like myself) who know Oracle.

    Now, you need not flood me with counter examples and workarounds. I know that they exist. But what bothers me is, that with some of the most popular building blocks of open source software stacks, there is a danger of being trapped between the very cheap and basic on the one hand, and the very expensive on the other. For some reason, the offerings in the middle don't seem to have much market-share and I don't think this is a healthy situation.
  67. oss works this way ....

    If you know what your doing you get it for free, with a little
    outlay in time and effort.

    Else if you don't know what your doing you pay someone to do it for you.

    It's a little bit like the difference between people who know
    how to fix a leaking sink themselves and those who call a
    plumber at 100 eur an hour to do a task that takes 5 minutes.

    --b
  68. Yes it sometimes works this way, but not in other cases.

    Say you have a lot of data, some relational data, some XML, some other kinds of documents, and you want to do queries, transformations and analytics efficiently across all these kinds of data. A situation you are going to find in portal, content management and data warehousing projects.

    Now if you take mysql you get some relational query functionality and a very limited fulltext option. And then you go get eXist (which is the best open source XML datbase I know) and combine both with Lucene for world class fulltext functionality. Does that give you all the same power you get from the integrated relational/XML/fulltext functionality you get from the likes of Oracle, Microsoft or IBM? No, not at all. It doesn't scale because you can't do joins across three different DBMS, you don't have an optimizer that takes into account all parts of your query and has access to all indexes and statistics. It is awkward to use and you have to do messy, complicated things to make transactional updates. It's somewhat better with postgres but you run into the same fundamental problem.

    So that's one area where the gap between low cost open source solutions and the big commercial vendors is, if anything, growing.
  69. But what bothers me is, that with some of the most popular building blocks of open source software stacks, there is a danger of being trapped between the very cheap and basic on the one hand, and the very expensive on the other. For some reason, the offerings in the middle don't seem to have much market-share and I don't think this is a healthy situation.

    Open source had reason to thrive largely because companies like the ones that you mentioned raised their prices to such high levels. Once that trend started, it fed on itself, because when those companies started losing the low end to open source, they had to up their prices on the high end in order to maintain or grow their revenue. (Repeat ad nauseum.) Any companies "left behind" (that couldn't become super-high-end) just died.

    The causational factor is that a too-large percentage of the software industry was turning out over-priced and under-supported products, forcing companies (and individuals) to look for alternatives that they would have otherwise never considered. (Open source may be commonly accepted now, but even a decade ago it was a totally different industry.)

    Unfortunately, there could be no commercial alternative, because there is no room to compete in established software markets: Up front R&D costs are high and ongoing costs are marginal, giving all the economies of scale to the established vendors. For example, the established players are forced to compete on price only in the areas that they feel threatened, allowing them to destroy the margins for any new entry trying to grab a toe-hold in the market.

    I would suggest that the only remaining alternative was open source. For example, I think I could make a logical argument that only an open source operating system could compete in the PC market. What freedom source / open source (e.g. Linux) accomplished was to use the "economy of scale" weapon against the established vendors (e.g. Microsoft with Windows), and thus survived the initial market entry, because the established vendors only initially gave up the low end of the market, pushing those margins down close to zero (which is their natural competitive defense), but open source software can thrive just as well in a market with no margins, precisely because its survival does not require a market with any margin.

    The irony is that Microsoft used to be compared to the Borg all the time, and yet they are truly being out-Borg'd by Linux. They can't kill it. They can't even seem to slow it down. And they compete with it on price at their own peril.

    The result is relatively easy to predict from an economic model point-of-view:

    1: The cost of Windows will increase so that Microsoft's revenues (and thus profits and thus stock price) will stay healthy.
    2: A small fraction of would-be-Windows-users will switch the Linux alternative.
    3: GOTO 1

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  70. FYI: I read this, or something like it in a mag.

    "Linux figures are being boosted because of rollouts in 3rd world and emerging economies. The purchasers then immediatly install pirated versions of ms.

    To fight these misleading metrics ms will be releasing ms lite (or something) for these markets - basically a working os with some bits removed. V v cheap. The users will no doubt continue to overwrite with pirated full versions but at least the stats will look healthy."

    This is not the complete story, and I'm not making any point here. I just thought the whole process of jumping through hoops was amusing.

    Jonathan
  71. Yeah, you gotta be cautious when a big vendor starts supporting an opensource project. I'm trying to move away from Fedora right now, and the alternatives are excellent! I've got Gentoo on another workstation and some collegues have Mepis and Ubuntu on theirs.

    What we've reailized is Red Hat modifies opensource software before packaging them as RPMs, for some reason or another. Just take OpenOffice for example. I was trying to install a plugin for OpenOffice but couldn't figure out how to install it in the OpenOffice that came with the Fedora distribution.

    My rule of thumb now is to primarily use opensource software that's not backed by some big name.
  72. Development v/s Deployment[ Go to top ]

    No one claims that OSS fits one and all. And it is important to distinguish both developer tools and deployment environments.

    For development tools, organizations are much more open to using OSS tools. But for deployment, its not you or me (developers) who can decide whether to utilize an OSS component. Several organizations simply refuse a component that is OSS for a project that is to be deployed. They dont even want to consider the merits/demerits. Just plain no. They call it policies -- though one might call it politics. However one cannot simply blame them without knowing about their experiences with OSS.

    However the same organizations have no qualms about using OSS tools like Eclipse, Tomcat to do the development. Economics and not Politics at play here.

    In summary, the choices that we have today will hopefully lead to better and informed decision making.
  73. OSS monopolistic?[ Go to top ]

    IntelliJ is brilliant. I used it when it cost $200, but then noticed all the client sites switching to Eclipse, so I did. A no brainer really, it's free and does all the refactoring etc. But more importantly it currently has 'mindshare'.

    I've seen Visual Cafe, Visual Age, JBuilder and IntelliJ peak and then die out. The one advantage Eclipse has is that its pushed by IBM (and others now) and they can afford to make it good enough, without charging money for it.

    Now, if Microsoft had done this we would be up in arms and say its anti-competitive. (remember IE's release and the browser wars, or their media player for instance).

    The difference here is not open source, its the fact it is free and that it currently has market share. In two years it could be IntelliJ - it deserves to be IntelliJ because they have an amazing product, without massive funding from an industry golliath to get them off the ground.

    So the fact it's OSS is meaningless, the fact it is good enough and that it is free is the real factor.

    IMHO.

    Jonathan

    MicroSpring - IOC in 30K
  74. After 3 happy years with IntelliJ IDEA, I've finally made a project in Eclipse - I had to prepare a workshop and, unfortunately, the rest of team is using Eclipse, well, "because it is free".

    Well, what should I say... have you ever tried to drive Huyndai/KIA/Opel car right after being happily driving your shiny BMW/Mercedes/Jaguar for several years?

    To make that statement stand, just a few examples... well, just these little things that I do many many times a day without even thinking about it in IDEA

    1. In Eclipse I have to manually REFRESH (F5) files from workspace after I've changed them in other way (e.g. via code generation from ANT file!) Not to say that any files/folders

    2. When I type the name of the class which is not imported yet, I have to CLICK on that [X] icon to be prompted with a list of possible import classes. In IDEA, just do Alt-Enter and if this is the only class, that's it. I don't have to take a mouse at all.

    3. When generating getter/setters, instead of doing Alt-Ins Down Down Enter Enter in IDEA, in Eclipse I have to go via menus, clicking to select which fields I want... and again that mouse. And the very same thing about constructors.

    4. When changes in one class are affecting the other, I have to SAVE these changes until the affected class will finally update itself and don't show syntax errors anymore.

    5. No XML support! It's 21 century, come on guys. Even though I must admit there are glitches in XML support in IDEA, at least syntax highlight, not to say DTD/schema. Well, maybe there's a plug-in for that, I haven't looked... but anyway, how many %%s of you Java people are never touching any XML?

    6. No smart syntax highlight: attributes vs. local variables; also never used attributes/variables highlighted.

    7. Comments. Is it complicated to JUMP to next line down when I press Ctrl-/? How often you need to comment out A COUPLE of lines, so with Eclipse you do: Ctrl-/ Down Ctrl-/ Down... what a [censored]

    8. Although Ctrl-Space provides some context-aware substitutions it's WAY far from being consistent. Try to press Ctrl-Space in a method(value) right after left bracket and one step right. And then try to understand WHY they've done it like that.

    This list of flaws Eclipse usability could be actually endless... well, I must admin it's still better than to write your code in Notepad, but in *my* view *my* productivity (not to say - RSI syndrome from all those useless movements) is definitely worth these money JetBrains are asking for their product.
  75. Small correction:
    1. In Eclipse I have to manually REFRESH (F5) files from workspace after I've changed them in other way (e.g. via code generation from ANT file!) Not to say that any files/folders

    ... in project directories, added in any other way (e.g. by copying) are just not picked up immediately. I have to make 'import' or do any other strange things
  76. I have been using the Eclipse for more than 4 years now, I used it to build EJB, Web application, Java Application, Eclipse plugin and many other type applications. Obviously it is perfect for me, but some of my colleagues just could not get used to it while we were developing J2EE application. On the other hand, WSAD (base on Eclipse from IBM) is much more easier to use than Eclipse, especially when we need to develop application for Websphere Application Server(WSAD has huge foot print).

    Eclipse is perfect for more experienced developer. IDE like WSAD, Visual Cafe, IntelliJ and many others commercial Java IDE, they are also good for dummy.

    OSS's creator used to assume the users are "super user" like him/her, and they work for free, that also leads to have poor documentation.
  77. My point was about usablility in Eclipse (or rather lack thereof). It has nothing to do with all those crappy deployment wizards and other WebSphere-ish stuff in WSAD which are indeed "good for dummy".

    Me, as an "experienced developer" (5 years Java to date) prefers something that let's me write and change the CODE quick and reliably, feeling the project heartbeat at my fingertips, rather than clicking that [censored] mouse in myriad screens.
    Therefore, I don't like Eclipse because it feels quite clunky and I don't like WSAD because it's poured from the same barrel as Eclipse and it's bloated with features that solve problems, which are solved by a couple of JACL scripts just as easily.

    (Indeed if you are used to press Down arrow key every time you comment out a line, then all that usability talks are nothing for you)
  78. eclipse[ Go to top ]

    No XML support

    Have you tried the XML buddy plugin?

    .V
  79. eclipse[ Go to top ]

    No XML support
    Have you tried the XML buddy plugin?.V

    I think the point being made is that a modern IDE should not require plugins to handle such things: it should be a standard feature. I feel the same way about features like GUI design tools and J2EE support.
  80. eclipse[ Go to top ]

    No XML support
    Have you tried the XML buddy plugin?.V
    I think the point being made is that a modern IDE should not require plugins to handle such things: it should be a standard feature. I feel the same way about features like GUI design tools and J2EE support.
    True. But Eclipse is just an RCP + Plugins. It just doesn't come by default with an XML or J2EE plugin.
  81. 1. In Eclipse I have to manually REFRESH (F5) files from workspace after I've changed them in other way (e.g. via code generation from ANT file!) Not to say that any files/folders
    True, but it works with files and folders too, no need for import actions.
    2. When I type the name of the class which is not imported yet, I have to CLICK on that [X] icon to be prompted with a list of possible import classes. In IDEA, just do Alt-Enter and if this is the only class, that's it. I don't have to take a mouse at all.
    False. Press Ctrl-Space.
    3. When generating getter/setters, instead of doing Alt-Ins Down Down Enter Enter in IDEA, in Eclipse I have to go via menus, clicking to select which fields I want... and again that mouse. And the very same thing about constructors.
    False. Use: Alt-Shift-R Enter
    4. When changes in one class are affecting the other, I have to SAVE these changes until the affected class will finally update itself and don't show syntax errors anymore.
    True. But sounds reasonable to me that you have to save first.
    5. No XML support! It's 21 century, come on guys. Even though I must admit there are glitches in XML support in IDEA, at least syntax highlight, not to say DTD/schema. Well, maybe there's a plug-in for that, I haven't looked... but anyway, how many %%s of you Java people are never touching any XML?
    False. Lots of plugins.
    6. No smart syntax highlight: attributes vs. local variables; also never used attributes/variables highlighted.
    True.
    7. Comments. Is it complicated to JUMP to next line down when I press Ctrl-/? How often you need to comment out A COUPLE of lines, so with Eclipse you do: Ctrl-/ Down Ctrl-/ Down... what a [censored]
    True.
  82. 4. When changes in one class are affecting the other, I have to SAVE these changes until the affected class will finally update itself and don't show syntax errors anymore.
    True. But sounds reasonable to me that you have to save first.

    It doesn't seem reasonable anymore once you use IntelliJ on a project.
  83. unjust Eclipse gripes[ Go to top ]

    7. Comments. Is it complicated to JUMP to next line down when I press Ctrl-/? How often you need to comment out A COUPLE of lines, so with Eclipse you do: Ctrl-/ Down Ctrl-/ Down... what a [censored]

    No you don't. With Eclipse, you just highlight the lines you want commented, then hit Ctrl-/ just once.
    IMHO much easier/more intuitive than having to hit Ctrl-/ for each individual line as with IntelliJ.
  84. unjust Eclipse gripes[ Go to top ]

    7. Comments. Is it complicated to JUMP to next line down when I press Ctrl-/? How often you need to comment out A COUPLE of lines, so with Eclipse you do: Ctrl-/ Down Ctrl-/ Down... what a [censored]
    No you don't. With Eclipse, you just highlight the lines you want commented, then hit Ctrl-/ just once.IMHO much easier/more intuitive than having to hit Ctrl-/ for each individual line as with IntelliJ.

    This is not correct. You can select a block of text and comment the entire block in a c-style "/* */" or "//". based on ctrl-/ or ctrl-shift-/.

    It is pretty clear that you just didn't try it. The most intuitive interface will not work if the user doesn't want it to.
  85. unjust Eclipse gripes[ Go to top ]

    7. Comments. Is it complicated to JUMP to next line down when I press Ctrl-/? How often you need to comment out A COUPLE of lines, so with Eclipse you do: Ctrl-/ Down Ctrl-/ Down... what a [censored]
    No you don't. With Eclipse, you just highlight the lines you want commented, then hit Ctrl-/ just once.IMHO much easier/more intuitive than having to hit Ctrl-/ for each individual line as with IntelliJ.
    This is not correct. You can select a block of text and comment the entire block in a c-style "/* */" or "//". based on ctrl-/ or ctrl-shift-/.It is pretty clear that you just didn't try it. The most intuitive interface will not work if the user doesn't want it to.

    No, I didn't try it, didn't feel like I had to. I just commented on an IntelliJ user that made it look like in IntelliJ, you have to repeatedly hit Ctrl-/ to comment out a block of code, and then expected the same behaviour of Eclipse.
    BTW that user's remark is typical of IntelliJ users, expecting that all their IntelliJ keybindings work exactly the same in Eclipse, and then going off on a big rant when they find out it doesn't work, regardless of whether Eclipse maybe offers another keybinding or god forbid some simple mouse clicks to achieve the same goal.
    This afternoon I finally downloaded IntelliJ to see what all the fuss is about, and I disliked it right away. Colour me biased after a comfortable 3 years in Eclipse & SWT, I just can't get used to Swing apps like Netbeans & IntelliJ trying to reinvent the UI wheel (poorly).
  86. The other guy blinked:[ Go to top ]

    http://news.com.com/Microsoft+to+disable+product+activation+over+Net/2100-1011_3-5589504.html?tag=nefd.top

    "Microsoft will no longer support activating the product over the Internet"
    - now you have to call in.

    You might as well try Linux UI.

    Oh... It is ILEGAL to charge for the distro, as per Linux license. So ... people charge for CD or phone "support", but the thing just stays up. You can ALLWAY download for free and burn a CD or DVD. Eclipse runs just fine, better than on Mac. Firefox,Thuderbird... what else you use?

    .V