Sun lays off software employees

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News: Sun lays off software employees

  1. Sun lays off software employees (38 messages)

    Sun Microsystems has laid off employees in its software group, part of a gradually expanding job-cut program by a company that has yet to return to consistent revenue growth. Sun declined to say which part of the company's software group was being hit.

    Read more: Sun lays off software employees

    Threaded Messages (38)

  2. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    although Mr. Mcnealy was denying it for long time, he had to give in. You cant maintain a work force of 38,000 when you havent really seen profit for last 3 years.
  3. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    Every big company has plenty of useless employees. Layoffs are inevitable when productivity increases (think robots replacing assembly workers).
    Although part of human history is the struggle AGAINST productivity and progress.

    I wish Sun fired ‘dead wood’.
  4. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    I wish Sun fired ‘dead wood’.

    Yes, that would be great. I put forth "Stanley Ho", he should go!

    The people that know how to play politics are left. Good programers .... tend not to play politics - they show up on radar.

    All the evagelists, remote offices, SlowLaris, Sparc, Netbeans(no market share), JCP (it does nothing), admins, tech support, patch fixers (they don't patch ), middle managers.... they know how to crawll into the wood.

    Example: Top Sun managment want's more Java on Desktop and client side, they set a goal at Javaone!
    Users LOVE more Java, on desktop and client side.
    Execution: a 4 year old bug.
    http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=315&tstart=0
    So if they get rid of all the middle mamangent, they have something.

    Once Java is open source (becuase all Sun has left will be lawyers and admins) we can go fix Java patches.

    .V
  5. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    The people that know how to play politics are left. Good programers .... tend not to play politics - they show up on radar.

    Sad reality. I wish people not just programmers realize that politic is the personal matter. Go vote, do something, speak up folks.
    Sorry, pipe dreaming again
  6. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    Mr. Cekvenich,

    Your trolling on other threads relating to JavaServer Faces notwithstanding, I respectfully ask you to refrain from personal attacks. What do you hope to gain by such bile?

    Ed
  7. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    <snip>threads relating to JavaServer Faces notwithstanding

    When have I attacked JavaServer Faces?

    .V
  8. Guess they never learned[ Go to top ]

    You can't shrink your way into greatness. -- Arthur Martinez, CEO, Sears
  9. Re: it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    But, Vic: no names, no backpack drills.

    I guess you tried to use the Sun applet plug-in. ;-) Enjoy 30-second-long meaningless recursions in the displayChanged event, endless boolean flags to enter critical sections, classloader jockery, etc. Some folks shouldn't be let to program a microwave...

    Please, please don't be explicit. I usually grep the JDK source for certain author names, and when the pattern is found, I report to my management: this is beyond help, don't ever use this method, period.
  10. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    I'm sorry I implied you disparaged JavaServer Faces. I see on the thread http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=31626#156103 that you were merely requesting information. My public apologies.

    Ed Burns
  11. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    I'm astonished by this personal attack on Stanley. As a colleague who has worked with him for many years I can say that he is one of our best and most productive engineers. Anyone who knows Stanley will understand how outrageous and unfounded this comment is.

    Please refrain from peronally attacking and insulting people - including the very engineers who have invested many years of hard work into creating the Java platform.

    Thorsten Laux
  12. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    As a colleague who has worked with him for many years I can say that he is one of our best and most productive engineers. Anyone who knows Stanley will understand how outrageous and unfounded this comment is.Please refrain from peronally attacking and insulting people - including the very engineers who have invested many years of hard work into creating the Java platform.

    I will take your word that he is a nice friendly person.

    It's not an execution order, anyone with a decent resume can get a gig, no big deal. Also, I am not the CEO of Sun, so no big effect.

    I can explain if you'd like my reasons, just ask. It has to do with what I was told by C Austin (before he left Sun) and M Rehnhold in corespondance that I understood that Stanely Ho is in charge of certian things for a few years.

    It's interesting to point out that no one from Sun of you is outraged with this thread on TSS:
    http://theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=32014#158220
    It says:
    "JDNC doesn't quite match up to Flex. For one thing, JDNC requires a JRE on a client, where Flex (and Laszlo) only require the Flash player. The Flash player is a lot more ubiquitous than a decent JRE, and more importantly, it installs MUCH more cleanly and looks a lot nicer when it starts up."

    On March 1st Stanley will be leading an online live conference, sign up here:
    http://java.sun.com/developer/community/chat
    I will join to hear him. If anyone want's to form their own opinion on the issue.

    It's not personal, it's business.
    .V
  13. Execution: a 4 year old bug.http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=315&tstart=0So if they get rid of all the middle mamangent, they have something. Once Java is open source (becuase all Sun has left will be lawyers and admins) we can go fix Java patches..V
    I'm not sure I buy your holier than thou usability crusade; your sun bug report has to be the most useless I've seen to date - if this is what they have to deal with then it's no wonder that Sun has a rep for being unresponsive.
    If I was moderating a bug DB, I wouldn't have accepted a report that is completely devoid of useful description except for a link to a thrid party forum, that in turn contained a link to an RTF where the problem was actually described.
    As a security aware programmer I wish all installers were that scary - if a program is getting full access it should be. I looks to me like the problem is with JDIC needing full permissions, which leads to the warning not the warning it's self (which would be fine, if users actually ever read dialog text). Though, to me, desktop integration sounds like cause for a security warning in itself. Quite frankly the most I would change here is dialog icon: from warning to question for this case (ie trusted & valid/non-expired) - and I'm not even sure about that.
  14. As a security aware programmer ...

    Are you implying superioirty or implying that programers are not security aware?

    Why not tone down the wording, they already know that I was identified and certified, and that I certify that the code is not mallicios and that the only functions I am calling are Sun functions!

    The issue is relative usability:
    "JDNC requires a JRE on a client, where Flex (and Laszlo) only require the Flash player. The Flash player is a lot more ubiquitous than a decent JRE, and more importantly, it installs MUCH more cleanly and looks a lot nicer when it starts up."

    If above is true that it's easier to deploy Flash runtime cross platfrom....
    Then what?
    As to deployment-prevention:
    Who ever has been driving for 4 years has left us 90% there.
    Like your father-in-law that might use an internet application, he might be a target audience.
    You think the issue is that we the developers and users just need to be educated, that the wording is to protect us from ourselfs?


    .V
  15. sun bug report

    I filled a bug report separatley. In Jan. Sun changed it from bug to RFE!

    .V
  16. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    I wish Sun fired ‘dead wood’.

    Curious, whom do you refer to as 'Dead Wood' ?
  17. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    Curious, whom do you refer to as 'Dead Wood' ?
    "Betsy" -
    http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=18023
  18. it was bound to happen[ Go to top ]

    The only surprise is that the cuts did not come earlier and are not deeper. There must be many more to come.

    I've been to JavaOne and some other Sun events - and I was always amazed by how few people in their software group were involved in actually writing software.

    What's more interesting is where the talent is going.

    Google is certainly hiring lots of Java developers, of course, including some high profile names.

    What is perhaps more interesting strategically for Java is that Microsoft has hired a huge number of senior Java developers during the economic downturn.

    I personally know of some high profile examples in the Java/Web Services space that are a big loss to the Java world.

    PJ Murray
    CodeFutures Software
  19. What it indicates[ Go to top ]

    I think sun will be sold off to IBM or Oracle
  20. Vic hates Sun[ Go to top ]

    Vic hates Sun.
    So what's news?
  21. I like Java and deployment.[ Go to top ]

    JJ, are you w/ Sun?

    Do we have courage to try to help fix Java and make it more competitive? (this would help Sun! Execs said it's their strategy and we the users agree, so work from top and bottom)

    Here is what P Salas said:
    There have been so many detailed explanations of severe problems with Java Web Start. It is bewildering why Sun doesn't understand how important this issue is, for the reason that are stated in the above mentioned request.

    If we want to do well on the desktop, then there is no other way but than to provide a reliable and usable means for installing software. It is so elementary, that it boggles the mind why this is not being addressed.

    It is sooooo much more important than many of the exotic improvements in 1.5 / 5.0. The very survival of Java as a desktop platform is at stake. I would conclude that Sun doesn't care about the desktop, except that at Java One, many senior keynoters went on and on about how strategically important this is to Sun's future.
    He is author of
    http://www.blogbridge.com/install/weekly/blogbridge.jnlp

    You can see I like Java, my bio here:
    http://www.theserverside.com/articles/article.tss?l=RiA
    You can see where I mention the issues on classloader, that are fixed by 2 open source projects, but not yet Sun.

    Flaming people is a BBS tradition for decades. Plenty of people, Like S Zara do opposite of my comments, I am not Walter Cronkite. In any case:
    “Dear Mr. Sun Middle Management,
    I would like to retract my selecting Mr. Ho. Please put this in his HR file.
    .V

    Cuts are 3,000 software people we like go.
    Why should S Violet have to carry others?
    And why jump to conclusion of what I think of Mr. Ho’s skills or capabilities. He may be unlucky. I know smart people, educated that just get back luck on project. In fact, I am prepared to hire him away from Sun + 10%! Let me know.
    Unfortunately, BEA, IBM and Oracle my circle wagons(read on Eclipse). Or Sybase had this JComponent for years…. Finally the stoped selling it and did .NET
    http://www.sybase.com/products/internetappdevttools/datawindownet/features
    And here is what happens when you compete w/ lawyers and not developers:
    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1492533,00.asp :
    “So who's really behind SCO's actions? First and foremost, it's Canopy and SCO's current management. What really kicked it into gear though was Sun's early financial support. In short, SCO started the fire, Sun supplied the lighter fluid and Microsoft and Sun together are adding the firewood. “


    Can someone from Sun *please* comment on the “business” instead of personal flames please:
    JDNC doesn't quite match up to Flex. For one thing, JDNC requires a JRE on a client, where Flex (and Laszlo) only require the Flash player. The Flash player is a lot more ubiquitous than a decent JRE, and more importantly, it installs MUCH more cleanly and looks a lot nicer when it starts up
    Can we hear from M Alberts at the web conference on 3/1, he can comment on usability.

    We are all frustrated with in-ability to compete with .NET and Flash on a level table, so I am just venting, bitting at the cage. Here are more of the tech details: http://webstartfaq.com .

    I will repeat P Sales:
    “it boggles the mind why this is not being addressed.”

    Free as in free speech,
    .V
  22. I like Java and deployment.[ Go to top ]

    Flaming people is a BBS tradition for decades. Plenty of people, Like S Zara do opposite of my comments, I am not Walter Cronkite.
  23. I like Java and deployment.[ Go to top ]

    Flaming people is a BBS tradition for decades. Plenty of people, Like S Zara do opposite of my comments, I am not Walter Cronkite.

    You are confusing debate about ideas with personal attacks. Disagreeing with your point of view is not 'flaming'. Also, I have no idea why you are mentioning me here (or what Walter Cronkite has to do with anything).
  24. I like Java and deployment.[ Go to top ]

    JJ, are you w/ Sun?Do we have courage to try to help fix Java and make it more competitive? (this would help Sun! Execs said it's their strategy and we the users agree, so work from top and bottom)

    No I am not with Sun as I have told your before.
  25. Sun lays off software employees[ Go to top ]

    My personal opinion:
    SUN's development base will be shifted to INDIA soon. That's the only way SUN can survive. The boundaries are going to grow beyond the countries and in future the conflict will be between different group of people not based on nationality/religion etc, based on economic background & idealogies.
  26. Not necessarily India[ Go to top ]

    My personal opinion:SUN's development base will be shifted to INDIA soon. That's the only way SUN can survive. The boundaries are going to grow beyond the countries and in future the conflict will be between different group of people not based on nationality/religion etc, based on economic background &amp; idealogies.
    http://www.job.ru/entry.jsp?mode=queryVacById&submode=do&id=11185514
  27. In a way I agree with Vic[ Go to top ]

    Let me start by saying I like Sun, Solaris is my favorite OS. I love Java, and do 90% of my development in it (server side development only).

    I am amazed how big of a failure Applets (any to some extent any Java Desktop Application) have been. Part of my amazement at the fact that most people are not bothered by it, or even defend it. I do not know of even one major internet service that is based on Java Applets. As far as Java Desktop Application I can only think of 8 maybe 10 that have been successful (and half of those are Java IDE's). Oh yeah I guess there are a few games on Yahoo that are Java based.

    Is there a person or group that is causing this problem, which I think is the case. (I'm not going to back this up with examples or names, I don't think this is the place for that.) I'm not saying these people need to be fired, but the problem needs to be fixed! It is upsetting to the point where I can understand the fustration that leads Vic to make the comments he does.

    These people are not open source developers doing the community a favor. They are paid corporate developer/managers that are helping Sun drop the ball (yet again), and they need to get their act together, or get out of the way!
  28. whats the use?[ Go to top ]

    "They are paid corporate developer/managers that are helping Sun drop the ball (yet again), and they need to get their act together"

    You are unduly harsh. They only lost heart after Java support was dropped from Windows. There is a certain unthankful uphill feeling by fighting Microsoft don't you think so?

    (I am reminded of the English king who ordered his soldiers down to the shore to thrash the sea that had not complied with the Kings wish)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  29. whats the use?[ Go to top ]

    (I am reminded of the English king who ordered his soldiers down to the shore to thrash the sea that had not complied with the Kings wish)

    That is pretty damm funny. I'm not sure MS have done much better. The ActiveX security problems have scared many away, plus most of my projects require cross browser support.

    So far I have had the best luck with Flash. Now that ActionScript supports OO programing (mostly), and a real event model, I find myself more and more attracted to it.
  30. In a way I agree with Vic[ Go to top ]

    I do not know of even one major internet service that is based on Java Applets

    http://www.map24.com/

    Which other technology could pull that off?
  31. In a way I agree with Vic[ Go to top ]

    > I do not know of even one major internet service that is based on Java Appletshttp://www.map24.com/Which other technology could pull that off?

    I have a 5mb Cable Modem Internet connection.

    On my Desktop which is a 1ghz P3 with 256 mb or ram:
    - Entered my address and Clicked Next
    - Map up the first time but took just over 40 seconds to load.

    On my Desktop which is a 1.7ghz p4 with 1 gb of ram:
    - After 45 seconds it came up and told me I needed to install a java client. (I already had 1.3jre installed.)
    - Went to Suns site downloaded and installed 5.0jre, which took over 2 minutes.
    - Went back to the site enter my address and pressed next.
    - Map came up this time but took 30 seconds.

    *****Once the JRE is loaded and runing I can go back and brin up the map in under 10 seconds on both machines.

    First let me say I think they have written a very cool little app. I think the process to get it running when you don't have a jre (or the right jre) is too much. If my mom, sister, or brother had gone to this site (and they didn't have a working JRE already installed), they would have just left after the installer came up and started asking them questions.

    Seconds of the 40+ seconds it took to bring the map up on my second machine I think that 30 of that was just to get the JRE going. Too slow.. This leaves Flash as my only option. Flash VM loads in just 1 or 2 seconds on this same machine. Over the years the flash client has gotten faster and faster with each version. I have tested applets with each version of the VM and every version seems to be the same speed (slow).

    Look I'm not bringing this up because I think Java sucks, and I think we should use something else. I'm brining this up because I love java and I'm pissed that the JRE issues have all but killed applet development, and that is a loss for developers and internet users.
  32. In a way I agree with Vic[ Go to top ]

    I think one medium term solution to JRE loading delay is to have JRE running as a background service on the operational system. But that would require JREs to allow for multiuser support and apps running concurrently on one JRE session.

    You'll say I am dreaming, but the long term solution, IMO, is to improve Java to the point it becomes a operational system by itself. I say this after seeing how much of JREs "conflict" with operational system's duties, both are responsible for managing many resources in common (threads, memory, IO, etc.), and the commonalities grow for every new JRE version. There are already some open source projects aiming this.

    My I guess is .Net will become full OS much before Java, BTW.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  33. In a way I agree with Vic[ Go to top ]

    > I do not know of even one major internet service that is based on Java Applets

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. When Java first appeared both Microsoft and Netscape did their nwn JVM rather than licensing a plugin from Sun – which seemed like a great idea since it would be rather more quick then Sun having to develop them all. Unfortuantly MS never updated its JVM beyond Java 1.0 and successfully destroyed Netscape. And the JRE was a lot bigger to download than Flash which didn't help either. Compatiblity problems between the different JVM’S made applets a poor choice for web sites and Flash pretty much filled the hole. I doubt there was anything much Sun could have done about this given Microsoft's instant hostiliaty to Java. Flash was helped by the fact the Ms didn't see it as a serious threat until quite recently. But things for Java have improved. There are actually quite a lot of commercial applet based products around. Among the best I work with regularly are:
    BusienssObjects WebIntelligence (Worht having a look at the Flash demo for this - very prety!)
    Web Trends

    There are lots of examples of more specialised applications, such as browser based mainframe emulators, that are applet based (I used one of these very successfully on a project last year), and things like retail POS solutions and the like.

    Now that Sun has largely sorted out the problems with Microsoft to the tune of several billion, and has got around MS's refusal to include an up-to-date version of JRE with Windows by going direct to the manufactures (even the new Dells my company bought the other day had Java 1.4 on them) I think the future of Java on the desktop has not looked rosier for a while, and Sun has some pretty impressive statistics on other hardware – 750 million Java card devices, 579 million mobile phones etc.

    Whilst I don't want to imply that Sun gets everything right by any means (it took them a long time to realise how important the IDE market was going to be for instance) they have managed to consistently punch above their weight pretty much from day one, and they’ve got an impressive team of vendors around contributing now (everyone but Microsoft, as ever). I think the future is pretty bright for Java.
  34. In a way I agree with Vic[ Go to top ]

    I think the future is pretty bright for Java.

    I totally agree! I think Java has a bright future weather applets continue to fail or not.

    I'm not sure if I see your point on Microsoft affecting the JVM performance. What I mean by this is that the Browser/JRE speed is slow now. There is no excuse for that! Yes they have been dealing with the microsoft lawsuit, but that is a legal issue. It does not mean that you can let your product fall behind. It is not like the started developing the JRE last year when the lawsuite finished.

    **Keep in mind I'm not talking about Java as a whole. As a whole I think Java is first class.**
  35. Java w/o Client/Desktop side[ Go to top ]

    I think Java has a bright future weather applets (and JNLP/WebStart) continue to fail or not.

    Without Client/Desktop "side", Java is dead!

    If a tree falls and no one hears it.... we would not know there is Java. We only see grass, not the dirt under.
    On server side, PHP et all is kicking ass.
    .V
  36. Java w/o Client/Desktop side[ Go to top ]

    On server side, PHP et all is kicking ass..V

    Really? I would say PHP has kicked Perls ass, but I don't see the impact on Java. I started by programing in Perl and Java. Almost all the old Perl shops that I used to work with have gone PHP (except one to Java and one to Python). All the Java Shops I have worked with are still Java, none have switch to PHP. I have actually never met a Java developer who has switched to PHP for his/her primay application development.

    Seems like different sides of the fence to me: PHP, Perl, Pyton, Ruby are on one side, and Java, .NET are on the other. I have written a few little PHP apps. I think it is cool for the little stuff, but for large and/or corporate apps I don't see how it measures up?

    What experiences have you had to suggest that PHP is "kicking ass" over Java?
  37. Why I think p-langs kick ass:[ Go to top ]

    to suggest that PHP is "kicking ass" over Java?

    Here is a list of PHP Applications and some of them have thousands of reference sites.http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=139
    I would *LOVE* to say that Java is supperior emotionaly.

    I deployed some sites with Java but that is few.

    .V
  38. Why I think p-langs kick ass:[ Go to top ]

    Here is a list of PHP Applications and some of them have thousands of reference sites.http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=139I would *LOVE* to say that Java is supperior emotionaly.I deployed some sites with Java but that is few..V

    Not all applications on that list where PHP. 121 of them were PHP, 69 fo them were Java, 51 were ASP, and 9 were Python. Java actually did a lot better then I thought ;)

    I don't think Java is supperior. Java is supperior for most of the type of work that I do. It is always a matter of the right tool for the job. PHP is find of you are writing a web based application and you don't need: transactional support, clustering, ORM framework, MVC, etc...

    I'm not surprised to see more PHP then java, at least with respect to general web projects. It is easier to learn and faster to get something going, which makes it great for smaller projects.

    There is more VB code floating around then anything else, but that does not make it supperior. There is more VB because it is easy and you can wip small apps out quickly.
  39. Why I think p-langs kick ass:[ Go to top ]

    Thaks Matt, it make me feel better, I was runing out of excuses.
    .V